Bitcoin Won't Be Money Until 2080 | Cory Klippsten | BIS #219

1
00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,000
Corey, a warm welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

2
00:00:04,100 --> 00:00:04,820
Nice to have you here.

3
00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:06,220
It's great to see you.

4
00:00:06,340 --> 00:00:07,220
It must be summer.

5
00:00:07,580 --> 00:00:10,060
My hair is too long and I'm doing a show with you.

6
00:00:10,220 --> 00:00:11,640
Yeah, and my beard is too long.

7
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,240
So that's also a dead giveaway, I guess.

8
00:00:14,500 --> 00:00:16,020
It is absolutely summer.

9
00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,840
Yeah, I should say this is the summer edition of the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

10
00:00:20,300 --> 00:00:20,780
There you go.

11
00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:25,880
You do look like you're in front of some sort of Bitcoin altar of sorts, a shrine to Satoshi

12
00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:27,560
perhaps with the candles on the sides.

13
00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,540
Yeah, you could call it that.

14
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:37,780
some kind of cupboard. Anyway, it's been a while since you were last on. So could you give us an

15
00:00:37,780 --> 00:00:43,240
update on what's going on at Swan, please? Yeah, great, great place to start. I would say

16
00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:51,080
we're recording here on Friday, July 24. And we kicked something off earlier this week on Tuesday,

17
00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:58,600
the 21st, that we are calling 50 Days for Freedom. And basically, it's 50 days where we

18
00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:04,340
bring the best that we have to offer, educating people about Bitcoin, spurring a new wave of

19
00:01:04,340 --> 00:01:13,160
Bitcoin adoption, killing the bears, putting the bear to rest. And my part for doing this was

20
00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:19,460
writing, I guess, the third mission statement of SWAN or kind of an update. And so if you think of

21
00:01:19,460 --> 00:01:25,880
them as, as is normal, when you get deeper into a company, deeper into an effort, deeper into a

22
00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:32,380
topic, when you write something, the next book you write ends up being a superset of the subjects

23
00:01:32,380 --> 00:01:37,740
and topics that you covered in the first one. And then this is the third one. So I see them kind of

24
00:01:37,740 --> 00:01:42,720
stepping up. It was 10 million Bitcoiners, the intransigent minority back in 2020. And then I

25
00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:48,960
think in 22 or 23, I wrote The Race to Avoid the War, which was included all the themes and concepts

26
00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,760
of the first one, but took it up a level. And then I think this one, The Battle for Monetary

27
00:01:52,760 --> 00:02:00,720
independence really takes it up another level from there. And basically what the article is about

28
00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:08,040
is a bit of a comparison between the founders of America, of the United States of America,

29
00:02:08,220 --> 00:02:14,420
250 years ago in 1776 with the Declaration of Independence and how the work of their generation

30
00:02:14,420 --> 00:02:20,920
was achieving political independence and how I see parallels between that and the work of our

31
00:02:20,920 --> 00:02:27,520
generation now, which is global, not just in the US, but our humanities work of this generation is

32
00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:32,880
to achieve monetary independence. And that is what we are working to do through Bitcoin. So

33
00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:38,780
the catchy phrase, you know, 50 days for freedom, people doing lots of different things for those

34
00:02:38,780 --> 00:02:47,360
50 days, we restarted Cafe Bitcoin on Spaces. So I'm hosting that every weekday at 3pm UK time,

35
00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:55,540
uh 10 a.m eastern 7 a.m pacific uh 5 a.m hawaii if we had somebody in from hawaii yesterday and

36
00:02:55,540 --> 00:03:02,280
i was like go back to sleep jeez um and so that is interesting i'd say the you know putting our

37
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:07,260
money where our mouth is the first thing that we did actually was we rolled out um we cut our fee

38
00:03:07,260 --> 00:03:14,900
in half our buy fee so it's uh 50 bips 0.50 percent on all buys at swan for the summer

39
00:03:14,900 --> 00:03:21,900
which is by far the least expensive way to buy Bitcoin into self-custody in the United States.

40
00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:28,740
It's cheaper than Coinbase, cheaper than any other major source that you can find for retail,

41
00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:33,860
which is pretty cool. As always, we promote and educate the heck out of self-custody and we put

42
00:03:33,860 --> 00:03:39,380
our money where our mouth is there. We pay the network fees on withdrawals as we always have

43
00:03:39,380 --> 00:03:45,920
since inception going back to 2020. So it's just an amazing way to stack some coin in the bear.

44
00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:51,560
And, you know, I stand behind it with two feet and we're here to help people set up self-custody.

45
00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:57,580
We're here for collaborative custody with Swan Vault, you know, just really aggressively on the

46
00:03:57,580 --> 00:04:04,420
mission to educate and help people take advantage of, you know, what just feels like a generational

47
00:04:04,420 --> 00:04:09,700
buying opportunity where there are a hundred narratives from the last year that should make

48
00:04:09,700 --> 00:04:14,580
Bitcoin go to the moon. And it just seems like it's all going to come around sometime this fall

49
00:04:14,580 --> 00:04:19,100
or early next year or whatever. And like, you just really want to be stacking this summer. So

50
00:04:19,100 --> 00:04:27,340
I'll leave it there. The last thing I would say is my Twitter DMs are often hard to keep up with.

51
00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:32,580
And amazingly, the easiest way to get in touch with me if you want some Bitcoin resources or

52
00:04:32,580 --> 00:04:37,680
help with swan or whatever is my email because nobody emails anymore so just hit me literally

53
00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:43,280
cory at swan.com and you can even misspell it and add an e if you want to but it's c-o-r-y at swan.com

54
00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:51,600
so that's the end of my uh swan shill period and uh let's get into it thank you uh yeah just to

55
00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:59,160
double click on something i'm unaware of the kyc situation in in the u.s like so how much kyc

56
00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:06,900
are you forced to do on your on your customers it's not as bad as the eu but it's still considerable

57
00:05:06,900 --> 00:05:14,300
i mean they know who you are if you're buying bitcoin through a you know a a normal company

58
00:05:14,300 --> 00:05:22,700
that has an address and a website you're kyc'd yeah that's it's a problem everywhere so what i

59
00:05:22,700 --> 00:05:28,680
would say is like you know the best you can the best you can do is like minimize you can do a few

60
00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:34,140
things. So you can take the absolute minimum. And if like some of your partners claim that they need

61
00:05:34,140 --> 00:05:39,900
something, fight back and minimize what you collect. Another very important thing that we've

62
00:05:39,900 --> 00:05:44,140
done from inception, which is not what most crypto companies and a lot of wallet companies

63
00:05:44,140 --> 00:05:49,040
and hardware device companies did is, is segregate your marketing database from your customer

64
00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:54,380
database. Cause the last thing, I mean, everybody has a huge marketing list that doesn't mean shit.

65
00:05:54,380 --> 00:06:04,040
There's not, you know, if you have 500,000 emails or something like we do, then, you know, it doesn't mean much that somebody is on a marketing list to get a Bitcoin newsletter.

66
00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:09,760
What you want to make sure is that you segregate transaction data from your marketing database and keep those separate.

67
00:06:09,900 --> 00:06:19,340
So what we've always done is there's we know nothing about you in our database and there's no honeypot and nothing you can steal because you know who somebody is.

68
00:06:19,420 --> 00:06:22,800
You can't ever tie that to their transaction data and like how much they bought.

69
00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:42,120
And nobody on our team, other than like the actual rep going through seven levels of like login and, you know, OAuth and physical device proof and OTP and all that kind of stuff can ever see, can look up the information about somebody like in Salesforce that's tied to their transaction data.

70
00:06:42,220 --> 00:06:45,180
So that's just extremely well guarded throughout the company.

71
00:06:45,180 --> 00:06:49,060
so you have to do smart things like that and just make sure that like if there is

72
00:06:49,060 --> 00:06:53,280
a breach of you know a marketing vendor or something like that that it doesn't affect that

73
00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:59,300
and then you can also attack it the way that you know um just doing as much as you can to encourage

74
00:06:59,300 --> 00:07:06,320
privacy once the coins are in your possession like on chain and so what we did is you know gosh

75
00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:14,360
four years ago gg actually when he worked here uh took the lead on building um a trustless x pub

76
00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:22,580
extraction tool where you can uh so basically feed in an xpub prove that we never see the xpub

77
00:07:22,580 --> 00:07:27,980
but we can extract a thousand addresses from it and every one of your withdrawals goes to a new

78
00:07:27,980 --> 00:07:36,280
address so no address for you is pretty good privacy yeah i mean uh a best practice for all

79
00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:43,420
bitcoin companies i think is to to avoid creating honeypots in in general because honeypots are way

80
00:07:43,420 --> 00:07:50,380
more dangerous than people think they are i heard of this i i always miss miss tell this story but a

81
00:07:50,380 --> 00:07:58,080
a dutch guy told me about uh his village during world war ii where they they had had a a voluntary

82
00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:06,300
like collecting of of uh like like a population count or a voluntary population count where you

83
00:08:06,300 --> 00:08:12,500
uh wrote down your name your address and your religious affiliation and then all of that was

84
00:08:12,500 --> 00:08:19,080
stored like usually in the church of each town, if I remember correctly here.

85
00:08:19,540 --> 00:08:22,540
Sorry to the guy because I'm always mistelling this story.

86
00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:28,560
But when the Nazis came, they took all these papers and they looked up where all the Jews were

87
00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,100
and they could track them down.

88
00:08:30,100 --> 00:08:49,804
In this particular town this guy ancestor burned down the building that the honeypot was in And they had like 40 more Holocaust survivors or something in that town because they couldn get the information So like honeypots are scary when

89
00:08:49,804 --> 00:08:55,204
you think about what they really are. If some malicious actor wants to get you, I mean, the

90
00:08:55,204 --> 00:09:01,504
wrench attacks in France here, we shouldn't talk about them too much, I think, because it's such a

91
00:09:01,504 --> 00:09:08,804
dumb thing, but a government institution leaking one thing and Bitcoin hardware wallet manufacturers

92
00:09:08,804 --> 00:09:14,024
leaking another thing. And the criminal can put two and two together and start attacking people.

93
00:09:14,184 --> 00:09:21,644
And it's pretty awful. Yeah. Look, I actually addressed this on Cafe Bitcoin yesterday,

94
00:09:22,064 --> 00:09:27,224
but because it's in the interest of certain people and certain companies, not necessarily

95
00:09:27,224 --> 00:09:31,284
nefarious people want to get the word out and you know there is a lot of fear mongering around these

96
00:09:31,284 --> 00:09:35,864
things as far as i can tell and i've asked journalists about this and i've tried to find

97
00:09:35,864 --> 00:09:41,344
the source material it appears that there's been one time so far that a government official in

98
00:09:41,344 --> 00:09:47,824
france actually sold somebody's information only once the rest was basically people that were loud

99
00:09:47,824 --> 00:09:56,824
about their crypto holdings and were easy to find on social media yeah but regardless uh agree but

100
00:09:56,824 --> 00:09:58,484
Be careful.

101
00:09:58,864 --> 00:10:06,024
Look, operational security and personal security has been a problem for wealthy people forever.

102
00:10:06,804 --> 00:10:07,684
It always has been.

103
00:10:07,824 --> 00:10:13,524
Don't expect that it will be any different just because you hold Bitcoin, especially if you're doxed.

104
00:10:13,524 --> 00:10:26,484
So I think that it's incumbent upon people like us to protect our families by either being weapons carriers, as many of us are in the States and having weapons in our home.

105
00:10:26,824 --> 00:10:40,264
But, you know, choose to live in doorman buildings, choose to live in communities with gated security, or just don't ever have your address on the Internet, you know, and put it in a trust of some kind that's not tied to your name.

106
00:10:40,524 --> 00:10:45,744
You know, you actually have to take some measures to not be stupid, just like rich people always have.

107
00:10:47,204 --> 00:10:51,624
Yeah, I don't know if I fit into that category.

108
00:10:51,624 --> 00:10:54,824
I lost all my Bitcoins in a boating accident, as you know.

109
00:10:54,824 --> 00:11:03,264
But, yeah, it's true also that everyone sells FUD.

110
00:11:03,984 --> 00:11:10,104
Like, if you think deep about it, there's not a single product in the world that isn't FUD for something.

111
00:11:10,304 --> 00:11:20,184
Like, if I buy a bottle of water, the water bottle salesman sells FUD to me that I will be thirsty if I don't buy the bottle of water.

112
00:11:20,364 --> 00:11:22,824
Like, everything is on some level FUD.

113
00:11:22,824 --> 00:11:25,624
Well, you're you're getting it's half the story.

114
00:11:25,624 --> 00:11:32,944
There's our our lizard brain, the amygdala, the oldest part of our brain only recognizes two emotions, just fear and greed.

115
00:11:33,484 --> 00:11:36,824
Greed being basically mostly the urge to reproduce.

116
00:11:36,904 --> 00:11:42,864
And obviously, fear is don't die, which then, of course, helps you reproduce if you don't die.

117
00:11:42,984 --> 00:11:51,064
Right. So, you know, I think that most products do actually fall into one or the other where you're selling greed or you're selling fear.

118
00:11:52,824 --> 00:11:53,124
Yeah.

119
00:11:54,364 --> 00:11:58,364
Or you're selling anxiety removal or the removal of fear.

120
00:11:58,364 --> 00:12:07,504
Yeah, or the removal of uneasiness, as the Austrians described it as, like, every human action is based on the removal of uneasiness.

121
00:12:07,864 --> 00:12:11,724
And that is, in a way, fear from a certain perspective.

122
00:12:12,464 --> 00:12:18,884
Another thing I want to double click on is when it comes to privacy and stuff.

123
00:12:18,884 --> 00:12:28,024
I find it quite vulgar that chain analytics and so on claims that they can prove that someone owns a Bitcoin.

124
00:12:28,704 --> 00:12:33,984
But I don't see it that way at all because, I mean, you can't really own a Bitcoin.

125
00:12:34,244 --> 00:12:40,624
All you can do is act as if you did because it is all information all the way down.

126
00:12:40,624 --> 00:12:48,564
All you're doing, all that makes you able to use it rather than someone else is that you're the keeper of a secret.

127
00:12:48,884 --> 00:12:57,144
and anyone else who has access to the same secret can use that Bitcoin as money as much as you can.

128
00:12:57,704 --> 00:12:59,424
So how the hell do you prove a negative?

129
00:12:59,664 --> 00:13:06,204
How do you prove that someone else doesn't own the secret, that you're the sole owner of this secret?

130
00:13:06,764 --> 00:13:09,264
And the truth is you can't.

131
00:13:09,264 --> 00:13:15,284
So the way I see it, all of these chain anal companies, as I like to call them,

132
00:13:15,744 --> 00:13:18,284
they're all play pretend companies.

133
00:13:18,284 --> 00:13:22,884
They're all claiming to know something that they cannot possibly know.

134
00:13:23,264 --> 00:13:24,404
What are your thoughts around that?

135
00:13:26,084 --> 00:13:28,184
There's a few functions going on there.

136
00:13:28,464 --> 00:13:38,944
I mean, one, there's a degree of probabilistic certainty when they're going after like a money launderer or whatever, and they can be like relatively sure they kind of have the guy or the group or whatever.

137
00:13:38,944 --> 00:13:55,724
And I think there have been lots of instances where, you know, analysis of activity on chain, probably more shitcoin chains than Bitcoin has been successful in leading to freezes and reversals and all the kinds of things you can do with decentralized, decentralized and name only type chains.

138
00:13:55,724 --> 00:14:14,984
So that does happen. It's also true that all of these crypto companies and crypto infrastructure, you know, crypto exchanges, etc. needed to prove to government that they were doing something and they needed some way to CYA, you know, cover your ass, as they say here over in the States.

139
00:14:15,784 --> 00:14:23,864
And, you know, chain analysis and other companies like that. What's the other big one? Elliptic, I think. I think that's the name of it.

140
00:14:23,864 --> 00:14:29,704
yeah rings the bell yeah anyway for sure chain analysis and i forget the name of the other ones

141
00:14:29,704 --> 00:14:35,984
but um you know they're essentially selling that cya just like a management consultant sells cya

142
00:14:35,984 --> 00:14:40,864
for a ceo or a board you know they're just saying like yes we checked the box and we did our

143
00:14:40,864 --> 00:14:46,704
diligence now three letter agencies and five eyes you know stay out of my business

144
00:14:46,704 --> 00:14:56,544
hmm yeah so well both sides basically have it's a weird incentive almost like government spending

145
00:14:56,544 --> 00:15:02,084
because both chain analysis and the companies that buy their services have the incentive to

146
00:15:02,084 --> 00:15:07,444
pretend that it's good they're not a natural buyer they're not actually evaluating the service

147
00:15:07,444 --> 00:15:12,244
that chain analysis provides to see if it's any good because they're not the consumer of the

148
00:15:12,244 --> 00:15:18,624
information. In fact, they have the opposite incentive. A crypto exchange offshore or onshore

149
00:15:18,624 --> 00:15:24,484
or whatever would rather that more people trade. And they obviously historically haven't cared who

150
00:15:24,484 --> 00:15:30,624
those people are. And, you know, Binance and Fobi and OKEx and all these companies, you know,

151
00:15:30,664 --> 00:15:35,584
they do a lot more Bitfinex, like they do a lot more volume if they allow money launderers and

152
00:15:35,584 --> 00:15:40,304
criminals to use their exchange for money laundering or wash trading or, you know, whatever

153
00:15:40,304 --> 00:15:46,884
it is that they're trying to do. I mean, the entire Asian crypto complex function primarily

154
00:15:46,884 --> 00:15:53,004
is money laundering to get capital out of China. That's the main reason for it to exist,

155
00:15:53,084 --> 00:15:57,524
which is why there's all this money for, you know, Binance projects and labs and like propping up

156
00:15:57,524 --> 00:16:02,744
that entire ecosystem is just to keep enough liquidity in the casino so that people can bring

157
00:16:02,744 --> 00:16:09,024
cash in and take chips out with it apparently having delivered some kind of economic activity

158
00:16:09,024 --> 00:16:17,724
and it just washes the profits yeah back to your article um can you can you go a bit a bit deeper

159
00:16:17,724 --> 00:16:24,284
into that it's about uh an ancestor of yours here yeah so look i mean obviously i do the parallel

160
00:16:24,284 --> 00:16:30,324
between the work of our generation being monetary independence to the founders of america but the

161
00:16:30,324 --> 00:16:35,744
the conceit the the theme that runs through it is i told the story with the help of

162
00:16:35,744 --> 00:16:44,544
quotes from my grandfather's war journal. So Philip Clipston was in the Navy in World War II.

163
00:16:45,664 --> 00:16:50,744
Being a guy of German descent, he was sent to the Pacific Theater, as was pretty typical for the

164
00:16:50,744 --> 00:16:55,344
time. They weren't sending him to Europe. So actually, both of my grandfathers fought in the

165
00:16:55,344 --> 00:17:02,264
Pacific. And so yeah, he embarked from the USS Yorktown V2. So the first one got sunk in Midway

166
00:17:02,264 --> 00:17:08,904
in 43 and then early 44, a carrier that was already under construction got named the USS Yorktown

167
00:17:08,904 --> 00:17:15,544
to honor the first one. And he was on it from departing out of Bremerton near Seattle and

168
00:17:15,544 --> 00:17:28,208
the whole way through all the way through the end of the war and taking the taking the surrender of the emperor in Japan and you know shooting down kamikazes and the whole thing His role as you can imagine

169
00:17:28,308 --> 00:17:33,208
it's kind of in the blood over here, was communications. So he was a radar man and he

170
00:17:33,208 --> 00:17:37,348
was the guy, you know, spreading the message from the admiral on the deck and making sure everybody

171
00:17:37,348 --> 00:17:42,428
else could get the information. He was a good writer. He was well-spoken. He was also older

172
00:17:42,428 --> 00:17:43,428
than a lot of the other guys.

173
00:17:43,908 --> 00:17:48,588
He was like, he had his 34th birthday on the Yorktown.

174
00:17:48,828 --> 00:17:50,848
And so he just has amazing stories.

175
00:17:51,268 --> 00:17:54,908
And he wrote in the journal every day.

176
00:17:55,468 --> 00:17:58,188
Thank God about 15, 20 years ago,

177
00:17:58,488 --> 00:18:00,868
a cousin of mine for her master's thesis

178
00:18:00,868 --> 00:18:02,908
actually transcribed the whole thing.

179
00:18:03,148 --> 00:18:06,688
So you didn't have to try to read his handwriting,

180
00:18:07,108 --> 00:18:08,328
water stained, et cetera.

181
00:18:08,328 --> 00:18:15,948
and yeah so she got it all into into word form and a pdf and a published little you know book or

182
00:18:15,948 --> 00:18:21,908
whatever and so yeah it was just really interesting to spend some time with him and get the contemporaneous

183
00:18:21,908 --> 00:18:27,908
rundown and she also annotated it all the way through and mapped what was in his journals to

184
00:18:27,908 --> 00:18:32,028
news articles from the time so that you could kind of see it exactly what was actually happening

185
00:18:32,028 --> 00:18:36,968
in the broader war and in the local battles alongside his journal.

186
00:18:37,168 --> 00:18:39,608
So it's a really neat historical artifact.

187
00:18:39,928 --> 00:18:44,228
It's a cool family heirloom and piece of content that we have.

188
00:18:44,228 --> 00:18:50,028
And it was really, you know, it was just kind of a deep experience

189
00:18:50,028 --> 00:18:52,728
mapping it through and seeing the parallels.

190
00:18:53,168 --> 00:18:57,048
And, you know, my favorite story from it,

191
00:18:57,288 --> 00:18:59,388
and that has been since I ever first read it,

192
00:18:59,388 --> 00:19:07,748
It was, he tells a story of a day where some kamikazes and planes were coming in and they shot down 13 planes that day or something like that.

193
00:19:07,748 --> 00:19:12,288
And everybody was like scrambling and like hit the deck.

194
00:19:12,388 --> 00:19:18,748
And, you know, he's up on the deck overlooking everything next to the admiral who's calling the shots.

195
00:19:19,008 --> 00:19:21,388
And everybody's freaking the fuck out except for the admiral.

196
00:19:21,908 --> 00:19:28,748
And the admiral is just like chilling there, just watching, you know, probably at 55 BPM.

197
00:19:29,388 --> 00:19:36,188
you know beats per minute on his heart and seeing seeing the admiral chill made my grandfather you

198
00:19:36,188 --> 00:19:41,308
know stop ducking and he just went up and was like okay i guess that's that's how you do it and he

199
00:19:41,308 --> 00:19:45,868
just went up and stood next to him and talked to him and you know took the orders distributed the

200
00:19:45,868 --> 00:19:54,748
orders and it was you know just the calm under fire of one person was was so uh attractive and

201
00:19:54,748 --> 00:20:00,128
and just something you could obviously get behind and follow. And, uh, you know, that's,

202
00:20:00,268 --> 00:20:05,728
that's a great goal, uh, for leaders everywhere is to be that person that others can kind of look

203
00:20:05,728 --> 00:20:12,268
to and be like, Oh wow, they're calm in the storm. Um, so anyway, I just, I like that analogy for

204
00:20:12,268 --> 00:20:17,268
this moment in time where there's a lot of noise around Bitcoin. There's a lot of FUD, uh, there's

205
00:20:17,268 --> 00:20:23,828
a lot of people profiting, um, you know, whether it's bullshit quantum FUD to raise altcoin funds

206
00:20:23,828 --> 00:20:27,028
last fall on the back of quantum penny stock frauds, et cetera.

207
00:20:27,928 --> 00:20:30,628
You know, there's just so many different things out there.

208
00:20:31,548 --> 00:20:36,968
Again, as there always are in bear markets and just coming out with a big push, a big

209
00:20:36,968 --> 00:20:44,288
coordinated push for positivity, education, adoption, stack the dip, you know, all the

210
00:20:44,288 --> 00:20:45,948
way through by the whole curve.

211
00:20:46,188 --> 00:20:50,928
I just think it's a really nice moment in time because if we enjoy this together and

212
00:20:50,928 --> 00:20:54,828
we've actually done this work together and built some moments and some memories,

213
00:20:54,828 --> 00:20:59,188
it just makes the eventual, you know, bull market that is inevitable.

214
00:20:59,568 --> 00:21:01,348
It'll just make it so much more fun.

215
00:21:01,348 --> 00:21:08,308
Like I just, I think we have an opportunity to give the classes of like, you know,

216
00:21:08,448 --> 00:21:14,628
2020, 21 and class of like 24, 25, the type of experience that a lot of us had,

217
00:21:14,888 --> 00:21:19,128
you know, if you were there for the bull market of 17 or 13, you know,

218
00:21:19,128 --> 00:21:23,548
this could actually be a really, really fun one. It could surprise to the upside because I think

219
00:21:23,548 --> 00:21:29,328
both of the last two were suppressed for different reasons. But, you know, I don't think we've had

220
00:21:29,328 --> 00:21:33,748
the ripping bull run that I expect we'll see at some point, whether it's this cycle or a future

221
00:21:33,748 --> 00:21:38,628
cycle, like there will be one that just gets kind of really fun and out of hand and will be a lot

222
00:21:38,628 --> 00:21:45,008
more enjoyable than, you know, having to share the bull market with crypto stammers in 21. And then,

223
00:21:45,008 --> 00:21:54,068
And, you know, 25 was just kind of like a institutional lettuce hands bowl market that never really got that exciting and retail didn't participate that much.

224
00:21:54,068 --> 00:22:06,708
And there just was kind of like it just didn't involve a lot of real adoption of, you know, self-custody freedom money to the degree that we had seen in years previous.

225
00:22:06,708 --> 00:22:23,548
So, you know, the motivation for all of this for from my part was kind of where you let off the show, which was it just seems like there are a lot of very recent accelerations on freedom encroachment in different jurisdictions.

226
00:22:23,548 --> 00:22:27,788
and it all kind of kicked off in a big, big way,

227
00:22:27,868 --> 00:22:29,468
like five or six weeks ago,

228
00:22:29,768 --> 00:22:31,628
where there was just this one week

229
00:22:31,628 --> 00:22:34,348
where I was actually here in London,

230
00:22:34,928 --> 00:22:37,128
happened to be here for a few days.

231
00:22:37,428 --> 00:22:38,968
And it was that Monday that they passed

232
00:22:38,968 --> 00:22:41,868
the social media ban for under 16s,

233
00:22:41,868 --> 00:22:43,828
which of course means that everybody else

234
00:22:43,828 --> 00:22:45,948
has to tie their ID to their social networks.

235
00:22:47,028 --> 00:22:48,248
A couple of days later,

236
00:22:48,248 --> 00:22:50,588
there was a VPN ban that passed in Utah.

237
00:22:50,588 --> 00:23:06,368
A day after that, I think they turned on age verification for paid plans on Anthropic and ChatGPT, which of course means that, you know, your kids can't use it, which means you have to put in your own ID to be able to use it.

238
00:23:06,368 --> 00:23:10,008
Right. You know, and then it's just every week there was something else.

239
00:23:10,148 --> 00:23:17,888
You know, there was just dramatic acceleration in the pace of the rollout of CBDCs in the EU.

240
00:23:17,888 --> 00:23:29,248
I think the newer drafts of the Clarity Act are just like even more egregious and make it even more plain that the existing crypto stable coins are CBDCs.

241
00:23:29,728 --> 00:23:32,508
Like in every way, shape and form, that's exactly what they are.

242
00:23:33,068 --> 00:23:35,968
You know, they're confiscatable, reversible, etc.

243
00:23:36,248 --> 00:23:38,548
And they're going to be tracked six ways from Sunday.

244
00:23:38,548 --> 00:23:41,668
And it looks like they're going to be subject to the travel rule.

245
00:23:41,788 --> 00:23:45,088
And we'll see if they actually get exceptions here, there or whatever.

246
00:23:45,088 --> 00:23:54,528
But it's very likely that, you know, your information will travel with the payments on these blockchains and you'll always kind of be tied to when you when you used to have it, that kind of thing.

247
00:23:54,528 --> 00:24:05,428
So, you know, a lot of the things that I just thought were going to happen in the 2030s, if we continued on a bad path, really started happening in a huge way in 2026.

248
00:24:05,768 --> 00:24:11,088
Like it's just been a big acceleration of a lot of this privacy erosion and freedom erosion.

249
00:24:11,088 --> 00:24:13,408
and I just think it's really

250
00:24:13,408 --> 00:24:16,168
it's important to get back to basics

251
00:24:16,168 --> 00:24:18,848
it's you know enough with the ETFs

252
00:24:18,848 --> 00:24:20,648
enough with the leverage Bitcoin equities

253
00:24:20,648 --> 00:24:22,268
like enough enough enough

254
00:24:22,268 --> 00:24:24,388
a derivative a derivative

255
00:24:24,388 --> 00:24:26,868
with like eight extra risks

256
00:24:26,868 --> 00:24:28,808
can't be digital money

257
00:24:28,808 --> 00:24:30,668
fucking Bitcoin is digital money

258
00:24:30,668 --> 00:24:32,148
that's the whole point you know

259
00:24:32,148 --> 00:24:34,408
like let's just get back to basics

260
00:24:34,408 --> 00:24:36,948
and make sure the new class of people that come in

261
00:24:36,948 --> 00:24:39,728
and the last class that kind of missed out

262
00:24:39,728 --> 00:24:45,268
on good Bitcoin education actually understands what this is actually about.

263
00:24:46,268 --> 00:24:48,668
You know, I mean, I'm just it's just disappointing.

264
00:24:48,668 --> 00:24:53,248
Like you get you get still it's like stupid old narratives just won't die.

265
00:24:53,488 --> 00:24:55,348
Like blockchain, not Bitcoin is back.

266
00:24:55,928 --> 00:25:00,548
You had Novigratz on a podcast yesterday talking about how money is a shared belief

267
00:25:00,548 --> 00:25:03,928
and that the Bitcoin community is a bunch of people that trust each other.

268
00:25:04,028 --> 00:25:05,248
And that's why he trusts it.

269
00:25:05,308 --> 00:25:06,848
And it's like, do you not understand?

270
00:25:06,848 --> 00:25:11,288
like you really don't understand what this is about after all these years you're just a lucky

271
00:25:11,288 --> 00:25:17,628
idiot you know these trad fi guys just never fucking get it and uh you know to be super clear

272
00:25:17,628 --> 00:25:25,508
bitcoin is a a rational understanding that benefits from a network effect of lots and lots

273
00:25:25,508 --> 00:25:31,288
of individuals actually learning and understanding that it's the best monetary technology that we've

274
00:25:31,288 --> 00:25:37,148
ever had. That's why it works. The whole point is don't fucking trust. Verify Bitcoin is for

275
00:25:37,148 --> 00:25:44,868
enemies. It just blows my mind that these people still get on CNBC and talk dumb shit. That's so

276
00:25:44,868 --> 00:25:50,128
fiat. That's so proof of stake. That's exactly what that's all about is having to trust everybody.

277
00:25:50,328 --> 00:26:08,832
And if we all get together once a year and take limo rides in Koreatown and go to the right whorehouses in the Philippines on Philippines on the crypto circuit then the network will keep running right That one way of putting it for sure

278
00:26:09,472 --> 00:26:14,952
And not to forget the privacy encroachment, the chat control thing in the EU.

279
00:26:15,492 --> 00:26:17,652
They voted for it six times.

280
00:26:17,652 --> 00:26:18,532
Oh my God.

281
00:26:18,892 --> 00:26:20,172
Yeah, that was the one I would risk.

282
00:26:20,572 --> 00:26:21,232
Yeah, sorry.

283
00:26:21,232 --> 00:26:24,672
During the World Cup, they sneakily voted about it again.

284
00:26:24,672 --> 00:26:31,972
But they reversed the vote so that they had to have a majority against not implemented.

285
00:26:32,532 --> 00:26:37,912
And not a majority of the people present.

286
00:26:38,092 --> 00:26:39,252
The majority of everybody.

287
00:26:39,512 --> 00:26:42,612
And they did it the week before summer vacation when most people are gone already.

288
00:26:42,952 --> 00:26:50,872
So even then, of the people present, it was wildly in favor of not having chat control.

289
00:26:50,872 --> 00:26:55,872
but it wasn't a majority of all EU MPs because there weren't enough people in the damn room.

290
00:26:56,432 --> 00:27:04,692
No. So, no, it's like, I personally don't even believe that democratic, it's necessarily a good

291
00:27:04,692 --> 00:27:12,452
thing because, you know, the people are retarded, but, and other things, but if you're going to have

292
00:27:12,452 --> 00:27:18,812
a democratic vote, at least have one instead of just pretending that you're having one. And the

293
00:27:18,812 --> 00:27:20,992
EU is so beyond

294
00:27:20,992 --> 00:27:21,872
anything

295
00:27:21,872 --> 00:27:24,332
else than a cabal at

296
00:27:24,332 --> 00:27:26,732
this point. It's just ridiculous.

297
00:27:27,832 --> 00:27:28,732
By the way,

298
00:27:28,912 --> 00:27:30,852
one more inch on the beard and a

299
00:27:30,852 --> 00:27:32,712
turban and you probably could get away with

300
00:27:32,712 --> 00:27:33,972
Osho for Halloween.

301
00:27:34,792 --> 00:27:35,312
Oh, yeah.

302
00:27:36,572 --> 00:27:38,072
Or a fess, maybe?

303
00:27:38,452 --> 00:27:39,172
Maybe. There you go.

304
00:27:40,052 --> 00:27:40,652
That works.

305
00:27:41,572 --> 00:27:43,072
He's the famous

306
00:27:43,072 --> 00:27:44,992
guru that has the

307
00:27:44,992 --> 00:27:46,232
name of the people.

308
00:27:46,572 --> 00:27:47,672
The people are retired.

309
00:27:48,812 --> 00:27:49,832
Anyway, pretty fun.

310
00:27:49,972 --> 00:27:51,432
Classic, absolute classic.

311
00:27:52,152 --> 00:28:05,592
Yeah, so what other tools, other than Bitcoin, are you excited about for fighting these Panopticon bullshit things that are coming earlier than we thought?

312
00:28:05,592 --> 00:28:14,252
Um, well, I think because it's, so it's probably, it's probably software tools and it's probably

313
00:28:14,252 --> 00:28:21,712
because it's so easy to vibe code simple tools for personal use. I think that ends up being the way

314
00:28:21,712 --> 00:28:28,592
that anybody who's interested in freedom and privacy can basically fight back. So immediately

315
00:28:28,592 --> 00:28:34,972
with the Utah VPN ban, a bunch of people just vibe coded, like really simple, you know,

316
00:28:34,972 --> 00:28:41,032
one megabyte type apps to just create their own vpns and that's because a lot of these vpn

317
00:28:41,032 --> 00:28:47,532
sellers are going to become honeypots too and they're going to be forced to open their databases

318
00:28:47,532 --> 00:28:53,892
so i just think that in particular is one one area of software that i think will become very

319
00:28:53,892 --> 00:28:59,292
decentralized and where people that actually care about this they won't you know unfortunately for

320
00:28:59,292 --> 00:29:05,852
podcasters everywhere. It'll be an industry whose sponsorship budget probably shrinks over time

321
00:29:05,852 --> 00:29:10,332
because I just think they're going to end up under the thumb of the governments. They're not going to

322
00:29:10,332 --> 00:29:16,732
just allow MOLVAD and NordVPN and these different ones to kind of just do whatever they want.

323
00:29:17,092 --> 00:29:21,992
They may already be cutting deals. Anyway, I wish those companies well and they've been awesome. So

324
00:29:21,992 --> 00:29:27,592
I hope they don't submit and that they figure out ways to stay in business and keep going. But

325
00:29:27,592 --> 00:29:33,252
we're not screwed because it's really easy to code something for yourself now and share it with

326
00:29:33,252 --> 00:29:40,172
friends yeah i mean but but banning vpns it's such a it's such a misunderstanding of how the internet

327
00:29:40,172 --> 00:29:45,972
works like it's like banning encryption like to to anyone who knows anything about anything it's

328
00:29:45,972 --> 00:29:52,652
just absurd that these things are even attempted uh again they're just gonna they're gonna stop

329
00:29:52,652 --> 00:29:58,912
most people from using it, not the tech savvy people or the people that really have a use for

330
00:29:58,912 --> 00:30:04,372
it. And so as usual, you know, people that have a real motivation to circumvent something or to

331
00:30:04,372 --> 00:30:09,032
hide something or whatever, they'll figure it out anyway. And you just end up surveilling everyone.

332
00:30:10,112 --> 00:30:15,732
And that usually ends up being in service of taxation and eventually, you know, social credit

333
00:30:15,732 --> 00:30:19,112
scores and deciding what you're allowed to spend your money on, et cetera, et cetera.

334
00:30:19,112 --> 00:30:28,552
yeah it's a perpetual machine and but but also like it feels like we're the we're the athletes

335
00:30:28,552 --> 00:30:34,332
who are taking the drugs that they haven't banned yet you know the steroids and stuff that they

336
00:30:34,332 --> 00:30:41,572
haven't figured out yet it's like the race between uh between whoever is trying to stop someone and

337
00:30:41,572 --> 00:30:46,352
maybe that analogy is a bit bad because you probably shouldn't be on steroids but but you

338
00:30:46,352 --> 00:30:53,452
know what i mean right yeah well in the unlikely event that anyone in your audience doesn't uh

339
00:30:53,452 --> 00:31:02,232
read a lot of kind of poli sci and political history uh or just dystopian sci-fi uh one of

340
00:31:02,232 --> 00:31:10,352
the classic ways to exert authoritarian you know sort of reach over a society or a population is

341
00:31:10,352 --> 00:31:18,092
just to make sure that everyone is breaking a law so that you all so everyone always knows that the

342
00:31:18,092 --> 00:31:25,532
state can come for them at some time and so the goal of a truly authoritarian society or leadership

343
00:31:25,532 --> 00:31:32,252
i guess is to create enough regulations where normal things that people have to do to survive

344
00:31:32,252 --> 00:31:37,792
or to feed their family or to conduct commerce puts you in violation of something always

345
00:31:37,792 --> 00:31:44,972
yeah and that's exactly what happened to like i had a friend who passed away a couple of years ago

346
00:31:44,972 --> 00:31:51,472
who used to work for like the empire he used to work for the financial crime division of the police

347
00:31:51,472 --> 00:32:00,352
in sweden and uh i asked him at one point what what percentage of the population that are committing

348
00:32:00,352 --> 00:32:05,852
any type of economic crime like if you just look at how many people are breaking rules without

349
00:32:05,852 --> 00:32:09,452
knowing that they're breaking them. And he thought for a while and he said, everyone.

350
00:32:10,792 --> 00:32:15,792
There's not a single person that is not committing a crime. So he's already here,

351
00:32:15,872 --> 00:32:21,232
at least in Scandinavia. But I suspect that every single country in the EU is the same.

352
00:32:22,992 --> 00:32:29,352
Well, I mean, that's really what accounting firms are for when you deal with the IRS tax code in the

353
00:32:29,352 --> 00:32:34,212
US. It's that somebody signs off on it and accepts some liability. What you're really

354
00:32:34,212 --> 00:32:36,592
doing is saying like, hey, if there's something

355
00:32:36,592 --> 00:32:38,492
messed up, I didn't do it. The accountant

356
00:32:38,492 --> 00:32:39,912
did. That's what I pay for.

357
00:32:40,792 --> 00:32:42,632
You know, because they mess up

358
00:32:42,632 --> 00:32:44,272
something on my taxes every year.

359
00:32:45,112 --> 00:32:46,152
You know, like the best

360
00:32:46,152 --> 00:32:48,392
accounting firms, they're always going to mess something.

361
00:32:48,512 --> 00:32:50,492
Maybe not every year, but they screw

362
00:32:50,492 --> 00:32:52,612
up, but it's not my fault

363
00:32:52,612 --> 00:32:54,032
and they signed off on it.

364
00:32:55,532 --> 00:32:56,812
Otherwise, it's on me.

365
00:32:57,592 --> 00:32:57,752
Right?

366
00:32:58,252 --> 00:33:00,412
Sorry? I pay them to accept

367
00:33:00,412 --> 00:33:02,372
liability when the IRS comes calling

368
00:33:02,372 --> 00:33:03,652
for something. Yeah.

369
00:33:04,212 --> 00:33:07,332
My friend Dave Bradley calls that lubrication companies.

370
00:33:07,752 --> 00:33:08,692
And I love that term.

371
00:33:08,832 --> 00:33:11,392
I love this so much I put it in the inverse of clown world.

372
00:33:11,532 --> 00:33:15,812
There's a section there about like real companies or the government.

373
00:33:16,132 --> 00:33:20,752
And the in-betweens are private companies that act as lubrication companies.

374
00:33:20,752 --> 00:33:26,532
Because what they're really selling is lubrication for when the giant government dildo

375
00:33:26,532 --> 00:33:29,352
inevitably comes to rape you at one point.

376
00:33:29,372 --> 00:33:30,712
So it goes down a little easier.

377
00:33:31,052 --> 00:33:31,452
That's dark.

378
00:33:32,052 --> 00:33:32,612
That's dark.

379
00:33:32,612 --> 00:33:37,412
We could say like a tougher pill to swallow, but you can have it your way if you want as well.

380
00:33:38,032 --> 00:33:41,652
But yeah, I mean, that is a wide swath of just what we call professional services.

381
00:33:42,072 --> 00:33:42,432
Exactly.

382
00:33:42,852 --> 00:33:48,852
It's consulting, banking, legal, accounting, that is professional services, largely is about accepting liability.

383
00:33:49,512 --> 00:33:50,512
You need somebody to blame.

384
00:33:50,772 --> 00:33:51,632
You need somebody to blame.

385
00:33:51,632 --> 00:33:53,632
Like, you know, IBM fucks up.

386
00:33:53,872 --> 00:33:55,692
They need to be able to blame the McKinsey guys.

387
00:33:56,952 --> 00:33:57,032
Yeah.

388
00:33:57,032 --> 00:34:04,552
And these people don't provide humanity with anything of actual value.

389
00:34:04,852 --> 00:34:12,792
It's just this blame game thing so that the money ends up somewhere rather than somewhere else.

390
00:34:12,792 --> 00:34:20,092
I think you know me well enough by now that I will say it's nuanced in that there are things in the pro column and in the con column.

391
00:34:20,092 --> 00:34:31,192
You know, there is there is expertise in those fields of accounting, banking, law and consulting that you don't have at these companies.

392
00:34:31,192 --> 00:34:36,892
And so there there certainly is upside, but it is sparse.

393
00:34:36,892 --> 00:34:43,012
It's kind of few and far between. And it may be something like, you know, 20 percent real value.

394
00:34:43,056 --> 00:34:45,076
bad and like 80% cover your ass.

395
00:34:45,996 --> 00:34:50,176
Yeah, I'm not saying they're not valuable in the world we're living in.

396
00:34:50,616 --> 00:34:55,796
But if in a world without aggression, they wouldn't exist, like because you wouldn't

397
00:34:55,796 --> 00:34:56,236
need them.

398
00:34:56,636 --> 00:34:58,016
There would be no taxes to pay.

399
00:34:58,016 --> 00:35:03,876
There would be no accounting needed, except for what you wanted to do yourself.

400
00:35:04,416 --> 00:35:09,476
No, you would, because you would still have capital markets and you would have laws and

401
00:35:09,476 --> 00:35:12,636
torts and all those kinds of things, right?

402
00:35:13,056 --> 00:35:26,596
Yeah, but in a different way. I think this sub-cavern of the rabbit hole is for another discussion, I think. There's like the libertarian in me waking up here.

403
00:35:26,596 --> 00:35:34,436
Nothing wrong with that, man. Look, what we call libertarians today are just like some combination of traditional conservatives and classical liberals.

404
00:35:34,436 --> 00:35:38,356
I'd call those LARP-baterians, but anyway.

405
00:35:42,356 --> 00:35:44,536
Yeah, where are we in the conversation here?

406
00:35:45,996 --> 00:35:48,136
What other areas do we want to go?

407
00:35:48,156 --> 00:35:52,956
Yeah, you mentioned the founding fathers and the parallels to Bitcoin.

408
00:35:53,076 --> 00:35:54,836
This is also from your article there.

409
00:35:55,396 --> 00:35:59,116
One thing that fascinates me about them is how damn young they were.

410
00:35:59,116 --> 00:36:04,576
Like the average age of the founding fathers is like 23 or something.

411
00:36:04,696 --> 00:36:06,096
It's like ridiculously low.

412
00:36:06,656 --> 00:36:10,796
They range from like 19 to 27 or something like that.

413
00:36:12,136 --> 00:36:15,816
So, and maybe there's some type of similarity there,

414
00:36:15,916 --> 00:36:18,816
given that like the early Bitcoiners were in there.

415
00:36:19,236 --> 00:36:25,596
Well, not as young maybe, but we're all a decade older now, I guess.

416
00:36:25,596 --> 00:36:32,776
but most people were in their late 20s or early 30s when they started this whole thing.

417
00:36:33,116 --> 00:36:39,896
So are there any other parallels there between the founding fathers and the founders of Bitcoin?

418
00:36:40,916 --> 00:36:49,516
I probably more look at it as like, you know, proximity or distance to the center of the empire.

419
00:36:49,516 --> 00:36:54,536
and I think a lot of people that were attracted to Bitcoin early

420
00:36:54,536 --> 00:36:58,036
were kind of on the edges of empire and spotting its cracks

421
00:36:58,036 --> 00:37:00,536
and it wasn't working for them in various ways

422
00:37:00,536 --> 00:37:03,916
and so they were kind of on the lookout for something interesting

423
00:37:03,916 --> 00:37:07,756
and new and different, especially the ones that got interested

424
00:37:07,756 --> 00:37:14,156
in Bitcoin for economic reasons, like reasons of economic history

425
00:37:14,156 --> 00:37:16,016
and economic theory and kind of saw it as something

426
00:37:16,016 --> 00:37:20,396
that could be that future global reserve currency and global money, etc.

427
00:37:21,156 --> 00:37:25,516
So in that respect, I kind of look at the founders as being on the edges of the British

428
00:37:25,516 --> 00:37:29,256
Empire and the British Empire wasn't really working for them anymore.

429
00:37:30,036 --> 00:37:36,436
You know, like the reason that George Washington got involved in the war is because he was

430
00:37:36,436 --> 00:37:45,816
a massive land speculator over the edges of the empire into Indian territory and was flipping

431
00:37:45,816 --> 00:37:51,956
land plots over there. And then the British said, oh, nevermind. We're not going to support that.

432
00:37:52,016 --> 00:37:58,096
We're not going to defend that. You're on your own. So he basically was going to lose everything

433
00:37:58,096 --> 00:38:04,076
anyway. So his back was kind of against the wall. And I kind of see that with a lot of people who

434
00:38:04,076 --> 00:38:11,856
lost everything anyway, speculating on houses in Phoenix or hotel developments in Mexico or whatever

435
00:38:11,856 --> 00:38:15,216
during the GFC and kind of the property bubble.

436
00:38:15,496 --> 00:38:17,276
And, you know, a lot of people were just like,

437
00:38:17,756 --> 00:38:20,256
this shit was all on shaky foundations.

438
00:38:20,256 --> 00:38:22,016
It wasn't just the dot-com bubble.

439
00:38:22,136 --> 00:38:22,956
That was bullshit.

440
00:38:23,256 --> 00:38:24,736
It was actually an everything bubble

441
00:38:24,736 --> 00:38:25,676
and it was all bullshit.

442
00:38:25,976 --> 00:38:27,836
And we're on a foundation of sand

443
00:38:27,836 --> 00:38:30,236
and this empire doesn't serve me anymore.

444
00:38:30,236 --> 00:38:32,596
So let me, sitting on the edges of empire,

445
00:38:33,216 --> 00:38:34,676
start to have a look at something new.

446
00:38:37,876 --> 00:38:40,796
That's actually, right, the edges of empire.

447
00:38:41,856 --> 00:38:44,336
It's a good article title.

448
00:38:44,596 --> 00:38:45,576
I never thought of this before.

449
00:38:45,956 --> 00:38:47,176
Edges of Empire, yeah.

450
00:38:48,516 --> 00:38:50,396
Copyright, Cory and Newt.

451
00:38:52,976 --> 00:38:55,216
Original art, first mention, anyway.

452
00:38:56,596 --> 00:39:01,716
I think it was Saylor had this story structure in his head,

453
00:39:01,716 --> 00:39:06,836
like this way to look at history that people moved further and further west

454
00:39:06,836 --> 00:39:10,336
to move away from taxes, basically,

455
00:39:10,636 --> 00:39:12,696
and to move into more and more freedom.

456
00:39:13,496 --> 00:39:15,256
And that ends in California.

457
00:39:15,616 --> 00:39:19,196
And California is not a bastion of freedom nowadays.

458
00:39:19,856 --> 00:39:21,236
So there's nowhere else to,

459
00:39:21,416 --> 00:39:22,876
there's no more West to go to.

460
00:39:22,976 --> 00:39:24,136
So you have to go to the internet

461
00:39:24,136 --> 00:39:25,416
and you have to go to Bitcoin.

462
00:39:25,676 --> 00:39:27,956
Like that's where you find freedom.

463
00:39:28,236 --> 00:39:29,676
I kind of like that picture.

464
00:39:30,696 --> 00:39:32,596
Yeah, it is a real shame.

465
00:39:32,596 --> 00:39:34,256
It was always go West, young man,

466
00:39:34,356 --> 00:39:35,436
go West, make your fortune.

467
00:39:35,436 --> 00:39:54,496
You know, you fuck up in Philly, you can go to St. Louis, you fuck up in St. Louis, you go to Denver, you know, and end up in San Francisco or something. And, you know, unfortunately, California just got so, so fat and used to having so much excess. It just atrophied in all the things that made it special.

468
00:39:54,496 --> 00:40:03,176
you know it still remains so far worth the sunshine tax as you know it's my home and

469
00:40:03,176 --> 00:40:08,476
you know there's it is special to be in southern california it's the only warm dry coastline in

470
00:40:08,476 --> 00:40:12,956
the most powerful nation in the history of the planet so you know there's a reason 50 million

471
00:40:12,956 --> 00:40:18,296
fucking people live there uh and it probably has capacity for double that so i don't i don't think

472
00:40:18,296 --> 00:40:26,076
it's going anywhere, but it also is like headed off a cliff for the first real state economic

473
00:40:26,076 --> 00:40:33,036
crisis. We've never had a state properly go bankrupt before, but you know, these, these civil

474
00:40:33,036 --> 00:40:41,156
servants do no fault of their own. It's just like people band together and try to get extra pay for

475
00:40:41,156 --> 00:40:47,256
them and their kind. And they've done it extremely well for so many decades that you have, you know,

476
00:40:47,256 --> 00:40:52,196
lots of cops get a pension after 20 years in one place and a pension after 20 years in another

477
00:40:52,196 --> 00:40:57,076
city. And they double up on the pensions after working from like 20 to 60. And they're pulling

478
00:40:57,076 --> 00:41:02,256
in like a million bucks a year from taxpayers. You know, you got like a lot of firemen making

479
00:41:02,256 --> 00:41:06,556
three, 400 grand a year, you know, stuff like that. Like, it's really difficult to make that

480
00:41:06,556 --> 00:41:12,196
kind of money in the private sector. And you can't fire people. Teachers are basically unfireable

481
00:41:12,196 --> 00:41:16,496
after one or two years. And there's nobody of quality watching them and evaluating them in

482
00:41:16,496 --> 00:41:20,776
those first couple of years. And so you just kind of, you just have the Senate care forever,

483
00:41:20,776 --> 00:41:25,156
as long as you can get in and just get a government job of almost any kind.

484
00:41:26,036 --> 00:41:32,676
And, you know, obviously the pension, CalSTRS, CalPERS, like they just can't keep up with

485
00:41:32,676 --> 00:41:37,716
inflation and just the ballooning, you know, cohort of pensioners that's just draining the

486
00:41:37,716 --> 00:41:43,456
state. Not to mention all the hilarious projects and, you know, 50 billion spent on high-speed rail

487
00:41:43,456 --> 00:41:46,336
that has yet to lay a mile of track and this, that, and the other.

488
00:41:46,456 --> 00:41:47,516
It's just constant, right?

489
00:41:48,176 --> 00:41:55,156
And meanwhile, we have a senator who's the best trader in the history of the country in Nancy Pelosi.

490
00:41:57,376 --> 00:42:04,296
Trump is catching up with her quickly, but she definitely has the best track record of any trader in the country over the last couple of decades.

491
00:42:04,296 --> 00:42:12,776
And I don't know if anybody could possibly be more loathsome on camera and just talking than Newsom.

492
00:42:12,776 --> 00:42:18,616
and like how is this guy a governor i don't i don't get it i don't know why people would vote

493
00:42:18,616 --> 00:42:25,436
for somebody like that he's obviously a bad guy anyway no but there's there's nothing projects

494
00:42:25,436 --> 00:42:32,076
are everywhere i mean all the windmills in germany and here in sweden they tried to build a a first

495
00:42:32,076 --> 00:42:47,364
of all a battery factory that was heavily government subsidized they never constructed a single battery before they went bankrupt There was another project trying to make green steel which is a steel plant running on batteries

496
00:42:47,564 --> 00:42:53,624
They would require as much electricity as Finland, all in the name of saving the planet.

497
00:42:54,004 --> 00:42:56,764
And that project is going to shit too, of course.

498
00:42:57,424 --> 00:43:02,684
So in your view, is there a fourth turning thing going on here?

499
00:43:02,684 --> 00:43:05,044
Is this inevitable in democracies?

500
00:43:05,044 --> 00:43:07,484
Is this inevitable given that we have inflation?

501
00:43:07,764 --> 00:43:11,844
Is that why so many resources are misallocated politically?

502
00:43:12,964 --> 00:43:14,544
What are your thoughts around that?

503
00:43:16,924 --> 00:43:23,824
Look, there are so many things tied into that question, and it's a 100-hour topic.

504
00:43:24,944 --> 00:43:29,984
Let me break apart a few pieces that I read and think and talk about a lot.

505
00:43:29,984 --> 00:43:37,804
So one is I am not a subscriber to the dollar is going to hyperinflate away quickly at some point.

506
00:43:37,924 --> 00:43:39,804
And that will go like Waymar Republic style.

507
00:43:40,364 --> 00:43:41,824
I don't see that happening.

508
00:43:42,164 --> 00:43:57,804
I see the dollar's monetary network effect actually strengthening right now because the USA, for better or worse, just an amoral observation, is flexing its muscles more basically militarily and politically.

509
00:43:57,804 --> 00:44:02,164
and kind of jamming it down the throats of the rest of the world.

510
00:44:02,484 --> 00:44:07,564
And they're doing it to survive because if you have lots of dollars,

511
00:44:07,564 --> 00:44:09,544
then you have to buy lots of treasuries.

512
00:44:09,664 --> 00:44:12,084
And we need people to buy lots of treasuries because otherwise

513
00:44:12,084 --> 00:44:15,584
the whole Western system will collapse under debt payments.

514
00:44:15,984 --> 00:44:18,644
So you have to be able to roll over the treasury debt,

515
00:44:18,744 --> 00:44:20,004
which just keeps on expanding.

516
00:44:20,004 --> 00:44:26,704
We're 39.5 trillion, two orders of magnitude larger than what I just said.

517
00:44:26,704 --> 00:44:34,404
for the first time in a long time since World War II, we've eclipsed the comparison of national

518
00:44:34,404 --> 00:44:40,884
debt versus GDP. And this should be a time of relative peace and prosperity, given all the

519
00:44:40,884 --> 00:44:45,944
technological advancements, and that we don't necessarily have to be at war in the places that

520
00:44:45,944 --> 00:44:52,204
we've chosen to be at war. So it's disappointing and it's scary. But again, I do see the rest of

521
00:44:52,204 --> 00:44:58,964
this century being more of an American century than the 20th century. I think that was a misnomer

522
00:44:58,964 --> 00:45:03,664
to call that the American century. It was kind of just the beginning of what should be, you know,

523
00:45:03,724 --> 00:45:10,064
in total, something like a 150 to 200 year run, mostly because it's just the cleanest shirt and

524
00:45:10,064 --> 00:45:15,184
the dirty laundry and there's nobody there to come in and step in and take its place.

525
00:45:15,184 --> 00:45:22,284
uh it's you know the only the only other player on the board is china and they're just facing

526
00:45:22,284 --> 00:45:29,864
demographic collapse and you know lots of problems that that will come so i just uh i just don't see

527
00:45:29,864 --> 00:45:37,284
it i don't think people trust a centrally managed currency like like the yuan that's kind of just

528
00:45:37,284 --> 00:45:43,764
owned and controlled by a uniparty and you know again they they don't let things out and they

529
00:45:43,764 --> 00:45:50,264
don't let the markets open. And if they do, the CCP loses control and then China shrinks back to

530
00:45:50,264 --> 00:45:55,404
something more like its normal borders. It's at the largest extent that it's ever been historically

531
00:45:55,404 --> 00:45:59,344
with all the territory that it currently has. And it's really hard to keep all these disparate

532
00:45:59,344 --> 00:46:03,824
groups together, kind of have to have like boots on necks to make it happen. And that's why they

533
00:46:03,824 --> 00:46:07,784
have social credit and capital controls and all these different things. And that's why they

534
00:46:07,784 --> 00:46:15,184
except at uniparty it's just for peace um so yeah i just think that we'll have kind of in these

535
00:46:15,184 --> 00:46:21,484
monetary networks i'm not talking about purchasing power but these monetary networks of uh the dollar

536
00:46:21,484 --> 00:46:26,604
gold is still on the table because so many people still like it and believe in it because of its

537
00:46:26,604 --> 00:46:32,384
5 000 year history as a store of value and and then bitcoin and bitcoin is much much smaller

538
00:46:32,384 --> 00:46:40,304
in its network effect. And it's much, much smaller in its market cap, obviously. So I think of the

539
00:46:40,304 --> 00:46:45,424
three, it's the fastest horse in the race, but we don't know how long that's going to take.

540
00:46:46,084 --> 00:46:51,904
And I've talked often about believing that Bitcoin is a technological revolution in the

541
00:46:51,904 --> 00:46:56,804
framework of Carlotta Perez, who argues with me on Twitter because she doesn't like Bitcoin because

542
00:46:56,804 --> 00:46:59,144
She lives in Silicon Valley and they don't understand it there.

543
00:46:59,944 --> 00:47:00,624
But it is.

544
00:47:01,004 --> 00:47:03,224
And it's the sixth technological revolution.

545
00:47:03,224 --> 00:47:05,424
And these things take like 50 to 80 years.

546
00:47:05,424 --> 00:47:12,724
And I think because it faces such a strong incumbent in the dollar plus another incumbent

547
00:47:12,724 --> 00:47:18,144
that actually sees the same problems and has a lot of adoption in gold, I see it taking

548
00:47:18,144 --> 00:47:19,384
toward the higher end.

549
00:47:19,624 --> 00:47:20,724
So 70 to 80 years.

550
00:47:20,724 --> 00:47:29,124
So, you know, from 2009, you know, we're looking at 2080 to 2090 before you have full install of Bitcoin across all three functions of money.

551
00:47:29,324 --> 00:47:31,804
And that's kind of my framework and how I see it.

552
00:47:32,264 --> 00:47:36,004
You know, it's three S curves with like a 20 plus year lag between them.

553
00:47:36,244 --> 00:47:40,724
We're barely at the inflection point coming off the flat part of store of value.

554
00:47:41,004 --> 00:47:42,524
We have to charge up the S curve.

555
00:47:42,524 --> 00:47:45,444
The top of that S curve will be like one to two million dollars a coin.

556
00:47:45,444 --> 00:47:51,404
and then it'll kind of have kind of steady just above GDP growth or something you know on average

557
00:47:51,404 --> 00:47:55,324
after that there will still be speculative manias and crashes and stuff but they'll be muted compared

558
00:47:55,324 --> 00:48:03,384
to what we've seen and you know sometime in 2035 to 2050 you'll see the medium of exchange

559
00:48:03,384 --> 00:48:08,484
s curve really start to take off and start up the steep part and then sometime another 15

560
00:48:08,484 --> 00:48:12,444
20 years after that you'll see us kind of charging up the s curve for unit of account

561
00:48:12,444 --> 00:48:21,424
hmm that's just a similar view to what i have but i i i'd phrase it a bit differently like i think

562
00:48:21,424 --> 00:48:29,364
uh the dichotomy between store of value medium exchange is uh is false to begin with uh and it's

563
00:48:29,364 --> 00:48:35,844
also a product of uh you know gold being money and then fiat being money because gold was a good

564
00:48:35,844 --> 00:48:41,064
store value but a crappy medium of exchange and fiat is the other way around it's a good medium

565
00:48:41,064 --> 00:48:46,444
of exchange but a crappy store of value for obvious reasons but uh in reality i think that

566
00:48:46,444 --> 00:48:52,104
the two were never separated uh i view it as medium of exchange over space and time so a

567
00:48:52,104 --> 00:48:56,664
four-dimensional medium of exchange so because store of value is really just trading with your

568
00:48:56,664 --> 00:49:04,244
future self uh so the the point of that framing is that you can't have one without the other

569
00:49:04,244 --> 00:49:11,404
in the long run you need both uh and uh that's why that's why one of the reasons why bitcoin

570
00:49:11,404 --> 00:49:17,484
is so big i i do you think you're there's there's a reason that i phrase it clearly we agree and it

571
00:49:17,484 --> 00:49:23,944
and it currently technologically serves all three functions of money it's actually it's actually my

572
00:49:23,944 --> 00:49:31,044
unit of account for for at least wealth you know i even you know like lots of us like even if i

573
00:49:31,044 --> 00:49:35,404
own other assets, I still have a spreadsheet denominating it all in Bitcoin. And that's what

574
00:49:35,404 --> 00:49:43,324
I really care about and what I track. You know, I use the word widely used very deliberately,

575
00:49:43,324 --> 00:49:48,584
because it's not widely used as a medium of exchange. And it's not widely used as a unit

576
00:49:48,584 --> 00:49:53,804
of account, even though it can serve those functions, and already does in some cases,

577
00:49:54,204 --> 00:49:58,744
it's not widely used. It's not a widely used store of value yet either, even though it already

578
00:49:58,744 --> 00:50:06,104
functions as a store of value for some of us. Yeah, I absolutely agree. When I think about

579
00:50:06,104 --> 00:50:13,584
adoption, I think the closest analogy I can come up with is language in Europe. Because after the

580
00:50:13,584 --> 00:50:17,824
fall of the Berlin Wall, just a couple of years after, I was traveling around a bit in Europe,

581
00:50:17,824 --> 00:50:24,964
and no one spoke English except in the UK. So if you went to East Germany, for instance,

582
00:50:24,964 --> 00:50:27,964
not a word of English from anyone.

583
00:50:27,964 --> 00:50:31,404
And West Germany wasn't that much better.

584
00:50:31,404 --> 00:50:33,484
I mean, I guess they were unified at that point.

585
00:50:33,484 --> 00:50:46,892
But France horrible Southern Europe of course horrible And it took like a generation for that to shift and like the the kids growing up now they they are fluent in english at least in northern

586
00:50:46,892 --> 00:50:53,092
europe there's some lag in in like spain and italy and uh and uh some of the eastern european

587
00:50:53,092 --> 00:51:01,492
countries but but it's it's picking up fast and i see bitcoin sort of uh uh bitcoin adoption

588
00:51:01,492 --> 00:51:02,992
following a similar curve.

589
00:51:03,412 --> 00:51:06,712
It's probably a generation will have to pass.

590
00:51:06,932 --> 00:51:11,792
Like the old farts like us, or specifically like me,

591
00:51:12,412 --> 00:51:15,272
there's a handful of us that has picked up on this

592
00:51:15,272 --> 00:51:20,052
and know how to speak the language, so to speak.

593
00:51:22,132 --> 00:51:25,572
But I think a lot of us will have to die off too

594
00:51:25,572 --> 00:51:28,392
before we see a real adoption.

595
00:51:29,012 --> 00:51:30,992
The kids growing up with it though,

596
00:51:30,992 --> 00:51:43,292
And the kids growing up with apps that have a sat infrastructure in place will just think that banking is horribly backwards and cumbersome.

597
00:51:43,912 --> 00:51:46,612
So I think there's something to that.

598
00:51:46,752 --> 00:51:50,752
And given that these 70, 80 years is a pretty good guess.

599
00:51:50,812 --> 00:51:53,892
It takes a while for things like this to actually catch on.

600
00:51:54,072 --> 00:51:59,312
And I view it more as a social innovation than a technological one in this sense.

601
00:52:00,992 --> 00:52:11,912
Yeah, look, usage forms, habits, and just being aware that it exists and exposing people to doing a Bitcoin transaction is really cool.

602
00:52:11,912 --> 00:52:21,032
I take little victory laps every time I see it happen somewhere, just an indication that somebody's understood it a little better than they used to.

603
00:52:21,892 --> 00:52:25,992
Like my wife recently trying to send wires internationally.

604
00:52:26,512 --> 00:52:29,212
And at some point she was like, can we send Bitcoin?

605
00:52:30,992 --> 00:52:32,952
And I was like, yes, nice.

606
00:52:33,272 --> 00:52:33,952
You understand.

607
00:52:34,272 --> 00:52:41,712
Like, that would be very fast and we'd be done and move on with our lives and not have to chase these fuckers at these dumb banks with their banker hours.

608
00:52:42,452 --> 00:52:45,952
No, and they just seem to get more and more horrible the more time that passes.

609
00:52:45,952 --> 00:52:49,312
Like, Spanish banks are, it's a complete nightmare.

610
00:52:49,852 --> 00:52:55,832
There's these desks with piles of paper everywhere and lines out on the street and stuff.

611
00:52:56,112 --> 00:52:57,252
Like, it's so backward.

612
00:52:57,252 --> 00:53:06,252
and it could be so and once you see it it's of course impossible to unsee uh so um yeah i just uh

613
00:53:06,252 --> 00:53:12,372
oh my god engaging with these banks it's just brutal i only use small banks now like with

614
00:53:12,372 --> 00:53:19,432
with no teller window like i just i i need people that are responsive when you email them

615
00:53:19,432 --> 00:53:25,172
where you actually email humans yeah i just community banks are the way to go i'm just not

616
00:53:25,172 --> 00:53:26,692
into the big behemoth banks.

617
00:53:26,832 --> 00:53:28,572
I don't want to ask for permission.

618
00:53:29,292 --> 00:53:31,652
I want to be able to go and like talk to somebody

619
00:53:31,652 --> 00:53:32,852
that lives in my community.

620
00:53:33,952 --> 00:53:37,112
No, I'm required to have Spanish bank accounts

621
00:53:37,112 --> 00:53:38,272
to a certain extent,

622
00:53:38,472 --> 00:53:40,412
but I use them as little as possible.

623
00:53:40,592 --> 00:53:41,872
I want as little money in the,

624
00:53:42,272 --> 00:53:46,492
only keep in fiat what you're willing to lose.

625
00:53:46,972 --> 00:53:49,512
Yes, I agree, which is,

626
00:53:49,652 --> 00:53:52,752
I always say I don't sleep well in fiat.

627
00:53:52,752 --> 00:54:08,272
No, I also agree with this, that the US can be the quote unquote greatest country on earth if having the most money is being the greatest for another century.

628
00:54:08,872 --> 00:54:14,432
I mean, just the last decade, the GDP of the US has doubled in comparison to Europe.

629
00:54:14,432 --> 00:54:21,112
The head start is already so big and I don't see the dollar going away anytime soon.

630
00:54:21,112 --> 00:54:28,512
unfortunately all the other fiat currencies died before the dollar uh and i do not believe that the

631
00:54:28,512 --> 00:54:33,872
uh but in the in the real long run like a couple of generations from now there is no way that the

632
00:54:33,872 --> 00:54:41,172
dollar and bitcoin can coexist like uh it's it's just a matter of time but it's probably not within

633
00:54:41,172 --> 00:54:49,472
our lifetimes that's that's how i see it yeah it's it's probably tough to see well i don't know

634
00:54:49,472 --> 00:54:53,552
I mean, it depends on what your measure is.

635
00:54:53,812 --> 00:55:02,612
You know, when gold was above 5K for a little bit, there was more gold in central bank reserves than treasuries around the world.

636
00:55:03,132 --> 00:55:12,112
It's back under a little bit now, but, you know, it could easily go back and be above treasury balances, you know, in a couple of years.

637
00:55:12,412 --> 00:55:13,352
It might not take that long.

638
00:55:13,692 --> 00:55:16,492
And so in that respect, you know, it'll be a moving target.

639
00:55:16,492 --> 00:55:23,832
will probably be at, you know, 60 trillion by then or something like that, but of treasury debt,

640
00:55:23,952 --> 00:55:30,572
but that's $3 million a coin. You know, that's very achievable by, you know, end of the next

641
00:55:30,572 --> 00:55:39,532
decade or something like that. So, yeah, I don't know. It may not be all that far off.

642
00:55:39,952 --> 00:55:45,512
It'll still be around for a lot longer, though. It's just too easy to print money and give it to

643
00:55:45,512 --> 00:55:54,652
your friends yeah i heard somewhere that the uh that fake dollars uh for some time was columbia's

644
00:55:54,652 --> 00:56:01,792
third biggest uh export uh good like after cocaine and coffee and they just get like a really good

645
00:56:01,792 --> 00:56:10,152
counterfeit bill yeah that's pretty interesting i know the uh the north koreans had a spectacular

646
00:56:10,152 --> 00:56:15,692
particular super bill like a really good fake hundred that uh evidently had been getting spent

647
00:56:15,692 --> 00:56:20,472
all over asia and it was like a good source of revenue for them i just read that story last week

648
00:56:20,472 --> 00:56:26,992
yeah and there was some uh but that was a euros i think i believe

649
00:56:26,992 --> 00:56:37,732
fake euros uh uh which like plot twist all euros are fake but but of course uh counterfeiting is

650
00:56:37,732 --> 00:56:46,372
only for the privileged yeah well good man well so look i i appreciate you having me on uh i

651
00:56:46,372 --> 00:56:54,652
definitely want to you know really i'm spending a lot of my my own time uh you know now and beyond

652
00:56:54,652 --> 00:57:01,712
really getting back on that mission of bitcoin adoption and spreading educational resources and

653
00:57:01,712 --> 00:57:07,652
trying to get people up to speed about actually owning real on-chain bitcoin and seeing that as

654
00:57:07,652 --> 00:57:15,832
the bulwark against this encroachment of tyrannical impulses and impingements on freedoms.

655
00:57:15,832 --> 00:57:21,452
I mean, it really does feel like we are ahead of schedule on that.

656
00:57:21,672 --> 00:57:26,172
And we need to start running a little faster in that race to avoid the war framework.

657
00:57:27,232 --> 00:57:32,132
You know, we need to win the race to avoid that war where Bitcoin and Bitcoiners kind

658
00:57:32,132 --> 00:57:35,952
of have to go dark and fight it out, you know, in the black market, basically.

659
00:57:35,952 --> 00:57:53,572
And it's probably like hard to be a Bitcoiner for 20 years or 30 years or something like that. It would be a lot easier if we just did this via peaceful revolution, you know, and it just kind of kept on taking root and that we could see it rise enough that we kind of flip society.

660
00:57:53,572 --> 00:58:08,672
Right. And in the U.S., which is where I think society actually needs to be flipped precisely because the U.S. and in specific, the State Department is really the only entity that could actually coordinate a really dark period for Bitcoiners globally.

661
00:58:09,012 --> 00:58:19,892
Otherwise, if it's fine in the U.S., everybody can escape to the U.S. and different U.S.-linked territories and be OK, even if their local government and jurisdiction ends up sucking and being tyrannical.

662
00:58:19,892 --> 00:58:25,892
will be all right. But we do need that 10 million Bitcoiners that own an amount that's meaningful to

663
00:58:25,892 --> 00:58:31,472
them, that's willing to write their legislator, that's willing to go to a meetup, that's willing

664
00:58:31,472 --> 00:58:47,780
to kind of fight for Bitcoin And run a node And run a node That that 3 of a society that intransigent minority that can flip society and basically inoculate Bitcoin and Bitcoiners from ever having to fight that war

665
00:58:48,340 --> 00:58:51,840
And it would be better for humans if we don't have to fight that war.

666
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:53,060
We have to prepare for it.

667
00:58:53,180 --> 00:58:56,900
And that's what privacy tech and good OPSEC and all that is all about.

668
00:58:56,900 --> 00:59:02,420
and we have to prepare for that because that actually looking unassailable and looking like

669
00:59:02,420 --> 00:59:10,140
the castle walls of the Bitcoiners are so dense and so tall and so strong makes the other side

670
00:59:10,140 --> 00:59:16,920
not willing to start that war and we want to keep it like that so invest in defense now

671
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:24,640
invest in you know invest our time and our effort and our energy toward building up our defenses

672
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:30,240
which mostly comes from just getting more people into Bitcoin in the right ways.

673
00:59:31,540 --> 00:59:37,660
Yeah, and we wanted to play out the way, like IP telephony, for instance,

674
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:45,880
was banned all across the world for a few years before all the phone companies just had to give up

675
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,540
because it's obviously better for everyone.

676
00:59:49,420 --> 00:59:54,060
And like so many internet things play out this way because when something is,

677
00:59:54,640 --> 01:00:04,160
obvious enough then the resistance to it is futile and bitcoin uh still requires you to like

678
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:13,300
public private key cryptography is is still a hurdle for people uh to get over so um to do

679
01:00:13,300 --> 01:00:18,620
bitcoin properly is is still a hurdle for some people uh i think it's a matter of time though

680
01:00:18,620 --> 01:00:24,140
and uh i think it's glaringly obvious that it's better if you know a bitcoiner if you hang out

681
01:00:24,140 --> 01:00:26,420
with a Bitcoiner and with other Bitcoiners

682
01:00:26,420 --> 01:00:28,520
and you just see how easy everything is

683
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:29,980
and you travel a lot,

684
01:00:30,220 --> 01:00:33,860
then it's so, as you said,

685
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:35,100
it's obvious to our wives,

686
01:00:35,260 --> 01:00:37,660
it's obvious to everyone around us

687
01:00:37,660 --> 01:00:40,220
that this thing is just better.

688
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:42,620
Yeah, I agree.

689
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:44,960
Yeah, yes.

690
01:00:45,340 --> 01:00:47,580
Anything we haven't talked about yet

691
01:00:47,580 --> 01:00:48,1000
that you want to bring up?

692
01:00:48,1000 --> 01:00:59,220
um i mean i i should i should mention one more product for for usa listeners um i think this is

693
01:00:59,220 --> 01:01:06,600
a good one uh we created swan rbx and launched it it's coming up on i think it's three weeks now

694
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:12,160
um so it's the real bitcoin exchange this lets you trade out of a bitcoin etf and into real

695
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:20,760
on-chain Bitcoin without a cap gains tax event. So this is like the main nasty thing left in the

696
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:26,700
US is that a lot of people are stuck in GBTC, the Grayscale Bitcoin Trust. And because they bought

697
01:01:26,700 --> 01:01:30,920
that instrument when Bitcoin was in the three and four digits, you know, six, seven, eight,

698
01:01:30,980 --> 01:01:37,440
nine, 10 years ago, they very cynically have their users trapped at 1.5% fees per year,

699
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:44,700
which is like 6x over ibit and 10x over morgan stanley for their etf fees so get the hell out

700
01:01:44,700 --> 01:01:51,240
of that paper bitcoin get into real bitcoin swan can help we do it for you uh it is complex it's

701
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:56,600
like a 24-step transaction to be able to do it right and legally uh not financial advice check

702
01:01:56,600 --> 01:02:01,580
with your advisor blah blah blah but we've been doing a ton of this and uh it is a really really

703
01:02:01,580 --> 01:02:06,200
smart thing to do to get out of that you don't need to do it for retirement accounts if you still

704
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:11,380
have dbtc in a retirement account just immediately get out of that and roll over your your retirement

705
01:02:11,380 --> 01:02:17,380
account into real bitcoin um because you don't pay tax in an ira anyway but uh if you have uh like

706
01:02:17,380 --> 01:02:22,660
you know um a trading account or something or an investment account that's non-retirement

707
01:02:22,660 --> 01:02:28,600
uh get in touch and again i just i i can't say enough and it's been awesome the last i started

708
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:34,700
about 10 days ago just giving out my email address on shows i did it on safe i got like four or five

709
01:02:34,700 --> 01:02:41,520
emails from people uh i did it on freaking kitco you know the gold show uh two two gold bugs emailed

710
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:47,720
me from kitco uh so yeah i'm giving out my email address on the internet hit me up uh cory at swan

711
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:53,800
dot com if you want to talk about anything uh or want our help uh for us folks um you know happy to

712
01:02:53,800 --> 01:03:00,480
help yeah and anywhere else on the internet you want to send my listeners uh most of my listeners

713
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:01,960
are Americans, by the way.

714
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:04,640
So speaking to the right audience.

715
01:03:04,900 --> 01:03:06,740
Hey, it's right there in the bottom.

716
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:09,060
There, Corey Swan on Twitter.

717
01:03:09,700 --> 01:03:11,520
The Swan handle, SWAN on Twitter

718
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:12,420
is probably pretty good.

719
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:15,600
I'm also occasionally posting

720
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:17,560
on the Boomer Network, LinkedIn.

721
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:20,140
Not a lot of Bitcoiners on there,

722
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:21,620
but you got to be everywhere.

723
01:03:23,100 --> 01:03:23,840
Yeah, that's pretty much it.

724
01:03:23,1000 --> 01:03:26,940
I think, oh, I would say, again,

725
01:03:27,380 --> 01:03:28,440
Cafe Bitcoin is back.

726
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:29,960
Today is day four of 50.

727
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:32,220
for this 50 days for freedom.

728
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:34,220
So I'm hosting every day that I can.

729
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:35,520
I've done every day this week.

730
01:03:36,220 --> 01:03:39,140
And it's 3 p.m. UK time,

731
01:03:39,260 --> 01:03:41,040
10 a.m. Eastern, 7 a.m. Pacific.

732
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:44,140
We roll for 90 minutes on Cafe Bitcoin,

733
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:45,680
live on X.

734
01:03:45,940 --> 01:03:48,320
So I hope you join us, by the way,

735
01:03:48,380 --> 01:03:50,120
whether it's today or next week or something.

736
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:53,140
You and Luke and all the European homies

737
01:03:53,140 --> 01:03:53,980
should start getting on.

738
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:57,279
Yeah, it's a rollicking good time.

739
01:03:57,400 --> 01:03:57,980
We chop it up.

740
01:03:57,980 --> 01:04:01,020
Yeah, it's a long time since I joined

741
01:04:01,020 --> 01:04:03,340
Café Swan

742
01:04:03,340 --> 01:04:05,279
session, I should do that

743
01:04:05,279 --> 01:04:07,400
I'm going to the

744
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:09,300
US here pretty soon, so we'll

745
01:04:09,300 --> 01:04:11,300
see when I get the time to hop on

746
01:04:11,300 --> 01:04:13,400
but I enjoyed

747
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:15,400
those that I've participated

748
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:17,320
in, I remember when Tomer was

749
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:18,400
Tomer was

750
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:21,300
in charge of those maybe, I don't

751
01:04:21,300 --> 01:04:22,880
remember if he was in charge, but he was

752
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:24,180
He was certainly on every day

753
01:04:24,180 --> 01:04:27,279
Yeah, we had a lot of good back and

754
01:04:27,279 --> 01:04:27,880
forths there.

755
01:04:29,460 --> 01:04:31,320
Yeah, and we'll see each

756
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:32,200
other in Helsinki.

757
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:35,240
At CTC Hell in the end of September.

758
01:04:36,260 --> 01:04:37,060
Use Call Infinity

759
01:04:37,060 --> 01:04:39,200
for 10% off and all of that.

760
01:04:39,860 --> 01:04:41,560
Okay. Come to Helsinki

761
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:43,180
and meet me

762
01:04:43,180 --> 01:04:45,380
and Corey. We'll have a fireside

763
01:04:45,380 --> 01:04:46,460
chat there, I believe.

764
01:04:46,900 --> 01:04:49,340
And some other things too, maybe a panel or two.

765
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:50,760
It's going to be great.

766
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:53,260
We'll make sure you have a good

767
01:04:53,260 --> 01:04:53,920
time in Finland.

768
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:56,779
I had

769
01:04:56,779 --> 01:04:58,480
I actually had breakfast today with

770
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:01,180
Susie Violet Ward,

771
01:05:01,420 --> 01:05:02,1000
the Forbes reporter, Bitcoin

772
01:05:02,1000 --> 01:05:04,060
Policy UK gal

773
01:05:04,060 --> 01:05:06,620
here in London, who I know is

774
01:05:06,620 --> 01:05:08,640
speaking or hosting some

775
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:10,860
sessions up there in Helsinki as well.

776
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:12,640
Yeah, it's going to be fun.

777
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:14,820
It'll be my first European Bitcoin

778
01:05:14,820 --> 01:05:15,580
conference ever.

779
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:18,840
Other than hosting Bitcoin Istanbul a few years

780
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:19,160
back.

781
01:05:19,940 --> 01:05:21,940
That was fun.

782
01:05:22,620 --> 01:05:24,779
The Bridget Jones of Bitcoin.

783
01:05:25,519 --> 01:05:26,519
Susie is great.

784
01:05:26,779 --> 01:05:36,100
there you go i love it uh yes with that i wish you all the best and um uh great to chat with you

785
01:05:36,100 --> 01:05:43,240
uh refreshing to that's no this is this is the uh the infinity heart oh yeah yeah there we go

786
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:48,300
infinity show there you go i like that and then there's a swan which is like this and then you

787
01:05:48,300 --> 01:05:55,460
make a swan oh yeah yeah yeah yeah uh yeah i have it in my surname so right with you that's true

788
01:05:55,460 --> 01:05:57,560
refreshing to not talk about

789
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:00,040
BIP110 for once

790
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:00,440
also

791
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:03,279
we got

792
01:06:03,279 --> 01:06:06,019
67 minutes into the show before you

793
01:06:06,019 --> 01:06:08,140
said it and now we're saying goodbye

794
01:06:08,140 --> 01:06:09,600
so well done sir

795
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:12,019
good luck and we'll

796
01:06:12,019 --> 01:06:12,519
talk soon

797
01:06:12,519 --> 01:06:15,820
this has been the Bitcoin Infinity show

798
01:06:15,820 --> 01:06:17,820
like, subscribe, brush your teeth and

799
01:06:17,820 --> 01:06:19,220
see you next time

800
01:06:19,220 --> 01:06:20,040
adios amigos

801
01:06:25,460 --> 01:06:55,440
Thank you.