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Jeff, a warm welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show Summer Edition.

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Nice to have you here.

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You too, my friend.

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Yeah, I'm recording not from my normal studio here, but I'm in a house we're renting in

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Sweden here over the summer.

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And I haven't used this equipment before, so I hope it's, I hope it will be up to par.

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But with that out of the way, how are you?

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Well, what's going on?

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I'm great.

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We're both at summer homes.

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Yeah, yeah, you're up in Canada.

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Yeah, how's Sweden in the summer?

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It's beautiful.

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The weather's been very kind to us here.

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A couple of rainy days, but mostly just sunshine and way more manageable temperatures than in Spain for sure.

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And I bet the same is true for Canada, like in comparison to Miami.

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Same is true.

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Same is true.

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And I spent a month in Europe before this and caught that heat wave and it was nuts.

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Yeah, it was great to see you in Prague, by the way.

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Yeah, you too.

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Good fun.

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And one of the reasons I wanted to have you on was this announcement of Orange Use,

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which is Lynn's project mostly, I think, but you're involved in it too.

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It's a strategic reserve thing, but not in the way people think.

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So what differentiates Orange Use from the other more fiat-minded ones?

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yeah and and and what it's actually uh the partners of ego death came together um and created this so

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it's it's lin is a partner to us in in this but it's so it's not one more than any others but

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but what ended up happening in the in it is you know what i've been saying for over and over

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forever right that move more of your time into bitcoin and it reflects back to you you're living

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in the honest protocol and you start to see opportunities in the honest protocol and it

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takes some time. But over time, you start to see everything that's happening. And so that's

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what we did with EgoDeath primarily. So we could, so I, Lynn, Nico, Andy team could move

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our time to invest in companies that were building on top of Bitcoin as a monetary protocol

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and and and and as a to build build forward we should get into some of that because i think it

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ties into some of the stuff you want to talk to to as well on on how we see it as a as the base

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formation of a new internet but let's get into that later so we started doing that we started

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investing in privacy we started investing in a whole bunch of things that were needed to keep

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Bitcoin decentralized and secure and become the not an asset and the new system that would reprice everything.

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So we had a very different view of what Bitcoin was.

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And we started investing behind that.

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And we started to that started to feed back to us.

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So we started to so we started to see that.

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And we did and we sort of see some of the best entrepreneurs in the world who had similar aligned thesis that they to be able to build to be able to build on top of Bitcoin.

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From that view, we did monthly.

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So we raised our first fund, which was $25.5 million.

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That first fund, at that time, remember what was happening.

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Most of the venture capital, outside of a few Bitcoin-only company, a Bitcoin-only venture

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capital, was all investing in tons of venture capital in Chitcoins and all the nonsense

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and everything else.

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Essentially, really an attack on Bitcoin.

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And there was a tiny pocket of venture capital that was aligned to Bitcoin.

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That alignment, so from that first fund, which has had really a lot of success, we don't have one failure of a company in that first fund.

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Lots are growing, some are profitable already and growing really fast, led to our second fund.

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The second fund was oversubscribed.

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It was spent the $100 million, it ended up being $104 million to expand and invest in Series A.

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Along the whole time that we were doing that, because the people who trusted us with their money and thesis who believed in us, we wanted to make sure that we were doing what we said with them too.

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And so we did, we did do and did monthly update calls with all of our investors.

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And a lot of them move, started moving more and more of their time, Bitcoin, and they could see what we were seeing, right?

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We would do calls and we'd go really deep on certain topics or a new investment we made.

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And through that and through some of my podcast appearances and other appearances, we started getting inbounds from those same investors.

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And those investors made their money in fiat, in a business like a Main Street type of business.

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And some of these were really good businesses.

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And they started asking, how do we move?

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I own Bitcoin.

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I buy more Bitcoin all the time. I have this business, but it's in fiat land, right? How do

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I move more of my time to Bitcoin? Same question I get often, often, often, and they could see this

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growth through our fund. And that kind of became the nugget of the idea. And so what it turned out

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to be is some of those businesses would actually sell to us at a lower price, a lower multiple,

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because that way they could be together with a company that was buying more businesses,

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kind of becomes a growth engine, permanent capital vehicle,

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diversify their risk because it's not just one company now,

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it's many, many companies and have the upside of something

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that would bring talent and capital together to do something.

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And that became the genesis of the idea.

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So the idea actually was really from our LPs,

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from that consequence on how they could move more of their time into Bitcoin.

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So as we germinated on that idea, what we realized is, wow, because we also, you spend in Bitcoin, I spend in Bitcoin, because we think in Bitcoin terms, and we have a bunch of investments and different things that are in Bitcoin, we could also not just do that.

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some of these companies, we could really easily get them to accept Bitcoin. We could shine a light

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on what they're doing differently. And we could take essentially Main Street into Bitcoin rather

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than the financialization of the Wall Street and the financialization. So it operates very different

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than a typical private equity firm. Typical private equity firm comes in, levers up a business,

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and that cost of capital, especially when interest rates go up, breaks these businesses,

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right and so there's this and and there isn't there isn't a vehicle right now besides now orange

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juice that actually builds kind of we're going to own businesses forever we're not looking to flip

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and sell them we're not looking to juice them and then sell them we want to we want to look at our

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own businesses we want to back founders who who think about building forever who are generational

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And so interesting. And we know we've hit the mark on this or how we know we've hit the mark on this is from the first launch last week when we first launched it.

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We've already had 37 businesses reach out and we had some before as well, but 37 businesses.

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And and it's all this very similar message.

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My parents or I have owned this business for 60 years, 50 years.

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We never thought we were going to sell. This is the first this is the first financial treatment.

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that feels aligned with what we want to create and what we want to pass on.

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And so it's been crazy powerful.

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So we have just massive inbound funnel to hopefully do really good work

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and drive Bitcoin adoption faster through a vehicle that is not a financialization product,

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actual business product moving Bitcoin into the real economy.

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Yeah, what sizes are these 37 businesses?

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like how big are they like what can we expect there so they're all over the map right right now

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so if you if you have a funnel that then then obviously a lot of people will reach in and some

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of the businesses are too small for uh for for those but they're like some five dental practices

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a flower business a trucking business a lots of different ones we're targeting between between

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one and 10 million in free cash flow per year out of these businesses.

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And probably the more the sweet spot would be three to $10 million in free cash flow

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from these businesses.

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But it actually the opposite end of what you see today So today there all of the AI businesses and you heard me say this over and over and over again But in artificial intelligence prices fall to the marginal cost of production

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Marginal cost of production of a line of code is zero, right?

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And so you have all of these people investing in AI, thinking it's Amazon or Google,

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and they're massively over-investing in those companies.

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and pulling money from really well-run companies that you can buy reasonably,

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that are kind of mainstreet businesses, those are resilient businesses.

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So we're not in these high, high growth businesses.

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We're looking for stable companies, great founders who want to keep running their businesses.

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And what would you say to, like, I mean, Saylor famously sold some of his Bitcoins

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after having promised that he never would.

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So what would you say to critics that say this is just another fiat game

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and this is still in the fiat world and we don't believe you?

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Like, how would you address that?

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And I can imagine that a lot of people in what you just described

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feel you said this and then did this.

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Like, if you looked at Sailor's interviews a long time ago,

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they're very different than digital capital.

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It's completely different.

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And you could see the pivot to a different to a different version of his reality.

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Now, and that's I've had a debate with him directly on that topic that that's not that it's not aligned.

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These things can't go together.

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I've been very consistent with my message that the systems are opposite.

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Right. The natural state of the free market forces prices down through productivity gains flow to you.

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And the only thing that could that could back that is something that's outside of that system that that doesn't get captured by that system.

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So two opposite systems and inflationary money.

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So where does the money come from for the inflationary system?

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It comes from stealing from you and you know this well.

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So I've been very consistent on this is what I want in the world.

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This is what I want for my kids.

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And here's where I'm going to spend my time.

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People can watch and see if I get captured.

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Right. But, but ultimately, but ultimately all of the nonsense of even what's going on right now, you'll only be able to see through somebody's actions. You'll only be able to see through over and over and over again, what they, not just what they say they do, what they do. And, and so, so let's pull that thread a little bit further on this, this example.

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Most people today that call themselves Bitcoiners who are Bitcoiners and complaining about everyone else spend most of their money in fiat.

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Just about all.

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You know this, I know this, and I try to spend as much as I can in Bitcoin.

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So the very same category of people that are complaining about everyone else are making the existing system stronger through their actions of spending in fiat.

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Because their dentist doesn't take Bitcoin and this person doesn't take Bitcoin.

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or the person is, even if they do, they're converting it back to fiat right away.

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So the majority of the world, if that's true, and it's certainly true, is still talking a good game

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to everyone else, dividing everyone else, and still doing the same thing that makes the system

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stronger over them and everyone else. And they think they're leading. And the only way to really

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lead is to actually move your time and energy and spending in Bitcoin. And I'm not judging anybody

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here. I'm just saying it's ironic that people are doing this while giving all of their time and

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attention to fiat and thinking it's somebody else. So now pull on that thread. These businesses

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will be moving to Bitcoin. They'll be moving and accepting Bitcoin. They'll be driving Bitcoin.

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Now what's the risk? The risk is if and or when this goes public, now are we captured by a different

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machine, right? That we change what we say we're going to do. We stop accepting Bitcoin. We start

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are playing fiat games or are we consistent with a long term strategy of permanent capital?

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And what I suspect we will do and what I hope we will do, what I will do is a long term

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strategy for permanent capital that makes these big really that turns these businesses

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into Bitcoin businesses and more people spend in Bitcoin because they can.

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Yeah, I mean, I think what you touched on there is the crux of the problem, because

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As soon as fiat is involved, you have all these malincentives that come with it.

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And it's within Bitcoin itself, like Hodlanoff's articles explaining what happened in Core, for instance, and all the funds that have been granted to developers and how they misalign incentives.

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I mean, that is a huge problem.

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What are your views on that?

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So I agree.

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So here's the problem.

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I've said it a different way for seven years, exactly the same thing.

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In 5,000 years, if we've never lived in the free market,

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and we know for sure that the free market is productivity flows to people,

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then it's not those people, it's us, right?

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And so what you're saying is everybody chases the money.

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They tell other people they shouldn't, well, they themselves will.

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And so it's, by the way, what I just said, it has to be true.

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So take that into your student of Austrian economics, right?

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A bunch of what Mises said in Austrian economics talk was right.

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And it was always right.

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Before that, there were different versions of the same thing through most religions, right?

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Always the same thing.

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But what happens?

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People cheat.

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And people cheat.

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And because they have the money and other people follow the money,

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and other people follow the money,

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The money subverts what's right.

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And what's right, those people look crazy or stupid or the small minority and they can't overcome the monetary machine.

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All you're saying right now is that version playing out on Bitcoin.

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And by the way, for Bitcoin to succeed, it has to go through this.

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Why does it have to go through this?

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Because it has to go through us.

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It has to go through each of us moving our time.

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And if it has to.

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Not good, bad, everything else.

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Us changing from a system that has always been based on theft,

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that's always had control, that's never been a global free market,

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to one that is.

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And each of us has a vote.

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Each of us has a choice.

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But Huddle Nuts articles and many things before in the history

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are the same thing.

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Mises and all the Austrians looked crazy to people

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who were chasing more money through money that was being printed.

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and they could make those people look crazy

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in a fringe movement

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because all of the education systems

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and all of everything else went to where the money was.

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So if that was true, and it's always been true

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because we've never lived in a free market,

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then it must be true now.

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And it must be, and that must say it's us.

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Yeah, I absolutely agree.

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And it's kind of dark, like a dark outlook on humanity

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that we all get fooled by these short-term gains

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and that we prioritize those even.

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But it does make sense from an evolutionary perspective.

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I mean, no one can have an infinite time preference.

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It just doesn't work that way.

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So how do we get people to be more principled in general?

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I mean, education is one thing,

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but yeah, maybe I'm leading this in the wrong.

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The obvious path to take this conversation

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is how do we protect Bitcoin from this stuff?

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And how does it relate to the battle playing out right now

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with Bip1.10 and all of that?

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Like, how do you see that?

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What role does this battle play?

223
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And yeah, what are your thoughts around that?

224
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Again, conversations like this that are nuanced

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can go so many places

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and people will cut the version that they want

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and create something different to remove the nuance.

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And so I don't even know where to start on this.

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Let's say you and I.

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You and I are, I consider you a good friend

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and you are not exactly like me, right?

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You have a view of the world

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and that view reflects back to you.

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I have a view of the world and it reflects back to me

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and it bumps into a whole bunch of other views of the world which make up the construct of our reality And we will so believe our view of the world against everything else

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And those fights, all of it, all of the good, bad, the reflexive action, somebody does this,

237
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creates an opportunity somewhere else to do something different.

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That reflexive action of all of us, trying to matter, trying to create a view of the

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reality that's consistent with what we believe as our beliefs are changing is the messiness of

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human action. It's in that human action through this. So people will move. So I could yell at

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somebody all day long. They're an idiot. It typically doesn't get them to move. It typically

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gets them to harden in their position. And so I try not to do that. I try to let people be where

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they are and not make judgments of who they are and just be me. And not that I wouldn't make

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mistakes, but be me unequivocally who I am and say, and tell the truth as best as I know it at

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any given moment. And in my life, that feeds back as a positive network of a whole bunch of people

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that sometimes take shots at me too. Right. And, and, and when, and when, and if they, if they did,

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it comes down to one of two things, two things, their view of the world or my, of their view of

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what my statement was is wrong and they need to vent or so it didn't do anything to me.

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It didn't say anything about me or something actually what they said was right. And I update

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my I update my view and understand more. So I just again, I don't take any issue with any of

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that nonsense. I just know I know who I am. I try to and I try to feed the best version of me.

252
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I also know for sure that eight years ago, nine years ago, 10 years ago, I was living in a different paradigm.

253
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Equally true as today.

254
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Different outcomes, different outputs, different inputs, different outcomes.

255
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But I had no idea how big and important Bitcoin was.

256
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I was living in fiat, thought I was contributing to the world in the best way.

257
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Tons of friends who did the same, and I had no idea.

258
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So if I could change through that path and now understand this, how could I look at myself eight years ago where most of the world is today and say those people are stupid?

259
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No, of course you couldn't.

260
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And of course you shouldn't.

261
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I mean, but I think we're alike in that way.

262
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We don't attack people, but we do attack bad ideas.

263
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I mean, that's what we're in Bitcoin for.

264
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Yeah. And one of the greatest things about Bitcoin is the consensus mechanism and the way this is. You get to see the entire range of debate. And most Bitcoiners are critical thinkers and you know that there has to be an attack because the two systems are opposites.

265
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Right. So so now that critical thinking inside a inside a consensus mechanism with and I want to be careful here because I don't think a lot of people in core believe that they're attacking Bitcoin.

266
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I think they believe that they're saving Bitcoin.

267
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You might have a view that they're wrong, right?

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Or bad people or any, I don't think you do.

269
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But there's a whole bunch of different views in this that from that view would be right from their own view, right?

270
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But ultimately, the market is going to decide this and the market being us.

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yeah and the market i mean one of the things i love about bitcoin and that made me fall in love

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with bitcoin is that it hands out humble pie in in droves it it hits you in the face with humble

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pie like it did for the bcashers for instance they had to eat a lot of humble pie and the ones

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who did are welcomed back but the ones some of them stick to their guns and still think that bcash

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is the thing.

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And I mean, this upcoming fork,

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if we're talking about the nuance here,

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there's many ways to see this.

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And I think the BIP-110 side,

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like I'm not a perfect representative of it,

281
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but I think it has boiled down to,

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is it possible to do a minority soft fork or not?

283
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Is it possible for the hand grenade metaphor, right?

284
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We're going to do this.

285
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And if you're a miner, you're missing out on 15% of your revenue because we're going to or potentially because we're going to throw away your blocks.

286
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So I think a lot of people from the core side see that as a bluff.

287
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And it's very hard to get an objective view of what's actually going on and what the actual chances of success are for either side.

288
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I personally, in this fight for integrity reasons, and I don't care about whether I'm quote unquote right or wrong because I don't base my views on outcome.

289
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I base them on principles.

290
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So I'm on the side that I think is morally correct to be on.

291
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And I think one of the things that have sort of evolved into this whole thing is that this could be a very good reminder to the miners and the big, big dollar companies in Bitcoin who's actually in charge, which ought to be the nodes.

292
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And as I remember the block size wars, BIP-148 had a huge impact on that and SegWit did not have consensus and the threshold for miners was way higher.

293
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And still, history has sort of been rewritten as that the miners just happened to flip the bit and signal for SegWit when there was a clear incentive from the user-activated soft fork that they would suffer economically if they didn't.

294
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And I think a similar scenario is playing out now.

295
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I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but as I said, I'm not basing my opinions on it on outcome.

296
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So if I have to eat a humble pie afterwards, I guess I have to.

297
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People keep asking me, what will you do if you fork off and stuff?

298
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And I don't even think about that until the forecast happened and until I saw what happened and take in that information,

299
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because there are so many unknown unknowns and so many variables in this.

300
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So it's very hard to get an objective view of,

301
00:23:47,641 --> 00:23:51,601
okay, I was wrong about how Bitcoin worked in this particular way

302
00:23:51,601 --> 00:23:54,601
or I was right about how Bitcoin worked in this particular way.

303
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I cannot know that until I see this whole thing play out.

304
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So what are your predictions?

305
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Do you have any predictions or do you have a similar view of it?

306
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what's yeah so so again here's the nuance in in just that view of you so i've said many times

307
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i'm aligned with this movement i'm aligned with this no i see i see risk in it too i when i when

308
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i when i just go back to my mental model 5 000 years we've never lived in a global free market

309
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if if bitcoin is stays decentralized and secure then it imposes a global free market not maybe

310
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Which means it has to come up under attack from all of these things.

311
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And it must continually be attacked by all of these things because the entire monetary system that we measure money through and credit base note that is non-existent, that exists because we give it power that seals from us.

312
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All of the money is in that system and we don't know it.

313
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I want to advise the broader way you know it.

314
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And so if I think about that attack and what it would do to and all of the types of things it would do to try to go back.

315
00:25:06,441 --> 00:25:10,381
If you couldn't kill Bitcoin through, it's bad for the environment.

316
00:25:10,621 --> 00:25:11,741
China is going to stop it.

317
00:25:11,801 --> 00:25:13,141
We're going to regulate it to death.

318
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If you couldn't kill Bitcoin and it kept on going, you'd have to co-opt it.

319
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You'd have to do so. So the things that a whole lot wrote, the things that I've expected for a long time are just things are just natural evolutions of this thing.

320
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Does it stay decentralized and secure? And and and then I asked myself the next next question.

321
00:25:33,921 --> 00:25:38,741
question. Today, if most people are measuring Bitcoin and price go up and most Bitcoiners,

322
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including most Bitcoin, I forget that 99% of people who don't understand Bitcoin,

323
00:25:43,381 --> 00:25:48,761
most Bitcoiners, the 1% are measuring in price go up because they're trying to feed their families

324
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and they're trying to buy a house and they're trying to everything else. They're not measuring

325
00:25:52,381 --> 00:25:56,901
it in the free market. They're measuring it in price go up and fiat dollars so they can take

326
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these actions and do this and be the new rich people And that model of reality which if you told people two different things one that matches their reality

327
00:26:08,472 --> 00:26:09,592
prices always go up.

328
00:26:09,752 --> 00:26:12,672
Here's a Bitcoin, it'll go up faster than other prices

329
00:26:12,672 --> 00:26:14,712
versus the natural state of the free market

330
00:26:14,712 --> 00:26:16,652
is deflation and prices should fall.

331
00:26:16,852 --> 00:26:18,572
They'll always believe the former.

332
00:26:18,892 --> 00:26:22,112
That will give the attackers greater power

333
00:26:22,112 --> 00:26:24,612
to co-opt Bitcoin because it's us.

334
00:26:24,712 --> 00:26:26,172
It's not them, it's us.

335
00:26:26,172 --> 00:26:52,092
And so, so, so all of the things that I would see or expect to see in all of these fights, this fight has to be inside, inside ballgame money. It has to be, right, to be able to try to, now, let's use, let's use core as an example, an example here. But, but of course, if that was the case, you would infiltrate the network, right, to try to move this network into something else. Of course, of course you would.

336
00:26:52,092 --> 00:27:00,432
Now, if you change that network, because I'm not saying everybody in core or anybody that funds core are bad actors.

337
00:27:00,692 --> 00:27:02,252
I'm not saying that at all.

338
00:27:02,392 --> 00:27:13,252
I'm saying a centralized group of people that has more influence than other people in designing the rules, of course, would be subject to this.

339
00:27:13,412 --> 00:27:16,672
And it would be really hard to know if you were being manipulated.

340
00:27:16,892 --> 00:27:20,552
If you were part of that, it would feel like these are my friends.

341
00:27:20,552 --> 00:27:22,012
This is where I'm getting paid.

342
00:27:22,092 --> 00:27:23,092
This is everything else.

343
00:27:23,192 --> 00:27:25,972
It wouldn't, you're not necessarily a bad actor.

344
00:27:26,072 --> 00:27:30,292
You just, this is such a complex topic that no one's ever lived in the free market.

345
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So it would match your pattern and you would be able to susceptible to all these things.

346
00:27:35,952 --> 00:27:37,172
Now do the same thing on knots.

347
00:27:37,392 --> 00:27:41,212
You move from this group to another group that are smaller.

348
00:27:41,512 --> 00:27:42,972
You could argue the same thing there.

349
00:27:43,152 --> 00:27:44,372
How do you protect it from that?

350
00:27:44,372 --> 00:27:56,752
And so the nuance on these debates is very nuanced because we've never lived in this type of free market that Bitcoin imposes if it stays decentralized and secure.

351
00:27:56,952 --> 00:28:01,132
So that decentralization and security is a critical, critical thing to keep.

352
00:28:01,492 --> 00:28:04,312
Now, from that lens, I'm completely aligned with you.

353
00:28:04,612 --> 00:28:05,872
Completely aligned with you.

354
00:28:06,012 --> 00:28:06,772
What are the risks?

355
00:28:06,972 --> 00:28:07,592
What do we do?

356
00:28:07,732 --> 00:28:08,372
How does it?

357
00:28:08,372 --> 00:28:14,472
Because it means this might look like the battle, right, that we have to do this, but the real battle is coming later.

358
00:28:14,472 --> 00:28:16,632
Or there's another battle and there's another battle.

359
00:28:16,812 --> 00:28:23,032
And to win the war is going to be a series and series of these battles to keep it decentralized and secure.

360
00:28:23,372 --> 00:28:29,972
And that thing, while everybody's giving their energy to a system that steals their energy, is going to be constant.

361
00:28:29,972 --> 00:28:46,332
Yeah, I love this decentralized and secure mindset because for me, there was a specific point in time where I started viewing Bitcoin as sufficiently decentralized and secure.

362
00:28:46,832 --> 00:28:48,812
And that was the outcome of the block size wars.

363
00:28:48,812 --> 00:28:53,352
After that played out, I was like, I was sure that we won this battle.

364
00:28:53,672 --> 00:28:55,312
This means that we can win every battle.

365
00:28:55,512 --> 00:28:57,252
It is sufficiently decentralized.

366
00:28:57,252 --> 00:29:00,512
The people were in charge, not the big money.

367
00:29:01,192 --> 00:29:13,992
And so my question would be, given the outcome of BIP-110 now, in what scenario would you stop viewing Bitcoin as decentralized and secured?

368
00:29:14,192 --> 00:29:18,732
And in what scenario would you view it as, OK, we are decentralized and secure?

369
00:29:18,732 --> 00:29:29,452
Like, is this battle of a big enough magnitude to be a litmus test for decentralizedness and secureness?

370
00:29:29,672 --> 00:29:32,032
I have a hard time formulating the question.

371
00:29:32,592 --> 00:29:37,832
Yeah, so again, I could argue that both ways and should argue you should steel man both sides.

372
00:29:38,132 --> 00:29:46,212
Let's just say the core version of that and you transfer all of the power to a very small number of maintainers.

373
00:29:46,212 --> 00:30:11,572
Is it more decentralized and secure or is that a risk? And of course it's a risk, right? Let's just be honest with that risk. Now, Luke is, if I look back at Luke's proof of work, I believe he is incredible and he's seen things. If you go second order, third order effects, he's seen things far before other people have seen things and has evidence and a body of work that shows that shows that evidence. He's genius in this.

374
00:30:11,572 --> 00:30:18,912
But then the other argument, who else and what does that create, is it is just different centralization, right?

375
00:30:19,112 --> 00:30:21,552
And let's be honest with that right now.

376
00:30:21,812 --> 00:30:23,172
Is there enough there?

377
00:30:23,292 --> 00:30:26,032
So what does the new thing look like?

378
00:30:26,272 --> 00:30:27,612
And it can't be one thing.

379
00:30:27,872 --> 00:30:30,952
It has to be multiple implementations with multiple people.

380
00:30:31,532 --> 00:30:34,332
And I'm going to tangent this for a second.

381
00:30:34,692 --> 00:30:41,232
What I think is happening in Bitcoin, and it's not just on this, it's on mining, it's on everything else,

382
00:30:41,232 --> 00:30:45,292
is as something becomes more centralized and the power,

383
00:30:45,512 --> 00:30:50,732
it creates a reflexive action from people who know the decentralized security matters.

384
00:30:51,012 --> 00:30:54,972
And it takes time for that reflexive action to play out in the market.

385
00:30:55,232 --> 00:30:58,792
So you have a time that things are consolidating and then people are getting,

386
00:30:58,952 --> 00:31:02,312
and then people get, what the hell, this isn't my Bitcoin,

387
00:31:02,532 --> 00:31:06,312
which creates an opportunity in the free market to create something else,

388
00:31:06,432 --> 00:31:09,332
which is the reflexive action from the central control.

389
00:31:09,332 --> 00:31:13,612
And all of the fights that happen are that playing out.

390
00:31:15,592 --> 00:31:17,392
Yeah, I completely agree.

391
00:31:17,592 --> 00:31:29,932
But like, sorry for picking your brain so much about this, but I'm thinking more of the specific scenario of BIP-110, which is more like nodes versus miners than nodes versus core.

392
00:31:30,552 --> 00:31:36,952
Like, so would you view Bitcoin as more or less secure given one of the two outcomes?

393
00:31:36,952 --> 00:31:39,332
because if mine are...

394
00:31:39,332 --> 00:31:42,952
So simply, simply, and I'll go simply,

395
00:31:43,112 --> 00:31:44,532
then I'm going to go for an explanation

396
00:31:44,532 --> 00:31:46,272
on what I think are some of the things

397
00:31:46,272 --> 00:31:49,392
I believe went wrong to get here.

398
00:31:49,592 --> 00:31:51,372
So simply, if nodes don't matter,

399
00:31:51,612 --> 00:31:53,832
Bitcoin will not be decentralized and secure.

400
00:31:57,112 --> 00:31:58,352
Nodes need to matter.

401
00:31:58,512 --> 00:31:59,532
You need to voice your,

402
00:31:59,752 --> 00:32:01,312
that you matter in this network.

403
00:32:01,532 --> 00:32:03,052
I believe like you believe,

404
00:32:03,132 --> 00:32:04,052
Bitcoin is us.

405
00:32:04,152 --> 00:32:06,472
It's the best of us encoded into a system

406
00:32:06,472 --> 00:32:13,172
for the best for us. We know also that many people will cheat because people cheat. Otherwise,

407
00:32:13,172 --> 00:32:17,512
we wouldn't have lived in the non-free market. They don't call it cheat. They call it,

408
00:32:17,912 --> 00:32:23,552
if I can get something from somebody else for my family, I'm going to do it before somebody

409
00:32:23,552 --> 00:32:29,992
does it to me. So they call it something else. But we know from human action that if we've never

410
00:32:29,992 --> 00:32:34,852
lived in a free market, then it's us. Bitcoin has to resolve against us. And this is part of it

411
00:32:34,852 --> 00:32:40,312
resolving against us and whether it wins or not, it has to keep doing this to be able to win.

412
00:32:40,632 --> 00:32:47,152
It means there has to be all these fights for it to win. But I believe nodes matter and nodes have

413
00:32:47,152 --> 00:32:51,772
to matter to keep this decentralized and secure. Because if it's somebody else, if it's that group

414
00:32:51,772 --> 00:32:56,832
of miners, then that is the attack, then that's the attack factor. Now I'm going to go into

415
00:32:56,832 --> 00:33:02,932
something that I think caused a lot of this stuff. And it caused a lot of this stuff because

416
00:33:02,932 --> 00:33:07,552
because people's view of the free market is not the free market.

417
00:33:07,552 --> 00:33:14,732
And so you had core, maybe decent actors trying to stop things like Mara,

418
00:33:14,932 --> 00:33:18,552
including other stuff to get paid more.

419
00:33:18,732 --> 00:33:18,892
Fair?

420
00:33:20,232 --> 00:33:20,832
Yep.

421
00:33:21,252 --> 00:33:28,452
And how do we stop this kind of end around in putting stuff in Bitcoin's blockchain?

422
00:33:29,032 --> 00:33:31,412
Or that would be, maybe it didn't happen exactly like that,

423
00:33:31,412 --> 00:33:34,932
But that's going to be a really good way to say we have to stop this.

424
00:33:35,092 --> 00:33:38,852
And then you'd have a whole bunch of developers saying, yes, that is dangerous for Bitcoin.

425
00:33:39,072 --> 00:33:41,252
We would agree with that being dangerous for Bitcoin.

426
00:33:41,412 --> 00:33:43,932
And then the solution to how to stop it.

427
00:33:43,932 --> 00:33:48,172
But the solution was to a problem that actually didn't exist.

428
00:33:48,712 --> 00:33:53,732
Because the free market for mining, I'm on the board of Core Scientific, which was the largest Bitcoin miner.

429
00:33:54,692 --> 00:33:58,992
And they went broke and I joined the board afterwards, but they went to Bangkok.

430
00:33:59,312 --> 00:33:59,712
But why?

431
00:33:59,712 --> 00:34:03,792
Because they didn't understand the free market and what's happening in Bitcoin.

432
00:34:04,212 --> 00:34:06,612
And Mara will likely go broke.

433
00:34:06,832 --> 00:34:07,152
And why?

434
00:34:07,412 --> 00:34:09,312
Because the free market in...

435
00:34:09,312 --> 00:34:11,492
And so the problem doesn't exist.

436
00:34:11,772 --> 00:34:12,392
And here's why.

437
00:34:12,492 --> 00:34:20,292
The block reward is enough all the way to 2140 in a free market that miners will mine Bitcoin.

438
00:34:20,552 --> 00:34:21,792
They don't need fees, right?

439
00:34:22,192 --> 00:34:23,772
The block reward's enough.

440
00:34:24,072 --> 00:34:24,272
Why?

441
00:34:24,272 --> 00:34:25,272
Why?

442
00:34:25,272 --> 00:34:30,472
Because so everybody is trying to get more fees into Bitcoin to protect minor to protect

443
00:34:30,472 --> 00:34:31,472
miners.

444
00:34:31,472 --> 00:34:36,752
Well, what that does if you're a miner like that is is you invest a whole bunch of capex

445
00:34:36,752 --> 00:34:37,992
into a spot.

446
00:34:37,992 --> 00:34:42,132
You have high cost energy and you're trying to pay for your capex and energy and you're

447
00:34:42,132 --> 00:34:43,032
trying to get extra money.

448
00:34:43,082 --> 00:34:48,322
your transactions to pay for that. And what it means is you don't move to the lowest cost energy

449
00:34:48,322 --> 00:34:53,762
while others move to the lowest cost energy. And the longer you stay put in your big capex

450
00:34:53,762 --> 00:34:58,582
with high cost energy, the faster you drive yourself off a cliff because you're mining for

451
00:34:58,582 --> 00:35:04,702
a loss. And the market, the free market perfectly resolves the centralization of miners because they

452
00:35:04,702 --> 00:35:10,602
can't centralize because the free market constantly rewards the person with the lowest cost energy

453
00:35:10,602 --> 00:35:12,662
and the new equipment.

454
00:35:13,142 --> 00:35:18,102
So the very nature of trying to get extra transactions in

455
00:35:18,102 --> 00:35:21,482
to protect your aging fleet into high-cost energy

456
00:35:21,482 --> 00:35:24,422
stops you from doing the things you need to do as a miner

457
00:35:24,422 --> 00:35:25,562
to be successful.

458
00:35:27,522 --> 00:35:31,762
And then a whole bunch of people decide

459
00:35:31,762 --> 00:35:34,142
big mining is a centralization risk.

460
00:35:34,282 --> 00:35:35,622
Let's solve it this way.

461
00:35:36,062 --> 00:35:38,162
And the solve didn't need to even happen.

462
00:35:38,302 --> 00:35:39,182
It would have gone away.

463
00:35:39,182 --> 00:35:46,822
that's and so but take the nuance of that debate right nobody's ever seen a free market what it

464
00:35:46,822 --> 00:35:52,882
looks like why why mining can't centralize in a free market it can only centralize in a manipulated

465
00:35:52,882 --> 00:35:59,622
market and and and and but we've always lived in manipulated markets you can understand why a whole

466
00:35:59,622 --> 00:36:04,902
bunch of people would be oh my god we're it's it looking one step out right then the thing right

467
00:36:04,902 --> 00:36:10,382
now instead of two orders out thing right now oh my god we got to do something now it's urgent

468
00:36:10,382 --> 00:36:18,922
and they actually create more pain no i totally agree i mean like the i think the the narrative

469
00:36:18,922 --> 00:36:26,182
that we have to care about the money miners make is dangerous even because i should i as a bitcoin

470
00:36:26,182 --> 00:36:31,202
user shouldn't even have to care about that because the the difficulty adjustment algorithm

471
00:36:31,202 --> 00:36:34,322
is there to make mining a zero-sum game.

472
00:36:34,822 --> 00:36:38,222
It is to make Bitcoin for the Bitcoiners

473
00:36:38,222 --> 00:36:39,882
and not for the fiat-minded people.

474
00:36:40,102 --> 00:36:43,002
You're supposed to lose fiat, but gain sets.

475
00:36:43,582 --> 00:36:45,362
And that's the entire thing.

476
00:36:45,722 --> 00:36:48,022
So, but carry that forward.

477
00:36:48,302 --> 00:36:50,222
Just so you know, in the free market,

478
00:36:50,362 --> 00:36:52,582
that's the way every market looks, not just mining.

479
00:36:53,042 --> 00:36:55,302
It's just mining is experiencing at first.

480
00:36:55,502 --> 00:36:56,462
AI looks like that.

481
00:36:56,702 --> 00:36:59,102
Everything looks like that in the free market.

482
00:36:59,102 --> 00:37:01,142
In other words, there can be no monopoly

483
00:37:01,142 --> 00:37:07,362
in the free market because the incentive is essentially the free market says thou must

484
00:37:07,362 --> 00:37:13,822
create value for somebody else on their terms to to win and then when you create value that margin

485
00:37:13,822 --> 00:37:17,922
is exploited by somebody else trying to create more value than you and that's what's happening

486
00:37:17,922 --> 00:37:21,882
in mining right and that's what's happening and that's what will happen in every industry

487
00:37:21,882 --> 00:37:26,922
because of bitcoin and so you'll make so the companies that are truly successful will make a

488
00:37:26,922 --> 00:37:33,162
tiny little bit from providing lots of lots of value or for a short time they'll make a lot

489
00:37:33,162 --> 00:37:37,802
until somebody else steals their margin yeah that's what yeah that's what that that's where

490
00:37:37,802 --> 00:37:43,222
we are going because of bitcoin and where we're but but all of this is really hard on our mind

491
00:37:43,222 --> 00:37:48,282
because we've never seen it before and so so it would be that's why i keep going back to these

492
00:37:48,282 --> 00:37:55,782
wars these or battles must come over and over and over and over again the battle creates and

493
00:37:55,782 --> 00:38:03,282
The centralization creates a risk and then the resolve to the risk and not all resolves will work.

494
00:38:03,602 --> 00:38:05,802
My intent might not work, right?

495
00:38:05,922 --> 00:38:15,222
But the reflexive action of knots to something that some people see as a risk is the free market moving at risk.

496
00:38:15,362 --> 00:38:21,422
And then that battle, depending what happens, we learn and the thing and we learn, don't learn.

497
00:38:21,422 --> 00:38:26,502
Some people fail, other people have success, and another battle emerges.

498
00:38:27,842 --> 00:38:38,282
Yeah, no, that's, I mean, I always try to push this point that some people say that the free market will solve it, and they mean, by the free market, they mean the fees.

499
00:38:38,282 --> 00:38:42,782
But people buying hardware and running software is also the free market.

500
00:38:43,102 --> 00:38:44,782
It's all a part of the free market.

501
00:38:45,202 --> 00:38:48,142
So you just nailed it.

502
00:38:48,142 --> 00:38:58,862
So when people say fees on the fee market, well, at the very same time, more is moving to lightning, more is moving to federations that don't require fees.

503
00:38:59,142 --> 00:39:02,522
The fee market for this, I don't believe.

504
00:39:02,682 --> 00:39:03,802
I don't believe it's required.

505
00:39:04,142 --> 00:39:06,242
The block size is enough in a free market.

506
00:39:07,322 --> 00:39:14,982
The block size reward is enough and it will be enough because they're mining at a loss.

507
00:39:14,982 --> 00:39:22,422
And they will fall out of the market and new participants in Africa and all over the world will replace them at lower cost energy.

508
00:39:23,782 --> 00:39:25,422
Yeah, I absolutely agree.

509
00:39:25,562 --> 00:39:34,442
And in the long run, I mean, when after 2140, if you have a Bitcoin stack, you're incentivized to mine just to secure your stack.

510
00:39:34,622 --> 00:39:36,822
Like there are so many other incentives to mine.

511
00:39:37,102 --> 00:39:44,062
And there is stranded energy is the obvious one, like where mining is a sort of a byproduct of what you're trying to do anyway.

512
00:39:44,062 --> 00:39:51,142
so there will always be enough incentives the only the only real risk i see is something

513
00:39:51,142 --> 00:39:57,482
mechanic i talked to mechanic about the other week which is something i had really hadn't thought too

514
00:39:57,482 --> 00:40:03,622
much about and that is the the the fact that the hash rate is so high now if all of those miners

515
00:40:03,622 --> 00:40:10,302
went offline at the same time so you have a great drop in a hash rate and you don't know when they

516
00:40:10,302 --> 00:40:15,362
will come online again and you don't know where they will allocate that's that's sort of a risk

517
00:40:15,362 --> 00:40:21,922
thing but anyway i i wanted to pick your brain about the is the specific game theory here in

518
00:40:21,922 --> 00:40:28,422
this scenario sorry for bringing this up again but like just to hear your views on because the the way

519
00:40:28,422 --> 00:40:37,122
bip 110 could be bypassed by the miner like if it's if this is about user activated soft forks

520
00:40:37,122 --> 00:40:40,262
or minority softforks in general and how they play out.

521
00:40:40,782 --> 00:40:45,642
So if the movement is small enough, the miners can just ignore it.

522
00:40:45,642 --> 00:40:49,502
But if enough nodes are signaling for it,

523
00:40:49,822 --> 00:40:55,082
then they run a real risk of losing income by ignoring it.

524
00:40:55,482 --> 00:40:58,262
So the question becomes, where's the threshold

525
00:40:58,262 --> 00:41:03,622
and what lessons do you learn afterwards about decentralization and security?

526
00:41:03,622 --> 00:41:08,302
Like, how do you see the game, the prisoner's dilemma thing playing out?

527
00:41:08,522 --> 00:41:13,082
I'm sure you heard it described as a prisoner's dilemma type scenario.

528
00:41:13,322 --> 00:41:16,362
The one miner starts signaling and then the other follows.

529
00:41:17,682 --> 00:41:23,162
Yeah, and I think that's exactly, I think that's happened in the last one too, in PIP 144.

530
00:41:24,342 --> 00:41:26,502
If enough, that's the question.

531
00:41:26,962 --> 00:41:29,542
Do enough people know? Do enough people activate?

532
00:41:29,542 --> 00:41:35,162
And I want to be careful here because they might know the same things you do, right?

533
00:41:35,342 --> 00:41:36,502
Same things I do.

534
00:41:36,842 --> 00:41:40,842
And they might not feel totally secure with the solution yet.

535
00:41:41,222 --> 00:41:48,882
So, and people on PIP 110 knock Giacomo for this, right?

536
00:41:49,042 --> 00:41:52,322
And people in core knock Giacomo for not taking a stance.

537
00:41:52,662 --> 00:41:54,622
And I love the guy, right?

538
00:41:54,622 --> 00:41:57,922
And I love Mechanic.

539
00:41:57,922 --> 00:42:02,002
And I love a whole bunch of people across the entire spectrum.

540
00:42:02,622 --> 00:42:07,382
And you can disagree with one of the things, but still the overall body of evidence of

541
00:42:07,382 --> 00:42:08,642
their work and everything else.

542
00:42:08,922 --> 00:42:14,962
And what I think certain people are saying is it's not ready for me yet, but I like the

543
00:42:14,962 --> 00:42:16,842
people, I like what they stand for.

544
00:42:17,062 --> 00:42:18,742
And I know another battle's coming.

545
00:42:18,942 --> 00:42:24,962
Some people are in that camp or not ready yet to be able to, what's the solution?

546
00:42:25,122 --> 00:42:26,742
Not just the immediate solution.

547
00:42:26,742 --> 00:42:32,382
What's the solution to make sure that stays decentralized and secure and they're not there yet?

548
00:42:32,562 --> 00:42:42,502
And I think on BIP 110's side, that what you just said is we have to get enough people over this because it matters so much.

549
00:42:42,742 --> 00:42:51,842
And from that view, it does, right, to say decentralized and secure, but might be pushing away some of those people because they're asking a different question.

550
00:42:51,842 --> 00:42:57,682
They're asking, how do we resolve this on a longer term basis?

551
00:42:57,862 --> 00:42:58,802
And what does this look like?

552
00:42:58,822 --> 00:42:59,822
Am I ready to jump now?

553
00:43:00,122 --> 00:43:04,882
So I actually think when I say the reflexive action, I think there's way more people in

554
00:43:04,882 --> 00:43:08,042
the middle here and there's on the edges and it requires all of it.

555
00:43:08,122 --> 00:43:12,482
It requires people that are fighting hard, right, on both sides.

556
00:43:12,582 --> 00:43:15,982
But there's way more people in the middle looking to what does Bitcoin mean to them

557
00:43:15,982 --> 00:43:16,642
in this?

558
00:43:16,642 --> 00:43:32,307
And on both sides they getting pushed away by the nonsense of the edges But if I just take your point at face value if I just say just the game theory of more people voting their interests

559
00:43:32,547 --> 00:43:36,667
if their interests are that decentralized and secure,

560
00:43:36,947 --> 00:43:39,807
obviously helps whatever that side.

561
00:43:41,747 --> 00:43:46,207
Yeah, we'll see in a couple of weeks here what happens, I guess.

562
00:43:46,207 --> 00:43:53,427
And I think it's very hard to draw any conclusions from the numbers we see now because they're sort of irrelevant.

563
00:43:54,167 --> 00:44:00,627
It's when push comes to shove, that's when miners are actually incentivized to not show their cards until the very last minute.

564
00:44:00,947 --> 00:44:02,687
So we'll see.

565
00:44:03,367 --> 00:44:04,347
Yeah, we'll see.

566
00:44:04,587 --> 00:44:11,907
And I think my thing on this is there is a whole bunch of really critical people.

567
00:44:12,607 --> 00:44:14,287
Bitcoin's bigger than all of us.

568
00:44:14,287 --> 00:44:16,447
It's more important than all this.

569
00:44:16,747 --> 00:44:32,347
But there's a whole bunch of people that I consider really critical for Bitcoin and that are really great voices that I don't want to see their voices diminish in something that they may end up being on something that is the wrong side.

570
00:44:32,707 --> 00:44:35,227
Not the wrong side, but the wrong side right now.

571
00:44:35,567 --> 00:44:38,547
And many more battles are coming.

572
00:44:40,387 --> 00:44:42,387
Yeah, I'm sure of that, too.

573
00:44:42,387 --> 00:44:44,367
Like this will be a constant battle.

574
00:44:44,487 --> 00:44:48,827
It's like that Reagan quote, like freedom is for every generation to fight for.

575
00:44:48,967 --> 00:44:54,587
Otherwise, we will get sneakily co-opted by the so-called elites.

576
00:44:55,067 --> 00:45:04,767
And again, but the irony of that statement, what you just said, the crazy irony is we're talking about co-opted from the elites.

577
00:45:04,887 --> 00:45:07,107
Well, we're giving them more of their energy.

578
00:45:08,247 --> 00:45:11,307
So it's our choice to live in that matrix.

579
00:45:11,307 --> 00:45:14,067
And we think it's somebody else and it's us.

580
00:45:14,067 --> 00:45:19,807
And so the only real break to that, the only real break at this down to the sand is move

581
00:45:19,807 --> 00:45:24,627
your time and attention to the honest network, spend more money in the honest network, remove

582
00:45:24,627 --> 00:45:28,267
it from the dishonest network as much as you can.

583
00:45:28,267 --> 00:45:32,067
And from from that view and realize most of your friends won't.

584
00:45:32,067 --> 00:45:34,927
They might even say they will, but they won't.

585
00:45:34,927 --> 00:45:38,687
No, then that's absolutely true.

586
00:45:38,687 --> 00:45:43,827
And that's also why I advocate first and foremost for people to accept Bitcoin for their goods

587
00:45:43,827 --> 00:45:44,827
and services.

588
00:45:44,827 --> 00:45:47,807
Like the revolution doesn't happen before that.

589
00:45:47,807 --> 00:45:51,347
Spending is fine, but accepting is the real deal here.

590
00:45:51,347 --> 00:45:53,927
Otherwise there's no, there's nothing to spend it on.

591
00:45:53,927 --> 00:45:55,367
Like it starts with.

592
00:45:55,367 --> 00:46:04,067
And so what you, what can you do as a business and that, and what, to what, to that.

593
00:46:04,067 --> 00:46:15,127
I funded a business building apps and I funded it because my daughter's boyfriend wanted to mentor him and create this.

594
00:46:15,387 --> 00:46:19,527
Well, every app he builds, he gets into the app store and everything else.

595
00:46:19,527 --> 00:46:24,067
And then the apps he builds, he adds lightning to it at a way lower cost.

596
00:46:24,787 --> 00:46:30,167
And he does that to essentially, he needs that app to work.

597
00:46:30,167 --> 00:46:34,187
So you have these locked in systems and Google and Apple, right?

598
00:46:34,247 --> 00:46:42,527
And he has to get into the system, but then he has a different way in to add lightning to be able to get the app way cheaper.

599
00:46:42,647 --> 00:46:43,727
And he does it on every app.

600
00:46:44,267 --> 00:46:51,927
And that type of momentum creates an incentive for people to use Bitcoin because it's cheaper for them.

601
00:46:52,307 --> 00:46:57,347
And that type of idea, I love the idea because it moves Bitcoin.

602
00:46:57,347 --> 00:47:00,867
It's a tiny little thing right now, but it could grow and it's good.

603
00:47:00,867 --> 00:47:04,067
And all of these impacts move more of the economy to Bitcoin.

604
00:47:04,587 --> 00:47:05,587
Yeah, that's wonderful.

605
00:47:05,587 --> 00:47:12,907
I think it was in I heard BTC Sessions say in Prague that he had he used to have discounts

606
00:47:12,907 --> 00:47:16,867
for people using Bitcoin for his services instead of fiat.

607
00:47:17,187 --> 00:47:18,867
But he's changed that model completely.

608
00:47:18,867 --> 00:47:26,027
And now he punishes people using fiat by adding 50% cost for like that's your that's your fiat

609
00:47:26,027 --> 00:47:33,567
usage punishment fee and i really like that framing totally yeah and bt says then is like

610
00:47:33,567 --> 00:47:39,227
is one of like he's excellent in this regard we know many friends who are excellent in this regard

611
00:47:39,227 --> 00:47:45,207
they spend they they accept they and and they'll they'll they'll give a framework for other people

612
00:47:45,207 --> 00:47:51,027
to understand and do this do the same and then more people will copy it yeah it's like that

613
00:47:51,027 --> 00:47:55,587
that thing we talked about in madeira when we did the whole free madeira thing that it's more

614
00:47:55,587 --> 00:48:01,707
important to properly orange pill one restaurant on a street than to try to orange pill all of them.

615
00:48:01,986 --> 00:48:06,307
Because if one can set a good example, then all the others will follow because all the

616
00:48:06,307 --> 00:48:11,407
Bitcoiners go there and spend their money. So they'll be more profitable. They'll make more

617
00:48:11,407 --> 00:48:16,807
money because everybody goes to the restaurant. They want to support with their money.

618
00:48:16,807 --> 00:48:27,327
yeah absolutely all right this conversation has taken a lot of turns where do you want to go next

619
00:48:27,327 --> 00:48:34,627
like what else what else are you excited about at the moment in in bitcoin or in anything else

620
00:48:34,627 --> 00:48:41,547
yeah no no it's i i think i see this evolution playing out over and over and over and again

621
00:48:41,547 --> 00:48:54,127
And the simple thing is, and until we change or a majority of even a strong minority changes and is always spending in Bitcoin, that'll drag the rest of the people over because they'll show what's happening.

622
00:48:54,127 --> 00:48:59,007
That is the reflexive action of this nonsensical system creating value.

623
00:48:59,507 --> 00:49:06,486
And the value gained, that expression or that view of what's happening is just very early and is playing out.

624
00:49:06,567 --> 00:49:08,547
It's going to feel chaotic.

625
00:49:08,547 --> 00:49:14,547
I think the because we I said at the beginning we should probably come back to it.

626
00:49:14,547 --> 00:49:22,127
You know, my my speech and in Vegas, right, and how I talked about Bitcoin as a protocol

627
00:49:22,127 --> 00:49:27,627
and that nugget of what Bitcoin is, a decentralization security and the way that works is a critical

628
00:49:27,627 --> 00:49:29,187
part or critical part.

629
00:49:29,187 --> 00:49:34,047
But a protocol comes in layers and delivers more functionality through through.

630
00:49:34,047 --> 00:49:42,007
And then then Saylor put an article out that was very different than my framing of that that took it back into digital capital.

631
00:49:42,007 --> 00:49:51,767
Essentially, he borrowed my framing, but changed all of the the new the the framing to something that looked completely different.

632
00:49:52,427 --> 00:49:58,226
And and again, it's just fascinating to to to watch the very same thing with the nuance.

633
00:49:58,227 --> 00:50:04,087
And everybody believes in or many people believed in that framing because it matches their digital capital.

634
00:50:04,087 --> 00:50:10,607
Let's let's just look at what that let's look at STRC and through a lens of what's happening in the market today.

635
00:50:11,027 --> 00:50:13,887
And so you offer 11 and a half percent interest rate.

636
00:50:14,207 --> 00:50:18,427
And many Bitcoiners will sell their Bitcoin and take the 11 percent interest rate.

637
00:50:18,767 --> 00:50:19,927
Are they bad people?

638
00:50:20,347 --> 00:50:21,267
No, they're not bad people.

639
00:50:21,467 --> 00:50:27,787
Their prices are going their prices are going up and in in in term and fiat dominated terms.

640
00:50:27,787 --> 00:50:29,827
and they're trying to keep up with the prices rising.

641
00:50:30,147 --> 00:50:32,507
And so if you offer them that dollar,

642
00:50:32,627 --> 00:50:33,887
they'll take the short-term dollar

643
00:50:33,887 --> 00:50:37,907
and believe they're safe inside that.

644
00:50:38,167 --> 00:50:38,887
What does that do?

645
00:50:39,007 --> 00:50:39,767
Now it creates a lie.

646
00:50:39,847 --> 00:50:41,407
Where does the interest get paid from?

647
00:50:41,807 --> 00:50:43,127
Because Bitcoin doesn't allow it.

648
00:50:43,207 --> 00:50:44,967
It doesn't have any interest, right?

649
00:50:45,347 --> 00:50:46,567
Prices fall against it.

650
00:50:47,607 --> 00:50:53,227
And so you've taken Bitcoiners into SDRC

651
00:50:53,227 --> 00:50:56,207
and then more and more and more.

652
00:50:56,207 --> 00:51:07,667
And so you've created more of a liability that then you have to either sell shares in that that vehicle to be able to raise the cash, to be able to dilute shareholders to pay to pay that or sell Bitcoin.

653
00:51:07,667 --> 00:51:11,587
And both things put a drag on Bitcoin price as you're doing it.

654
00:51:11,587 --> 00:51:13,447
So it creates the opposite flywheel.

655
00:51:13,667 --> 00:51:25,387
I put something on Noster a while back, but I said, if the treasury companies don't understand Bitcoin's money, right, the only way they're going to get away with what they're doing is for the real economy to accept Bitcoin.

656
00:51:25,387 --> 00:51:34,667
Because the underlying thesis of the 40, 45% IRR that they're building their model on fails in less Bitcoin's money.

657
00:51:36,986 --> 00:51:43,047
So the very same thing, and you can see it through human action, naturally people will take that.

658
00:51:43,226 --> 00:51:44,267
They won't spend it.

659
00:51:44,367 --> 00:51:48,827
It'll create a liability, which creates sell pressure on Bitcoin as you do this.

660
00:51:49,127 --> 00:51:50,247
Lots of people will do that.

661
00:51:50,247 --> 00:52:15,271
And so if I were Sailor in that case I would be funding the ecosystem of this being decentralized and secure and its money and privacy tech and everything else I would be driving into open source to make sure this is money instead of what he doing because it the only thing that allows his vehicle to be able to have an IRR that he has in building his financial model

662
00:52:15,891 --> 00:52:23,851
And now going back to him borrowing my four versions of people, the system changing it back

663
00:52:23,851 --> 00:52:26,591
to digital capital, it's nonsense, right?

664
00:52:26,591 --> 00:52:32,251
What I said is Bitcoin is decentralized and secure, and that's the protocol layer at the base.

665
00:52:32,491 --> 00:52:38,591
And layers on top extend through different use cases without the base layer failing.

666
00:52:38,731 --> 00:52:40,211
It stays decentralized and secure.

667
00:52:40,511 --> 00:52:47,851
And that layers on top like Lightning or Spark or ARK, and the number of layers to provide this as money.

668
00:52:47,951 --> 00:52:49,111
You could take any one of them.

669
00:52:49,211 --> 00:52:52,671
You could say Spark is more centralized underneath that.

670
00:52:52,671 --> 00:53:00,511
But coordinated with lightning and arc and other other things, then it's then it's there's no one single choke point.

671
00:53:00,511 --> 00:53:03,611
then through things like

672
00:53:03,611 --> 00:53:05,731
Fediment and Cashew and adding

673
00:53:05,731 --> 00:53:07,851
privacy on top of this. If we think

674
00:53:07,851 --> 00:53:09,371
that the wars are coming now

675
00:53:09,371 --> 00:53:11,531
and you can see how

676
00:53:11,531 --> 00:53:13,671
Clarity Act and all of these things are

677
00:53:13,671 --> 00:53:15,351
moving to stablecoins, which

678
00:53:15,351 --> 00:53:17,671
is more and more people

679
00:53:17,671 --> 00:53:19,811
giving their energy into a system

680
00:53:19,811 --> 00:53:21,471
that steals from them, that system

681
00:53:21,471 --> 00:53:23,671
has to still attack Bitcoin and it has

682
00:53:23,671 --> 00:53:24,631
to do it through

683
00:53:24,631 --> 00:53:27,251
forgetting this battle right now,

684
00:53:27,551 --> 00:53:29,311
the next battle. What if you were

685
00:53:29,311 --> 00:53:31,331
what if you were a public node, right?

686
00:53:31,571 --> 00:53:33,871
A Bitcoin that is staying decentralized and secure

687
00:53:33,871 --> 00:53:35,251
or wanting to spend a Bitcoin

688
00:53:35,251 --> 00:53:37,171
and it had to go through something

689
00:53:37,171 --> 00:53:38,471
that wasn't truly private

690
00:53:38,471 --> 00:53:40,211
that could be captured.

691
00:53:40,451 --> 00:53:41,651
You know it will be captured.

692
00:53:42,011 --> 00:53:42,871
And so it requires,

693
00:53:43,111 --> 00:53:44,831
so some of the different layers,

694
00:53:45,071 --> 00:53:46,131
not in another coin,

695
00:53:46,391 --> 00:53:49,191
require privacy to be able to be built on top.

696
00:53:49,451 --> 00:53:53,111
So this is a critical step

697
00:53:53,111 --> 00:53:54,831
as Bitcoin moves forward.

698
00:53:55,131 --> 00:53:56,811
It's playing a long game,

699
00:53:57,071 --> 00:53:59,051
but what ends up happening again

700
00:53:59,051 --> 00:54:04,371
in the free market is people who are ahead of where the market is going and build the

701
00:54:04,371 --> 00:54:11,351
things we need before we know we need them generally do well by delivering us what we

702
00:54:11,351 --> 00:54:13,231
didn't know we needed.

703
00:54:13,231 --> 00:54:22,171
I mean, this is also part of why I don't trust the big players or why I trust them

704
00:54:22,171 --> 00:54:28,571
less than your random anon on Twitter that is mining in the desert somewhere.

705
00:54:28,571 --> 00:54:35,351
As soon as you grow too big, there is a risk of being captured by the fiat system in one way or another.

706
00:54:36,171 --> 00:54:37,391
And that's so scary.

707
00:54:37,631 --> 00:54:48,171
So how do you prevent yourself from being captured by the fiat system as you grow and as you get into bigger and bigger sums of money?

708
00:54:50,831 --> 00:54:53,671
So are you talking me, myself?

709
00:54:53,671 --> 00:54:55,771
No, more in general.

710
00:54:55,771 --> 00:54:58,571
Like it's not a personal question.

711
00:54:58,571 --> 00:55:00,551
It's more how do you view that?

712
00:55:00,651 --> 00:55:12,151
Like what's the best defense against state attacks as you grow as a business, as a person, as an entity, as an economic entity, say, so to not be captured by the fiat system.

713
00:55:13,831 --> 00:55:18,191
So let's use instead of me right now, let's use an example from today.

714
00:55:18,191 --> 00:55:27,311
I don't know when you're going to publish this, but Jack Mauler's 21 Capital and Tether was the CEO of 21 Capital.

715
00:55:27,531 --> 00:55:29,051
He just stepped down, right?

716
00:55:29,351 --> 00:55:30,631
Yeah, I saw that today.

717
00:55:31,831 --> 00:55:33,631
Who today resigned.

718
00:55:33,831 --> 00:55:37,491
And people have been asking me for a long time what Jack is going to do.

719
00:55:38,171 --> 00:55:40,291
And I couldn't tell them.

720
00:55:40,391 --> 00:55:45,731
But what I said over and over and over again is Jack is a friend, a really good human being.

721
00:55:45,731 --> 00:55:51,151
and I think as he understands this, he's going to do what's right for himself and Bitcoin. He is

722
00:55:51,151 --> 00:55:56,391
not going to take the money. But I can't say that. And if he took the money, it's not like lots of

723
00:55:56,391 --> 00:56:02,551
people take the money. Most people will take the money. And so what he just did by resigning from

724
00:56:02,551 --> 00:56:09,751
21 is in a version of my integrity is not for sale. And he might have been in before that,

725
00:56:09,871 --> 00:56:15,451
he might have thought, okay, I can change the system from there. He might have believed like,

726
00:56:15,451 --> 00:56:19,731
I'm not going to change and I'm going to press and I'm going to change it from within here.

727
00:56:20,031 --> 00:56:23,011
And when, and I suspect, I don't know this at all.

728
00:56:23,091 --> 00:56:27,391
I haven't talked to him yet, but I suspect that when he realized he couldn't change it

729
00:56:27,391 --> 00:56:30,011
from within that structure, he had a choice to make.

730
00:56:30,131 --> 00:56:34,091
And he made the choice that is lined with his principles and Bitcoin.

731
00:56:34,411 --> 00:56:36,511
And I love him for it.

732
00:56:36,751 --> 00:56:38,711
Will that choice happen again in the end?

733
00:56:38,791 --> 00:56:39,491
Will it happen to me?

734
00:56:39,571 --> 00:56:41,131
Will it happen to everyone?

735
00:56:41,291 --> 00:56:43,611
It'll happen to everyone over and over and over again.

736
00:56:43,611 --> 00:56:45,091
And everyone's going to face that choice.

737
00:56:45,451 --> 00:57:09,131
No, and it's a beautiful example. Like, I was very happy to see that. It's a sign of strength, in my opinion. I mean, I just watched the video once. I don't know any nuances of it. I didn't know very much about 21, except that it's a Wall Street thing, and it smelled like Fiat. If it smells like Fiat, it's probably Fiat.

738
00:57:09,131 --> 00:57:14,711
But yeah, changing things from the inside is very hard.

739
00:57:14,871 --> 00:57:20,171
I mean, I was in Bedford earlier this year and visited Peter McCormack for his conference there.

740
00:57:20,171 --> 00:57:28,351
And he told the story about him trying to go into politics and changing the local Bedford politics.

741
00:57:28,731 --> 00:57:36,391
But he sort of gave up on it because it was horrible and all too bureaucratic and big to do anything, really.

742
00:57:36,391 --> 00:57:43,371
and and uh yeah the bitcoin has told them that already but yeah so this is the same thing that

743
00:57:43,371 --> 00:57:49,891
happened to me with in canada right and i tried really hard from the inside from from political

744
00:57:49,891 --> 00:57:55,811
institutions to to move this and from my book to everything else to speaking to going and i just

745
00:57:55,811 --> 00:58:02,051
realized i'm just wasting my time it's my or or not that you wouldn't change one person or two

746
00:58:02,051 --> 00:58:06,691
people. But the infrastructure and everything else that came from that system protected

747
00:58:06,691 --> 00:58:10,951
that system and that and that system came from broken money and all of that came from

748
00:58:10,951 --> 00:58:16,431
and there was not there was no taking it out. It had to be a different system design and

749
00:58:16,431 --> 00:58:20,971
it had to be some more of my energy needed to go into the new new system. But it took

750
00:58:20,971 --> 00:58:22,831
me a long time to figure that out.

751
00:58:22,831 --> 00:58:28,791
Yeah, it took me half my life. I'd say like that. But it is the sly roundabout way that

752
00:58:28,791 --> 00:58:33,791
Hayek talked about. It is exactly that. It has to be that. It cannot be anything else.

753
00:58:33,791 --> 00:58:37,691
We need to build the tools to route around the thing. Otherwise, the thing will not go

754
00:58:37,691 --> 00:58:43,651
away from it. It cannot be changed from the inside. It's like the empire has to fall.

755
00:58:43,651 --> 00:58:49,071
Darth Vader has to convert back to the to the light side of the force. Like there's

756
00:58:49,071 --> 00:58:51,111
no getting around that.

757
00:58:51,111 --> 00:58:58,491
It's so interesting because when you when you realize that, and this is why

758
00:58:58,491 --> 00:59:02,891
privacy is going to be critical. It's going to be critical to provide a look at what's happening.

759
00:59:03,211 --> 00:59:08,631
And just speaking of Jack, he tried to do a lightning transaction in, or somebody tried to

760
00:59:08,631 --> 00:59:14,951
do a lightning transaction in the UK and it flagged and said, you can't do this until your KYC light.

761
00:59:15,551 --> 00:59:23,691
And so you can see the government reaching in everywhere because it has to just try to stop

762
00:59:23,691 --> 00:59:43,811
And so you have to have the other tech that is privacy to be able to stop that intrusion on your individual rights and freedoms because it's coming. And why is it coming? Because you have productivity exploding, which means prices should be falling at a crazy rate. And the existing system has to capture that productivity and then some.

763
00:59:43,811 --> 00:59:53,591
And so every minute you're spending in the existing system, you're contributing to this thing, taking your individual rights and freedoms, but you don't know it. You think it's somebody else.

764
00:59:55,531 --> 01:00:12,091
No, I agree completely. I mean, it's like when you see people topple those surveillance cameras in big cities and like, oh, here's the revolution. They don't realize that they're paying for the new cameras. Like they're just reinforcing that they're making the system stronger by trying to fight it.

765
01:00:12,091 --> 01:00:22,331
Yeah, they go home, sleep at night, and there's all new cameras the next day from the money that was printed to be able to pay them that came from those same people.

766
01:00:22,671 --> 01:00:26,351
There is no escape from the system holding you captive.

767
01:00:26,691 --> 01:00:33,531
You have to choose the new system and then choose by spending and contributing your time to the new system.

768
01:00:34,531 --> 01:00:36,251
Yeah, you have to opt out.

769
01:00:36,491 --> 01:00:37,871
There is no other way.

770
01:00:37,871 --> 01:00:50,815
So which brings us all the way back to it our individual responsibility each of our individual responsibility And it not what somebody else does They can do whatever they want

771
01:00:50,995 --> 01:00:57,775
It's our individual responsibility to move our time and from there.

772
01:00:57,875 --> 01:01:07,495
But you can also see why this is going to be so hard and it's going to play many, many battles from here and in the future because we haven't lived with that responsibility before.

773
01:01:07,495 --> 01:01:13,015
it's it's way easier to believe somebody else is to blame than us no exactly it's the spider-man

774
01:01:13,015 --> 01:01:17,295
thing like with great powers comes great responsibility there's like no there's no way

775
01:01:17,295 --> 01:01:23,455
to route around that so i'm curious the word bitcoiner like what does that mean to you what

776
01:01:23,455 --> 01:01:28,915
is a bitcoiner is how much of a purity test do you have to go through to call yourself a bitcoiner

777
01:01:28,915 --> 01:01:35,555
like so i again i don't like there's there's just levels of understanding of this and there

778
01:01:35,555 --> 01:01:37,315
levels of understanding for me.

779
01:01:38,035 --> 01:01:39,635
So I don't think

780
01:01:39,635 --> 01:01:41,275
once you have a label,

781
01:01:41,615 --> 01:01:43,635
so what ends up in group, out

782
01:01:43,635 --> 01:01:45,555
group bias, you can see it in

783
01:01:45,555 --> 01:01:47,375
the BIP 110 quarter debate right now.

784
01:01:47,475 --> 01:01:49,295
These people are good, these people are bad.

785
01:01:49,475 --> 01:01:50,815
And all nuance is gone,

786
01:01:51,655 --> 01:01:53,735
not realizing that there's good people,

787
01:01:53,895 --> 01:01:55,615
mostly good people on both sides

788
01:01:55,615 --> 01:01:57,515
of this. So I think the label

789
01:01:57,515 --> 01:01:58,615
itself and then

790
01:01:58,615 --> 01:02:01,515
the irony of the label

791
01:02:01,515 --> 01:02:03,935
is most Bitcoiners

792
01:02:03,935 --> 01:02:10,695
are still contributing most of their time to the fiat world, while at the same time yelling at those

793
01:02:10,695 --> 01:02:20,375
other people who don't understand it. That's the critical irony in this. So the consensus mechanism

794
01:02:20,375 --> 01:02:27,475
and how we're moving through this new paradigm is I try to fight against labels because I know

795
01:02:27,475 --> 01:02:32,515
the labels can capture us. I belong to this group and this group is different than this group and I

796
01:02:32,515 --> 01:02:38,095
wouldn't belong to this group unless I thought it was better than that group. So I don't think

797
01:02:38,095 --> 01:02:45,335
there is a universal right now what a Bitcoin era is. That's a good answer. I like that answer.

798
01:02:45,935 --> 01:02:51,555
But I still think you know one when you see one like John Attack, for instance, in El Salvador,

799
01:02:51,695 --> 01:02:56,375
is obviously a Bitcoiner like through and through living on a Bitcoin standard,

800
01:02:56,375 --> 01:03:01,395
contributing to Bitcoin in many ways and just doing all the things.

801
01:03:01,935 --> 01:03:05,615
I mean, the way I see it, you can always become a little bit more of a Bitcoiner.

802
01:03:05,895 --> 01:03:10,175
There is like, the rabbit hole is literally bottomless.

803
01:03:10,275 --> 01:03:12,895
You can always stumble down further into it.

804
01:03:13,115 --> 01:03:17,795
There's like endless, which is why I never get bored with doing content like this.

805
01:03:17,795 --> 01:03:24,095
I don't get bored with it because there are new things to explore forever and things we

806
01:03:24,095 --> 01:03:24,935
haven't figured out yet.

807
01:03:24,935 --> 01:03:29,935
It's such a vast ocean of new things or new ways to look at the world.

808
01:03:30,155 --> 01:03:32,535
So who knows where it will go.

809
01:03:34,395 --> 01:03:37,115
Yeah, so that I agree with completely.

810
01:03:37,815 --> 01:03:45,555
And when you see the change in you through this, you wonder how many other changes that you don't see yet.

811
01:03:45,735 --> 01:03:45,835
Right.

812
01:03:46,195 --> 01:03:49,855
So I used to believe this.

813
01:03:49,935 --> 01:03:50,875
Here was my pattern.

814
01:03:51,215 --> 01:03:52,655
And I believed it completely.

815
01:03:52,655 --> 01:03:57,555
Now I see something totally different, produces different results.

816
01:03:57,795 --> 01:03:59,455
And I believe it, right?

817
01:03:59,695 --> 01:04:01,295
What else don't I see?

818
01:04:01,615 --> 01:04:02,655
What are the...

819
01:04:03,635 --> 01:04:11,215
And so I think what you'll find with a lot of people in Bitcoin is they're so curious about that.

820
01:04:11,335 --> 01:04:12,795
And they're constantly curious.

821
01:04:13,375 --> 01:04:18,975
They're willing to hold on to an idea, but they're also subject to, wait, my idea could be wrong too.

822
01:04:19,115 --> 01:04:22,015
And there might be a different way to attack this.

823
01:04:22,015 --> 01:04:34,595
So it's such an interesting going back to if you went back to a group of people, the people that are there inside this overall, overall are generally maybe I'm doing the same thing right now.

824
01:04:34,595 --> 01:04:40,075
But curious about the way the world works and how their role is that.

825
01:04:40,995 --> 01:04:45,515
And especially for people who take further steps down the rabbit hole.

826
01:04:45,715 --> 01:04:48,115
Some people just stop and say, okay, I have this.

827
01:04:48,235 --> 01:04:52,435
I'm protecting my downside and a changing world.

828
01:04:52,435 --> 01:04:55,615
I'm just, it's an asset.

829
01:04:56,115 --> 01:05:02,135
For people who go further, I think they're like you, like John, like many.

830
01:05:02,135 --> 01:05:10,375
They're so curious about kind of how they fit into that and what that looks like and where that takes them.

831
01:05:10,555 --> 01:05:13,655
So it's just, personally, I love this.

832
01:05:13,895 --> 01:05:15,275
I'm the same as you.

833
01:05:15,395 --> 01:05:21,435
It's just such a fascinating ride to see what I didn't know, what I know now, where that's going to take things.

834
01:05:21,935 --> 01:05:23,215
Yeah, there's so much to learn.

835
01:05:23,215 --> 01:05:31,955
Is there something you've learned throughout this journey, like the last year, say, or like what's the latest new thing?

836
01:05:32,135 --> 01:05:36,635
you've learned from from being in Bitcoin and exploring the space.

837
01:05:39,635 --> 01:05:43,515
I guess what I would I'm going to say something different that if it's OK, the

838
01:05:43,515 --> 01:05:48,255
the what what I would expect in a world that has always told me how to live

839
01:05:48,255 --> 01:05:52,855
and is moving more and more into into AI and adoption,

840
01:05:52,855 --> 01:05:56,255
I would expect the very nature of my reality

841
01:05:56,555 --> 01:06:01,295
to face pressure in beliefs that were inserted in me from somebody else.

842
01:06:02,135 --> 01:06:12,675
And the more I've spent time in social media, the more I've spent time in the fray of that, I would expect that more because the system would have to look like that.

843
01:06:13,015 --> 01:06:17,515
And there would have to be, forget advertising, forget kind of the manipulation of your mind.

844
01:06:17,755 --> 01:06:22,335
So which thoughts are mine and which thoughts have been inserted by somebody else?

845
01:06:22,435 --> 01:06:26,175
I would expect to face pressure on that constantly.

846
01:06:26,655 --> 01:06:29,135
So that would mean I would have to stay in quiet.

847
01:06:29,135 --> 01:06:33,855
I would have to have to really understand and think deeply about some of these things.

848
01:06:34,075 --> 01:06:38,715
But it would if that was true for me, it would be true for every other person I'd ever met

849
01:06:38,715 --> 01:06:41,775
because they're on their phones all the time.

850
01:06:42,175 --> 01:06:42,695
They're on TikTok.

851
01:06:43,115 --> 01:06:47,455
They're on all this stuff feeding back into the algorithms that are feeding on their time.

852
01:06:47,895 --> 01:06:53,515
And and so I guess what I would say is I'm aware that these things that are in the world

853
01:06:53,515 --> 01:06:56,175
that are in other people have to be in me, too.

854
01:06:56,175 --> 01:07:01,875
If I'm using the same technology, I'm using the same thing as this construct is changing.

855
01:07:02,295 --> 01:07:04,995
And that itself, that rabbit hole goes forever.

856
01:07:06,175 --> 01:07:06,255
Yeah.

857
01:07:06,435 --> 01:07:09,935
Do you ever take walks and stuff without your phone?

858
01:07:10,655 --> 01:07:12,315
So like, are you ever unavailable?

859
01:07:12,495 --> 01:07:12,895
All the time.

860
01:07:13,135 --> 01:07:14,995
Yeah, all the time.

861
01:07:15,175 --> 01:07:17,635
I meditate every day as well.

862
01:07:17,635 --> 01:07:25,315
I spend a fair amount of time in quiet and then try to try to get for myself, choose

863
01:07:25,315 --> 01:07:26,535
without the noise.

864
01:07:26,535 --> 01:07:29,315
What is it really all about?

865
01:07:29,315 --> 01:07:31,315
What's really important at the end of the day?

866
01:07:31,315 --> 01:07:32,795
I'm not going to be here forever.

867
01:07:32,795 --> 01:07:38,415
Did my impact touch other, with me being here, did it make a difference in other people's

868
01:07:38,415 --> 01:07:39,415
lives?

869
01:07:39,415 --> 01:07:40,415
Yeah.

870
01:07:40,415 --> 01:07:43,255
Questions that all too few ask themselves.

871
01:07:43,255 --> 01:07:44,255
Absolutely.

872
01:07:44,255 --> 01:07:45,255
Yeah.

873
01:07:45,255 --> 01:07:47,235
I mean, this has been a wonderful chat.

874
01:07:47,235 --> 01:07:51,475
I love talking to you, as you know, and I think the feeling is mutual.

875
01:07:51,635 --> 01:07:52,255
I hope it is.

876
01:07:52,735 --> 01:07:53,475
We have.

877
01:07:53,715 --> 01:07:55,235
It absolutely is.

878
01:07:55,975 --> 01:07:59,615
And we're looking forward to doing many more of this in the future.

879
01:07:59,975 --> 01:08:01,555
I don't know when I'll see you next.

880
01:08:01,715 --> 01:08:03,775
Maybe Helsinki, maybe El Salvador.

881
01:08:06,655 --> 01:08:08,855
Yeah, potentially Helsinki.

882
01:08:09,075 --> 01:08:09,575
I'm not sure.

883
01:08:09,675 --> 01:08:13,135
I'm not sure on that one yet, but that looks like a good one.

884
01:08:13,175 --> 01:08:14,835
Are you going to go to New Zealand?

885
01:08:15,295 --> 01:08:16,395
It looks like it, yes.

886
01:08:16,395 --> 01:08:18,695
So if not, how about Lugano?

887
01:08:18,855 --> 01:08:19,715
Are you planning on that one?

888
01:08:22,135 --> 01:08:23,715
Giacomo's asked me a bunch.

889
01:08:24,095 --> 01:08:25,335
When is Lugano?

890
01:08:25,635 --> 01:08:27,235
It's in the end of October.

891
01:08:27,415 --> 01:08:30,935
I'm flying back on the 25th, which is my 50th birthday.

892
01:08:31,095 --> 01:08:33,595
So you get to celebrate that a bit too if you go to Lugano.

893
01:08:33,955 --> 01:08:34,275
Wow.

894
01:08:34,615 --> 01:08:34,895
Wow.

895
01:08:36,115 --> 01:08:36,995
Kids today.

896
01:08:41,075 --> 01:08:42,835
Imagine Bitcoin's 50th birthday.

897
01:08:43,115 --> 01:08:43,915
That'll be something.

898
01:08:44,375 --> 01:08:44,855
Yeah.

899
01:08:44,855 --> 01:08:53,195
Yeah, so I think it's on the 23rd and the 24th of October, but there will be stuff going on there the week before and the week after.

900
01:08:53,795 --> 01:08:55,155
And it's a beautiful place.

901
01:08:55,235 --> 01:08:56,835
If you haven't been yet, you should see it.

902
01:08:56,835 --> 01:09:00,474
Yeah, I haven't been there yet, and I really need to go.

903
01:09:01,474 --> 01:09:01,675
Yeah.

904
01:09:02,115 --> 01:09:03,254
So maybe this is the year.

905
01:09:03,315 --> 01:09:03,754
We'll see.

906
01:09:03,754 --> 01:09:06,974
I know you're flying around just as much as me.

907
01:09:07,055 --> 01:09:08,375
I mean, even more, I guess.

908
01:09:08,375 --> 01:09:15,255
this this pinballing around the world takes its toll after a while you get conference fatigue

909
01:09:15,255 --> 01:09:20,355
but yeah all good uh is there anything we haven't talked about that you'd like to

910
01:09:20,355 --> 01:09:25,994
talk about no i think i think all good just until next time but it sure

911
01:09:26,139 --> 01:09:27,699
Sure was great seeing you, my friend.

912
01:09:28,159 --> 01:09:29,119
Right back at you.

913
01:09:29,379 --> 01:09:31,499
And yeah, see you in the next one.

914
01:09:31,599 --> 01:09:35,999
Where can people find more information about this orange juice thingy, by the way?

915
01:09:37,059 --> 01:09:38,719
Orangejuice.com is the website.

916
01:09:39,259 --> 01:09:45,159
And yeah, and if somebody has a business that might be interesting for this type of strategy,

917
01:09:45,319 --> 01:09:45,919
we'd love to.

918
01:09:46,919 --> 01:09:49,539
That domain wasn't taken, orangejuice.com?

919
01:09:51,119 --> 01:09:55,439
Yeah, isn't that awesome that we actually have orangejuice.com?

920
01:09:55,439 --> 01:09:57,839
I can't believe Tropicana doesn't own it.

921
01:09:58,519 --> 01:09:59,739
Did you buy it from Sailor?

922
01:09:59,859 --> 01:10:01,159
I mean, he used to collect those.

923
01:10:04,099 --> 01:10:06,259
Anyway, always great to see you, man.

924
01:10:06,479 --> 01:10:07,559
See you in the next one.

925
01:10:07,679 --> 01:10:11,019
Until then, this has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show Summer Edition.

926
01:10:11,659 --> 01:10:13,639
You should like, subscribe, and brush your teeth.

927
01:10:13,939 --> 01:10:15,319
And bye-bye for now.

928
01:10:15,639 --> 01:10:16,279
Thanks for listening.

929
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:55,419
Thank you.