The Truth About the UASF and BIP-110 with Giacomo Zucco | Bitcoin Infinity Show #221

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Giacomo, a warm welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

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Lovely to have you here, as always.

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Knut, thank you very much for inviting me back.

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Yes, we have a lot to talk about.

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I mean, we haven't spoken since pre-Bip 110 fork failing or not failing,

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depending on what side you are.

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And we have a lot to unpack.

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You're back with Ocean again.

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I'm very curious about that.

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And I think you have made a lot of friends and a lot of enemies, as always in Bitcoin.

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A little bit my thing.

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It's Bitcoin's thing and my thing, peculiarly.

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Yeah, I know exactly what that feels like.

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So I want to unpack some of these things.

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To begin with, what's your assessment of the fork?

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Let's start there.

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what happened and why could the miners ignore the fork attempt without people running a user-rejected

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soft fork? Why did the prisoner's dilemma scenario never play out? How does this actually work?

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What is your definition of an economic node and how much do nodes matter going forward?

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Can you give an overview of that, please?

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Yeah, I think it was what happened is what I expected to happen.

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And it's a combination of the proposal not having the large support that an internal echo chamber effect made some people believe it had.

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And on top of that, even a way major support not being enough to change Bitcoin's rules to the degree that some mythology about SegWit created over the years.

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So let's start with the second, because the second, I think, is more objective, while the first we can enter more like something which is fresh and recent.

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So I published a meme, which is a very leftist meme, which says that it's very large and nobody will read it.

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You know, the left cannot meme and there is like the giant meme.

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But I'm proud of it, even if it's very leftist in the sense that nobody will read it.

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And I used the different, the meme about the two groups calling each other our heroic pioneers,

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they are brutish invaders and that kind of stuff.

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And I used it to symbolize something which was coming out of my conversation in person with Jeff Booth.

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Because Jeff Booth was saying to me, I agree with you that BIP 110 is bad,

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but there is a fight going on in the background.

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There is some kind of fight. I can see it and you can see it as well. So we may just as well

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select a battlefield to that fight. If not now, when? If we are not fighting back now, when?

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And I think that in order to, I explained to him, but he knew, I clarified to him that in Bitcoin,

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there are many battlefields. One is trying to unilaterally change the rules in an expensive way.

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That's called an hard fork.

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Imposing an hard fork is the harder thing to do because the status quo is against you.

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Everybody else not caring is just running the same consensus.

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So every machine without a human intervention, every business that doesn't really have a

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process to change, the status quo is a very important force.

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If you try to change the rule in an expensive way, the status quo will be against you.

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And that's what SegWit2x tried to do with an overwhelming power, economic power.

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and then I will enter into economic power. SegWit2x had a huge economic power because

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exchanges, 80% of the miners, etc., etc. And they failed because the battlefield was too hard.

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And the community had the defensive power of basically being in your citadel and you have

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these people trying to come in your citadel, but your citadel is status quo, is habit,

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is time, is Lindy effect, is a shelling point of repeatability.

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And we defended and we were very effective.

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Then there is a second thing, which is defending from a soft fork.

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So the miners are trying not to push him by a transaction,

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but to, we can use the word sensor, even if it's a little bit charged,

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sensor value transaction because of some reasons.

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resisting to this is trickier, but it's actually possible. There are many discussions and I didn't

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even try to do it because I didn't think BAP 110 was worthy of any real active opposition because

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of this low support. But with some more nasty things, like for example, with drive chain,

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I was ready to do something of that.

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And I'm not talking about RSTD because, sorry, the use of resistance of fork,

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because that will be symmetric.

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That will put the defender in the very same position of the attacker.

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The attacker wants to restrict the rules.

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The defender will counter restrict the rules in another way,

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which is completely giving away the advantage of status quo.

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So then you move outside of consensus and you go into mempool policies.

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In mempool policies, there is also an asymmetry.

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There is a possibility to enlarge or loosen the mempool rules, which is the easier thing to do,

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and tighten it, which is the harder thing to do.

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Because in this case, you don't need economic nodes.

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You just need connection nodes, like topologic nodes, to be stronger, more connected.

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because if you want to propagate something, this is a typical Andy Beck sentence about intolerant

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minority. But it's true. In a network, if you have a small minority that would be more permissive,

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you need a very large majority to be unpermissive in terms of selection. So I think that what

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happened is that the movement, and then we can go more into what socially the movement wanted,

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Bitcoin is money, core is too much centralized or corrupted, or shitcoins are bad and we are

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losing the reactions to shitcoin or whatever. Whatever was the reasoning or just my was mostly

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a principal point about definition of spam because it was triggered by bad philosophy on spam.

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Everybody had a battle and this battle was felt, but the battlefield choose was something very bad,

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which is imposing a soft fork. That's only possible where the majority is, the economic

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majority is overwhelming. Now, what is an economic majority? Economic majority, basically, it's very

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hard to measure. If it was easy to measure, it will also be easy to game. Instead, it's very hard

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to measure. It's basically the average of how much transactions you process receiving, because it

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means that if you go, so if you go out of the consensus with Bitcoin, people that will try to

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pay you, you will tell them, sorry, I didn't receive my payment. And that's something that

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will make your client worried because they cannot pay you. So how much important is your service?

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If McDonald's refuse the dollars tomorrow, some people will go along with the new McDonald's

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choice because McDonald's is important. If I stop receiving Bitcoin for my consultancy and I only

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receive Zaxx bucks, people will just say, I'm more commodity, I'm replaceable, I'm disposable.

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I'm not that important.

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Now, it's not that we are divided between important like McDonald's and unimportant like me.

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It's a spectrum and many less important people together can compound economic importance.

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It is basically a good metric approximation could be the amount of money in purchasing power terms.

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So let's say in present dollar terms, you process for unit of time.

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There may be another measure of economic weight, which is hodling.

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So even if you don't process anything, but you hold a lot of Bitcoin,

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if you're willing to dump on one consensus rule, but not on the other,

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and buying.

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So if your bid and ask will differentiate among the rules,

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so basically you are dumping your airdrop

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on one side or the other that also matter on the price and the price will matter on incentives So I would say that the hodlers and market receivers merchants are the economic node My node on AWS will do something

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in terms of propagating transactions, but it will do nothing in terms of making people scared,

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economically scared of changing consensus versus me. Okay. I need to unpack this because I think

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I need to up my own understanding of Bitcoin and incentives in this sense.

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So I'll tell you how I view it, and then you can poke holes in my worldview here, if you want.

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Because the way I see it, when you're faced with this type of software, if you're a miner,

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what you have to take into consideration is exactly what you say.

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if people are going to refuse to use your payment system in the future.

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So what that means is that they will not get the fees nor the reward from those people.

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Well, they will get the reward anyway because it comes from the rest of the network.

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But you end up having fewer participants in the network, which is bad for you, objectively speaking,

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because you're losing out on those fees.

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However, if they think that this movement is too small, then they have their other economic incentives, including being friends with Saylor and Adam Back and people who are big in the space but were against this fork.

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So they have to weigh this economic decision one against the other.

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And the sales numbers of Start9s and Umbrils, like 5,000 new nodes fired up approximately,

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like this is all of this is approximation.

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But I think that if I was a fiat-minded miner, I wouldn't have cared that much about those

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sales numbers because I would know that I would suspect that most of those are insignificant

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nodes that have no incoming traffic or that much Bitcoin in them to begin with or going

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through them.

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So I didn't have that much to lose from the fees.

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Is that an accurate description of the economic decision a miner is forced to take in these

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situations?

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I think it's very accurate.

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I don't have any hole to poke, except maybe just to clarify the size of this factor, because

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I think that listing them in a flat way may be a little bit misleading.

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I think that the incentive to actually run the new rules is to avoid to have your block

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reward not accepted, which is a strong incentive.

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It's very clear.

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That depends on the amount of people that will reject it.

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What is the incentive to keep the current rule and not to just follow any support just

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to be safe?

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So tomorrow, Peter Todd is saying, I'm going demo reg.

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Well, I'm a minor.

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let's just do Demorage just to be sure so I don't lose money. Why aren't miners doing this?

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Because they're the counter incentive. I think that the stronger counter incentive that you

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didn't list it clearly, but I know you know it, but I think it's very clear is inertia and doing

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nothing and status quo. Every operational change. So it's not the same to expand the rule or to not

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reduce the rules. So whatever was status quo before has an enormous weight in the operation,

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which is the asymmetry I was talking about. So if you are asking, if you are telling, if miners

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want to do an hard fork, and a small amount of people are resisting, miners are like, okay,

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we have to change operations, betting on the fact that users will also change it. This is scary.

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The other way is, wait, we have to not change operation based on the fact that the users will

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or not change operation, I'm confident.

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It's not even worth the effort to change.

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So resistance to change, inertia, especially in big operations like miners,

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also means regulatory concern.

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What do I do if I do this?

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Operational concern.

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You have to do stuff.

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And that's a threshold of attention, which is very high to poke.

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Then the second is actually something like the fees,

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the reason not to run this fork, which is a bad reason for me.

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It's a bad reason for Bitcoin, but it's true,

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is that the proposal of the fork was likely reducing the fee revenue to the miner by cutting

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out some spam. And miners, they are all mining spam, including some miners on ocean. I'm sorry

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about that because it's a short-term gain, it's a short-term profit against long-term healthy,

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but that's the economic incentive right now. So the fork was asking them not to do it.

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And third, there is also what you mentioned, which is reputational damage.

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If you follow some rule, you can be insulted by Andy Beck or Saylor, Giacomo Zuck or whatever.

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That has a small weight, but it's not a zero weight, reputational effect.

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What I think is that this connected with the fact that the actual weight, which was my second argument,

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the actual weight of this fork in economic sense was basically zero in the sense that from the

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point of view of business receiving money on the daily base compared to a stake and shake

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or even whatever, it was very, very small. It was mostly Parma node, which is great,

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but it was not a credible threat. Parma node, who is now still on legacy,

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by the way he never he is but yeah exactly so it was not even a real threat but it was a potential

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threat so yeah yeah my my intuition here would be that the these two out of the three explanations

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inertia and and reputational damage have a lot more weight than the actual spam because spam

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doesn't give miners that much money and and that that if anything that that the fork sort of had

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a fighting chance that there but that inertia and reputational damage weigh in way more than

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the bit 110 performance thought because actual spam is not fees from spam is not giving miners

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as much as one might think it could be if a reputationally speaking uh it's complex because

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the miners for example will never be so scared to uh i mean it depends probably on the age of

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Bitcoin. During SegWit2x proposal, miners were almost reputationally incentivized like Jianghu,

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Fork Your Mother. They were incentivized to show who's the boss. Reputational for miners was like,

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we are in charge, not the developers. So there could be a reputation incentive to go against

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Saylor or Adam or me because there is the incentive to blend in and to be perceived well

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by the community and the incentive to be perceived as in charge and powerful and the one who

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causes shock. Now miners are more, they have been humbled in Segwit2x. And so now it seems like

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they're still square into the part of being like, I just want to be a good boy with developers,

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with core devs and with influencer and stuff like that. Yeah. And herein lies a problem,

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I think because you always have this battle between the different groups and at the end of the day like we want plebs to be in charge don't we like we that's important point I don't I want state I want fixed rules to be in charge as much as possible against plebs if needed.

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all right so fixed rule so yeah two things here come to mind uh we're going uh we can start with

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bip 148 is our collective memory of bip 148 the user activated soft work during segwit and the

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block size wars is our collective memory of that wrong like did it have as much power as the

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romanticized view of it uh makes it out to be i think uh yes it's wrong and no it didn't uh it has

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been romanticized and also hyperbolized over the years.

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What happened was that there was a fork proposal, which was the actual circuit fork, not the

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URSF.

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And this proposal had an overwhelming amount of support.

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So it was basically already a proposal that was giving a very strong incentive to miners to go along But miners had a counter incentive In this case mostly reputational governance control

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It was not about fees.

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Well, one miner had another incentive, which was covert ASIC boost.

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Okay, that miner had that.

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But it was also mostly Xi'an showing the Communist Party that he was in charge of Bitcoin.

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It was a battle for dominance, for governance.

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So everybody, every developer supported the change.

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Most of the users, even misunderstanding it,

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but we were supporting in a religious way.

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In Insight, I'm not a fan of Segwit anymore as I was,

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but in the way that the community behaved,

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I became a great supporter.

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Antonopoulos was explaining to us why Segwit was great.

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Everybody, Luke was Segwit.

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Peter Todd was Segwit.

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Even some of the big blockers were secured as long as you do it with an earth fork.

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So it was uncontroversial.

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On top of that, it was already arrived to an amount of enforcing that was already sufficient

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to fork away the non-compliant miner.

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So the hash rate was already high in support.

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What was missing was just the amount to actually create the activation in a very cautious

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activation process, which was 95%. So there was a super majority of miners enforcing the rule

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already and promising to enforce it, but not really the activation threshold that we use as

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a coordination. And then there was a threat of hard fork from a very powerful group as a counter.

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So we will hard fork. So if we soft fork now, we prevent an hard fork later. So it was a very

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unique situation, I am convinced that without UASF, Segwit will have activated anyway, maybe

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one year later, maybe six months later, but it would have activated for the level of support

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yet. When Segwit, when the UASF happened, what it did was basically to convince a cartel,

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a very tight coordinated cartel of miners to capitulate and to just activate the thing

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with one major loss, which was a covered ASIC boost, which at this point was also

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discovered already in the open.

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So it was not this advantage to beat Maine that it used to be just before.

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So it's not that nothing happened.

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It was cool.

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But the mythology that if I buy a box and I run a note, now there is a vote.

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And if it's many of us voting, we can set the rules.

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This is some kind of extrapolation, of democratic extrapolation of the UASF, which was, I think, completely disconnected from the reality of the event.

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All right. So let's dissect Bit.1.10 a bit more.

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Yeah, I think we are on the same page with saying that core version 30 is what triggered the soft fork supposal.

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We are.

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Proposal.

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If that hadn't happened, if Core had just chosen to not go against the will of that many plebs, those plebs would still be here, in effect, because there would never have been a soft fork proposal.

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At least, this is a bit of Captain Hindsight here, I know, but I think there was an obvious trigger in Core V30.

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We can agree on that.

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I personally wasn't that concerned with the large op returns, but I thought the fork was good for other reasons, mainly like the taproot, the op if being 99.98% spam, and we might as well just get rid of that.

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And as things evolved, I thought of this as quite a good way to remind the developers of who's actually in charge.

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Now it turned out that we weren't in charge.

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So given all that, and that Bitcoin has now lost a lot of very dedicated plebs that care a lot about, and not only plebs, but developers and influencers.

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I'm speaking, of course, mainly about Luke and Mechanic and everyone surrounding them, Chris Guida and Crater and all of my friends who have now dedicated their lives to this fork and taken the enormous risk of firing the miners, as they call it.

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which I think is like, I refuse to call them shitcoiners

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because I think the most fundamental thing in Bitcoin

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is that you get to decide what Bitcoin is.

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You get to decide the rules of the money you're using.

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And the only thing that would make you switch

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to a different set of rules or cling on to old rules,

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if you will, is that you have a lot to lose

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from changing them.

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Like there's making the wrong choice

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in which set of rules you adhere to can be very costly for you.

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So I respect the right to, like it's the Evelyn Beatrice Hall,

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but paraphrasing here again, I don't agree with your fork,

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but I will defend your right to the death, your right to fork it.

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That is sort of the underlying philosophy here.

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Where am I going with this?

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But yeah, so given the fact that V30 is what triggered this whole thing, is Bitcoin now on this slippery slope because we have lost so many good fighters?

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Is Bitcoin less robust now than before Core V30 was even suggested?

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And in that case, why were the developers so adamant about this change, seemingly insignificant mempool change, if they couldn't envision the enormous, almost catastrophic reaction to this whole thing?

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I mean, it would have been better for Bitcoin if all of these people were still here, I think.

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And I think most people agree with that.

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But will the developers ever admit that it was their fault, in a sense?

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Or what's going on there?

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What's your view on that whole situation?

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Many points.

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So let's start.

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We agree that it was caused by core behavior in V30.

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Absolutely.

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I agree that we have lost some valuable things for Bitcoin.

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Particularly, I'm concerned about Luke because, yeah, I mean, Matthew was good in education.

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Mechanic was a friend and a very interesting voice.

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But I think the real point is, look, Luke was, I believe in Andy's sentence about the 10th man.

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And I believe in that representation of Luke as a contrarian.

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My problem with the recent events is that Luke's contrarianism was used to be insulated.

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Like he says something crazy, like let's change the proof of work.

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Nobody will go along.

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Some other dev will say, well, maybe, but most of the people will say, fuck you.

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No.

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And this kind of thing will remain as a possible breaking of certainty, as a possible controversy,

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which I always, I said it several times.

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For me, being friend or at least we have to check with Luke or former friend or whatever, with both him and Peter is the same way Peter Todd will go along with something crazy like let's introduce Demurage or Taylor mission.

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And then everybody will say, fuck you.

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But it's good to have these people around.

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What is not good is when these people become leaders, when these people can really say something crazy and people will actually go along with that as something non-crazy.

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And that's something which for me is unprecedented with Luke.

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Luke was always the crazy one and I always respected that because there was an internal consistency in the craziness.

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There was a provocation.

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There was a challenge to my view to try to keep it consistent.

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And then suddenly he's the guy that is calling the shot on a Discord and he will just say,

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let's do this, let's remove the supply, let's have the supplies.

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And some people will just go along.

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So look for me, especially the loss here.

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I agree with that.

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Now is this bad for Bitcoin I think yes Is this unprecedentedly bad I think no I think that for example when there was the big the block war we have lost a lot of libertarians

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Pork fest people in New Hampshire, they were mostly Roger Ver people.

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People in Japan that were strong anarcho-capitalists.

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Roger Ver was a strong political defender of libertarian principles.

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Yeah, but I'd say Roger Ver had a very, he was more of a LARP-itarian in the sense of actually understanding the economics, I think.

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I agree, but that's also something we could say for many of our BIPers, BIP 110ers as well.

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Not everybody is, yeah.

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So, not everybody is Konza.

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Some of them were just throwing stuff around.

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Did we lose Konza?

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I don't know.

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I didn't check on him.

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I hope not.

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I don't think so.

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I don't think so.

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not. And it's a lot of people, I think, have a view of Austrian economics like that it's

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sort of optional and that it's a worldview and do not view it as the accurate representation of

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reality. For sure, it was a hit, the connection between Antispy movement and Austrian economics.

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Within the context of this fork was a small loss in the Austrian economics defense within Bitcoin

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because it was always very, thanks mostly to CypherD, and it was very respected, very powerful.

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Like, it was not really easy to go around and say to people, ah, fuck Austrian economics in Bitcoin.

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We were like, it's like saying fuck cypher, cypherpunk principles.

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It's an important part of the story.

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Now, most of that, not most of that, but big part of that was used as an argument in the fork and on the losing side.

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So now I see some anti-Austrian regurgitation, which is not unsimilar to some level of anti-libertarian, more compliant view in Bitcoin entering when some of the big cashier that were more aggressive in the libertarian sense went away.

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I agree that Roger Ver didn't understand economics properly.

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Otherwise, he will understand not forking as well.

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But what I want to say is that it's not the first time that an internal struggle will

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remove something that was valuable to Bitcoin because it was hijacked in something that

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was ultimately not accepted by Bitcoin.

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Even, I mean, freaking Paul Stork made interesting contribution a few years ago, in my opinion.

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But the problem is that Bitcoin derangement syndrome is unforgiving.

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If you try to change Bitcoin, you fail, you will go down with your ship of your ego against

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Bitcoin.

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And even if you have value to provide otherwise, that happened to Paul, that happened to many,

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many other people.

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Now, I will fight back on not using shitcoin.

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I mean, you're free not to use it, but I will use shitcoin with no problem because what

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00:29:21,792 --> 00:29:27,672
you say this through, I will defend the right of anybody to define what they mean with Bitcoin for

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themselves, to run their node with any rule they want and to call it whatever the heck they want.

331
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But that's exactly the same right that I grant to any other shitcoiners. I don't think that I should

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stop big cashers from defining Bitcoin another way or just running Bitcoin with other rules,

333
00:29:46,312 --> 00:29:51,312
even if I disagree with the merit of the rules. So it's not new. My term shitcoin was never

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intended as a denial of the fundamental freedom of changing your rules, just sacrificing your

335
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economic consensus with the other. Of course, I was very aggressive back then with Roger,

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selling Bitcoin on Bitcoin.com. And if you ask, if you did, I want to buy Bitcoin,

337
00:30:10,552 --> 00:30:16,732
you were buying big cash. That's a kind of when your self-definition is used in a way

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which is intentionally misleading for other people that are not really understanding the

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change in their definition. So you know that they don't know what you mean, but you do it anyway.

340
00:30:28,092 --> 00:30:33,612
I think that's dishonest. Yeah, but here you have levels of autism here. I think

341
00:30:33,612 --> 00:30:39,952
in Luke's case, he actually believes 100% that his coin is Bitcoin.

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I give a pass to Luke about that because I mean, with Luke, it's the same with everything,

343
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right? I remember I told this story sometimes to people when he came to Milan for the first time,

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he wanted me to bring him to a Catholic church and we spent like two days back and forth. Yes,

345
00:30:55,352 --> 00:30:58,692
look, of course I can bring, no, a Catholic church, but of course it's full of Catholic

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church, but I mean a Catholic church. And then after two days, I understood Sedevacantism and

347
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everything. So for Luke, that's totally standard. He will just calmly and politely using his own

348
00:31:09,952 --> 00:31:16,572
definitions and it will, I think, ignore the fact that you don't understand it. But what I'm saying

349
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is that, well, let me get back to the main point. I don't see any, I agree with your shitcoin defense.

350
00:31:23,312 --> 00:31:28,852
I don't see why it will be different this time from any other time, except for the very personal

351
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fact that we have our friends there now, which I didn't understand during the block size wars.

352
00:31:34,692 --> 00:31:36,832
I didn't have many big block friends.

353
00:31:37,252 --> 00:31:42,192
I understood people suffering like Eric Lombroso was telling me, oh, I'm losing all my friends.

354
00:31:42,512 --> 00:31:44,952
And the Mandric was like, oh, all my friends are.

355
00:31:45,272 --> 00:31:47,612
So I've seen the suffering.

356
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Now I feel it.

357
00:31:49,092 --> 00:31:51,812
Now, yeah, these were my friends and now they are in a shitcoin.

358
00:31:53,412 --> 00:32:02,592
Yeah, I still hope and think that I can remain friends with them simply because of the fact that I wouldn't have been friends with them

359
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if they were actual assholes like many people in the big cash fork uh but these people aren't uh

360
00:32:08,912 --> 00:32:15,392
and i'm using terms like these people which which which i don't want to do like uh i i still i still

361
00:32:15,392 --> 00:32:23,492
view um these people now i said it again but as my friends and i i don't want it to be another way

362
00:32:23,492 --> 00:32:26,292
Tropic Thunder moment

363
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So

364
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you have

365
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before we go on to Ocean and all the other

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stuff we want to talk about

367
00:32:33,232 --> 00:32:36,012
you have a famous tweet or should I

368
00:32:36,012 --> 00:32:37,972
say infamous tweet in which you

369
00:32:37,972 --> 00:32:39,812
semi agree with

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Peter Todd that

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you say something like Demerage itself

372
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or a little bit of

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fixed inflation would not be

374
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categorically wrong

375
00:32:50,012 --> 00:32:51,772
and I think people

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00:32:51,772 --> 00:32:57,232
misinterpret you there because i think what you mean is that if these were the rules set from the

377
00:32:57,232 --> 00:33:04,052
very beginning then they would be okay uh but but but they're not okay if if i think you're still

378
00:33:04,052 --> 00:33:09,932
you still have the view that they're not okay to implement later absolutely i i largely yeah

379
00:33:09,932 --> 00:33:18,872
my question is if if there was even one sat inflation in in bitcoin at one point ever

380
00:33:18,872 --> 00:33:23,092
would you completely abandon it at that point or not?

381
00:33:23,332 --> 00:33:24,072
I would.

382
00:33:24,172 --> 00:33:24,932
Because I would.

383
00:33:25,512 --> 00:33:26,552
Yeah, I would as well.

384
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Not for the set and not for the economic effect of the sets.

385
00:33:31,052 --> 00:33:35,252
For the precedent that given a strong enough emergency,

386
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it would be easy to manipulate people into changing the economic rule.

387
00:33:38,832 --> 00:33:41,172
And that would set the precedent very clear.

388
00:33:41,612 --> 00:33:45,972
I would probably find myself in a similar situation to these people, our friends,

389
00:33:45,972 --> 00:33:48,092
in the sense that maybe I would say,

390
00:33:48,172 --> 00:33:49,812
okay, maybe investment-wise,

391
00:33:49,912 --> 00:33:51,752
I don't want to sell this stuff now,

392
00:33:51,832 --> 00:33:55,012
but my belief in the unicity of this thing

393
00:33:55,012 --> 00:33:56,852
and importance of this thing just collapsed.

394
00:33:57,312 --> 00:33:58,492
Maybe I can still buy it.

395
00:33:58,592 --> 00:34:00,152
Maybe I can still use it if it's...

396
00:34:00,152 --> 00:34:02,752
But just like I can use whatever.

397
00:34:03,172 --> 00:34:06,332
One time in 2015, I had to use Dogecoin

398
00:34:06,332 --> 00:34:09,892
to give it to somebody because I've lost a bet.

399
00:34:10,272 --> 00:34:10,892
I did it.

400
00:34:11,212 --> 00:34:15,912
I did use USDT on Liquid to incorporate my company.

401
00:34:15,972 --> 00:34:20,352
I felt bad, but okay, I can do it practically, but I will not believe in it.

402
00:34:20,652 --> 00:34:26,112
While right now, I believe that Bitcoin has the strength to resist social

403
00:34:26,112 --> 00:34:31,492
influence in changing economic rules, rag pulling people with economics.

404
00:34:31,692 --> 00:34:35,292
What I meant with that tweet and I severely overestimate.

405
00:34:35,292 --> 00:34:37,092
So I try not to be tribal.

406
00:34:37,192 --> 00:34:43,032
I try to say it as I see it without minding for my team or my friends or my squad.

407
00:34:43,082 --> 00:34:49,042
But I underestimate how other tribal people will assume I'm tribal.

408
00:34:49,482 --> 00:34:53,922
So I tweeted something that is the same thing I've tweeted about that argument ever.

409
00:34:54,322 --> 00:35:12,722
I pushed a link with an interview between me and Peter Todd in Prague in 2016, saying the exact same thing, which was basically, I agree that if Bitcoin was created in 2008, in the first iteration, with fixed inflation, it would probably still work.

410
00:35:13,082 --> 00:35:18,062
I don't agree it will work better in the sense of having tile emission to pay for

411
00:35:18,062 --> 00:35:21,782
minor estate. That's a broken argument. I don't think it's useful, but I think it

412
00:35:21,782 --> 00:35:29,162
would have worked mostly just as the same. My only doubt about that is that fixed

413
00:35:29,162 --> 00:35:35,362
supply is a way easier thing to explain than asymptotically zero inflation. So I

414
00:35:35,362 --> 00:35:40,322
think that education-wise, marketing-wise, that will have been a mistake, not a

415
00:35:40,322 --> 00:35:47,562
catastrophic mistake. If Satoshi created 50 Bitcoin per blocks and that's it, I think Bitcoin could

416
00:35:47,562 --> 00:35:54,662
have had some way to survive anyway. Maybe better if it was still decreasing. What, for example,

417
00:35:54,742 --> 00:36:01,162
I would have preferred, if you ask me if I could go back in time, I think that it will be way better,

418
00:36:01,762 --> 00:36:08,062
more elegant, not way better, more elegant to have 21 million as a asymptote with infinite

419
00:36:08,062 --> 00:36:14,702
divisibility. So you never have the end of a subsidy. You always have a small subsidy

420
00:36:14,702 --> 00:36:21,442
that becomes sub-Satoshi forever. That's very elegant mathematically, and that's also put

421
00:36:21,442 --> 00:36:28,282
to rest some small part of the realistic objection by Todd and others, which is mostly one, which

422
00:36:28,282 --> 00:36:35,082
is fee sniping. In a moment where subsidy is zero, fees are everything. If you have asymmetrically

423
00:36:35,082 --> 00:36:41,022
high fee in one block and not the others, miners of the next block may fight to get the first

424
00:36:41,022 --> 00:36:46,442
instead of continuing the chain. There was a Stanford paper a few years ago simulating the

425
00:36:46,442 --> 00:36:54,282
theory. It's not a big deal, but it is a possible very niche problem in 2140 or whatever. Infinite

426
00:36:54,282 --> 00:37:01,582
divisibility would be cool. Now, changing anything now, including one single Satoshi after the final

427
00:37:01,582 --> 00:37:07,982
Alvin, for me, would be a complete destruction of every credibility in Bitcoin monetary policy.

428
00:37:08,622 --> 00:37:14,382
Maybe, and I want to poke the, I want to be hated here.

429
00:37:14,482 --> 00:37:15,902
I want really to try to be provocative.

430
00:37:16,642 --> 00:37:19,362
A proposal to increase divisibility would be an hard fork.

431
00:37:20,002 --> 00:37:28,622
What will make it less bad than tail emission with one Satoshi more is that at least it will

432
00:37:28,622 --> 00:37:29,522
not be arbitrary.

433
00:37:29,522 --> 00:37:33,782
There are infinite ways to increase the supply.

434
00:37:34,202 --> 00:37:37,842
And if you do it once, people will do it again with some fake emergency.

435
00:37:38,222 --> 00:37:39,262
So there are infinite ways.

436
00:37:39,682 --> 00:37:44,562
There is just one way to go from cutoff to eternal asymptote.

437
00:37:44,962 --> 00:37:49,022
So in a way, you create a precedent, which I will not like.

438
00:37:49,062 --> 00:37:50,082
I will fight against it.

439
00:37:50,382 --> 00:37:55,362
But if the overwhelming majority of the economy introduced infinite divisibility,

440
00:37:55,362 --> 00:38:03,822
that's non-arbitrary enough that I may still be saying, okay, guys, we fucked up because we

441
00:38:03,822 --> 00:38:08,302
changed the rule. But you see, we changed the rule in a way that keeps the cap, that doesn't

442
00:38:08,302 --> 00:38:14,042
change in retrospect any investment decision by any investors. The only thing it does is changing

443
00:38:14,042 --> 00:38:21,562
the dynamics about the final cutoff of mining in the future. I would still probably oppose it,

444
00:38:21,562 --> 00:38:27,322
but it would probably not lose any interest in Bitcoin if eternal divisibility succeeded.

445
00:38:27,762 --> 00:38:32,602
But anything that would go above the cap, it would destroy any credibility

446
00:38:32,602 --> 00:38:38,422
because it's the typical just this time, just for this emergency and then nothing more.

447
00:38:38,602 --> 00:38:44,262
But that's a typical captured state in which if it's not captured by an elite,

448
00:38:44,602 --> 00:38:46,882
it could also be captured by the panic, by the plebs,

449
00:38:47,122 --> 00:38:50,682
because plebs are possible to capture just as well.

450
00:38:51,562 --> 00:39:14,082
Okay, I'm going to have to devil's advocate that and say that even that proposal would be fatal. And I say that because the rules are what they are now, and people have made their economic decisions believing that they will not change these fundamentals. So any change to the fundamentals is at least potentially fatal.

451
00:39:14,082 --> 00:39:31,042
Also, the FUD about when the reward is zero SATs instead of one SAT and you have only fees to rely on, that's not entirely true because you can use Bitcoin miners for other things than Bitcoin mining, including heating homes.

452
00:39:31,042 --> 00:39:37,902
And you can also mine because you do have an incentive to mine.

453
00:39:37,982 --> 00:39:49,022
If you have a stack of Bitcoin and you want Bitcoin to work, at some point, you could even be forced to mine or forced to help the network continue on as intended.

454
00:39:50,202 --> 00:39:54,242
Otherwise, the value of your coins risks going to zero.

455
00:39:54,402 --> 00:39:55,702
So you sort of have to do it.

456
00:39:55,702 --> 00:39:58,922
So I think that there's a lot of FUD here.

457
00:39:58,922 --> 00:40:02,702
And it's also completely uncharted territory for mankind.

458
00:40:03,002 --> 00:40:05,082
We've never had anything like this before.

459
00:40:05,522 --> 00:40:08,562
But I think, as with most other things, that it's FUD.

460
00:40:09,122 --> 00:40:11,022
So, yeah, what would you say to that?

461
00:40:11,422 --> 00:40:18,442
Yeah, the only correction that I will feel like trying is that on the heating thing is different.

462
00:40:18,682 --> 00:40:27,822
So I think that the only realistic scenario where there is any issue with a zero subsidy is block sniping, which is a very particular scenario.

463
00:40:27,822 --> 00:40:37,062
In that scenario, the miners will hit their house, whether they are continuing the chain or trying to just steal the previous fees.

464
00:40:37,142 --> 00:40:38,182
They are still hitting the house.

465
00:40:38,642 --> 00:40:49,382
So the subsidy is what actually pushed them to accept the continuation of the chain, because the subsidy will only be valid if they build on the…

466
00:40:49,382 --> 00:40:53,742
Yeah, quick, back to one of my arguments.

467
00:40:53,882 --> 00:40:55,802
Maybe I articulated it poorly.

468
00:40:55,802 --> 00:41:02,902
But if they do that, if they choose to snipe instead of, don't they risk their own stacks?

469
00:41:03,402 --> 00:41:07,162
And at 2140, isn't the world sort of hyper-Bitcoinized already?

470
00:41:07,222 --> 00:41:10,202
So you would value your sats way more than your fiat anyway?

471
00:41:10,762 --> 00:41:12,362
It's a 10-preference argument.

472
00:41:12,622 --> 00:41:13,922
They don't risk this.

473
00:41:14,122 --> 00:41:17,962
Immediately, they are trying to maximize their stack by gaining more Bitcoin.

474
00:41:18,322 --> 00:41:22,002
If everybody does like that forever, Bitcoin is dead.

475
00:41:22,302 --> 00:41:25,602
But if you do that, you get some money and Bitcoin is not dead.

476
00:41:25,602 --> 00:41:30,642
So it's a typical dilemma of time preference, which if everybody acts like this forever,

477
00:41:31,042 --> 00:41:31,862
everything is destroyed.

478
00:41:32,022 --> 00:41:34,822
But I'm not asking everybody to do this forever.

479
00:41:34,942 --> 00:41:37,982
I just wanted to do it myself, specifically right now.

480
00:41:38,302 --> 00:41:41,022
I don't think block sniping is a fatal threat.

481
00:41:41,382 --> 00:41:47,902
And I agree with you that messing with divisibility could be, I will not assign a zero probability

482
00:41:47,902 --> 00:41:51,822
that you open up the Pandora's box of arbitrary monetary change.

483
00:41:51,882 --> 00:41:53,262
I would oppose the fork anyway.

484
00:41:53,262 --> 00:41:57,802
I'm just saying that there is a difference between something which is arbitrary.

485
00:41:58,202 --> 00:42:09,462
So, for example, the solution to the integer overflow bugs in block height or whatever will be an R fork, technically speaking.

486
00:42:10,042 --> 00:42:16,682
I am not scared of precedence because it's a totally non-arbitrary R fork.

487
00:42:16,682 --> 00:42:21,982
You are changing the rules, yes, but you are changing the rules in a way that is obvious.

488
00:42:21,982 --> 00:42:29,602
is a super strong shilling point. There is not a discussion to have coordination, power,

489
00:42:29,602 --> 00:42:37,222
influence, social influence. It's just math. It's just like BIP 21. BIP 21, which is April

490
00:42:37,222 --> 00:42:43,842
Fools by SIPA, but it's also true that it was a fork to some degree to fix the way that

491
00:42:43,842 --> 00:42:49,622
halving was done, which was unpredictable. BIP 21 changed the supply schedule. So we did

492
00:42:49,622 --> 00:42:54,822
change supply schedule. But in a way that was framed as a joke, because it is a joke,

493
00:42:54,822 --> 00:43:01,862
it's unarbitrary to just go to the obvious meaning of the software and not the text of the software,

494
00:43:01,862 --> 00:43:08,422
which is actually, it's like with the inflation bug. When we fixed the inflation bug,

495
00:43:08,902 --> 00:43:14,902
we changed the rule of the schedule. So we did it. There was in the code, there was a rule

496
00:43:14,902 --> 00:43:15,982
And we changed it.

497
00:43:15,982 --> 00:43:29,253
I not scared of the precedent because we changed it in an obvious way which is following the rule that we obviously intended as opposed to the rule that emerged from the complexity of the code Now divisibility I not sure that we could frame

498
00:43:29,253 --> 00:43:36,693
it as Satoshi really intended the cutoff to go to zero because that's cool. I mean, it's just

499
00:43:36,693 --> 00:43:43,033
simpler because doing integer is simpler. Doing fractions, in order to do infinite divisibility,

500
00:43:43,033 --> 00:43:46,033
You need a fraction point, basically, when you have...

501
00:43:46,733 --> 00:43:52,593
It would be the amount of Satoshi in the output would have to be two integers instead of one,

502
00:43:52,833 --> 00:43:54,493
which is more complex.

503
00:43:54,813 --> 00:43:59,053
To some degree, it's bad, but it's not just as arbitrary.

504
00:43:59,453 --> 00:44:02,813
But now I just want to scare people and to create conspiracy theory,

505
00:44:02,873 --> 00:44:06,773
because the reality is that I don't think that proposal will ever pass,

506
00:44:07,153 --> 00:44:10,673
because it's stupid, because there is no problem to fix in the first place.

507
00:44:10,673 --> 00:44:12,653
I agree with you, it's total FUD.

508
00:44:13,033 --> 00:44:21,193
There is no block subsidy issue and fees going up towards subsidy is good for censorship

509
00:44:21,193 --> 00:44:26,153
resistance because there is block sniping, but there is also empty blocks attack.

510
00:44:26,653 --> 00:44:30,893
And fees counteract the empty blocks, while subsidy does not.

511
00:44:31,293 --> 00:44:34,133
So subsidy going down is actually good.

512
00:44:34,693 --> 00:44:38,133
Unfortunately, it's not happening because the price goes up so much that the subsidy

513
00:44:38,133 --> 00:44:39,393
is always going up for now.

514
00:44:39,773 --> 00:44:42,713
But eventually, it will go down and I'm happy that it will.

515
00:44:43,033 --> 00:45:10,053
Okay, how about this proposal? Right now, you start a movement where there's a fund with one Satoshi in it on the Lightning Network. And this one Satoshi, that will be forever available as these fractions going into the future and would be given to miners as a subsidy past 2140. Because it's only the last set that is the issue.

516
00:45:10,053 --> 00:45:11,133
It can be done.

517
00:45:11,233 --> 00:45:13,333
Actually, it can be done without changing the consensus.

518
00:45:13,833 --> 00:45:18,093
There could be done with the probabilistic lottery on lightning closing.

519
00:45:18,313 --> 00:45:19,253
So it can be done.

520
00:45:19,673 --> 00:45:26,113
The last Satoshi could be frozen in a contract that will always only release not the Satoshi

521
00:45:26,113 --> 00:45:28,833
itself, but only lightning percentages of it.

522
00:45:29,013 --> 00:45:29,333
Yeah, yeah.

523
00:45:29,373 --> 00:45:29,513
Yeah.

524
00:45:29,693 --> 00:45:30,113
Exactly.

525
00:45:31,353 --> 00:45:32,193
Fascinating stuff.

526
00:45:32,273 --> 00:45:34,733
You should talk to Michael Dunbarth about that, I think.

527
00:45:35,073 --> 00:45:36,493
It will trigger his brain.

528
00:45:38,153 --> 00:45:38,473
Yeah.

529
00:45:38,473 --> 00:45:38,713
Yeah.

530
00:45:40,053 --> 00:45:44,693
Good. I think we're on the same page about most things here.

531
00:45:45,413 --> 00:45:48,273
So, okay, one final question about this.

532
00:45:49,593 --> 00:45:55,673
If miners now have more power than we believed, or a lot of us believed,

533
00:45:57,133 --> 00:46:03,893
is Bitcoin dependent on miners acting in their own self-interest

534
00:46:03,893 --> 00:46:06,693
and not shooting themselves in the foot?

535
00:46:06,693 --> 00:46:13,693
Or is it more robust than that with the layer of plebs actually having more influence?

536
00:46:13,693 --> 00:46:27,013
I struggle to wrap my head around where the power actually lies here and how robust these incentive structures and game theoretical things really are.

537
00:46:27,993 --> 00:46:36,153
Because I've ended up viewing Bitcoin as the most robust thing ever and the most fragile thing ever simultaneously.

538
00:46:36,693 --> 00:46:45,833
So are we dependent on the miners that we have to take for granted that they will, or do they have the power?

539
00:46:45,953 --> 00:46:47,253
I guess this is the question.

540
00:46:47,373 --> 00:46:59,073
Do they have the power to at one point, if the cultural slip is so large so that all of a sudden you get all the plebs to stop caring about the 21 million limit,

541
00:46:59,073 --> 00:47:03,473
to stop caring about the 10 minute intervals and 1016 blocks and whatnot,

542
00:47:03,473 --> 00:47:08,753
and thereby they can actually change the rules and give themselves more money than we thought.

543
00:47:08,873 --> 00:47:10,693
Is there ever such a scenario?

544
00:47:10,953 --> 00:47:14,173
Is there a slippery slope or is a slippery slope just FUD?

545
00:47:14,933 --> 00:47:17,193
So let me separate the answer.

546
00:47:17,633 --> 00:47:23,093
The first part of the answer is that since 2014, I became a Vosculian and I didn't change my name.

547
00:47:23,213 --> 00:47:25,613
I disagree with Eric in many things, but not in this.

548
00:47:25,613 --> 00:47:30,173
I think the state eventually will find the best way to attack Bitcoin,

549
00:47:30,173 --> 00:47:35,833
to take over a majority of ASHRAE and just mine the equivalent of empty blocks.

550
00:47:36,453 --> 00:47:41,273
And they could do partial things like OFAC transaction censorship or something.

551
00:47:41,493 --> 00:47:43,013
They could start with partial things.

552
00:47:43,513 --> 00:47:48,673
But the basic thing is we will not be able to settle black market transaction on chain

553
00:47:48,673 --> 00:47:51,753
because the government will just take over the majority of ASHRAE.

554
00:47:51,753 --> 00:47:56,533
I'll always assume this is not only a possibility, but this will eventually,

555
00:47:56,533 --> 00:48:00,753
maybe not in my lifetime, but it will be a battlefield.

556
00:48:01,433 --> 00:48:07,433
And I already made peace with the fact that miners could prevent on-chain transactions

557
00:48:07,433 --> 00:48:09,733
from settling for a very, very long time.

558
00:48:10,053 --> 00:48:14,813
And that will be similar to some degree to what Luke thinks is happening to Bitcoin since

559
00:48:14,813 --> 00:48:15,593
the 8th of August.

560
00:48:15,733 --> 00:48:19,253
I don't think it's the case now, but I think we may see that eventually.

561
00:48:19,253 --> 00:48:24,873
I think that the response of Bitcoin as a system, as a complex system, not just as a

562
00:48:24,873 --> 00:48:30,053
as a time chain will be by moving, will not be proof of word change.

563
00:48:30,153 --> 00:48:32,293
I think that's a game theoretical disaster.

564
00:48:32,293 --> 00:48:38,853
I think it will be into moving most of the economy off chain in a way that is still functional

565
00:48:38,853 --> 00:48:42,853
for very, very long period of time without settlement.

566
00:48:43,453 --> 00:48:50,173
And by being off chain most of the time, you can build up a fee pressure that can counteract

567
00:48:50,173 --> 00:48:52,413
the pressure of the censorship by the government.

568
00:48:52,413 --> 00:49:01,253
So the government prints money to pay the miners to censor or to pay the soldier to point the gun to the children of the miners to censor.

569
00:49:01,713 --> 00:49:09,773
And the black market is not printing, is creating wealth out of free exchange in a way that has to counteract that.

570
00:49:10,213 --> 00:49:18,433
Now, when I say that people recently, people, especially in the BAP 110 side, are mocking me like, yeah, like, doesn't seem like we are so strong.

571
00:49:18,553 --> 00:49:19,133
Yeah, I know.

572
00:49:19,493 --> 00:49:20,793
This is a bad situation.

573
00:49:20,793 --> 00:49:34,833
I'm happy that self-interest, as long as the governments will not step in explicitly with exogenous incentives, self-interest will probably keep this scenario from happening for a very long time until it happens.

574
00:49:35,133 --> 00:49:43,633
When it happens, we have to have a second layer, which is very, very, very strong and allows us to non-disrupt the economy, even if we have one.

575
00:49:43,633 --> 00:49:55,133
So the Bitcoin that can resist to this attack is a Bitcoin that could have resisted to the 8th of August in Luke's term without losing economic activity.

576
00:49:55,493 --> 00:50:00,233
Now, that was not the case because there was no lighting channel in the BAP 110 chain.

577
00:50:00,453 --> 00:50:01,733
Most people had to close it.

578
00:50:02,033 --> 00:50:03,933
So there was no second layer basically active.

579
00:50:04,053 --> 00:50:04,833
So it was a disaster.

580
00:50:04,953 --> 00:50:06,053
People could not trade.

581
00:50:06,053 --> 00:50:15,193
But if you can trade with the second layers, that's why I also think that I don't care for use case in terms of NFT or whatever.

582
00:50:15,593 --> 00:50:22,333
I do care for increasing of the possibility to aggregate fees off chain because I don't think it's just a matter of paying your coffee.

583
00:50:22,673 --> 00:50:28,333
It will also be a matter of aggregating fees to resist miner censorship at one point.

584
00:50:28,813 --> 00:50:30,593
Now, miners have this power.

585
00:50:30,993 --> 00:50:32,013
Yes, sadly, yes.

586
00:50:32,433 --> 00:50:34,873
Do they have these incentives?

587
00:50:35,813 --> 00:50:39,433
Endogenously, not, because they are just shooting themselves in the foot.

588
00:50:39,773 --> 00:50:42,213
They want to sell the reward to a functioning network.

589
00:50:42,693 --> 00:50:47,073
Exogenously, they will, because the government will come and will pay them.

590
00:50:47,193 --> 00:50:48,493
Now, is this a certainty?

591
00:50:49,153 --> 00:50:49,793
Maybe not.

592
00:50:50,093 --> 00:50:54,473
We could have a scenario in which most of the world governments collapse before they attempt

593
00:50:54,473 --> 00:50:56,053
successfully this kind of attack.

594
00:50:56,053 --> 00:50:57,673
But I think we should be prepared.

595
00:50:57,673 --> 00:51:19,253
I think that I became a small blocker, not because just of efficiency or whatever, but because I think that on-chain is eventually not doomed because we still need it to settle, but is eventually the most fragile part of Bitcoin from the point of view of scalability, censorship resistance, spam resistance, and privacy.

596
00:51:19,673 --> 00:51:22,373
All the important things on chain are bad.

597
00:51:22,773 --> 00:51:28,413
We have just one very good thing on chain, which is the fact that you can receive offline easily.

598
00:51:28,593 --> 00:51:30,613
That's something which is very hard to do off chain.

599
00:51:30,613 --> 00:51:34,793
But we have to do it because this attack, I think, will just come.

600
00:51:35,273 --> 00:51:40,433
So in this case, I was not surprised because I was expecting miners.

601
00:51:40,793 --> 00:51:44,393
I don't think the government had to pay the miners to ignore BIP 110.

602
00:51:44,393 --> 00:51:50,373
I think that nobody gave a fuck except for a very small circle of maybe 200 people, mostly

603
00:51:50,373 --> 00:51:51,373
on Twitter.

604
00:51:51,373 --> 00:51:56,713
So I have a very different view of what actually happened in terms of, so if I went to a meetup

605
00:51:56,713 --> 00:52:13,044
in the last year a Bitcoin meetup a BitDev with plebs talking about Bitcoin and guns and stake and the fact that nobody was considering BIP 110 seriously in any of the physical meetings I had in the last year

606
00:52:13,044 --> 00:52:17,884
The only moment I, there was, so funnily enough, and since we want to talk about Ocean,

607
00:52:18,284 --> 00:52:24,344
the only moment of my week where BIP 110 was an in-person argument, like with actual people,

608
00:52:24,344 --> 00:52:29,504
not just Twitter people, was during ocean board meetings,

609
00:52:29,944 --> 00:52:35,224
where I was feeling like taking crazy pills because people were like,

610
00:52:35,564 --> 00:52:37,824
I'm discussing with Mara about BAP.

611
00:52:37,924 --> 00:52:40,044
What are you even talking about?

612
00:52:40,344 --> 00:52:43,824
Nobody, Mara, maybe they are humoring you in a funny way,

613
00:52:44,144 --> 00:52:45,724
but nobody's even considering this.

614
00:52:46,164 --> 00:52:49,864
So, yeah, I diverge from your question a little bit.

615
00:52:49,864 --> 00:52:57,104
okay and here here i'd say it is don't you think that you are in your own bubble though

616
00:52:57,104 --> 00:53:03,204
i've been to lugano i know the people you hang out with and there's like predominantly devs like

617
00:53:03,204 --> 00:53:07,704
there's a lot of devs and there's a lot of people that want to build stuff on bitcoin and want to

618
00:53:07,704 --> 00:53:13,184
build things so don't you think that there's it's not entirely true in lugano there are like three

619
00:53:13,184 --> 00:53:17,684
or four so the big devil lugano was great but mostly with people coming from outside in lugano

620
00:53:17,684 --> 00:53:22,544
I'm non-dev. Zbam is non-dev. My wife is non-dev.

621
00:53:22,964 --> 00:53:29,984
Yeah, but I mean, in the circles that start companies and stuff around Bitcoin

622
00:53:29,984 --> 00:53:36,324
rather than your shotgun shooting pickup truck owning pleb.

623
00:53:36,324 --> 00:53:44,264
Because in my circles, I have a lot of pleb friends that were pro the software

624
00:53:44,264 --> 00:53:48,944
because they simply thought that it aligned with the ethos of the entire thing.

625
00:53:49,004 --> 00:53:51,164
For example, giving it to the man is a big thing.

626
00:53:51,744 --> 00:53:58,924
In Prague, I remember meeting Fractal and Crypt, which was pro.

627
00:53:59,264 --> 00:54:00,424
We had a friend discussion.

628
00:54:01,124 --> 00:54:03,344
And then there was you and there was Daniel Prince.

629
00:54:04,024 --> 00:54:04,964
Three people I knew.

630
00:54:05,384 --> 00:54:09,044
Well, of course, I think, I don't know if mechanical look was there, but I don't think so.

631
00:54:09,344 --> 00:54:11,644
So three people I knew were in favor of it.

632
00:54:11,644 --> 00:54:20,384
And then I met the ocean management, Mark, and he was trying to survive the internal struggle.

633
00:54:20,524 --> 00:54:23,424
So he was mostly in favor if there is consensus.

634
00:54:23,604 --> 00:54:27,744
So he had a mild position, while most of the other people were not.

635
00:54:27,964 --> 00:54:31,464
So it was in Prague that I knew three people.

636
00:54:31,564 --> 00:54:34,284
Of course, many people I didn't know around.

637
00:54:34,864 --> 00:54:37,124
But for me, it was impressing the imbalance.

638
00:54:37,564 --> 00:54:41,124
I can have a bubble, but I don't think this was the case.

639
00:54:41,124 --> 00:54:51,224
I don't think it was the case. I think it was clearly another option in which you guys had the bubble. I have many other things probably, but not really this one.

640
00:54:51,764 --> 00:55:10,124
Yeah, I think that the rebuttal to that from the Bit.10 side would be to say that conferences are inherently bad incentive-wise because you go to them not only for promoting Bitcoin to people, but to promote whatever you like to sell.

641
00:55:10,124 --> 00:55:13,124
I mean, I'm guilty selling boxes.

642
00:55:13,644 --> 00:55:16,864
But you see that there is a lot of goalposts moving.

643
00:55:17,284 --> 00:55:25,284
So, yeah, I think that ubiquitously in any kind of metric, the support for this proposal was pretty low.

644
00:55:25,924 --> 00:55:38,444
And of course, in some metric, it was higher, including Twitter activism and including, I guess, in correlation with some, for example,

645
00:55:38,444 --> 00:55:40,824
Austrian economic circle,

646
00:55:41,144 --> 00:55:42,884
we have three people discussing that,

647
00:55:43,144 --> 00:55:43,464
seriously,

648
00:55:43,964 --> 00:55:45,904
which is basically Saifedean,

649
00:55:46,164 --> 00:55:48,064
you, Knut, well, Rahim,

650
00:55:48,604 --> 00:55:49,824
and Kinsella.

651
00:55:50,024 --> 00:55:51,304
It's probably five Bitcoiners

652
00:55:51,304 --> 00:55:52,464
discussing Austrian economics.

653
00:55:53,004 --> 00:55:55,864
You and Konsa were BAP.

654
00:55:56,344 --> 00:55:57,664
So two out of five

655
00:55:57,664 --> 00:55:59,184
in one very specific circle.

656
00:56:00,104 --> 00:56:02,064
Well, you have this Hubertus the Austrian,

657
00:56:02,224 --> 00:56:03,264
but I think...

658
00:56:03,264 --> 00:56:03,964
Oh, yeah, six.

659
00:56:04,144 --> 00:56:05,764
I disagree with him about it.

660
00:56:05,764 --> 00:56:11,084
I think he's got a pretty weird view of what Austrian economics is, to be honest.

661
00:56:11,304 --> 00:56:14,324
I see him tweet a lot of strange stuff.

662
00:56:14,324 --> 00:56:28,204
So I think, for instance, the thing that I totally agree with Konza about is about the quality of money and that use cases leak value from a medium of exchange over space and time, and they do not add value.

663
00:56:28,704 --> 00:56:32,364
And here I know that Hubertus is completely on the other side.

664
00:56:32,444 --> 00:56:34,784
He thinks that use cases obviously add value.

665
00:56:34,784 --> 00:56:43,484
And to me, that's a tell that he doesn't really understand the Austrian thought tradition around money.

666
00:56:43,984 --> 00:56:45,704
So, yeah, I think you agree.

667
00:56:45,924 --> 00:56:52,144
I think there maybe the disagreement could be that sometimes I had with you a discussion and also with Konse about inheritance.

668
00:56:52,144 --> 00:57:07,024
So I think that if the use case is inherently very money-like, it's like how to use your money better as money, then we are going to circulate a bit because, okay, it's a use case, but the use case is in full support of monetary.

669
00:57:07,024 --> 00:57:25,224
Yeah, but herein lies that this, I think, is the crux of the problem. And the thing that all Bitcoiners should think about all the time, especially developers, I'd say, is like, does this make Bitcoin better money? This was the title of my talk in Vienna.

670
00:57:25,224 --> 00:57:36,224
So if you think it does, because it provides you with better inheritance usage of money, for instance, medium exchange over time, then that's okay.

671
00:57:36,424 --> 00:57:45,064
But if it facilitates shitcoins on Bitcoins, including stablecoins, of course, which are shitcoins, then it's not a monetary thing.

672
00:57:45,224 --> 00:57:46,904
Like a stablecoin on Bitcoin.

673
00:57:47,444 --> 00:57:48,464
It is a monetary thing.

674
00:57:48,704 --> 00:57:50,564
Here I think, meh.

675
00:57:50,944 --> 00:57:53,824
No, I think it's a monetary, but in direct competition with Bitcoin.

676
00:57:54,184 --> 00:57:54,704
Exactly.

677
00:57:54,704 --> 00:57:57,024
Exactly. So it's by definition counterproductive.

678
00:57:57,024 --> 00:58:03,424
Exactly. It's counter the Bitcoin monetary function because it's a pure dilution and competition to Bitcoin.

679
00:58:04,444 --> 00:58:12,284
Yeah. So a stable coin on Bitcoin is not a good thing, in my opinion. Would you agree?

680
00:58:12,284 --> 00:58:19,164
I disagree in the sense that as long as the stable coin, so it depends what it means on Bitcoin.

681
00:58:19,164 --> 00:58:23,324
I think a stable coin is a temporary scam to the regulator.

682
00:58:23,904 --> 00:58:26,904
It's just fiat in a way that will scam the regulator a little bit.

683
00:58:27,024 --> 00:58:27,644
Okay, that's it.

684
00:58:28,084 --> 00:58:32,164
I think that if the stable coin has to choose between, on one side,

685
00:58:32,864 --> 00:58:37,064
creating incentives for another more direct competitor of Bitcoin,

686
00:58:37,264 --> 00:58:40,144
like Solana, Tron, Ethereum, etc.,

687
00:58:40,144 --> 00:58:44,804
moving ecosystem and money to these shitcoins on top of the fiat.

688
00:58:44,824 --> 00:58:45,924
So there is a fiat shitcoin.

689
00:58:46,264 --> 00:58:48,224
There is an investor scam shitcoin.

690
00:58:48,704 --> 00:58:55,544
If the fiat shitcoin is legitimizing the investor scam shitcoin like Tron, I think that's an even worse scenario.

691
00:58:55,964 --> 00:59:01,324
If it just is the fiat rail while competing with Bitcoin anyway, because they are competing anyway.

692
00:59:01,324 --> 00:59:10,304
So keeping fixed the fact that they are diluting Bitcoin, they already exist, but they at least incentivize the race and infrastructure of Bitcoin in a smart way.

693
00:59:10,444 --> 00:59:13,424
Like, for example, I'm a big proponent of doing that on RGB.

694
00:59:13,684 --> 00:59:16,344
In that case, I think it's beneficial to Bitcoin.

695
00:59:16,344 --> 00:59:21,104
The shitcoin itself is not, but it's not in my power deciding for it not to exist.

696
00:59:21,504 --> 00:59:27,404
If it has to exist, that increasing Bitcoin liquidity, anonymity, and stuff like that

697
00:59:27,404 --> 00:59:32,964
is better than increasing the legitimacy of another or yet another Bitcoin competitor.

698
00:59:33,324 --> 00:59:36,464
So it's a very conditioned kind of claim.

699
00:59:36,464 --> 00:59:47,804
yeah yeah the the my my forever thought vector mind would would uh the devil's advocate the other

700
00:59:47,804 --> 00:59:53,864
position in this way or or try to refute that argument by saying that if this potential

701
00:59:53,864 --> 01:00:00,084
stable coin on bitcoin or shit coin on bitcoin puts any arbitrary data somewhere in bitcoin

702
01:00:00,084 --> 01:00:03,124
that shouldn't be there and that isn't sat monetary,

703
01:00:03,824 --> 01:00:06,184
then it is bad for Bitcoin

704
01:00:06,184 --> 01:00:08,824
because it makes the initial block download

705
01:00:08,824 --> 01:00:10,824
more expensive by definition.

706
01:00:11,364 --> 01:00:14,624
And therefore, I'd prefer it if it was on Solana or Ethereum

707
01:00:14,624 --> 01:00:18,324
because this is all temporary and transitory.

708
01:00:18,984 --> 01:00:19,704
Agreed with that.

709
01:00:19,704 --> 01:00:22,444
But the node cost is forever.

710
01:00:22,744 --> 01:00:25,824
So the forever vectors, those are the ones that are,

711
01:00:26,024 --> 01:00:27,044
they should be sacred.

712
01:00:27,044 --> 01:00:33,224
And that's why I view the Satoshi as so sacred in comparison to everything else.

713
01:00:33,224 --> 01:00:34,224
But yeah.

714
01:00:34,224 --> 01:00:35,224
Yeah.

715
01:00:35,224 --> 01:00:36,224
Okay.

716
01:00:36,224 --> 01:00:39,064
Over to Ocean.

717
01:00:39,064 --> 01:00:56,234
You left Ocean and you came back to Ocean So let start with why you left I think BIP had something to do Let me start on how I joined because that consequential to why I left So when Luke

718
01:00:56,234 --> 01:01:03,594
suffered a catastrophic theft, we were very close, we were staying very close, and I was checking on

719
01:01:03,594 --> 01:01:10,074
him to understand how he could do and stuff like that. When he met Dorsey and he started Ocean,

720
01:01:10,074 --> 01:01:12,694
He contacted me and he wanted me on board.

721
01:01:12,694 --> 01:01:20,094
He wanted me to invest and he wanted me on the board of director to somehow protect him to some degree because he trusted me.

722
01:01:20,214 --> 01:01:26,794
So he wanted me to be there to guarantee the purity of operation against evil capitalists.

723
01:01:27,134 --> 01:01:28,554
And Jack Dorsey was on the same mindset.

724
01:01:28,714 --> 01:01:35,074
When we met in South Carolina in Greenville, Jack Dorsey was like, I want Luke to be Luke.

725
01:01:35,074 --> 01:01:42,674
I want Luke to be the protector angel of Bitcoin and the guardian angel of Bitcoin.

726
01:01:43,214 --> 01:01:55,714
And he created, Dorsey, Dorsey's lawyers, created a situation in which Luke had basically 51% of the same Bitcoin of the voting rights in the company.

727
01:01:56,154 --> 01:02:00,374
So there was debate, but he was calling all the shots.

728
01:02:00,994 --> 01:02:07,934
Now, after I agreed, I invested my money and I became part of the board of directors.

729
01:02:08,534 --> 01:02:09,314
And it was cool.

730
01:02:09,654 --> 01:02:14,974
It was hard sometimes because working with Luke in a company setting is harder than doing

731
01:02:14,974 --> 01:02:16,654
that in a philosophical debate sense.

732
01:02:16,654 --> 01:02:23,654
So when I appreciate Luke being the way he is, if we discuss religion or things, when

733
01:02:23,654 --> 01:02:29,634
there was actually to implement lightning, payoff and ball 12 is something, but ball 12

734
01:02:29,634 --> 01:02:34,914
to look at something else and then I have to talk with Steve Lee because it was hard,

735
01:02:35,394 --> 01:02:36,294
but it was fine.

736
01:02:36,714 --> 01:02:37,934
And the mission was great.

737
01:02:38,074 --> 01:02:39,434
The idea was great in Datum.

738
01:02:39,874 --> 01:02:46,814
And Datum versus Strait on V2 was also a relationship that I would have managed differently, frankly,

739
01:02:47,114 --> 01:02:48,634
because we were going the same direction.

740
01:02:49,014 --> 01:02:52,034
No reason to create this, but it was okay.

741
01:02:52,394 --> 01:02:54,074
So I had a very good time in Ocean.

742
01:02:54,474 --> 01:02:57,134
But then the BIP 110 things happened.

743
01:02:57,134 --> 01:03:00,694
and the very night that Luke decided to do it,

744
01:03:00,734 --> 01:03:03,394
it was in call with me and Mechanic and John Attac

745
01:03:03,394 --> 01:03:04,314
and other people and I say,

746
01:03:04,574 --> 01:03:06,134
don't, I cannot support you there.

747
01:03:06,354 --> 01:03:07,514
I will fight against this.

748
01:03:07,694 --> 01:03:08,454
I'm against this.

749
01:03:08,674 --> 01:03:10,234
I'm not just not in favor.

750
01:03:10,654 --> 01:03:11,754
I will stand against.

751
01:03:12,314 --> 01:03:13,214
This happened.

752
01:03:13,794 --> 01:03:17,314
I stood against in any possible venue

753
01:03:17,314 --> 01:03:20,034
and then I realized that one possible venue

754
01:03:20,034 --> 01:03:21,674
was the board of director of Ocean

755
01:03:21,674 --> 01:03:24,194
and I was feeling bad in doing that

756
01:03:24,194 --> 01:03:26,654
because every time most of the people

757
01:03:26,654 --> 01:03:30,774
were just going along with him, especially, and this is funny for the conspiracy theory,

758
01:03:31,034 --> 01:03:35,434
especially, I cannot say too much because in theory, the content of a board meeting is secret,

759
01:03:35,554 --> 01:03:42,634
but I have, I can, okay, I will deny this in front of a judge, but Tether people were among the

760
01:03:42,634 --> 01:03:48,054
close, the most favorable people to look in that case, and I was against, I was like, no, no, no.

761
01:03:48,414 --> 01:03:52,514
And Tether people, which I brought in because I wanted their ash rate on ocean,

762
01:03:52,514 --> 01:03:56,574
so I created the initial link to Tether mining, they were kind of

763
01:03:56,654 --> 01:03:59,394
my friend Gibb was kind of, yeah, possibilist.

764
01:03:59,674 --> 01:04:00,974
And I was, no, no, no, against.

765
01:04:01,294 --> 01:04:06,154
After a while, close to the final date, the situation became very tense.

766
01:04:06,154 --> 01:04:13,354
I cannot give you details, but Luke started to use his 51% attack

767
01:04:13,354 --> 01:04:17,454
that the company allowed legally in a very aggressive way.

768
01:04:17,814 --> 01:04:22,994
His goal was to move the entire pool without any choice to BIP 110 only

769
01:04:22,994 --> 01:04:24,934
because the rest was pedo chain

770
01:04:24,934 --> 01:04:27,014
and the company cannot support pedo chain.

771
01:04:27,574 --> 01:04:30,654
And every move, like just give the miners a choice.

772
01:04:30,814 --> 01:04:33,574
That was, our point was to give miners a choice.

773
01:04:33,574 --> 01:04:36,934
And every move was sabotage in a subtle way.

774
01:04:37,174 --> 01:04:38,654
Like, yeah, let's give miner a choice.

775
01:04:38,974 --> 01:04:40,014
But then when it goes out,

776
01:04:40,094 --> 01:04:43,554
we will understand that the default is going to be a P110

777
01:04:43,554 --> 01:04:46,034
and you have to actively change then.

778
01:04:46,274 --> 01:04:49,134
So there was a lot of tricks, I would say.

779
01:04:49,714 --> 01:04:52,834
So in a way, I felt that I was fighting against Luka

780
01:04:52,834 --> 01:04:55,894
I wanted to fight this battle, especially towards the end.

781
01:04:56,094 --> 01:05:02,374
I wanted to really fight this battle to save people from financials or reputational suicide

782
01:05:02,374 --> 01:05:07,534
or even just intellectual feeling stupid sensation, which is bad.

783
01:05:07,974 --> 01:05:12,854
And so since I wanted to fight this, I understood that fighting it from the board

784
01:05:12,854 --> 01:05:19,734
where Luca pointed me to was unfair because he asked me there to protect him, to help him.

785
01:05:19,734 --> 01:05:25,854
Now, even if I think I was right and he was wrong, and I still think that big time, I was not helping him.

786
01:05:26,054 --> 01:05:29,754
I was fighting against him in the position that he appointed me to.

787
01:05:30,094 --> 01:05:37,614
So I quit the board because I said, look, if you think I should quit because I'm not serving you anymore, tell me.

788
01:05:37,994 --> 01:05:39,654
And he told me, no, no, no.

789
01:05:39,914 --> 01:05:42,674
Then one day he told me, maybe yes, just go away.

790
01:05:43,154 --> 01:05:44,994
And so I resigned immediately.

791
01:05:45,654 --> 01:05:48,594
I resigned the same minute that Luke told me,

792
01:05:49,014 --> 01:05:50,174
I cannot use you anymore.

793
01:05:50,394 --> 01:05:52,834
And then I told him, look, now I'm a shareholder.

794
01:05:53,154 --> 01:05:53,994
This is my money.

795
01:05:54,914 --> 01:05:58,854
The position in the board was your request to you as a friend.

796
01:05:59,294 --> 01:06:02,254
My position as an investor is my freaking money.

797
01:06:02,634 --> 01:06:05,614
I will try to save the money invested in this company.

798
01:06:05,614 --> 01:06:10,774
I don't want you to destroy 16 million of other people's money.

799
01:06:11,074 --> 01:06:12,294
I want to save this company.

800
01:06:12,294 --> 01:06:15,034
So as a shareholder, I will fight back.

801
01:06:15,394 --> 01:06:20,674
So I joined an internal thing that I cannot probably disclose to my details about,

802
01:06:20,714 --> 01:06:28,814
about fighting back within the very thin layer of position the investors had.

803
01:06:29,174 --> 01:06:31,854
All the investors were basically against the madness,

804
01:06:32,234 --> 01:06:35,934
but the structure of the company was putting them in a very difficult position.

805
01:06:35,934 --> 01:06:41,934
So with lawyers and letters and stuff, we reached out the final agreement,

806
01:06:41,934 --> 01:06:45,674
which is Luke will go away, he will build his pool on his coin,

807
01:06:46,134 --> 01:06:51,094
and he will take a percentage, I cannot disclose, of the assets of the company,

808
01:06:51,354 --> 01:06:56,734
and all the investors will receive Luke's shares, pro quota, including me,

809
01:06:56,914 --> 01:07:01,474
and we will keep building the company with everybody else, basically, but Luke and mechanic.

810
01:07:01,914 --> 01:07:05,254
So after this happened, I was just a shareholder,

811
01:07:05,814 --> 01:07:09,074
and then people on Twitter started saying, get Giacomo back.

812
01:07:09,074 --> 01:07:13,274
I saw the new board people said, want to come back?

813
01:07:13,454 --> 01:07:15,894
And I said, okay, now I don't have any ethical reason not to.

814
01:07:16,014 --> 01:07:17,194
I want to save this company.

815
01:07:17,674 --> 01:07:21,294
I didn't invest so much money, but a little bit.

816
01:07:21,874 --> 01:07:29,154
And other people I know invested, which are also plebs and not big corporations, invested lots of money.

817
01:07:29,154 --> 01:07:44,334
And so I said, yes, I want to try to relaunch and save the original Luke vision without the recent complete disagreement. So that's why I joined when I quit and I rejoined last week, basically.

818
01:07:44,334 --> 01:07:54,334
all right yeah after after luke and mechanic left there were a couple of news coming up

819
01:07:54,334 --> 01:08:04,894
very rapidly from ocean um and i i think like i'm gonna play devil's advocate here in in why

820
01:08:04,894 --> 01:08:10,634
ocean has received a lot of critique afterwards and the first thing is uh yeah first of all uh

821
01:08:10,634 --> 01:08:14,254
Bob Burnett was selected as CEO, right?

822
01:08:14,794 --> 01:08:15,334
No, president.

823
01:08:15,774 --> 01:08:16,114
Chairman.

824
01:08:16,394 --> 01:08:16,514
President.

825
01:08:17,094 --> 01:08:18,274
Chairman of the board.

826
01:08:18,454 --> 01:08:18,634
Yes.

827
01:08:19,034 --> 01:08:22,914
Which I think is a very good thing.

828
01:08:23,054 --> 01:08:33,474
I'm interviewing Bob here next week, and I'm eager to hear his takes on all of this because I think he has a very sound view of what Bitcoin mining is and what Bitcoin mining ought to be.

829
01:08:33,474 --> 01:08:36,514
So I'm eager to hear what he has to say about it.

830
01:08:36,514 --> 01:08:52,274
However, conspiracy theorists would say that this was Bob's game all along and that he was aiming for this and that he undercut Luke and stuff. And I think that's probably not true. Would you comment on that in some way?

831
01:08:52,274 --> 01:08:59,734
I understand it's hard to tell just trust me bro is not true but I it's the only thing I can do

832
01:08:59,734 --> 01:09:08,614
bro trust me bro is not true the man so everybody everybody except for me maybe I was the nasty one

833
01:09:08,614 --> 01:09:14,594
I was the one being nasty to Luke everybody else tried to keep everything together up to the very

834
01:09:14,594 --> 01:09:20,854
last minute until they witnessed the complete collapse of any governance structure because of

835
01:09:20,854 --> 01:09:26,114
loops action. So I cannot enter specifics, but Bob tried to put it together. Bob

836
01:09:26,165 --> 01:09:32,045
opened every single meeting like, I agree with your intention, Luke, with the fork.

837
01:09:32,265 --> 01:09:34,805
It's just that we cannot change proof of work.

838
01:09:34,905 --> 01:09:36,065
So it was super reasonable.

839
01:09:36,745 --> 01:09:44,865
If it was his plan, then he's a 3D chess genius that basically caused Luke,

840
01:09:44,865 --> 01:09:51,365
but agreed with Luke so much, the Luke felt emboldened to fork off, but it's not true.

841
01:09:51,365 --> 01:09:57,525
Bob tried to be of help and Bob, like me, has a very economic...

842
01:09:57,525 --> 01:10:00,125
So from a personal point of view, we could just say,

843
01:10:00,325 --> 01:10:04,005
okay, we were friends, now we disagree, let's close this down.

844
01:10:04,445 --> 01:10:06,425
But then there is a financial angle, which is,

845
01:10:06,845 --> 01:10:09,545
I got my money and other people's money into this.

846
01:10:09,865 --> 01:10:11,725
People put real money in a company.

847
01:10:12,085 --> 01:10:15,825
They not expect this to be a circle of friends that can just disagree.

848
01:10:15,945 --> 01:10:17,505
I'm not your friend anymore.

849
01:10:17,945 --> 01:10:20,245
This is an investment with money and responsibility.

850
01:10:20,245 --> 01:10:21,005
So Bob...

851
01:10:21,365 --> 01:10:27,125
stepped up when the crisis was total and not before and didn't try to accelerate.

852
01:10:27,505 --> 01:10:34,205
I've seen Bob trying to reduce the animosity and the crisis and give Luke any single possibility

853
01:10:34,205 --> 01:10:39,485
that he had. And then since he was very reasonable and also very connected to the BIP movement,

854
01:10:39,485 --> 01:10:45,205
he signaled in the very first block in BIP 110. Unlike me, which I was against,

855
01:10:45,485 --> 01:10:50,085
Bob was in favor, but not without consensus. So that's the difference between me and Bob.

856
01:10:50,085 --> 01:10:54,305
Bob was considered a very good figure for also his experience.

857
01:10:54,745 --> 01:10:59,385
When you will interview him, he will probably explain you the plot, but he will not give

858
01:10:59,385 --> 01:11:04,345
up rumors about what happened, which I'm failing to not do because I'm not a corporate guy.

859
01:11:04,825 --> 01:11:06,185
I am talkative.

860
01:11:06,605 --> 01:11:08,125
I like to spill the bin.

861
01:11:09,005 --> 01:11:12,185
Yeah, I mean, that's sort of the position I had.

862
01:11:12,325 --> 01:11:14,905
I am pro, but not without consensus.

863
01:11:14,905 --> 01:11:20,745
like if if the community says that no this is not bitcoin this other thing is bitcoin like

864
01:11:20,745 --> 01:11:27,405
then bp 110 it's it's it's a thing i wanted but it didn't happen and yeah life was like you

865
01:11:27,405 --> 01:11:35,045
and i like me because it was not a thing i want no yeah yeah uh so uh the next news though is is

866
01:11:35,045 --> 01:11:41,885
more so okay final word on bob uh i think swanholz racer can be applied here that never

867
01:11:41,885 --> 01:11:45,665
attribute to 5D chess that which can be explained by retardation.

868
01:11:46,825 --> 01:11:48,085
Absolutely, yes.

869
01:11:48,305 --> 01:11:54,725
So regardless of who's the real retard, we have the next news coming out from the ocean

870
01:11:54,725 --> 01:12:01,745
camp is more of a red flag for a lot of people, because now you have the board of directors

871
01:12:01,745 --> 01:12:05,305
has elected Rafa Zaguri as a director.

872
01:12:05,885 --> 01:12:11,125
And this is a guy that is the very definition of a suit coiner, I'd say.

873
01:12:11,125 --> 01:12:21,925
He is the CEO of 21 Capital, the firm that Jack Dorsey left because it didn't align with his Bitcoiner values.

874
01:12:23,105 --> 01:12:28,565
And he's been with, you know, Goldman Sachs, Merrill Lynch, Deutsche Bank, you name it.

875
01:12:28,845 --> 01:12:30,645
This is a suit coiner.

876
01:12:31,005 --> 01:12:33,665
And why did that happen?

877
01:12:33,745 --> 01:12:37,825
And how is that not a sign of Ocean being captured by the suits?

878
01:12:37,825 --> 01:12:46,965
So the way it happened, again, if anything I'm saying is covered from secrecy of company, I will just deny in front of a jury.

879
01:12:47,825 --> 01:12:49,805
But what did happen is like this.

880
01:12:50,205 --> 01:12:53,405
I brought the connection to Tether for ASHRAE only.

881
01:12:54,285 --> 01:12:57,445
At the beginning, Tether was very, Ocean was very well funded.

882
01:12:58,025 --> 01:12:59,685
There was a lot of runaway.

883
01:13:00,005 --> 01:13:01,025
So we didn't need money.

884
01:13:01,225 --> 01:13:02,125
We needed ASHRAE.

885
01:13:02,125 --> 01:13:08,805
So Tether was mining and Hafa and Gib were the two people in charge of the mining operation,

886
01:13:09,025 --> 01:13:12,505
which, by the way, goes back to a controversy with Zouane.

887
01:13:12,645 --> 01:13:14,045
We'll discuss that a little bit.

888
01:13:14,445 --> 01:13:25,091
But Hafa is pronounced Hafa I don know why Hafa okay Yes E and GIF were the Tether expression of the Tether rate mining on Ocean

889
01:13:25,171 --> 01:13:27,771
which was a very important part of the success of the pool.

890
01:13:28,231 --> 01:13:31,271
So the initial connection was on my end.

891
01:13:31,271 --> 01:13:34,791
I went to Arduino asking him, can you support Ocean with Ash rate?

892
01:13:35,191 --> 01:13:40,131
So these guys were often invited to the board as observers without voting rights,

893
01:13:40,131 --> 01:13:44,971
like it happened with other mining pools, like it happened with Mechanic occasionally,

894
01:13:45,311 --> 01:13:48,491
because they were representing an important part of Ash rate.

895
01:13:48,991 --> 01:13:55,311
Now, there was a moment, even before the split, in which the money of the company was starting

896
01:13:55,311 --> 01:13:57,571
to run out because it was not profitable.

897
01:13:58,111 --> 01:13:58,831
There is revenue.

898
01:13:59,291 --> 01:14:01,451
It's a good model, but there was a lot of cost.

899
01:14:02,111 --> 01:14:07,331
And the revenue was not increasing as it was supposed to, especially, I think, my opinion

900
01:14:07,331 --> 01:14:08,691
is that because of the controversy.

901
01:14:08,691 --> 01:14:26,331
So many deals that were very carefully crafted disappeared because miners were like, I could put my ash right there, but isn't your pool going to disappear into a fork in one month? Are we really mining on you if you're going to change consensus and just be forked off?

902
01:14:26,331 --> 01:14:32,511
So there was a lot of damage, in my opinion, made by the controversy of B.110.

903
01:14:32,991 --> 01:14:41,051
So the role of Hafa and Giv as one of the most important miners was more active towards the end of the tragedy.

904
01:14:41,591 --> 01:14:46,371
In no way I have witnessed any hostile takeover dynamic.

905
01:14:46,811 --> 01:14:49,191
Actually, I don't know if I can tell this, but whatever.

906
01:14:49,451 --> 01:14:51,751
You should have the suit corner on the show.

907
01:14:51,751 --> 01:15:01,331
But Hafa was also like Bob, starting every sentence with, while I agree with BAP 110 myself.

908
01:15:02,111 --> 01:15:05,871
And I was, stop, I'm the one disagreeing.

909
01:15:06,191 --> 01:15:09,171
So Hafa was also not against the proposal itself.

910
01:15:09,531 --> 01:15:11,931
But it was like, guys, reality check.

911
01:15:12,291 --> 01:15:13,431
This is just not happening.

912
01:15:13,751 --> 01:15:14,531
Nobody's in favor.

913
01:15:14,531 --> 01:15:28,311
So after I was out of the board, there was the 8th of August, the tragedy, the fun because it was an ocean block to basically give the kiss of the death to the fork chain.

914
01:15:28,411 --> 01:15:30,491
So it was a lot of fun, but also a lot of tension.

915
01:15:30,911 --> 01:15:35,571
I've been told that there has been a lot of bad stuff happening in the company while I was not there anymore.

916
01:15:35,671 --> 01:15:40,431
Like people trying to sue each other and send the cops and stuff like that.

917
01:15:40,431 --> 01:15:58,411
So after all that, Luke was out, mechanic was out, and now it was time to rebuild the company. So I've been contacted to rejoin, and half as well as part as an activist person within the board has been also contacted to join.

918
01:15:58,411 --> 01:16:13,031
Now, I may or may not be legally allowed to say that since now the company needs money because the asset has been split, there may have been a minority investment by Tether, but we don't know.

919
01:16:13,111 --> 01:16:16,671
We can only speculate about that because it would be illegal for me to say that.

920
01:16:17,431 --> 01:16:27,131
What I can say, either legally or legally, Tether is not the majority shareholder of Ocean Entity and doesn't plan to be.

921
01:16:27,131 --> 01:16:31,391
Now, the funny thing with Hafa is that I didn't know him very well before.

922
01:16:31,751 --> 01:16:34,271
I've known him within this controversy.

923
01:16:34,991 --> 01:16:37,591
And I can totally understand why from the outside,

924
01:16:38,051 --> 01:16:45,231
I like Bob, which has a very pristine image of a good boomer.

925
01:16:45,751 --> 01:16:50,031
Hafa seems like the serial takeover or style takeover guy

926
01:16:50,031 --> 01:16:53,711
because of the Zouan controversy within Tether Mining.

927
01:16:53,711 --> 01:16:57,711
And then there is Corey saying, oh, this guy came and stole my company.

928
01:16:57,711 --> 01:17:03,351
Then there is 21, where it's not that Jack is saying he stole my company.

929
01:17:03,351 --> 01:17:06,211
Jack said, I went away because I didn't want it anymore.

930
01:17:06,211 --> 01:17:20,258
And Tether asked which was part of 21 big part asked Hafa to take over Now Hafa in the board seems like a serial plan But again trust me bro that actually not what I seen

931
01:17:20,378 --> 01:17:25,498
So much so that not knowing Hafa before, I became way more skeptical.

932
01:17:25,578 --> 01:17:29,238
I will have to chat with Corey eventually, but I became way more skeptical

933
01:17:29,238 --> 01:17:35,738
about what happened in Swan and Electron as well, because I've read the public litigation

934
01:17:35,738 --> 01:17:41,458
and I know that my friends at Tether, they can be very Italian in some moments,

935
01:17:41,738 --> 01:17:45,818
like very aggressive when there is controversy.

936
01:17:45,818 --> 01:17:51,878
So I know them and I do believe part of the things you see in the paper is true,

937
01:17:52,238 --> 01:17:57,258
but I had my idea that Hafa was part of a very active takeover attempt.

938
01:17:57,498 --> 01:18:02,838
Now, I'm not an insider in Zouan, but I am an insider in Ocean.

939
01:18:03,378 --> 01:18:05,038
And in Ocean, I've seen the very opposite.

940
01:18:05,038 --> 01:18:11,658
this poor guy didn't want to become and he just wanted to negotiate he was tasked by the company

941
01:18:11,658 --> 01:18:18,178
to negotiate hash rate to ocean but in order to do that he needs a company to exist and not as

942
01:18:18,178 --> 01:18:25,338
which is not destroyed he tried to be a pacifier he tried to reduce contention he never escalated

943
01:18:25,338 --> 01:18:32,098
never in front of me before i've left what happened after i quit could have been probably

944
01:18:32,098 --> 01:18:33,538
more tension building up.

945
01:18:33,958 --> 01:18:39,618
So, yeah, again, it's healthy that guys are conspiratorial.

946
01:18:39,958 --> 01:18:43,838
It's healthy that they think I'm a pawn of the deep state or suit corners.

947
01:18:44,038 --> 01:18:44,638
It's cool.

948
01:18:44,798 --> 01:18:46,238
We should always assume so.

949
01:18:46,738 --> 01:18:56,058
If you ask me an honest tale, I have to give it, but I cannot prove most of what I'm saying.

950
01:18:56,058 --> 01:19:04,778
So it's healthy that some part of the community will still think that I'm just covering up for an evil tether takeover on a mining pool.

951
01:19:05,738 --> 01:19:10,258
So to which extent are you an insider in Tether then, if you're not an insider?

952
01:19:11,198 --> 01:19:15,778
In Ocean, I'm an insider legally because I'm a shareholder.

953
01:19:16,278 --> 01:19:19,078
I was a board of directors, I'm not, and now yes.

954
01:19:19,218 --> 01:19:22,878
So legally, I can access to a reserve document.

955
01:19:22,878 --> 01:19:31,958
And in Tether, I'm an insider in the sense that I'm just an Italian guy who loves to spread rumor.

956
01:19:32,078 --> 01:19:33,318
No, I just love to.

957
01:19:33,858 --> 01:19:37,818
I don't like lies because I think it's very complex to maintain them.

958
01:19:38,198 --> 01:19:43,898
So I like to talk a lot because I think that truth is a very powerful shelling point.

959
01:19:44,058 --> 01:19:51,798
So even if people tell me, sometimes it's wrong because I create problems by not being, I don't segregate information very well.

960
01:19:51,798 --> 01:19:56,798
If you ask me what happened in Plan B Network in Tether, I would just probably tell everybody.

961
01:19:57,178 --> 01:20:00,338
Because I think it's simpler if we're all on the same page.

962
01:20:00,718 --> 01:20:03,558
This is not a very business-competible attitude.

963
01:20:03,858 --> 01:20:09,498
Many people are basically scolding me for this attitude, but it's just easier.

964
01:20:09,658 --> 01:20:12,398
So in Tether, I don't have access to any.

965
01:20:12,558 --> 01:20:18,518
Tether is just a company which is funding 50% of the Plan B operations that I'm running.

966
01:20:19,058 --> 01:20:22,378
My role in Ocean is completely independent from Tether.

967
01:20:22,618 --> 01:20:25,758
I just, I was the one, I was in Ocean because of Luke.

968
01:20:26,178 --> 01:20:33,138
I brought Tether in as a miner, as a big friend with Arduino and stuff.

969
01:20:33,638 --> 01:20:39,678
While in plan B, I'm part of an operation which is getting 50% of the money from Tether.

970
01:20:39,678 --> 01:20:46,018
So being that the case, especially two years, three years ago when we funded this initiative,

971
01:20:46,018 --> 01:20:50,398
I had the weekly meeting with, uh, with Paolo, with people in Tether.

972
01:20:50,778 --> 01:20:56,778
Now I, now Paolo answered me one text message every six months, but now Paolo

973
01:20:56,778 --> 01:21:00,358
is talking with Trump and I can see that I'm not Trump yet.

974
01:21:00,658 --> 01:21:14,605
So I I will not blame him for that So now my my relationship with Tether is just just billing them a couple of times a year for education staff Lugano staff the Plumby Week the Cypher Tank stuff like that

975
01:21:14,805 --> 01:21:15,244
That's it.

976
01:21:15,244 --> 01:21:22,344
But I had rumors and in particular, I was an insider of the Tether dynamics within Ocean

977
01:21:22,344 --> 01:21:25,244
because I was in the board while this was happening.

978
01:21:28,824 --> 01:21:29,725
All right.

979
01:21:29,844 --> 01:21:30,105
Yeah.

980
01:21:30,105 --> 01:21:35,184
Yeah, I think that is there anything here?

981
01:21:35,725 --> 01:21:37,504
Yeah, let's get to that point.

982
01:21:37,564 --> 01:21:40,305
Is there anything here that we've missed in this whole discussion?

983
01:21:40,725 --> 01:21:53,404
Is there anything else you'd like to disclose or that you think that people have gotten this or that wrong or any kind of things that bother you on the Internet at the moment?

984
01:21:53,925 --> 01:21:54,584
Bother? No.

985
01:21:54,584 --> 01:21:55,584
Some things are funny.

986
01:21:55,904 --> 01:21:58,324
Like I told this already, but I want to repeat.

987
01:21:58,324 --> 01:22:03,045
Thether was more BAP 110 friendly than me.

988
01:22:03,744 --> 01:22:06,564
So this is just funny.

989
01:22:06,904 --> 01:22:08,084
It's not important to say,

990
01:22:08,204 --> 01:22:10,545
but people that tell that there is the conspiracy.

991
01:22:11,284 --> 01:22:13,305
Luckily for Bitcoin,

992
01:22:13,964 --> 01:22:18,564
I was against Thether in opposing BAP 110 more than they did.

993
01:22:19,105 --> 01:22:22,024
But anyway, this is the funny point.

994
01:22:22,024 --> 01:22:27,904
And the other one is that I don't act within Ocean

995
01:22:27,904 --> 01:22:33,024
as an employee or shareholder or partner or manager of Tether.

996
01:22:33,284 --> 01:22:37,884
I'm there with my own money, personal money, not Tether's money,

997
01:22:38,225 --> 01:22:41,045
because Luke asked me when he trusted me.

998
01:22:41,425 --> 01:22:43,084
So it's a completely different story.

999
01:22:43,084 --> 01:22:45,244
I'm inside many other companies.

1000
01:22:46,605 --> 01:22:51,045
My participation in R-Collapse is not Tether, it's me.

1001
01:22:51,264 --> 01:22:54,725
My participation in Rely, with all the debate about KYC,

1002
01:22:54,824 --> 01:22:56,884
we had a lot of fallout, but it was me.

1003
01:22:56,884 --> 01:23:00,045
my participation in Portal with Alecos.

1004
01:23:00,545 --> 01:23:03,605
So my personal investments and advisory roles,

1005
01:23:03,764 --> 01:23:07,384
I'm an advisor in Breeze, not because of Tether.

1006
01:23:07,844 --> 01:23:10,925
So Tether for me is a client paying 50%

1007
01:23:10,925 --> 01:23:12,384
of some educational activity.

1008
01:23:14,364 --> 01:23:15,524
Yeah, all right.

1009
01:23:15,725 --> 01:23:18,744
That should settle that, I think.

1010
01:23:18,744 --> 01:23:21,665
And I think I'm going to name this episode,

1011
01:23:21,824 --> 01:23:22,384
Trust Me Bro.

1012
01:23:22,964 --> 01:23:25,244
Yeah, correct, correct.

1013
01:23:25,244 --> 01:23:29,844
verify me bro

1014
01:23:29,844 --> 01:23:32,565
that's another thing to meme into reality

1015
01:23:32,565 --> 01:23:32,985
maybe

1016
01:23:32,985 --> 01:23:36,024
Giacomo it's always a pleasure to talk to you

1017
01:23:36,024 --> 01:23:38,024
and we'll have plenty of chances

1018
01:23:38,024 --> 01:23:40,084
to do that this coming

1019
01:23:40,084 --> 01:23:41,504
months

1020
01:23:41,504 --> 01:23:44,284
first of all we'll see each other in Helsinki

1021
01:23:44,284 --> 01:23:46,305
and then in Lugano

1022
01:23:46,305 --> 01:23:47,584
and then in El Salvador

1023
01:23:47,584 --> 01:23:49,524
so looking forward to all

1024
01:23:49,524 --> 01:23:52,144
three of those occasions

1025
01:23:52,144 --> 01:23:54,204
it's educational

1026
01:23:54,204 --> 01:23:57,064
and inspiring as always.

1027
01:23:57,684 --> 01:23:59,904
Thank you very much for having this conversation

1028
01:23:59,904 --> 01:24:03,904
and looking forward to the future as always.

1029
01:24:04,204 --> 01:24:04,584
Me too.

1030
01:24:04,744 --> 01:24:07,324
I enjoy not knowing about it.

1031
01:24:08,305 --> 01:24:09,925
Most people are afraid of it,

1032
01:24:10,144 --> 01:24:11,764
but don't be afraid of the future.

1033
01:24:11,904 --> 01:24:13,264
The future is a beautiful place.

1034
01:24:14,004 --> 01:24:14,644
Totally agreed.

1035
01:24:14,864 --> 01:24:17,824
And listen to Knut's music.

1036
01:24:18,064 --> 01:24:18,984
I really like it.

1037
01:24:19,684 --> 01:24:20,464
Oh, thank you.

1038
01:24:21,184 --> 01:24:22,165
It's very, very good.

1039
01:24:22,165 --> 01:24:31,225
Yes, it's only on Fountain at the moment, but coming to the Fiat platform soon if any Tether people are listening to this.

1040
01:24:31,985 --> 01:24:34,024
You're becoming a suit coiner as well.

1041
01:24:35,805 --> 01:24:42,165
Yeah, we'll see. Thank you very much. Like, subscribe and brush your damn teeth. We'll see you next time. Bye.

1042
01:24:42,545 --> 01:24:42,764
Bye.

1043
01:24:52,165 --> 01:25:22,144
Thank you.