Plan B Passports with Katie the Russian - Bitcoin Infinity Show #140

0:51 Katie, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Thank you for joining us. Absolutely happy to be here, guys. Yeah, happy to have you here, Katie. You were known as Katie the Russian, but I prefer to call you Katie the sailor. Nice. I like it. All right, since borders are bullshit anyway. Yeah, Katie, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. We haven't had you on before, which is, we're ashamed of that fact, so we'd like to give our listeners a TLDR on KT and Plan B passports. There's a lot of Plan Bs in Bitcoin, but this is Plan B passports. And can you tell our listeners your amazing, first of all, the amazing story about you, how you ended up doing what you're doing and what it is you're doing.

1:41 Absolutely. So, Katie, the Russian, you can probably guess that I was born and raised in Russia, and I moved to the U. S. just eight years ago, uh, as a professional athlete. I was in the national team of Russia in sailing, in the top 20 world ranking in sailing. So America decided that I'm good enough to live here and compete for America. So I got my green card here, um, through extraordinary abilities. And, uh, along the way, I got scammed by an immigration lawyer, so I had to self represent myself. I paid the lawyer, she quit answering my calls, she quit answering my emails, I was halfway through the process.

2:22 So I had to figure everything out from scratch, reach out to immigration units, uh, find my way to find my application number and everything. And I self represented. Well, as I was doing it, I realized that I'm kind of good at that stuff. And I was playing, already playing this game of jurisdictional arbitrage on a very small scale. Basically, I could open a bank account in the United States without a social security number. As a citizen, almost impossible to do. As a foreigner, quite easy though. Also with driver licenses. You get pulled over, you show them a foreign driver license, 90 percent chance they will never send the ticket. Because it just costs more to send the ticket to a foreign country than to not send the ticket at all and just let this Russian girl go.

3:09 So I was already playing this game and I was like, there must be more to this concept. I was already becoming a Bitcoiner, and then I stumbled upon this concept of flag theory. So the concept of flag theory, my definition of it, as a way to limit your dependency on any one particular state, By obtaining second citizenship, residency, etc. So, flags would be, there are different kinds of flags, like the most important flag, of course, is bitcoin, the cyberspace, and your money in cyberspace. But then, you have other instruments like, passport, aka citizenship, residency permit, bank account in a foreign country, a bug out home in a foreign country, and things like that.

3:53 So, uh, we stack sats and we stack flags, you can see it on my screen. That's beautiful. And I think, I think one question that comes to mind to many people when they hear flag theory is like, yeah, but that's just for the super rich, isn't it? So like, is flag theory for everyone or is it just for wealthy people? So originally it was definitely a game that only wealthy played, like, let's go 30 years back. The, the reason that flag theory actually came out is for asset protection, right? Because people realize they don't want to have all their money in the same basket. They want to have money offshore in case their home country jurisdiction comes after them and try to seize.

4:39 Well, now we have the best asset protection mechanism in the world called SHA 256, and guess what? Uh, we don't need the offshore bank accounts anymore. We have the better solution for that, but we still have, we still live in a physical space ourselves. So now the whole game of jurisdictional arbitrage and flat theory is more about the meat space, physical space. Like, for example, many of Bitcoiners talk about 6102, and while they can't come and seize your assets, they can come physically after you. So a lot of Bitcoiners just want to have this second country to call home in case they need it, and in case their passport gets revoked, they just want a way out.

5:28 So back then, the offshore accounts were clearly for ultra wealthy. Now, everybody wants to have this. Insurance policy, a residency permit, which can cost you less than 2, 000. Um, sometimes a real estate out of country, which for 20, 000, you might be able to buy land in Costa Rica and things like that. So it is much more pleb friendly these days, let's say that. Um, yeah, and that's what I've been doing for the last five years, helping Bitcoiners to stack flags, obtain second citizenship or residency for their benefit at. NBPassport. com, Yeah, the first time I talked to you about this, uh, I believe you, you, options were sort of, uh, mostly West Indian islands.

6:20 Like, like this was. Way back, that's maybe like four years back or something. So there's like Antigua and Barbuda, I think. And, uh, what was the other one? St. Kitts and Nevis or something is some, uh, Caribbean islands, yeah, yeah, but, but, uh, but there are plenty more options now, right? yeah, I obviously cater my offerings to Bitcoiners, like I see what Bitcoiners want, and I open up those programs for them. Caribbean islands are still the most popular jurisdictions in the world for citizenship by investment programs, simply because they've been around, they're trusted, they're strong passports. Very straightforward, um, unfortunately their processing time has been getting bigger and bigger, so it used to be like 5 6 months.

7:08 Now it's more like a year and a half. Um, so that's, that's a downside. But you guys definitely read Sovereign Individual. They talk a lot about the Sovereign Individual thesis, where the nation states will start competing for the citizens and the fruits of their labor and their capital by providing the better services at better price, right? So you've, I have a lot of hopium in this direction. This is what I live and breathe. So I hope more and more countries will get. On this, into this free market competition for citizens and capital and fruits of their labor. And once we have like this free market emerge, that's how we have two races, right?

7:50 The price race to the bottom and the quality race to the top. Um, just a regular free market behavior. So, right now, I work with 10 jurisdictions for citizenship by investment programs, and few are coming out, few are shutting down. It's a constant geopolitical battle, like, EU really doesn't like the citizenship by investment programs. Although Malta has one, Portugal has a golden visa through investment, Greece, Italy, like, they don't like that capital and talent has been leaving EU and they want to control it. So far, they're like trying to prevent new programs to come out and old programs to become stricter and more expensive, but that's all they can do.

8:38 And with EU losing power, I don't think we'll see them shutting anything down in the future. And Malta just won, um. In a, like, court, in a UN court, that they can, in fact, run this program, no problem. So, um, yeah, I'm catering to Bitcoiners. It's Caribbean islands of interest right now, Portugal is of interest, Turkey is of interest as well, and now, of course, El Salvador, the Bitcoin country, um, becoming a top, a large topic in the industry. I mean, a tip to anyone working with this stuff in the EU is, uh, uh, a way to not scare away all your talented, uh, citizens would be to not aim to be the Soviet Union 2.

9:24 0. That would be a good start. So, like, stop the bullshit, please. tell me about it. You mentioned Portugal there, uh, and Portugal's, the golden visa there has changed a lot, uh, I think, just, just in the last year here. Like, can you tell us more about that? Yeah, first of all, the price has been changing over the last five years, but also the requirements. So originally you could buy any half a million dollar plus real estate anywhere in Portugal and you would be eligible. Well, then they said, no, you cannot buy real estate in a highly populated areas like Lisbon, let's say. After that, they said, well, you can't actually invest in real estate anymore.

10:06 You can only invest. In a fund. Well, funds started investing in real estate, and they keep thinking that foreigners are the reason that, uh, real estate is going up. I don't think it necessarily is. They should ask BlackRock, they should ask all money printers around and maybe they'll find the reason why all the prices are going up. Anyway, now you have to invest in a fund and the fund has to invest at least 60 percent of their, of their full fund into local companies in Portugal. So now it is actually getting interesting because out of 100 percent fund, you can invest 40 percent straight into Bitcoin Self Custody.

10:48 And then 60 percent you can invest in a local company that runs the Sailors, Michael Sailors Playbook, where their whole balance sheet is in Bitcoin and their operational expenses are very low. So now you basically keep your full Bitcoin price exposure while obtaining a golden visa, and then after seven years you get your money back, you get the profits back, you pay 10 percent of the revenue. Performance fee to the fund and you have a citizenship at this point. So it's a really nice way to keep your Bitcoin price exposure while also obtaining Portugal citizenship. So it solves the opportunity cost of this of acquiring citizenship, which is great.

11:31 The biggest problem for my clients, right? And I get it. I'm a Bitcoin or Maxie too. So I understand that selling Bitcoin in order to buy citizenship hurts, but Portugal could be a good solution for that. yeah, Portugal is still in the EU, but we have an outermost region of the EU, which is, uh, Madeira and, um, similar. There's a handful of other islands that go in the same, same label that, uh, that are. Favorable to Bitcoiners. I mean, Madeira now has like almost 150 retailers except and restaurants and stuff, accepting Bitcoin. So that movement, uh, I was fortunate enough to, to, uh, start the whole thing off two years ago with this fantastic group of people and Bitcoin Atlantis was a big deal for, for us, uh, here, uh, in, when was it?

12:27 March, beginning of March. And since then, it's, it's just been growing and it's great to see. And with this, uh, golden visa opportunity being, being more and more, um, yeah, sounding better and better, Madeira sounds better than before. yeah, I now see a lot of interest towards Portugal. Let's see how it all realizes. I'm, I'm super into this whole micro Bitcoin economies. Like I just got back from El Salvador and I was at Bitcoin Beach and we could pay in Bitcoin for coffee. It was pretty sick. Um, just guys selling me local coffee and like, yeah, here's my QR code and the money.

13:09 Yeah. And, uh, it, it truly is global and you can experience that when you travel around. Like I paid for a shave in, in Buenos Aires, uh, two weeks ago. Like, can't tell, but, but I did it anyway. Um, So, so, uh, no, it's just great to see, uh, these small communities, um, growing. Uh, speaking of El Salvador, I'm going there in January. Are you coming too by any chance? I will really try. I've got lots of end of January. There's conference in the beginning of January though. Uh, is there, uh, yeah, I'm going to the plan, plan B is, no, it's the beginning of, uh, end of January. I, I Oh, that's nice.

13:50 Then I might actually be able to come at the end of January. Um, yeah, I, I definitely planning a few more trips. Um, I, I was supposed to go just for 48 hours to scoop some stuff for work. Um, and then I had to extend my trip for another two days so I could take a surf lesson and stuff. And it's an easy flight for me, it's two hours to our flight and I'm there. Uh, so the, I think it was like a half a year ago to a year ago that hel announced a new program, uh, for. That, that he, he would give away, um, citizenship to, to interesting people, basically, from all over the globe.

14:31 And there was another program, I mean, there was like a, a 1 million investment in the country would grant you citizenship, but there was also some other program. Do you have an update? Oh yeah, I can run you through all the immigration offerings that El Salvador has right now. Um, so, the easiest program, if you're just looking to relocate to El Salvador, you just need a residency permit, it's not necessarily that you want a passport. You come to El Salvador, you open up a company. As an entrepreneur, you are now eligible for a residency permit. Um, for your business activity in the country, you will actually have to spend 9 months in the country this year in order to renew your residency permit next year.

15:15 So for those just relocating to the Bitcoin country, that's a very easy solution. Cost under 2, 000, come and stay, live there for 5 years, after that apply for naturalization. Ask a language exam, get a passport. Takes five plus years, some paperwork, but suits those who want to relocate full time to El Salvador. Now then, they launched Citizenship by Investment program, which I'm a huge fan of. It is much higher price than anything in the industry right now, even higher than Malta. It is basically catered to those who want Who want to contribute to El Salvador? It's a 1 million for passport. It's the quickest processing time you see in the industry.

15:58 Under two months you can get the citizenship, go through the whole due diligence process. Uh, it is catered to those who wants to say, hey, I want a second citizenship that is a powerful passport because El Salvador grants you visa free access to EU, Schengen area, all of Latin America, some Eastern European countries that you don't have access to on your EU or American passport. All right. Um, but it is for those who like, look, I support what Bukele is doing. I see a great transformation in El Salvador and I want to contribute to that and get a passport. So, I'm a big fan of this program and, and I actually support this whole 1 million price check.

16:38 It is not a direct competition to other programs in the industry of citizenship by investment program, but it is a very unique thing that El Salvador can pull off quite easily. And then the new program that Naibu Kelly announced about six months ago on his Twitter that 5, 000 passports are going to be given to highly skilled professionals. So, it's again coming back to sovereign individual thesis. Like, of course they want to compete for your capital through citizenship by investment program. They want you to donate to the country. But now they also want to compete for the fruits of your labor and your building abilities. So they welcome highly skilled engineers, highly skilled doctors, philosophers.

17:22 Art and culture, um, uh, people to come and build a new El Salvador. I, you know, I immigrated to the United States through the skill based immigration. I've always thought skill based immigration is the coolest thing and we should really double down on that. Well, that's what El Salvador is doing. They have not launched this program just yet. Um, I think it's going to be very soon, probably in the next couple of months. Uh, and I'm really interested to see what kind of talent El Salvador is going to attract with this program. I no, this is, this is fantastic and I mean, El Salvador, El Salvador being of most interest to, to Bitcoiners here, right? Uh, uh, I mean, I think that program is, is going to be, um, uh, really of, of interest to, to, yeah, those of us in the Bitcoin community that really want to go there and, and, and move there and all this, but one, I guess, um, Maybe not a misconception or something about this, but one question I have is that this flag theory thing, does it necessarily always mean you have to move to the place, or is it like you say, this kind of backup or secondary option in case you can't manage to make it work in your home country?

18:37 basically see two opposites. So I see family men reaching out for Plan B passport for their kids and for their legacy. And then I see single Bitcoiners getting the hell out of their home country and relocating anywhere else. So I see both cases in my audience. Um, a lot of people, of course, are trying to relocate. Specifically, I would say everybody's leaving Canada and UK. Those are the two jurisdictions that everybody's getting out of. Coincidentally, that's, that's me. That's me. I'm, I'm, uh, I've left Canada and I live in Finland right now. That doesn't sound like I've made a, a, a, a, improvement necessarily, but, uh, I, Finland is much better than Canada in many re Anyway, continue.

19:20 We can return to that later. you gave up one cold country for another cold country. And Pretty much, but the, the weather is nicer in Helsinki where I, where I live than, uh, than Western Canada where I came from, but, uh, yeah, yeah, it's not about the have the biggest Nordic Bitcoin conference, aren't you? You got it. It's sort of the cat came out of the bag just yesterday. Welcome. Please, please come if you can make it. But yeah, Knut That's pretty cool. and I are actually involved in the organization. Oh, check out, I'm literally showing you guys on your own podcast. Yeah, we haven't talked about it too much, but yeah, glad to hear that the word has made it around.

20:02 But I'm pretty happy here, and I think the Canada EU thing is at least, uh, um, I'm keeping my options open anyway, but maybe I'll start working on the third passport, one of these days. so we haven't started chilling, chilling the BTC HELL conference on the show yet because the news just got out a couple of days ago at the time of recording here. So we're gonna, we're gonna talk a lot more about it in the upcoming months, I'm sure. But you're very welcome. Yeah.

22:08 Regarding the Canadians and Americans relocating to EU, I've actually been very busy lately with citizenship by descent programs as another path to second password. So, you know that America is a land of immigrants, so even if you were born in America or Canada, probably your grandparents came from somewhere in Europe, if not great grandparents. Well, all the EU countries have citizenship by descent programs available, depending on what kind of generation immigrated out of the country. So I've been just talking to all Bitcoiners, realizing that they have like Polish grandparents and Italian grandparents, and that qualifies them for citizenship in the EU.

22:51 They don't have to visit the country. They don't have to relocate. They can just. For free, get a second citizenship in the EU, and it may not be the desirable relocation destination for most Americans. But it is a very solid second citizenship in case of emergency. Very strong password. So that's why we launched the Plan B Passport just a couple months ago. We helped Bitcoiners to actually do genealogical search to find what was the name and date of birth and place of birth of their ancestor in the EU. So we have that option if you don't really know where your ancestors are coming from. And after that, we are able to retrieve all of their.

23:31 Documents, archives, and then submit the application on behalf of the applicant to get a second citizenship in a matter of eight to 36 months. So we've been really busy with that. That's a really cool offering and an easy sell for us. that sounds super cool. And I have to ask the follow-up question. Are there similar programs in West Africa? I would have to look into that. Yeah, I, I guess that would be trickier. Uh, or maybe not. Maybe it's easier, uh, even, uh. I will, I will look into that. That's not a common, common question. So I don't know the answer. So yeah, I'm catering to Bitcoiners. So if I, if I start hearing that question, I'll open up the program.

24:14 one, uh, country that comes to mind that I recently visited is Argentina. Uh, I know that there's, uh, getting a citizenship in Argentina is super cheap and pretty easy. You just have to spend some time there, basically. So, like, uh, do you have any, like, ideas about Argentina now that Melee is in power and all of that? Yeah, go to Argentina, have a baby, and get a citizenship in less than a year. That's the plan. I mean, it's a legit program, so, Argentina grants the rights. As citizenship by birth to the baby. So now parents of an Argentinian born child have a right to obtain citizenship too, and it takes like a year or two for them.

24:58 So, um, a lot of people starting to do this things called birth tourism, and they go to Latin American countries like Brazil, Argentina, have a baby there. and become a resident or then citizenship, citizens of the country. It's another way to establish a new flag. And, um, as somebody in my childbearing years, uh, I've been definitely thinking about it. And, uh, I guess then their, their grandchildren can potentially claim genealogy things and claim the, the old passport back that their grandparents had. Well, the child will, will get the citizenship of Argentina, will get a citizenship of basically both parents.

25:42 Whatever citizenship they hold. So, like, some children are born with three, four citizenships right away, um, and they never have to stack flags. We stacked on their behalf, I guess. here's a question, like, what do you think, uh, the whole, uh, pandemic circus, uh, did to, to this whole, uh, this whole movement, like, do you think it accelerated this? Uh, I mean, not only for people, because it obviously accelerated it for people, there are more digital nomads now than before. Uh, I mean, If I remember correctly, like, video conferencing wasn't really a thing before, before COVID, or before the lockdowns, I should say, because COVID wasn't big of a deal, the lockdowns were, uh, but still, uh, do you think that the nation states themselves have accelerated these, uh, things, uh, post COVID just to, to compete more for people?

26:44 So, nation states obviously also trying to meet the demand, right? Um, one thing you always have to do is follow the money. Whenever you talk about literally anything, so let's say Caribbean islands, they had two income streams, tourism and citizenship by investment. Well, guess what? During the lockdowns, they couldn't have any cruise ships coming in or any airplanes flying in. There was like complete lock on any kind of tourism. So they doubled down on citizenship by investment programs and they discounted the programs for like a year, just dropped 25 percent of the price. Just so they can attract more and more citizens, more and more applicants, let's say.

27:28 Um, that was one thing. And then, of course, with the digital nomads realizing they can work from anywhere in the world, the demand just skyrocketed. So now The digital nomad visa became a thing all over the world, like six years ago, it was an option in a few jurisdictions, mostly in the EU. Now it's everywhere across Latin America, almost everywhere in Southeast Asia. Also, they have digital nomad visas, so that definitely accelerated. And again, digital nomad visa falls really well into the whole sovereign individual thesis. Come and build from here, pay less taxes than you would in your home country, but paid here.

28:12 Uh, hire local people, uh, build an office here, you're welcome. Um, so that's pretty cool. Uh, yeah, to dive back into one of Luke's questions, uh, I, uh, I seem to remember like four years ago that for the, I think it was the Antigua one, that you only had to spend one day on, on actual Antigua per year, but you could still have the passport. Yeah, so it's, most of my jurisdictions don't require you to visit the island or in the country at all. El Salvador doesn't require it, four out of five jurisdictions in the Caribbean don't require a visit. It's an online interview and that's it. With Antigua, you just have to spend five days in the next five years, you know, to renew the passport.

28:56 Um, so yeah, those citizenship by investment programs is a true capitalism comes to nation state services. You literally buy a passport, which is cool. I want more of it. That's so cool, because like, there's a Hans Hermann Hoppe term that, uh, that I love, that governments don't compete for goods, they compete for bads. But in this case, they actually compete for goods, because the bads drive the good people out, and now they need to enter the free market to find new goods to import to the country. And, uh, yeah, we put it in our new book that the, uh, the opposite of equality is not inequality, it's quality.

29:44 So, like, either you have equality or you have quality. And I think there's something to that. You can't, you can't, equality is only possible if you chop people's legs off. That's, that's how you get equality. So, uh, so no, this is a very positive. thing. Uh, and it's, uh, yeah, I'm so happy to hear that this is just expanding and, and growing in every direction and direction, uh, you know, widening and deepening. Yeah. You know, yesterday I was accused in, uh, being an equality, equality advocate on Twitter because I mentioned that, um, Pluggy Passport's mission is to employ all the good looking women of Bitcoin Twitter one day, and people were like, why are you only hiring women?

30:32 Are you just trying to do the whole equality thing? I was like, oh my God, this has nothing to do with me. Trying to just choose by gender, but as a, as a female CEO, it's just much better dynamic for me to have full female team and also like, I don't want to boss around a man and then come back to my home and try to bring the same energy to my husband. That's just going to be really wrong. But, like, try and explain it on Twitter in 280 digits, like, so the Vogue Nazis came to me and were like, hey, you're here trying to spread the whole equality message.

31:13 I'm like, no, I'm just trying to build a business that works for me, too, No, but you're only employing beautiful women, right? exactly. So, So, duh. Yeah. fat women are not allowed, so I'm clearly not equality. No, it's great. Um, yeah. Where, where are we here? Luke, do you have anything else on your mind? That's hilarious. Maybe bringing this around on a different direction. We didn't touch much on your Bitcoin, the Bitcoin of it all. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about what got you into Bitcoin, what convinced you about it and the role that Bitcoin plays in everything you're doing these days.

32:02 Absolutely. So, um, I was born to be a Bitcoiner. Like, I was born in post Soviet Russia. Um, I've seen two hyperinflations throughout my lifetime. I've seen my parents assets seized. I've seen my bank accounts just shut down because I'm somewhere abroad and forgot to tell my, my bank about it and some other reasons. So it was only a matter of me learning enough about Bitcoin to become a Bitcoiner. And then I was, I also had the same experience with my passport as a member of a national team, I would get like rejected an EU visas multiple times a year, and I'm coming on a direct invitation from like world championship to come and compete.

32:47 What is the reason to reject the 16 year old girl to come and compete for a week? Right? Makes zero sense, but it made me realize. This piece of paper that I have with a government stamp on it. It's gonna dictate what kind of invisible lines I can or cannot cross in the world, like, it was just, it makes no sense if you look at it this way, but, uh, it made me quite an anarchist when it comes to the whole world movement between borders and jurisdictions, so I wanted to fix it for myself, and now I want to fix it for others, too. Um, so I was in the right place at the right time in Miami to become a Bitcoiner.

33:30 Like I obviously heard about it and you know how you have the three touch thing until you're fully sold. So one day I met this girl at a language school, English language school, and she's crying, bawling, and I can right away see that she's from Russia. So she had some issues, got kicked out of the host family, has nowhere to stay, has no car to move her suitcase. So I just give her a hand. Drop her off at the hotel with her suitcases. Well, she reached out a couple of months later and was like, Hey, Katie, there's this Bitcoin mining farm that comes to New York for a Bitcoin conference and they need a translator. Well, let me tell you, at this point I was learning English for 10 months from scratch.

34:12 And I was like, of course I will be your translator. I'll be great at it. So I show up with New York in this conference. It was exactly seven years ago in a couple, couple of days. I just. So I show up at this conference already super curious about quote unquote crypto, trying to figure it all out. Well, this conference was as shitcoinary as it gets. Like looking back, I'm like, how did I get out of it? It's some magic. But one guy from the conference, I was like, dude, how do I figure it all out? Like, what do I learn? Where do I go? And he says, you Go read Mastering Bitcoin by Antonopoulos, which was at the time the only Bitcoin book, literally.

34:56 Um, so I get the book, I spent nights and nights not only trying to figure out the English issue of that because it was in English and I barely spoke it, but also it was quite technical, um, now it's no problem, but back then with zero knowledge on Bitcoin, like, Alice, Bob, what's going on, guys? Um, but yeah, I was at the right time, the right place, and then I was still like, re re writing, reading every white paper there is on every shitcoin there is, comes out like 10 a day. It's 2017. Um, but yeah, I got on Twitter and got cleaned up, uh, by, by the Bitcoin moxies.

35:39 Yeah, and a good, good thing too. And, uh, I mean, I think there's, there's one thing with, with a lot of Bitcoin maxis generally is that, uh, You know, we're deep in, right? Like, uh, find Bitcoin and then there's like this motivation to do something in the space and something that aligns with it. And I mean, the Plan B passport thing absolutely just instantly feels like this is a needed service within the community. But did it start out that way? Like, did it start out with Bitcoin as a part of the focus? Can you tell us about that? It started with Bitcoin Twitter, so I was already, like, really crazy flag theory, enthusiast, advocate, like, I was just screaming to all the Bitcoiners that you all need a second passport, you all need to be moxing on your flags, and, like, they kept asking me questions, and I kept being able to answer, because I was so deep down this rabbit hole, So then I realized, wait a second, I have the expertise, I have the audience, and I have no product to give to them, so I, at first I was sending them to other companies, Which I didn't feel comfortable with because I thought that the service they were providing did not answer my quality requirements.

36:58 So then I just had to get over my whatever syndrome that I didn't feel comfortable providing service myself. And uh, yeah, just opened up Plan B Passport. Took me a while to feel comfortable and being able to actually offer the service. Um, but that's how it all started. And now it's Seven girls, we're all over the world in different continents, five different jurisdictions, um, and we take care of Bitcoiners flag needs.

38:57 Yeah, it's awesome. And, uh, you know, I think, I think the, uh, Um, the, the, the match, uh, the, the, what is it called? Product market fit or the market product fit. Um, we were talking to Obi about this. He was, he was adamant that it wasn't about, uh, product market fit. It was about market product fit, like the reverse. I think, I think I'm, I'm getting that here that it's really that you, you matched it to the, the needs of, of the Bitcoin community or, or sort of this unique. Thing, this, this, uh, um, digital nomads on steroids, something like this for, for all of the reasons. Um, but, but the, the geopolitical, um, side of it, the geopolitical role of, of Bitcoin is, is a, a really interesting intersection here because, uh, I mean, uh, you, you, you've got experience, uh, I, I think the exact perfect one, Russia is the, is the country that is becoming internationally demonized in the last.

39:54 A few years with the, the war in Ukraine and the entire Western world is basically blocked. Russia off. And so, I mean, this is, this is, I think, a fear of, of many in the, the Bitcoin community that Bitcoin is going to get blocked off in their home country and then have to have to use this, right? So what do you see, uh, taking personal into experience into this or, or, or not, however you like, but what do you see the likelihood of, of people needing to use this stuff Full node is our nation, of course, uh, but, I mean, we already see some jurisdictions being friendlier than others when Bitcoin.

40:40 Again, you don't need to protect your Bitcoin from anybody else. You need to protect yourself from the nation state, right? Like, For example, Roger Merrick, who actually played the game of jurisdictional arbitrage, stepped into the wrong land. And he's currently in custody and like, of course, we're not the biggest fan of the Vcash guy, but like, he renounced his US citizenship, um, at least seven years ago, probably eight. Uh, he, according to the news is what he's done. He, when he renounced, you're supposed to declare all your assets and pay 40 percent exit tax in the US. So he under declared some of his Bitcoin, not a lot, actually, apparently just.

41:24 Quite just a few. Uh, so he under declared it, they somehow figured it out, they got him in Spain, and now he's in custody. He is supposed to be extradited to the U. S. I don't know if it's gonna happen, but it is sad to see. So, of course he's more of a political prisoner in a way, they wanted to make a case out of him and show Bitcoiners that's not true. That's what we could do if you don't share the information about your assets with us because we want to know everything. Um, but yeah, you, you should be in the right places that will protect you physically and your family. Um, that's why having this insurance policy, being able to leave the country in case the 6102 starts on Bitcoin, um, things like that.

42:13 That's why, that's why the whole, the whole bug out home and Plan B passport. Hence the name of the company. Like, you're not necessarily trying to relocate. You're looking for a plan B in case shit hits the fan. Yeah. I mean, this is, this is just a perfect time for a rant about libertarianism, like, as much as I dislike Roger, because Roger is a lying shitcoiner, and I, uh, he, he tried to promote his shitcoin as bitcoin, confusing people all over the world, and did a lot of bad things, but, That's not a crime. Like, he never forced anyone to buy Bitcoin Cash.

42:54 If you were dumb enough to do that, that's on you. So, I truly believe people should be able to sell shit if they want to. And the real, this is a know your enemy situation. The real enemy here is the people that put him away for a victimless crime. which is not declaring your 12 words to some institution that wants to steal your money. That's not a crime. That's, uh, that's your responsibility to not give them your 12 words. Like, uh, I mean, I'm so, you know, hashtag free Roger. Yes, I'm, I'm totally on that side here. Uh, and, uh, yeah, uh, even though I disagree with almost everything Roger says, because it's like he, for a guy that has read so much Austrian economics and libertarian literature, he got some stuff really backwards.

43:46 So, uh, but, but still, free Roger. Hey, Roger. For sure, I'm on the same team. Yeah, and nobody actually talking about it on Twitter. Yeah, maybe we should, maybe we should, like, talk about it more on Twitter. People don't even know he's in custody. People do talk, uh, there's a hashtag, Freeroger, uh, uh, hashtag, so people are talking about it, I saw a post about it today, but yeah, maybe it's not that big, because people don't like Roger, but it is, it is, uh, uh, it's a scary thing, and just that he could be, it's, it's very similar to the Julian Assange thing, actually, I think, like, getting it's Getting caught in another country for, for basically information crime.

44:31 And that's something that when you build your flag theory strategy, you should consider. What are the extradition laws at certain jurisdictions? What is the extradition laws in Turkey? And that's why Turkey has been interesting because Turkey is not an EU, Turkey is not in bed with Western world, Turkey has this, like, layer of cultural, religious protection from the West right now, so that's why a lot of Bitcoiners are like, yeah, Turkey is not a strong password, but it is On the other side of geopolitical spectrum, so it is a good hedge, and that's something you definitely should consider when building your flag theory toolkit. Yeah, tell us more about Turkey then.

45:12 What's the, what's the deal there? You buy citizen, um, sorry, you buy real estate 400, 000 plus, on this basis you obtain citizenship, you have to hold real estate for 3 years, after that do whatever you want. You can actually buy real estate with Bitcoin. Sounds appealing, and I mean, uh, you know, the, the, I've seen tweets of yours talking about the Bitcoin price strengthening and the price per Bitcoin for some of these passports and, uh, you know, with number go up, the price is only going to go lower and lower, and I like also when you, uh, break down how much it is to bring your whole family, because obviously that's, uh, Uh, that's important for, for Bitcoiners as well.

45:55 And, uh, um, you, and you've also been quite public that you've been, been building a family and growing a family in, in this whole time. Has, has that changed your outlook in, uh, um, your, your flag flare? Yeah, everything. Please tell us about definitely changed my outlook on everything. Um, yeah, I have two boys so far, eight months old and two and a half years old. Um, of course it changed my perspective on everything, but now more than ever, I realize, The strategy of building my flag theory must include my ability to relocate with children.

46:37 So picking the jurisdiction has become a strategy around my lifestyle for my kids. Um, but now also like some programs are more family friendly. Some programs, I can't include my spouse, or he can't include me, and things like that, so, um, I, this is what we do for our clients, right, they come with their goals and needs, and I break them down with like, okay, what, what kind of lifestyle do you desire, what's the budget, how many family members do you want to include, do you want to include your parents, your spouse's parents, You have seven kids together. Okay, how do we include all them? What's going to change the price and things like that?

47:17 But yeah, all these come into consideration. That's why I constantly say, like, flat theory is a security model. When you build your security model for Bitcoin, you consider your potential attack vectors, right? So you're like, I travel a lot, so I need to have access to my coin. In any jurisdiction, so I can't like put my seed phrase on the ground on a steel plate on my backyard. That's not going to work. So you build up your security system based on your goals and needs. Same goes for Flak View. You have to customize it based on all the, all the facts that are at play. Yeah, understandable. And well, yeah, my, my, uh, my son, my first, my first kid is 10 months.

48:01 So it's, I get the, the entire thing. It's, uh, having young kids is, having kids, kids, period. Yeah. Changes your perspective. Uh, sure. Um, yeah, yeah. Uh, I, I, I wonder in all this, what do you think of kind of your outlook over the next few years? Are you optimistic about it? The world and the future, the way things are going. So I, I really like the fact that I have all the plan Bs in place because that makes my front yard greener. You know how they say that the grass is always greener on the other side? Well, the grass is greener where you fertilize it, not with chemicals, but, but you know what I mean, right?

48:47 It's like. What you feed will grow. And I was, I'm currently in Texas, which was chosen strategically for all the family needs that we have at the time. And it's been serving me quite well. We build out a perfect bubble of Bitcoin friends here. We, uh, Shoot the hand of local farmers, so we have access to everything we currently need, and we build this perfect green, gross place for ourselves. Now, of course, I have Plan B and C and D in place, which makes me sleep well at night. So I am in an absolute hopium mindset, like I'm a, I see future as beautiful and positive for me and my family.

49:33 I think many of us Bitcoiners. I just have this thing now that like, look, we figured out the money system. Now everything is great. We're no longer in the red grace. We're not longer doing jobs we hate. We no longer have to have dinners with people we dislike. We actually have this beautiful tribe and community and yeah, everything, everything is beautiful in my life right now. It's great to hear. And, uh, and, uh, I guess, I guess my question is a little more like a big picture, uh, like geopolitically, even, do you, do you think Bitcoin is going to, going to help for peace in the world? Because that, again, I think what you talked about the, the, the plan B of it all is, is if everything goes to shit kind of thing, and you've seen examples of this in the last few years, but, um, do you think it's going to get better?

50:25 Yeah, well I don't have to tell you guys about the whole let's separate state and money and it's gonna make everything better. You've heard that too many times, you know it by heart, you feel it. So, of course, I want more and more people to see this beautiful exit. Um, I don't want us to go and do violent revolution to make it, like, Anarchy is not enforceable. That's the whole point of anarchy. Anarchy is a voluntarily opt in system, and you know, the way I see it is basically like a network full of nodes. First, you become a full, reliable node.

51:06 Like, I'm an anarchy node. I don't exercise violence against people unless they exercise violence towards me. I don't lie. I don't Mis, mislead people and all those things, right? Like I'm a true anarchy node. Well, now I go ahead and I find people who run the same code, right? So I started connecting with other anarchy nodes and that's the only way the network spreads out just like Bitcoin network. So you can't. You can't force other people to run your node, to run the same energy node. That's why Bitcoiners seem to really enjoy coming to conferences together, because that's how you expand the network. And that's why you see Bitcoiners really choosing places and just Moving in all together and just starting a local community because we, we found our nodes, we found the tribe.

51:57 So I, I feel like there were a lot of catalysts lately that helped people see that the previous system sucks. COVID was one of them. There were a lot of good things that came out of COVID somehow. and now, Now you just really must see through this, like, in America specifically, through this red and blue glasses and realize that this is such a showbiz and 51 percent attack always happens, but in reality, you choosing between two evil and, like, who is your neighbor affects your life way more than who is in the fucking White House.

52:40 So once you realize that, you're like, wait, I can just build the life I love, and that's kind of beautiful. So the more people wake up to that and see through, see through bullshit, the better the outcome is going to be. Oh, this is a, that was a fantastic rant, Katie. I mean, nail on the head, uh, and I'm gonna identify as an anarchy node in the future. Like, so whenever a website asks me for my pronouns, it's anarchy slash node. Uh, like that's, uh, no, this is so good. And, uh, speaking of anarchy and libertarianism, and so, because you hit the nail on the head, it's not enforceable, we have to do it ourselves, we have to just connect with one another and live our lives as we want to and do our best to not have to follow the rules that others try to impose upon us.

53:29 That's, that's it. Like, it's so simple. And I think the beauty of Bitcoin is that this whole don't trust, verify mentality. Actually, now 10 years down the line and moving into the future creates this web of trust between us Bitcoiners, because, I think honesty is the currency of the future. Bitcoin is honesty, and honesty on every level is the currency of the future. The only thing you have, except your stack, is your trust. Uh, that is actually valuable as your reputational capital. It's everything. And it becomes more and more important the further into the future we get. And that is what an anarchy node lives on. That's the anarchy node fuel. It's honesty, like your reputation, that you don't fuck people over.

54:13 Otherwise, you're, you get shunned out of the community and you have nothing, you have nothing left. And by the way, then you've got to identify, you've got to identify the, the B cash, energy cash node and make sure you cut them out and split from the network, whenever, whenever they run malicious node. Yeah, exactly. Uh, by the way, speaking of libertarianism, uh, I, I think we bumped into one another around two years ago in Prague at the Liberty in Our Lifetime conference, uh, the Free Cities, uh, movement thing. Uh, do you have any, uh, touch points there? Are you still involved with that somehow?

54:53 Uh, well, I've been constantly pregnant and have a baby, so I can't travel much for conferences. Um, I meant more on a, um, like, online level, maybe. no, I haven't, I have not been really in touch with them. Like, with some individuals, of course, but not professionally. I haven't been keeping my eye on what's going on there. Um, yeah, I know Narkapulku is also still running and they had some conferences and In Europe, yeah, I don't know what's going on there. Yeah, anyway, uh, we, uh, yeah, I missed that conference this year, too, so I was sort of just curious if you had any, news or anything on that front, but that's a great movement, too, if you don't know about it, check out the Free Cities thing, they're trying to build Actual anarchistic communities within national borders is very interesting.

55:53 And there's a, there's a whole bunch of interesting projects around the world. Uh, I can proudly say that we mentioned Plan B, uh, Plan B passports. I don't think we mentioned you by name, but we mentioned the service in our new book. The inverse of Clown World, so there's a whole section in one chapter about flag theory and like stuff you can do to emancipate yourselves from your statism shackles and all sorts of stuff. And it's been great having you on the show. Is there anything you'd like to add before we wrap this thing up? Any points we haven't touched?

56:34 Well, reach out to me, let's see if you have ancestors from Europe to start your journey. Become a true Anarchy Node and connect with all of us. That's the message. I am at PlanBPassport on Twitter. PlanBPassport. com is our website where you can submit your application to request any information about any flag in the world. Um, that's probably the best I can do. Yeah, and if you're a woman, I mean a beautiful woman, you can also apply for a job, I guess. That's right. Perfect. Uh, discriminatory hiring practices, uh, fully, fully approved. Yes. Yes, absolutely.

57:16 So, uh, yes, free speech, Katie, this is, this has been, uh, excellent. Uh, great to have you here. And, uh, yeah, uh, keep doing what you're doing. This is a fantastic service. Uh, uh, I'll need number to go up a little bit further before I can take advantage of it one day, but, uh, we'll, we'll see if that's in my, my future. Yeah, thank you again. And, uh, anywhere else you'd like to direct people to? I can't, I don't know if you'd, yeah, anything else to direct people to? Now I'll, uh, I'll send you guys the link. You can include them, whatever you feel like. Um, yeah, thank you. Honored to be here. I had fun. Likewise. likewise.

57:56 And you're a great ranter, you should do it more. Thanks again. you. Thank you guys. This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Thank you for listening, and thank you again, Katie.