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Nick, welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

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Nice to have you here.

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Thanks for having me.

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Great.

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You're the fountain guy.

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And what is fountain?

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Like, I mean, it was quite a while ago we last recorded, I believe, like two years or something, right?

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Something like that.

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So I guess people, enough time has passed to motivate another introduction.

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So please introduce yourself, TLDR on who you are and what you do.

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yeah so i'm nick i'm the co-founder of fountain if you don't know what fountain is the person who

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orange-pilled you didn't do a very good job uh we're a podcast app that is powered by bitcoin so

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we launched the app back in when was it i'd say 2001 and yeah we gave podcasts a a really simple

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solution just to claim their podcast on our app and allowed their listeners to pay payments in

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lightning and so you can find every podcast on fountain and we also have other features we've

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built on top of nostor so things like comments and chats and different social features and we have a

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feed very much like primal or damas you can see all the activity from people you follow so people

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who support podcasts it's a great way to discover new shows and last year we launched hosting as

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well so you can also now publish and distribute your podcast through fountain obviously bitcoin

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infinity shows is one of our customers so that's nice and then also music i haven't mentioned so

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as well as podcasts we also have a collection of music from emerging artists who are publishing

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their music in a self-sovereign way to rss feeds and all of the interactions you would take with the

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podcast i.e zapping or streaming sats or commenting or sharing you can do all those things with music as well

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Yes, fantastic. Yeah, I'm multitasking here because I'm opening Fountain in another tab.

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But I absolutely love Fountain, as you know, and we're on Fountain. We're using a lot of their services.

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My upcoming music album will also be released on Fountain, of course.

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The idea of zapping and being able to promote or to contribute to artists and pod creators directly is very compelling to me, the whole value for value model.

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How is that working legally?

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Has there been a legal pushback?

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Because I know politicians and bureaucrats hate good solutions to things and want to destroy everything good in the world.

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So how is that working out for you?

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To be honest, we haven't had too many problems.

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I guess there's two areas where we could encounter issues.

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First of all would be the payments layer.

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So people trying to block users using Bitcoin for certain things on certain apps.

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Part of that conversation also involves the app stores, particularly the Apple app store.

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I know that some apps that have integrated Lightning Payments have had issues with getting approved by app stores.

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We luckily didn't have any problems there.

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And I guess the second area would be music copyright.

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right. You know, in theory, there's nothing preventing somebody from ripping, you know,

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the Rolling Stones off of YouTube, publishing it on Fountain, putting their own lightning address

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in the splits and trying to monetize somebody else's creative work. But we haven't seen that.

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Maybe people just haven't figured that one out yet. But I suppose that would be treated in the

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same way as it would anywhere else. You know, if you'd done that on Patreon or any other platform

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that allows you to monetize creative work, you know, that there is a formal takedown process

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and think that we would follow. But luckily, we haven't seen that yet.

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Now, there's a lot to be said about that. And I'd like to pick your brain about this,

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because I view copyright laws and intellectual property laws as a product of the 20th century.

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They weren't really needed before the 20th century, because it was hard to make copies

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out of things before the 20th century. And they aren't really needed after the 20th century,

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because it's now trivial to make copies out of anything.

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And the recipe for a thing is not the thing.

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Therefore, and you can't really own information.

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Therefore, copyright laws are very destructive, in my opinion.

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There's a guy from the Mises Institute called Stefan Kinsella

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that has written extensively about this and how much damage these laws really do.

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because if you think of an artist back in the 19th century and before that,

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the only way they could monetize playing music for people, for instance,

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is by touring and maybe selling merch when they're touring.

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A bard in the Middle Ages would go around and play music for people

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and get paid to do that.

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And it's only during the 20th century that records are a thing

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where you can sell music and sell physical vinyl records and physical CDs and cassette

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tapes and whatnot.

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And now after the 20th century, that doesn't work anymore because everyone knows what a

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file is in a computer and it can just be trivially copied in an infinite amount of time.

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So the need for copyright for music sort of disappears anyway.

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I think Fountain and similar things are a very good solution to this

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because it's now up to the creator to fire up a Fountain account

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whenever they create something.

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And if you don't, then, yeah, you don't get a piece of this specific pie.

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But if you do, you can make much more than you would have

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had you only been on more centralized platforms

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such as Spotify and Apple Music and whatnot.

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What are your thoughts around copyright and such?

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Do you have any deeper philosophical thoughts about this?

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No, I think it's become increasingly murky.

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Copyright, particularly in music, served a purpose for a certain era in music history.

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And I think that era has kind of come to an end.

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As you were speaking, I was just thinking about Ed Sheeran's recent legal battle.

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I think it was maybe last year or year before.

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I think the estate of Marvin Gaye were trying to sue him for a track Thinking Out Loud because of

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the chord sequences he used and stuff and in the end he won that legal battle and it was you know

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decided that the music that he produced was decidedly different from the original thing

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that it was claimed that he copied but it's it seems crazy to think that you can copyright a

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chord sequence you know EADG who's to say that somebody can own those four chords in that order

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and that no other songs can be written following that same chord structure.

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That seems wild to me.

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And I think also with the advent of AI and generative AI music,

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it becomes even more confusing, you know.

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You can see how easy it is just to generate music just by saying,

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hey, give me this song in Marvin Gaye's style

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or do me a cover of this song in my own style or whatever.

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And then how does copyright work there?

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because really there should be some sort of trace of the original work that's coming through

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and how is that scanned and then identified and what does that mean for rights holders.

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So I think that a lot of these laws are going to be challenged in the next few years

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as they kind of be revealed to be slightly outdated for the times we're in.

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I think in AI music, the AIs are good at detecting other AIs.

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So an AI can detect if something is AI-generated and that AI is influenced or took its inspiration from, say, Marvin Gaye or an original work, and that they then AIs go around and prosecute or sue people for copyright infringement.

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I've heard of that.

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I haven't done a deep dive in it, but I think the attacks are getting increasingly AI-powered as well.

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and I don't know what the solution to this is

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and how to guard against it

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because AI music, there's nothing original in it.

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Everything you hear in an AI song

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is a product of all the other songs

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that are on the internet, let's say.

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So the AI uses whatever,

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it can never come up with something completely novel.

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And maybe you could argue that humans can't do that either

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because we are influenced by everything else.

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we're influenced by the song of a bird

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or by everything a piston engine who knows So you could say that a human isn original either So where do you draw the line I find these things fascinating to think about

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but it's hard for an autistic first principles guy such as myself

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to think of it as anything else than theft,

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to copyright stuff that is inherently infinitely copyable.

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I mean, I think that that's what makes the Satoshi special,

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a bitcoin is not copyable not because of something on the internet because but because it's a secret

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we keep from each other it's in our heads really whereas a song is not in our heads it's actually

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on the internet in in the form of ones and zeros so yeah any further thoughts yeah well just one

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recent example there's there's a company who they basically make it very very easy to produce ai

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generated podcasts and you can literally churn out you know thousands of episodes it's what's

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it called an inflection point ai or something and there was a story recently about so what they'd

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done is they'd found like the top 50 shows in like history or arts or politics or whatever and

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they'd created these clones of them so the artwork was pretty much the same that the title was i

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think actually exactly the same and things like the description were the same and if you go and

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listen to the episodes, the content is heavily inspired by them. It crosses a line from like,

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you know, they've used that as a reference to they've just basically taken it and reworded,

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restructured, like added like another 10%. And they're producing thousands of these episodes,

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and they're trying to monetize them through ads. And the thinking is, is that somebody who opens

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Fountain or Apple Podcasts or whatever app they're using, is they're going to be searching for that

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show they're going to see that show in the search results and they might actually click on that one

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instead of the the original one like the actual one and when they listen to it obviously that

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counts as an impression they get paid by the advertiser and they're able to then monetize that

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and there's a lot of debate happening right now in podcasting about how these shows that use ai

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to some extent should be labeled and what we can do to like prevent users from being you know it's

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fraud essentially you know you're you're kind of stealing the podcast identity passing it off as

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your own mimicking them and actually monetizing their content without their their permission so

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there's just a lot of interesting stuff happening in this area and i think the next few years are

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going to be decisive in like building a proper legal framework both for things like copyright

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but also even just down to the the sort of ground level of which apps you're using and how we uh how

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we label things how we organize things and how we put guards in front of people who are you know

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accidentally encountering this stuff without realizing and being you know being deceived

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Yeah, the legal framework is one thing, but the other avenue to fight it is a pure technical one, where we write programs and bots to detect AI and fight it or label it, as you say.

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So how is Fountain doing that? How is Fountain making sure that everything is not just AI slop?

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I know there's a small paywall. So if you're a creator on Fountain, you have to pay like a dollar a year or whatever it is. I mean, that helps to a certain extent, I guess. But what other measures are you taking to prevent AI slop?

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yeah so there's there's certain things that we are doing and there's certain things that are

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happening within the ecosystem so the things that we're doing like you mentioned to you know if you

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want to use fountain for hosting publish your podcast distribute it out to all the different

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apps there's no free account some of these other companies like inception point ai which i mentioned

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even some of the main hosting providers give you a free trial and that gives you a window

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opportunity to be able to generate some downloads monetize the podcast before the free trial ends

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And then obviously, once you're making money, you can afford to extend it and start paying for it.

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So whether you're a podcaster, you know, if you're a podcaster, our cheapest plan is $25 a month.

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If you're an artist, the plan is actually only a dollar a month.

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But even just having a dollar there that you have to pay makes it more difficult for agents to be able to create accounts and publish music, you know, fraudulently using AI, using different scripts, etc.

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It doesn't make it impossible, but it definitely makes it harder.

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So that's one thing, like having a paywall as being the protection layer.

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The other is, so how it works behind on the back end is there's, you know, millions of

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podcasts, right?

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Probably 400,000 active podcasts up until, well, very early on, because it was really

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Apple that put podcasting into the mainstream, right?

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And they had their own index of podcasts.

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And what happened was certain other podcast apps like Overcast, et cetera, evolved, developed,

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came to market, and they started using Apple's index.

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And then after a while, Apple decided, hey, this episode over here is against our content policy.

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We're going to take it down.

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So not only did that episode come down from Apple, but it also came down from Overcast and any of the other apps that use that same index as well.

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Which was a problem because it means that Apple was kind of setting the rules for other people's apps.

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So what happened a few years ago is the podcast index was created.

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So it's an open index of podcasts that any app developer can use.

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And Adam Curry and Dave Jones, the guys behind Podcast Index, have spent a lot of time in the last 6 to 12 months building protections because you have these companies like Inception Point AI who are just literally churning out AI-generated content, which is not labeled in any way.

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It's entering into all these apps, including Fountain, and people are being misled.

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particularly if you think about how that could work in fountain it's it's not even just they're

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able to monetize the the the kind of the ai content through the downloads they're generating

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through the ad impressions but they're also able to then claim that show in fountain and start

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start receiving lightning payments for people so they're not just taking money from advertisers but

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they could potentially also be taking money from genuine listeners who want to just support a

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podcast so they have a system now to tag ai generated content it's exactly that it's using

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AI to identify AI. And we're able to then label those episodes as such, or those feeds as such.

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And then those can be, you know, retracted from the index and not displayed in the apps. So again,

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that's not something we're directly doing. But as part of the ecosystem, we're all trying to work

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together to figure out this, figure out this problem together, because it's kind of too big

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for one single person or company to solve on their own, it has to kind of be done at a protocol or

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system level. Yeah, makes sense. So how does Fountain work? I know in the beginning, you could

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just start up the app and you would get one set per minute or something streamed to you when you

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listen to an episode. How does it work now? And what features are the new cool ones and so on and

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so forth? Yeah, things have changed a little bit over the years. So I think it was maybe the summer

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of 2022 when we launched the listen to earn feature which completely went down the storm

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people realized that they could earn bitcoin just for listening to any podcast and the way that it

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would work is that you would be given a rate at random every single day sometimes that rate would

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be zero we can't afford to pay everyone every single day and you would so yeah you say you know

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you'd open the app you'd listen to whatever podcast you were going to choose to listen to

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and then it would say you're going to earn 10 sats a minute for the next hour and then we pay

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that out back to the listeners lightning wallet so fountain has a built-in lightning wallet and the

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way that we were funding that is that we were basically just taking you know when you support

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a podcast on fountain by sending his app or streaming there's fees that are paid on top of

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that we just pull those fees and pay those back to users very early on the amount we were paying

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out was super high like there were people who were getting a thousand sats per minute for like a whole

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hour or something and people posting about it on x being like this is the best thing ever and then

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And I guess over time, you know, we had to become more sophisticated as a business and really think about the model.

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And that quickly became unsustainable, but it also created problems for us.

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You know, we were becoming an app where people just go to earn free money and there's no business model in that.

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But also it kind of dilutes the quality of the overall user base and really takes the focus away from actually the things that we want you to do, which is to create clips or leave comments or share things or build playlists.

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So over the time, we basically brought the reward payouts down a little.

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And then recently, we've actually made the decision that we're not paying out rewards at all anymore, which is, you know, certainly going to be a shame for some people who came to rely on that.

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And maybe that was the main reason they were using Fountain But I like to think that still as an app we offer something as good or you know better or certainly a very different experience to what you would maybe get through Apple or Spotify

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So the things I mentioned is, you know, you can, when you download the app, you have a built-in

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Lightning wallet. You can also create a NOSTA profile or connect an existing NOSTA profile.

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So you can bring your followers from NOSTA with you and you then have the feed. Anyone who sends

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a zap or leaves a comment on an episode, I can see that in my feed. I can click through, I can go

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listen to the episode and I can zap the episode or I can stream stats per minute.

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And we also incorporated things like live streams.

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We have also been working on this group chat feature whereby you can have a group chat for

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a show.

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So it's almost like a signal or telegram style experience for the podcast.

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So there's lots that we're doing to enrich the overall quality, but less of a focus on

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just paying out rewards to listeners where if anything, we're more focused on like how

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can we increase the revenue of the podcasters who are using the platform and building useful

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tools to support that goal.

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yeah and what's on the roadmap what's what's coming up ahead what are

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some upcoming features what can we look forward to in the future

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yeah so like i said we we launched the fountain fountain for podcasters which is our hosting

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products last year and that's going pretty well we're we're extending that all the time so one

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recent thing that we added is support for video well actually we had support for video very early

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on we just add the video to your rss feed it means that listeners on fountain and other apps that read

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the rss feed for video can play video but now we also support video distribution to apple podcast

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as well soon we also have hope to add support for spotify and also youtube as well because

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like my role in the company i spend a lot of time speaking to to podcasters just trying to understand

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what problems are they up against like where are things challenging in terms of like the amount of

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time or how repetitive they are how fiddly they are like basically freeing up more time and energy

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resources for them to be creative and actually work on the podcast rather than in the podcast

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on the detail on the admin and actually you know second to editing and production which is like the

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biggest number one time sink like the second one is actually publishing stuff and then also

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repurposing content clipping any efforts you make to sort of grow the podcast so actually publishing

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directly to YouTube just from, you know, uploading once to Fountain, but also having the video going

238
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to everywhere else you'd want the video to be is a massive time saver. Other things we're looking at,

239
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and yeah, this has really come out of both my conversations with podcasters, but also my own

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experience just working on Fountain and just getting work done is everybody is completely

241
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enamored with the idea of AI agents at the moment. I remember back in January when OpenClaw first

242
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came out I installed it on like a virtual computer started using that for admin work for fountain

243
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there was a massive learning curve but very quickly I sort of figured out okay I can actually

244
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do some basic stuff which is really useful and I tried to give it more complicated tasks and thought

245
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actually it's handling this quite well so I just kept giving it stuff and now I've kind of become

246
00:20:22,795 --> 00:20:27,415
so dependent on it for so many things it is so different from just like opening up a chat gpt

247
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window and asking a question i can actually schedule tasks and organize stuff and it has

248
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all the memory i need to be able to just do anything whenever and so yeah a lot of podcasters

249
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are now using these ai agents increasingly on their podcast i think maybe first through like a

250
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personal or a work lens but then now they're seeing how these things could be applied to their podcast

251
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so we're actually looking at how we can be become slightly more api first in in the product that we

252
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offer for podcasters and actually have an mcp so you can connect fountain to claude or codex or

253
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chat gpt or whatever ai chat agent you have and use that to work on your podcast and i've found

254
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in my own experience that you know i've just been working in codex and claude code on like test

255
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podcasts asking it to do things like find me the best clips from this episode or you know analyze

256
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my data on past performance of these episodes and compare it to this or maybe every day suggest me

257
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like suggest three things we can do to grow the podcast today like a an article we could write a

258
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post we can put out or whatever and i found that there's there's certain limitations there's certain

259
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things that these ai agents can do but there's also lots of things they can't do just because

260
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they weren't really designed to be podcast native they're they're kind of good all-rounder generalist

261
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tools but they're not really built for podcasting so yeah we've spent a lot of time just exploring

262
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this area without the pressure of having to launch something just really trying to understand what's

263
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going on getting into the mind of the podcaster who is using these tools what challenges they're

264
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coming up against and developing things that are just going to save them time but like i said also

265
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free up time for them to to work on the actual podcast rather than the admin behind the scenes

266
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stuff. Yeah, and how much stats do you have on your users and their profiles? Like, how big a

267
00:22:18,595 --> 00:22:26,475
chunk of the fountain users are also on Noster, for instance, like a percentage? I mean, educated

268
00:22:26,475 --> 00:22:33,555
guests will do as an answer. It's been a while since I last checked the data. From memory, I would

269
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say maybe 25% of fountain users has a Noster profile. I wouldn't be able to tell you how many

270
00:22:40,015 --> 00:22:41,695
of those people are actually active on Nostra.

271
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When you download Fountain and start using the app, we ask you just to complete your profile.

272
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And when you do that, we actually create a Nostra profile for you.

273
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So a lot of people have one without necessarily using it.

274
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A lot of people just use Fountain just to listen to podcasts in the regular way.

275
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They're not really doing anything else.

276
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So I'm not sure how many of those accounts will actually be active on Nostra.

277
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And I mean, how many of the accounts never zap anyone anything or don't even use Bitcoin

278
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at all?

279
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yeah probably probably the majority but i think that's that's really what's powerful about this

280
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whole thing is that you can also like use this reframe this as like the percentage of people on

281
00:23:21,595 --> 00:23:25,555
fountain who are zapping or using nostril or whatever but you can also look at that through

282
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the lens of a single podcast let's say if you had you know a thousand regular listeners you only

283
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really need you know five ten percent of those people to be active to actually want to support

284
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you and be on the app that allows them to do that it's you can't expect everyone and everyone in your

285
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listener base to be able to have that desire but also take those steps to actually go out of their

286
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way to use a different app learn a new skill try out a different routine which is to listen to a

287
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podcast leave a comment send a boost really engage with the community side of the podcast because

288
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that's not most people just want to like press play and then put their phone back in their pocket

289
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or start driving, you know?

290
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Yeah, I guess most people don't boost on YouTube

291
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with fiat and such either.

292
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The feature is there.

293
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It's just that most people don't get over the hurdle.

294
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I mean, the hurdle is in a way higher with Bitcoin

295
00:24:17,595 --> 00:24:20,135
because you sort of need to know what a Satoshi is.

296
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But it really isn't.

297
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If you just automatically get all the tools you need

298
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by signing up for Fountain,

299
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then it's really a no-brainer.

300
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But yeah, we can hope we get into more of that as we proceed into the future.

301
00:24:36,275 --> 00:24:40,675
I sometimes call Noster the most beautiful clusterfuck on the internet,

302
00:24:40,815 --> 00:24:46,255
because there's a lot of things that are broken or that were...

303
00:24:46,255 --> 00:24:50,635
People started building something and then never followed up on it and stuff like that.

304
00:24:50,755 --> 00:24:52,595
It's kind of clumsy.

305
00:24:52,995 --> 00:24:53,975
What's the word?

306
00:24:54,315 --> 00:24:56,295
Yeah, clusterfuck is a good word for it.

307
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Like it's not the smoothest experience to fire up a Nostra profile.

308
00:25:01,815 --> 00:25:08,715
And none of the Nostra apps really work smoothly yet, I'd say.

309
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Then again, I love the idea and I love the idea of the unstoppableness of it and all of this.

310
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Of course I do.

311
00:25:14,815 --> 00:25:16,395
It's a great life raft.

312
00:25:16,795 --> 00:25:18,695
What are your thoughts on Nostra in general?

313
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Where do you see it going like in the coming decade?

314
00:25:21,855 --> 00:25:30,355
i think that you know i'm not a technical person i think that i know a lot of developers look at

315
00:25:30,355 --> 00:25:36,215
the nostra specification and they're like wow like the simplicity of the different primitives that

316
00:25:36,215 --> 00:25:41,875
you have there for things like payments identity allow you to build really powerful tools and it's

317
00:25:41,875 --> 00:25:47,195
very very flexible and we've found that you know certain problems that we've had to try and solve

318
00:25:47,195 --> 00:25:48,315
with NOSTA

319
00:25:48,315 --> 00:25:50,435
have been solved.

320
00:25:50,695 --> 00:25:51,615
So one of these things

321
00:25:51,615 --> 00:25:52,635
was cross-app comments.

322
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How can I comment

323
00:25:53,575 --> 00:25:55,215
on a podcast episode

324
00:25:55,215 --> 00:25:55,915
in this app

325
00:25:55,915 --> 00:26:08,453
and have the comment appear in the other app and someone reply to me from there uh you know these things they weren trivial before and now they are the challenge is like really trying to get other

326
00:26:08,453 --> 00:26:13,773
developers to build on that ecosystem and it's very hard because i think any protocol like that

327
00:26:13,773 --> 00:26:19,093
or any ecosystem like that reached reaches some kind of critical mass where it achieves some level

328
00:26:19,093 --> 00:26:24,153
of sorry someone's at the door mate i've got to pause for a second i'll be back in two minutes

329
00:26:24,153 --> 00:26:32,333
no problem i'll take your question from the top again yeah what was i saying i was talking about

330
00:26:32,333 --> 00:26:37,153
nostr as the most beautiful clusterfuck on the internet yeah how do you see what are your

331
00:26:37,153 --> 00:26:42,053
thoughts on it how do you see how do you see nostr evolving over the next 10 years

332
00:26:42,053 --> 00:26:49,573
yeah so i'm i'm not a technical person i'm not a developer but i know that a lot of developers look

333
00:26:49,573 --> 00:26:55,373
at the protocol, they look at the specification and they really admire its simplicity. You have

334
00:26:55,373 --> 00:27:01,093
some really powerful primitives there that allow you to build amazing software that is interoperable

335
00:27:01,093 --> 00:27:08,973
and it's very, very flexible. And we found it to be really, really positive for solving problems

336
00:27:08,973 --> 00:27:13,253
that were, you know, not trivial a couple of years ago, things like cross app comments. So

337
00:27:13,253 --> 00:27:17,853
being able to comment on an episode in one podcast app, being able to reply to that episode in another

338
00:27:17,853 --> 00:27:22,713
one. I mean, anyone who uses NOSTA just knows this is like basic, right? This is what NOSTA is for,

339
00:27:22,853 --> 00:27:26,733
but this is something that people in the podcasting world have been trying to solve for many, many

340
00:27:26,733 --> 00:27:31,813
years. And so, you know, we came to the podcast ecosystem with a solution and said, hey, look,

341
00:27:32,053 --> 00:27:36,013
you guys should build on NOSTA. We've already built this out. Here's the documentation. Here's

342
00:27:36,013 --> 00:27:40,273
what you need to do. Here's how it works. Come join us. You know, very difficult for people to

343
00:27:40,813 --> 00:27:46,253
sign up to something that hasn't reached that kind of critical mass where the protocol,

344
00:27:46,253 --> 00:27:51,013
the ecosystem has reached that point whereby any new person who encounters it is like okay

345
00:27:51,013 --> 00:27:57,373
this has serious credibility i can see that app a b and c are using this it has certain number of

346
00:27:57,373 --> 00:28:02,253
users that makes it feel like it's you know going to stick around and it's solid and it's robust

347
00:28:02,253 --> 00:28:09,013
and so it's been very difficult to get that early traction and i think that that applies both on the

348
00:28:09,013 --> 00:28:14,153
developer level in terms of getting certain apps or engineers or builders to build useful products

349
00:28:14,153 --> 00:28:18,013
on top of NOSTA because I think a lot of the stuff that I've seen recently has been, you know,

350
00:28:18,053 --> 00:28:23,213
it's been kind of small vibe-coded projects, maybe things that are half finished or started

351
00:28:23,213 --> 00:28:28,253
and then kind of abandoned. You have things like, you know, the thing that Jack Dorsey was working

352
00:28:28,253 --> 00:28:33,473
on, Divine, like the Vine reboot. That, you know, I thought maybe might give some additional

353
00:28:33,473 --> 00:28:38,513
credibility to the NOSTA network. It's like, okay, here's somebody very renowned in the tech world

354
00:28:38,513 --> 00:28:43,893
investing a lot of time and energy into building something on this ecosystem. And I haven't really

355
00:28:43,893 --> 00:28:50,513
seen it yet translate. I'd really love it to if it could. But it also applies on the personal level

356
00:28:50,513 --> 00:28:56,513
when you see certain notable people or profiles or accounts joining NOSTA, people like Edward

357
00:28:56,513 --> 00:29:02,033
Snowden, for example, that lends legitimacy to the network and invites more people to join.

358
00:29:02,233 --> 00:29:07,313
I guess, yeah, I guess I've been a little disappointed. NOSTA came with so many promises

359
00:29:07,313 --> 00:29:13,213
and I still think that all that's good about NOSTA is still true. That hasn't changed at all. It's just

360
00:29:13,213 --> 00:29:18,453
that you know and we've done our best to really really invest in nostr and put it front of

361
00:29:18,453 --> 00:29:23,093
everything we do and trying to like push things forward with the type of products experiences

362
00:29:23,093 --> 00:29:27,773
we're building on it but it hasn't reached that point yet and yeah i just i wonder if you know

363
00:29:27,773 --> 00:29:33,793
there's certainly ux challenges technical challenges that we we all know about right it's the the whole

364
00:29:33,793 --> 00:29:38,573
key management thing for example is very complicated even just for somebody completely new to it to get

365
00:29:38,573 --> 00:29:43,013
your head around how it all works and the fact that it's not just one app and one platform it's

366
00:29:43,013 --> 00:29:46,713
an ecosystem of different things and you have a profile and it follows you and you can take it

367
00:29:46,713 --> 00:29:52,573
with you you know these aren't simple things for for many people to understand somehow so yeah i i

368
00:29:52,573 --> 00:29:59,453
don't know i think we just haven't really got to the point yet where people are you you have to be

369
00:29:59,453 --> 00:30:04,593
in a desperate situation to force some kind of change you know and we haven't we haven't had

370
00:30:04,593 --> 00:30:10,393
that urgency or that impetus for people to seek out an alternative yet particularly since you know

371
00:30:10,393 --> 00:30:14,173
Well, according to most people, at least, Elon Musk is doing a great job on X.

372
00:30:14,393 --> 00:30:17,413
And now suddenly everyone over on X is having a great time again.

373
00:30:17,573 --> 00:30:19,973
And everything's working and they have all this stuff working.

374
00:30:20,233 --> 00:30:20,353
Yeah.

375
00:30:20,453 --> 00:30:25,333
And I think it's also interesting to see like, you know, Jack Dorsey's BitChat projects.

376
00:30:25,653 --> 00:30:32,313
Whenever in a developing country there is, you know, the government has closed off access to the internet or there's a power outage or whatever.

377
00:30:32,553 --> 00:30:35,733
People are flocking to BitChat to use that as a messaging tool.

378
00:30:35,873 --> 00:30:38,673
That comes out of a need or an urgency, right?

379
00:30:38,673 --> 00:30:41,153
I have to use this product because there is nothing else.

380
00:30:41,233 --> 00:30:43,953
The thing I depended on before doesn't serve me anymore.

381
00:30:44,633 --> 00:30:48,593
And we haven't been able to see that yet in Nostra.

382
00:30:48,593 --> 00:30:58,733
There's not enough impetus for people to either try Nostra or leave their existing social media apps that they use and just go all in on Nostra yet.

383
00:30:59,733 --> 00:31:04,193
I think this is the crux of the problem, if you can even call it a problem.

384
00:31:04,193 --> 00:31:06,273
because as long as, as you say,

385
00:31:06,333 --> 00:31:08,213
Elon Musk is doing a good job with X,

386
00:31:08,313 --> 00:31:09,453
you don't really need Noster.

387
00:31:09,813 --> 00:31:12,773
So I think many people like myself

388
00:31:12,773 --> 00:31:15,053
use it more as a lifeboat.

389
00:31:15,493 --> 00:31:17,433
And you can even see like an exodus

390
00:31:17,433 --> 00:31:20,533
of Bitcoiners from Noster back to X

391
00:31:20,533 --> 00:31:22,013
because they're not getting,

392
00:31:22,693 --> 00:31:25,273
because Noster is not like growing fast enough

393
00:31:25,273 --> 00:31:28,713
or like giving them the returns,

394
00:31:28,893 --> 00:31:30,313
not only financial returns,

395
00:31:30,453 --> 00:31:31,953
but like engagement returns

396
00:31:31,953 --> 00:31:33,473
that they were looking for.

397
00:31:33,473 --> 00:31:36,673
it's sort of stalled in a way I guess

398
00:31:36,673 --> 00:31:42,773
and as you say the truths about its promises are still true

399
00:31:42,773 --> 00:31:45,333
and we just have to get people building on it

400
00:31:45,333 --> 00:31:48,933
I think Fountain is like a great Noster gateway drug

401
00:31:48,933 --> 00:31:51,573
we have other things such as Atlantis for instance

402
00:31:51,573 --> 00:31:58,993
another cool thing app that has Noster inherently integrated into the whole thing

403
00:31:58,993 --> 00:32:03,073
and I mean there's tons of Noster apps of course

404
00:32:03,073 --> 00:32:08,733
you can go to the zap store and find out more about Nostra apps.

405
00:32:10,733 --> 00:32:15,813
Yeah, I think just one thing on Nostra is that just because it hasn't met our expectations so

406
00:32:15,813 --> 00:32:19,933
far in terms of scale, growth and adoption, it doesn't mean that that's not going to happen in

407
00:32:19,933 --> 00:32:24,413
the future. As much as it's a challenge, it's more actually an opportunity. And we at Fountain,

408
00:32:24,533 --> 00:32:28,893
we're not giving up on Nostra. We're still putting it at the heart of everything we're doing. I mean,

409
00:32:28,893 --> 00:32:33,333
everything we've ever done at Fountain always has to be put through the lens of interoperability.

410
00:32:33,813 --> 00:32:38,173
If it only works on Fountain, then it's probably not worth building. So everything's been designed

411
00:32:38,173 --> 00:32:43,733
in that way. But I'm sure there are examples of other protocols that have been developed

412
00:32:43,733 --> 00:32:49,253
very many years ago that didn't succeed at first. And they had maybe an initial surge,

413
00:32:49,573 --> 00:32:54,053
they flatlined for years, and then they were picked up again later and rediscovered. And then

414
00:32:54,053 --> 00:32:58,953
that's when they took off don't press me to tell you what what those what those protocols are i

415
00:32:58,953 --> 00:33:05,393
wouldn't be able to tell you but i'm sure there are examples of that so the the work that has been

416
00:33:05,393 --> 00:33:10,053
put into nostr both by the contributors at the protocol level but also the developers who are

417
00:33:10,053 --> 00:33:16,093
building on it like that work has not been wasted like this is still in play and really it's up to

418
00:33:16,093 --> 00:33:20,093
us in the same way that it's up to us as bitcoin as you know if we really really believe in this

419
00:33:20,093 --> 00:33:24,253
thing we can't just give up on it when the price goes down like we can't just give up on Nostra

420
00:33:24,253 --> 00:33:29,453
when we feel crap about you know new users or active users or the number of new apps and products

421
00:33:29,453 --> 00:33:35,113
being built on the ecosystem you know we have to to stay true to our beliefs and I think that if we

422
00:33:35,113 --> 00:33:39,433
do that the time will come I'm not sure when that's going to be but I'm I'm still bullish on

423
00:33:39,433 --> 00:33:45,133
I'm as bullish on Nostra as I am on Bitcoin I think that Bitcoin probably feels more inevitable

424
00:33:45,133 --> 00:33:49,293
as a thing that's going to succeed in in the longer term but it's it's easy to say that now

425
00:33:49,293 --> 00:33:52,613
You know, would we have been saying this, you know, 12, 13 years ago?

426
00:33:52,773 --> 00:33:53,233
Maybe not.

427
00:33:53,433 --> 00:33:53,853
I'm not sure.

428
00:33:54,573 --> 00:33:54,633
Yeah.

429
00:33:54,673 --> 00:33:59,813
And I think another thing is just because Google and the Googles and Facebooks and Twitters

430
00:33:59,813 --> 00:34:06,953
of the world had this move fast and break things attitude and gained mass adoption very,

431
00:34:07,113 --> 00:34:12,333
very quickly, we sort of expect that to be the way things get adopted on the internet.

432
00:34:12,333 --> 00:34:18,953
But there's nothing, it's not a law of nature that things on the internet will have to have

433
00:34:18,953 --> 00:34:22,313
that is curve adoption and lead and have global reach.

434
00:34:22,313 --> 00:34:25,073
I mean, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

435
00:34:25,073 --> 00:34:31,573
I think both Noster and Bitcoin are built for low time preference and they're built to be robust.

436
00:34:31,573 --> 00:34:33,613
And that comes with trade-offs.

437
00:34:33,613 --> 00:34:42,513
And one of the trade-offs is convenience, which inherently means that adoption is slower than you'd expect from something that has

438
00:34:43,030 --> 00:34:47,690
compromised, you know, security and privacy and such things.

439
00:34:47,690 --> 00:34:50,930
And then for convenience, and then it's super convenient.

440
00:34:50,930 --> 00:34:53,210
And then all the sheep flock to it.

441
00:34:53,470 --> 00:34:58,410
Whereas most things built on Bitcoin and Nostra are more focused on the long term,

442
00:34:59,370 --> 00:35:03,610
providing the user with value long term, let's just say that.

443
00:35:04,030 --> 00:35:04,150
Yeah.

444
00:35:04,650 --> 00:35:10,790
And I think also, like, we just have to maybe revisit our expectations because as Bitcoiners,

445
00:35:11,270 --> 00:35:11,610
you know,

446
00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:26,990
When we first discovered Bitcoin, it was our goal that Bitcoin would become the unit of account globally, that it would be the global reserve currency, that a higher percentage of payments worldwide would be made in Bitcoin compared to fiat currencies.

447
00:35:27,290 --> 00:35:33,270
I'm not sure if anyone would have, I'm not sure if many people would have kind of pegged that as this is the goal for Bitcoin.

448
00:35:33,850 --> 00:35:36,470
You know, that's obviously, that's the dream, that's the ambition.

449
00:35:36,650 --> 00:35:39,950
It would be great if that happened, but no one's really expecting that to happen.

450
00:35:39,950 --> 00:35:45,390
or at least you know certainly people in the early days of bitcoin they they weren't they

451
00:35:45,390 --> 00:35:49,930
weren't set on that happening and i think the same also can be said for nostr as well you know

452
00:35:49,930 --> 00:35:55,930
it's if our expectation is that nostr is going to surpass x and meta and all of these platforms as

453
00:35:55,930 --> 00:36:02,010
being the number one social media network maybe that's just disillusioned i mean and it maybe

454
00:36:02,010 --> 00:36:08,130
doesn't have to be that you know if if if nostr works for the few and not the many but the few who

455
00:36:08,130 --> 00:36:12,270
do enjoy it, absolutely love it, and it's an indispensable part of their lives and has added

456
00:36:12,270 --> 00:36:16,750
something that other platforms could never have provided, then I would say that's a success.

457
00:36:16,950 --> 00:36:20,330
If it's solved problems that closed platforms could have never solved,

458
00:36:20,830 --> 00:36:24,170
but an open protocol has, I think that's also a success.

459
00:36:24,910 --> 00:36:29,710
Absolutely. I mean, I don't like the expression Bitcoin is for everyone. I think Bitcoin is for

460
00:36:29,710 --> 00:36:36,090
anyone is much more accurate because you sort of have to do your homework to be able to use it.

461
00:36:36,090 --> 00:36:41,570
It's not for everyone. It's for everyone willing to do the work, anyone willing to do the work.

462
00:36:41,890 --> 00:36:43,710
And the same is true for Noster, I guess.

463
00:36:43,930 --> 00:36:50,090
However, if you zoom out and really long term, I think both of these projects are inevitable successes.

464
00:36:50,870 --> 00:36:58,330
They have to be because they are far superior to Bitcoin is far superior to fiat money in every single sense.

465
00:36:58,590 --> 00:37:04,830
And Noster is far superior to centralized platforms on so many important metrics.

466
00:37:04,830 --> 00:37:13,930
I mean, it might be worse at fighting AI bots at the moment or something like that, and curating a feed.

467
00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:19,650
But people are working on these things, and the fundamentals are much, much better.

468
00:37:20,110 --> 00:37:24,510
So yeah, I think their success is inevitable as long as they keep existing.

469
00:37:24,510 --> 00:37:33,750
yeah i i think yeah the challenge really is that if if the if the goal is on a long-term horizon

470
00:37:33,750 --> 00:37:39,990
many companies can't operate on a long-term horizon and exactly the same for for bitcoin

471
00:37:39,990 --> 00:37:45,110
as well you know if you think about merchants and sellers and traders people who are exchanging or

472
00:37:45,110 --> 00:37:50,230
using bitcoin to sell products and services they have short-term challenges you know they have

473
00:37:50,230 --> 00:37:54,830
cash flow they have stock they have the realities of business and trading to make sure that they are

474
00:37:54,830 --> 00:37:59,590
turning a profit that they're able to stay in business and the question is if if these tools

475
00:37:59,590 --> 00:38:04,170
that we have like bitcoin and nostr are working well enough in the short term but not being used

476
00:38:04,170 --> 00:38:10,990
by enough people for it to really make sense for for a business then the reality is is that those

477
00:38:10,990 --> 00:38:15,250
companies or those traders those merchants are going to go out of business so we have to also

478
00:38:15,250 --> 00:38:20,390
So even though we have a long-term vision, we still also have to be grounded in the now

479
00:38:20,390 --> 00:38:22,530
and next month and the month after.

480
00:38:23,590 --> 00:38:26,610
Yeah, there's a truth to that, a short-term truth to that.

481
00:38:26,610 --> 00:38:33,670
But if you zoom out and think about a hyper-Bitcoinized world, then a business is nothing but a signal

482
00:38:33,670 --> 00:38:34,590
group or something.

483
00:38:34,730 --> 00:38:36,670
It's a group of friends doing things together.

484
00:38:36,810 --> 00:38:37,530
It doesn't have to be.

485
00:38:37,850 --> 00:38:42,730
You don't have to have all the what we call lubrication companies like accountants and

486
00:38:42,730 --> 00:38:47,210
lawyers and tax lawyers and stuff because no one can do anything about what you're doing

487
00:38:47,210 --> 00:38:54,090
as a Bitcoin business. That's like sort of the whole end goal is to be sovereign and not have

488
00:38:54,090 --> 00:39:00,750
to give a shit about the rules the mafia sets for you or the government sets for you. But just

489
00:39:00,750 --> 00:39:08,430
Bitcoin actually being its own global ecosystem, business to business also, like everyone settles

490
00:39:08,430 --> 00:39:13,150
everything in sats, then all of those problems are solved. It's just that we're not there yet.

491
00:39:13,390 --> 00:39:20,670
So we have these transit. All the problems described by like, yeah, you have to make profit,

492
00:39:20,850 --> 00:39:26,550
you have to make your business this and that. All of those problems are sort of tied to,

493
00:39:26,690 --> 00:39:31,350
they are fiat system problems. Bank accounts, for instance, and not having them frozen because

494
00:39:31,350 --> 00:39:37,250
you associate with Bitcoin. That's a fiat problem. It's not a Bitcoin problem. So I think it's

495
00:39:37,250 --> 00:39:41,830
It's important to call a spade a spade here and point out where the problem really lies

496
00:39:41,830 --> 00:39:45,230
because Bitcoin itself is the solution, not the problem.

497
00:39:46,990 --> 00:39:49,830
Yeah, no, I think I agree with that.

498
00:39:51,710 --> 00:39:55,230
So when are you going to be releasing your music on FountainCube?

499
00:39:55,810 --> 00:39:57,490
That's a good question.

500
00:39:57,850 --> 00:39:58,950
There's been a little break.

501
00:39:59,210 --> 00:40:05,210
So I recorded some songs here in this room, playing that guitar behind me here

502
00:40:05,210 --> 00:40:08,470
that I've written over the past, say, five years.

503
00:40:08,790 --> 00:40:11,570
And then I gave them to my brother, who's a very good,

504
00:40:12,070 --> 00:40:15,390
first of all, very good musician and composer in his own right.

505
00:40:15,550 --> 00:40:18,390
And he's also got a handful of songs,

506
00:40:18,470 --> 00:40:20,890
so he's also planning on releasing his own stuff.

507
00:40:21,370 --> 00:40:25,850
But what he did to my stuff was add strings and harmonicas

508
00:40:25,850 --> 00:40:28,230
and flutes and whatnot to them,

509
00:40:28,410 --> 00:40:31,930
and some orchestrations to all the songs, very fitting ones.

510
00:40:31,930 --> 00:40:35,130
And also he's working on mixing and mastering the whole thing.

511
00:40:35,210 --> 00:40:38,830
So, so I'm looking forward to that.

512
00:40:38,830 --> 00:40:45,990
It's sort of 85% done, I'd say, but he's sort of lost, lost his mojo for a while, but he's

513
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:48,670
getting back into it here next week.

514
00:40:48,670 --> 00:41:05,769
I believe he he usually works on them when when working his Fiat job So so when he has spare time during his Fiat job so he he he works on on music stuff so so we see when i i don know exactly when it be done but i expect it to be done

515
00:41:05,769 --> 00:41:12,049
within a month maybe or or two and then we'll i'll we'll take it from there i'm wearing the

516
00:41:12,049 --> 00:41:17,749
geyser t-shirt today so i might set up a geyser fund for for pressing vinyls and stuff and

517
00:41:17,749 --> 00:41:23,129
releasing on Fountain, of course, and using all the other Noster and Bitcoin tools that are

518
00:41:23,129 --> 00:41:29,729
available. Because why wouldn't I? And just see how far. This is one of those throwing things at

519
00:41:29,729 --> 00:41:36,069
the wall and see what sticks kind of projects. I don't expect much from it other than to have fun

520
00:41:36,069 --> 00:41:42,089
using all the tools and figuring things out. And very much looking forward to sharing this

521
00:41:42,089 --> 00:41:47,609
with the world and see how it gets received. So yeah, looking forward to it a lot.

522
00:41:47,749 --> 00:41:54,209
yeah i'm excited i'm excited for it too what was your experience in the past of uh if you have

523
00:41:54,209 --> 00:41:58,989
like releasing music and you know getting feedback on it or getting paid for it like what was that

524
00:41:58,989 --> 00:42:04,529
like well this is this is such a good question for me now now you're the interviewer and i'm the

525
00:42:04,529 --> 00:42:11,469
interviewer but tables have turned i mean i'm i'm an old fart i turned 50 this year so so i've been

526
00:42:11,469 --> 00:42:19,289
around quite long and trying to to trying to become an artist was was a a huge part of my life

527
00:42:19,289 --> 00:42:25,009
for a long time and it was the way i see it now is that it wasn't until it wasn't until i stopped

528
00:42:25,009 --> 00:42:30,409
trying that i actually became a rock star but if you can call it that sort of accidents accidental

529
00:42:30,409 --> 00:42:36,749
bitcoin well i wouldn't call it rock star but i'm playing at all these conferences now uh

530
00:42:36,749 --> 00:42:43,589
because of a fluke, basically. So we do this Satoshi Rakamoto gigs and I'm having fun doing those.

531
00:42:43,589 --> 00:42:50,849
But my first experiences were recordings. We recorded on ADATs, if you remember those.

532
00:42:51,509 --> 00:43:00,289
So cassettes, literal cassettes. And then around the millennium, we pressed CDs with some local

533
00:43:00,289 --> 00:43:06,229
bands and tried to sell CDs, which was almost impossible if you didn't have a record deal and

534
00:43:06,229 --> 00:43:10,949
could sell them in record stores because only your close friends and family would buy them and

535
00:43:10,949 --> 00:43:17,909
the others were hard to sell and then of course like later on with i guess my the the the successful

536
00:43:17,909 --> 00:43:23,349
video i have is one called a song called driven by a band called you're out the beast which is a

537
00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:31,529
project it's 15 years old now the video i played in a band sort of grunge rock metal band that made

538
00:43:31,529 --> 00:43:37,609
a video for a single that was promoted by the pirate bay so so the the video was up on they

539
00:43:37,609 --> 00:43:42,529
called it the promo bay so the pirate bay were promoting local bands from all over the world

540
00:43:42,529 --> 00:43:47,889
and we were one of those bands and the video got a hundred thousand views in three days which was

541
00:43:47,889 --> 00:43:52,649
exhilarating of course because i sat by the computer and pressed f5 over and over again

542
00:43:52,649 --> 00:43:57,489
and refreshed the page just to see what had happened and it's like my first experience with

543
00:43:57,489 --> 00:44:01,989
something going viral on the internet or something getting a lot of attention fast.

544
00:44:02,249 --> 00:44:03,989
And that was a great experience.

545
00:44:03,989 --> 00:44:10,989
I guess that played into why I started writing about Bitcoin and why I started seeing the

546
00:44:10,989 --> 00:44:14,209
internet as something that you could actually do something on.

547
00:44:14,349 --> 00:44:19,469
And there were ways of not being drowned out by everything else.

548
00:44:19,569 --> 00:44:22,149
You just need to be there and do the things.

549
00:44:22,149 --> 00:44:27,209
and playing with my brother again here

550
00:44:27,209 --> 00:44:29,409
and producing with my brother again

551
00:44:29,409 --> 00:44:30,529
is great fun too

552
00:44:30,529 --> 00:44:32,129
because around 20 years ago

553
00:44:32,129 --> 00:44:34,409
we recorded music together

554
00:44:34,409 --> 00:44:36,369
me and my two brothers

555
00:44:36,369 --> 00:44:38,669
under the banner Fleet of Clay

556
00:44:38,669 --> 00:44:41,329
which is also available on Spotify

557
00:44:41,329 --> 00:44:44,289
so if you're interested in that

558
00:44:44,289 --> 00:44:48,549
but yeah, I'm excited to do this again

559
00:44:48,549 --> 00:44:52,009
I haven't really put any effort into music

560
00:44:52,009 --> 00:44:59,449
for a long time. So I'm excited to get back into it. And I haven't used any AI and just the very

561
00:44:59,449 --> 00:45:08,049
basic effects and tools in the DAW. So it's my attempt at real stupidity trying to beat AI.

562
00:45:08,049 --> 00:45:14,209
In an era where everyone uses AI for everything, I'm going the complete opposite direction and

563
00:45:14,209 --> 00:45:21,629
being the old fart I am and just being a stubborn old man. But trying to do something pure and

564
00:45:21,629 --> 00:45:29,349
convey something real and we'll see we'll see where it lands that's amazing yeah yeah it's so

565
00:45:29,349 --> 00:45:37,349
interesting that people still have this like really really deep kind of passion and desire to

566
00:45:37,349 --> 00:45:44,609
become an artist despite knowing like how challenging it is to be an artist if you think

567
00:45:44,609 --> 00:45:51,489
about you know what percentage of you know bands formed in schools around the world go on to

568
00:45:51,489 --> 00:45:56,909
become famous it's such a small amount but you know at the at the time because i was in bands

569
00:45:56,909 --> 00:46:02,229
and stuff at school as well like it it feels so it feels so real and it feels so possible and and

570
00:46:02,229 --> 00:46:06,769
beyond anything else it's really just a thrill it's the joy of spending time with your friends

571
00:46:06,769 --> 00:46:12,009
making music you know the possibility of having even just a few people listen to your music or

572
00:46:12,009 --> 00:46:16,449
maybe someone liking your music or someone buying you know seeing your show somewhere like it's

573
00:46:17,129 --> 00:46:21,409
it's it's these really small things and i think that i guess if you're an artist that

574
00:46:21,489 --> 00:46:26,149
you know, you're, you know, let's say you're a 16 year old girl and this is your opportunity.

575
00:46:26,289 --> 00:46:30,509
You see that, okay, I want to become an artist. Like I know how hard it is to get paid for my

576
00:46:30,509 --> 00:46:35,629
music. I know how hard it is to get a record deal. I know that I have to have a million followers on

577
00:46:35,629 --> 00:46:40,589
TikTok to have any chance of even opening the door with some of these people in the music industry.

578
00:46:41,089 --> 00:46:45,109
People are still doing it despite that. And I don't know, I just, I just find that really

579
00:46:45,109 --> 00:46:51,849
interesting yeah i mean for me i sort sure i i wanted to be a rock star in my teens but but

580
00:46:51,849 --> 00:47:00,749
but say after 2025 somewhere i never thought i never had any disillusions but like i knew how

581
00:47:00,749 --> 00:47:17,709
impossible it was and i just wanted to to try to play and record music as well as i could and see how how how good of a product i could make that was always much more interesting to me to just test my own boundaries How good of a song can I write How well can I

582
00:47:17,709 --> 00:47:25,649
sing? How well can I play? How well can I produce something? And I've always been like that with

583
00:47:25,649 --> 00:47:30,229
everyone. If I do something, I want to challenge myself and see how far can I take it.

584
00:47:30,229 --> 00:47:42,929
but but you know the idea of touring with a in a bus like it's awful i i'm doing about like last

585
00:47:42,929 --> 00:47:49,969
year i think i did 13 different bitcoin conferences and a handful of other bitcoin events and for most

586
00:47:49,969 --> 00:47:56,289
of them i i get paid to go there and i get my hotel and travel and flights for free so imagine

587
00:47:56,289 --> 00:48:00,349
not knowing if you're going to get paid for anything,

588
00:48:00,949 --> 00:48:04,989
which is true for bands who are not already famous,

589
00:48:05,149 --> 00:48:08,069
and they try to be famous by touring because it's the only way,

590
00:48:08,849 --> 00:48:12,529
and sitting on a bus every day, like it would suck.

591
00:48:12,649 --> 00:48:13,929
It would suck so much.

592
00:48:14,129 --> 00:48:17,269
There's not even an included breakfast in the hotel deal.

593
00:48:17,269 --> 00:48:18,769
What are you talking about?

594
00:48:19,109 --> 00:48:23,949
And record companies nowadays, by the way, they're basically loan sharks.

595
00:48:23,949 --> 00:48:30,529
They force the artist to take out a huge mortgage to give everything to their dream.

596
00:48:30,789 --> 00:48:33,309
And then they do very little to make that happen.

597
00:48:33,429 --> 00:48:35,369
And the artist has to do everything themselves.

598
00:48:35,749 --> 00:48:37,629
And you can just hope for the best.

599
00:48:37,949 --> 00:48:41,649
And most of these artists are just indebted for the rest of their lives.

600
00:48:41,789 --> 00:48:45,429
And they never make it as artists in the first place.

601
00:48:45,589 --> 00:48:49,569
And this is what the record companies and such make profit from.

602
00:48:49,569 --> 00:48:54,349
So it's an awful business in that sense, the legacy stuff.

603
00:48:54,569 --> 00:49:03,809
Then again, there are so many ways to make creative stuff, to be creative and create stuff nowadays by just using the tools available.

604
00:49:04,089 --> 00:49:11,829
It's, I mean, especially with AI and voiceovers and stuff, you could easily make a Hollywood quality movie from your bedroom.

605
00:49:12,289 --> 00:49:16,809
Like you just have to put in the effort and it's almost without cost.

606
00:49:16,809 --> 00:49:20,249
I mean, yeah, you need to pay for some subscription here and there.

607
00:49:20,349 --> 00:49:24,849
But if you compare it to the cost of a Hollywood movie, it's nothing.

608
00:49:25,649 --> 00:49:32,669
So I think the internet and making everything available to everyone is changing the landscape for sure.

609
00:49:32,769 --> 00:49:36,469
And you don't get phenomena such as rock stars and movie stars anymore.

610
00:49:36,609 --> 00:49:38,429
I think that era is completely over.

611
00:49:38,689 --> 00:49:45,809
And I'm sort of glad it is because all it created really was entitled assholes.

612
00:49:46,809 --> 00:50:05,649
Sure, sure. I do appreciate people who devote their life to their art, like David Bowie or someone like that, that just makes their art their lives. But of course, you can still do that in a world without rock stars and movie stars. There's nothing hindering you from doing that.

613
00:50:05,649 --> 00:50:18,889
So I'm an optimist by nature and I'm optimistic about how, I mean, Hollywood can't die soon enough in my opinion and neither can commercial music.

614
00:50:18,889 --> 00:50:28,729
I think most of it is just awful. Most commercial music and commercial movies are just goddamn awful and full of woke propaganda and bullshit.

615
00:50:29,229 --> 00:50:33,749
So I don't really like that stuff. So yeah. End of rant.

616
00:50:35,649 --> 00:50:39,829
what are your thoughts

617
00:50:39,829 --> 00:50:49,109
yeah i mean it's funny i i always wanted to be an artist when i was younger and i was actually i

618
00:50:49,109 --> 00:50:56,169
was in a band i think i was maybe 13 years old and uh we we'd started recording uh this guy's um

619
00:50:56,169 --> 00:51:02,129
studio it was near my parents house and uh this guy was maybe in his late 50s early 60s he was

620
00:51:02,129 --> 00:51:07,489
kind of like a he was he was he was a rock star he had his own little studio upstairs and we started

621
00:51:07,489 --> 00:51:12,529
making this record with him and a couple of months into the process he sadly passed away

622
00:51:12,529 --> 00:51:18,849
just out of nowhere and we were just so shocked and saddened by the whole thing and we felt like

623
00:51:18,849 --> 00:51:23,709
we owed it to him to like actually go and finish this record without him so we went to we went down

624
00:51:23,709 --> 00:51:27,929
to Tottenham Court Road in London which is where all the audio shops are we bought some some speakers

625
00:51:27,929 --> 00:51:32,909
a microphone a mixer all this stuff and we brought it back to my house and we we tried to finish the

626
00:51:32,909 --> 00:51:37,309
record there but halfway through that actually one of one of the members of our band got scouted by

627
00:51:37,309 --> 00:51:44,049
another local band who went on to become very very successful and i have i have no i have uh yeah i'm

628
00:51:44,049 --> 00:51:47,869
sure he has no regrets at all i have nothing against him for doing it it was the right decision

629
00:51:47,869 --> 00:51:57,189
but i was have you heard of bombay bicycle club no very famous in the uk uh but uh yeah so they uh

630
00:51:57,189 --> 00:51:58,549
Yeah, they went on to become very successful.

631
00:51:58,689 --> 00:52:00,209
And I was left with all this music equipment.

632
00:52:00,409 --> 00:52:01,429
So I spent a lot of time.

633
00:52:01,889 --> 00:52:04,469
I used to produce music for bands in our school.

634
00:52:04,589 --> 00:52:08,129
I used to make my own productions, just making beats, sampling stuff.

635
00:52:08,129 --> 00:52:13,049
I guess with the background goal of maybe this could become something one day

636
00:52:13,049 --> 00:52:14,749
and maybe I can get paid for this one day.

637
00:52:15,189 --> 00:52:17,069
And I have posted all that.

638
00:52:17,189 --> 00:52:20,329
Some of the music from that era on Fountain, you can find it there.

639
00:52:20,509 --> 00:52:20,749
Awesome.

640
00:52:22,329 --> 00:52:25,969
But for me, it was all about just enjoying the craft

641
00:52:25,969 --> 00:52:32,129
and just enjoying the time alone actually just to spend time with these tools twiddling knobs

642
00:52:32,129 --> 00:52:37,189
pressing keys seeing where seeing where things went you know that the reality is is that actually

643
00:52:37,189 --> 00:52:42,629
making a living off that stuff or achieving any kind of acclaim for it was just so far from

644
00:52:42,629 --> 00:52:47,389
possible because it was never my number one priority i think you have to really live and

645
00:52:47,389 --> 00:52:52,029
breathe this stuff and put it before absolutely anything else if you have a single chance and of

646
00:52:52,029 --> 00:52:55,949
course these days there are other things that you have to have like followers on social media or

647
00:52:55,949 --> 00:53:00,929
whatever i was never going to put in the work and that dedication to do that but yeah i i hope that

648
00:53:00,929 --> 00:53:05,789
there's there's there are people out there who are maybe in the situation i found myself in 20

649
00:53:05,789 --> 00:53:10,009
years ago who have these tools have that kind of momentum to go out and create something and

650
00:53:10,009 --> 00:53:15,189
find fountain and actually find a way to to make it work for them you know it would be incredible

651
00:53:15,189 --> 00:53:30,728
to have somebody you know earn you know tens hundred thousands of pounds on on fountain and become you know a success and we become the launch pad for their career you know that that would be incredible yeah let make that happen and let let that someone be me

652
00:53:30,728 --> 00:53:40,168
please no jokes aside uh are you familiar with the band ray uh razor light yeah yeah they're

653
00:53:40,168 --> 00:53:45,788
friends of old friends of mine the the guitarist and the bassist yeah yeah i don't know johnny i

654
00:53:45,788 --> 00:53:50,888
never met him but they the bassist and the guitarist one of them went to school with my brother so so

655
00:53:50,888 --> 00:53:57,568
i've known them since since before they were famous and that was such a weird thing because

656
00:53:57,568 --> 00:54:04,868
they they became like super famous in a very short amount of time in in the uk alone basically i mean

657
00:54:04,868 --> 00:54:09,468
they were popular in some other countries but they were way more popular in the uk than anywhere else

658
00:54:09,468 --> 00:54:15,308
so these two guys they just moved to london and and answered an ad in the newspaper or something

659
00:54:15,308 --> 00:54:19,188
like guitarists and bassists wanted as like, let's give it a shot.

660
00:54:19,188 --> 00:54:21,768
And they became pop stars.

661
00:54:22,348 --> 00:54:25,468
And it's been interesting to follow them and their careers after that,

662
00:54:26,728 --> 00:54:33,268
because they sort of, enemies stopped writing about them at some point,

663
00:54:33,388 --> 00:54:36,428
and then their careers sort of dissipated.

664
00:54:36,588 --> 00:54:38,668
So they were pop stars for a handful of years,

665
00:54:38,808 --> 00:54:42,748
but now they're on a quite successful reunion tour, I hear.

666
00:54:43,308 --> 00:54:44,508
So that's good to see.

667
00:54:45,308 --> 00:54:52,748
Yeah, I mean, they were massive back in, I think it was maybe 2005, 2006 was like peak laser light fame.

668
00:54:52,908 --> 00:54:53,988
Yeah, they were super massive.

669
00:54:54,288 --> 00:54:55,148
I remember seeing them live in Hyde Park.

670
00:54:55,248 --> 00:54:55,428
Yeah.

671
00:54:55,508 --> 00:54:57,508
Yeah, they were great.

672
00:54:57,628 --> 00:55:03,348
They headlined Glastonbury and stuff like that and played like Albert Hall and Wembley Stadium.

673
00:55:03,568 --> 00:55:09,768
And so like really pinch your arm kind of things that normal people don't usually get to do.

674
00:55:09,768 --> 00:55:13,748
But yeah, they're interesting to know for sure.

675
00:55:13,748 --> 00:55:17,368
And I like them a lot, both of them.

676
00:55:17,468 --> 00:55:21,308
They're not Bitcoiners, but they're good old friends and good contacts to have.

677
00:55:21,968 --> 00:55:22,708
That's cool.

678
00:55:22,928 --> 00:55:24,228
Yeah, it's so interesting.

679
00:55:24,388 --> 00:55:25,608
Just the stories.

680
00:55:25,848 --> 00:55:33,388
I think the music industry generally, historically, has just been, it's had such a mystical sort of aura around it.

681
00:55:33,548 --> 00:55:35,388
Like some of the tales and the narratives.

682
00:55:35,728 --> 00:55:43,048
And recently I went on this sort of like rabbit hole of listening to audiobooks, autobiographies from famous rock stars.

683
00:55:43,048 --> 00:55:45,188
and just getting completely lost in that.

684
00:55:45,308 --> 00:55:49,088
So I did Ozzy Osbourne, Eric Clapton, yeah, many others.

685
00:55:49,248 --> 00:55:53,588
And I just, I find it hard to believe that people are going to look back

686
00:55:53,588 --> 00:55:57,008
on this era of music history that we're living through now

687
00:55:57,008 --> 00:56:00,468
in the same way that we can look back on some of these artists

688
00:56:00,468 --> 00:56:04,808
that, you know, came out in the 60s and 70s and 80s.

689
00:56:04,808 --> 00:56:08,028
I just, I struggled to think about, you know,

690
00:56:08,148 --> 00:56:11,288
what Dua Lipa's autobiography is going to be like

691
00:56:11,288 --> 00:56:14,668
when it comes out in 2050 or Taylor Swift's autobiography?

692
00:56:14,828 --> 00:56:16,428
And were there people going to look back on this era

693
00:56:16,428 --> 00:56:18,188
with the same kind of like affection

694
00:56:18,188 --> 00:56:20,428
and sort of like rose-tinted view

695
00:56:20,428 --> 00:56:22,168
of the way that we do when we look back?

696
00:56:22,408 --> 00:56:24,948
Yeah, I mean, I've read a handful of those.

697
00:56:25,128 --> 00:56:28,048
I read Aussies too and Lemmies and Slashes.

698
00:56:28,208 --> 00:56:29,688
I read Aussies one, yeah.

699
00:56:29,948 --> 00:56:30,528
Very funny.

700
00:56:31,008 --> 00:56:33,528
Yeah, I think Lemmies was the funniest one I've ever read.

701
00:56:34,488 --> 00:56:35,568
I should check it out.

702
00:56:35,568 --> 00:56:38,208
And Slashes one was good too, I guess.

703
00:56:38,208 --> 00:56:50,128
But yeah, I think there's something to the 90s. We weren't aware of how unique the 90s were when we lived through them. I mean, I don't know how old you are. I suspect you're younger than I am.

704
00:56:50,128 --> 00:57:15,528
Yeah, so you're quite a bit younger than I am. But I think a lot of the best movies ever and the best music ever is from just before the internet started taking off. And I think some of this has to do with notifications. Because in order to be creative, you need to not only not be interrupted, but also knowing that you're not going to be interrupted.

705
00:57:15,528 --> 00:57:25,168
And I think after social media, the birth of social media, that is somewhat impossible because you're getting interrupted all the time by something.

706
00:57:25,808 --> 00:57:30,688
So the era just before that, I think a lot of things peaked.

707
00:57:31,268 --> 00:57:41,368
The craft of creating a movie or an album without any help from computers, that's a very fascinating era to me.

708
00:57:41,368 --> 00:57:46,368
Like that's the culmination of everything mechanical, if you will.

709
00:57:47,728 --> 00:57:49,488
Yeah, that's definitely it.

710
00:57:50,368 --> 00:57:50,548
Yeah.

711
00:57:51,128 --> 00:57:51,368
Yeah.

712
00:57:52,368 --> 00:57:53,088
All right.

713
00:57:53,248 --> 00:57:55,088
Any other things on your mind?

714
00:57:56,588 --> 00:57:57,988
No, no, nothing.

715
00:57:58,208 --> 00:57:58,448
Yeah.

716
00:57:58,528 --> 00:57:59,728
Thanks for having me back on.

717
00:57:59,788 --> 00:58:01,368
It's been great chatting to you as always.

718
00:58:01,688 --> 00:58:02,008
Likewise.

719
00:58:02,788 --> 00:58:06,488
I'm looking forward to hearing your music come out and fountain soon.

720
00:58:06,768 --> 00:58:07,268
So am I.

721
00:58:07,388 --> 00:58:10,208
Let me know when you're ready and we'll boost it.

722
00:58:10,208 --> 00:58:13,228
We'll do everything we can to get it out there.

723
00:58:13,648 --> 00:58:16,248
And yeah, really hoping that it works out.

724
00:58:16,388 --> 00:58:18,868
And if not, at least it's a fun experience.

725
00:58:18,988 --> 00:58:21,308
Just like you say, playing with the tools that are available.

726
00:58:21,588 --> 00:58:21,748
Yeah.

727
00:58:21,928 --> 00:58:23,608
And my brother's coming over tonight.

728
00:58:23,728 --> 00:58:26,188
So maybe we'll, we have some things to do.

729
00:58:26,268 --> 00:58:32,188
We need to fire up a Noster profile for him and do all the things, signing up for all

730
00:58:32,188 --> 00:58:35,648
of these things that we will need here in a month or two.

731
00:58:35,828 --> 00:58:37,608
So yeah, looking forward to all of it.

732
00:58:37,608 --> 00:58:40,908
And the greatest chat as always, fountain.fm.

733
00:58:42,268 --> 00:58:47,668
And for the extremely generous price of $5 per month,

734
00:58:47,768 --> 00:58:50,608
you can subscribe to the Bitcoin Infinity Show on Fountain

735
00:58:50,608 --> 00:58:54,328
and thereby get the episodes one day earlier than everyone else.

736
00:58:54,468 --> 00:58:57,768
I would appreciate that very much if you signed up for a subscription.

737
00:58:58,188 --> 00:58:59,368
I think it's a great deal.

738
00:58:59,848 --> 00:59:01,248
Definitely check out Fountain.

739
00:59:01,528 --> 00:59:03,988
Anywhere else on the internet you want to send our listeners, Nick?

740
00:59:05,388 --> 00:59:07,488
No, just go to fountain.fm.

741
00:59:07,608 --> 00:59:10,608
And to get the app, just search Fountain in the App Store.

742
00:59:11,168 --> 00:59:12,448
Yeah, get everything set up.

743
00:59:12,608 --> 00:59:13,428
Should only take a minute.

744
00:59:14,168 --> 00:59:14,608
Fantastic.

745
00:59:15,068 --> 00:59:18,668
Go do the things and like, subscribe and brush your teeth.

746
00:59:18,668 --> 00:59:20,748
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

747
00:59:21,108 --> 00:59:21,868
Thanks for listening.

748
00:59:37,608 --> 01:00:07,588
Thank you.