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Tomer, a warm welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

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Nice to have you here.

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Thank you.

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It's nice to be back.

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I found this strange phenomenon that I'm reaching out to old friends and saying,

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hey, you want to catch up?

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And they're like, yeah, let's do a podcast.

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So nobody really wants to talk to me one-on-one, but they want me to be on the podcast.

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So I'll be on a few podcasts.

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Yeah, but I think it's because I always have such valuable conversations with you.

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So why not just record them?

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share them with the world share them with the world so yeah i i guess that's i mean i never

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intended to become a podcaster it sort of just happened to me right but i figured out that i

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like it quite a lot because it's it forces me to to uh catch up with people and catch up with my

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friends and and see how they're doing and like yeah um keep keep circling back to why why you

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like them in the first place.

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Yeah, that's absolutely true.

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And it keeps you focused

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because it re-anchors you

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in the mission that you've chosen

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to do your podcasts about.

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Because once many, many moons ago,

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I was podcaster too.

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I got podcast.

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And it's hard to believe

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it was all about self-sovereignty.

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This is like 2021 or something.

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But I didn't keep it going.

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No, I remember I had

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a conversation with

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Corey recently and he

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asked me if I tuned in to

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the cafe

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Swan thing, spaces

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lately.

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And I said, not lately, but

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I used to be in them when Tomer was

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hosting them. And he was like,

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I don't believe Tomer was ever hosting them,

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but he was always in them.

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Fair enough.

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There was a period after,

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this is such trivia,

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there was a period after Alex

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Stanzik, who was the regular daily host, took a step back from it, that we were rotating,

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hosting it one day a week, like four or five of us at Swan. And so to set the record straight,

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I did host Cafe Bitcoin a number of times. Okay. Yeah. It's easy to mix these things up

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because there's so much happening over such a short period of time. When I rewind the clock

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and look back at the last,

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just the last five years,

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it's completely insane,

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like most of it.

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But that's a privileged position

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to be in, I guess.

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I'd rather have an interesting life,

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interesting chaotic life

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than an uninteresting,

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non-chaotic one.

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I've been thinking about that

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a little bit lately.

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I think I'm a little bit older than you.

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I know my kids are older than you.

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And I'm kind of at the stage

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where I'd like less chaos in my life.

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I've had a very chaotic life and I've enjoyed it and I've enjoyed the innovation and the thrill of the ups and downs of success and failure and fear and triumph, I suppose, all of those things.

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And I don't want to give them up.

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I don't want to not have experienced them.

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But as I get older, I don't need them anymore.

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I feel like I've had them.

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It'd be nice if Bitcoin reached a nice high price and kind of stayed there and I could just travel with my wife and my kids could find normal jobs in a normal life.

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And there wasn't the constant threat of AI destroying all of humanity or some leader debasing all the currency.

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Or what else is another imminent Armageddon that we're being warned about?

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I mean, the AI FUD to me sounds a lot like the climate change FUD, to be honest.

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Like it's always this the world's going to end kind of thing.

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That's a really interesting tie in because it ties in more than just that the it's Armageddon,

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nothing you can do about it.

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It's already, you know, you can live miserably and not enjoy the technology that causes this

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thing, but it's still not going to stop it.

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What we were told with climate change is it's too late.

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there's nothing you can do

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please use

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paper straws

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the world is going to end

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anyways but this way you'll be reminded

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every time you try to take a sip of your drink

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that with the paper

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lint in your mouth it's the price you pay for

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Armageddon of the boomers

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and the AI

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thing is kind of similar too

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whether you use it or not

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it's

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coming and it's going to destroy us

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and

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we need to limit your use of it but it's not going to save the world yeah yeah but it's so

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funny because it sort of points out how skewed the perspective is because uh all every all tools

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or technologies that humanity ever created have the same single purpose they are there to save us

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time or save someone time somewhere and the only reason for us to fear any tool or technology

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is that something else in society is funneling that time-saving out of our own hands and into

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the hands of the few. And that something would be the fiat monetary system. So if we hadn't had that,

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then everyone would benefit from every single tool and technology, including AI and even

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sentient AI, which I don't believe in, by the way. So are you saying that every single technology

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has led to, its adoption has led to saving our time

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with the sole exception, potentially, of fiat money,

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which has stolen our time.

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Yeah, well, it has saved time for those people

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who want to do that to other people,

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who want to control other people

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and who want to dupe other people

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and who want to counterfeit and print money.

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If you're that guy, then having a computerized money printer that can print digital dollars instead of physical dollars is, of course, a great time saver because now you just have to press a bunch of zeros on a keyboard instead of actually physically printing bills.

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So it is saving that guy time.

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It's important to understand who the user of a technology is and who the usee of the technology is.

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With a gun, it saves me a lot of time if I want to kill you.

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But as the user, it saves me a lot of time and killing you makes it a lot easier.

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It doesn't really save your time as the usee of it.

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It ends your time.

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No, but this is sort of the thing that Bitcoin alludes to by showing the world that the free market is deflationary is that when used properly to just save time for you for not doing aggressive things.

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if people do that then everyone wins yeah it's it's the simple if we practice doing something

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do we get better or worse at it and of course we get better therefore all prices should fall forever

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yeah and they do with the right denominator uh at least hypothetically yeah so i feel like we're

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going to go back to economics 101 if we keep this conversation going because yeah and that's the

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purpose of money right it's like you produce something that you're not going to consume

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because you trade it for something,

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not the thing you are going to consume,

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you trade it for something, money,

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that you're going to exchange for something

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that you're going to consume.

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And that gives all the possibilities of,

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I can work writing articles

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and somebody will pay me to write articles

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and then I can go to someone who made shoes

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and someone who runs a ski resort

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and somebody who...

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Yeah, exactly.

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And I can exchange the thing that I earned with all of them.

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And that's the proper purpose of money.

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And then the fiat system comes in and through all sorts of rationalizations says,

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well, we need a central administrator of the printing and of the creation of the money.

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Who it gets distributed to upon its creation is not who did the work to create it,

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but who has privilege and proximity to the money printer.

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And this of course begs corruption right It invites people who understand that there easy money to be had rather than fair money to be had And so the psychopaths are drawn towards this thing rather than the honorable individuals who believe in just money money that has justice into it

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And so we end up on this slippery slope.

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And then where we are today, I don't know when you're going to broadcast this, but just

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I think the day before yesterday, Donald Trump promised $5,000 to every American if they

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vote the Republican.

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is that money it's not money he's earned it's money it's right that's explicitly proximity to

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the money printer to buy votes and ask every american to cast aside their principle of what

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they're actually interested in politically for a bribe of fake money it really is quite appalling

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and unprecedented and and it's definitely not capitalism it's absolute central planning it's

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not even socialist it's communist behavior and and also the the reason he can do that

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is that he's exporting the inflation i'm paying for that more than you more than your average

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american is yes but you realize i'm canadian so i'm paying for it yeah i was about to say that

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but yeah you saw me stopping myself there so you're paying for it too and i'm paying for it

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But Americans are not paying for it.

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And it's just such a farce at this point.

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Yeah, I don't remember if it was Mises or Rothbard that called money a good sugenaris.

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So it's not a consumer good nor a producer good or a factor of production.

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But sugenaris means it's for a single purpose only, and that is to exchange it for other goods and services in the future.

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Which is also why it can't have other use cases, but it's having other use cases actually makes it worse as a good sui generis.

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Perfect. And that's a temptation for me to compare Bitcoin to gold because gold advocates say, well, look at all the industrial and jewelry uses of gold and you can use it with your teeth. And it's like, well, so then that's what it should be used for. We should have an exchange, a single use product, a commodity whose only use is exchange. It can't be consumed. It can't be used in an industry. And that's really what Bitcoin is.

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And it's better at the single use purpose of exchangeability because it's uninflatable, it's unconfiscatable, it's uncensorable, it's permissionless.

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It's got all of these things, none of which are true about gold.

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And it's teleportable.

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I think that's pretty important.

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It's back up a bowl.

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It's actually, it's not even in a single location.

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You know, if you have a multi-sig setup, the Bitcoin isn't, you can argue it's on the blockchain, but the blockchain isn't in any single location.

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No, no.

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Or you could actually say the Bitcoin isn't in a vault.

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It's like one of three keys is in one vault, another is in another vault,

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and until you bring them together, the Bitcoin cannot be moved.

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So that's better than keeping your gold in two safes,

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where if one safe gets compromised, you lose half the gold.

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If you keep your Bitcoin keys in three safes and they're multi-sig,

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if one of the vaults get compromised, you've lost no Bitcoin.

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Now, I bet you've heard my argument around this,

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that whatever's on the time chain is not the Bitcoin,

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because it's only a historical record of what happened to them.

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So the actual important part, the important aspect of the Satoshi

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is your ability to move them.

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And that always lives in a human being's head,

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either if it's the actual private key or the location of a hardware wallet

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or a ping code doesn't matter.

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It's always just a secret that you keep from other people.

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So in effect, the important part,

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the important aspect of the Satoshi lives within your head,

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meaning that we are the Satoshis.

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And this is my mindfuck, you know, armchair philosopher.

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I think you take it a little too far for me,

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which is not, you know, because we could argue,

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we could split hairs and get into what I would ultimately say

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fallacious or context dropping arguments around like I could say well if I put the information

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in my head on the blockchain then now now has the bitcoin actually moved and moved onto the blockchain

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but I think what's more more important is if you're thinking about now

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when two people are talking about exchanging bitcoin because we said it has one purpose

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And the purpose is not to pontificate about it on podcasts. That's an accidental secondary purpose. The main purpose of it is to exchange. And so when it comes down to if there's an exchange, if I'm going to send you some amount of Bitcoin, we don't really care if that's in my head or in my keys or on the blockchain.

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We care that we can affect the change on the blockchain where the address you give me is going to end up with the amount of Bitcoin that I said I was going to send you.

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And I need to know how to affect that change on the blockchain, which comes from something from my head, I know.

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And the access to the keys, which I don't know.

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They're stored in multiple locations.

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So I have the know-how to go and access them, but I need to access them.

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And then I need to do this and that.

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So it's all of these things, right?

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And with all of these things in place, if you know how to generate a receive address and I know how to send my coins to that address, we can exchange Bitcoin and use it for its sole purpose.

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Yeah.

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And I think the saying that you own them is slightly wrong, too.

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You can act as if you own them if you think that the probability that someone else has access to the same key is low enough.

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And also the other thing you have to believe, which will lead us into the thing I want to talk about for real here, is that you believe that the system won't change to such an extent that it would lose its value.

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Then you can act as if you own the Satoshis.

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yes so the thing but the thing i really want wanted you on to talk about is is the aftermath

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of bit 110 here because i i want to to interview as many of my friends as possible about this and

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and how they uh how they think about how they thunk about the fork before it happened and

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what they're thinking now afterwards and i'm interviewing people on both sides so to speak

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I think there's more than two sides.

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Yeah, yeah, but so do I.

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I had a great conversation with Giacomo this morning.

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Yeah.

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And I'd love to hear your view on what happened.

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And you were pro the fork, as I remember, but simultaneously didn't really think it would happen.

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Maybe I'm putting words in your mouth here.

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You know, emotions and decision-making wavered at various points in time.

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I was, I think this thing took place in four or five stages.

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And there was stages that I was semi-committed to

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and stages that I had nothing to do with.

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Like initially there was the concern about the,

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the first stage was reservations or opposition to core V30.

228
00:16:20,601 --> 00:16:22,221
I mean, there were changes that were being made

229
00:16:22,221 --> 00:16:27,661
and whether those changes were technically sound or not,

230
00:16:27,861 --> 00:16:30,361
there was the how those changes went about

231
00:16:30,361 --> 00:16:31,721
and the dialogue that went about it.

232
00:16:32,041 --> 00:16:35,441
That I was very infuriated by

233
00:16:35,441 --> 00:16:39,061
and I felt that there was dismissal of conversation

234
00:16:39,061 --> 00:16:40,781
and things like that.

235
00:16:40,981 --> 00:16:43,421
That evolved into stage two, which was run knots

236
00:16:43,421 --> 00:16:45,241
and I ran knots.

237
00:16:45,341 --> 00:16:46,601
I'm still running knots actually,

238
00:16:46,601 --> 00:16:49,361
the old version of knots on this laptop here

239
00:16:49,361 --> 00:16:50,901
that I'm speaking to you from

240
00:16:50,901 --> 00:17:01,541
And that was, let's through policy send the message and which node we run, send the message that we don't like what's happened and we're opposed to it.

241
00:17:02,081 --> 00:17:05,281
And I was quite on board with that.

242
00:17:05,381 --> 00:17:12,061
And I think for not necessarily for technical reasons, but for philosophical reasons more than anything else.

243
00:17:12,301 --> 00:17:30,221
Then came the BIP movement which was a soft fork And although I understood I think where that was coming from I never signed on for that although I did express sympathy for it because it was sympathetic to what are you going to do now that

244
00:17:30,221 --> 00:17:38,161
running knots well I think I felt that the move to dip one to recommending a soft fork from the

245
00:17:38,161 --> 00:17:43,981
momentum that knots had was probably an error I wasn't sure I wasn't really involved in the

246
00:17:43,981 --> 00:17:49,941
movement in any meaningful way, but there was continued momentum of people running knots.

247
00:17:49,941 --> 00:18:00,041
And I guess I wasn't as concerned about the urgency to impose a change in Bitcoin.

248
00:18:01,101 --> 00:18:04,321
And I would have been pretty happy with a lot of people running knots,

249
00:18:04,841 --> 00:18:07,921
creating a check and balance on core and knots as well.

250
00:18:08,941 --> 00:18:10,661
So, but then BIP 110 came.

251
00:18:11,701 --> 00:18:13,321
I didn't run BIP 110.

252
00:18:13,321 --> 00:18:18,721
And I expressed sympathy or understanding for it, some sympathetic views towards it.

253
00:18:19,361 --> 00:18:21,181
And then it, it didn't succeed.

254
00:18:21,181 --> 00:18:28,881
And then the hard fork came, which I would call, I guess, the Blake, the Blake proof of work, hard chain fork.

255
00:18:29,001 --> 00:18:35,561
And I haven't said a thing about that because it's already two or three steps removed.

256
00:18:35,661 --> 00:18:43,181
So I, I think this movement escalated, um, and escalated in a way, I'm happy to answer specific

257
00:18:43,181 --> 00:18:49,041
questions, but escalated in a way that forked itself off of Bitcoin, which was, which is very

258
00:18:49,041 --> 00:18:56,201
unfortunate, because I think people leaving Bitcoin for another coin is, is mistaken in all kinds of

259
00:18:56,201 --> 00:19:05,101
ways, which we can get into. And, and it's good people, for the most part, who, you know, at least

260
00:19:05,101 --> 00:19:08,801
for as much a part as the quality of people in Bitcoin.

261
00:19:10,401 --> 00:19:14,201
And I lost the thread of

262
00:19:16,101 --> 00:19:18,401
why go why keep going on with this,

263
00:19:19,701 --> 00:19:22,401
especially as it moved into the hard fork territory

264
00:19:22,941 --> 00:19:26,502
and and some of the rhetoric around it right now that it's the real Bitcoin

265
00:19:26,502 --> 00:19:31,401
is like it's just too familiar to for previous hard forks.

266
00:19:33,061 --> 00:19:33,361
Yeah.

267
00:19:33,361 --> 00:19:44,441
So given that so many good people have now left legacy Bitcoin, if you will, do you think

268
00:19:44,441 --> 00:19:48,141
how much of a worse position is Bitcoin in general?

269
00:19:48,481 --> 00:19:55,561
Like, is it as robust as it were before the release of Core V30, given what happened afterwards?

270
00:19:56,221 --> 00:19:58,541
Well, I think it is actually, you know.

271
00:19:58,541 --> 00:20:09,301
And it's why I hope people, I don't know whether people will come back because there's philosophy, there's ego, there's all sorts of things.

272
00:20:09,502 --> 00:20:13,002
But this wasn't the only thing that happened in Bitcoin.

273
00:20:13,002 --> 00:20:19,581
Around the same time, we had other major events happen.

274
00:20:19,701 --> 00:20:32,941
We had the cold card exploit, which was an exploit of entropy generation of hardware wallets and a hardware wallet with a very good reputation, perhaps the best reputation at the time in Bitcoin.

275
00:20:34,221 --> 00:20:41,101
And the reaction to that was a real strengthening of Bitcoin.

276
00:20:41,101 --> 00:20:48,001
people who had taken a lot for granted, trusted, cold card trusted developers

277
00:20:48,001 --> 00:20:54,881
who were on both sides of this issue, if we call it a two-sided issue,

278
00:20:55,501 --> 00:21:00,921
but more so on the not-nots camp, not-bip 110 camp,

279
00:21:01,261 --> 00:21:06,921
really stepped up to explore exploits and fortify things.

280
00:21:06,921 --> 00:21:12,941
And then even more recently, we've had this hack of the liquid side chain.

281
00:21:14,641 --> 00:21:30,301
And I think that's caused people to want to be more diligent at the code level about what exploits are and aren't present that could lead to loss of funds or loss of confidence and conviction.

282
00:21:30,301 --> 00:21:38,101
And I think that that's really much more meaningful than where this debate ended up.

283
00:21:38,221 --> 00:21:43,421
This debate ended up on a governance style issue.

284
00:21:43,781 --> 00:21:56,061
And I think the side that was critical of CORE, we'll just call it that, take all those people and put them on one side, actually scored some significant victories.

285
00:21:56,061 --> 00:22:00,181
They raised awareness for the fact that it's a small group of people.

286
00:22:00,301 --> 00:22:06,161
They raised awareness over the hiring process or the appointment processes that took place.

287
00:22:06,161 --> 00:22:19,221
And all of this raised awareness actually will prevent those things from occurring again in the future, especially if the same people are around and vigilant and concerned about it.

288
00:22:19,221 --> 00:22:42,861
And so there's a part for me, which is, I think, I think, I don't know what the war is, but I think some battles were won and some battles were lost. And the decision to secede from the Union, because certain battles weren't won, is not a decision I concur with.

289
00:22:42,861 --> 00:22:50,721
no i i've agreed i came to the same conclusion quite early like two days after the uh the failure

290
00:22:50,721 --> 00:22:59,081
of the fork i realized that uh now the job is to keep people on on the main chain because as many

291
00:22:59,081 --> 00:23:06,002
the more people who were uh on the like not undecided about whether to fork off or not

292
00:23:06,002 --> 00:23:12,101
the more people we can keep in bitcoin of those people those hardcore based bitcoiners the the

293
00:23:12,101 --> 00:23:17,421
better off bitcoin is yeah so so it's the the reverse red button blue button scenario where

294
00:23:17,421 --> 00:23:25,921
now the blue button is stay instead of the blue button is go with the software right so so so so

295
00:23:25,921 --> 00:23:32,781
that was to me that was pretty pretty clear and pretty obvious quite quite early on because also

296
00:23:32,781 --> 00:23:39,861
like understand why the miners could make the decision they made because bit 110 was not

297
00:23:39,861 --> 00:23:46,181
economically significant enough like uh the 5 000 new nodes probably didn't have very much activity

298
00:23:46,181 --> 00:23:53,421
on them since uh since they were from these new sales records from start nine and so on so yeah

299
00:23:53,421 --> 00:24:00,781
and concerning the cold card hack and and the like not your keys not your coins like it it also means

300
00:24:00,781 --> 00:24:07,002
not your entropy not your coins like and and while cold card the company had a good reputation i i

301
00:24:07,002 --> 00:24:12,561
I think their CEO had a bit of a questionable reputation, at least in some circles.

302
00:24:13,242 --> 00:24:16,381
And they've lost all their reputation now.

303
00:24:16,481 --> 00:24:20,121
I mean, they're doomed, which they should be because they lost people's funds.

304
00:24:20,341 --> 00:24:23,742
And they had one job, and that was not to lose people's funds.

305
00:24:24,441 --> 00:24:25,081
And now they've lost.

306
00:24:25,161 --> 00:24:25,301
Yeah.

307
00:24:25,661 --> 00:24:26,941
So I think they're doomed.

308
00:24:27,181 --> 00:24:27,621
They're done.

309
00:24:27,621 --> 00:24:28,421
It's interesting.

310
00:24:28,561 --> 00:24:35,821
It's like they made, the analogy is tough here with brands, but they made the most feature-rich

311
00:24:35,821 --> 00:24:39,721
Bitcoin-only hardware signing device,

312
00:24:40,181 --> 00:24:43,541
and they screwed up step one.

313
00:24:44,021 --> 00:24:44,781
The one thing.

314
00:24:45,101 --> 00:24:45,621
The one thing.

315
00:24:46,341 --> 00:24:47,701
It was the default setup,

316
00:24:48,661 --> 00:24:50,261
the default out-of-the-box setup.

317
00:24:50,921 --> 00:24:52,861
And so only advanced users

318
00:24:52,861 --> 00:24:55,061
still have all this amazing functionality,

319
00:24:55,541 --> 00:24:57,121
and maybe it finds itself

320
00:24:57,121 --> 00:25:00,641
some kind of home in some situation.

321
00:25:00,961 --> 00:25:02,181
Like, the dust has yet to settle

322
00:25:02,181 --> 00:25:03,801
on a lot of these things, right?

323
00:25:03,801 --> 00:25:07,941
One can say cold card is finished, but I understand.

324
00:25:08,161 --> 00:25:13,502
I haven't been to their website, but I understand they're still selling devices and that there's still demand for it.

325
00:25:14,941 --> 00:25:16,341
I wonder who buys those.

326
00:25:16,561 --> 00:25:18,301
I mean, would you buy one at this point?

327
00:25:19,221 --> 00:25:25,941
Well, provided that I could verify everything that it's doing, there's a lot of things that I liked about the cold card, actually.

328
00:25:26,281 --> 00:25:27,161
And they looked cool.

329
00:25:27,161 --> 00:25:35,521
and they made it easier to input dice and they made it easier to use a whole bunch of advanced

330
00:25:35,521 --> 00:25:42,261
features on bitcoin and they had a the state-of-the-art one the q the molecule had like a laser

331
00:25:42,261 --> 00:25:49,421
scanner that you could scan uh the upc codes and had nfc and it had battery operation or power

332
00:25:49,421 --> 00:26:08,422
operation So it had just a lot of flexibility around it And I someone who very careful when I spend Bitcoin Like I don just sign a transaction and then send it I decode it and review it on an offline computer to make sure that the change address is the right

333
00:26:08,422 --> 00:26:13,962
receive one, one, and the send address is the right one. And that's been beneficial to me

334
00:26:13,962 --> 00:26:19,282
because I think there were times when I actually made human error and accidentally like sent my

335
00:26:19,282 --> 00:26:26,202
whole stack to myself or somewhere. I'm not sure exactly what happened where, but I never broadcast

336
00:26:26,202 --> 00:26:31,002
those transactions and they're like, well, did I click the wrong buttons or what have you? So

337
00:26:31,002 --> 00:26:38,442
there's something to be said for a really good display. I'm not saying cold card's the only one.

338
00:26:38,522 --> 00:26:43,062
I think that there's lots of others, but I can actually understand why people who are familiar

339
00:26:43,062 --> 00:26:46,922
with it, who flashed the hardware and who are going to verify everything that they see signed

340
00:26:46,922 --> 00:26:53,342
on it will continue to use cold cards that they've had and potentially even buy more.

341
00:26:53,342 --> 00:26:57,662
And if there's a change in ownership and a change in government, this is the thing.

342
00:26:57,842 --> 00:27:06,322
The analogy is, does one mistake warrant abandonment of the entire thing, or does it warrant correction?

343
00:27:07,342 --> 00:27:10,062
Well, it depends on what the mistake is, I guess.

344
00:27:10,702 --> 00:27:11,122
Yes.

345
00:27:11,902 --> 00:27:12,222
Great.

346
00:27:12,682 --> 00:27:13,062
Right.

347
00:27:14,222 --> 00:27:20,082
But I ask that question both as it relates to Core VEAST 30 and Coldcard, right?

348
00:27:20,442 --> 00:27:20,742
Yeah.

349
00:27:21,742 --> 00:27:22,222
Yeah.

350
00:27:22,222 --> 00:27:23,942
Yeah, that's a good point.

351
00:27:24,782 --> 00:27:27,382
And as far as liquid,

352
00:27:27,922 --> 00:27:30,962
liquid was never Bitcoin.

353
00:27:31,422 --> 00:27:33,122
This is a lesson for people

354
00:27:33,122 --> 00:27:35,082
that anything that isn't a Satoshi,

355
00:27:36,142 --> 00:27:38,762
really anything that isn't an on-chain Satoshi

356
00:27:38,762 --> 00:27:42,982
with maybe an exception for the Lightning Network

357
00:27:42,982 --> 00:27:44,202
where you actually...

358
00:27:44,202 --> 00:27:45,342
For self-customer Lightning.

359
00:27:45,622 --> 00:27:45,802
Yeah.

360
00:27:45,802 --> 00:27:54,262
Yeah, so anything else is really not to be trusted in the same sense as the Satoshi, I think.

361
00:27:54,262 --> 00:27:58,362
And I think this is like Bitcoin is not for everyone.

362
00:27:58,662 --> 00:27:59,902
It was never for everyone.

363
00:28:00,142 --> 00:28:02,962
It's for anyone, anyone willing to do the homework.

364
00:28:03,562 --> 00:28:14,942
And so I guess my question to you, there's always going to be this tradeoff between usability and I guess safety, because the more you know kind of thing.

365
00:28:14,942 --> 00:28:21,402
Like, will this always be a hurdle too big for mass adoption?

366
00:28:22,042 --> 00:28:31,062
I mean, I personally don't really know if mass adoption is, mass, you know, self-custody adoption is even necessary.

367
00:28:31,262 --> 00:28:38,662
I think it's necessary that most clever based moral people in the world who are going to change the world, that they use Bitcoin.

368
00:28:38,802 --> 00:28:39,402
I want that.

369
00:28:39,402 --> 00:28:48,022
But is it even possible, given that there's always a tradeoff between comfort and security here?

370
00:28:48,342 --> 00:28:50,642
It's a tough question. It's a tough question.

371
00:28:50,802 --> 00:28:58,322
In various points in my history, I would have answered with a lot of confidence and conviction one way, and then at other points in the other way.

372
00:28:58,322 --> 00:29:08,822
And I have to admit, I'm confused right now because I can see the hardware getting easier and easier and easier as people improve it.

373
00:29:08,822 --> 00:29:20,542
I can also see people getting more and more concerned about it and there still being easier and easier and easier ways to custody and better custodians over time.

374
00:29:20,542 --> 00:29:31,822
The quality of the custodians will probably get better as well and so they'll have their value proposition and others will have, you know, and self-custody solutions will have their value proposition.

375
00:29:31,822 --> 00:29:35,922
If you press me right now, which I think is what your question is doing, I would say,

376
00:29:36,302 --> 00:29:43,362
yeah, I don't think we're going to have worldwide mass adoption of self-custody and we don't need it.

377
00:29:43,642 --> 00:29:47,222
We're going to have worldwide mass adoption of Bitcoin.

378
00:29:48,602 --> 00:29:50,782
And that's not coming tomorrow either.

379
00:29:51,242 --> 00:30:00,482
But we'll have a battle of custodians who are more transparent and more reliable and more auditable.

380
00:30:00,482 --> 00:30:05,042
and we'll have improved solutions for self-custody

381
00:30:05,042 --> 00:30:09,602
that are also more reliable and more verifiable and easier to use.

382
00:30:09,822 --> 00:30:12,722
So we're just moving in the direction of technology,

383
00:30:12,722 --> 00:30:15,422
which is always better, faster, cheaper, easier.

384
00:30:16,442 --> 00:30:21,722
And we'll see that happen both in self-custody and not like...

385
00:30:21,722 --> 00:30:27,802
There's already some really slick-looking, easy-to-use solutions

386
00:30:27,802 --> 00:30:29,142
that are still early.

387
00:30:29,142 --> 00:30:34,202
so you might be hesitant to use them on the basis that you don't necessarily want to be the first

388
00:30:34,202 --> 00:30:39,802
person to store your entire stack on a frost wallet on those frost wallets that snap together

389
00:30:39,802 --> 00:30:47,782
that look like little iphone minis but that's a really slick solution i think they should have

390
00:30:47,782 --> 00:30:54,682
called it the human centipede wallet yeah that's so that's why nobody's gonna hire you as a marketing

391
00:30:54,682 --> 00:31:02,762
vp i guess so yeah yeah change the subject maybe before before we say anything more about that

392
00:31:02,762 --> 00:31:10,202
so yeah all the hacks uh it was also btc pay server uh that went down and bolts um all of

393
00:31:10,202 --> 00:31:17,222
these things uh do you think like um how conspiratory do you tend to be in situations

394
00:31:17,222 --> 00:31:22,722
like this do you think that there's a big master plan like is there a chance that there is no i i

395
00:31:22,722 --> 00:31:27,862
I mean, this to me is, Occam's razor explains this one.

396
00:31:27,942 --> 00:31:33,222
All these hacks occurred right after these advanced AI models came out

397
00:31:33,222 --> 00:31:40,062
that were explicitly capable of probing vulnerabilities and exploiting vulnerabilities.

398
00:31:40,062 --> 00:31:46,162
And so it's no surprise at all that every one of these hacks occurred within a week of the release

399
00:31:46,162 --> 00:31:50,642
of one of these frontier open weights models.

400
00:31:50,642 --> 00:31:59,482
I don't think that all these things were known and then multiple parties or a singular party

401
00:31:59,482 --> 00:32:02,922
rung the bell and that they were all exploited all at once.

402
00:32:03,622 --> 00:32:10,982
And I think the important takeaway is as gut-wrenching as it was to have all these things happen

403
00:32:10,982 --> 00:32:20,262
in quick succession, every one of these attacked platforms got stronger.

404
00:32:20,262 --> 00:32:21,322
as a consequence, right?

405
00:32:21,422 --> 00:32:26,382
The cold card is fixed and audited now by many people who've checked it.

406
00:32:26,382 --> 00:32:33,702
And there's been a whole movement to create this entropy evaluation solution

407
00:32:33,702 --> 00:32:38,182
that's been developed open source live on Twitter spaces with, you know,

408
00:32:38,222 --> 00:32:43,002
people popping in and out, creating it and checking each other's code

409
00:32:43,002 --> 00:32:44,402
and checking in and checking out.

410
00:32:44,742 --> 00:32:48,642
So I think Bitcoin is anti-fragile.

411
00:32:48,642 --> 00:32:50,662
and you've seen it in these things.

412
00:32:50,822 --> 00:32:52,202
It's like when it gets attacked,

413
00:32:53,002 --> 00:32:55,482
the consequences, it gets stronger.

414
00:32:55,682 --> 00:32:57,662
And in the same way as when you get attacked,

415
00:32:57,762 --> 00:33:00,022
you are prepared for that attack the next time around.

416
00:33:00,162 --> 00:33:01,742
And you're thinking about other attacks

417
00:33:01,742 --> 00:33:02,982
you might be vulnerable to.

418
00:33:03,322 --> 00:33:04,482
And that's exactly what's happening

419
00:33:04,482 --> 00:33:05,542
in the Bitcoin community.

420
00:33:05,542 --> 00:33:08,062
There's a lot of time and energy being spent

421
00:33:08,062 --> 00:33:10,482
on red teaming and testing things

422
00:33:10,482 --> 00:33:15,362
and a lot less trust and a lot less naivete going into it.

423
00:33:15,482 --> 00:33:17,282
So it may be one step backward,

424
00:33:17,282 --> 00:33:22,202
but it's in the process of creating two to ten steps forward on security.

425
00:33:22,722 --> 00:33:26,762
And every one of these things, whether it's the fork of Bitcoin

426
00:33:26,762 --> 00:33:29,562
or the attack on cold card or the attack on elements

427
00:33:29,562 --> 00:33:32,042
or the attack on BTC pay server,

428
00:33:32,302 --> 00:33:34,302
actually ends up when the dust settles,

429
00:33:34,422 --> 00:33:37,762
which doesn't take too long, with a stronger version of Bitcoin.

430
00:33:38,082 --> 00:33:43,322
A Bitcoin that's aware of, and a Bitcoin community that's aware of,

431
00:33:43,322 --> 00:33:49,582
what vulnerabilities existed and how not to succumb to those vulnerabilities again in the future and

432
00:33:49,582 --> 00:33:59,702
the severity of those vulnerabilities so so um if you compare that so so yeah i i would agree that

433
00:33:59,702 --> 00:34:07,602
these attacks like these uh inevitably or eventually turn bitcoin strong makes bitcoin

434
00:34:07,602 --> 00:34:13,282
stronger because it's sort of like, yeah, we're resistant to that type of virus now.

435
00:34:13,402 --> 00:34:17,202
It's sort of vaccinating Bitcoin for lack of a better term.

436
00:34:17,842 --> 00:34:26,982
But if we take another attack vector, like also closer to the BIP-110 debacle, so if

437
00:34:26,982 --> 00:34:34,002
we now lost a lot of good Bitcoiners in that fight, is there a bigger risk for a cultural

438
00:34:34,002 --> 00:34:38,822
slippery slope where, because we lost a lot of the monetary maxes, right?

439
00:34:38,862 --> 00:34:43,122
So the people who understand that other use cases make big

440
00:34:43,135 --> 00:34:50,995
coin, worse money. So if a large portion of them are now forking off, is there a chance that

441
00:34:50,995 --> 00:35:00,635
Peter Todd's demirage thing comes in or the OFAC compliant transactions only from now on and all

442
00:35:00,635 --> 00:35:07,775
of these cultural attack vectors, are they stronger or weaker? I don't think so. I mean, I think

443
00:35:07,775 --> 00:35:14,775
inflation through demurrage or seizure of Satoshi's coins or stuff.

444
00:35:15,315 --> 00:35:18,215
There will be some kind of conversation that would have been inevitable,

445
00:35:18,455 --> 00:35:20,575
even with the monetary maximalists in here,

446
00:35:21,155 --> 00:35:25,255
who now are no longer and who perhaps are standing outside saying,

447
00:35:25,355 --> 00:35:28,555
see, I told you so, for when those conversations take place.

448
00:35:28,555 --> 00:35:34,835
I don't think that there's any greater risk of those things manifesting.

449
00:35:34,835 --> 00:35:43,835
I think the overwhelming majority, even of people who weren't monetary maximalists, is Bitcoin is money.

450
00:35:44,795 --> 00:35:50,095
Their argument technically was you can't stop spam, so don't bother trying.

451
00:35:50,215 --> 00:35:51,435
Let's focus on other things.

452
00:35:51,735 --> 00:35:53,315
That was overwhelmingly their argument.

453
00:35:53,315 --> 00:36:13,495
So if an argument comes in to diminish Bitcoin's ability to be used as money or to diminish its monetary characteristics, I think that those won't survive the test of the necessary soft fork or hard fork to implement them.

454
00:36:15,055 --> 00:36:19,995
And what was the other side of the question that you had that was the demuron?

455
00:36:19,995 --> 00:36:40,435
Well, let's dissect the first one, because I think that the BIP1 centers, like one of the arguments would be that these other use cases, whatever they are, the spam use cases actually do make Bitcoin worse as money because of the clogging the chain and therefore making the initial block download costlier.

456
00:36:40,435 --> 00:36:50,135
So it's a forever vector that is worsening, objectively worsening Bitcoin as money, both as a store of value and as a medium of exchange, if you zoom out long enough.

457
00:36:50,735 --> 00:36:50,815
Yeah.

458
00:36:50,955 --> 00:36:58,475
So it would say that these things are actually, you know, maluse or whatever.

459
00:36:58,475 --> 00:37:20,155
I guess when you compare, and this is where having had a hard fork, so having a parallel universe with the monetary maximalist extremists on it is already demonstrating itself to be technologically very difficult to enforce.

460
00:37:20,155 --> 00:37:23,775
There's a mining pool that has too much hash power.

461
00:37:23,975 --> 00:37:29,455
They're trying to get them to have less hash power, which doesn't make sense.

462
00:37:30,795 --> 00:37:40,755
Because if they pretend that they have less hash power and hash is another miner, they still have the hash power to conduct a 51% attack.

463
00:37:40,915 --> 00:37:43,815
So it ends up becoming about appearances.

464
00:37:44,915 --> 00:37:49,215
And you're just in this back and forth.

465
00:37:49,215 --> 00:38:05,955
I think we have to live with the reality that there are irrational non-monetary uses of Bitcoin that sneak under the possible prevention schemes that can be imposed.

466
00:38:06,875 --> 00:38:11,675
And that's the lesson that many people were trying to tell us.

467
00:38:13,135 --> 00:38:16,255
And they've made their point.

468
00:38:19,215 --> 00:38:23,455
and there's nothing that really can be done about it.

469
00:38:23,455 --> 00:38:26,855
And when you say it makes Bitcoin objectively worse,

470
00:38:26,855 --> 00:38:29,815
it's like, it's a teeny,

471
00:38:29,815 --> 00:38:31,575
I'll grant you that it makes it worse,

472
00:38:31,575 --> 00:38:33,595
but it's only a teeny tiny, teeny, tiny,

473
00:38:33,595 --> 00:38:35,735
tiny, tiny, tiny bit worse.

474
00:38:35,735 --> 00:38:39,475
And it doesn't mean that I can't use Bitcoin as money anymore.

475
00:38:39,475 --> 00:38:42,355
It doesn't mean that the time chain is too expensive to use.

476
00:38:42,355 --> 00:38:45,335
It doesn't mean that my access is permission,

477
00:38:45,335 --> 00:38:47,495
is permissioned all of a sudden.

478
00:38:47,495 --> 00:38:49,075
It doesn't mean 51% attacks.

479
00:38:49,355 --> 00:38:52,455
All it means is I need a little bit more hard disk space,

480
00:38:52,635 --> 00:38:55,235
which is very inexpensive to run a full node

481
00:38:55,235 --> 00:38:58,435
and maybe a few more CPU cycles.

482
00:38:58,675 --> 00:39:01,035
And so I've had people come to me and say,

483
00:39:01,155 --> 00:39:05,835
like my Raspberry Pi 4 node with one terabyte hard drive

484
00:39:05,835 --> 00:39:07,995
died as a result of the spam,

485
00:39:08,075 --> 00:39:10,515
and it wouldn't have died if it wasn't as a result of the spam.

486
00:39:10,515 --> 00:39:14,495
And it's like, okay, that's the example.

487
00:39:14,495 --> 00:39:21,835
but if you have a piece of hardware that costs more than $50, you're able to withstand it.

488
00:39:21,935 --> 00:39:26,795
I actually, my start nine node died the day before yesterday.

489
00:39:26,995 --> 00:39:30,675
I think it was, we had a couple short power outages and there was a power surge.

490
00:39:30,755 --> 00:39:35,695
So I think the power surge took it out and so like the power surge was more dangerous

491
00:39:35,695 --> 00:39:40,495
than all the spam for the survivability of my node.

492
00:39:40,495 --> 00:39:41,955
And now I have to rebuild the thing.

493
00:39:41,955 --> 00:39:54,175
And ironically, I took all my, I, I had fun sitting on it in lightning and I swept them all when all these attacks started out of just an abundance of caution.

494
00:39:54,175 --> 00:39:58,875
Cause I was thinking, well, you know, I'm keeping material amounts of money in a hot wallet.

495
00:39:59,015 --> 00:40:00,435
I'm going to swipe it.

496
00:40:00,475 --> 00:40:03,255
So I moved it to cold storage and then, then the thing broke.

497
00:40:03,255 --> 00:40:07,715
So I dodged a bullet out of sheer luck again, or for the wrong reasons.

498
00:40:07,835 --> 00:40:09,455
I did the right thing for the wrong reasons.

499
00:40:09,455 --> 00:40:17,615
But I just, I don't think, like, I think we need to be united on Bitcoin as it is.

500
00:40:17,915 --> 00:40:23,735
We need to accept that it has the limitations that it does have.

501
00:40:23,755 --> 00:40:31,095
And then we don't want to compromise those limitations, the most important ones, in exchange for nice-to-haves.

502
00:40:31,415 --> 00:40:33,595
And the nice-to-haves can't even be had.

503
00:40:33,595 --> 00:40:36,315
You know, they come at such a cost.

504
00:40:36,315 --> 00:40:41,795
Like I wouldn't want to be, and I guess I have the choice, right?

505
00:40:41,875 --> 00:40:47,035
And so I, and I'm not on the hard fork side of this thing, because I think, I think, I

506
00:40:47,035 --> 00:40:52,695
think what is given up, not just in terms of the price of the coin, the liquidity and

507
00:40:52,695 --> 00:40:56,875
awareness and network participation, but in permissionlessness and censorship, resistance

508
00:40:56,875 --> 00:40:58,755
and predictability of the future state of it.

509
00:40:58,755 --> 00:41:10,515
Like once you hard fork, you've committed, you've, you're on a path that will entertain future hard forks.

510
00:41:10,515 --> 00:41:18,695
And every one of these things that you have raised concerns about require hard forking into the future.

511
00:41:19,495 --> 00:41:27,035
So I know there's people who are going to be listening who are angry with me for not taking that side.

512
00:41:27,035 --> 00:41:29,195
I think you actually won.

513
00:41:30,235 --> 00:41:37,715
You didn't win wholeheartedly, unequivocally with an unconditional surrender from the other side.

514
00:41:38,535 --> 00:41:40,555
And to be honest, you didn't deserve to.

515
00:41:41,855 --> 00:41:43,415
It's not because you're bad people.

516
00:41:43,555 --> 00:41:47,415
It's because there's truth on both sides of this equation.

517
00:41:47,755 --> 00:41:55,315
And if you eat only one part of the truth and not the other part, you're leaving out a very important aspect.

518
00:41:55,315 --> 00:41:57,675
So Bitcoin is still fine.

519
00:41:58,395 --> 00:42:07,395
It's unfortunate that it's got all these op returns on it, but it's not fatal and it doesn't diminish its ability to be used as money.

520
00:42:08,615 --> 00:42:14,635
And Bitcoin is stronger because of all of the attacks that have been there.

521
00:42:14,995 --> 00:42:19,595
And you can see, you know, you can take your time, especially for people who haven't dumped their Bitcoin.

522
00:42:19,595 --> 00:42:24,555
You can take your time and see what happens over time.

523
00:42:25,315 --> 00:42:34,695
But Bitcoin is getting stronger and staying part of the unity, even if it's got people you don't like in it.

524
00:42:35,835 --> 00:42:38,035
That's always going to be a part of Bitcoin.

525
00:42:38,175 --> 00:42:39,835
Bitcoin's always had people we didn't like.

526
00:42:39,915 --> 00:42:47,315
It's always had scammers and crooks and drug dealers and drug users, if those are people who you don't like.

527
00:42:47,315 --> 00:42:56,755
And it's open for anyone, including people you don't like, including people who are going to do with it what you don't like.

528
00:42:57,175 --> 00:43:03,495
But the reason you're in it is because no one can stop you from doing what they don't like.

529
00:43:04,935 --> 00:43:08,435
And if what you like to do is use it as money, you can use it as money.

530
00:43:08,795 --> 00:43:10,795
And nobody's going to stop you from doing that.

531
00:43:10,795 --> 00:43:17,115
And there's so many layers of engineering improvement and fairness in it that if you

532
00:43:17,115 --> 00:43:34,435
start to fiddle with some of them to limit how much op return data can be stored on chain the consequence is you start to compromise those other aspects of it and i think that a lesson that being learned through the experience

533
00:43:34,435 --> 00:43:42,635
of the hard four yeah um i remember a conversation we had on madeira uh where where you talked about

534
00:43:42,635 --> 00:43:46,135
how the block size wars was a battle we won.

535
00:43:46,255 --> 00:43:48,395
It was not, we did not win the war.

536
00:43:48,395 --> 00:43:53,875
We showed the others, or big Bitcoin, if you will,

537
00:43:53,955 --> 00:43:58,135
that we could win a battle, which we clearly did.

538
00:43:58,475 --> 00:44:02,875
And it was the thing that made my conviction like ironclad

539
00:44:02,875 --> 00:44:06,195
because I absolutely loved how it played out.

540
00:44:06,295 --> 00:44:08,835
All the big money in Bitcoin didn't have anything to say

541
00:44:08,835 --> 00:44:14,655
because what the plebs wanted is what won in the end.

542
00:44:15,575 --> 00:44:20,035
So given how the latest fork played out,

543
00:44:20,035 --> 00:44:23,415
has your memory of WIP-148

544
00:44:23,415 --> 00:44:27,415
and the user-activated soft fork back in 2017 changed?

545
00:44:28,315 --> 00:44:30,295
Or do you still have the, like,

546
00:44:30,875 --> 00:44:34,975
was our view or our memory of that too romanticized perhaps?

547
00:44:35,315 --> 00:44:36,815
A little bit. Maybe.

548
00:44:36,815 --> 00:44:57,895
You never really know. Our minds are finite and they're limited in what they can hold and we cling to narratives of what happened. Sometimes we oversimplify, sometimes we never got right in the first place. History is written by the victors. There's all these sorts of things.

549
00:44:57,895 --> 00:45:00,995
So we don't have a perfect image of what happened.

550
00:45:02,095 --> 00:45:09,415
We like to think, you know, we had BIP 148 and we ended up with Segwit and not the hard fork.

551
00:45:10,415 --> 00:45:26,015
The truth of the matter is, you know, and I think we definitely won a spiritual battle that endured for years against what were the big corporate people who thought that they ran Bitcoin via, you know, a meeting in a New York hotel.

552
00:45:26,015 --> 00:45:34,655
So there's no question that they're not going to try to do that again and that they can be stopped.

553
00:45:35,155 --> 00:45:41,295
But the likelihood of the success of the hard fork, there was a proposed soft fork and a proposed hard fork.

554
00:45:41,975 --> 00:45:49,355
And big Bitcoin at the time, the New York agreement, said we'll do both, which is how they lost.

555
00:45:49,355 --> 00:46:14,295
And so it was a self, it was an own goal because to do a hard fork, you need everyone to, to change their consensus rules. It's not backwards compatible. It's backwards incompatible. And, you know, and we, we, we've seen hundreds, maybe thousands of people embrace the, uh, the BIP 110 or Blake hard fork.

556
00:46:14,295 --> 00:46:20,335
I don't think we saw anybody embrace the SegWit2x hard fork.

557
00:46:20,515 --> 00:46:25,675
It didn't even fail to activate, if I recall correctly, because they only had one developer develop it.

558
00:46:26,275 --> 00:46:34,755
But Bitcoin Cash came out of it, which was a hard fork that Roger Ver and Jihan Wu were behind.

559
00:46:34,755 --> 00:46:41,755
And it had a lot of momentum at one point that seemed to go.

560
00:46:42,355 --> 00:46:44,095
But it's ultimately a loser.

561
00:46:44,295 --> 00:47:12,615
So, we can take these lessons in a bunch of different ways, and I don't mean to cast a final verdict on the Blake Proof of Work coin yet, but it's off to a slower start than Bitcoin Cash was, because it doesn't have such big economic actors as the largest mining equipment manufacturer and the richest Bitcoiner going on here.

562
00:47:12,615 --> 00:47:16,975
So there are similarities, but there's also big differences.

563
00:47:17,275 --> 00:47:21,195
But the differences that make the hard fork look in a tougher situation.

564
00:47:21,355 --> 00:47:28,475
So for me, there's a technical analysis on this, which is to say hard forks are extremely difficult.

565
00:47:28,895 --> 00:47:40,155
There hasn't really been a hard fork since Bitcoin has been of any size that has had any likelihood of winning over the Bitcoin community.

566
00:47:40,155 --> 00:47:42,995
What was the last one? Like the inflation bug or something?

567
00:47:42,995 --> 00:47:46,195
Yeah, there was an inflation bug very, very early on in Bitcoin's history.

568
00:47:46,195 --> 00:47:51,655
I think that was the only one that could even be considered to be called a hard fork.

569
00:47:51,655 --> 00:47:55,015
And it was like an inflation bug emergency when the community was small.

570
00:47:55,395 --> 00:48:02,515
Now we've got a huge community and people are trying to do it for reasons of bigger blocks, smaller blocks.

571
00:48:02,715 --> 00:48:05,575
I guess one was for bigger blocks, one's for smaller blocks.

572
00:48:06,115 --> 00:48:09,975
I hadn't quite appreciated the distinction there.

573
00:48:10,155 --> 00:48:18,555
But that's not enough to move the entire community to generate consensus.

574
00:48:19,155 --> 00:48:25,715
For a hard fork, a hard fork requiring everybody who's participating in the network to change their consensus rules.

575
00:48:25,855 --> 00:48:28,455
A non-backwards compatible upgrade.

576
00:48:28,455 --> 00:48:39,495
Now, if you're running a node and you don't commit the hard fork code, your node ceases to find blocks on the hard fork.

577
00:48:40,155 --> 00:48:45,915
because it violates its, the hard fork violates that your nodes consensus rules. So it's just,

578
00:48:47,035 --> 00:48:54,635
hard forks are really, really hard and you need, you need a overwhelming, overwhelming majority,

579
00:48:54,635 --> 00:49:00,795
like super majority of nodes to participate. And you need a case, so you need an incredibly

580
00:49:00,795 --> 00:49:08,155
strong case for it. And a case that's trumped up or a case that's not convincing enough is not

581
00:49:08,155 --> 00:49:11,755
going to move people to a hard fork.

582
00:49:11,755 --> 00:49:13,755
That's one thing I would say.

583
00:49:13,755 --> 00:49:20,155
If you're asking about the block size war from 2017 again,

584
00:49:20,155 --> 00:49:24,755
it was maybe that the hard fork side was doomed to begin with.

585
00:49:24,755 --> 00:49:28,755
And although we were doing, we might not have gotten Segwit,

586
00:49:28,755 --> 00:49:32,355
but we certainly weren't going to get the 2X thing

587
00:49:32,355 --> 00:49:34,755
because so many people were opposed to it.

588
00:49:34,755 --> 00:49:36,355
And...

589
00:49:38,155 --> 00:49:42,035
I'm happy to take a follow-up question.

590
00:49:42,035 --> 00:49:43,495
I feel like I've been speaking for 10 minutes.

591
00:49:43,495 --> 00:49:44,695
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

592
00:49:44,695 --> 00:49:48,695
So, yeah, this is, I mean,

593
00:49:49,895 --> 00:49:52,675
it's so fascinating though to me with a hard fork

594
00:49:52,675 --> 00:49:56,535
because you're right from a certain perspective

595
00:49:56,535 --> 00:49:59,775
that it requires everyone to upgrade

596
00:49:59,775 --> 00:50:01,975
or everyone to change the software.

597
00:50:01,975 --> 00:50:07,755
But from the perspective of a person who is hard forking,

598
00:50:08,155 --> 00:50:15,975
voluntarily regardless of financial repercussions from doing the hard fork it doesn't require anyone

599
00:50:15,975 --> 00:50:22,475
but yourself to like if you're fine yeah you're welcome to do yeah i mean when you step outside

600
00:50:22,475 --> 00:50:27,435
if you step outside of the arena into the spectator seats and see what's going on

601
00:50:27,435 --> 00:50:35,035
you know like you're seeing but you see hard forkers as a very and there's two teams on the field

602
00:50:35,035 --> 00:50:40,975
the hard fork field becomes this very small segment of the field

603
00:50:40,975 --> 00:50:43,335
and everybody else remains on there.

604
00:50:43,335 --> 00:50:46,875
To get everyone to, like, at the end of the day,

605
00:50:46,975 --> 00:50:49,435
yes, you're free to be a part of whatever community you want,

606
00:50:49,535 --> 00:50:52,735
but money is a networked, single-purpose-use thing.

607
00:50:52,895 --> 00:50:57,275
And if you're on a different money standard with a different commodity

608
00:50:57,275 --> 00:51:00,095
that is incompatible with the exchangeable commodity

609
00:51:00,095 --> 00:51:03,975
that everybody else is using, you may have,

610
00:51:05,035 --> 00:51:08,795
you may have mistaken principle for purpose.

611
00:51:08,795 --> 00:51:11,555
And I think there's a hierarchy of principles here, right?

612
00:51:11,555 --> 00:51:15,715
Like, you know, if you want,

613
00:51:15,715 --> 00:51:17,715
and it's where this notion of perfection

614
00:51:17,715 --> 00:51:21,815
becoming the enemy of the good can rear its ugly head.

615
00:51:21,815 --> 00:51:26,315
If you place the principle of no operaturns

616
00:51:26,315 --> 00:51:28,035
above the principle of being part

617
00:51:28,035 --> 00:51:30,595
of the largest monetary movement in the world

618
00:51:30,595 --> 00:51:32,395
with the greatest momentum

619
00:51:32,395 --> 00:51:36,315
and all these other attributes that we described,

620
00:51:36,315 --> 00:51:39,255
you will find yourself making decisions

621
00:51:39,255 --> 00:51:42,555
that aren't to the benefit of your monetary purpose

622
00:51:42,555 --> 00:51:44,755
and aren't to the monetary benefit

623
00:51:44,755 --> 00:51:46,975
of the direction that you've taken.

624
00:51:46,975 --> 00:51:50,415
So some of the challenges that are going on

625
00:51:50,415 --> 00:51:52,895
on the hard fork right now

626
00:51:52,895 --> 00:51:55,915
with there being a single miner or a single mining pool

627
00:51:55,915 --> 00:51:58,555
that has a lot of hash rate and controversy

628
00:51:58,555 --> 00:52:11,196
over whether to censor their ability to blacklist their coins and stuff like that That to me is the example of it time to step back and regain vision of why you actually

629
00:52:11,196 --> 00:52:17,756
here and to let go of things that you've misprioritized.

630
00:52:18,416 --> 00:52:25,336
If seeing one pool's hash rate too high is a priority for you over the permissionlessness

631
00:52:25,336 --> 00:52:30,916
of the participation in mining and the sanctity of the block rewards for the miner through proof

632
00:52:30,916 --> 00:52:37,596
of work, I think you've lost sight of how this thing works or maybe never had sight of it and

633
00:52:37,596 --> 00:52:41,896
don't realize that you never had sight of it. But it's probably more than the latter.

634
00:52:42,616 --> 00:52:48,676
I love that explanation. It's a hierarchy of principles. That's exactly it. They're

635
00:52:48,676 --> 00:52:56,536
evaluating principles that should be subordinate to more hardcore principles.

636
00:52:57,796 --> 00:53:00,136
So it's a beautiful way of putting it.

637
00:53:00,136 --> 00:53:05,676
Let me try to explain, because I know that I didn't know this until a couple of years

638
00:53:05,676 --> 00:53:12,376
ago because I never thought about it, but how a miner proves to a pool that he has the

639
00:53:12,376 --> 00:53:17,716
hash power that he says he hashed or that they say they have to use correct language

640
00:53:17,716 --> 00:53:17,916
here.

641
00:53:17,916 --> 00:53:34,596
So I guess I envisioned it as just the miner pushing through all the hash power through the internet cable, but that's not at all what happens. What they do is that they mine on blocks, imaginary blocks with lesser difficulty.

642
00:53:34,596 --> 00:53:42,836
so so so they find these uh semi-valid blocks that are only valid as proof of their hash that

643
00:53:42,836 --> 00:53:47,396
they have the hash power that they said say they have and then they provide those blocks to the pool

644
00:53:47,396 --> 00:53:53,256
so they can get the payout that yeah they're due but the other way around what's happening on the

645
00:53:53,256 --> 00:53:59,076
blake 2b chain now if i understand it correctly is that there's this one miner who says he has this

646
00:53:59,076 --> 00:54:05,036
that his hash power is low when in reality it's higher than he says it is and therefore he can

647
00:54:05,036 --> 00:54:13,076
it's easier for him to do a 51% attack or take over the mining so therefore this centralized team

648
00:54:13,076 --> 00:54:19,116
has to like stop this guy is that is that sort of how you see it almost but maybe i'm wrong about

649
00:54:19,116 --> 00:54:23,756
the details i think just explaining to people the first part of your point the technical the technical

650
00:54:23,756 --> 00:54:30,216
part, right? Let's say, I'm going to make up an arbitrary numbers. Let's say in order to do the

651
00:54:30,216 --> 00:54:37,636
proper proof of work, for Bitcoin to say your block is valid, you need 20 leading zeros in the

652
00:54:37,636 --> 00:54:44,016
hexadecimal of your hash. So to prove that they're, how much work they're doing, miners submit

653
00:54:44,016 --> 00:54:51,696
things that only have 16 leading zeros to the pool. Say, look, I found something that's 1 16th

654
00:54:51,696 --> 00:54:54,736
is easy or one one hundredth is easy.

655
00:54:55,236 --> 00:54:57,396
So I didn't find a block, but I did work.

656
00:54:57,516 --> 00:54:58,936
I use proven work.

657
00:54:59,136 --> 00:55:02,696
That's one one hundredth as hard as has the block.

658
00:55:02,696 --> 00:55:06,616
So you can see I'm submitting proofs of work that are equivalent to one

659
00:55:06,616 --> 00:55:09,376
one hundredth of a bit of a valid block.

660
00:55:09,376 --> 00:55:11,856
And so they're able to demonstrate that.

661
00:55:11,856 --> 00:55:13,636
So that's, that's the first part.

662
00:55:13,816 --> 00:55:16,876
I don't know exactly what's happening on the Blake to be side.

663
00:55:16,876 --> 00:55:20,556
I'm not like, I'm not in the discord group or following.

664
00:55:20,556 --> 00:55:22,316
I'm just seeing things that people are posting.

665
00:55:22,656 --> 00:55:24,936
I just heard one miner has too much power.

666
00:55:24,936 --> 00:55:30,956
Yeah, and usually it's, so like I've been to their mempool explorer here and there.

667
00:55:31,776 --> 00:55:37,216
I think you've got someone who's got more than 51% hash rate.

668
00:55:38,236 --> 00:55:44,476
And that's in part because they're new and there's not a lot of people have added hash rate.

669
00:55:44,796 --> 00:55:48,256
But as far as I understand, and I'm pretty confident in this claim,

670
00:55:48,256 --> 00:55:50,696
They haven't 51% attacked the network.

671
00:55:50,796 --> 00:55:54,836
A 51% attack of the network is essentially ensuring that you have all the blocks

672
00:55:54,836 --> 00:55:57,476
because you're ignoring the other blocks of the other miners.

673
00:55:58,076 --> 00:56:04,276
Or you're trying to double spend by sending someone some coin

674
00:56:04,276 --> 00:56:09,636
and then writing over that block and replacing the transaction that you sent to them

675
00:56:09,636 --> 00:56:11,156
with one that you sent to yourself.

676
00:56:11,456 --> 00:56:13,776
So there has not been a 51% attack.

677
00:56:13,776 --> 00:56:21,476
There's the possibility of a known actor potentially exercising a 51% attack.

678
00:56:21,936 --> 00:56:25,876
And so now there's a group that wants to discourage that.

679
00:56:26,696 --> 00:56:32,176
But what we actually have here, like you don't encourage a free market through central planning.

680
00:56:32,176 --> 00:56:49,936
And if there isn't enough demand from other miners to mine the coin in the face of this potential threat, then it's going to be a failed project, a failed coin.

681
00:56:49,936 --> 00:57:12,936
You know, declaring that there's already too many centralized miners in Bitcoin and then trying to prevent individuals from mining by threatening to freeze their coins through some central authority is not a decentralized solution to a problem of encroaching centralization and fear.

682
00:57:12,936 --> 00:57:27,096
So, again, I think this is where I'm not close enough to it, so maybe there's rationality behind it, but it feels like it's a very knee-jerk reaction to a quite anticipated problem.

683
00:57:27,536 --> 00:57:40,676
And if there's not enough hash power right now, then the believers in that network need to build and acquire and deploy hash power that decentralizes it to their degree of satisfaction.

684
00:57:40,676 --> 00:57:45,516
or they need to live with this

685
00:57:45,516 --> 00:57:48,276
or they need to declare that, you know,

686
00:57:48,396 --> 00:57:50,356
and acknowledge that they haven't succeeded

687
00:57:50,356 --> 00:57:54,896
in building a decentralized alternative to Bitcoin.

688
00:57:55,556 --> 00:57:56,936
And again, you know,

689
00:57:57,116 --> 00:58:00,656
I do these spaces on Sunday mornings,

690
00:58:00,796 --> 00:58:02,156
Bitcoin Philosophy Sunday,

691
00:58:02,456 --> 00:58:04,296
and a few weeks ago or a couple of weeks ago,

692
00:58:04,356 --> 00:58:06,396
we did one on, I didn't,

693
00:58:06,596 --> 00:58:08,956
and I don't think we talked about the Blake thing at all.

694
00:58:08,956 --> 00:58:18,236
Maybe someone brought it up at the very end in their summary comments, but it was all about admitting your mistakes and how hard it is to admit your mistakes.

695
00:58:18,376 --> 00:58:23,276
But one of the worst mistakes you can make is not admitting to a mistake because we all make mistakes.

696
00:58:23,756 --> 00:58:26,596
And sometimes we make mistakes that other people didn't.

697
00:58:26,736 --> 00:58:30,116
And so we feel like, oh, they were smarter than us or they were dumber than them.

698
00:58:31,116 --> 00:58:38,376
And so the temptation is to deny a mistake and then get back on a right track.

699
00:58:38,376 --> 00:58:40,556
You may still disagree with the person who got that right.

700
00:58:40,956 --> 00:58:42,296
You don't have to agree with everything they said.

701
00:58:42,376 --> 00:58:42,996
It doesn't make that.

702
00:58:43,356 --> 00:58:45,996
If you were wrong about something and someone else was right about something, that doesn't

703
00:58:45,996 --> 00:58:48,176
mean you were wrong about everything and they're right about everything.

704
00:58:48,856 --> 00:58:53,796
But you have to be able to admit your mistake when it's thrust in front of you.

705
00:58:53,796 --> 00:58:59,356
And I think this is where, at least from my perspective, and this is a subjective interpretation,

706
00:59:00,016 --> 00:59:07,636
I may have been mistaken in thinking that core V30 was not the best thing, but I felt

707
00:59:07,636 --> 00:59:11,776
it was the wrong thing. I may have been mistaken that you should run knots.

708
00:59:13,616 --> 00:59:18,196
I may not have been mistaken that you should shoot for BIP 110. BIP 110 didn't succeed.

709
00:59:18,696 --> 00:59:27,456
I may not have been mistaken that the hard fork was a mistake. But that's my view on this thing.

710
00:59:28,116 --> 00:59:32,356
And I think if I had the whole thing to rewind again with the benefit of hindsight, I would have

711
00:59:32,356 --> 00:59:40,296
said, this isn't the way to fight the fight. And maybe there needs to be a different kind of

712
00:59:40,296 --> 00:59:46,396
dialogue. It's hard to know the exact history of the universe. But one of the things that,

713
00:59:46,996 --> 00:59:51,436
I'm not exactly sure how we came up to this proof of work discussion on Blake 2B,

714
00:59:51,896 --> 00:59:56,276
I think these vulnerabilities, if they don't get figured out quickly, are going to be

715
00:59:56,276 --> 01:00:04,776
a historic lesson of why it's so hard to hard fork Bitcoin, even if you're a monetary maximalist

716
01:00:04,776 --> 01:00:10,736
and you think you've got righteousness on your side. And you've pointed out there are people who

717
01:00:10,736 --> 01:00:14,276
did wrong things on the other side, and you've pointed out that there are people who are

718
01:00:14,276 --> 01:00:19,916
malicious on the other side. It's still not necessarily sufficient reason to hard fork

719
01:00:19,916 --> 01:00:25,316
Bitcoin and to leave Bitcoin. No, and there's other things that I've heard about this chain,

720
01:00:25,416 --> 01:00:27,516
And I got them semi-explained to me.

721
01:00:27,656 --> 01:00:29,096
I've been in some conversation.

722
01:00:29,276 --> 01:00:34,356
But for the most part, I've just left that whole movement because I'm not that interested.

723
01:00:34,676 --> 01:00:38,316
I'm a happy fence-sitter till anything interesting happens.

724
01:00:38,876 --> 01:00:51,017
But I heard that they have just taken the opportunity to do a lot of other things that Bitcoiners have wanted for a long time especially Luke then of course

725
01:00:51,437 --> 01:00:54,137
But one of them is reducing the block size,

726
01:00:54,257 --> 01:00:57,097
which is something that I've been pro for a long time too.

727
01:00:58,757 --> 01:01:01,377
However, if you do it just by,

728
01:01:01,557 --> 01:01:03,437
I thought that they just did it though.

729
01:01:03,457 --> 01:01:05,317
So Luke made the centralized decision

730
01:01:05,317 --> 01:01:06,397
and then they just did it.

731
01:01:06,477 --> 01:01:08,137
But apparently it was a bit better than that

732
01:01:08,137 --> 01:01:10,397
because they had a Discord vote

733
01:01:10,477 --> 01:01:17,057
a poll on a discord thing yeah but but then again that's not how it's supposed to work either you

734
01:01:17,057 --> 01:01:23,277
you you you suggest uh this tightening of the rules as a soft fork and then either that software

735
01:01:23,277 --> 01:01:28,597
goes through or it doesn't that's how you tighten that's how you make blocks smaller you just don't

736
01:01:29,177 --> 01:01:36,037
like override everyone like that so so while i agree with the with the direction i don't agree

737
01:01:36,037 --> 01:01:42,657
with the method and this is this is sort of where okay this is where i'm out guys i'm not i'm not on

738
01:01:42,657 --> 01:01:47,837
board with this anymore i can't i can't follow along here because while i agree with some of

739
01:01:47,837 --> 01:01:52,757
the principles and the goals you have i do not agree with the way you're trying to get through

740
01:01:52,757 --> 01:02:01,597
them to them which was the principal objection to core v30 like the principal objection to core v30

741
01:02:01,597 --> 01:02:03,937
was look at how you guys are making decisions.

742
01:02:04,217 --> 01:02:07,777
You're opening GitHub for conversation for your friends

743
01:02:07,777 --> 01:02:08,797
and closing it for others.

744
01:02:08,897 --> 01:02:09,477
You're censoring it.

745
01:02:09,597 --> 01:02:13,217
Like, I don't like, I'm objecting to the means

746
01:02:13,217 --> 01:02:14,977
more than to the ends.

747
01:02:16,157 --> 01:02:17,777
You know, the means are what's important.

748
01:02:17,917 --> 01:02:20,057
And so then if you end up hard forking the whole thing

749
01:02:20,057 --> 01:02:22,437
and you're using means that are objectionable

750
01:02:22,437 --> 01:02:25,117
to the same people who were in your movement to begin with,

751
01:02:25,977 --> 01:02:29,137
you've misprioritized your principles.

752
01:02:29,137 --> 01:02:34,057
and it is true that the Blake coin community

753
01:02:34,057 --> 01:02:36,757
is small enough that I suppose you can run it through

754
01:02:36,757 --> 01:02:39,297
and achieve some form of consensus

755
01:02:39,297 --> 01:02:40,477
potentially through a discord

756
01:02:40,477 --> 01:02:42,177
but that speaks to why

757
01:02:42,177 --> 01:02:44,357
but you then have to be humble enough to say

758
01:02:44,357 --> 01:02:47,337
okay and obviously we can't manage Bitcoin

759
01:02:47,337 --> 01:02:48,957
through a discord

760
01:02:48,957 --> 01:02:51,717
with a moderator and everything else

761
01:02:51,717 --> 01:02:53,777
so these things are at different maturities

762
01:02:53,777 --> 01:02:55,617
of decentralization

763
01:02:55,617 --> 01:03:01,017
and for people who are starting a small community

764
01:03:01,017 --> 01:03:04,017
with the goal of making it more decentralized

765
01:03:04,017 --> 01:03:06,977
and achieving Bitcoin level decentralization

766
01:03:06,977 --> 01:03:09,357
at some point in the future, that's fine.

767
01:03:09,717 --> 01:03:11,937
At the same time, there's a lot of declarations

768
01:03:11,937 --> 01:03:15,697
and statements that don't resonate with reality

769
01:03:15,697 --> 01:03:17,397
around like what's the real Bitcoin

770
01:03:17,397 --> 01:03:20,537
and who forked and who didn't fork.

771
01:03:20,537 --> 01:03:24,817
And so I just think it's getting harder and harder

772
01:03:24,817 --> 01:03:28,457
and it's demonstrating how hard it is to hard fork.

773
01:03:29,537 --> 01:03:33,737
Yeah, still one thing that I still believe

774
01:03:33,737 --> 01:03:37,277
is that Core did this to themselves 100%.

775
01:03:37,277 --> 01:03:41,677
Like if they had been smarter about how to roll V30 out

776
01:03:41,677 --> 01:03:43,497
or just not rolled it out at all

777
01:03:43,497 --> 01:03:47,557
because it wasn't that important to change filter policy.

778
01:03:48,197 --> 01:03:50,097
Like why was it so fucking important?

779
01:03:50,097 --> 01:04:13,537
But the thing is, the blind spot for developers, I think, the way I see it, and when I've talked to developers and listened to how they think, is that they only look at the technical perspective and forget that behind every technical decision of what software to run is a person.

780
01:04:13,537 --> 01:04:18,637
And if you do something like this, you will trigger a lot of good people to fork off.

781
01:04:18,757 --> 01:04:20,697
And that's not good for Bitcoin objectively.

782
01:04:21,017 --> 01:04:27,517
So it might look like a good change from your, yeah, if we make the waste paper basket bigger,

783
01:04:27,517 --> 01:04:31,177
then the spam will be less burdensome on the chain.

784
01:04:31,577 --> 01:04:36,437
Yes, but it will also lead to a lot of other second order effects that you just didn't take into account,

785
01:04:36,537 --> 01:04:38,117
even though you were warned about them.

786
01:04:38,217 --> 01:04:39,917
And that's just unforgivable.

787
01:04:39,917 --> 01:05:00,577
So the thing I wish happens, the takeaway I want Bitcoin core developers, the thing I want them to think about going into the future is not how do we make sure that Bitcoin runs as smoothly as possible after observing what happens on chain.

788
01:05:00,677 --> 01:05:02,777
Because I think that's how they work now.

789
01:05:02,897 --> 01:05:07,717
They look at the chain and see what people are doing, and then they adapt to that.

790
01:05:07,717 --> 01:05:10,157
and I think they should have a different

791
01:05:10,157 --> 01:05:12,077
approach. They should have the approach

792
01:05:12,077 --> 01:05:13,717
Bitcoin is money.

793
01:05:14,337 --> 01:05:16,097
How do we incentivize people to

794
01:05:16,097 --> 01:05:18,017
use it as such and not for

795
01:05:18,017 --> 01:05:20,057
this other shit? They have

796
01:05:20,057 --> 01:05:22,097
a slightly wrong view

797
01:05:22,097 --> 01:05:23,617
in my opinion of

798
01:05:23,617 --> 01:05:25,957
what their role is.

799
01:05:26,057 --> 01:05:27,977
Their role is to keep Bitcoin money

800
01:05:27,977 --> 01:05:30,277
not to cater to

801
01:05:30,277 --> 01:05:31,637
shitcoiners' needs.

802
01:05:33,177 --> 01:05:34,537
Maybe I'm too harsh.

803
01:05:35,397 --> 01:05:36,217
I think this was

804
01:05:37,717 --> 01:05:42,037
This was a shakeup for everybody.

805
01:05:42,657 --> 01:05:51,637
And Bitcoin Core was very hardcore about focusing exclusively on technical priorities and technical explanations.

806
01:05:52,917 --> 01:06:05,297
And there was also some behavior that was unprofessional or professional may not be the right word that it was on.

807
01:06:05,297 --> 01:06:08,977
But it was just, it was undiplomatic, maybe.

808
01:06:09,757 --> 01:06:10,077
Sorry?

809
01:06:10,757 --> 01:06:11,357
Undiplomatic.

810
01:06:11,697 --> 01:06:13,037
Yeah, undiplomatic.

811
01:06:13,337 --> 01:06:16,817
So the conversation ended up deteriorating pretty quickly.

812
01:06:16,877 --> 01:06:25,797
And I guess one thing we have to acknowledge is the conversation can deteriorate very quickly when in this decentralized environment and with no official spokespeople.

813
01:06:25,797 --> 01:06:35,337
And so you have various unofficial people saying whatever they want to say and it being interpreted as this is core's position or this is that.

814
01:06:35,337 --> 01:06:40,797
And, you know, so we have to learn something from that.

815
01:06:40,857 --> 01:06:42,957
I'm not exactly sure what we have to learn from it.

816
01:06:43,037 --> 01:06:43,237
Right.

817
01:06:43,297 --> 01:06:54,137
But it's like nobody's an official spokesperson for, you know, for any party here other than themselves in a truly decentralized space.

818
01:06:54,137 --> 01:07:02,797
there's no question that if core hadn't been so hardcore about this that things could have been

819
01:07:02,797 --> 01:07:08,617
calmed down um i don't know if we still would have ended up in the same place but you know this no

820
01:07:08,617 --> 01:07:13,137
there was at one point something that they did back down on which was to deprecate the ability

821
01:07:13,137 --> 01:07:21,937
to set your op return filter um all together they wanted to you know remove that functionality

822
01:07:21,937 --> 01:07:24,037
functionality from Bitcoin core.

823
01:07:24,537 --> 01:07:28,517
And that created a bunch of backlash, which they did step back from.

824
01:07:29,137 --> 01:07:35,717
So I do feel like a lot of this is now kind of water under the bridge and we have to watch

825
01:07:35,717 --> 01:07:39,237
the current events play out as they play out.

826
01:07:39,317 --> 01:07:45,297
But there's something to be said for developers recognizing what the second order effects of

827
01:07:45,297 --> 01:07:50,557
their unpopular decisions might be, irrespective of whether they're technically correct.

828
01:07:50,557 --> 01:07:55,677
then I wouldn't therefore say the developer should do something that's technically incorrect

829
01:07:55,677 --> 01:08:00,757
because it's unpopular, because then we'll end up in a really bad place.

830
01:08:00,837 --> 01:08:05,737
We'll end up with a technically dysfunctional Bitcoin that won a popularity context.

831
01:08:06,397 --> 01:08:08,717
I'm not asking for that at all.

832
01:08:08,857 --> 01:08:12,957
I'm just saying that maybe refrain from things that aren't that important.

833
01:08:13,397 --> 01:08:16,697
So what's the human lesson we learn here?

834
01:08:16,697 --> 01:08:24,857
people's egos are so hung up on them being right that they're prepared to take an extreme position

835
01:08:24,857 --> 01:08:33,477
that's out of proportion to what's reasonable in order to not admit being wrong. And you've got

836
01:08:33,477 --> 01:08:43,037
that in core, not admitting that there's a reason to be concerned about opening up more space for

837
01:08:43,037 --> 01:08:49,117
op return by default even though it was doable because of the libre relay and then you've got

838
01:08:49,117 --> 01:08:55,677
what to me is an even much more drastic example in hard forking bitcoin over this

839
01:08:55,677 --> 01:09:03,537
yeah it's it's lucky lucky luckily for bitcoin they have people like you and i tomer who are

840
01:09:03,537 --> 01:09:09,417
not afraid of of saying when we were wrong i mean i i mean i was wrong i've been wrong several times

841
01:09:09,417 --> 01:09:12,937
1986, for instance, I was wrong about a thing or two.

842
01:09:13,557 --> 01:09:14,137
In 96?

843
01:09:15,197 --> 01:09:16,317
86, yes.

844
01:09:16,537 --> 01:09:16,877
86?

845
01:09:17,297 --> 01:09:17,477
Oh.

846
01:09:18,817 --> 01:09:20,277
What happened in 86?

847
01:09:20,877 --> 01:09:22,157
I can't remember.

848
01:09:22,397 --> 01:09:24,937
And I think I was proven right in hindsight, but yeah.

849
01:09:24,937 --> 01:09:26,257
Yeah.

850
01:09:26,269 --> 01:09:35,809
jokes aside uh no i i i do want to keep questioning myself because i know i'm not

851
01:09:35,809 --> 01:09:39,449
right about everything and i know it's uncomfortable to admit that you're wrong but

852
01:09:39,449 --> 01:09:46,029
it's necessary because until you do you know you're wrong you're pretending that you're not

853
01:09:46,029 --> 01:09:51,449
you're suffering the consequences of continuously acting as though you didn't know that it was wrong

854
01:09:51,449 --> 01:09:55,989
and so you're still making mistakes and you know you're making mistakes it's like stop hurting

855
01:09:55,989 --> 01:09:57,389
Stop punching yourself already.

856
01:09:57,729 --> 01:10:03,009
Just admit that you're wrong and eat a slice of humble pie and move on.

857
01:10:03,129 --> 01:10:09,189
And for people who won't forgive you for being wrong, then accept that there are people who won't forgive you for being wrong.

858
01:10:09,189 --> 01:10:21,929
And for people who say, that's okay, we all make mistakes, you can re-engage in dialogue with them in which you're not defending your position that you know you're wrong about.

859
01:10:22,749 --> 01:10:23,889
It should be easy.

860
01:10:24,549 --> 01:10:24,629
Yeah.

861
01:10:24,929 --> 01:10:25,289
It is.

862
01:10:25,289 --> 01:10:26,789
I acknowledge it's not easy.

863
01:10:27,209 --> 01:10:31,349
I'd say the thing I was most wrong about this soft fork

864
01:10:31,349 --> 01:10:33,889
is its chances of success.

865
01:10:34,269 --> 01:10:37,289
I thought it had a bit higher chance of success,

866
01:10:38,109 --> 01:10:41,189
but that's not why I was pro the fork.

867
01:10:41,289 --> 01:10:44,369
I was pro the fork for other reasons.

868
01:10:44,729 --> 01:10:47,629
I thought it was the more ethical way to move forward,

869
01:10:47,769 --> 01:10:51,169
and I think it was such what Mechanic called

870
01:10:51,169 --> 01:10:52,649
the milk chocolate soft fork.

871
01:10:52,729 --> 01:10:53,969
It didn't do very much,

872
01:10:53,969 --> 01:10:57,249
and it would have sent a clear signal to the developers

873
01:10:57,249 --> 01:10:58,449
that they're not in charge.

874
01:10:59,149 --> 01:11:02,069
Now, in hindsight, maybe that was a bad idea

875
01:11:02,069 --> 01:11:04,809
since it didn't prove that.

876
01:11:04,969 --> 01:11:09,169
It sort of alluded to maybe we think we have more power

877
01:11:09,169 --> 01:11:13,049
than we do have, which was probably a bad thing.

878
01:11:13,909 --> 01:11:20,169
So, yeah, but I'd say the trick is,

879
01:11:20,369 --> 01:11:22,069
that's the point I want to get to.

880
01:11:22,069 --> 01:11:28,809
The trick is to be able to admit that you were wrong and still move through life with no regrets.

881
01:11:30,309 --> 01:11:32,869
I'd say that's a good thing to aim for.

882
01:11:33,449 --> 01:11:33,589
Sure.

883
01:11:33,949 --> 01:11:39,929
And I think that there's a reflection to be had because like when you're inside the ring, you have a different perspective than when you're outside the ring.

884
01:11:40,349 --> 01:11:46,229
But to the spectators, it's not, oh, I guess plebs don't have the power that they thought they had.

885
01:11:46,229 --> 01:11:56,729
It's like this group of people fighting over this issue that's a milk chocolate issue don't have the power that they think that they're not going to move the community over a milk chocolate issue.

886
01:11:57,589 --> 01:11:58,669
Which isn't that big.

887
01:11:58,849 --> 01:12:04,729
Like when you look at it that way and you say like, why didn't you all come with me for a cup of milk chocolate?

888
01:12:05,029 --> 01:12:07,269
It's like, we got our own lives to lead.

889
01:12:07,269 --> 01:12:13,869
We're not, we're not having a constitutional referendum over, over chocolate milk and a

890
01:12:13,869 --> 01:12:16,329
constitutional reform and a big rebellion over it.

891
01:12:16,329 --> 01:12:21,629
And that I, that I think was the, truly the overwhelming majority of people who even managed

892
01:12:21,629 --> 01:12:22,569
to hear about it.

893
01:12:22,569 --> 01:12:22,969
Right.

894
01:12:23,349 --> 01:12:27,589
They were like, this isn't, this isn't that big a deal for me.

895
01:12:27,869 --> 01:12:29,789
This, this isn't existential.

896
01:12:29,789 --> 01:12:37,429
technical people, financially invested people all hold this point of view. So to the degree

897
01:12:37,429 --> 01:12:42,569
that I'm delegating to their opinion, some of this, and this was misinterpreted as, or interpreted

898
01:12:42,569 --> 01:12:48,769
as this is big Bitcoin telling you what to do with, with Bitcoin. It's like this, this was not

899
01:12:48,769 --> 01:12:55,449
that, this was not that big an issue. And it had to be, it had to be puffed up and inflated to be

900
01:12:55,449 --> 01:13:01,809
a big issue in the eyes of those who were on side with this in order to hold water.

901
01:13:01,809 --> 01:13:14,149
But that was based on a lot of like circumstantial evidence or difficult to connect ideas.

902
01:13:14,149 --> 01:13:16,809
yeah

903
01:13:16,809 --> 01:13:23,409
I still think there's

904
01:13:23,409 --> 01:13:25,549
there's something there

905
01:13:25,549 --> 01:13:27,349
I lost my train of thought here

906
01:13:27,349 --> 01:13:35,049
yeah I can't think of it

907
01:13:35,049 --> 01:13:35,489
that's okay

908
01:13:35,489 --> 01:13:38,829
I think there's a lot of ad hominem

909
01:13:38,829 --> 01:13:41,109
in this debate right like this person's a bad

910
01:13:41,109 --> 01:13:43,049
person this person did this thing this person

911
01:13:43,049 --> 01:13:43,549
Yeah.

912
01:13:43,549 --> 01:13:46,409
That thing, they're on this side, therefore this side is wrong.

913
01:13:48,629 --> 01:13:55,649
That, that I think was a big part of the rhetoric that got a lot of people, um,

914
01:13:57,489 --> 01:14:05,109
I got a lot of people confused and got a lot of people to be not supportive of, of the fork.

915
01:14:05,109 --> 01:14:08,069
It's like, there's a lot of attack, you know, and it's not that there weren't

916
01:14:08,069 --> 01:14:13,009
attacks of people on both sides, but again, he who is proposing the change has to make

917
01:14:13,009 --> 01:14:17,109
the case for the change and the case for the change can't just be the person who's opposed

918
01:14:17,109 --> 01:14:19,769
to the change had an email with Jeffrey Epstein.

919
01:14:20,429 --> 01:14:20,749
No, no.

920
01:14:21,209 --> 01:14:21,689
Okay.

921
01:14:21,909 --> 01:14:27,689
Back to the thing I was thinking about there, because the reason there wasn't a user rejected

922
01:14:27,689 --> 01:14:39,529
software and like the vast majority, you say that they delegated the decision to bigger

923
01:14:39,529 --> 01:14:40,049
actors.

924
01:14:40,049 --> 01:14:43,449
but what they really did was that they didn't care

925
01:14:43,449 --> 01:14:47,649
because if BIP-110 hadn't failed,

926
01:14:47,809 --> 01:14:48,969
they wouldn't have cared either.

927
01:14:49,109 --> 01:14:51,089
They would just have, okay, now this is consensus

928
01:14:51,089 --> 01:14:52,309
and they would have moved on

929
01:14:52,309 --> 01:14:54,769
because there was never a user rejected software.

930
01:14:55,409 --> 01:14:57,589
So they were neutral in the sense that,

931
01:14:58,129 --> 01:14:59,709
okay, I'm going to let others decide.

932
01:15:00,189 --> 01:15:04,989
But the BIP-110 view of that was that since they're neutral,

933
01:15:05,149 --> 01:15:07,969
they're not against us, therefore they're with us somehow.

934
01:15:08,149 --> 01:15:09,409
But that's not entirely true.

935
01:15:10,049 --> 01:15:11,389
It's technically incorrect.

936
01:15:11,729 --> 01:15:12,729
Yeah, it is.

937
01:15:12,729 --> 01:15:14,589
It's technologically incorrect, right?

938
01:15:14,609 --> 01:15:14,829
Yeah.

939
01:15:16,389 --> 01:15:24,349
You need them, in order to have, like a soft fork thing isn't an election where everyone casts their ballot.

940
01:15:24,609 --> 01:15:28,429
It's like, it's very, very different.

941
01:15:28,609 --> 01:15:36,729
But even just participation in it, it's like you need hash rate and you need nodes to, you know, to make the move.

942
01:15:36,729 --> 01:16:04,993
The way I see it like let me see if you disagree with this view because I want to know how correct I am So in order for miners to have to care about the proposed user activated soft fork they will have to be scared enough because of the potential lost fees from the transactions that would have gone through those nodes or to those users

943
01:16:05,773 --> 01:16:05,893
Yeah.

944
01:16:05,893 --> 01:16:15,113
And since these were mostly 5,000 newly fired up nodes, I mean, mechanics said so all the time about that.

945
01:16:15,113 --> 01:16:18,913
The Start9 has seen record sales numbers and Umbral too.

946
01:16:19,713 --> 01:16:35,393
So if I was a miner, I would have made the, like, especially if I was a fiat-minded miner, I would have just made the decision, okay, those 5,000 new nodes, there's no, I have nothing to lose from just ignoring them because there's no activity on them.

947
01:16:35,893 --> 01:16:45,093
and i have to weigh that decision against uh the other decision which is a how much can i

948
01:16:45,093 --> 01:16:52,293
gain from from actually mining spam which i think is a small thing the other is just uh yeah i talked

949
01:16:52,293 --> 01:16:57,973
to giacomo about this this morning inertia like that you yeah it it takes some effort to change

950
01:16:57,973 --> 01:17:06,733
your software uh yeah and also the third one is uh yeah your your social status with with big

951
01:17:06,733 --> 01:17:11,493
players in the game like if you're a big mining pool maybe you want to have good relations with

952
01:17:11,493 --> 01:17:18,093
michael saylor and adam back so so maybe that's worth something too so it's you also to me it's

953
01:17:18,093 --> 01:17:23,333
not like right you don't want to end up a minority chain that turns out to be a hard

954
01:17:23,333 --> 01:17:25,713
No, no, absolutely not.

955
01:17:26,773 --> 01:17:29,853
Yeah, I think they underestimated all this.

956
01:17:30,033 --> 01:17:35,853
And I don't, a Blake 2B person would say that, yeah, but that's proof of capture.

957
01:17:36,033 --> 01:17:38,833
If the miners can do that, that means they're all captured.

958
01:17:39,353 --> 01:17:43,693
But I don't think that's 100% either way.

959
01:17:43,873 --> 01:17:46,533
Like, I think that's, yeah, maybe it's not optimal.

960
01:17:46,533 --> 01:17:50,053
Yeah, miners are captured by the consensus rules.

961
01:17:50,053 --> 01:17:54,353
and it takes a lot to release their capture.

962
01:17:54,433 --> 01:17:56,493
And we want them captured by the consensus rules,

963
01:17:56,613 --> 01:17:59,133
except for those of us who want to change the consensus rules.

964
01:17:59,133 --> 01:18:01,673
But it's a feature, not a bug in Bitcoin,

965
01:18:01,813 --> 01:18:04,453
that it's very fucking hard to change the consensus rules.

966
01:18:04,653 --> 01:18:07,413
So we're going to get, like, even, like,

967
01:18:07,593 --> 01:18:10,713
it's harder for a hard fork than it is for a soft fork,

968
01:18:10,873 --> 01:18:13,333
but a soft fork is very, very hard too.

969
01:18:13,433 --> 01:18:15,413
You need all the miners enforcing it

970
01:18:15,413 --> 01:18:18,473
because what happens in these soft forks is,

971
01:18:18,473 --> 01:18:24,793
like there's different flavors of soft fork, I suppose. But if you as a miner are enforcing the

972
01:18:24,793 --> 01:18:30,193
soft fork on other miners, then, and you're in a minority of the hash rate, then you're going to

973
01:18:30,193 --> 01:18:35,053
end up forked off. And that's actually what happened after the first two blocks of, you know,

974
01:18:35,173 --> 01:18:41,653
of BIP 110 coin, you just, you fall behind. So your backwards compatibility is irrelevant because

975
01:18:41,653 --> 01:18:48,073
nobody's building on your coins and you've lost your reward. So you need to, you need to believe

976
01:18:48,073 --> 01:18:50,553
not just that the cause is just,

977
01:18:50,753 --> 01:18:52,273
you need to believe that there will be

978
01:18:52,273 --> 01:18:53,713
a majority hash rate

979
01:18:53,713 --> 01:18:56,033
within a relatively short period of time.

980
01:18:56,173 --> 01:19:00,013
That's a lesson that people learn from this.

981
01:19:01,173 --> 01:19:04,713
And so in order for you to believe,

982
01:19:04,973 --> 01:19:06,553
like what needs to be true for you to believe

983
01:19:06,553 --> 01:19:09,113
as a miner that a majority of the hash rate

984
01:19:09,113 --> 01:19:11,113
will go there if you don't control

985
01:19:11,113 --> 01:19:12,153
a majority of the hash rate,

986
01:19:12,353 --> 01:19:14,753
it's some other signaling from some other of the miners.

987
01:19:15,093 --> 01:19:17,753
And that's why you have this signaling period thing.

988
01:19:17,753 --> 01:19:33,773
That signaling period activation method got hijacked in 2017 when the miners were meant to signal to activate it because CORE and the community and everybody else was in favor of SegWit and they didn't.

989
01:19:33,893 --> 01:19:40,113
So that, and they didn't because it turns out they had, you know, covert ASIC boost.

990
01:19:40,553 --> 01:19:42,993
For people who don't know what this is, don't worry about it.

991
01:19:43,073 --> 01:19:43,793
Yeah, look it up.

992
01:19:43,793 --> 01:19:50,153
But in this case, it was the miners didn't signal because there wasn't enough support.

993
01:19:50,993 --> 01:19:59,133
And that's what was very hard, I think, for the people who were in favor of this thing to come across.

994
01:19:59,373 --> 01:20:04,573
And some of the support wasn't there because of FUD that was illegitimate.

995
01:20:04,713 --> 01:20:07,093
And some of it wasn't there because it was too milquetoast.

996
01:20:07,193 --> 01:20:10,753
And some of it wasn't there because people in principle didn't agree with it.

997
01:20:10,753 --> 01:20:12,173
But it wasn't there.

998
01:20:12,173 --> 01:20:22,953
And that's why the fork didn't activate when it did with sufficient hash rate to become the new rule set.

999
01:20:23,693 --> 01:20:25,233
And that just is.

1000
01:20:26,573 --> 01:20:29,033
Whether you like it or not, it is.

1001
01:20:29,193 --> 01:20:31,713
But it doesn't mean that the miners are captured by big Bitcoin.

1002
01:20:32,513 --> 01:20:38,153
It means that they weren't persuaded by the Bit.1.10 movement that the Bit.1.10 would be active.

1003
01:20:38,153 --> 01:20:40,933
and it becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy

1004
01:20:40,933 --> 01:20:42,633
in either direction where this thing goes.

1005
01:20:42,913 --> 01:20:44,793
If they're convinced that it's going to activate,

1006
01:20:44,913 --> 01:20:46,813
they're going to mine in favor of it,

1007
01:20:46,853 --> 01:20:48,693
which will lead to it being activated.

1008
01:20:49,053 --> 01:20:51,013
And if they're not convinced that it will activate,

1009
01:20:51,153 --> 01:20:52,113
then they're not going to mine for it,

1010
01:20:52,133 --> 01:20:53,573
which will lead to it not being activated.

1011
01:20:54,233 --> 01:20:56,013
They're captured by the community.

1012
01:20:57,013 --> 01:21:01,093
Yeah, I still think that this falling dominoes,

1013
01:21:01,093 --> 01:21:04,953
you know, scenario, the prisoner's dilemma thing,

1014
01:21:05,193 --> 01:21:07,073
it is true at a certain threshold.

1015
01:21:07,073 --> 01:21:11,653
if the mining pool thinks that the other miner is going to signal,

1016
01:21:11,813 --> 01:21:13,173
then they might as well just signal.

1017
01:21:13,473 --> 01:21:14,933
And there is a point.

1018
01:21:15,153 --> 01:21:19,133
It's not like you don't need 50% for that scenario to play out.

1019
01:21:19,793 --> 01:21:21,633
So it is easier.

1020
01:21:21,633 --> 01:21:22,933
You need some momentum.

1021
01:21:23,173 --> 01:21:24,153
Yeah, you need some momentum.

1022
01:21:24,373 --> 01:21:26,093
You need more than we had, basically.

1023
01:21:26,653 --> 01:21:29,953
And it's impossible to say exactly how much you need

1024
01:21:29,953 --> 01:21:31,653
because it's not an exact number.

1025
01:21:31,753 --> 01:21:33,553
It depends on its situational.

1026
01:21:34,173 --> 01:21:35,913
31.4%.

1027
01:21:35,913 --> 01:21:44,313
Of course, but yeah, it's great that hard forks are almost impossible to do.

1028
01:21:44,493 --> 01:21:48,933
Soft forks are harder to do, but a little less impossible, meaning that

1029
01:21:48,933 --> 01:22:07,577
Bitcoin consensus rules are somewhat less hard to tighten than to open up And that exactly how we want how we want Bitcoin the nature this is part of what so brilliant about the nature and whether Satoshi was a genius beyond our comprehension

1030
01:22:07,577 --> 01:22:13,157
or built something with such integrity that there were so many capabilities

1031
01:22:13,157 --> 01:22:16,777
built into it that weren't perceptible at first,

1032
01:22:16,777 --> 01:22:25,277
but turned out to be emergent attributes of a really well-integrated engineering process

1033
01:22:25,277 --> 01:22:31,557
or something more profound than that even, or he just got extremely lucky.

1034
01:22:32,117 --> 01:22:39,517
But the nature of the design of Bitcoin really is super high integrity and super hard to damage or destroy.

1035
01:22:40,057 --> 01:22:45,237
To do a hard fork, you need everyone's consensus who's participating in the hard fork.

1036
01:22:45,237 --> 01:22:50,057
to do a soft fork. And he didn't even create this thing with the notion of, okay, we're going to do

1037
01:22:50,057 --> 01:22:55,157
soft forks and hard forks. Or we're going to have Blake coin or not, or we're going to have

1038
01:22:55,157 --> 01:23:00,937
lightning or elements or not. None of this was envisioned. It was just building this really tight

1039
01:23:00,937 --> 01:23:08,137
system that has all of this integrity between proof of work and how hash functions. There's

1040
01:23:08,137 --> 01:23:12,437
just such a deep understanding of how hash functions work to use it simultaneously for

1041
01:23:12,437 --> 01:23:18,817
proof of work and for address identification and in Merkle trees and in block headers and

1042
01:23:18,817 --> 01:23:27,697
then to create its own currency and completely sever it from and have it be completely self-standing,

1043
01:23:27,697 --> 01:23:29,517
not attached to any other.

1044
01:23:29,517 --> 01:23:35,677
The only other system in the world that it connects to, the only other standard is clocks

1045
01:23:35,677 --> 01:23:39,157
and there's a block time and even then it's not very hardcore about it.

1046
01:23:39,157 --> 01:23:42,997
He says, well, as far as I'm concerned, time is the median of the last six blocks.

1047
01:23:42,997 --> 01:23:45,977
It's not what time stamp is on the block.

1048
01:23:46,177 --> 01:23:48,237
It's the last six blocks.

1049
01:23:48,657 --> 01:23:56,157
Take out the top three, the bottom three, and the one that you have in the middle is actually the time as I'm going to use it.

1050
01:23:56,417 --> 01:23:59,937
And I'm only going to use it for the one sake of the difficulty adjustment algorithm.

1051
01:24:00,277 --> 01:24:08,237
Other than that, I've got nothing else that's connected to the banking institutions, to government, to anything really.

1052
01:24:08,237 --> 01:24:29,237
So to have built something that's so standalone and then to address how it needs to come into the world, the coins need to be distributed. Well, to whom? Those who do proof of work. At what rate? According to the block discovery schedule and the halving algorithm.

1053
01:24:29,237 --> 01:24:32,777
algorithm and how, you know, and how, how do you have identity?

1054
01:24:32,777 --> 01:24:35,417
We're not going to have government as an identity system.

1055
01:24:35,717 --> 01:24:38,297
You don't show your driver's license or your social insurance number,

1056
01:24:38,297 --> 01:24:41,337
anyone in the world, anytime countries that don't exist yet.

1057
01:24:41,357 --> 01:24:43,577
People there can participate, people who haven't been born.

1058
01:24:44,637 --> 01:24:46,997
You generate entropy and your entropy is your identity.

1059
01:24:47,297 --> 01:24:48,797
Cause anyone can generate entropy.

1060
01:24:48,797 --> 01:24:53,197
Like, so this whole thing, you know, and so people generating entropy, doing

1061
01:24:53,197 --> 01:24:56,897
proof of work, distributing the coins, spending the coins, the whole system is

1062
01:24:56,897 --> 01:25:00,657
so self-standing and then that it's impervious to change.

1063
01:25:00,977 --> 01:25:02,397
Now, Satoshi did realize this.

1064
01:25:02,397 --> 01:25:06,197
He has that one famous quote about ever since version point one was released, the

1065
01:25:06,197 --> 01:25:08,637
rules have been essentially carved in stone.

1066
01:25:08,717 --> 01:25:13,337
That's a paraphrasing from memory, but it's a close, I think it's a pretty close

1067
01:25:13,457 --> 01:25:16,417
statement to what he wrote.

1068
01:25:16,977 --> 01:25:21,517
And so he could see, he could see that, but essentially carved in stone, right?

1069
01:25:21,517 --> 01:25:23,877
The word essentially does some heavy lifting there.

1070
01:25:23,877 --> 01:25:32,337
And, and so we've got this incredible system and I understand people want to make it better.

1071
01:25:34,437 --> 01:25:37,017
But what's so good about it is that you can't change it.

1072
01:25:37,637 --> 01:25:45,057
So make it, making it better by changing it is usually making it worse by design and be very

1073
01:25:45,057 --> 01:25:49,977
careful when you start down that road of good intentions to make something better.

1074
01:25:49,977 --> 01:25:53,037
there's always going to be opportunity.

1075
01:25:53,197 --> 01:25:55,677
Like even with, we fought for SegWit.

1076
01:25:56,037 --> 01:25:58,257
We got SegWit in the block size wars.

1077
01:25:58,877 --> 01:26:02,997
In hindsight, maybe we didn't need it.

1078
01:26:03,497 --> 01:26:07,017
Maybe we should have just kept one megabyte block size

1079
01:26:07,017 --> 01:26:10,457
because one of the side effects was the inscriptions,

1080
01:26:10,577 --> 01:26:11,797
which started off this whole thing,

1081
01:26:11,837 --> 01:26:13,037
which led to this whole hard fork.

1082
01:26:13,717 --> 01:26:16,277
Yeah, I've thought of that so much.

1083
01:26:16,277 --> 01:26:18,157
and like I'd prefer

1084
01:26:18,157 --> 01:26:19,557
like if

1085
01:26:19,557 --> 01:26:20,637
we thought we won a war

1086
01:26:20,637 --> 01:26:22,737
but it was an own goal

1087
01:26:22,737 --> 01:26:25,557
if this own goal is

1088
01:26:25,557 --> 01:26:27,157
detrimental then

1089
01:26:27,157 --> 01:26:30,077
Bitcoin would have been better off without the Lightning Network

1090
01:26:30,077 --> 01:26:31,097
like that's not

1091
01:26:31,097 --> 01:26:33,037
I don't

1092
01:26:33,037 --> 01:26:34,997
believe that

1093
01:26:34,997 --> 01:26:37,857
it wasn't the only way to get the Lightning Network

1094
01:26:37,857 --> 01:26:39,117
it turned out that

1095
01:26:39,117 --> 01:26:41,837
there were other ways to potentially implement

1096
01:26:41,837 --> 01:26:43,697
the Lightning Network maybe with a compromise

1097
01:26:43,697 --> 01:26:45,257
here or a compromise there but

1098
01:26:45,257 --> 01:26:48,357
we thought we had to fix a malleability bug

1099
01:26:48,357 --> 01:26:49,897
but we added block space

1100
01:26:49,897 --> 01:26:51,237
and we added a witness discount

1101
01:26:51,237 --> 01:26:52,757
and it's like wait wait wait

1102
01:26:52,757 --> 01:26:54,257
if we want the lightning network

1103
01:26:54,257 --> 01:26:55,977
let's fix the malleability bug

1104
01:26:55,977 --> 01:26:59,817
why do we have to add the block size increase

1105
01:26:59,817 --> 01:27:00,877
and the discount

1106
01:27:00,877 --> 01:27:02,217
no there was a lot of compromise

1107
01:27:02,217 --> 01:27:04,477
with the big blockers

1108
01:27:04,477 --> 01:27:07,417
so no

1109
01:27:07,417 --> 01:27:09,677
but you can always be kept in hindsight

1110
01:27:09,677 --> 01:27:10,077
right

1111
01:27:10,077 --> 01:27:13,057
I think taproot was an even bigger mistake

1112
01:27:13,057 --> 01:27:14,637
because it's not at all being used

1113
01:27:14,637 --> 01:27:15,857
for what it was intended for.

1114
01:27:15,877 --> 01:27:16,197
Yes.

1115
01:27:16,277 --> 01:27:17,797
And adding programmability.

1116
01:27:18,057 --> 01:27:19,657
I actually think we should have known it,

1117
01:27:19,657 --> 01:27:23,657
but we were all in such awe and worship

1118
01:27:23,657 --> 01:27:26,077
of Bitcoin Core developers at the time

1119
01:27:26,077 --> 01:27:26,517
that we said,

1120
01:27:26,757 --> 01:27:27,997
although nobody can provide

1121
01:27:27,997 --> 01:27:29,157
a really good explanation

1122
01:27:29,157 --> 01:27:31,217
of what an abstract,

1123
01:27:31,757 --> 01:27:33,477
merkelized tree,

1124
01:27:34,317 --> 01:27:37,617
master, merkelized abstract syntax tree

1125
01:27:37,617 --> 01:27:38,817
is actually doing,

1126
01:27:38,897 --> 01:27:40,177
and there's no wallet implementation

1127
01:27:40,177 --> 01:27:42,317
and certainly not anything nearly as big

1128
01:27:42,317 --> 01:27:45,257
as the Lightning Network.

1129
01:27:45,497 --> 01:27:48,057
We're going to do it because it's been a bunch of years since we've done it,

1130
01:27:48,097 --> 01:27:50,017
but let's fight over how we activate it.

1131
01:27:50,617 --> 01:27:54,177
Speed trial, user-activated software, this, that, the other.

1132
01:27:54,397 --> 01:27:58,977
So we completely failed to say, is it practical that it's going to be used?

1133
01:27:58,977 --> 01:28:03,657
Or we're afraid of saying, it doesn't seem like it's going to get used.

1134
01:28:04,337 --> 01:28:18,461
Maybe we should wait until we actually got some real good privacy features and some prototype wallets using it Anyhow hindsight Captain hindsight again here uh to tell you what you should have

1135
01:28:18,461 --> 01:28:21,621
done with the, with the benefit of hindsight, what is, is what happened,

1136
01:28:21,621 --> 01:28:26,101
happened. It's like, you can't change it. It's immallible. It's in the blockchain

1137
01:28:26,101 --> 01:28:31,421
now, and it's in the rule set now and to deactivate it requires hard fork

1138
01:28:31,721 --> 01:28:34,181
rather than soft fork. So it's there.

1139
01:28:34,181 --> 01:28:36,081
Which is probably much worse.

1140
01:28:36,481 --> 01:28:41,601
And the thing that sold me on Taproot was the privacy.

1141
01:28:42,281 --> 01:28:45,961
The privacy transaction would be easier.

1142
01:28:46,161 --> 01:28:49,061
But still, it's mostly being used for shit.

1143
01:28:49,381 --> 01:28:55,941
So in hindsight, I wish we would have treaded more lightly and waited a bit.

1144
01:28:56,581 --> 01:28:58,901
Wait until we figured out the actual privacy.

1145
01:28:59,181 --> 01:28:59,461
Exactly.

1146
01:29:00,221 --> 01:29:03,201
But regardless, these are all hypotheticals.

1147
01:29:03,201 --> 01:29:05,661
like we live in the timeline we live in.

1148
01:29:06,261 --> 01:29:09,241
We have to adapt to that.

1149
01:29:10,021 --> 01:29:13,381
And the time chain is still the best representation

1150
01:29:13,381 --> 01:29:15,521
of absolute truth we've ever had.

1151
01:29:16,001 --> 01:29:17,681
And therefore the best form of money.

1152
01:29:18,521 --> 01:29:20,981
And in a way, the saying,

1153
01:29:21,201 --> 01:29:24,281
I just found Bitcoin and I'm here to fix it.

1154
01:29:24,801 --> 01:29:26,981
What people should really take to heart

1155
01:29:26,981 --> 01:29:30,681
is Bitcoin just found me and it's here to fix me.

1156
01:29:30,681 --> 01:29:32,061
that's a much

1157
01:29:32,061 --> 01:29:32,941
sounder way

1158
01:29:32,941 --> 01:29:34,641
to view reality

1159
01:29:34,641 --> 01:29:35,081
I think

1160
01:29:35,081 --> 01:29:36,301
and it's always true

1161
01:29:36,301 --> 01:29:37,721
yeah and let's take it

1162
01:29:37,721 --> 01:29:39,401
because this particular

1163
01:29:39,401 --> 01:29:40,341
fork that

1164
01:29:40,341 --> 01:29:41,481
we've been discussing

1165
01:29:41,481 --> 01:29:42,441
isn't from people

1166
01:29:42,441 --> 01:29:43,261
who just discovered

1167
01:29:43,261 --> 01:29:44,061
Bitcoin and are here

1168
01:29:44,061 --> 01:29:44,561
to change it

1169
01:29:44,561 --> 01:29:45,321
they're from people

1170
01:29:45,321 --> 01:29:46,001
who've been in Bitcoin

1171
01:29:46,001 --> 01:29:47,101
for a really long time

1172
01:29:47,101 --> 01:29:48,381
and have decided

1173
01:29:48,381 --> 01:29:49,081
to change it

1174
01:29:49,081 --> 01:29:51,241
but the same holds true

1175
01:29:51,241 --> 01:29:51,881
you know

1176
01:29:51,881 --> 01:29:53,101
you've been in Bitcoin

1177
01:29:53,101 --> 01:29:54,141
for a really long time

1178
01:29:54,141 --> 01:29:54,901
and it's still

1179
01:29:54,901 --> 01:29:56,241
changing you

1180
01:29:56,241 --> 01:29:57,901
I think the lesson

1181
01:29:57,901 --> 01:29:58,781
it's going to teach

1182
01:29:58,781 --> 01:29:59,121
is

1183
01:29:59,121 --> 01:30:00,201
don't change

1184
01:30:00,681 --> 01:30:01,801
Don't change me.

1185
01:30:02,981 --> 01:30:03,661
Change yourselves.

1186
01:30:05,861 --> 01:30:07,661
Before we close this out,

1187
01:30:08,141 --> 01:30:11,381
we've been going for 90 minutes plus now, I think.

1188
01:30:11,921 --> 01:30:14,441
Is there anything we haven't spoken about yet

1189
01:30:14,441 --> 01:30:15,801
that you wanted to bring up with me?

1190
01:30:16,581 --> 01:30:19,181
No, I mean, I think this was a good conversation.

1191
01:30:19,321 --> 01:30:20,961
It's always a good conversation with you, Knut,

1192
01:30:21,041 --> 01:30:24,041
because we agree enough about enough things,

1193
01:30:24,041 --> 01:30:25,661
but we disagree about enough others

1194
01:30:25,661 --> 01:30:29,321
that there's a good form for communication

1195
01:30:29,321 --> 01:30:33,721
You know, we see things from each of our own perspectives and go at it.

1196
01:30:33,781 --> 01:30:35,161
So I'm really happy with this.

1197
01:30:35,221 --> 01:30:37,021
I'm not doing a lot of podcasts lately.

1198
01:30:37,021 --> 01:30:45,881
I'm doing a lot of personal introspection and personal figuring out what to do with my time.

1199
01:30:46,081 --> 01:30:49,601
I'm actually taking advantage of the independence that Bitcoin has given me.

1200
01:30:49,661 --> 01:30:51,641
It's given me sovereignty, like freedom.

1201
01:30:51,821 --> 01:30:53,621
People say Bitcoin's going to do this for you.

1202
01:30:54,081 --> 01:30:56,061
And then they get their freedom.

1203
01:30:56,061 --> 01:31:02,081
And I think one of the things we struggle with so much, this was especially true for me, it's like, I don't know what to do with freedom.

1204
01:31:02,481 --> 01:31:03,461
I haven't been free.

1205
01:31:03,541 --> 01:31:08,081
I've been somebody's wage slave for forever, working for their corporation, working for their shareholders.

1206
01:31:08,901 --> 01:31:10,701
What do you do with freedom?

1207
01:31:11,201 --> 01:31:12,581
Do you just go for walks?

1208
01:31:13,101 --> 01:31:16,521
And so figuring out how to enjoy my freedom.

1209
01:31:16,781 --> 01:31:19,761
And one of the, I'll just share, this is a final thought.

1210
01:31:20,821 --> 01:31:25,981
I've had a bunch of these thoughts, so I am now thinking about writing a book, but who reads books?

1211
01:31:26,061 --> 01:31:29,561
But one of these is just be happy with what you have.

1212
01:31:29,561 --> 01:31:32,481
And that's not to say don't be ambitious.

1213
01:31:32,681 --> 01:31:34,781
It's like in the present, you have something.

1214
01:31:35,941 --> 01:31:41,101
It may not be a lot, but I guarantee you that if you work really hard with your

1215
01:31:41,101 --> 01:31:44,981
ambitions and you get what you're after, you'll look back at this time and miss

1216
01:31:44,981 --> 01:31:49,301
this time when you have all this money or busyness or, you know, successful

1217
01:31:49,301 --> 01:31:52,441
business, it's like you'll miss the time when you were less busy.

1218
01:31:52,441 --> 01:32:04,601
You'll miss the time, and depending on one's age who's listening to this, you can think of a time before you had screens available to you, multiple screens, 24-7, everywhere you went.

1219
01:32:05,601 --> 01:32:20,661
And you played sports in the streets, played board games with friends, didn't have Uber delivering food to you, ate what was in the pantry, prepared the food yourself, went for a walk, went for a bike ride.

1220
01:32:20,661 --> 01:32:22,381
and you miss that now.

1221
01:32:22,521 --> 01:32:25,241
And so you should be happy with what you have

1222
01:32:25,241 --> 01:32:26,501
because you'll miss what you have

1223
01:32:26,501 --> 01:32:27,721
when you no longer have it.

1224
01:32:28,041 --> 01:32:31,781
Whether it's because you've gotten poorer in some way

1225
01:32:31,781 --> 01:32:33,241
and you no longer have the luxury that you had,

1226
01:32:33,301 --> 01:32:34,741
but even you've gotten richer

1227
01:32:34,741 --> 01:32:40,001
and you no longer have the comfort of being less rich

1228
01:32:40,001 --> 01:32:42,681
than you had, things will change

1229
01:32:42,681 --> 01:32:44,601
and you'll miss what you had.

1230
01:32:44,721 --> 01:32:46,941
So just be happy with what you have.

1231
01:32:46,941 --> 01:32:50,221
Focus on enjoying the happiness of what you have

1232
01:32:50,221 --> 01:32:52,961
rather than resenting or regretting what you don't have

1233
01:32:52,961 --> 01:32:53,941
and what you're trying to do.

1234
01:32:54,121 --> 01:32:56,501
And that's not to say don't try to change your situation

1235
01:32:56,501 --> 01:32:57,681
for what you think is better,

1236
01:32:58,081 --> 01:32:59,681
but still be happy with what you have.

1237
01:33:00,721 --> 01:33:01,921
That's my favorite words.

1238
01:33:02,561 --> 01:33:05,801
Those are beautiful words and they resonate deeply with me.

1239
01:33:06,101 --> 01:33:09,821
It's very close to this notion of that which you can do without your own,

1240
01:33:10,861 --> 01:33:14,441
but also enjoy what you have, enjoy the moment.

1241
01:33:15,321 --> 01:33:17,101
Life is what happens right now.

1242
01:33:17,261 --> 01:33:18,861
It's not what happens in the future.

1243
01:33:18,861 --> 01:33:20,201
It's not what you had in the past.

1244
01:33:20,301 --> 01:33:24,321
It's this tiny, tiny intersection between the past and the future.

1245
01:33:24,481 --> 01:33:26,241
That's everything you'll ever experience.

1246
01:33:26,481 --> 01:33:27,601
And it's always right now.

1247
01:33:27,981 --> 01:33:32,301
So every time you don't enjoy life, you miss that moment, that chance.

1248
01:33:32,401 --> 01:33:33,361
You had to enjoy it.

1249
01:33:34,001 --> 01:33:34,801
Yeah, absolutely.

1250
01:33:35,861 --> 01:33:40,561
And it's hard to do because there's always, I mean, there's lots of people always telling you, you need to be different.

1251
01:33:40,641 --> 01:33:41,341
You need to be better.

1252
01:33:41,461 --> 01:33:42,481
I can make you happier.

1253
01:33:42,841 --> 01:33:44,981
Give me your money and this will be better.

1254
01:33:46,501 --> 01:33:47,721
It's always distractions.

1255
01:33:48,381 --> 01:33:48,561
Yeah.

1256
01:33:48,861 --> 01:33:49,361
Yeah.

1257
01:33:50,201 --> 01:33:50,601
All right.

1258
01:33:51,141 --> 01:33:52,581
That's all I have to say today.

1259
01:33:53,201 --> 01:33:55,041
Tomer, it's an absolute pleasure.

1260
01:33:55,381 --> 01:33:58,101
I'm proud to call myself your friend.

1261
01:33:58,521 --> 01:34:04,761
And we'll catch up every now and then and keep having these conversations.

1262
01:34:04,981 --> 01:34:05,461
I love it.

1263
01:34:05,881 --> 01:34:06,761
So take care.

1264
01:34:07,341 --> 01:34:07,701
You too.

1265
01:34:07,821 --> 01:34:08,161
Take care.

1266
01:34:08,241 --> 01:34:08,481
Bye-bye.

1267
01:34:10,021 --> 01:34:11,901
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

1268
01:34:12,161 --> 01:34:12,921
Thanks for listening.

1269
01:34:18,861 --> 01:34:48,841
Thank you.