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Desert Dave, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Nice to have you here.

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Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to get to meet you.

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Been a fan of yours for a little while now, been watching your videos for a little while and

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appreciate what you're doing in the space. And it's a pleasure to get to have a chat with you

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today. Yeah, likewise. I mean, you have not officially been on the scene for that long,

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But I have appreciated those small videos that you did in fighting for BIP-110, which subsequently played out maybe not in the way we would have wanted, I'd say, to be diplomatic here.

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But we'll get into all that pretty soon.

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First of all, can you tell us a little about yourself since you haven't been on the show before?

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And I think most of my viewers may not know who you are.

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So who is Desert Dave?

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Yeah, so now I live out here kind of in the Sonoran Desert.

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I live off grid and I mine Bitcoin off of solar.

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Very small amount of Bitcoin.

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It's a passion project.

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It doesn't do much for me in the ways of bringing any wealth or anything.

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But I've been passionate about Bitcoin for quite a while.

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so it's kind of a big part of my life used to have a pretty successful electrical business up in

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phoenix and i kind of got tired of the grind got tired of that pressure um you know at the same

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time i was kind of learning about bitcoin and wanting to resist the fiat world so my bitcoin

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journey kind of you know coincided with coming out here and learning to be more self-sufficient

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being off grid and uh yeah i'm i'm all in in this space it's something i think about quite a bit

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and i feel like it fits um right in with wanting to be uh more self-sovereign live off grid

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and figure things out in a different way other than just kind of punching the clock and

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you know doing that thing yeah so so so when was this when did you choose to to leave the exit your

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fiat life so to speak and and go fully into self-sovereignty mode yeah um so in 2020 i actually

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left the city and it kind of happened in stages i moved out of the city and i moved to a little

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tiny town, bought a little piece of property. And then after a couple of years, I realized that

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wasn't removed enough. So then I moved again in 2022. That was when I first kind of went off grid.

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Same thing. I was there for a couple of years and realized that I was still just a little too close

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to people. And we wanted more property. We just wanted something a little better. Ended up down

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here in Cochise County because they have an opt-out building structure down here so you can

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really do what you want to on your property. Ended up in this spot in 2024 or 2023 maybe. So yeah I

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want to say we've been here like two and a half years. So yeah it's been a process of getting more

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and more removed from the fiat world I would say. More and more removed from general population.

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and there's like no one out here for miles.

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It's pretty wild.

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Luckily, I can get enough of a signal out here to do this with you.

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Nice.

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Cochise, that's a Native American tribe, right?

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I think so, yeah.

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Yeah, this area, this county is like,

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it's down in southern Arizona,

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and I want to say it's like the last part of the country

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to become part of the United States.

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So it's very, we're like right next to the Mexican border.

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The town down here is very, a lot of Mexican culture.

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It's like barely being in America, but fits me well.

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That's cool.

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Yeah, I'd love to see those places one day.

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So far, I've only been to the East Coast.

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And now this summer, I was in Michigan for two weeks

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and drove around a little there in Michigan and Ohio.

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And saw a bit more of the U.S. than I've seen before.

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And yeah, I enjoy being in the U.S.

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And I enjoy Americans being more, I'd say, more direct and more open than Europeans, I think, in a sense.

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In casual conversations, when you just meet people on the street and in gas stations and such.

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yeah i could yeah i like america you know i think no matter where we go there's a bit of a

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grass could be green on the other side type of thing but anytime i travel i find that i'm happy

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to get home and arizona in particular the southwest is particularly freedom-minded i would say you know

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So, you know, we're cowboys out here.

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Yeah.

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And, okay, so you did the deep dive into Bitcoin then around 2020, I guess.

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Actually, I started kind of getting into it in 2017.

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So they happened kind of in parallel.

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But, yeah, I definitely started mining in like 2018.

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But, you know, you know how it is.

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Bitcoin is a deep journey.

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So I've been kind of deep diving the whole time and learning as I go.

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Yeah, I know precisely what you mean.

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And so were you participating in the block size wars or were you there when they happened?

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Were you there to like, what was your role in that time, if any, or did you watch from afar, so to speak?

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Yeah, I was definitely there observing it.

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I was very new to the space at the time, so I didn't have a lot of information.

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I didn't have a lot of experience to draw on.

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I was pretty clueless about what a lot of the stuff meant.

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I was definitely navigating it mostly kind of how I'm navigating this.

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A lot of it is just through intuition and looking at the personalities and seeing what made most sense to me,

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even though I didn't have a deep technical knowledge.

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But I was definitely, for me, like in that particular, whatever you want to call it, that little civil war, like to me, it was very clear that Bitcoin was the thing I was going to hold on to.

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But I had the opportunity to get my coin split and went and sold the Bcash on exchange right away.

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And that was pretty cool.

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But I was pretty new to the space at the time.

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So I was observing, but I wouldn't say I knew much about what was going on.

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similar to my story i mean i had been in it for a couple of years then but i i like my the first

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article i wrote that got any any kind of spin online is one about how to how to get access to

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your home private keys because i wanted to sell the fork my myself so i needed to read up on it

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and i i figured i might just might as well just write an article about how to do that

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so yeah and I definitely have a memory a picture of how that played out and it's sort of

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it's the event that made me

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made me passionate about Bitcoin instead of just curious about it I'd say because

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it sort of confirmed that that all its promises were true but that's how I saw it that

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this thing is actually decentralized and the plebs are actually in charge and not the big

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companies. And I just loved that that's how it played out. Is that how you remember it too?

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Yeah, it felt really exciting. And I would say my passion, my dedication, whatever you want to say,

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My conviction on Bitcoin has kind of grown pretty steadily,

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but that was definitely eye-opening.

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It was so cool to,

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one of the cool things about when something like this happens

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is it causes people to consider self, you know, self-storage

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and, oh, the split's going to happen.

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How do I need to prepare?

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What does that mean about keeping my coins on exchange You know it definitely you know these things are always if nothing else they great to learn from And that definitely played a big role in helping me understand Bitcoin

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Yeah, I remember also around the same time when Niklas Doria of BTC Pay server,

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that wasn't really a thing yet then, but told, I think it's a BitPay guy that my trust in you is

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broken. It sort of coincided all of these things that these centralized entities like BitPay and

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the big mining companies and big Bitcoin back then, so to speak, that we were sort of giving

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the middle finger to them or I guess not you and me specifically, but a lot of people were.

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And to me, the block size wars, like the Bcash was always a takeover attempt.

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That's what it looked like to me, since they wanted to increase the block size.

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And it was obvious to me that that would make running a node more expensive.

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And therefore, you would centralize Bitcoin and centralizing Bitcoin is never a good idea.

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If it's costlier to run a node, then you sacrifice the golden goose for a chocolate egg.

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And it's not what Bitcoin is all about.

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So that's how I remember that and why I've been so passionate about Bitcoin since.

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So from that to the recent fork, I mean, you started releasing these videos.

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When was that?

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Like back in June or July or something?

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Or was it even earlier?

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Yeah, I want to say the first video I put out on the YouTube channel,

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I literally had an I've never like I had a gmail that was just sitting there I don't typically use

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log into gmail or anything and I just kind of on a whim put up a video and I want to say it was

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about a month and a half ago but beyond that I mean I've been in this fight if you want to call

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it that for a long time I've been mining with the ocean for a long time I've been a fan of what loop

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has been working on I've been running knots for quite a while I've been paying attention for quite

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a while it just um on that day you know something told me to like to get on my phone and record a

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video it was completely on a whim and yeah I decided to start talking about it and it seemed

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to resonate with some people and it got a little bit of traction so um I'm not necessarily someone

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who wanted to show my face on video and everything so that was kind of a uh a challenging thing at

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first, but people have encouraged me to keep coming back and having conversations. And right

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now there's so few of us that kind of hold the viewpoint that I do. So I feel like I want to

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keep talking about it. And I love having these types of conversations with someone like you that

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I have respect for, but maybe we're not quite on the same page so that we can hopefully understand

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each other a little better and help others that are watching to consider what, you know, what they

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feel is the right thing for them.

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Yeah, I think that's where you find truth.

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When you have an honest conversation with someone you agree with to like a 90% degree,

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and then maybe you have a slightly different view about the last 10%, and that's where

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you will obviously learn something.

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At least one of you will learn something, and that's if you have an open mind.

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So I love this Terry Pratchett quote that the problem with an open mind is that people will come along and try to put stuff in it.

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Which is why I think an open mind is only useful as long as you're intellectually honest.

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Otherwise, it's just susceptible to everything.

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so you you got to be honest with yourself and that's the most and others and that's the most

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important thing and i honestly believed that bip 110 was a good idea i i did not honestly

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i hoped it would go through and i i uh i i honestly believed it was a good idea to try to

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push it through because I thought it was such a small fork and obviously only bad actors

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would be against it sort of thing. And I still believe that. I didn't make too many predictions

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about the plausibility of this actually going through or not. I know other people in what

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used to be our camp, which now seems to be splitting in two also, did. But what was your

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reason for choosing NOTS and subsequently BIP 110-2? What was the main reason for you?

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Yeah. So like I said, I've been kind of paying attention. I had a friend in the space that

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informed me about Ocean and what was happening with that. The first time I went to run a node,

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I just kind of heard that there were two options. So I've been curious about this stuff for quite a

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while. So I've probably been running NOTS for a few years now. And I think at the beginning,

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I just, something felt good about it. I liked that it was an alternative option. I liked that

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there was more options. It felt like it was more configurable. You know, I didn't know a whole lot

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about the ethos behind it, but something about it just kind of felt right. So I've been kind of in

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that camp for a long time, even before there were like camps, you know, before we realized that

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there were weird things happening at core. But I would say, you know, the core V30 stuff

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really was eye opening. Like to me, that's when I really started paying attention and being like,

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oh like something needs to happen here and at this point it's all a blur like I can't believe

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some of this stuff has been going on as long as it has been because it kind of just feels like

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you know pre-BIP 110 everything was fine and then there was BIP 110 proposal and now we're here

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but I know it's been you know there's been a lot more that's happened so it's hard to say exactly

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what it was but I've only you know it's been years that I've been kind of drawn and paying

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attention to what Luke was saying. I've been following Matthew Crowder for quite a while.

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And he seems to, you know, be doing a pretty good job of doing his best to educate people. I

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have a good amount of faith in his research and things he talks about. So yeah, it's hard to say

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exactly when, but when the V30 stuff came up, like that's when it really felt like, that's when I

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think it was like, oh, wow, there's like actually an attack happening versus like, maybe this option

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isn't as good as not. It was more like, oh, there's actually something happening here that

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we need to be proactive about. And I think that's when I really started kind of dialing in and paying

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attention more. And yeah, and then I was like, oh, I want to be running two or three nodes to

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counteract this thing, you know. And then I started kind of doing everything I could to be

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more proactive. And yeah, like you, I kind of thought it would go through. I think most of us

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It was kind of in the back of my mind that we might end up here.

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And for me, this kind of, it was always the way also this was just following through.

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But yeah, I don't know if that answers the core of your question, but it was a process

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and the core of the V30 stuff really started to highlight things for me.

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Yeah, and the V30 thing is the thing that triggered the suggestion to even do a soft fork.

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So I think this is what people need to remember when we study this fight in the future, regardless of which side turns out to be Bitcoin 50 years from now.

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is that our side told the core side that if you do this upgrade, V30,

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or even before that, even when that was suggested,

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we said that remove this from V30 or we will, at V30's release,

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if this is in there, this mempool policy change,

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the softer rule than a consensus rule but still an obviously catering to the needs of shitcoiners type of change We will propose and try to push through a soft fork but they chose to do that

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anyway, which is interesting to me because I think that I don't necessarily buy that that is

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simply because they were nefarious.

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Because I think you have, in Bitcoin,

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you have your people with technical knowledge

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and knowledge of computer networks,

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and you have your people with economics knowledge

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or economically literate, as Kansa likes to say.

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I happen to like that term.

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I know Chris Guida doesn't like it.

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But ideally, for me, the perfect Bitcoiner

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is in the middle of that Venn diagram,

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in the intersection of that Venn diagram

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between economic knowledge,

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economic literacy and knowledge about computers

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and code and stuff like that.

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So I think the core developers I've met

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have been much more technical than economically,

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technically competent than economically literate.

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And I think this might be their blind spot

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that they don't see sometimes that actions have consequences.

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And it might be something might look good on paper,

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which I do believe that the core developers did think

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that this suggestion to remove that filter looked good on paper.

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I don't think they were insincere in believing that.

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And technically, from a certain viewpoint, it might have even been correct because it might have been the way I understand their thinking is that if people are going to spam anyway, so they might as well use this bigger waste paper basket that we're providing them with.

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And I think most core developers thought that that was a, because we're doing that, we're actually reducing damage to the chain and making Bitcoin better, even better money.

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where i where i personally think that thinking is flawed is first that i don't think uh a bigger

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waste paper basket will do anything since it's still cheaper to spam using other methods than

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putting something in op return and i but first and foremost i think they underestimated

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losing such a big chunk of the entire network

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by imposing a change that was so

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unpopular. So they didn't weigh in

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the consequences of their actions in the decision

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to make this policy change.

221
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And also that it was so blatant that it was catering

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to the needs of shitcoiners. We know the

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the meeting with the Citria people and all of this stuff.

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The Citria wanted this change, pushed through this change.

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And there's been a lot of rot in core for a long time

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as Hodlnots articles have fleshed out

227
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and how the woke creep has come in there.

228
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And there's probably a more left-leaning political...

229
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the core developers are probably much more left-leaning in their political views than

230
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your average pleb who likes his pickup truck and his shotgun you know and there's a discrepancy

231
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there the thing I never the argument I never really bought on our side is the CSAM one

232
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because I don't think there's a judge in the world

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who will care if a naughty picture is in an op return

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or somewhere else on chain,

235
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because you can still do that.

236
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To my node, since my node does not have a video renderer

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or a picture reader,

238
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all the shit data are just the same.

239
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It's just shit data.

240
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I need some other software to interpret it as something else.

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So I don't really care about that.

242
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And that's my honest opinion.

243
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The thing I did care about was the taproot exploit.

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So the 99.98% of op-ifs not even being executable, that to me was a bigger problem.

245
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Because these developers seem to be very horny for making Bitcoin programmable in every possible way.

246
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And I don't think programmability is what makes it special, rather the opposite, like that it's hard to change and that it's not very programmable.

247
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That's what makes Bitcoin great.

248
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And so I was more for it for that reason.

249
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Of course, I saw the uncapped op return as very unnecessary because I never understood why anyone would need an op return bigger than 43 bytes anyway, because you can put a hash in it when it's small and thereby refer to any document.

250
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because if you know the nature of the time chain and the nature of data,

251
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like the only thing you can do by putting other data on chain

252
00:23:05,380 --> 00:23:08,960
is prove that that data existed at that point.

253
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And you can do that with a hash.

254
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You can't own information.

255
00:23:13,140 --> 00:23:14,040
This is all bullshit.

256
00:23:14,180 --> 00:23:18,880
So to me, it's obvious that this would only be used by scammers.

257
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and the thing I was upset about was that Bitcoin core people seem to care about what the scammers

258
00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:31,980
wanted all of a sudden and being welcoming to them instead of being hostile to them which they

259
00:23:31,980 --> 00:23:37,780
it should have been their main job to be hostile to scammers because we don't want them in Bitcoin

260
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Bitcoin is not for everyone it's for anyone and it's its purpose is being money and other use

261
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:52,440
cases leak value from it they don't add value to it like uh and they're not legitimate in the first

262
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place because you can't own data so there's there's a lot to that but that's that's just to give you a

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a background of why i was pro the the soft fork i i view it viewed it as a mechanic said like a

264
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milk chocolate soft fork that did very little and was obviously only going to be opposed by by

265
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shady people. So yeah, I keep repeating the same question here, but let's dissect that for a while

266
00:24:23,261 --> 00:24:27,880
then instead. So what parts of that do you agree with and what do you disagree with?

267
00:24:28,660 --> 00:24:37,300
Yeah, so I think obviously I was in agreement with BIP110. It seemed to me like it was a good

268
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changed, introduced to Bitcoin. I think where we differ on opinion a little bit maybe is that

269
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I believe there was an actual attack. And that doesn't mean that any one bad actor in Bitcoin

270
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core exists. I just think it's a lot like our political system. I'm not of the opinion that

271
00:24:59,420 --> 00:25:06,021
it really matters much if I vote. I don't have a dog in the race. To me, it's the same stuff

272
00:25:06,021 --> 00:25:10,420
behind the scenes and we're just presented with two options and that's how i see this it's like

273
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that's not to say everyone who goes into politics is bad it's not to say that everyone up on a

274
00:25:16,620 --> 00:25:22,841
podium trying to do to fight the good fight has a bad intention i just feel like they're part of a

275
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broken thing right and so to me core just seems broken like there's so much um there's financial

276
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incentive there that doesn't exist elsewhere in Bitcoin. And there's developers, like you said,

277
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you know, one way of looking at it is the economic knowledge and their technical knowledge.

278
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There's also just like, what life experience do they have? Have they had enough life experience

279
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to understand why Bitcoin is important as money? Someone can say they agree that, oh, like,

280
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V30 is the best thing for money that doesn make them right right They could believe they right they could feel completely good in their opinion And in their reality they can be right Like I don want to sit here

281
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and say what's right and wrong necessarily.

282
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It's just for me,

283
00:26:12,531 --> 00:26:15,331
I've always been kind of a Puritan in that sense.

284
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I think Bitcoin in its simplest form,

285
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it's very elegant as it is.

286
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I think messing with it at as little as possible is the way.

287
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And I saw this as just taking Bitcoin

288
00:26:27,031 --> 00:26:32,891
back to what we wanted it to be steps you know in that direction kind of like house cleaning

289
00:26:32,891 --> 00:26:38,491
spring cleaning you know it's like oh taproot some of the stuff like we hasn't been addressed

290
00:26:38,491 --> 00:26:46,551
here's an opportunity let's fix this up and to me the establishment of bitcoin now is bitcoin core

291
00:26:46,551 --> 00:26:51,591
and now we've learned to me like the mining pools are kind of part of that establishment

292
00:26:51,591 --> 00:27:00,511
and um yeah i you know so for me in the back of my mind i i wanted bit 110 to go through um

293
00:27:00,511 --> 00:27:06,831
smoothly but i think kind of the trickster like there's an aspect of me that's very fiery and

294
00:27:06,831 --> 00:27:12,651
likes to things to see things get crazy there's kind of part of me that was like you know i've

295
00:27:12,651 --> 00:27:17,711
deleted a lot of my videos because i'm kind of like that but at the time i put out some videos

296
00:27:17,711 --> 00:27:22,151
saying like bitcoin could go to zero i don't care you know i was kind of saying if we need the fork

297
00:27:22,151 --> 00:27:27,611
that's fine and that's how i felt you know leading up to it it was weird because i was like i was

298
00:27:27,611 --> 00:27:32,911
nervous and i wanted this thing to happen but there was like kind of a uh a deeper part of me

299
00:27:32,911 --> 00:27:38,231
that was like yeah but if it doesn't happen that's exciting like where do we go from there well you

300
00:27:38,231 --> 00:27:44,431
know then shit really hits the fan um and that could be really interesting but yeah i i i saw

301
00:27:44,431 --> 00:27:50,951
the the you know when it didn't get activated i was watching right up until the last minute you

302
00:27:50,951 --> 00:27:55,291
know watching live thinking kind of like a lot of us that just last minute minors would start

303
00:27:55,291 --> 00:28:01,811
switching over and when it didn't happen you know my heart fell and then like pretty quickly i felt

304
00:28:01,811 --> 00:28:09,371
kind of like i feel lighter than i've ever felt right now like i'm so i feel so refreshed and uh

305
00:28:09,371 --> 00:28:15,051
renewed in my, you know, because some of us that have been around a while, it's like it's been since

306
00:28:15,051 --> 00:28:20,751
2017 that we're like, Bitcoin is going to be a million by 2020 or, you know, we're looking at all

307
00:28:20,751 --> 00:28:25,331
these factors and it's like, oh, there's so limited supply. How could the price not go outrageous? How

308
00:28:25,331 --> 00:28:30,871
can hyper Bitcoinization not be in the near future? And then to have it feel like it's stretching on

309
00:28:30,871 --> 00:28:36,231
and on and kind of feeling like we've been through the same song and dance over and over again,

310
00:28:36,231 --> 00:28:40,151
I'm tired of people just caring about the number go up and stuff.

311
00:28:40,491 --> 00:28:42,691
So, yeah, so I was pretty broken up.

312
00:28:42,891 --> 00:28:46,471
And then also part of me was like, hey, like now this is exciting.

313
00:28:48,211 --> 00:28:49,811
And yeah, I don't know.

314
00:28:49,871 --> 00:28:51,931
I can't think of a more exciting time in Bitcoin.

315
00:28:52,391 --> 00:28:54,331
And I'm not sure how that feels.

316
00:28:54,331 --> 00:29:02,711
If you're not feeling the fork, I would feel kind of like, well, what do we do now?

317
00:29:03,271 --> 00:29:05,291
And I guess I'm kind of curious to hear from you.

318
00:29:05,291 --> 00:29:12,311
like you know if you're not going that way like where's your where's your hope or whatever because

319
00:29:12,311 --> 00:29:17,891
to me like bit 110 was signal like for that to succeed would say okay the miners aren't in control

320
00:29:17,891 --> 00:29:24,091
nodes still control the network bitcoin solid and getting uh getting a response back that that was

321
00:29:24,091 --> 00:29:34,211
a negative to me was like oh bitcoin's pretty broke yeah that's uh uh yeah there's a lot to be

322
00:29:34,211 --> 00:29:42,731
said about that of course uh bit bit 110 coming through would would have been sort of sort of a

323
00:29:42,731 --> 00:29:48,391
confirmation that the nodes were in charge i i think the opposite the the bit 110 not pulling

324
00:29:48,391 --> 00:29:55,251
through was not proof of the opposite though and this is where i differ from uh from i guess i guess

325
00:29:55,251 --> 00:30:01,611
from you and and from a lot of other people on the bit 110 side i i i said before the fork because

326
00:30:01,611 --> 00:30:07,511
a lot of people ask me, will you hard fork if it fails? And I said, that depends. That depends

327
00:30:07,511 --> 00:30:15,191
on how this thing plays out. And I will not decide on what I'll do until after it plays out.

328
00:30:15,491 --> 00:30:21,691
But I guess just a small question before I lay out more about my views on that. Like,

329
00:30:22,031 --> 00:30:27,191
you were always prepared to hard fork then in leading up to this thing.

330
00:30:27,191 --> 00:30:33,971
yeah definitely to me that's just the follow through to me the bit 110 was like a proposal

331
00:30:33,971 --> 00:30:39,691
and forking to me without forking it's like well what was even the point of that

332
00:30:39,691 --> 00:30:45,571
you know we ran an experiment to know what the next step was and to me it was like okay we ran

333
00:30:45,571 --> 00:30:52,331
the experiment it went the way it did forking bitcoin one that's one way of saying it to me

334
00:30:52,331 --> 00:30:57,991
this is Bitcoin. This is Bitcoin living on. Bitcoin is the community. It's the core community

335
00:30:57,991 --> 00:31:02,991
of people that will fight for Bitcoin as money no matter what. And there may not be a ton of us,

336
00:31:03,051 --> 00:31:09,751
but to me, that's always been the fight. And so I was 100% ready to go with the fork.

337
00:31:10,611 --> 00:31:18,631
Yeah, I was not. But I absolutely respect that opinion. And I respect your right to do so more

338
00:31:18,631 --> 00:31:24,031
than anything. I came up with a quote in a tweet and a reply to Joe Nakamoto today when he was

339
00:31:24,031 --> 00:31:31,951
bashing Cratter that I will respect your right. I don't agree with your Bitcoin fork proposal,

340
00:31:31,951 --> 00:31:38,351
but I will fight to the death for your right to fork it. It's paraphrasing.

341
00:31:40,251 --> 00:31:46,471
Because I think that's the most fundamental thing in Bitcoin is that no one gets to say what Bitcoin

342
00:31:46,471 --> 00:31:52,831
is, you get to say what it is to you, and you get to set the rules of your money. That's the whole

343
00:31:52,831 --> 00:31:58,751
point of running a node and validating the incoming transactions. That is that you decide the rules of

344
00:31:58,751 --> 00:32:05,531
your money. It's just that the system is set up in such a way that it can be very costly to follow

345
00:32:05,531 --> 00:32:13,171
rules that not everyone else agrees to. So, okay, let's do this in stages. First of all,

346
00:32:13,171 --> 00:32:20,751
why I don't think BIP-110 failing is necessarily proof of a lack of decentralization.

347
00:32:21,911 --> 00:32:27,151
So the theory was that as long as we get one domino to fall,

348
00:32:27,591 --> 00:32:31,091
we will have this prisoner's dilemma type scenario,

349
00:32:31,751 --> 00:32:34,031
the red button, blue button thing.

350
00:32:34,151 --> 00:32:37,451
I don't know if you remember that allegory.

351
00:32:37,451 --> 00:32:40,931
so basically

352
00:32:40,931 --> 00:32:42,971
if you have a blue button and if

353
00:32:42,971 --> 00:32:45,111
more than 50% or in this

354
00:32:45,111 --> 00:32:46,811
case 55% of

355
00:32:46,811 --> 00:32:49,151
people press that

356
00:32:49,151 --> 00:32:50,691
button then everyone survives

357
00:32:50,691 --> 00:32:53,091
and you have a red button and

358
00:32:53,091 --> 00:32:55,011
if

359
00:32:55,011 --> 00:32:56,751
people press the red button

360
00:32:56,751 --> 00:32:59,051
then only

361
00:32:59,051 --> 00:33:00,891
the people who press the red button survive

362
00:33:00,891 --> 00:33:02,511
regardless of percentage

363
00:33:02,511 --> 00:33:04,571
and in this case

364
00:33:04,571 --> 00:33:05,451
it would be

365
00:33:05,451 --> 00:33:09,531
only like between

366
00:33:09,531 --> 00:33:12,671
what was it, like 2.5%

367
00:33:12,671 --> 00:33:14,951
of miners pressed the blue button

368
00:33:14,951 --> 00:33:16,731
even though 15% of

369
00:33:16,731 --> 00:33:20,191
nodes pressed the blue button

370
00:33:20,191 --> 00:33:22,231
everyone else pressed the red button

371
00:33:22,231 --> 00:33:24,191
and they all survived in that

372
00:33:24,191 --> 00:33:26,551
so I think

373
00:33:26,551 --> 00:33:28,531
when you're a miner and you have to make

374
00:33:28,531 --> 00:33:29,811
this decision, which

375
00:33:29,811 --> 00:33:32,611
because it can be very costly to make the wrong decision

376
00:33:32,611 --> 00:33:34,671
you have to take into

377
00:33:34,671 --> 00:33:38,951
into consideration what button will the others press

378
00:33:38,951 --> 00:33:42,831
and what do I stand to lose from pressing the wrong button.

379
00:33:42,831 --> 00:33:46,391
And if they think that there's a risk

380
00:33:46,391 --> 00:33:48,431
that another miner will press the blue button,

381
00:33:48,431 --> 00:33:50,191
then they might as well press the blue button

382
00:33:50,191 --> 00:33:52,511
and you get this sort of domino effect

383
00:33:52,511 --> 00:33:54,931
and BIP110 activates.

384
00:33:57,511 --> 00:33:59,731
I think they have to weigh in

385
00:34:00,731 --> 00:34:04,551
and they see this 15% of nodes signaling for this.

386
00:34:04,671 --> 00:34:19,530
But they also know, like the miners know that most of these nodes, if we're honest with ourselves here, you know, we kept saying that Start9 and Umbrell saw record sales numbers leading up to this.

387
00:34:20,111 --> 00:34:26,411
Most of new nodes were bought for this specific purpose to fire them up and signal for BIP110.

388
00:34:27,030 --> 00:34:31,891
However, most of those probably didn't have any incoming transactions.

389
00:34:31,891 --> 00:34:38,731
So the miners had very little to lose from ignoring them.

390
00:34:39,091 --> 00:34:43,131
Because the only thing a miner theoretically cares about is...

391
00:34:43,161 --> 00:34:47,801
losing the fees from those transactions that would have potentially gone through those nodes.

392
00:34:48,601 --> 00:34:57,321
So they think that the entire movement now that the subsection of BIP1 tenors that are now willing

393
00:34:57,321 --> 00:35:06,841
to fork off, they are of such economic insignificance to them. So it was better to just

394
00:35:06,841 --> 00:35:14,221
keep going with what Core said. And that decision, if I was a miner and fiat minded, which I think

395
00:35:14,221 --> 00:35:22,821
these big miners are, then that decision, it's mostly an economic decision, but it's not only

396
00:35:22,821 --> 00:35:32,461
between do I want all Bitcoiners to be with me or do I care about this subset or not? It's also,

397
00:35:32,461 --> 00:35:38,701
do I care about pissing off certain people that were, uh, that I have business relationships

398
00:35:38,701 --> 00:35:46,701
with that are, that were against the fork. So if you wanted Michael Saylor on your side in the

399
00:35:46,701 --> 00:35:53,241
future to make an investment in your, in your mining company or whatever, then, uh, you'd better,

400
00:35:53,241 --> 00:36:02,001
you know, uh, agree with him, um, about the fork. So, so, and you can call that corruption

401
00:36:02,001 --> 00:36:12,061
I think it's not 100% corruption. I think it's a rational economic decision that has to be made, and these incentives are at play.

402
00:36:12,061 --> 00:36:22,261
And so the question becomes, were they completely corrupt and did someone pay them to not signal?

403
00:36:23,061 --> 00:36:25,721
In other words, did someone pay them to not signal?

404
00:36:26,621 --> 00:36:38,181
Or did they simply see our movement as too economically insignificant for them to have to care about us at all?

405
00:36:38,441 --> 00:36:39,781
And I think the latter is true.

406
00:36:39,781 --> 00:36:45,201
I think they thought that we were so small, so we're not worth being cared about at all.

407
00:36:47,401 --> 00:36:53,201
And price-wise, I mean, Bitcoin is up, what is it, like 20% cents?

408
00:36:54,101 --> 00:37:00,261
So I think to a certain extent, at least short-term, and remember, these are short-term thinkers.

409
00:37:00,401 --> 00:37:01,841
These are high-time preference people.

410
00:37:01,961 --> 00:37:03,541
They are fiat-minded miners.

411
00:37:04,501 --> 00:37:07,561
Short-term, they were right from that perspective.

412
00:37:07,561 --> 00:37:16,361
so so uh and the thing yeah i'm talking too much here i should be interviewing you but i find this

413
00:37:16,361 --> 00:37:21,621
so interesting and i think i need to flesh out my position here because i think there's a reverse

414
00:37:21,621 --> 00:37:29,481
blue button red button scenario going on right now and that is uh if we all stay and there is no

415
00:37:29,481 --> 00:37:35,681
if there is no blake to be but we all stay in bitcoin then bitcoin is actually more secure now

416
00:37:35,681 --> 00:37:37,501
than it was before our movement started.

417
00:37:37,721 --> 00:37:40,421
Because we're all here and we're ready for the next fight,

418
00:37:40,501 --> 00:37:44,641
which might be more crucial and more important to save Bitcoin.

419
00:37:44,641 --> 00:37:46,961
But since we're now forking off,

420
00:37:47,181 --> 00:37:50,601
we're losing this chance of making Bitcoin more resilient

421
00:37:50,601 --> 00:37:56,801
than it was at least since Core V30 was introduced.

422
00:37:57,561 --> 00:38:05,241
So we can make a better Bitcoin post-Core 30

423
00:38:05,241 --> 00:38:13,201
if we stay or we can fork off and and and try this other thing which i and this is the other

424
00:38:13,201 --> 00:38:20,501
point i have i think lake to be is doomed because it's by definition centralized uh

425
00:38:20,501 --> 00:38:31,441
it's uh it has a clear founder and and who is not an anonymous guy who who forked off who who

426
00:38:31,441 --> 00:38:39,601
disappeared. But it's Luke. Luke is the head chef of this thing. There's no denying that.

427
00:38:40,701 --> 00:38:46,101
And as much as I like Luke, and I understand that all of these things make sense from Luke's

428
00:38:46,101 --> 00:38:51,641
perspective, I think this is the Achilles heel and his blind spot that he doesn't see himself

429
00:38:51,641 --> 00:38:59,341
as a centralizing force. But I think he definitely is for this fork. And also given the history of

430
00:38:59,341 --> 00:39:06,301
other Bitcoin forks like this and how they struggle to survive in the long run because we can't have

431
00:39:06,301 --> 00:39:12,661
42 million coins that defeats the entire point that can only be one Bitcoin in the end. One side

432
00:39:12,661 --> 00:39:18,681
has to win. Otherwise, it's not Bitcoin anymore. It's a Bitcoin and a shitcoin. And the question

433
00:39:18,681 --> 00:39:27,161
is then, where is my time and energy best spent in trying to save the thing that is

434
00:39:27,161 --> 00:39:34,701
still functioning as money, even though it has a spam problem clearly, and it has a

435
00:39:34,701 --> 00:39:40,521
corruption problem. Well, I shouldn't say corruption, but a woke creep problem,

436
00:39:40,521 --> 00:39:47,101
because corruption, it might be too strong of a word and offend some people. So an incentive

437
00:39:47,101 --> 00:39:56,701
problem in how the developers are funded, definitely. Can we solve this? Is this

438
00:39:56,701 --> 00:40:04,301
salvageable from the inside or do we just move on and hop onto this other ship where people are

439
00:40:04,301 --> 00:40:15,161
seemingly more based, like yourself and many of my friends, and they are more aligned with how I

440
00:40:15,161 --> 00:40:23,261
view the world generally and more aligned with my beliefs. I mean, I'm not a Christian.

441
00:40:23,261 --> 00:40:28,401
I'm way more of a skeptic than many of the others in this movement.

442
00:40:28,721 --> 00:40:35,941
But other than that, I think we have very similar views on ethics and morals and stuff.

443
00:40:35,941 --> 00:40:47,261
I think Hoppian argumentation ethics are enough for science to derive an ought not from an is, which is don't steal.

444
00:40:47,261 --> 00:41:00,861
And therefore, you can deductively reason yourself to the position that Bitcoin has to be money, needs to be money to survive.

445
00:41:01,661 --> 00:41:16,101
And I just don't think this new fork has any chance of gaining the momentum Bitcoin already has.

446
00:41:16,101 --> 00:41:21,481
I think my my energy is better spent trying to save the thing.

447
00:41:21,641 --> 00:41:23,981
The thing I fell in love with.

448
00:41:23,981 --> 00:41:24,981
Yeah.

449
00:41:24,981 --> 00:41:25,981
Thoughts?

450
00:41:25,981 --> 00:41:26,901
Yeah.

451
00:41:26,901 --> 00:41:30,601
So, you know, I definitely understand your perspective on stuff.

452
00:41:30,601 --> 00:41:33,101
And again, I don't think there's a right or wrong.

453
00:41:33,101 --> 00:41:35,561
I kind of disagree in a sense that there can't be.

454
00:41:35,561 --> 00:41:39,261
I mean, at least for a good amount of time, there's going to be a bunch of cryptos

455
00:41:39,261 --> 00:41:43,401
and forks and things that people consider, you know,

456
00:41:43,401 --> 00:41:45,781
oh, this is going to be the money of the world or like,

457
00:41:46,101 --> 00:41:52,241
To me, what it's called, you know, that's something people are like, oh, what are you guys even going to call it?

458
00:41:52,241 --> 00:41:55,321
And then there's concern of how do we become the real Bitcoin?

459
00:41:55,581 --> 00:41:56,181
How do we get people?

460
00:41:56,221 --> 00:41:57,741
I don't care about any of that.

461
00:41:57,941 --> 00:42:04,261
And I don't care whether the miners were actively captured or the cultures just slipped way out of alignment.

462
00:42:04,261 --> 00:42:06,621
To me, that's the key, right?

463
00:42:06,861 --> 00:42:08,881
The culture is gone.

464
00:42:09,601 --> 00:42:13,721
The Bitcoin culture, what Bitcoin is, is separation of money and state.

465
00:42:13,721 --> 00:42:19,541
what Bitcoin that we know it as right now is number go up technology. That's all anyone talks

466
00:42:19,541 --> 00:42:24,541
about. I'm so tired of hearing it. You know, the fact that there was this little bounce after that,

467
00:42:24,541 --> 00:42:32,061
like, I do not, I don't, I don't care about that aspect. So to me, it's a matter and I get that I'm

468
00:42:32,061 --> 00:42:38,261
an idealist. I get that I'm like standing, you know, firm in my principles. And that may be,

469
00:42:38,261 --> 00:42:44,961
that may be stupid or whatever but I'm not in this to be right I'm in this to be I'm in this

470
00:42:44,961 --> 00:42:51,821
to follow what feels right to me right and so for me if I see two hammers one of them's got all

471
00:42:51,821 --> 00:42:57,721
these gimmicks on it and everyone calls it a real hammer but this one actually puts in nails I'm

472
00:42:57,721 --> 00:43:02,541
gonna choose the one that actually puts in nails and trust that eventually well people will see the

473
00:43:02,541 --> 00:43:07,701
value in this. This one maybe has a touch screen and it has apps or whatever, but it doesn't.

474
00:43:08,221 --> 00:43:13,821
You know, like I think the best tool for the job, if Bitcoin wins because it's popular and Michael

475
00:43:13,821 --> 00:43:30,011
Saylor says it good then it not Bitcoin Like this Bitcoin that we known for a long time has gone so far off of the rails And it not just since v30 this has been a long time coming and to me you know infiltrating core and doing what they did

476
00:43:30,011 --> 00:43:35,831
is brilliant i mean because it's so uh sly and roundabout most people were unaware of it

477
00:43:35,831 --> 00:43:40,011
even running a node they're just like what do we do when there's an update on our computer we

478
00:43:40,011 --> 00:43:46,171
update the software most of us don't read all the fine print and see the new features they added that

479
00:43:46,171 --> 00:43:51,871
slow down our computer we just update it and the same thing is happening happening in bitcoin as i

480
00:43:51,871 --> 00:44:01,491
see it and i disagree about it being doa because of a central force just because luke is a central

481
00:44:01,491 --> 00:44:07,591
face on it and as a developer it still carries that history of bitcoin it's a fork of bitcoin

482
00:44:07,591 --> 00:44:13,211
it is still bitcoin it was bitcoin was always designed to include a proof of work change if

483
00:44:13,211 --> 00:44:19,571
necessary. If we want to be Bitcoiners, we have to be allowed to fire the miners. And I see this as

484
00:44:19,571 --> 00:44:24,751
we're doing what we have to do. We ran a test. Now we're firing the miners and no one can stop us.

485
00:44:24,771 --> 00:44:29,511
That's another beautiful thing. It's interesting to me that there's so many people that love to be

486
00:44:29,511 --> 00:44:35,211
vocal and write paragraphs to me on Twitter or whatever and tell me why I'm so stupid or why I'm

487
00:44:35,211 --> 00:44:40,471
bad for Bitcoin because I'm trying to convince people of something. And it's like, I'm just

488
00:44:40,471 --> 00:44:47,071
excited. I'm just sharing my point of view. I'm like, hey, I think we stumbled across a major fix

489
00:44:47,071 --> 00:44:52,951
here and I see an opportunity. And you said automatically it'll be less centralized. I

490
00:44:52,951 --> 00:44:58,031
completely disagree. I think right out of the gates, Bitcoin Blake2B is going to be more

491
00:44:58,031 --> 00:45:02,451
centralized because I know people all over the world that are buying miners. They're all sold

492
00:45:02,451 --> 00:45:08,551
out everywhere. So immediately we already have node runners and we already have miners. We don't need

493
00:45:08,551 --> 00:45:11,931
whatever the hash rate is of the old network.

494
00:45:12,031 --> 00:45:12,911
We don't need that.

495
00:45:13,171 --> 00:45:15,171
All we need is miners around the world.

496
00:45:15,531 --> 00:45:17,291
I would much rather see individuals

497
00:45:17,291 --> 00:45:18,591
running single miners,

498
00:45:19,151 --> 00:45:20,631
running through a Datum server,

499
00:45:21,111 --> 00:45:22,331
mining their own template.

500
00:45:23,251 --> 00:45:24,351
And this fork of Bitcoin,

501
00:45:24,511 --> 00:45:26,871
we're doing everything we can in the culture

502
00:45:26,871 --> 00:45:28,851
to instill those ideals,

503
00:45:28,851 --> 00:45:31,091
to keep Bitcoin being what it is.

504
00:45:31,171 --> 00:45:31,931
We may fail.

505
00:45:32,331 --> 00:45:33,731
I'm 100% okay with that.

506
00:45:33,791 --> 00:45:34,871
I have nothing to lose.

507
00:45:35,571 --> 00:45:36,371
You know, that's another,

508
00:45:36,371 --> 00:45:59,851
And people will misunderstand when I say I don't carry when I don't when I say I don't hold Bitcoin, it's because I believe in and in Bitcoin as a payment network. I don't believe in this like hodl so you can retire rich narrative. To me, that's a fiat narrative. I'm so over it. I'm so over this like, oh, let me keep what I can keep for me and my family versus like build something and provide value in exchange.

509
00:45:59,851 --> 00:46:07,731
Like the network that Bitcoin has built, this network effect that we're walking away from, it's a bunch of people that buy and sell on exchanges.

510
00:46:08,451 --> 00:46:11,591
And it's paper Bitcoin shit leveraged up on top.

511
00:46:11,671 --> 00:46:14,231
I don't see it as Bitcoin anymore.

512
00:46:14,391 --> 00:46:17,031
To me, Bitcoin is the fork.

513
00:46:17,451 --> 00:46:28,771
I'm not afraid of Luke being in charge because if you're on the other side, then you're accepting that core is in charge and whatever individual is being manipulated and paid for on that side.

514
00:46:28,771 --> 00:46:32,431
So if that's what makes Bitcoin centralized, they're both very centralized.

515
00:46:32,851 --> 00:46:40,711
To me, what makes it more centralized is that there's going to be a bunch of individual miners all around the world, even if there's a hundred of us.

516
00:46:40,711 --> 00:46:46,351
That's more decentralized than what we have, which is like there could be backdoor meetings.

517
00:46:46,551 --> 00:46:47,931
There could be, you know, there's more money.

518
00:46:47,991 --> 00:46:49,751
Like you said, you said it yourself.

519
00:46:49,851 --> 00:46:51,671
These miners are fiat focused.

520
00:46:52,231 --> 00:46:56,731
Me and my friends who are picking up miners, we're like, dude, this has a chance to change the future.

521
00:46:56,731 --> 00:47:01,851
we want to be here early and be part of this we want to be part of the network it's not a fiat

522
00:47:01,851 --> 00:47:08,171
focused group and so to me that is the movement so this to me this is staying and fighting and

523
00:47:08,171 --> 00:47:13,931
people will say i'm running away or rage quitting or whatever to me this is staying and fighting

524
00:47:13,931 --> 00:47:19,911
this is like okay time to fire the miners there was always a possibility it could happen again

525
00:47:19,911 --> 00:47:25,791
and I would be so happy to see this new fork be confused about its name.

526
00:47:26,171 --> 00:47:30,131
I would be so happy to see nobody acknowledging it or putting on exchanges.

527
00:47:30,891 --> 00:47:33,911
My goal in talking to people is just to get, you know,

528
00:47:33,991 --> 00:47:36,891
help people that are maybe people that are on the fence

529
00:47:36,891 --> 00:47:40,811
that believe in Bitcoin as money, but they don't have the, you know,

530
00:47:41,031 --> 00:47:42,911
I don't know, help people take a leap of faith

531
00:47:42,911 --> 00:47:44,731
because I get your perspective.

532
00:47:44,991 --> 00:47:46,711
I mean, it's a lot to walk away from.

533
00:47:46,711 --> 00:47:52,191
there's a you know i think but i think to consider continue fighting there we're kind of falling

534
00:47:52,191 --> 00:47:58,651
victim to a sunk sunk cost fallacy you know i get it like that's a lot to walk away from

535
00:47:58,651 --> 00:48:04,711
but to me i just don't see any other choice and i love that bitcoin is this way i love that no one

536
00:48:04,711 --> 00:48:12,131
can stop us from doing it and i love that anyone can just take and hold both coins right if you got

537
00:48:12,131 --> 00:48:17,291
some Bitcoin in cold storage, you don't even have to take a side. You can just watch to see how it

538
00:48:17,291 --> 00:48:21,871
unfolds. And that's a beautiful thing about Bitcoin. And we don't, at the end of the day,

539
00:48:21,911 --> 00:48:26,751
none of us know, no one's going to get to decide. I'm just following my principles. And to me,

540
00:48:27,471 --> 00:48:32,251
maybe I can't explain it on a technical level. Maybe I don't know the exact details to convince

541
00:48:32,251 --> 00:48:39,691
somebody. But to me, it's like 2020, clear as day, Bitcoin, as we know at core, all that has

542
00:48:39,691 --> 00:48:44,691
completely been compromised i'm not afraid to say it's corrupted i don't care who it offends

543
00:48:44,691 --> 00:48:51,791
it's it's completely effed in my opinion and uh yeah that's just how i see it but i i understand

544
00:48:51,791 --> 00:48:57,351
i definitely understand other perspectives on that it's not i mean forking is a scary idea

545
00:48:57,351 --> 00:49:03,971
and i get that yeah i i agree with almost everything you said there and i i totally

546
00:49:03,971 --> 00:49:09,771
respect your right to do all of this like and i i think it's if this is what you truly believe

547
00:49:09,771 --> 00:49:17,111
then absolutely go ahead like that's the that is the right thing to do then uh the thing uh

548
00:49:17,111 --> 00:49:23,411
first of all the thing with the 20 price increase afterwards that that that was me trying to explain

549
00:49:23,411 --> 00:49:30,311
how i think that the miners think it's not how i think uh because i have a much more long-term

550
00:49:30,311 --> 00:49:40,791
time horizon. But also, Bitcoin's number go up. Let's dissect that for a bit. What is that?

551
00:49:41,711 --> 00:49:49,811
Number go up is an effect that happens because a fiat is losing value all the time, but it's also

552
00:49:49,811 --> 00:49:57,031
a reflection of the deflationary nature of the free market. It is Bitcoin showing the world

553
00:49:57,031 --> 00:50:00,571
that if you have a money with a limited supply,

554
00:50:01,471 --> 00:50:04,471
in other words, something that is perpetually scarce,

555
00:50:05,151 --> 00:50:08,351
then all prices will drop forever.

556
00:50:08,851 --> 00:50:13,191
That is, it's showing you the true nature of the free market.

557
00:50:13,191 --> 00:50:16,851
That's how I view number go up.

558
00:50:17,291 --> 00:50:19,711
And it's going to be volatile in the beginning

559
00:50:19,711 --> 00:50:23,691
because Bitcoin is still small in comparison to everything else.

560
00:50:23,691 --> 00:50:31,871
But I believe it will be volatile even when Bitcoin, if hyper-Bitcoinization or when hyper-Bitcoinization ever happens.

561
00:50:33,091 --> 00:50:45,091
The reason I think that we, everyone considering like either side is we need to do some introspection.

562
00:50:45,091 --> 00:51:02,871
And when I've done that, one of the things where I think I can find my own bias here is that I get most of my opinions on what your general Bitcoiner thinks via social media.

563
00:51:02,871 --> 00:51:27,371
And I think I get a very skewed picture from there. So I think suit coiners and shit coin apologists and, you know, wannabe cypherpunks are extremely loud on social media. I think true cypherpunks and truly passionate, people are truly passionate about Bitcoin. You don't see them on social media at all.

564
00:51:27,371 --> 00:51:33,491
And I think that this group is still enormous on legacy Bitcoin too.

565
00:51:33,791 --> 00:51:35,611
I know a lot of them myself.

566
00:51:35,791 --> 00:51:40,671
I mean, you were exactly that up until a couple of months ago, right?

567
00:51:41,371 --> 00:51:44,771
And I think there's a lot of people like you out there.

568
00:51:46,611 --> 00:51:56,731
And my hope is that there's enough of people like that left in the legacy system

569
00:51:56,731 --> 00:52:14,541
to because I not convinced that it corrupted I think the our movement was simply not strong enough to convince enough plebs to signal

570
00:52:14,541 --> 00:52:23,441
and therefore not powerful enough to convince the miners to flip the bit. To me, that does not mean

571
00:52:23,441 --> 00:52:29,101
that Bitcoin is a failed attempt. However, as you say, we now have the two coins. Everyone who

572
00:52:29,101 --> 00:52:36,821
does Bitcoin properly will have both coins. If you have paper Bitcoin and if you have them in

573
00:52:36,821 --> 00:52:42,781
custodial wallets or on exchanges and stuff, you might not be able to access your Blake2B coins in

574
00:52:42,781 --> 00:52:50,021
the future. It's very likely that you will be able to access your legacy coins, but not your

575
00:52:50,021 --> 00:52:55,921
Blake to B coins. But if you're doing Bitcoin properly, you have the option to be a fence

576
00:52:55,921 --> 00:53:03,801
sitter for a very long time here, even for decades, to see how this thing plays out.

577
00:53:04,661 --> 00:53:10,301
And that's probably where I'm at. In the Bitcoin cash fork, it was obvious to me

578
00:53:10,301 --> 00:53:17,241
that that was the takeover attempt coin, and I wanted to get rid of it as soon as possible. So I

579
00:53:17,241 --> 00:53:26,421
did and thereby increased my stack significantly because it was worth quite a bit in Bitcoin terms

580
00:53:26,421 --> 00:53:32,641
at the time of the fork. We'll see now. Is it September 1st that the algorithm changes

581
00:53:32,641 --> 00:53:40,021
and then it starts building from the last BIP110 block, I guess? And we'll see what the markets say.

582
00:53:40,021 --> 00:53:46,101
We'll see if it has a ticker anywhere. And I mean, I'm looking forward to seeing how this

583
00:53:46,101 --> 00:53:52,741
whole thing plays out. One thing I've learned throughout all of this is that I'll be more

584
00:53:52,741 --> 00:53:58,201
careful with the word shitcoiner from now on. In the end, I think there will be Bitcoiners and

585
00:53:58,201 --> 00:54:07,061
shitcoiners. However, I'm not entirely convinced that I don't think that all people forking off

586
00:54:07,061 --> 00:54:11,661
are shitcoiners. And I don't think that was true even for the Bitcoin cash fork. I think there

587
00:54:11,661 --> 00:54:18,261
were people who sincerely believed that that was the that was bitcoin that they were on the real

588
00:54:18,261 --> 00:54:23,001
chain there it was not only people who tried to it was not only this takeover attempt there were

589
00:54:23,001 --> 00:54:28,321
people who actually believed that side maybe more of a philosophical battle than i remember it as but

590
00:54:28,321 --> 00:54:37,481
but uh yeah i i um it's gonna be interesting to see how this plays out and i i uh i wish you

591
00:54:37,481 --> 00:54:43,961
luck in the future if this is where you uh choose to to spend your energy uh

592
00:54:44,741 --> 00:54:54,821
i don't think i think there's a lot of bitcoiners who are not um you get into one other problem i

593
00:54:54,821 --> 00:55:04,961
wanted to discuss here not everyone is in a position economically to to to try a thing

594
00:55:04,961 --> 00:55:13,941
such as this because if they put all their eggs in this new basket instead and that basket is not

595
00:55:13,941 --> 00:55:23,041
worth as much in the beginning or only a fraction of what Bitcoin is worth, then that's going to be

596
00:55:23,041 --> 00:55:31,101
a tricky thing to, well, I guess what will happen is that you'd have a price between the two and you

597
00:55:31,101 --> 00:55:36,961
could sell one for the other and we'll see what happens in the future which one gets more market

598
00:55:36,961 --> 00:55:43,121
share or whatnot but i think it's very risky and i don't this is another thing and and maybe

599
00:55:43,121 --> 00:55:49,721
pre-podcaster me i mean i was never a podcaster first i was an author first and a podcaster

600
00:55:49,721 --> 00:55:57,621
afterwards so doing doing this podcast has been very interesting because not only do i get to

601
00:55:57,621 --> 00:56:01,981
listen to the opinions of a lot of interesting people and maybe get a new perspective that way

602
00:56:01,981 --> 00:56:09,461
but i also see the incentives that podcasters have and and uh there's there's even more of those

603
00:56:09,461 --> 00:56:16,461
bags of shit coins that you're being offered and and uh i i get why some people choose to take them

604
00:56:16,461 --> 00:56:23,101
to just keep their channel alive as soon as you're doing something other than just hodling

605
00:56:23,101 --> 00:56:30,281
and doing your thing you are exposed to a lot of other incentive malincentives if you will

606
00:56:30,281 --> 00:56:36,481
and that is a problem i see the problem with podcasters in general i see the problem with

607
00:56:36,481 --> 00:56:44,841
conferences and how it's sort of these environments they

608
00:56:44,841 --> 00:56:55,741
incentivize people to be less adversarial in their thinking. They incentivize diplomacy and

609
00:56:55,741 --> 00:57:03,601
being friends with everyone and stuff like that. And Bitcoin needs toxic people. I'm absolutely

610
00:57:03,601 --> 00:57:10,741
convinced that it needs toxic people and it needs skeptics that are willing to call out

611
00:57:10,741 --> 00:57:20,641
bullshit whenever they see it. And my fear now going forward is that in losing so many

612
00:57:20,641 --> 00:57:26,601
based Bitcoiners in this fork, then Bitcoin is less resilient going forward than it was before.

613
00:57:27,821 --> 00:57:32,921
It's such an interesting system because it's the most robust and the most fragile system ever

614
00:57:32,921 --> 00:57:42,361
constructed simultaneously because it's completely dependent on the people doing things in it.

615
00:57:42,361 --> 00:57:49,401
And we thought we had the game theory figured out. And maybe we did and maybe we didn't.

616
00:57:51,801 --> 00:58:02,361
We'll see. As I said, I'm openly a fence sitter here and I'm going to wait and see

617
00:58:02,361 --> 00:58:08,841
what happens. If I see more and more rot and more and more suit coiners and shit on the other chain,

618
00:58:09,561 --> 00:58:18,281
then I might follow you one day, but not immediately. I'm still willing to give this

619
00:58:18,281 --> 00:58:24,201
another round and fight for Bitcoin as it is with all the infrastructure that is built around it and

620
00:58:24,201 --> 00:58:30,921
all of that, because you're going to have to rebuild everything now. It's really interesting.

621
00:58:30,921 --> 00:58:33,941
Sorry, what you're saying brings up so many thoughts.

622
00:58:34,081 --> 00:58:44,621
So it's interesting that Luke, Mechanic, Kraters, someone like me and some of the other YouTubers or anyone on Twitter kind of behind this movement that are speaking up.

623
00:58:45,121 --> 00:58:47,901
Some of us are like, you guys are completely retarded.

624
00:58:48,501 --> 00:58:50,781
And some of you are like, don't leave Bitcoin.

625
00:58:50,901 --> 00:58:51,801
We need you.

626
00:58:52,221 --> 00:58:53,761
And I think that's really interesting.

627
00:58:53,761 --> 00:58:55,061
And I think it's a good point.

628
00:58:55,321 --> 00:58:56,501
This was our best shot.

629
00:58:56,881 --> 00:58:58,081
Luke was our best shot.

630
00:58:58,941 --> 00:59:00,061
That's what I'm curious.

631
00:59:00,061 --> 00:59:03,581
It's like from someone in your perspective, it's like, what is the next move?

632
00:59:03,581 --> 00:59:04,141
Like what?

633
00:59:04,541 --> 00:59:07,821
Like the best of Bitcoin is leaving Bitcoin.

634
00:59:08,661 --> 00:59:13,581
And we already kind of took our shot and missed at correcting that path.

635
00:59:13,681 --> 00:59:20,021
And now the best of us, in my opinion, the based ones, the ones that care about Bitcoin are leaving.

636
00:59:20,561 --> 00:59:22,881
And I want to bring up one interesting point.

637
00:59:23,281 --> 00:59:27,401
There's been Bitcoin forks before that everyone just called shit coins and they disappeared.

638
00:59:27,401 --> 00:59:35,581
not once that I know of was that fork a better version of money not once this is a time where

639
00:59:35,581 --> 00:59:40,381
there's a movement of individuals there's nobody selling this thing there's a movement of

640
00:59:40,381 --> 00:59:44,041
individuals that are saying this is the better tool I'm going to pick up the better tool

641
00:59:44,041 --> 00:59:50,261
and I want to see this for I understand that no matter what you know there ends up being in an

642
00:59:50,261 --> 00:59:56,921
exchange like if there is a person that wants to sell Blake to be coin and a person who wants to

643
00:59:56,921 --> 01:00:02,461
sell dollars, there's going to be an exchange. And at some point, there's going to be a value

644
01:00:02,461 --> 01:00:07,581
assigned to it compared to dollars or compared to the other Bitcoin or whatever. That's inevitable.

645
01:00:08,241 --> 01:00:13,641
But what I would like to see is I would like to see this Bitcoin, this fork, whatever you want

646
01:00:13,641 --> 01:00:18,901
to call it. I just see it as Bitcoin living on. I like calling it Satoshi's because I think if we

647
01:00:18,901 --> 01:00:24,201
focused on Satoshi's, we would think of the medium of exchange over the store of value and

648
01:00:24,201 --> 01:00:31,701
and that huddle mentality mentality i want to see this thing gain its value based on its usefulness

649
01:00:31,701 --> 01:00:37,861
as a tool based on its network based on what can happen with it and we've lost that track like

650
01:00:37,861 --> 01:00:53,571
nobody cares about bitcoin as payment rails nobody using it nobody selling stuff for bitcoin and getting paid directly it happening rarely on nostr and rarely in person or whatever but that the movement to me is the individuals

651
01:00:53,571 --> 01:01:00,271
who care about it as money and i don't care if 99 of people disagree with me i believe that the

652
01:01:00,271 --> 01:01:06,571
best tool will win out no matter what like you know think about any tool in history there's no

653
01:01:06,571 --> 01:01:10,971
reason why the best thing will not end up being used it doesn't matter how many people hype up

654
01:01:10,971 --> 01:01:16,991
tool a if tool b is a better tool it's gonna eventually win and i've already said this but

655
01:01:16,991 --> 01:01:22,471
that's what's so beautiful about this is that we you know people can sit on the fence they you know

656
01:01:22,471 --> 01:01:28,551
i just nobody has to make any rash movements you guys can keep supporting bitcoin as you know it

657
01:01:28,551 --> 01:01:34,311
but me and a lot of my friends aren't going to be there anymore and i don't know how you guys plan

658
01:01:34,311 --> 01:01:40,751
to fight that battle. I don't know what the next step would be. To me, it's like there's two choices

659
01:01:40,751 --> 01:01:48,971
and one is like fighting a giant and behind this giant, the spoils are fiat denominated

660
01:01:48,971 --> 01:01:55,631
Michael Saylor shit coins, or there's a clear path where there's just real Bitcoin and we don't have

661
01:01:55,631 --> 01:02:02,471
to fight anybody. And that's what I feel like. I'm taking the path of a peaceful, there's nothing

662
01:02:02,471 --> 01:02:09,011
to fight there anymore and to me this is like oh we can just choose into uh the new better tool

663
01:02:09,011 --> 01:02:14,011
i don't think that there's ever been a bitcoin fork where they actually made uh major improvements

664
01:02:14,011 --> 01:02:23,191
and um yeah well i have a lot of faith in it i'm very excited about it i don't even um i don't know

665
01:02:23,191 --> 01:02:27,811
for me things are like that sometimes like i hit a switch in my head and it's like a binary thing

666
01:02:27,811 --> 01:02:37,891
And now I feel, you know, I'm over it. I'm so over Bitcoin and chasing gain, like even just browsing Twitter or anything.

667
01:02:38,031 --> 01:02:43,832
It just it's it's so even people that say they're maximum maxis or whatever.

668
01:02:43,832 --> 01:02:47,451
They're just look at most people are just looking for those fiat gains.

669
01:02:47,611 --> 01:02:51,231
And I understand that that is a way that we base our value on.

670
01:02:51,231 --> 01:03:03,832
But I want our value to base out of the usefulness of a tool, not out of hype, not because of what Michael Saylor says, not because of some political discussion or something that happens on the other side of the planet.

671
01:03:05,311 --> 01:03:07,791
You know, news, news events and stuff.

672
01:03:07,791 --> 01:03:08,951
I'm just kind of over that.

673
01:03:09,611 --> 01:03:17,131
And yeah, I'm probably overly idealistic and oversimplifying things, but I'm going to just follow follow what feels good to me.

674
01:03:17,131 --> 01:03:39,351
Yeah, to devil's advocate that I think a whole bunch of the Bitcoin cash people actually did, as I said before, I think they did think that that would make Bitcoin better money. And they also believe they were righteous and that they didn't care about number go up and that they were on the right path. That's why they clung on to it.

675
01:03:39,351 --> 01:03:49,391
I think the number go up thing and the usefulness of the tool and the medium exchange versus store of value, here's my perspective on that.

676
01:03:49,651 --> 01:03:56,511
I often try to push this that I think store of value is a useless term because you cannot value as subjective.

677
01:03:58,031 --> 01:04:01,871
So it should be medium exchange over space and time.

678
01:04:02,391 --> 01:04:07,231
And when you medium exchange over space is the normal medium exchange when you exchange with others.

679
01:04:07,231 --> 01:04:11,751
And medium of exchange over time is when you trade with your future self.

680
01:04:12,431 --> 01:04:18,092
And the hodl mentality, I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

681
01:04:18,231 --> 01:04:25,391
Because as I know from Praxeology and Austrian economics, catalactics is that money is never idle.

682
01:04:25,832 --> 01:04:28,611
It always provides its user with something.

683
01:04:28,611 --> 01:04:48,911
So if I have a stack of Bitcoin that I know is going to go up in purchasing power over time, I refuse to use the term dollar value, I mean purchasing power, then my best cause of action is often to just sit and hodl and not trade it for something else.

684
01:04:48,911 --> 01:04:57,592
The whole notion that we have to exchange all the time is a Keynesian notion, in my opinion.

685
01:04:58,191 --> 01:05:05,751
Keynes tried to push that every time a dollar bill changes hands, a new dollar worth of value is created.

686
01:05:06,531 --> 01:05:08,151
And therefore, we need inflation.

687
01:05:08,371 --> 01:05:11,931
And the flaw of that argument is, of course, that, yeah, but then you discount.

688
01:05:11,931 --> 01:05:18,011
if you have inflation, then people will just trade them for frivolous shit and you end up with

689
01:05:18,011 --> 01:05:25,751
quantity over quality. But so the counterpart to that would be, I don't think on a Bitcoin standard

690
01:05:25,751 --> 01:05:33,271
that we will need to transact as often as we do on a fiat standard. I think we're, since everyone

691
01:05:33,271 --> 01:05:39,871
on earth has only ever experienced a fiat standard, we think that we need to exchange money often

692
01:05:39,871 --> 01:05:43,231
and we base our opinions on that.

693
01:05:43,671 --> 01:05:47,391
Whereas on a Bitcoin standard, I don't think that's as necessary anymore.

694
01:05:47,951 --> 01:05:51,592
Like value for value and barter and stuff will be more,

695
01:05:51,671 --> 01:05:58,411
ironically, be more prominent in a hyper-Bitcoinized society.

696
01:05:58,411 --> 01:06:03,491
I will be more inclined to just buy everyone a round of beers or coffee

697
01:06:03,491 --> 01:06:07,731
than each one paying for themselves.

698
01:06:07,731 --> 01:06:13,051
I think that's a part of the scaling to me, that we use money less.

699
01:06:14,631 --> 01:06:16,931
So there's that about that.

700
01:06:16,991 --> 01:06:24,491
And the usefulness of the tool, it has to be the usefulness both as a store of value and a medium of change, or a medium of change over space and time.

701
01:06:24,571 --> 01:06:29,691
You can't just have usefulness over space and it not holding its value over time.

702
01:06:29,751 --> 01:06:35,311
Then it misses half the point, or the bigger point, because the problem is fiat.

703
01:06:35,311 --> 01:06:38,611
Fiat is a great medium exchange over space.

704
01:06:38,911 --> 01:06:40,031
You can use it everywhere.

705
01:06:40,431 --> 01:06:45,711
The problem with fiat is that it's a lousy medium exchange over time.

706
01:06:45,871 --> 01:06:47,271
It loses its value over time.

707
01:06:47,592 --> 01:06:51,811
So this is the thing that Bitcoin does better than fiat.

708
01:06:52,491 --> 01:06:59,891
So medium exchange over space is important, and it's important that we don't fall for moronic fiat traps,

709
01:06:59,891 --> 01:07:06,731
such as Bitcoin is digital capital and you need a stock based on Solana to make it into money.

710
01:07:08,351 --> 01:07:10,751
We need to not fall into those traps.

711
01:07:10,991 --> 01:07:15,231
And absolutely, I believe we should use our sats and exchange them

712
01:07:15,231 --> 01:07:19,751
and thereby help other Bitcoiners become more economically powerful in the world.

713
01:07:20,971 --> 01:07:26,011
But the more interesting aspect of Bitcoin to me was always

714
01:07:26,011 --> 01:07:30,571
how it truly reflects the deflationary nature of the free market.

715
01:07:30,931 --> 01:07:34,711
In other words, that it is a good medium of exchange over time

716
01:07:34,711 --> 01:07:37,771
and not only keeps its purchasing power,

717
01:07:37,871 --> 01:07:41,111
but makes its purchasing power go up perpetually.

718
01:07:41,491 --> 01:07:42,891
That's the magic to me.

719
01:07:43,611 --> 01:07:50,091
And if we perpetually fork it and form smaller and smaller subgroups,

720
01:07:50,611 --> 01:07:54,591
then it cannot have that because then you have 42 million coins now

721
01:07:54,592 --> 01:07:58,592
and you force people to choose between one or the other.

722
01:07:58,991 --> 01:08:02,151
And the whole point was you never have to choose again.

723
01:08:02,352 --> 01:08:03,171
Like, this is it.

724
01:08:04,931 --> 01:08:06,611
And this is true.

725
01:08:06,911 --> 01:08:13,211
To me, this is true regardless of if Blake 1-2 or Legacy wins this war.

726
01:08:13,751 --> 01:08:19,592
Like, a decade from now, if Legacy is the winning thing

727
01:08:19,592 --> 01:08:22,811
or if you are the winning, or I shouldn't say we or you

728
01:08:22,811 --> 01:08:24,332
because I'm going to keep both

729
01:08:24,332 --> 01:08:27,111
and I'm going to be a very interested fence sitter here.

730
01:08:27,271 --> 01:08:30,051
But yeah, so that's some kind of counter argument.

731
01:08:30,311 --> 01:08:31,071
Love to hear your thoughts.

732
01:08:31,711 --> 01:08:34,832
I think one of the most interesting things

733
01:08:34,832 --> 01:08:37,891
to talk about in Bitcoin is why is it valuable, right?

734
01:08:38,151 --> 01:08:41,931
Like, why do we, what gives anything value?

735
01:08:42,151 --> 01:08:43,891
Because depending on how you look at it,

736
01:08:43,891 --> 01:08:45,871
if you're looking at it as a payment network

737
01:08:45,871 --> 01:08:49,131
or if you're looking at its limited supply

738
01:08:49,131 --> 01:08:51,571
or if you're comparing, if we're comparing it to fiat,

739
01:08:51,571 --> 01:08:53,951
But it's like automatically it's got a limited supply.

740
01:08:53,951 --> 01:09:00,832
So it's like it's already got a huge leg up no matter what, even if it just sits in cold storage for some people.

741
01:09:00,971 --> 01:09:03,491
It can play the role of digital gold.

742
01:09:03,592 --> 01:09:06,132
And that's what I see Bitcoin as we know it.

743
01:09:06,271 --> 01:09:13,152
You know, the same way gold gets manipulated and is there's all these derivatives and paper and it's like a convoluted thing.

744
01:09:13,152 --> 01:09:15,632
And people don't really know who has what.

745
01:09:15,751 --> 01:09:17,471
That's how I see Bitcoin as we know it.

746
01:09:17,511 --> 01:09:18,852
It's like the Michael Saylor games.

747
01:09:18,852 --> 01:09:22,251
it's like we don't really know what he holds or how.

748
01:09:22,251 --> 01:09:23,251
Okay.

749
01:09:23,251 --> 01:09:26,291
Let me just interrupt that for a moment because

750
01:09:26,322 --> 01:09:29,222
Still, that does not make gold worse.

751
01:09:29,222 --> 01:09:31,582
It makes paper gold worse.

752
01:09:31,582 --> 01:09:35,362
It makes all the shenanigans going on on top of gold worse.

753
01:09:35,362 --> 01:09:36,942
And I think the same is true for Bitcoin.

754
01:09:36,942 --> 01:09:38,822
It doesn't necessarily make Bitcoin worse.

755
01:09:38,822 --> 01:09:40,702
It makes the paper Bitcoin worse.

756
01:09:40,702 --> 01:09:44,082
I completely disagree because if people are coming in

757
01:09:44,082 --> 01:09:45,762
and they want to figure out a store of value,

758
01:09:45,762 --> 01:09:48,702
half of them are going to get stopped at MicroStrategy

759
01:09:48,702 --> 01:09:50,262
because they can get a yield, right?

760
01:09:50,262 --> 01:09:54,022
Versus holding Bitcoin in a cold storage wallet.

761
01:09:54,022 --> 01:10:00,842
So it's taking that value that could have gone to the pristine thing and it's distributing in all these games.

762
01:10:00,842 --> 01:10:08,542
Like if gold was only physical gold and there was no paper derivative, I think gold would be worth a lot more dollars per ounce or whatever.

763
01:10:09,042 --> 01:10:11,682
And obviously you and I both know the shortcomings of gold.

764
01:10:11,802 --> 01:10:14,882
I'm just talking about that store of value narrative.

765
01:10:16,642 --> 01:10:22,142
I've kind of already said this, but I would like to see Bitcoin more so as we go forward.

766
01:10:22,142 --> 01:10:27,062
And when I say that, I'm talking about my Blake 2B chain that people are disregarding.

767
01:10:27,322 --> 01:10:34,262
I want to see it build its value based on merits as a network, not over what we can do with it later.

768
01:10:34,422 --> 01:10:41,262
Right now, there is overwhelmingly, even people that say they're maxis or whatever, they're not thinking about adopting.

769
01:10:41,542 --> 01:10:44,462
They're not thinking about getting people in their lives to adopt Bitcoin.

770
01:10:44,662 --> 01:10:47,822
They're not thinking about trading it value for value.

771
01:10:47,902 --> 01:10:51,042
They're thinking about selling it for more money later.

772
01:10:51,042 --> 01:10:52,862
or maybe they're not thinking about selling it,

773
01:10:52,902 --> 01:10:55,482
but they're still thinking it's going to be worth more later.

774
01:10:56,102 --> 01:11:00,082
And to me, that very baseline idea of like,

775
01:11:00,142 --> 01:11:02,442
that's a scarcity mindset thinking like,

776
01:11:02,822 --> 01:11:04,242
I got to save for late.

777
01:11:04,642 --> 01:11:07,662
And I understand that that's, you know,

778
01:11:08,342 --> 01:11:10,062
it's a weird way of looking at things.

779
01:11:10,062 --> 01:11:16,062
But to me, the store of value should be based on the fact

780
01:11:16,062 --> 01:11:17,862
that it makes a good payment thing.

781
01:11:18,202 --> 01:11:21,002
Versus right now, I feel like people are seeing it as,

782
01:11:21,042 --> 01:11:24,402
Well, maybe I'll start spending them once it gets to this level.

783
01:11:24,742 --> 01:11:25,722
There's always like that.

784
01:11:25,782 --> 01:11:27,442
How much do you need to retire?

785
01:11:27,582 --> 01:11:28,862
How much am I going to need later?

786
01:11:28,962 --> 01:11:32,862
There's never discussion of like, how do we put this to work in our community?

787
01:11:33,282 --> 01:11:34,962
The tools have been here for a long time.

788
01:11:35,102 --> 01:11:36,702
Lightning's been around for a long time.

789
01:11:37,102 --> 01:11:39,862
We could have had tons of changes in the world already.

790
01:11:40,102 --> 01:11:46,542
But instead, we've mostly just kind of turned on our TV and we watch Michael Saylor and we watch the news.

791
01:11:46,962 --> 01:11:49,082
We call Bitcoin the volatile thing.

792
01:11:49,442 --> 01:11:50,422
I don't see it that way.

793
01:11:50,422 --> 01:12:14,682
Bitcoin is super solid. It takes a certain amount of energy to get Bitcoin. The only thing that makes Bitcoin volatile is proof of work change. That's how you value Bitcoin is that. But we don't value it that way. We have a peg to a dollar. We have exchanges. We have all these fiat games. We got the micro strategy funhouse that adds. It's like a distortion, right? It's like a funhouse. It's like, well, what's the real thing anymore?

794
01:12:14,682 --> 01:12:22,442
and yeah I don't know I think Bitcoin as we know it can exist for a long time while Bitcoin that

795
01:12:22,442 --> 01:12:29,202
I'm rooting for builds out its network and finds its value its own way like I don't know if it's

796
01:12:29,202 --> 01:12:34,942
going to be super clear very quickly that there is a winner or something I just I kind of see one

797
01:12:34,942 --> 01:12:41,642
is like a fiat based derivative game that people can speculate on and then we're going to fork and

798
01:12:41,642 --> 01:12:47,042
try to make it a better tool and put it to use hopefully and i know it's it's a tall order to

799
01:12:47,042 --> 01:12:54,522
try to get people to exchange differently yeah my point was more that it does the the games on top

800
01:12:54,522 --> 01:13:00,382
of gold doesn't change the the the chemical properties of gold if you want like it doesn't

801
01:13:00,382 --> 01:13:09,662
actually change gold that's true so uh gold is just a stupid rock and i i sort of want bitcoin

802
01:13:09,662 --> 01:13:13,382
to be a stupid rock too, and that it doesn't change over time.

803
01:13:14,742 --> 01:13:19,282
You should go with Blake 2B then, because they're fixing it.

804
01:13:19,382 --> 01:13:22,582
I don't know if you heard, but they fixed Bitcoin.

805
01:13:23,122 --> 01:13:23,742
Yeah, maybe.

806
01:13:24,282 --> 01:13:29,242
The narrative that it should be a store of value because it's a medium of exchange,

807
01:13:29,682 --> 01:13:32,302
that's exactly the Bcashers argument.

808
01:13:32,302 --> 01:13:35,262
And I don't agree with that, because as I said before,

809
01:13:35,262 --> 01:13:40,042
I don't believe that money is ever idle.

810
01:13:40,462 --> 01:13:42,802
But am I like a B-cash-er?

811
01:13:43,182 --> 01:13:43,682
No, no, no.

812
01:13:43,702 --> 01:13:44,942
Do I look like Roger Ver?

813
01:13:44,942 --> 01:13:45,402
No, no, no.

814
01:13:45,422 --> 01:13:46,642
Am I up on a stage?

815
01:13:47,022 --> 01:13:47,242
No.

816
01:13:47,882 --> 01:13:53,622
I have six miners right now, ASICs, that I paid brand new.

817
01:13:53,802 --> 01:13:58,222
I paid $12,000 a piece, and now I'm going to brick them.

818
01:13:58,582 --> 01:14:00,282
I'm choosing to brick my miners.

819
01:14:00,562 --> 01:14:00,822
Yeah.

820
01:14:01,402 --> 01:14:04,422
So I'm just going to say we're not like B-cash.

821
01:14:04,422 --> 01:14:08,122
Not very much. No, no. You haven't referred to crying baby,

822
01:14:08,122 --> 01:14:12,362
to dying babies even once in this conversation. So I have to give you that.

823
01:14:12,362 --> 01:14:14,622
Now we're on to eating cats.

824
01:14:14,622 --> 01:14:20,022
A rebuttal to another argument that no one uses Bitcoin.

825
01:14:20,022 --> 01:14:26,322
This is simply not true. I'm one of the founding members of the Free Madeira organization.

826
01:14:26,322 --> 01:14:30,022
And there's like 200 retailers there that accept Satsnow.

827
01:14:30,022 --> 01:14:34,282
And it's being used daily by a ton of Bitcoiners. A lot of

828
01:14:34,422 --> 01:14:39,282
digital nomads, for lack of a better word, move there for this very reason.

829
01:14:39,642 --> 01:14:42,182
I use it all the time when I'm in El Salvador.

830
01:14:42,502 --> 01:14:48,962
I use it in Lugano and whenever, and I use it in Prague and any other place where if there's

831
01:14:48,962 --> 01:14:53,582
a restaurant to accept Bitcoin, I go there instead because I want to support that.

832
01:14:53,582 --> 01:14:58,842
And whenever I'm with other Bitcoiners, I mean, conferences is the obvious example,

833
01:14:59,002 --> 01:15:01,522
but whenever I meet other Bitcoiners, we use Sats.

834
01:15:01,722 --> 01:15:04,102
When we trade with one another, we use Sats.

835
01:15:04,422 --> 01:15:06,922
So I don't believe that that is true.

836
01:15:06,922 --> 01:15:13,562
Like I use Bitcoin daily and as a medium of exchange over space.

837
01:15:13,802 --> 01:15:20,802
Would you agree that maybe realistically 99% of Bitcoin is not being used that way though?

838
01:15:21,642 --> 01:15:24,582
Yeah, of Bitcoin, but not Bitcoiners.

839
01:15:24,982 --> 01:15:30,822
And I think it's more important that that 1% of the Bitcoins is being used as a medium of exchange,

840
01:15:30,822 --> 01:15:44,042
that Bitcoiners use it, because I don't have a problem with large stacks sitting in the hands of a few wealthy people.

841
01:15:44,302 --> 01:15:49,782
I don't think that is, the fiat system is the same and worse.

842
01:15:51,002 --> 01:15:56,242
The most fiat money is, it's like what is 1% owns more than half of the world.

843
01:15:56,242 --> 01:15:59,722
Like, that is a much larger problem in fiat.

844
01:15:59,862 --> 01:16:01,782
And it's not a problem in itself.

845
01:16:02,442 --> 01:16:13,102
Because all it does is like, if it's being huddled, it increases the scarcity of the remaining coins, making number go up, meaning making purchasing power go up.

846
01:16:13,262 --> 01:16:14,602
So I don't see that as a problem.

847
01:16:14,762 --> 01:16:18,082
I do see what Michael Saylor is doing is a problem.

848
01:16:18,382 --> 01:16:21,862
These fiat derivatives on top of it, I hate those.

849
01:16:22,122 --> 01:16:23,622
I think they suck.

850
01:16:23,622 --> 01:16:31,182
I don't think people should fall for that scam because all it is is I like Bitcoin by my goddamn stonk.

851
01:16:31,742 --> 01:16:34,002
And that's a bullshit game.

852
01:16:34,942 --> 01:16:44,822
So anyone who says they like Bitcoin and they use it to sell you a product, guilty as charged because I've said I like Bitcoin by my goddamn books.

853
01:16:44,822 --> 01:16:55,942
But a book, at least, does not claim to store value over time in any other way than that the words will still be.

854
01:16:56,602 --> 01:16:58,862
So that's not entirely the same.

855
01:16:58,942 --> 01:17:06,622
If someone wants to sell you a T-shirt for Bitcoin, they are probably not trying to scam you and take your sats.

856
01:17:06,622 --> 01:17:15,702
However, if someone claims that you can get more yield by buying some other shit, then they're obviously lying and they're trying to get your Bitcoin.

857
01:17:16,522 --> 01:17:18,062
So that's how I view that.

858
01:17:18,202 --> 01:17:26,622
But I don't see it as a problem that people voluntarily choose not to spend until Bitcoin has 100xed.

859
01:17:27,522 --> 01:17:32,302
That is a rational economic choice to me for most people.

860
01:17:32,302 --> 01:17:38,662
Most people will never accomplish it though, right?

861
01:17:38,662 --> 01:17:43,502
Most of us come into Bitcoin and we buy and then we sell a little bit later.

862
01:17:43,502 --> 01:17:47,422
Like human psychology, generally we're not very good at buying low.

863
01:17:47,422 --> 01:17:52,982
Yeah, but that doesn't mean we should be resentful to the people who figure that out.

864
01:17:52,982 --> 01:17:55,602
I mean, that was part of my journey.

865
01:17:55,602 --> 01:18:01,762
I didn't touch my Bitcoin for years, at least not to buy anything.

866
01:18:01,762 --> 01:18:13,952
then when I actually bought something I always regarded it because I could have bought 10 more of the same thing a year later I mean it supposed to do that to your psychology

867
01:18:13,952 --> 01:18:21,372
That's what creates this quality over quantity attitude in you, that you don't need frivolous shit.

868
01:18:21,532 --> 01:18:29,372
And ultimately, I think that leads to everyone becoming more stoic and more like that which I can do without I own.

869
01:18:29,532 --> 01:18:31,552
I don't need all this frivolous shit.

870
01:18:31,552 --> 01:18:32,852
I can just be minimalist

871
01:18:32,852 --> 01:18:33,972
and be

872
01:18:33,972 --> 01:18:34,852
I can

873
01:18:34,852 --> 01:18:36,492
owe nothing

874
01:18:36,492 --> 01:18:37,372
and be happy

875
01:18:37,372 --> 01:18:39,452
that's what it leads to

876
01:18:39,452 --> 01:18:39,672
right

877
01:18:39,672 --> 01:18:41,012
so I don't think

878
01:18:41,012 --> 01:18:42,532
that aspect of it

879
01:18:42,532 --> 01:18:43,292
should not be

880
01:18:43,292 --> 01:18:44,672
understated

881
01:18:44,672 --> 01:18:46,172
it is still

882
01:18:46,172 --> 01:18:46,992
the thing

883
01:18:46,992 --> 01:18:47,932
I fell in love with

884
01:18:47,932 --> 01:18:49,872
more than

885
01:18:49,872 --> 01:18:50,492
more than

886
01:18:50,492 --> 01:18:51,432
being a convenient

887
01:18:51,432 --> 01:18:52,472
payment system

888
01:18:52,472 --> 01:18:53,592
I love that

889
01:18:53,592 --> 01:18:54,352
I can send

890
01:18:54,352 --> 01:18:55,412
that I can pay

891
01:18:55,412 --> 01:18:56,612
anyone in the world

892
01:18:56,612 --> 01:18:57,652
that no one can do

893
01:18:57,652 --> 01:18:58,512
anything about it

894
01:18:58,512 --> 01:18:59,752
of course I love that

895
01:18:59,752 --> 01:19:00,452
but

896
01:19:00,452 --> 01:19:01,072
but the

897
01:19:01,552 --> 01:19:06,452
That's, that's, it needs to be, my point is it needs to be both.

898
01:19:06,552 --> 01:19:10,972
It needs to be store of value and medium exchange or medium exchange over space and time.

899
01:19:12,492 --> 01:19:13,592
Yeah, that makes sense.

900
01:19:13,652 --> 01:19:17,712
And maybe, you know, they require each other and it's a chicken or egg thing.

901
01:19:17,772 --> 01:19:20,172
Maybe it happens all at once.

902
01:19:20,852 --> 01:19:27,692
I'm not really sure, you know, something that just popped into my head that I think is really interesting that you kind of alluded to.

903
01:19:27,692 --> 01:19:29,792
You said, own nothing and be happy.

904
01:19:29,792 --> 01:19:34,912
and it makes me think of the have fun staying poor thing because a lot of people have been

905
01:19:34,912 --> 01:19:40,752
people will say that to me right if we're having an interaction and I'm explaining why I'm going

906
01:19:40,752 --> 01:19:44,252
with this for or whatever and then they'll say that and it's funny to me because I don't have

907
01:19:44,252 --> 01:19:51,432
Bitcoin so I like I'm not losing first of all no one's losing anything it's just a fork you could

908
01:19:51,432 --> 01:19:57,752
pretend it doesn't exist keep your coins as is and there's no fight to fight like it's just it's

909
01:19:57,752 --> 01:20:05,512
just an option for some of us. And so, and this is looking big picture, like, again, very idealistic,

910
01:20:05,512 --> 01:20:12,372
but I would love for everyone to have fun staying poor. Meaning my goal is to learn to love life,

911
01:20:12,392 --> 01:20:17,512
no matter what happens, regardless of, I don't keep money in my bank account. I've never been

912
01:20:17,512 --> 01:20:22,972
a saver. That's just who I am as a person. When I have money, I spend it because that's just the,

913
01:20:22,972 --> 01:20:27,552
that's like the incentives of fiat, right? It feels like you're going to miss out because it's

914
01:20:27,552 --> 01:20:32,332
burning a hole in your pocket. Right. And so that's part of that mindset is that I was kind

915
01:20:32,332 --> 01:20:37,672
of raised in the fiat world, but I've also, I was kind of raised in a, when I was young, I was in,

916
01:20:37,712 --> 01:20:41,972
my family didn't have a lot. We, we went through a lot of hardships. So I've always kind of like

917
01:20:41,972 --> 01:20:47,232
known that I'm not, I'll be fine. It doesn't really matter what happens to me. And that's a

918
01:20:47,232 --> 01:20:52,272
bit where this fire comes from of like, Hey, if we're not fighting for the best tool, I don't care.

919
01:20:52,272 --> 01:20:57,672
like I don't you know I hear you that people are using it around the world and everything

920
01:20:57,672 --> 01:21:04,072
and I 100% you know I believe that's true and I think that's beautiful and maybe you're right

921
01:21:04,072 --> 01:21:09,472
if Bitcoin can be fixed as it is and it's already somewhat distributed and these things are happening

922
01:21:09,472 --> 01:21:15,192
I would love to see that florist too and maybe me and my friends are idiots and this will die off

923
01:21:15,192 --> 01:21:22,092
or whatever I don't really care I'm not in this to be right I'm just gonna like navigate day by day

924
01:21:22,092 --> 01:21:28,052
and for me right now it's like that thing is so far gone and even though it has those network

925
01:21:28,052 --> 01:21:33,212
effects even though there are so many people that have good values behind it and that are doing

926
01:21:33,212 --> 01:21:41,952
you know good things for bitcoin it just feels uh too far gone and uh but you know i'm happy just

927
01:21:41,952 --> 01:21:47,372
to keep observing right now i'm excited just to get mining on this new chain it's you know

928
01:21:47,372 --> 01:22:06,212
From my perspective, it's like, oh my God, it's like we get to start over again. We get to figure out where we went wrong, figure out how to keep mining more decentralized, get more people mining on their own templates. So I feel like we're taking all what we've learned from Bitcoin and that's integrated into this fork.

929
01:22:06,212 --> 01:22:12,192
I don't see it as like a brand new thing centralized by Luke because he's the guy who's like pushing the code.

930
01:22:12,352 --> 01:22:16,232
But at the end of the day, individuals have to choose to run the software.

931
01:22:16,832 --> 01:22:17,792
And there's other options.

932
01:22:17,892 --> 01:22:18,792
Anyone could fork.

933
01:22:18,892 --> 01:22:21,152
We could leave him and go back to Bitcoin Core.

934
01:22:21,932 --> 01:22:24,332
So there is options in the space.

935
01:22:24,452 --> 01:22:30,952
And I don't see it as, you know, there ain't being any issue with their big kind of a single finger head or whatever.

936
01:22:31,292 --> 01:22:31,852
Yeah, I don't know.

937
01:22:32,432 --> 01:22:34,592
I definitely appreciate everything you're saying.

938
01:22:34,592 --> 01:22:38,612
And I, yeah, I understand why it's a tough call.

939
01:22:38,612 --> 01:23:03,152
No, and likewise, my hope for the future going forward for this channel to begin with, and for me personally, is that I can be, I still intend to keep talking to people on both sides of this fight, because I don't think the fight is over.

940
01:23:03,152 --> 01:23:09,292
I think that there's a lot to be learned.

941
01:23:11,632 --> 01:23:21,952
And as I said, I think where we differ is how doomed we think Bitcoin is at this point.

942
01:23:22,312 --> 01:23:25,492
And I think there's still a chance that it survives.

943
01:23:25,492 --> 01:23:33,092
however I might not be as convinced as I was before I started signaling for BIP-110

944
01:23:33,092 --> 01:23:39,892
or especially not as before Core V30 which I thought was just a weird thing to do

945
01:23:39,892 --> 01:23:45,272
with such obvious opposition from the plebs

946
01:23:45,272 --> 01:23:50,772
so we'll see what happens going forward

947
01:23:50,772 --> 01:24:11,872
And I think this is true for most of the people who were vocal in this fight, including yourself, that we are honest people who are honest to ourselves and not afraid of reputational damage or all this bullshit, which I'm not afraid of at all.

948
01:24:11,872 --> 01:24:17,992
because like if if I was even able to be afraid of reputational damage,

949
01:24:17,992 --> 01:24:21,472
I wouldn't have been like if you're honest to yourself,

950
01:24:21,472 --> 01:24:25,112
you can't think about things like that because then you're not honest to yourself.

951
01:24:25,112 --> 01:24:30,352
Like if you're playing some kind of tactics game for likes like that's not

952
01:24:31,272 --> 01:24:32,672
that's not even on the table.

953
01:24:32,672 --> 01:24:38,792
And I hope that I can still have these honest conversations with with good people,

954
01:24:38,792 --> 01:24:40,432
regardless of

955
01:24:40,432 --> 01:24:43,892
whether they end up on

956
01:24:43,892 --> 01:24:46,392
Legacy Chain or Blake2B Chain

957
01:24:46,392 --> 01:24:48,372
or whatever we'll call them in the future

958
01:24:48,372 --> 01:24:50,172
Well and

959
01:24:50,172 --> 01:24:52,372
obviously I mean the fact that you've

960
01:24:52,372 --> 01:24:54,192
even chosen to have this interview means

961
01:24:54,192 --> 01:24:56,292
you haven't deemed this like a complete

962
01:24:56,292 --> 01:24:57,072
shit coin

963
01:24:57,072 --> 01:25:00,492
There's a mutual respect

964
01:25:00,492 --> 01:25:01,312
which is interesting

965
01:25:01,312 --> 01:25:04,172
I said this earlier, it's interesting that

966
01:25:04,172 --> 01:25:06,372
people's opinions of me

967
01:25:06,372 --> 01:25:07,692
are either like oh wow

968
01:25:07,692 --> 01:25:14,252
like you're doing great work or you're like an idiot you know and it's it's like one of the two

969
01:25:14,252 --> 01:25:19,652
is i guess true it's depending on how you look at it but uh you know this is the bitcoin infinity

970
01:25:19,652 --> 01:25:27,212
show and you're talking to someone who's on a fork of bitcoin you know like there's something

971
01:25:27,212 --> 01:25:35,092
to consider there you said it you said it not me yeah so so many people are considering this like

972
01:25:35,092 --> 01:25:41,232
doa or whatever but yet when i'm having conversations with individuals who are looking

973
01:25:41,232 --> 01:25:46,952
at it level-headed they're hanging on to both forks and gonna wait and see i see a lot of that

974
01:25:46,952 --> 01:25:52,032
people that are like they're not convinced but they're they're not also they're also not so

975
01:25:52,032 --> 01:25:58,052
convinced that this is just a stupid shit coin that they should off offload right away to me

976
01:25:58,052 --> 01:26:03,732
it's like it doesn't matter what we call it or what you know it's just it's it's a fork you know

977
01:26:03,732 --> 01:26:10,852
a fork is a fork it doesn't mean this one's right or wrong necessarily and as individuals the people

978
01:26:10,852 --> 01:26:19,252
who want bitcoin as money will decide and to me that is the bitcoin community and uh right now

979
01:26:19,252 --> 01:26:23,392
it feels like it's not a lot of people but i think it's a lot more than we would realize

980
01:26:23,392 --> 01:26:30,072
you know i like looking at the comment sections and and the replies and it's like to me it feels

981
01:26:30,072 --> 01:26:37,532
like there's a ton of people gearing up for this. I'm excited. And yeah, grateful that

982
01:26:37,532 --> 01:26:41,472
you're, you know, allowing space for this talk, because it's really easy to just kind

983
01:26:41,472 --> 01:26:57,282
of fall into a camp and say Oh you guys are idiots or whatever And to be open minded I think is good for all of us Yeah absolutely And I mean that would have been moronic on so many levels

984
01:26:57,722 --> 01:27:03,442
Like, I signaled for BIP-110 because I thought it was a good idea.

985
01:27:03,702 --> 01:27:07,682
And I thought it would have been good if it came through

986
01:27:07,682 --> 01:27:12,682
because that would have even further cemented my belief

987
01:27:13,382 --> 01:27:15,302
in that Bitcoin is sufficiently decentralized.

988
01:27:15,702 --> 01:27:17,222
I still think it is.

989
01:27:17,322 --> 01:27:20,602
I don't think it has been disproven by Bitcoin 10 failing,

990
01:27:21,622 --> 01:27:30,762
but I will try to keep the conversation going

991
01:27:30,762 --> 01:27:34,682
and I respect what you do 100%

992
01:27:34,682 --> 01:27:37,762
and I will never call

993
01:27:37,762 --> 01:27:41,702
I will refrain from calling people shitcoiners

994
01:27:41,702 --> 01:27:43,222
more going into the future

995
01:27:43,222 --> 01:27:46,782
that's my big takeaway from this I guess

996
01:27:46,782 --> 01:27:49,622
I have a question for you

997
01:27:49,622 --> 01:27:50,862
I'd love for you

998
01:27:50,862 --> 01:27:52,362
if you're willing

999
01:27:52,362 --> 01:27:56,662
so assuming let's say we fast forward a couple months

1000
01:27:56,662 --> 01:27:58,802
and this fork isn't anything big

1001
01:27:58,802 --> 01:28:00,442
no one really cares about it

1002
01:28:00,442 --> 01:28:01,862
and whatever

1003
01:28:01,862 --> 01:28:04,162
just not really considering the fork too much

1004
01:28:04,162 --> 01:28:07,582
What do you see the way forward with Bitcoin as you know it?

1005
01:28:07,702 --> 01:28:09,662
What would that next movement look like?

1006
01:28:09,722 --> 01:28:12,822
What would be the next attempt to get us back on track?

1007
01:28:13,262 --> 01:28:16,162
Because you're obviously someone who sees the issues with core.

1008
01:28:16,482 --> 01:28:17,882
You see these problems.

1009
01:28:18,222 --> 01:28:20,482
What do you think the next attempt would look like?

1010
01:28:20,502 --> 01:28:22,722
Or how do we get back on track?

1011
01:28:22,802 --> 01:28:25,962
Or how would we know for sure that Bitcoin is decentralized?

1012
01:28:26,782 --> 01:28:28,402
How would you come back from this?

1013
01:28:28,482 --> 01:28:29,822
What might that look like?

1014
01:28:29,862 --> 01:28:32,082
What would be the ideal outcome?

1015
01:28:33,222 --> 01:28:33,902
Thank you.

1016
01:28:33,902 --> 01:28:34,862
That's a great question.

1017
01:28:34,862 --> 01:28:44,222
And what I would want is for these alternative implementations to gain more tractions.

1018
01:28:44,442 --> 01:28:48,742
I hope in the future that Core is not the default implementation.

1019
01:28:49,122 --> 01:28:54,322
I hope that there's like five of them at least and that none of them have a majority.

1020
01:28:54,942 --> 01:29:02,082
I also hope that Ocean survives all this and that the Datum protocol is still a thing in Bitcoin

1021
01:29:02,082 --> 01:29:07,402
and that more and more hash mongers choose to mine with them or similar things

1022
01:29:07,402 --> 01:29:10,522
so that we get actual minor decentralization

1023
01:29:10,522 --> 01:29:14,142
because I think that's the bigger issue, always was the bigger issue.

1024
01:29:14,142 --> 01:29:18,862
And meanwhile, of course, I hope there's no other sneaky attack

1025
01:29:18,862 --> 01:29:24,622
or that someone puts CSAM in an op return just to fuck around with people

1026
01:29:24,622 --> 01:29:26,362
or something stupid like that.

1027
01:29:26,482 --> 01:29:27,382
Of course not.

1028
01:29:27,382 --> 01:29:37,002
But I think, or rather, I know that there will be another fight and that there will be another battle to be won.

1029
01:29:38,262 --> 01:29:47,882
And I also know that you will have that on, now I say you and me again, but there will be such a battle on the other chain as well.

1030
01:29:48,522 --> 01:29:54,402
Inevitably, forks are a natural phenomenon that happens in Bitcoin.

1031
01:29:54,402 --> 01:30:03,522
It's a thing that is more important, really, than the protocol itself.

1032
01:30:03,762 --> 01:30:08,822
It is the solution to the Byzantine general's problem, in a way, because if you think that

1033
01:30:08,822 --> 01:30:17,102
the messenger whispering in your ear is not delivering the right message, your right to

1034
01:30:17,102 --> 01:30:21,622
fork off and not trust him anymore is more crucial than anything.

1035
01:30:21,622 --> 01:30:31,082
It is the fact that this is a leaderless system so that you get to decide what Bitcoin is to you is more important than anything.

1036
01:30:32,222 --> 01:30:32,922
So, yeah.

1037
01:30:33,902 --> 01:30:46,002
But for legacy chain moving forward, hope for new implementations, as I said, and more minor decentralization through Datum and Ocean and similar things.

1038
01:30:46,342 --> 01:30:48,122
That's what I hope for.

1039
01:30:48,122 --> 01:31:02,282
And I hope also, I hope that some of these big entities that are obviously malicious do giant rug pulls and wreck a lot of people.

1040
01:31:02,422 --> 01:31:08,242
That might sound harsh, but that's how markets are supposed to work.

1041
01:31:08,242 --> 01:31:14,342
The problem with the fiat system is that people like this can get bailed out and that we have a bigger problem.

1042
01:31:14,342 --> 01:31:18,862
like they're not kicking the can down the road they're rolling the snowball down the hill like

1043
01:31:18,862 --> 01:31:25,322
the 2008 crashes a crash is a good example when the democrats and the republicans chose the easy

1044
01:31:25,322 --> 01:31:30,942
path out and bail out the bankers instead of fucking putting them in jail or worse like because

1045
01:31:30,942 --> 01:31:38,462
they should have they were and they should have let the let the fucking system take the blow

1046
01:31:38,462 --> 01:31:44,802
because the whole problem with politicians solving problems

1047
01:31:44,802 --> 01:31:48,682
is that they create bigger problems every time they try to do so

1048
01:31:48,682 --> 01:31:52,382
by not letting people learn from their mistakes.

1049
01:31:53,562 --> 01:31:59,142
So yeah, I hope everyone buying paper Bitcoins gets wrecked at some point.

1050
01:31:59,142 --> 01:32:03,782
I hope that some guy at Coinbase fucks off and buys an island.

1051
01:32:03,782 --> 01:32:12,462
And I hope that the balance sheets of all these treasury companies just get wiped at some point.

1052
01:32:12,722 --> 01:32:25,522
Like the way I always saw this is like Bitcoin is sort of like the final scene of Fight Club, you know, where the Pixies song starts playing and all the skyscrapers fall down.

1053
01:32:25,742 --> 01:32:29,922
And the guy has just shot himself through the face, but he still gets the girl.

1054
01:32:30,822 --> 01:32:33,282
Yeah, that's what I'm looking forward to.

1055
01:32:33,282 --> 01:32:41,782
that that's my optimistic future yeah so I I heard like everything you're saying makes sense I think

1056
01:32:41,782 --> 01:32:47,922
that's the stuff that a lot of us would hope for in Bitcoin and you use that word a lot you said I

1057
01:32:47,922 --> 01:32:53,602
hope this I hope this I hope this I hope this and then we talked about you know politically or the

1058
01:32:53,602 --> 01:32:59,742
it's like it would have been good if they would have done this like so ideally that stuff will

1059
01:32:59,742 --> 01:33:05,562
happen, but what are the steps to get there? Like outside of just like we could all talk and say,

1060
01:33:05,642 --> 01:33:11,542
I hope it becomes more decentralized. And my experience in life has been things that become

1061
01:33:11,542 --> 01:33:15,722
centralized, become more decentralized, right? If we look at our corporate structures,

1062
01:33:16,302 --> 01:33:20,762
they just, you know, and it's like you said, instead of doing bailouts, we could have just

1063
01:33:20,762 --> 01:33:26,582
felt the blow. Well, we hoped and it didn't change, right? It's like in our political system,

1064
01:33:26,582 --> 01:33:35,762
I'm telling, you know, in my point of view, there's no reason to hope for that system anymore because we don't have any actual agency.

1065
01:33:36,522 --> 01:33:45,362
And so in all that, while I agree with like that would be ideal that mining became more decentralized and there would be more implementations for running a Bitcoin node.

1066
01:33:45,742 --> 01:33:51,122
I don't understand how we get there because this thing has only gone in one direction since the beginning.

1067
01:33:51,122 --> 01:33:58,422
right? Mining has become more decentralized outside of a couple of big events, China bans

1068
01:33:58,422 --> 01:34:05,082
or whatever. Overall, this stuff has become more centralized. And I think that's a big reason why

1069
01:34:05,082 --> 01:34:11,942
Bitcoin is different now with this fork than it was in 2017. I think a lot's changed in that time.

1070
01:34:12,082 --> 01:34:17,582
I think there's been more corporate, there's more money in it. There's more of the fiat game stuff.

1071
01:34:17,582 --> 01:34:25,362
So I guess my point is, it's like I heard you say a lot of things that you hope to see, but I don't hear any real like actionable steps.

1072
01:34:25,662 --> 01:34:29,302
Like, how do we suddenly end up with more core implementations?

1073
01:34:29,862 --> 01:34:32,442
People can write them, but how do you get them out?

1074
01:34:32,442 --> 01:34:36,642
Is it a matter of like voices that are loud enough?

1075
01:34:36,762 --> 01:34:44,662
And it's like, well, as far as I could tell, Mechanic and Cratter and Luke did like everything they could to, you know what I'm saying?

1076
01:34:44,662 --> 01:34:51,642
And maybe we're going around in circles, but it's like everything you were hoping for, we already pushed for and it already didn't happen.

1077
01:34:51,642 --> 01:35:00,282
So like, what are the actionable steps? You know, like and I'm with you also, I would love to see the Treasury stuff go away and blow up.

1078
01:35:00,322 --> 01:35:05,922
And I think that's inevitable. And Bitcoin could go up in value a lot, you know, but I don't I don't know.

1079
01:35:06,362 --> 01:35:14,202
I don't know what the actionable steps are for individuals. Like if you know, if you're just whereas with what I'm doing right now, I feel like I get to take action.

1080
01:35:14,662 --> 01:35:21,842
Like I'm choosing I'm like instead of hoping for this thing, I'm choosing the thing that's like, hey, this is an option.

1081
01:35:22,582 --> 01:35:33,372
And I all about hope and and having faith in something But I lost my faith on that side And I don know i don know what there is to keep hoping i don i don know what that would look like

1082
01:35:34,652 --> 01:35:39,452
no and uh yeah that we differ here i think because i think we the way i see it we lost

1083
01:35:39,452 --> 01:35:45,132
the battle but that doesn't necessarily mean that we lost the war and i know a bunch of people that

1084
01:35:45,132 --> 01:35:47,212
We're working on new implementations.

1085
01:35:47,572 --> 01:35:57,472
And I know that the simple fact that some of these problems have even come to light gives me hope.

1086
01:35:58,672 --> 01:36:04,972
The whole datum thing has pointed out to Bitcoiners that the mining is centralized.

1087
01:36:04,972 --> 01:36:08,952
Before that happened, no one was talking about that.

1088
01:36:10,332 --> 01:36:14,172
The spam issue has come to light to Bitcoiners.

1089
01:36:14,172 --> 01:36:17,712
They are more aware of it now than they were two years ago.

1090
01:36:18,012 --> 01:36:18,732
Like, it's obvious.

1091
01:36:19,272 --> 01:36:21,832
And these are the things that give me hope for it.

1092
01:36:22,612 --> 01:36:27,332
Sure, it's small in the beginning, and it takes time for stuff to change.

1093
01:36:27,752 --> 01:36:32,192
But the more awareness there is, the more hopeful I am.

1094
01:36:33,512 --> 01:36:35,812
More education is always needed.

1095
01:36:35,812 --> 01:36:47,632
And I think another big entity crashing, like an FTX crash, for instance, something similar to that, won't name any specific companies, but you know the usual suspects.

1096
01:36:48,212 --> 01:36:50,112
If that happens, that's great.

1097
01:36:51,832 --> 01:36:58,792
Fiat games, like trying to bridge between fiat and Bitcoin, it's this square peg in a round hole thing.

1098
01:36:58,792 --> 01:37:01,652
because if we're going to go deep here,

1099
01:37:01,772 --> 01:37:03,932
I bet you heard me say this before,

1100
01:37:03,932 --> 01:37:08,172
but I don't even view Bitcoins or sats as being ownable at all

1101
01:37:08,172 --> 01:37:10,192
since they're just a string of information.

1102
01:37:10,752 --> 01:37:15,192
Like the UTXOs, you can see them on the time chain,

1103
01:37:15,312 --> 01:37:19,012
but the time chain is only ever a historic document

1104
01:37:19,012 --> 01:37:21,252
of what happened to each Satoshi.

1105
01:37:21,992 --> 01:37:24,132
It's never the Satoshi itself.

1106
01:37:24,252 --> 01:37:25,452
That is not on chain.

1107
01:37:25,452 --> 01:37:30,552
The ability to move it is the actual powerful aspect of a Satoshi.

1108
01:37:31,092 --> 01:37:36,772
And that is always in some person's head because it's just a string of information.

1109
01:37:36,972 --> 01:37:46,492
And even if it's on a hardware wallet or on paper, the knowledge of where that hardware wallet or that paper is, is a secret that you keep from everyone else.

1110
01:37:46,492 --> 01:38:02,332
The way I see it is you can't own a Bitcoin, but you can act as if you do if you A, believe that no one else has access to the secret that you have, and B, that you don't believe the system will change to such an extent that it will render that Satoshi useless.

1111
01:38:02,812 --> 01:38:10,112
If you believe those two things, then you can act as if you own the Bitcoin, but you can't actually own it because it's just information.

1112
01:38:10,112 --> 01:38:22,172
And it points out to humanity that money never needed to be anything but information, which is totally mind-blowing when you think about what that implies.

1113
01:38:22,952 --> 01:38:33,892
We were always able to interact with one another, to trade with one another in a completely honest way where there's no possibility to cheat.

1114
01:38:33,892 --> 01:38:37,712
And that's the beauty of the system.

1115
01:38:38,092 --> 01:38:42,612
And it illuminates so many other truths about trade.

1116
01:38:42,892 --> 01:38:47,892
Like it illuminates the fact that the true nature of the free market is deflation.

1117
01:38:48,352 --> 01:38:51,752
That all prices ought to drop forever, forever.

1118
01:38:52,052 --> 01:38:54,612
Because humans get better at doing things.

1119
01:38:55,152 --> 01:38:58,452
So therefore, everything should cost you less over time.

1120
01:38:59,012 --> 01:39:01,332
It does all of these things.

1121
01:39:01,332 --> 01:39:08,852
And it also points out that aggression is bad in the sense that, you know, this is another one of my talking points.

1122
01:39:08,932 --> 01:39:16,332
I can point a gun at your head and say, give me all your Bitcoins and you can give me a minuscule amount and I have no way of knowing how much you actually had.

1123
01:39:16,872 --> 01:39:22,572
So it changes the incentive structure around aggression.

1124
01:39:22,972 --> 01:39:27,412
It's very hard to steal something that you cannot know is even there.

1125
01:39:27,412 --> 01:39:43,772
So in that sense, it points out to people that being honest and trading is better for everyone than aggression, always.

1126
01:39:44,512 --> 01:39:46,632
And theft is wrong and all of these things.

1127
01:39:47,332 --> 01:39:53,412
And it allows for such a utopian view of the future.

1128
01:39:53,412 --> 01:40:01,192
So it's truly, when I say Bitcoin is hope, and when I hear you say it, it's not, that means something to me.

1129
01:40:01,692 --> 01:40:03,232
That is super powerful.

1130
01:40:03,352 --> 01:40:20,612
It's literally hope because it has shown, it has illuminated a path forward for humanity where it is this meme with the shoes between the two roads, like the dark stormy castle or the beautiful future.

1131
01:40:20,732 --> 01:40:21,872
It's exactly that.

1132
01:40:21,872 --> 01:40:29,952
And my passion for it has taken a hit, but it's not gone.

1133
01:40:30,072 --> 01:40:31,352
It's very far from gone.

1134
01:40:31,512 --> 01:40:35,672
And I think regardless of how this whole thing plays out,

1135
01:40:35,792 --> 01:40:41,772
I feel super privileged to be able to have a front row seat to see this whole thing play out.

1136
01:40:42,512 --> 01:40:46,652
And I'm grateful to everyone I've interviewed.

1137
01:40:46,932 --> 01:40:50,152
I'm grateful to everyone I've met, except the assholes.

1138
01:40:50,152 --> 01:40:58,112
but yeah and i still think the i don't know if you heard the dicks pussies and assholes rants

1139
01:40:58,112 --> 01:41:07,612
that i took from uh from uh team america world police like uh bitcoin is has three characters

1140
01:41:07,612 --> 01:41:13,672
yeah um we need the dicks to yeah i don't need to do that again and it's sort of yeah

1141
01:41:13,672 --> 01:41:16,752
R-rated, so we shouldn't do that here.

1142
01:41:17,312 --> 01:41:20,192
It checks and balances of sorts.

1143
01:41:20,692 --> 01:41:21,392
Yeah, exactly.

1144
01:41:24,332 --> 01:41:26,792
It's super exciting to watch it unfold.

1145
01:41:28,712 --> 01:41:30,192
Nobody really knows.

1146
01:41:30,392 --> 01:41:34,392
When you talk about that split between a utopia or the dark,

1147
01:41:34,692 --> 01:41:36,652
I just feel like we're doing it again.

1148
01:41:38,052 --> 01:41:40,292
We're walking towards this mirage.

1149
01:41:40,292 --> 01:41:44,612
We're on this trail together and this one mirage is starting to look kind of fake.

1150
01:41:44,712 --> 01:41:46,352
And now I see another one over here.

1151
01:41:47,292 --> 01:41:48,972
And yeah, I don't know.

1152
01:41:49,132 --> 01:41:54,792
I agree that this has brought a lot of awareness, but a lot of those people that are becoming

1153
01:41:54,792 --> 01:41:58,592
aware are also coming to mind on Blake2B.

1154
01:41:59,272 --> 01:42:04,532
So I don't know if it's strengthening Bitcoin's awareness or not at the end of the day, I

1155
01:42:04,532 --> 01:42:06,052
guess, but we'll have to find out.

1156
01:42:06,052 --> 01:42:10,292
one thing I think it inevitably does

1157
01:42:10,292 --> 01:42:12,132
is that it educates

1158
01:42:12,132 --> 01:42:13,532
at least some people

1159
01:42:13,532 --> 01:42:15,492
like people will pay attention

1160
01:42:15,492 --> 01:42:17,852
and people will start to do their homework

1161
01:42:17,852 --> 01:42:19,352
and that's always a good thing

1162
01:42:19,352 --> 01:42:21,432
and I think there are more

1163
01:42:21,432 --> 01:42:23,812
good-hearted Bitcoiners out there

1164
01:42:23,812 --> 01:42:25,672
than you might believe

1165
01:42:25,672 --> 01:42:27,892
from just watching Twitter feeds

1166
01:42:27,892 --> 01:42:29,672
Twitter incentivizes

1167
01:42:29,672 --> 01:42:30,812
conflict

1168
01:42:30,812 --> 01:42:33,252
because that's good for Twitter

1169
01:42:33,252 --> 01:42:35,392
right

1170
01:42:35,392 --> 01:42:51,932
But there are a lot of good people out there. There are a lot of bad ideas out there. Some of the good people have bad ideas. But still, we live in the timeline we live in, and we have to make amends with it.

1171
01:42:51,932 --> 01:42:53,972
I think, yeah

1172
01:42:53,972 --> 01:42:59,592
I feel that you're a good soul

1173
01:42:59,592 --> 01:43:01,732
and you have good intentions

1174
01:43:01,732 --> 01:43:04,072
and I think that's more important

1175
01:43:04,072 --> 01:43:06,312
than anything else

1176
01:43:06,312 --> 01:43:07,592
and I hope

1177
01:43:07,592 --> 01:43:10,132
my hope is that I can stay friends

1178
01:43:10,132 --> 01:43:12,392
with the good people on either side

1179
01:43:12,392 --> 01:43:13,752
of any fork in this

1180
01:43:13,752 --> 01:43:16,552
regardless of how things play out

1181
01:43:16,552 --> 01:43:19,232
Yeah, and we're going to be

1182
01:43:19,232 --> 01:43:21,852
probably welcoming a view the whole time

1183
01:43:21,852 --> 01:43:24,812
because you've been kind to everyone

1184
01:43:24,812 --> 01:43:26,112
and just been kind of humble

1185
01:43:26,112 --> 01:43:27,312
and sharing your point of view.

1186
01:43:27,352 --> 01:43:28,412
And that's all I want to do.

1187
01:43:28,472 --> 01:43:29,552
I'm not trying to tell anyone

1188
01:43:29,552 --> 01:43:31,052
what's the right way or anything,

1189
01:43:31,052 --> 01:43:31,932
because I don't know.

1190
01:43:33,112 --> 01:43:35,532
Just, you know, we're all making our best guess.

1191
01:43:35,912 --> 01:43:38,672
And we're definitely all learning this stuff.

1192
01:43:38,772 --> 01:43:40,852
I mean, I'm learning more all the time,

1193
01:43:41,152 --> 01:43:42,772
you know, just watching,

1194
01:43:42,912 --> 01:43:44,052
just witnessing it happen

1195
01:43:44,052 --> 01:43:46,172
and understanding even what a hard fork is

1196
01:43:46,172 --> 01:43:47,652
versus a soft fork and everything.

1197
01:43:47,772 --> 01:43:49,232
A lot of this is new to me.

1198
01:43:49,232 --> 01:43:52,012
And it's a fantastic time for learning.

1199
01:43:53,392 --> 01:43:54,912
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

1200
01:43:56,032 --> 01:44:00,672
We've been going for, yeah, one hour and 46 minutes now.

1201
01:44:00,932 --> 01:44:07,432
So before we run this out, is there anything else that we haven't talked about yet that you want to bring up?

1202
01:44:09,482 --> 01:44:15,322
I think we've touched on most of the stuff that we figured we would probably want to talk about.

1203
01:44:16,402 --> 01:44:20,422
You know, I think we have a different point of view, but we both have good intentions.

1204
01:44:20,422 --> 01:44:27,502
And that's the people I want to keep having conversations with, because that means that they're open-minded enough to consider what's possible.

1205
01:44:27,822 --> 01:44:29,442
And I appreciate that.

1206
01:44:29,562 --> 01:44:29,662
Yeah.

1207
01:44:30,402 --> 01:44:38,662
Yeah, let's already now plan for having this conversation again a year or so from now, maybe even six months from now.

1208
01:44:38,662 --> 01:44:41,882
and just to catch up and see how things play out.

1209
01:44:42,582 --> 01:44:45,082
I've absolutely loved this conversation, Dave,

1210
01:44:45,102 --> 01:44:48,922
and I will push extra for this pod

1211
01:44:48,922 --> 01:44:51,882
because I think it's one that people need to hear.

1212
01:44:53,622 --> 01:45:01,122
I think things aren't as straightforward as many people think.

1213
01:45:01,122 --> 01:45:08,202
And yeah, if we get the privilege of making people think a little,

1214
01:45:08,202 --> 01:45:11,002
then that's worth it in itself.

1215
01:45:12,262 --> 01:45:14,202
I agree. Thank you so much, Nick.

1216
01:45:15,602 --> 01:45:18,042
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

1217
01:45:18,622 --> 01:45:22,042
You should still like, subscribe, and brush your teeth and all of that.

1218
01:45:22,462 --> 01:45:24,842
And thank you very much, Dave, for coming on.

1219
01:45:25,102 --> 01:45:26,702
And see you on the next one.

1220
01:45:27,722 --> 01:45:29,062
Thanks for watching. Have a good one.

1221
01:45:38,202 --> 01:46:08,182
Thank you.