Why Bitcoin Is Money (And Not a Database) with Conza | Bitcoin Infinity Show #188

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Kansa, welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Nice to have you back.

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My pleasure to be here.

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Yeah, it's early morning for me and late at night for you because we're on opposite ends of the globe.

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You're in Australia. You've been on the show once before.

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We met once in Sydney three years ago, I think, almost three years ago.

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And you have always had fantastic takes on everything, in my opinion.

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I don't know of anyone who is more well read up on the Austro-libertarian ideas and foundations.

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So while I may not always agree with your sense for diplomacy online, I do agree with almost everything you say.

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And you're always right.

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And people get annoyed with it.

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So I thought you'd be the perfect guest to sort of wrap up the praxeological reasons for why you should be a monetary maximalist and why Bitcoin is money and not a fucking database.

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We might have to blur out the curse word there for the YouTube algorithm, but I hesitate to call it anything else.

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Let's get into it.

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If you want an introduction to Michael Kansa, you should watch our last interview.

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or you have a website too where you can find all these quotes to all of these nice libertarian

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articles but i'm i'm getting ahead of myself here what are so first question what are the two

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problems that money solves two problems that money solves we're going straight there so what is money

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if we want to like take one little step back yeah is uh so i'd say like the most salable good in

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society, which ends up being like a medium of exchange. And what money is, is the most common

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medium of exchange within a given context. That little bit of within a given context is attribute

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to Conrad Graf, who is on that point where often it's money and people get confused where the most

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common medium of exchange and they look at like, okay, jail, you're the cigarettes they talk about

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and not understanding the difference between that and currency and how, well, it's like within that

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given context, yes, but like within the society itself, because like what is the most common

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medium of exchange? And so the question is like, is Bitcoin money? It's like, yes, it is for

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within the context of say Bitcoin Maximus. So people where it's used as their store of wealth

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savings technology, it's their most common medium exchange for them. It's their unit of account.

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But then within the wider context, say, United States, is Bitcoin the most common medium exchange?

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And the question is necessarily like, well, within what context?

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And so like, no, I mean, that's the end up goal of what we want.

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Just like, as we understand from a practical perspective, as we get into it, where these commodities, so money is in its essence, a commodity is how Rothbard kind of summarized it.

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It's not a kind of a token, useless token, you know, needed for exchange.

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all monies refer back to Minger and Mises competing amongst other goods. And over time,

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the one with the best monetary properties kind of wins out in those competitions. And so

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individuals trade that and then becomes obviously the most common one you want to hold.

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But in terms of understanding that, so that's the most within a certain context, what is money?

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And then you've got the problems it solves. So what is it trying to solve? So initially,

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it's a double coincidence of wants. So you used to have barter and you're looking to trade,

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you know, I need to now find something that you want or good that you want and then vice versa.

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So that becomes a hard thing to do. And then essentially, yes, it solves a problem like a

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double coincidence of wants where you're able to then just have money. So there's that commodity

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that you know is more saleable in society. So if you hold that, it's gold historically, right?

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you're able to then get a better chance of trading that for the things that you want or need. And it's

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able to store that quote unquote wealth over time. And so it's kind of an insurance against

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uncertainty is what money is. It's like the most saleable good. It's like you've got something in

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stocks or whatever it is. If you need that for instant gratification of something for purchase,

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there's barriers to that where with money, cash, Bitcoin, you're able to use that and

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satiate those needs. So one, what are the problems that money solves? One is the double

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coincidence of once. And as it goes through that process is essentially, so it ends up being the

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unit of account. So the most common medium of exchange in society is money. And then it's

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obviously becomes a common unit of account that enables the ability to rationally allocate

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resources given the common unit.

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Economic calculation is essentially the answer to that.

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The example of what's presupposed by that.

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So it's if you don't have property, you don't have, if you don't have property, then you're

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not able to, and there's no market, then you're not able to exchange goods.

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Essentially, then you don't have, if you're not able to do that, you don't have prices.

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And if you don't have prices, then you're not able to rationally calculate anything.

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And the best analogy I've seen is, and this is the best argument against socialism that

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exists, which is from Mises, which is the economic calculation argument.

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or the inability for states to rationally allocate resources.

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It's kind of think about you're the benevolent dictator.

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Historically, that's the one-party ruler,

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whether that's Hitler, whoever, the socialists,

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the national socialists,

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but then you've got the international socialists as well,

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so the Marxists, the communists, Lenin, all that.

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You've got the dictator.

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but even assuming Mises assumes goodwill from all the populists so everyone's a commie

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everyone's a socialist everyone's on board with and agrees with what the ruler wants to do it's

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okay assuming 100% all of that how do you choose whether you your resources from that would go to

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make a house or to burn a fire to build a train station or a school and so how do you do that

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without money being able to rationally allocate those resources and let the market choose it's

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It's a plan, it's a central plan, but you're not able to do it rationally in that sense.

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Then politics and all that other stuff comes into it.

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So yeah, those are the two problems money solves.

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And then I could go on to essentially what Bitcoin additionally solves, but yeah.

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Yeah, we'll go into that.

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I just want to add two points.

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I think there's a Hopper quote about, you said something, insurance against uncertainty.

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And I think there's a Hopper quote saying that money is the best insurance against uncertainty

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available.

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And I really like that definition.

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I like it more than like sort of on a society which is the most dominant form because that's

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sort of subjective in a way, I guess, like everything else, at least in terms of what

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money ought to be.

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It ought to be the best insurance against uncertainty possible.

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And in that sense, that's also one of the arguments for why Bitcoin is so superior to fiat, because fiat will lose value over time.

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We don't know where Bitcoin's value goes.

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We know where it goes over long periods of time if it works.

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We know that it goes to either zero or approaching infinity, to be blunt.

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But we definitely know that fiat will lose value, which is why it doesn't work, which is why the money is broken.

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There was another thing I thought about there, but I lost that, I think.

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So let's go on to, so why it's, yeah, let's see how to frame this.

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Applying this to Bitcoin, what kind of conclusions can we draw?

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yeah so knowing what money is the conclusion just straight jump into the end here is so like

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bitcoin's a rivalrous digital commodity on an open source monetary network um and so unpacking that

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um econographic and has a bit solid breakdown well we can see so bitcoin is an economic good

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kind of step one step two is then it's a rival good which is a subtype of scarce good and so

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So rivalrous meaning, so what's the best way to frame it?

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So often the use of scarcity is used, but not as, I'd say, accurate or can sometimes

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lead to confusing conclusions and intellectual property kind of debate is a part of this

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where, oh, you know, I have a recipe or something and I'm hiding it from you and it's like,

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that's scarce or I've got something like that where it's not used, where it's like the use

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of rivalrous is in terms of like conflict.

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and so it's a type of rival good knows a commodity and then a new type of commodity

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called a digital commodity with unprecedented monetary characteristics and so yeah it's let's

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say like part of that unpacking bitcoin what it is it's that rivalrous digital commodity open source

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monetary network within that how to look at it is so there's like a unit perspective and a systems

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perspective, it's that duality of sorts that is fairly prevalent in looking from a praxological

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perspective where you've got to say the a priori or the prior to experience framework.

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So, for a praxological law, it's set up in the form of if X and Y remains unchanged,

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then Z will result.

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And that's like, think about it as the formula of sorts.

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And then it's like, okay, well, in this instance, like what happened exactly?

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Yeah, that's the all else being equal scenario.

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Yes.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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An imaginary scenario.

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So this is TLDR on praxeology here.

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This is how you praxeologically attack problems.

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Just as you said, if X and Y remains the same, then Z has to follow.

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So what you do is you think of an imaginary scenario where all else is being equal.

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this being the y in the equation, then it logically follows that z must be the result of x,

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right? Exactly. And then it's kind of seeing the situation like, okay, is that what happened?

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And you're able to see a more powerful tool to understand the theory behind that. And then it's

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like, where is it illustrating or not? So you've got, say, that foundation from a legal lens,

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it's there's a definition on the sense of like, what is theft? You know, this is the definition

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of theft. What is aggression? You know? And then it's like, okay, we know what that is now. Like

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in the, in the case specific case, it's like, okay, well did that bike, you know, whose bike

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was that? Or did it get stolen? Like who we can then objectively and intersubjectively

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ascertain, attainable way determine, well, yeah, we can agree that like I threw fists or someone

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through fists at me and who struck first and whatnot. So for me, I think recently,

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The Theory and History is an amazing book he's got where it is that breakdown of this. You've

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got praxeology on one kind of the thing about systems lens and there's like thymology,

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which is another word for like psychology of why. And essentially you can look at the action and why

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that happened in intent. And so kind of those two things together can present that whole of like

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what's happened. But looking at Bitcoin, while we've got that lens, it's, yeah,

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Conagraph does an amazing job of breaking down. Well, there's an element that it's,

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so it's rivalrous, but that's part of the innovation where within the digital realm,

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there's intellectual, you know, digital IP, like, I don't need to spend a rabbit hole on like why

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intellectual property is invalid, where essentially it violates the property rights of others. It's

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like monopoly of thought of like a non, this is the element of non-scarce goods where you're,

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yeah, it's not a adjustable way to go things. But so Bitcoin has an element of that way,

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like the blockchain is copyable and sometimes people get confused and mixed up like, well,

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you know, it's not worth anything in that regard. But then also there's a lens of the

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owners, it's like definitional stuff. So like, this will be important later as we discuss spam.

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So bear with me, but it's like, okay, you've got the on-chain piece and there's definition.

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So ownership.

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So ownership is like the exclusive right to control where you're justified in using force

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to protect and defend your right.

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And then you've got possession, which is effective control.

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And so whether it's depending on the context and the audience, and obviously yours is better

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than the normies by a long shot, whether you bother to have these type of discussions,

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but it becomes important when you're trying to look at reality.

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And we discuss like, do you own, actually own ordinals?

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And like, what's it mean to own?

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And by consequence, also we talk about Bitcoin.

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And it's like, well, so Conrad Graff has a book,

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Monograph, addressing this really like 2015.

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And so we highly encourage everyone to kind of read that.

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Or it provides...

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Are Bitcoins ownable this year?

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Yeah, yeah.

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That the title of the book right It a PDF available as well like 85 pages There isn a better I say just value unbiased approach that Conrad is very known for

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and tearing down not big words for the sake of it per se,

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but being incredibly accurate anyway.

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So long story, he does a solid job of breaking it down,

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but it's like the answer is, so you can't,

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and this is moving to the end here,

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and I throw people off, but you're not able to actually own

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so exclusive right to control Bitcoin.

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Like nothing on the time chain of blockchain says,

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you know, I have, Kanzai has a right to this UTXO or anything.

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Like keys could be, private keys could be stolen and lost and whatnot.

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And so, but the answer is, well, does it really matter

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if we don't per se where it's through private property,

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through nodes or computers, our own, like someone breaks in

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or hacks or trespasses, that's the private property rights violation that can be in place.

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And so it's not the fact that you can't have ownership of them, but, and Stephanie Kinsella

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talks about this as well. He's got a whole lecture on it that essentially it's the other rights

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violations though that can still like, you know, seeking damages where you trespass them, all this

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damage where you stole, you know, you got the private key access to that and then sold bitcoins

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and stuff. So the reason why that is important, which is, you can talk about later on, it's

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around ordinals and ownership of, quote unquote, ownership of JPEGs and dick butts and all that,

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and what spam is and how that relates to what we're talking about.

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Yeah. To further cement this, first of all, Conrad Grof, look him up, is one of our favorite

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thinkers and he's very, very underappreciated in the Bitcoin community, I think. And we should hear

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more of him. Let's talk about what he's doing right now and stuff later on. The other thing is,

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In my mind, and when I try to explain this to people, I talk about this difference between ownership and possession a lot.

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And also that Bitcoin is really neither.

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It's on a deeper level because you can't really own Satoshi's.

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What you can control is a private key.

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So you can know the location of a hardware wallet and the passphrase to it.

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You can know your 12 words.

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You can know the actual private key.

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But at the end of the day, it's all about keeping a secret from other people.

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That's the only thing that allows you to act as if you own the Bitcoin.

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But in reality, no information is actually ownable.

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It's just that this thing allows you to interact with other people in a way that reassembles money rather than is money and reassembles a commodity rather than being one.

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And I find this part of the rabbit hole to be endlessly fascinating because what it means, in my mind, is that all the Bitcoins live in someone's head.

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We are the network, literally.

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Like, not metaphorically, but there is not a single set that exists or the ability to move it is always within a human brain and nowhere else.

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Just a quick comment on that.

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Do you agree with that framing?

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or is it overcomplicating things?

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I think you couldn't completely deduce it to that

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like in isolation.

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But in essence, yeah, I agree where it's human actions required.

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It's not just...

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And I think I had a thought experiment way back

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where it was trying to push back against...

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I think it's the similar thing you're pushing back against.

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And it was like...

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I think the concept was like,

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what would happen if there was no one touched Bitcoin?

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Like the human race ended, so to speak.

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Like how long would it take for Bitcoin to last?

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And there was some interesting historical that had been raised apparently years back in discussions for it.

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And so it's been a few years where I saw that.

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But the essence of it was it wouldn't last long at all in terms of hash rate and electricity and all that.

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And what's it really matter?

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And then how long would it last?

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and then say that someone came back after a certain period of time,

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like how long would it take to resurrect?

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And yeah, anyway, so it was, I'll try and find that,

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but it's interesting to think about around, well, what is,

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driving to the point of your race, which is like, what is it?

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And it was, the indication was like, yeah, humans matter.

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It's like, I think the trope was, it was along the lines of like,

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you know, Bitcoin doesn't give a shit or whatever,

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or one of these things about everything's good for Bitcoin type comments.

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Yeah, which, you know, rail against, as you know.

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So, yeah.

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Yeah, the whole code is law thing.

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Like, code is only law because we make it better.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And law is another term that is fascinating

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because legal and lawful are two very different things.

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And we'll get into that later too.

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Just like, here's another thought experiment.

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What if Hal Finney, who cryo-froves his head when he died,

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memorized the private key and is resurrected like 400 years later and moves the Bitcoin.

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This completely changes everything about saving, hodling. What these terms actually mean is so

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abstract and so ephemeral or whatever you can... There is a very weird aspect to this in it being

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so abstract. And this is also, there's a reason for bringing all of this hippie mumbo jumbo up.

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And that is the same arguments can be made for owning an NFT or owning spam because people think that that is also subjective and also, you know, in your head and you're just keeping a secret from someone and blah, blah, blah.

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And one of the hardest things for me when explaining Bitcoin to others is explaining why the Satoshi is sacred in this sense and why nothing else is or can be.

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So, and that's going to be hard to unpack, but yeah.

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Where do you, where do you want to take this next?

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Like where's the next logical step to explaining these things?

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Well, for me, it kind of comes down to like, as we're getting to,

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you know, there's changes to being proposed to Bitcoin by who and what

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and when and whether it should be or not.

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But it's like it always comes down to like the quality of money.

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Like is Bitcoin every I feel like every BIP or any

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said action of sorts from developers or anyone on Bitcoin. It's like, okay, does this improve

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Bitcoin's quality of money or reduce it? And it's as simple as that. And we can actually talk more

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about the quality of money and what that is. Let's take that from the very beginning. Sorry

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for interrupting here, but I think I got a good angle. Gold has other use cases than the monetary

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use case. It's used in industry and it's used for jewelry. And it's been argued that that makes gold

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a worse form of money. Why is that? Sorry, why is it as a worse form of money? I guess for me,

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it comes into like Mises regression theorem, right? Like it's how can you trace back essentially to a

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non-monetary use for whatever has become money. And Mises essentially says it has to be the case

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that there was essentially a non-monetary use. My actual angle is, and this is what Conrad Graff

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convinced me of otherwise, where I originally 20, 10 days, you know, first time it's been discussed

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on Mises community forums.

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We're trying to figure out, you know,

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does the Mises regression theorem apply to Bitcoin

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and does it invalidate it or validate it?

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But it was Conrad Graff who pointed out that essentially Bitcoin

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is the best example and best well documented

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and illustrated example of Mises regression theorem,

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which essentially makes the case that that wasn't like,

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wasn't circular.

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A lot of it was always money is valuable because it's valuable,

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but it's like, no, hang on.

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If you trace the answer is time, is what Macy said, and you trace it back to a certain point,

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it was originally valued for some other non-monetary use.

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And so often the question, I see people propose this towards Bitcoin that it doesn't have any,

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and that's good.

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And so my actual angle is, along with Conrograph, it's like, no, it has non-monetary purposes.

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When it initially started, it didn't start with a price.

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It was essentially 2010 was like no price.

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Anyway, Conor O'Graph, it's like there's early value components he kind of talks about where it was following a non-medium exchange value.

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And he kind of this five of them of sorts, which he's got a great part of an article on.

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But one of them is it's like it doesn't matter what it was, but even if it's just like speculative thinking like long term, this could be worth something down the track.

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It's like kind of digital collectibles.

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If it's like F the state, you know, separation of money in state, this is amazing.

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like a, and I get the value out of that, of just having these, the ideas discussing, like whatever

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it is, they've still imparted that, you know, even if it's like toy, like digital objects of sorts,

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you can, there's all these examples, illustrations of it having that non-monetary value. So moving

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forward, but yeah, so sorry, drawing that to, I guess, gold, like the historical cases,

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it was being commodity money has had alternate uses and that's helped kind of, I guess,

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bootstrap it or move forward but Rothbard also has an example talks about it in man economy and

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state where even if it something lost it's so there's a um there's a like goal like uses loses

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its non-monetary um uh uses um and it's just it can still actually carry on um I use the words

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like extant or something like regardless of that.

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But then also vice versa,

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like it can lose its monetary premium as well.

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So like if gold or silver getting demonetized,

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then the value can drop considerably per se,

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all else being equal.

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And then maybe those other use cases would be used for that.

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Well, maybe that would change.

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Sorry, did I get it?

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What was the...

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Yeah, yeah.

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So in my mind, Bitcoin absolutely proves Mises regression theorem because we have the exact date where it becomes money.

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And that is pizza day.

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That is when Lasso buys the two pizzas for 10,000 bitcoins.

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That's the exact moment where a collectible turns into a medium of exchange.

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So it's super simple.

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Now, the thing I was fishing for is sort of more like the other use cases for gold than the monetary use case.

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makes it harder for people to price gold properly, right?

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Because those use cases distort the price somewhat.

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And the question I'm leaning into from that perspective is,

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is this also true for the other quote-unquote use cases for Bitcoin

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that aren't really use cases other than for the spammer themselves?

321
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But the mispricing of the thing is sort of what I'm fishing for.

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Gotcha. Great question.

323
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I guess because they've got those differing uses per se.

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I know that's actually buying pure bullion gold bars of sorts

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like for in Australia or any way you don't get it.

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There's not capital gains perhaps on that.

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But then if it's like gold coins, like it's collectibles,

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then there's something slightly different.

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Although it's got that commodity within it, it's treated differently.

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It's not from a pure monetary perspective.

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It has to be like 99.9% or something.

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so there is different pricing already like just if you're looking to buy any um whilst it's the

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same commodity you're paying a premium for the the stamping or the the minting of it in certain ways

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so you're right it can but but i guess from a um i actually gave that example as well if you're

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trying to get out like well if you've have um i put out a poll or a tweet where it was essentially

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um if you had money like gold was like historically so we're just talking about gold

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and um you added confetti to it you sprinkled confetti onto it like sprinkles and sparkles

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and whatever like would that get more or like would that be you consider that was reduced its

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quality as money or improved it and it was like 80 percent were like no it reduces quality and

340
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,320
like what is this and is that kind of you know by like you know it's kind of the walter block kind

341
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of joke of, um, in say with Rothbard talking about, you know, Rothbard notes and he'd take them,

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you know, just being a pieces of paper with Rothbard on it. Um, but like someone trying to

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make that kind of joke where it's slightly different. It's like, no, people will be like,

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what the hell is this? And you've reduced it. And you've like, uh, it's not a monetary thing.

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That's what we're after. Um, uh, so I think along similar lines, um, yeah, when we talk about

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specifically Bitcoin, I think it's even more clear cut where the open source monetary network,

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it's a rival residual commodity and the whole point of the network is a peer-to-peer electronic

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cash system. It's all about Bitcoin as the unit and then you've got the system and it's meant to

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facilitate sending, saving, essentially storing that.

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And what the ordinals, like Casey Rodemore, has admitted they have nothing, ordinals have

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nothing to do with Bitcoin, the asset itself.

352
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And so the question is, well, what does it have to do with being on the network then?

353
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Like why Bitcoin open source monetary network?

354
00:27:31,380 --> 00:27:32,840
As you say, it's an abuse case.

355
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And that thing I prompted him, it's like, I've, it's almost got 15,000 views and I don't get many views.

356
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Just spamming that everywhere more or less over the years since you know February ETF what happened in February 2023 um since then and that was since the bug exploit has is um been promulgated where there was no bit there no consensus no

357
00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:03,000
discussion um and it's been exploited and bitcoin core admit it's been exploited but they also then

358
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say have adopted its change defined change the definition of data carrier size essentially said

359
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said it's now a feature, not a bug. Well, they are fixed a bug by updating the documentation,

360
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which is also something we've been ranting about. But long story, no one from getting pushed back

361
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from the other side, the Bitcoin is a database, you know, stall my dick butts forever side,

362
00:28:27,660 --> 00:28:38,460
have anyone has peeped up with a retort or an answer to, well, how do you justify this stuff

363
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that new creator admits of Ordinals admits

364
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and the exploiter himself admits

365
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it has nothing to do with it.

366
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And an open source monetary network,

367
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like why is it there?

368
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And spam is,

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and we do have a definition for spam,

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which is non-monetary data.

371
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It's not subjective.

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Where does that definition come from though?

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So I guess from,

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it's like using,

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understanding what money is.

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And if your,

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if their claim is on their own terms

378
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is Bitcoin is money,

379
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then on their own terms, they have to admit that it's, and they already have essentially,

380
00:29:12,460 --> 00:29:16,880
that it doesn't, it's nothing to do with the open source monetary network, right?

381
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:18,920
But do you mean where that definition comes from?

382
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,660
Well, to me, it's, I mean, like logic reason.

383
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:28,020
And it's essentially definitional in terms of like, well, the white paper, Bitcoin's intent,

384
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,800
what Satoshi described as, yeah, Bitcoin is a commodity.

385
00:29:33,380 --> 00:29:34,980
You're able to now transfer that.

386
00:29:34,980 --> 00:29:41,800
the problems it solves, which is, I mean, we talk about money, what are the problems that solves?

387
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:48,580
And then Bitcoin is the additional problem solves, which is trusted third parties. So there's no

388
00:29:48,580 --> 00:29:56,160
need for trusted third parties anymore. And so it's with all that in mind, yeah, it's then you

389
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:01,760
have, I think, pretty clear definition around what is and what isn't monetary. And it's like this

390
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one plus like so praxeology is a priori as you know it's kind of prior to experience it's the

391
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equivalent or akin to math mathematics like applied logic so you know one plus one equals two

392
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is as simple as that it's like we know that um it's it's definitional um so similarly on the

393
00:30:21,060 --> 00:30:26,680
lines of like what we know from praxeology like the logic and science of action effects and why

394
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:31,360
remains unchanged and several result um if you if you accept it as money which these guys a lot of

395
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:38,860
them do like Brian Trolls or whatever his name is, Shinobi. For a long time, we're trying to push

396
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the angle of Bitcoin as a database. And it feels like there was a clicking point with Shitcoin

397
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,420
magazine or whatever, like this is not working and this is actually negatively not helping them

398
00:30:50,420 --> 00:30:57,040
at all. And so he's shut up, so to speak, or he's acknowledged inadvertently that it's a crummy

399
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,760
argument i don't necessarily think he's an advertly done so but um just fried no monger

400
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,320
harping about it but then you hear like adam back kind of what we have seen is kind of come to the

401
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:11,920
fore and it's this lip service from the devs around bitcoin core anyone associated that oh

402
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,880
yeah bitcoin's money and then like okay let's just carry on but they have no understanding of what

403
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:22,080
what money actually is when you ask them which i have multiple times like what is the simple like

404
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:29,040
what problem does money solve? What problem does Bitcoin solve? Essentially, just crickets. And

405
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:35,160
yeah, it's the div syndrome is merch pays lip service to it. You've got Gloria Zhao,

406
00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:40,700
like, you know, these viral clips that have happened that Matt has done.

407
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:41,800
Crater. Yeah.

408
00:31:41,860 --> 00:31:45,800
Yeah. Yeah. Done an amazing job. Bitcoin University highlighting this stuff where it's

409
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,900
just very clear cut that, yeah, you've got no idea what money actually is. And you've overtly

410
00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:54,560
admit that you can't talk about Bitcoin from a monetary perspective. And then that's the

411
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:59,060
challenge where, well, if you don't have any economic literacy and you're working on humanity's

412
00:31:59,060 --> 00:32:05,400
best chance at freedom money, what are you doing? And it's either acknowledging you don't understand,

413
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:11,160
yes, you're a super tech dev and you understand the code, but human action, and we know is vital,

414
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:17,920
incentives. Then in economics that it's for, it's like seeing the seen and the unseen and understanding

415
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,040
as a whole what policy, what different approaches can have.

416
00:32:22,260 --> 00:32:25,020
And then incentive structures and whether it's like improving

417
00:32:25,020 --> 00:32:26,200
or reducing the quality of money.

418
00:32:26,300 --> 00:32:31,040
Like how in the world can you improve, understand what improves

419
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,780
or reduces the quality of money, which is Bitcoin,

420
00:32:35,060 --> 00:32:37,600
if you don't know economics in basic sense.

421
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,820
So the worry is like they should be at least acknowledging,

422
00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:46,600
like someone wise would understand, yes, that's a gap.

423
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:54,760
And I got to consult someone or the community, the plebs who are very much overtly more monetary

424
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,740
and have more monetary understanding.

425
00:32:56,740 --> 00:33:03,440
In many cases have more conviction, life savings, they've read the Bitcoin standard.

426
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:05,820
There's no animosity to all that.

427
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:12,040
It's actually, which we see a lot of devs with towards I've seen from safe, about safe

428
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,040
and all that approach where they've, for whatever reason, they're in a little bubble.

429
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:23,080
they need to have some other kind of understanding or not understanding at all of basic economics.

430
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,740
And so they don't see that there's a lot of red flags that essentially happen

431
00:33:27,740 --> 00:33:32,840
where they've also admitted like there's an open secret.

432
00:33:32,980 --> 00:33:37,620
So Jeremy Rubin, there's a clip with Casey Rodemar with Jeremy Rubin,

433
00:33:37,700 --> 00:33:40,520
who turns out, yeah, had direct connection to Epstein,

434
00:33:40,660 --> 00:33:44,300
but he's admitting it's an open secret among the dev community that they don't run their own nodes.

435
00:33:44,300 --> 00:33:49,240
they don't they don't you're not sending transactions um yeah so there's a whole

436
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:54,440
bin of things where i'm gonna have to devise out some of this stuff okay one for the sake of

437
00:33:54,440 --> 00:34:00,200
argument but also for because i think there's a danger here in the monetary maxis side being

438
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:07,280
too conspiratory and like i i love matthew kratus videos but i think at sometimes he draws

439
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,660
conclusions that are not easily provable and and also this this whole notion of

440
00:34:12,660 --> 00:34:19,980
core devs not knowing what money is may be true for a lot of them, but I don't believe it's true

441
00:34:19,980 --> 00:34:24,540
for all of them. There's the argument they would make, and the counter argument here that Merch

442
00:34:24,540 --> 00:34:30,320
would make is, for instance, and I hope I'm representing him correctly here, is that it's

443
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:36,480
futile to do anything about this. They say that these filters have proven to not work since it's

444
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:42,380
just policy and you can override all the stuff. It, in a sense, is a database because you can put

445
00:34:42,380 --> 00:34:44,360
any type of data you want into it.

446
00:34:44,900 --> 00:34:47,160
And the rationale they're giving

447
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,220
for increasing the opera term, for instance,

448
00:34:49,620 --> 00:34:52,640
is that that would somewhat incentivize people

449
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,140
putting their shit data there

450
00:34:54,140 --> 00:34:55,960
instead of trashing the chain.

451
00:34:56,300 --> 00:34:59,240
I personally think that's a horrid decision

452
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:01,080
because it sends the message

453
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,260
that this shit is okay to begin with.

454
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,320
And that's why I'm so vehemently against it

455
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:06,560
because I don't think it is

456
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,200
because I don't think it holds any merit.

457
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,640
but I can agree to that

458
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:12,860
to a certain extent

459
00:35:12,860 --> 00:35:14,020
that it's very hard

460
00:35:14,020 --> 00:35:15,280
to do anything about it

461
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,200
except try to educate people

462
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:18,600
why shit coins are shit

463
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,080
so what would you say to that?

464
00:35:21,260 --> 00:35:22,400
What would you say to

465
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:23,960
policy being changed?

466
00:35:24,340 --> 00:35:26,300
Actually, if you take their argument

467
00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:27,200
to be sincere

468
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:28,920
if you give them the benefit

469
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:29,480
of the doubt

470
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:30,580
that they're doing this

471
00:35:30,580 --> 00:35:33,200
what would you say to that?

472
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:33,840
Well, the thing is

473
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,040
we can give the benefit of the doubt

474
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:35,740
completely

475
00:35:35,740 --> 00:35:37,520
which is they're not bad actors

476
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,380
there's no VC funding. There's no strings attached actually means no strings attached.

477
00:35:42,540 --> 00:35:48,460
There's Brink, there's Chaincode Labs, like all those necessarily folks with bad actor status,

478
00:35:48,580 --> 00:35:53,000
red flags around them that are like hovering, ignoring all that. That's why the economic

479
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:58,800
literacy argument I think is so powerful is because yeah, on your own terms, like understanding,

480
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,500
yeah, okay, Merchley accepts Bitcoin as money, but it comes back to that not understanding

481
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:06,820
seeing the seen and the unseen or the counterfactual or the compared the counterfactual

482
00:36:06,820 --> 00:36:12,340
compared to argument all those being equal it's like well what are you looking at specifically

483
00:36:12,340 --> 00:36:18,460
and that that next action is it making it easier or harder is it reducing bitcoin's quality

484
00:36:18,460 --> 00:36:23,220
as money or improving it and they like to claim that yeah it's improving it because

485
00:36:23,220 --> 00:36:28,820
like you know going down the pathway of this cat and mouse game yeah the the argument would be that

486
00:36:28,820 --> 00:36:34,920
increasing the return size actually improves Bitcoin's usage as money because the spammers

487
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,920
would put their shit there instead of at more dangerous places.

488
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:39,440
Yeah.

489
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:39,920
Or more disruptive places.

490
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,280
And a completely more though, like the human actions, as if there's a vacuum.

491
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,220
I know they put their dev mindset on and it's like a game theory.

492
00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:50,480
And all they do is like, end result is like, yes, you do this quote unquote cat and mouse

493
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,560
game and you get to the end point where like, okay, fake pub keys on the time chain.

494
00:36:56,180 --> 00:36:57,900
And, you know, well, that's what they're going to do.

495
00:36:57,900 --> 00:36:59,660
But it's like, no, hang on.

496
00:37:00,260 --> 00:37:05,640
There's an understanding of like, well, the signal that gets sent and the quality of decision

497
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:06,240
being made.

498
00:37:06,340 --> 00:37:10,960
And yes, what you lean into in terms of whether it's being invited or not, is this good or

499
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:11,240
not?

500
00:37:11,340 --> 00:37:14,200
What are we signaling whether this is okay or not?

501
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,760
Like spam on humanity's best chance of freedom money.

502
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:24,900
To me, it's like if you, so they don't understand that element to it where we've historically,

503
00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:29,660
and this is where it gets hard to give them the benefit of the doubt where what has this worked

504
00:37:29,660 --> 00:37:36,720
what has worked in the past it's like this is the opera term wars two the first one we won why and

505
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:41,360
it and it's like there's this amazing um article that kind of lays it all out that has been shared

506
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:49,220
a million times um the uh bit for next what what no what was the i'll put in the show notes um but

507
00:37:49,220 --> 00:37:53,580
that article where it takes through and it makes research right yes something like that yes um

508
00:37:53,580 --> 00:37:56,000
Whereas essentially like the opera term was 2014.

509
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,100
And the answer was like the answer, the cyberpunks,

510
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,320
those who are more monetary orientated,

511
00:38:02,380 --> 00:38:06,160
I'd say back then understood what Bitcoin was, money only.

512
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,580
And then it goes, get stuff.

513
00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:10,960
Like, no, this, you know, essentially Satoshi Dice

514
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,640
being part of that was around a different period.

515
00:38:14,700 --> 00:38:15,840
It was like, no, it's like 50%.

516
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,240
It's non-monetary.

517
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,400
Get stuff, go away.

518
00:38:19,780 --> 00:38:21,080
We're gonna make your life harder.

519
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:27,200
and essentially yeah the result of that in that article is like uh ethereum being created they

520
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:33,560
they left and then you get all the shit coin spam and quote-unquote quote-unquote free market

521
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:40,240
lapatarian scammer stuff in in hindsight i love the shit coins like i love that they did that and

522
00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:44,540
that they did their own shit on their own chains and they didn't mess with bitcoin for 10 years

523
00:38:44,540 --> 00:38:49,760
like in hindsight that was fantastic then they've come back and and that's the challenge of instead

524
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,740
of being the OGs who were like, well, no, you can't come back.

525
00:38:53,740 --> 00:38:57,860
And yes, okay, you found a bug exploit that we're now going to fix.

526
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,080
And that's what Luke wanted to do and proposed.

527
00:39:01,460 --> 00:39:06,660
But then it becomes even harder to assume good faith when you were literally quoting

528
00:39:06,660 --> 00:39:08,880
Greg Maxwell from back in the day.

529
00:39:09,020 --> 00:39:10,440
You have Gloria Zhao.

530
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:17,640
You have not her, Ava Chao, where he was like, there's some posts where he's basically saying

531
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:23,120
get stuffed, rug the spam is the equivalent of, you know, 10 years ago.

532
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,360
And now his tunes change.

533
00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:27,900
And so it's like they're almost arguing against themselves.

534
00:39:28,060 --> 00:39:29,800
Like what's happened to change that?

535
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,240
You can either just, yes, the economic ignorance.

536
00:39:34,420 --> 00:39:41,640
And for HR's piece, he went to university and came out admittedly with a, you know,

537
00:39:41,660 --> 00:39:44,440
I guess work in that sense is how we'd probably characterize it.

538
00:39:44,500 --> 00:39:47,560
But it's like, well, the economic literacy angle, that's enough.

539
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:52,120
I think to explain the issues that are being faced.

540
00:39:53,540 --> 00:39:54,820
But then it's not that.

541
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:56,680
It's just there's all these other red flags as well

542
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,860
where it's the censorship,

543
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,900
it's the delayed censorship on the mailing list

544
00:40:01,900 --> 00:40:03,480
with various proposals.

545
00:40:03,780 --> 00:40:06,800
It's going back where, like, yeah, where are they?

546
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,060
Yeah, I mean, sorry to interrupt again,

547
00:40:09,180 --> 00:40:11,640
but yeah, to clarify here,

548
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,420
I do recognize that there is a ton of red flags,

549
00:40:16,420 --> 00:40:24,620
For instance, Eric Voorhees was one of the guy behind Satoshi Dice, the guy we threw out a long time ago, a decade ago.

550
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:32,320
He is now an investor in Citria, for instance, which is the current spam, bigger spam corporation attempt.

551
00:40:33,100 --> 00:40:35,920
And an obvious bad actor, in my opinion.

552
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:43,200
He started a shitcoin exchange just to extract people's sats from them, giving legitimacy to all this other shit.

553
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,780
This is what these people do over and over again.

554
00:40:45,780 --> 00:41:08,120
It's I like Bitcoin, buy my shitcoin. That's the mantra. They're going to do that over and over again. And it's going to reiterate, it's going to take different forms every time. But it's the same scheme, right? It's a way that they have realized that sats are insanely valuable and are only going to be more valuable in the future.

555
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:14,340
but they're stuck in this fiat evil villain, super villain mindset of, therefore, I should

556
00:41:14,340 --> 00:41:22,220
try to scam everyone out of their sats. It's bad acting. And to me, one of the more beautiful parts

557
00:41:22,220 --> 00:41:28,480
of Bitcoin is that that's where resilience resides. Because we kick these people out,

558
00:41:28,540 --> 00:41:47,040
that why it works It not because this wall of digital energy that part of how we come to consensus on shit but still the consensus has to be around that this is money Otherwise it doesn work Otherwise it doesn have the internal system to pay itself to pay its own players

559
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,160
The miners get paid in sats.

560
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:56,060
There's a reason for that, that they don't get paid in a briefcase full of dollar bills or something else.

561
00:41:56,220 --> 00:41:59,740
They're supposed to have an incentive to like sats.

562
00:41:59,740 --> 00:42:08,520
so so yeah so the reason i don't want to go too hard on the red flags of the connections between

563
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:14,940
people and who might be doing what here is exactly that that i think that the economic arguments are

564
00:42:14,940 --> 00:42:21,320
enough and i want like people to to truly grasp them because that's what truly will kill the spam

565
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:27,680
is if no one falls for this shit anymore like the way i see it buying an nft or buying an ordinal

566
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,740
and having it forever on the time chain.

567
00:42:30,740 --> 00:42:34,080
It just means buying a star in the Andromeda galaxy,

568
00:42:34,380 --> 00:42:37,560
except like, because I cannot interact with it

569
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,020
in any other way than any other person on Earth can.

570
00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:45,540
Like the ownership means nothing if that's the case,

571
00:42:45,620 --> 00:42:47,800
because everyone else can see it too.

572
00:42:48,020 --> 00:42:51,220
Everything else around it is always on a third-party website.

573
00:42:51,460 --> 00:42:54,720
The problem here is that this very contract

574
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:56,880
for owning the star in the Andromeda galaxy

575
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,040
fucks up my telescope, which is my node.

576
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:01,220
Yeah.

577
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,420
The fact that they're doing this,

578
00:43:04,420 --> 00:43:07,940
they're sort of graffitiing the contract on the telescope.

579
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:10,860
This may be a bad metaphor,

580
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,680
but I'm trying to visualize how this is detrimental

581
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,420
and why people should absolutely grok this.

582
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:18,560
But yeah, so let's go on here.

583
00:43:18,900 --> 00:43:19,500
Where were we?

584
00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:23,100
Yeah, well, what came to mind there,

585
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:24,720
I mean, like on the graffiti thing,

586
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:30,260
like going back to like not not laying out going to the who's doing what type thing i think there's

587
00:43:30,260 --> 00:43:35,740
an element of that that's important like rothbard talks about um you know it's it's not just so

588
00:43:35,740 --> 00:43:41,140
talking about like i guess the conspiracy element to it for me it's historically always been like

589
00:43:41,140 --> 00:43:44,780
say you go down to alex shone's rabbit hole when you start getting into liberty or whatever and

590
00:43:44,780 --> 00:43:49,920
it's like it's unnecessary where it's always like oh look at this doco or this person's doing this

591
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:55,520
it's all empirical. It's all requires evidence, case-based stuff, blah, blah, blah. Whereas the

592
00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:00,560
more powerful arguments are logic-based, which you can bring to the fore regardless of where you are.

593
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:05,940
And it's often on their own terms. And this is why I do lean into the economic literacy piece in

594
00:44:05,940 --> 00:44:10,040
terms of the devs and whatever. It's like, okay, well, if you accept Bitcoin as money,

595
00:44:10,620 --> 00:44:15,560
and then all the monetary economic, like the knowledge of Austrian economics that we have

596
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:21,480
understanding is behind us. And so on your own terms, what you are proposing, whether it's

597
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:26,240
opportun or whatever it is, there's changes that they make opening up the abuse cases from our

598
00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:31,940
angle. Like we can indicate that like it's the means you are using and not going to obtain the

599
00:44:31,940 --> 00:44:37,760
answer you're after. What would you say if they said that they disagreed with praxeology

600
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:43,660
epistemologically? Like if they refuse the whole axiomatic first principles?

601
00:44:43,660 --> 00:44:49,880
So if they like no Bitcoin, like if it's instead of going, yes, it is money, they go, no, it's a database.

602
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:50,720
Is that?

603
00:44:50,820 --> 00:44:51,500
Well, no, no, no.

604
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,940
More like, yes, it is money, but money is not what Rothbard says it is.

605
00:44:56,020 --> 00:44:56,840
It's this.

606
00:44:57,100 --> 00:45:01,220
Like I believe in modern monetary economics or whatever.

607
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:07,580
Look, I'd love to have those kind of like actual conversations, but no, they can't even answer the question of what problem money solves.

608
00:45:07,580 --> 00:45:11,960
Like it's beyond a joke, to be fair.

609
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,620
And I pressed, hey, basically dunk on me.

610
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,320
I'm calling you out multiple times, multiple areas.

611
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:20,540
And yeah, it's just crickets.

612
00:45:20,660 --> 00:45:25,720
And it's not just because I don't think like I'm an arsehole or whatever.

613
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:32,980
It's like, no, it's, hey, if you've got an arsehole and you're open to dunking on him

614
00:45:32,980 --> 00:45:38,340
severely, then you, and you know the answer and you're confident with it, then take it.

615
00:45:38,340 --> 00:45:42,860
And the answer, it's not like, oh, I like, do you like chocolate or vanilla?

616
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:43,740
It's like subjective.

617
00:45:43,860 --> 00:45:45,760
It's like, no, the answer is one plus one is two.

618
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:47,220
It's clear cut.

619
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:48,660
You can tell me it's two.

620
00:45:48,660 --> 00:45:49,600
And dunk on me.

621
00:45:49,660 --> 00:45:53,320
That's why I kind of try, like iron's meant to sharpen iron a bit in the approach to things.

622
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:59,220
But when X person gets called out and they've said they agree that Bitcoin's money, it's

623
00:45:59,220 --> 00:46:00,600
like, okay, well, what problems does it solve?

624
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:01,160
And you get nothing.

625
00:46:01,300 --> 00:46:02,900
I mean, what are you going to do with that?

626
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:03,920
Like, yeah.

627
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:08,320
So, and their textbook dev syndrome is like, so Stefan Casella has got,

628
00:46:08,340 --> 00:46:14,960
awesome little scenario where essentially it's critiquing engineers and which should dev devs in

629
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:19,540
particular but it's like they've got a tendency there's five kind of things which should i think

630
00:46:19,540 --> 00:46:24,380
you just read and you go oh that's bitcoin core in general but it's like one is they overestimate

631
00:46:24,380 --> 00:46:29,500
the applicability of technical thinking so they kind of have an engineering mindset it's all about

632
00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:35,780
empirical problem solving stuff um but they think that like having a political economic or philosophical

633
00:46:35,780 --> 00:46:41,060
approach is inappropriate, insufficient. It's all about engineering. Number two is like neglect

634
00:46:41,060 --> 00:46:46,100
theory and intellectual tradition. So anything established like in social science, humanities,

635
00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:50,340
if it's got no respect for, no one, generally speaking, no understanding for, and they try and

636
00:46:50,340 --> 00:46:54,860
build theories from scratch. Three is they're influenced by scientism. So it's like scientism

637
00:46:54,860 --> 00:46:59,760
being, it's applying the scientific method, but to humanities, social sciences, which is

638
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:05,900
inappropriate. We can talk about why that is, but it's actually less scientific where science means

639
00:47:05,900 --> 00:47:10,820
correct knowledge, which is like the kind of the origin of that term. And then you've got four,

640
00:47:10,900 --> 00:47:17,320
which is they go blind for like subjectivism in Austrian economics. And then five, they kind of

641
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:22,020
suffer from a kind of intellectual arrogance, which is a pattern with engineers who's identified,

642
00:47:22,020 --> 00:47:26,340
like they conquer their own field and they suddenly think they've got the ability to do

643
00:47:26,340 --> 00:47:31,020
that for elsewhere and other disciplines. So coming back to that top piece, that's what I see.

644
00:47:31,260 --> 00:47:36,700
And yes, it's, I love to evolve to have those actual conversations, but they can't even get

645
00:47:36,700 --> 00:47:41,640
off the ground. So, and I've been pushing for people to be involved. And there's almost the

646
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,680
point of like, I think every BIP, they talk about that needs to play like a Bitcoin improvement

647
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:53,660
protocol, a proposal needs to be like, it's all technical only, but for me, it's like monetary

648
00:47:53,660 --> 00:47:59,400
element needs to be part of that if it's bitcoin is money then does it like propose like four or

649
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,900
five different questions but it's like how do the answer that you're proposing something how does it

650
00:48:03,900 --> 00:48:10,560
improve um bitcoin what are the monetary properties that are being improved um are there any trade-offs

651
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:15,820
like the variety of things that is not being incorporated and they they think they the

652
00:48:15,820 --> 00:48:20,140
challenges they think they know they read something like eric for schoolies crypto economics or

653
00:48:20,140 --> 00:48:28,120
whatever, which is basically glorify Wikipedia articles. And if you think Bitcoin is market

654
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:34,220
fiat, that's your framing, like immediate red flags and I can go on. But yeah, that's what they

655
00:48:34,220 --> 00:48:39,000
kind of hold up. They don't read what I see, Bitcoin standard, they're reading that junk.

656
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:45,280
And yeah, then the problem is they think they know economics or they've gone to university

657
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,820
and they think they know economics and that's actually harder. You're more thick. It's of

658
00:48:48,820 --> 00:48:55,980
of knowledge you have to decompress from or throw out as opposed to being a blank slate

659
00:48:55,980 --> 00:48:58,680
and you can proceed in a clear way.

660
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:00,900
No, I couldn't agree more.

661
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:07,200
I mean, the a priori, it's so basic and yet so misunderstood.

662
00:49:07,780 --> 00:49:13,940
Like if you throw a rock into a pond, you can calculate when the rock will hit the seafloor.

663
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:18,520
And if you throw a human being into the pond, you have no idea what the human being will

664
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:24,120
do because they can swim in any direction. They can dive deep into the pond. They can do whatever

665
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:29,000
they want. And this is why praxeology is fundamentally different from the empirical

666
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:36,540
sciences. You cannot measure and expect to get equal results every time you measure because the

667
00:49:36,540 --> 00:49:41,740
market is always dynamic, always changing. It's never the same thing. It is a process. It's not

668
00:49:41,740 --> 00:49:48,920
a thing in itself. So the epistemology and the methodology here, I think it's super important.

669
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,800
One of my favorite Austrian economics books I mention a lot is Economic Science and the Austrian

670
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:59,720
Method by Hans-Hermann Hoppe, where he points out how Mises actually bridged the two worlds

671
00:49:59,720 --> 00:50:06,020
between the subjective and the objective. And it's beautiful. And I think Bitcoin has such a

672
00:50:06,020 --> 00:50:12,200
potential to be the ultimate tool to actually build that bridge between the two worlds where

673
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:19,140
human wants and needs can actually materialize in the most efficient way possible by having great

674
00:50:19,140 --> 00:50:25,220
money. So let's go on. What's your technical background? Like how technical would you

675
00:50:25,220 --> 00:50:33,280
characterize yourself as? Yeah, I would often, there's like a BISC presentation. I did it

676
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:39,400
Bitcoin Alive, which you presented a few times, like 2024, where I'm like, I say I'm like,

677
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:40,500
I'm not that technical guy.

678
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:47,000
Like I would say my dad on the sidelines, I was on board theoretically, you know, we're

679
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,800
talking 2013 or whatever kind of graph convinced me.

680
00:50:50,180 --> 00:50:55,500
But it was sitting on the sidelines for quite some time, given the practical side of things,

681
00:50:55,500 --> 00:51:00,500
the more technical side of things is what I was more of the barrier or blocker at that

682
00:51:00,500 --> 00:51:00,800
point.

683
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:22,600
But given the forced interests of sorts where you used to have this mythology around Bitcoin core and the devs being the most reviewed source codes that are in existence and all this type of stuff.

684
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:28,060
and then seeing the actual reality a bit more behind the scenes where Marcellus like picks up

685
00:51:28,060 --> 00:51:34,480
like no they redefined data carrier size and it was pushed by through next to no discussion no

686
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:39,220
you know indication around um around that that's like okay open my eyes a little bit so it's kind

687
00:51:39,220 --> 00:51:45,040
of forced me in a way to become um a whole lot more technical technically focused so like I'm

688
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:51,540
I'm on that kind of journey so to speak but I wouldn't characterize myself as being completely

689
00:51:51,540 --> 00:51:55,920
across it but this is my kind of i think i've had that pushback before of sorts where uh in terms of

690
00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:02,860
well it's like in response to the changes that core have been pushing through and knowing from

691
00:52:02,860 --> 00:52:08,040
a monetary perspective and understanding like their claims or what they think how it improves

692
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:14,180
it but not being overt at all so like even just the um but as it's like not myself in isolation

693
00:52:14,180 --> 00:52:20,120
right there's a lot more smarter people technical on our side per se who also are completely aligned

694
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:25,200
And you're talking about folks like Luke, who's, you know, saved Bitcoin several times.

695
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:35,680
It's a devil's advocates argument I feel compelled to make because it applies to me too.

696
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:40,760
Like both you and I are more from the monetary perspective than from the coding perspective.

697
00:52:41,420 --> 00:52:46,140
And ideally you want the intersection of the Venn diagram.

698
00:52:46,140 --> 00:52:50,540
you want your core devs to be in there, like technical and monetary.

699
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:52,900
And that's what we're trying to get at here.

700
00:52:53,060 --> 00:52:57,280
I mean, yeah, and Luke certainly seems like a guy that is in that intersection.

701
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:00,660
However, I disagree with Luke on a lot of other topics,

702
00:53:00,660 --> 00:53:05,260
but I don't think that necessarily dilutes my faith in him

703
00:53:05,260 --> 00:53:08,140
as a good force for Bitcoin or whatever.

704
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:14,160
Like, I don't doubt his ability to think straight on this stuff,

705
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:21,220
especially given his history that where he has been proven right many times over so yeah the whole

706
00:53:21,220 --> 00:53:27,660
yeah there's no there's no um there's no call to personality here like it's um for us it's it's

707
00:53:27,660 --> 00:53:33,680
reason logic based and um obviously by luke and you're going down like talking about stays and

708
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:39,880
whatever but um he's definitely um something who i say like intuitive like he used to probably see

709
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:41,640
as it was interviewed like a cool,

710
00:53:41,740 --> 00:53:43,200
like the devs currently do,

711
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:44,720
like a cool tech project,

712
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,820
but that changed into along the lines

713
00:53:47,820 --> 00:53:49,280
where you can see it's overtly,

714
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:51,160
it's like no humanity's best chance

715
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:52,260
of free money essentially

716
00:53:52,260 --> 00:53:53,520
and understands that.

717
00:53:53,700 --> 00:53:53,860
Do I?

718
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:54,920
And so intuitively though,

719
00:53:55,100 --> 00:53:56,400
where it's like decentralization,

720
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:58,440
I think he's on the pulse

721
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,700
and like if that no longer is the case,

722
00:54:00,780 --> 00:54:01,680
well, it's like we're not going to,

723
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:03,220
you know, go off a cliff or anything.

724
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:05,600
So, but it's definitely where,

725
00:54:06,220 --> 00:54:06,900
yeah, you're right.

726
00:54:06,980 --> 00:54:08,140
We want the devs to,

727
00:54:08,380 --> 00:54:09,680
whoever is making a proposal

728
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,020
and those changes to understand human action

729
00:54:12,020 --> 00:54:13,840
and the consequences of certain things,

730
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,820
but also being crossed out and being both.

731
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:20,060
So like, yeah, I think historically,

732
00:54:20,540 --> 00:54:24,440
I think there's a bit of an angle of the number going up

733
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,220
where plebs who have like done the work

734
00:54:27,220 --> 00:54:29,200
and I've seen this some other friends

735
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,080
where they've, you know, have more time

736
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:32,860
where they say retiring or whatever it is,

737
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:35,640
not retiring, but focusing or more of an incentive

738
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:36,900
to protect their stack.

739
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:39,580
And if that is then involving learning to code,

740
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:44,840
learning, you know, grokking Bitcoin essentially from a technical perspective, like they need to,

741
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:48,700
and you have more of a self-interest as the value proposition goes up to do that.

742
00:54:49,140 --> 00:54:55,480
And then I think also captures a bit of why like the devs, I think they don't state it,

743
00:54:55,560 --> 00:55:00,120
like the spam perspective where they don't say, oh, the security budget is a concern,

744
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:06,200
but they can write it off where if you thought that it's a threat, it's a problem, like at some

745
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:11,000
point the miners are not going to get paid, you know, given the little more block rewards

746
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,440
down the track and then fees are the only thing going to carry stuff.

747
00:55:14,820 --> 00:55:15,360
Like what then?

748
00:55:15,420 --> 00:55:19,740
You get a death spiral of people not, why would you mine kind of thing.

749
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:24,900
Where it's like, no, if you've got X amount of Bitcoin and it's like you want to, there's

750
00:55:24,900 --> 00:55:29,600
a self-interest to secure that in a sense of like protect it or decide what it goes

751
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:33,080
in the next block or, you know, where the hash is being pointed at.

752
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:39,520
um you have um uh incentive so like well maybe it's like one percent of your wealth ten percent

753
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:46,320
five percent ten percent as um even just a pleb to to to join and as an educational perspective as

754
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:52,640
well so i think that down the track it's it's actually no black people will have incentives to

755
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:58,720
to run you know mine themselves and that's more decentralizing and it's a well it's not just

756
00:55:58,720 --> 00:56:05,200
monetary profit. It's not understanding practical definition of profit is a psychic profit. It's not

757
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:10,880
monetary only. People don't care just about numbers. I mean, yes, that's the most use case

758
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:14,880
from an economics perspective. We can assume that, but Rothbard gives an example around,

759
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:22,880
it's the owner of a business who gives his cousin's friend a job or something like that.

760
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:28,400
um it's it's there's a element of um so psychic profit is the thing that actually matters and so

761
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:34,720
like i as a you know mining with ocean or whatever and you're filtering odds node runner running knots

762
00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:41,280
filtering out spam there's satisfaction in terms of um you know the filtering element the profit of

763
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:46,320
that in that regard or mining and then kicking some other spam transactions out into the the next

764
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:52,160
block um not including them like there's also monetary element but also a psychic profit point

765
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:59,220
too. And Grass Mechanic talks about it as it's like kind of miners trying to core assumes like

766
00:56:59,220 --> 00:57:03,420
they want to pick up pennies in front of a steamroller type stuff. And it's like, no,

767
00:57:03,500 --> 00:57:09,020
not necessarily. And I think it's just been needing more to highlight the long-term economic

768
00:57:09,020 --> 00:57:15,180
elements, which I think are so important in terms of ensuring the quality of money

769
00:57:15,180 --> 00:57:22,080
is maintained. And I know, and that's the kind of missing link where they, I think it's ignoring

770
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:26,780
in a vacuum, they go to the dev mine instead of like X, yes, cat and mouse, get to this

771
00:57:26,780 --> 00:57:28,140
end point and that's not going to be great.

772
00:57:28,220 --> 00:57:32,520
And they compare that end state to the current state where it's like, well, no, in those

773
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:34,320
steps, you're making it harder.

774
00:57:34,860 --> 00:57:36,140
And then what is also the signal?

775
00:57:36,380 --> 00:57:40,800
So getting people to leave and go elsewhere, where they also don't factor in a graffiti

776
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:46,000
analogy where think about like, it's a monetary network, just like a train or transport network.

777
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,480
And so we're like Grand Central Station or wherever it is.

778
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,160
And you've got the whole subway and the subway there.

779
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,600
And the whole point is to go from A to B, you know, transport wise.

780
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:59,320
And that's all the monetary, the purpose of that network, that transport network.

781
00:58:00,100 --> 00:58:01,560
And then, okay, well, hang on.

782
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:02,400
We've got this opportunity.

783
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,420
There's this side wall, this kind of where graffiti can go.

784
00:58:07,460 --> 00:58:12,660
And instead of going, well, because some people do graffiti and it's like on the train, instead

785
00:58:12,660 --> 00:58:19,020
of like putting in policy measures or whatever it takes to reduce their ability to graffiti

786
00:58:19,020 --> 00:58:24,160
or slow down trains or whatever it is, you go, well, hang on,

787
00:58:24,260 --> 00:58:26,720
we can make it, there's a graffiti wall we can give them

788
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:28,040
where they can go and do graffiti.

789
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,880
And then in the hopes of instead of getting in their way

790
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,520
and slowing down the network elsewhere, they can come in

791
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:37,140
and just do their graffiti there.

792
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:41,420
But it's like, okay, well, you're then also incentivizing

793
00:58:41,420 --> 00:58:44,200
maybe more graffiti guys to come globally.

794
00:58:44,660 --> 00:58:46,380
Like it's not just a train network locally.

795
00:58:46,380 --> 00:58:52,240
it's like hey signal to all the graffiti artists in the world you get hassles from everywhere else

796
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:57,560
but then this this section lasts forever it's not you don't have less risk come over here and you

797
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:01,120
can we're going to make that wall a hundred thousand times bigger or whatever gonna

798
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:06,060
opportune increase it's like no it should be that's a signal on the quality of it as well

799
00:59:06,060 --> 00:59:11,960
and yeah the the phil baggis uh sorry the the baggis article around the quality quality of

800
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:18,180
money really goes into a lot of it. The economic angle has historically been around the quantity

801
00:59:18,180 --> 00:59:25,160
theory of money where an increase in the quantity obviously has an impact, but he talks about and

802
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:30,220
dives into more about the quality of money. So like the signal, even if no changes happen on

803
00:59:30,220 --> 00:59:37,400
Bitcoin. So like by analogy, the state signals, well, we're going to increase a quantitative

804
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:41,320
easing. They just talk about it or whatever. That can send a signal to the market that the

805
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:45,700
quality of money is in the US dollar is going to go down. And so from a core perspective,

806
00:59:45,700 --> 00:59:51,260
which I don't think they have any understanding about is that the signal that they can send

807
00:59:51,260 --> 00:59:57,860
as well can have a massive impact on if Bitcoin is money, then of that, the quality of the network

808
00:59:57,860 --> 01:00:02,920
and who comes and who doesn't and what is maintained and what isn't in like with the VC

809
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:08,280
money you're inviting in, and that's potentially corrupting as well.

810
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:26,460
Yeah, and there's a bigger impact. The current price drop here may or may have something to do with people getting cold feet because they're afraid of this whole core authority being implemented and all this debate's going on. Of course it has an impact.

811
01:00:26,460 --> 01:00:33,060
The thing I hope will happen is that everyone's happy that this conflict is happening because it means Bitcoin works.

812
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:40,580
Like if Bitcoiners were complacent and didn't react to stuff, that would mean Bitcoin isn't working to me.

813
01:00:40,820 --> 01:00:46,080
Like that would be way much more of a red flag than there being a conflict.

814
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:52,660
Like we should be in constant conflict or rather in constant argument to make a Hopian leap here.

815
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:54,560
We should be in constant argumentation.

816
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:57,180
We should never have an actual armed conflict.

817
01:00:57,460 --> 01:01:02,640
We should resolve all the conflicts through communications, which is what we're trying to do here.

818
01:01:03,180 --> 01:01:16,420
So shall we get to the gist of the proposed forks, like what they are and what the core arguments, pun intended, for them are, rather the knots arguments.

819
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:21,360
In your mind, why should people run knots?

820
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:24,180
Why should people be pro BIP-110?

821
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:30,960
why should they be pro the cat if that's your stance like or or or the opposite yeah yeah so

822
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:37,520
why run knots to me it's like it's a from a policy level from a supporting um those it's like it's

823
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:43,680
the bitcoin is monetary only angle i'd say luke saying luke's keeping there is choice it's like

824
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:48,560
choice to the node runners like not taking away choice um i'd probably be more inclined to have

825
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:54,800
the default settings for that should be the monetary only angle of where like a lot harsher

826
01:01:54,800 --> 01:02:00,320
around you know the dials were say you can change to like mitigate a lot of the different data types

827
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:06,760
and so from from my perspective it's like why not it's it's sending a signal but also a practical

828
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:14,280
perspective of like what can you do individually um and to support bitcoin is as monetary only

829
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:20,060
like improve its quality. And whilst it might be folks consider that not much, but like if everyone,

830
01:02:20,580 --> 01:02:25,180
you know, I do it for the sake of it's the right thing to do from my perspective where I'm not

831
01:02:25,180 --> 01:02:31,100
adding to the trash, I'm trying everything I can to mitigate and filter all else being equal.

832
01:02:31,100 --> 01:02:36,520
Like it is harder to, to propagate across the network than it otherwise would be. And then like,

833
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:40,180
yeah, then there's the consequence of, you know, this is the debate we have over several years,

834
01:02:40,180 --> 01:02:46,260
but like it's kind of shifted because it was always you can't do anything about it but it's

835
01:02:46,260 --> 01:02:51,480
like ignoring that it's all about rate mitigation it's about limiting rate limiting it's about

836
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:59,360
mitigation it's not about this nirvana fallacy of you can eliminate spam where um that that's yeah

837
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:04,000
not necessarily the goal and so that was attacking a straw man but that's kind of faded that in

838
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:12,140
discussion because, yeah, the existence of the cat, which Claire Ostromor has, as you

839
01:03:12,140 --> 01:03:13,300
know, Nim has come out with.

840
01:03:14,140 --> 01:03:17,080
And the fascinating thing is like, so this is an easy way to summarize this.

841
01:03:17,140 --> 01:03:18,440
I think it's like backwards looking.

842
01:03:19,500 --> 01:03:27,440
And then you've got BIP-110 that is Danthemum that's forward looking per se.

843
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:36,440
but with the cat it talks about for want of better words so like using the ordinals

844
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:42,500
and a variety of the non-monetary data kind of protocols it's taken in for their word they

845
01:03:42,500 --> 01:03:47,420
suggest that they're flagging like signaling this is non-monetary data we've heard from Casey

846
01:03:47,420 --> 01:03:53,420
that he in the ordinals creator admits it's not nothing to do with Bitcoin the asset itself so

847
01:03:53,420 --> 01:03:59,000
my book, yeah, it's non-monetary, it's spam. Regardless if there's a valid transaction or not,

848
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:03,900
we can go down that rabbit hole of the trope is valid transaction is valid transaction.

849
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:13,460
And we talk about historically the inflation bug, the 2010 overflow piece where a lot of these

850
01:04:13,460 --> 01:04:19,940
tropes that people push back on have already on their own terms. They finally get a contradiction

851
01:04:19,940 --> 01:04:22,400
with what they currently support with what's already happened,

852
01:04:22,460 --> 01:04:23,320
but they're just not aware of it.

853
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:27,280
But yeah, ultimately the cat, I think one is like often

854
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:29,120
when I've been pushing, discussing this with others,

855
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:32,280
it's a bit of their floor premise.

856
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:35,560
So those that have, they talk about confiscation

857
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:39,500
for want a better word or freezing or any of those that it's like

858
01:04:39,500 --> 01:04:42,700
one, it's based on that they actually have ownership of it,

859
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:43,660
which they don't.

860
01:04:44,060 --> 01:04:46,100
But interesting trope is where it's like pushing.

861
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:49,860
So those who are NFTs, ordinals, and they're very fearful

862
01:04:49,860 --> 01:04:55,780
of the cat it's okay essentially like i'm like where's your art like you you've you've loved

863
01:04:55,780 --> 01:05:01,460
showcasing your art right like where is that and often pushing them for that um a few people have

864
01:05:01,460 --> 01:05:06,420
provided that or have essentially provided it and it's like okay well now you know from a cat

865
01:05:06,420 --> 01:05:12,740
perspective it identifies via their own index what they consider non-monetary like dick butts

866
01:05:12,740 --> 01:05:19,300
and all that jazz it's flagged as non-monetary and so it can capture that um and then using those

867
01:05:19,860 --> 01:05:26,700
not heuristics, but like kind of rules of sorts that they're abiding by can identify,

868
01:05:27,140 --> 01:05:28,860
well, these are non-monetary transactions.

869
01:05:29,100 --> 01:05:33,100
So it's like those transactions that are under 1,000 sats,

870
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:36,980
so essentially 86 cents Australian or whatever currently.

871
01:05:37,900 --> 01:05:45,680
But the monetary, the sats piece is just the fact,

872
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:49,400
it's not the fact that it's like, oh, it's low in value.

873
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:56,760
from my perspective, quote, dust, like, yes, that 86 cents or like the thousand sats,

874
01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:06,000
that if, you know, Bitcoin long-term, like 10Xs or to like $100 or what is it, like 116

875
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:15,820
times to like $100, Bitcoin would have to be $10 million a coin. So those things can become value

876
01:06:15,820 --> 01:06:22,780
long-term, but it's more the fact that, yeah, it's overtly, objectively, we can determine it's

877
01:06:22,780 --> 01:06:31,820
spam and so it shouldn't be there. I'd say the best example is repudiate it, kind of like the

878
01:06:31,820 --> 01:06:37,300
concept of public debt and private debt. Rothbard talks about the national debt and public debt and

879
01:06:37,300 --> 01:06:42,820
repudianting it. The public debt is not the same as private debt. They should not be treated the

880
01:06:42,820 --> 01:06:47,900
same way. If, for instance, by analogy, so if the Soviet Union racks up all this public debt,

881
01:06:47,980 --> 01:06:51,800
or the United States racks up all this public debt, it's much clearer in the Soviet Union case,

882
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:56,480
it's like this dictator makes up all this public debt, and then they get overthrown,

883
01:06:56,480 --> 01:07:02,020
or the populist revolts. Should the populist still be hamstrung by that public debt? No.

884
01:07:02,660 --> 01:07:04,780
And so it's repudiated. And the United States-

885
01:07:04,780 --> 01:07:06,200
They never consented to it.

886
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:11,100
Yeah, no, no. There's no consent. And even the United States, there's no consent to the state.

887
01:07:11,100 --> 01:07:14,500
There's no contract with the state that changed the rules amongst the game and all that.

888
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:18,220
But even then, the United States has repudiated the national debt three times,

889
01:07:18,340 --> 01:07:19,860
they've ended central banking three times.

890
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:21,940
But historically, there's a few examples.

891
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:26,200
Once or twice, Ross Budd talks about in repudiating the public debt there.

892
01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:29,260
And so by analogy, there's a distinction there.

893
01:07:29,660 --> 01:07:33,140
But most people would be like, well, no, no, no, it should be treated the same.

894
01:07:33,220 --> 01:07:34,000
You can't do that.

895
01:07:34,460 --> 01:07:38,040
But when you understand more in depth, you understand, well, no,

896
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:40,940
there is a clear principle here and you can.

897
01:07:41,100 --> 01:07:42,200
And it has happened.

898
01:07:42,340 --> 01:07:44,600
That was what the most justifiable approach.

899
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:50,340
The same thing with Bitcoin and the cat and understanding what is monetary, what isn't,

900
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:54,560
and what should be maintained or what should be removed.

901
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:56,380
There is a potential signal.

902
01:07:56,520 --> 01:08:01,580
And then people talk about like, is that a slippery slope of, well, OFAC compliance,

903
01:08:01,700 --> 01:08:04,680
like you putting in place the tools for others to get on board.

904
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:10,420
And it's like, well, no, not if, because it's like, if you want to say one plus one equals

905
01:08:10,420 --> 01:08:15,140
two, what's monetary isn't. You have that whole rich Austrian economics understanding of economics

906
01:08:15,140 --> 01:08:20,340
background. It's clear cut. It's definitive. You can argue like, yes, one plus one is two or not.

907
01:08:20,400 --> 01:08:26,240
But if you don't have that understanding, it becomes, yes, it can feel like willy nilly and

908
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:35,300
it's not deductive and axiomatic and a priori. It's a little like empirical. It's like hypothetical.

909
01:08:35,300 --> 01:08:39,580
cool, like then that might feel like a slippery slope.

910
01:08:39,580 --> 01:08:41,300
And that's why you have that fear.

911
01:08:41,300 --> 01:08:45,500
And so it is a very much a pattern I've seen of those who have done the work, understand

912
01:08:45,500 --> 01:08:49,700
what Austrian economics is and the praxeology and the basics can understand, well, we are

913
01:08:49,700 --> 01:08:51,100
very being definitive here.

914
01:08:51,100 --> 01:08:52,420
We do understand it as well.

915
01:08:52,420 --> 01:08:53,960
Again, it's on their own terms.

916
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:58,840
And so, yes, you weren't repudiating that and it's justifiable.

917
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:03,100
I don't think it's called calling it confiscation is an accurate use of term.

918
01:09:03,100 --> 01:09:10,340
I think that is built on a flawed premise of accepting IP and you can own images and whatnot, which is incorrect.

919
01:09:10,340 --> 01:09:16,160
But yeah, there's that angle to it, which I think is a challenge.

920
01:09:17,100 --> 01:09:20,700
Let me offer you my perspective and see what you think about it.

921
01:09:20,740 --> 01:09:36,800
Let dissect this Yeah The thing is the false notion that Bitcoin is backed by digital energy is what behind a lot of this And that code is law Like what constitutes a valid transaction or not is ultimately up to the network

922
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:41,280
And we can tolerate a lot of stuff, but that doesn't mean we approve of it.

923
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:48,820
And there's a great South Park episode called The Death Camp of Tolerance, where they point out the difference between tolerance and approval.

924
01:09:48,820 --> 01:09:55,440
Just because you tolerate something doesn't mean that you agree with it or approve of it or think it's courageous or whatever.

925
01:09:55,980 --> 01:10:00,800
So even the threat of this fork happening has reduced the amount of spam.

926
01:10:01,260 --> 01:10:02,140
And I love that.

927
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:05,500
It's pointing out so many things about this.

928
01:10:05,580 --> 01:10:11,240
It's pointing out that the network decides, and we'll probably never get a consensus around this fork.

929
01:10:11,300 --> 01:10:12,500
I can buy that argument.

930
01:10:12,980 --> 01:10:15,860
I shouldn't say that, but we'll see what happens.

931
01:10:15,860 --> 01:10:27,820
But even if there isn't consensus around it, the fact that it's on the table and the fact that there might be consensus around it should make all the spammers rethink their business models.

932
01:10:27,820 --> 01:10:33,320
Because all of a sudden, this guarantee that this will be here forever simply isn't there anymore.

933
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:43,040
So their whole forever thing is dependent on what node runners at the end of the day choose to, what kind of software they choose to run.

934
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:48,160
so and and this is the beauty of the system was always the beauty of the system it's just that

935
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:55,140
it's so misinterpreted since it's been the proof of work is being hailed as the big thing that makes

936
01:10:55,140 --> 01:11:01,640
bitcoin work but proof of work is just one small part of a much larger machine that at the end of

937
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:07,740
the day runs on consensus and what an agreement on a fixed set of rules what you and i decide that

938
01:11:07,740 --> 01:11:14,560
Bitcoin is. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, just the fact that, that the cat is on the table and points that out

939
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:20,520
is very beautiful to me. Yeah. And it's, you're right. It's that consensus. So like it's, it's,

940
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:28,680
yeah, the consistency for those that are maybe like hesitant to, to support. Yeah. You point out

941
01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:33,180
like on their own terms. Okay. It's like, well, talking about like a confiscation of sorts of

942
01:11:33,180 --> 01:11:38,300
freezing assets and like well yeah then you ask about the inflation bug in like 2010 um like the

943
01:11:38,300 --> 01:11:46,540
the overflow where there were coins that essentially um uh confiscated and it's and the question of

944
01:11:46,540 --> 01:11:51,900
like press people that have had that mindset and like so they were you were against that uh you

945
01:11:51,900 --> 01:11:57,660
know the 86 billion or whatever it was that were the two transactions the utxos that had that um

946
01:11:57,660 --> 01:12:02,760
amount in there, like based on what, like, why would you object to that? Which you rightfully

947
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:09,740
you object to that and fix that and fork to ensure that Bitcoin doesn't have, you know,

948
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:16,300
186 billion and whatever Bitcoin. What's that based on? And the answer that I would always

949
01:12:16,300 --> 01:12:20,820
not get, like they just block mental block for whatever reason, I don't understand like the

950
01:12:20,820 --> 01:12:26,940
premise of the question the answer is like we are we the reason we know that is not great

951
01:12:26,940 --> 01:12:33,540
shouldn't be done on their own terms of you think bitcoin is money is because yeah you've got the

952
01:12:33,540 --> 01:12:40,140
whole field of economics and knowledge that indicates why inflation is bad and why increasing

953
01:12:40,140 --> 01:12:48,140
the money supply is detrimental unnecessary and isn't needed and so if you don't like that's the

954
01:12:48,140 --> 01:12:54,380
the key thing to draw through. And then that same answer of why we've hard forked and fixed that was

955
01:12:54,380 --> 01:13:00,100
like consensus accepted then, but also it's based on what? It's based on that understanding of

956
01:13:00,100 --> 01:13:06,740
economics and prior knowledge regarding that. And so the same can be applied. Those same principles

957
01:13:06,740 --> 01:13:13,280
can be applied to spam and the monetary or the non-monetary stuff that is there. And that's why

958
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:17,560
there's a consistency there for those that I think support getting rid of that stuff. And for me,

959
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:24,540
it's reduced yeah what what what what helps improve bitcoin's quality is money um and what

960
01:13:24,540 --> 01:13:30,020
yeah in essence and so we've got there's the cat which is which i think is amusing as well because

961
01:13:30,020 --> 01:13:36,440
out of that you see greg max or whatever talking about like to the mailing list around banning

962
01:13:36,440 --> 01:13:42,420
those that are proposing confiscation quote-unquote quote confiscating coins but then you have

963
01:13:42,420 --> 01:13:48,640
Peter Willey, you know, Boxstream already talking about with quantum coins, updating the algorithm

964
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:55,760
to do that. And so like consistency doesn't exist. Actually, it's funny, like I don't,

965
01:13:55,920 --> 01:14:01,620
those coins shouldn't be changed and actually confiscated or stolen or like changed.

966
01:14:01,780 --> 01:14:05,520
From my, like Conrad Graf in his book, Bitcoin's Ownable, like it's chapter four,

967
01:14:05,780 --> 01:14:10,700
it talks about brain wallet scanning, brain wallet, like the elements of trespass and theft

968
01:14:10,700 --> 01:14:12,120
and talks and dives into that.

969
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:14,780
And there's a very solid scenario around like,

970
01:14:14,980 --> 01:14:17,440
well, those who are white hat,

971
01:14:17,660 --> 01:14:20,260
you know, say this is the example of like that brain wallet,

972
01:14:20,380 --> 01:14:22,640
like scanning to the quantum threat.

973
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:25,400
Well, if you've got that quantum ability,

974
01:14:25,620 --> 01:14:27,880
is it like there's white hat, there's black hat,

975
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:29,180
there's gray hat, there's like,

976
01:14:29,420 --> 01:14:31,580
there's a variety of things you can kind of go through

977
01:14:31,580 --> 01:14:32,040
and talk about.

978
01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:33,080
But yeah, that's again,

979
01:14:33,140 --> 01:14:35,400
just another key of them missing the economic element.

980
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:37,580
And that's definitely a concern.

981
01:14:39,540 --> 01:14:39,680
Yeah.

982
01:14:39,680 --> 01:14:41,160
So, I mean, that's the cat.

983
01:14:41,380 --> 01:14:45,580
And then for more forward looking is like BIP, yeah, 110,

984
01:14:46,140 --> 01:14:51,300
which is, I guess, like a temporary limit.

985
01:14:51,340 --> 01:14:54,380
It's got a temporary limit on the size of data fields at the consensus level.

986
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:58,760
So it's kind of in order to correct distorted incentives

987
01:14:58,760 --> 01:15:01,680
caused by standardizing support for arbitrary data

988
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:05,320
and then refocuses priorities on improving Bitcoin's money.

989
01:15:05,420 --> 01:15:08,780
So it's like temporary protection, limits on data storage

990
01:15:08,780 --> 01:15:11,220
and preserves monetary use and refocuses on Bitcoin.

991
01:15:11,780 --> 01:15:15,820
It kind of bore out of a threat around like emergency threat

992
01:15:15,820 --> 01:15:19,500
from perspective of CSAM type stuff,

993
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:21,800
but then more for looking around.

994
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:24,140
There's like an activation point in nine months.

995
01:15:25,480 --> 01:15:32,640
There's a minor, potentially like wanting miners to fork across,

996
01:15:34,060 --> 01:15:36,660
whereas like a minor activated soft fork,

997
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:38,680
which hopefully they activate before then,

998
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:40,500
but if not, then it's UASF.

999
01:15:40,700 --> 01:15:42,920
But yeah, that gets kind of into the technical weeds.

1000
01:15:43,180 --> 01:15:44,940
But yeah, that's definitely more forward-looking.

1001
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:46,460
And it's again, so like, again,

1002
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:48,560
whatever improves Bitcoin's quality is money,

1003
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:51,560
sends the right signal, you know, I'm all for that.

1004
01:15:51,700 --> 01:15:53,340
But yeah, I can understand the concerns

1005
01:15:53,340 --> 01:15:54,680
some folks might have around

1006
01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:57,020
the quote-unquote confiscation type things

1007
01:15:57,020 --> 01:15:59,040
where, again, if you don't have that,

1008
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:01,620
there's no slippery slope like one plus one equals two.

1009
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:04,480
We can understand what is monetary properties,

1010
01:16:04,700 --> 01:16:05,840
what is sound monetary properties,

1011
01:16:06,240 --> 01:16:07,720
what improves and what doesn't improve

1012
01:16:07,720 --> 01:16:12,840
Bitcoin's quality is money. There's no chance like OFAC compliance stuff. Bitcoin has reacted

1013
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:18,340
to Mara Mining, who did that several years ago and was sent packing and stopped them. It was

1014
01:16:18,340 --> 01:16:24,800
because the social layer and really the only real, like that layer reacted in a way it should

1015
01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:30,680
and pushed, overtly like resulted in them stopping that. And so the challenge is they haven't

1016
01:16:31,240 --> 01:16:36,140
continued, like the same reaction hasn't happened to spam and non-monetary data,

1017
01:16:36,140 --> 01:16:40,900
ordinals the scams there partly i think you have to look at not just the technical side but the

1018
01:16:40,900 --> 01:16:47,260
social side and so like devs are not operating in a vacuum um vcs brink and others which you know

1019
01:16:47,260 --> 01:16:51,700
this goes into the conspiratorial side but there's definitely self-interest there no strings doesn't

1020
01:16:51,700 --> 01:17:00,440
mean no strings uh i'd say to the uh the cat thing just to comment on that one thing like

1021
01:17:00,440 --> 01:17:07,080
what constitutes a valid transaction or not was never it was always up to the network what that

1022
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:13,180
was so so like this is the thing you have to keep in mind when because and i love that you went back

1023
01:17:13,180 --> 01:17:18,080
to conrad groff because our bitcoin's ownable because it all ties back to that the like

1024
01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:25,360
information is not ownable and the consensus in a distributed network is not something that is up

1025
01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:30,120
to you it is up to the network it is up to the network what bitcoin is and what bitcoin wants

1026
01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:33,880
to do and use it as at your own peril.

1027
01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:36,500
That is true for hodlers as well as spammers.

1028
01:17:36,860 --> 01:17:44,200
You decide how much trust you want to put in the ability of Bitcoiners to act as Bitcoiners,

1029
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:46,360
if you will, to protect the network.

1030
01:17:46,620 --> 01:17:50,220
I mean, it's something for everyone and for everyone to consider.

1031
01:17:50,500 --> 01:17:58,200
And this is the irony of it all is that the same mechanism that makes the spammers confident

1032
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:02,900
is the thing that makes hodlers less confident and vice versa.

1033
01:18:02,900 --> 01:18:07,120
If the hodlers can be confident that the network will throw out the spammers,

1034
01:18:07,780 --> 01:18:12,260
then the spammers will feel less confident that their shit will last forever.

1035
01:18:12,440 --> 01:18:13,800
So there's a dynamic here.

1036
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:18,800
And this is how Bitcoin actually works, regardless of what any technical person says,

1037
01:18:18,900 --> 01:18:23,760
because at the end of the day, it's all about people choosing what software to run.

1038
01:18:23,760 --> 01:18:30,180
and sure right now it looks like an overwhelming amount of people choose to just upgrade without

1039
01:18:30,180 --> 01:18:35,840
asking questions and that may or may not be the case in the future but there's no 100 certainty

1040
01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:43,260
here that's that's sort of the point anyway where they annoyingly like you're you're building your

1041
01:18:43,260 --> 01:18:51,220
effort like pointing out the reality of of of what money is what bitcoin is what um spam is and

1042
01:18:51,220 --> 01:18:56,120
educating in that sense of like economic literacy and making those connections for people and you're

1043
01:18:56,120 --> 01:19:02,100
building consensus in a sense but some of the the chief spam enablers i've had discussions over time

1044
01:19:02,100 --> 01:19:08,380
like just can't get their their head through like uh that you don't have consensus or whatever it's

1045
01:19:08,380 --> 01:19:14,380
like yeah well aware but like it's it's if understanding that i think bitcoin is money and

1046
01:19:14,380 --> 01:19:19,680
and bitcoiners if you ask them and i've done the polls where it's you know small sample size but

1047
01:19:19,680 --> 01:19:24,340
essentially is Bitcoin money or a database. And like, you know, everyone's, it's like 80, 90%,

1048
01:19:24,340 --> 01:19:28,300
like, no, it's money. And so like, that is what is accepted. And it's like, okay, well,

1049
01:19:28,300 --> 01:19:32,120
these are the consequences that everyone, it'd be different if, if you're trying to push shit up a

1050
01:19:32,120 --> 01:19:36,840
hill, so to speak, where it's, you're going to network and then something is completely anathema

1051
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:41,460
to it. Um, and people disagree completely and you're trying to change all that. It's like,

1052
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:46,180
no, no, no. From our perspective, everyone, almost everyone agrees it's money. They pay

1053
01:19:46,180 --> 01:19:51,740
lip service to its money, even bad actors or those who are economically literate understand

1054
01:19:51,740 --> 01:19:57,200
the debate can't go on. They need to say it is, otherwise they get immediately dismissed

1055
01:19:57,200 --> 01:20:04,880
and no one gives a shit about their opinion because it's that ignorant and counter to what

1056
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:12,800
Bitcoin is. It doesn't deserve a foot or an element of respect. So that's the tactic I saw

1057
01:20:12,800 --> 01:20:16,900
that has changed from the core side where instead of it's data,

1058
01:20:17,140 --> 01:20:21,020
oh, who cares if you're, you know, dick butt's a dick butt,

1059
01:20:21,180 --> 01:20:22,940
like, you know, it's not up to me.

1060
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:26,240
Versus like, no, they've lent heavily into, oh, yes, it is money.

1061
01:20:26,420 --> 01:20:28,060
Like add and back merch, yes, it is.

1062
01:20:28,480 --> 01:20:31,760
And then you question, okay, we'll do a bit better than that, please.

1063
01:20:31,880 --> 01:20:32,340
Can you?

1064
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:34,940
And you get no, you don't.

1065
01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:38,980
Or there's this ignoring and you're heading in the sand type stuff

1066
01:20:38,980 --> 01:20:40,840
where demonstrated preference,

1067
01:20:41,080 --> 01:20:44,880
like a concept where you demonstrate your preference to action.

1068
01:20:45,180 --> 01:20:48,320
And so, no, they don't care about its money.

1069
01:20:48,520 --> 01:20:49,700
Like they don't.

1070
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:53,540
And either it's that or it's that, you know,

1071
01:20:53,580 --> 01:20:55,580
assuming good faith, it's their economic literacy.

1072
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:58,660
But then they don't ask the question around what is spam?

1073
01:20:58,780 --> 01:20:59,900
Like if that was actually true,

1074
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:01,920
we were a see with merch and stuff where,

1075
01:21:01,980 --> 01:21:04,300
oh, their best faith is the opportune

1076
01:21:04,300 --> 01:21:05,780
would put in this little box and like,

1077
01:21:05,860 --> 01:21:07,360
okay, there's a bad actor here,

1078
01:21:07,360 --> 01:21:09,980
but you want to give them an easier place to be a bad actor.

1079
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:13,600
It's like, well, no, you wouldn't say what is spam.

1080
01:21:14,020 --> 01:21:17,680
And like you wouldn't like Peter Todd throwing that out, you know,

1081
01:21:17,740 --> 01:21:20,300
to debates with Jimmy Song and stuff.

1082
01:21:20,440 --> 01:21:23,040
Like that's the common narrative where they don't even really think it is.

1083
01:21:23,180 --> 01:21:28,920
Okay, then there's a push of like, well, it's not my role to deal with that type stuff.

1084
01:21:29,000 --> 01:21:29,880
And it's like, no, it is.

1085
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:34,560
Like if the network, any network is getting DDoSed by spam,

1086
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:40,400
And you should have an incentive to improve that quality or stop it and filter it out.

1087
01:21:40,660 --> 01:21:44,500
And by whatever means necessary, the trade-offs make sense.

1088
01:21:45,200 --> 01:21:51,540
And I don't think there needs to be a trade-off per se for allowing non-monetary data on a monetary network.

1089
01:21:51,940 --> 01:21:53,040
No, go away.

1090
01:21:53,040 --> 01:22:05,860
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I had the pleasure of standing side by side with Jimmy and debating Peter Todd on the Demirage and Taylor Missions crap in Prague.

1091
01:22:05,860 --> 01:22:10,180
And I think his ideas are just so anti-Bitcoin ethos.

1092
01:22:10,320 --> 01:22:15,000
It's just baffling to me that this guy has been here for that long time.

1093
01:22:15,300 --> 01:22:28,120
Because as you said about mining before, there are plenty of incentives to mine that aren't dependent on a block reward or even a block subsidy or anything like that.

1094
01:22:28,120 --> 01:22:39,660
I mean, right now I'm mining while heating my home, but heating my home is the primary use case for that thing that 21 Energy gave me.

1095
01:22:39,980 --> 01:22:48,860
Beautiful thing, by the way. Thank you very much, 21 Energy, for giving me the often too home warming thing.

1096
01:22:49,580 --> 01:22:55,320
But my primary use case is just not being shit cold in here because I live in the Mediterranean.

1097
01:22:55,320 --> 01:22:56,920
and houses aren't insulated.

1098
01:22:57,200 --> 01:22:58,500
Like it's super cold.

1099
01:22:59,440 --> 01:23:00,940
So it's great for that.

1100
01:23:01,320 --> 01:23:02,960
And the Bitcoin mining part of it

1101
01:23:02,960 --> 01:23:05,500
is a bonus side effect.

1102
01:23:05,820 --> 01:23:06,360
And the thing is,

1103
01:23:06,660 --> 01:23:07,640
the Bitcoin network is,

1104
01:23:07,840 --> 01:23:09,000
the security in it

1105
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:11,280
is like orders of magnitude too big.

1106
01:23:11,440 --> 01:23:12,720
And the difficulty adjustment

1107
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:14,060
works both ways.

1108
01:23:14,380 --> 01:23:26,200
People think the hash rate can only go up and if it goes down a bit that disastrous But it isn It takes two weeks and then it adjusts and it fine Like this is not a concern Sorry to jump in

1109
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:31,220
but like I know the strategic Bitcoin reserve, like SBR, like whether that ships out or not,

1110
01:23:31,300 --> 01:23:37,380
from my perspective, it's those who even wanted it, like shouldn't. And so on this point, it's

1111
01:23:37,380 --> 01:23:42,460
like, why would you want the separation money in state? It's like, now you want the state to be

1112
01:23:42,460 --> 01:23:47,800
invested in Bitcoin or hold or own Bitcoin where they're unjustifiable, but it's regardless.

1113
01:23:48,500 --> 01:23:57,300
But then it's the corrupting factor of, well, okay, if you're using taxpayer funds or an

1114
01:23:57,300 --> 01:24:02,420
unlimited potential amount of funds to mine Bitcoin, and so they can then have incentives

1115
01:24:02,420 --> 01:24:09,340
to subsidize. And what happens is that it crowds out the real Bitcoin owners and private plebs.

1116
01:24:09,340 --> 01:24:22,140
And so it's like instead of, say, the difficulty, the halving happens, or instead of those certain types of miners going offline and hash rate enabling more for those who are more efficient, they can just keep mining.

1117
01:24:22,360 --> 01:24:28,100
And so the state is getting rewards that they shouldn't, although mining companies would get who are private owners.

1118
01:24:28,240 --> 01:24:31,420
And then instead of that, it's a centralizing factor.

1119
01:24:32,200 --> 01:24:34,380
Yeah, what happens is Mara, basically.

1120
01:24:35,520 --> 01:24:36,120
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1121
01:24:36,120 --> 01:24:36,540
Mara-thon mining.

1122
01:24:36,540 --> 01:24:40,260
Like it's a flaw in the fiat system that allows that to be.

1123
01:24:40,620 --> 01:24:45,960
If Bitcoin miners were Bitcoiners, they would value the Satoshi more than the dollar and they wouldn't.

1124
01:24:46,360 --> 01:24:56,340
But the flaw in the fiat system is that they can get these artificially low interest rates because of fucking money manipulation, which is the problem we're trying to solve.

1125
01:24:56,940 --> 01:24:58,520
Like, so it's so ironic.

1126
01:24:59,260 --> 01:25:00,100
Yeah, 100%.

1127
01:25:00,100 --> 01:25:06,680
And it's like, I don't think a lot of Bitcoiners kind of understand that or those who are supporting

1128
01:25:06,680 --> 01:25:08,260
SBR like clearly don't.

1129
01:25:08,460 --> 01:25:12,280
Like in terms of there's a one step of, okay, allowing the state to hold on Bitcoin.

1130
01:25:12,980 --> 01:25:17,300
And then the next step is nation state mining.

1131
01:25:18,060 --> 01:25:24,880
And I just against that in the same vein that, okay, to what extent that they're still mining

1132
01:25:24,880 --> 01:25:28,980
and those rewards are going to the state when they should be going to others.

1133
01:25:28,980 --> 01:25:29,960
And yeah, absolutely right.

1134
01:25:29,960 --> 01:25:31,660
like business cycles, right?

1135
01:25:31,780 --> 01:25:36,380
We have the central banks can create business cycles.

1136
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:37,840
So like artificial interest rates,

1137
01:25:38,040 --> 01:25:40,480
spurs, consumption or malinvestment.

1138
01:25:40,920 --> 01:25:43,960
And there's a settlement of maybe that those funds go,

1139
01:25:44,100 --> 01:25:45,260
they don't go everywhere evenly.

1140
01:25:45,460 --> 01:25:46,580
So they can't tell you the effect,

1141
01:25:46,660 --> 01:25:49,200
but maybe that goes to Bitcoin mining.

1142
01:25:49,620 --> 01:25:52,720
And so like a bubble or not or whatever it is,

1143
01:25:53,140 --> 01:25:56,440
but there's an absolutely a potential impact

1144
01:25:56,440 --> 01:25:59,320
on Bitcoin inadvertently through still the fiat system.

1145
01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:03,800
so it's like something that i think gets overlooked um but the last thing i want to do is the state to

1146
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:09,400
take a foot in the door in that direction it's like for example um yeah like ross

1147
01:26:09,400 --> 01:26:13,800
uber getting getting like pardoned or whatnot it's like well he should all get all his money

1148
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:18,360
his bitcoin back like that's the only justifiable piece not folks talking about him getting a

1149
01:26:18,360 --> 01:26:22,760
strategic using the state has that and use a strategic bitcoin reserve it's like well no

1150
01:26:22,760 --> 01:26:27,480
you've stolen he's essentially stolen his stuff and the drug law whatever it is

1151
01:26:27,480 --> 01:26:37,940
No, and the fact that most of the Bitcoins were mined the first four years, like the halving cycle, is beautiful.

1152
01:26:37,940 --> 01:26:42,180
Because that's what prevents the state from now capturing this thing.

1153
01:26:42,180 --> 01:26:56,780
If the rewards were as big, it was 50 new Bitcoins every 10 minutes forever, like the Peter Todd thing, the tail emissions, that would enable the state to print money to take over the network in the long run.

1154
01:26:56,780 --> 01:27:09,000
Like they probably can print money to take over all mining now, but they can't stop Bitcoin at this point because the fact that most of the coins have already been mined and it's a beautiful thing.

1155
01:27:09,600 --> 01:27:19,660
So no, it's and this whole notion of pandering to politicians, I find it revolting on every single like Bitcoin is for enemies.

1156
01:27:19,660 --> 01:27:22,660
Yes, but that doesn't mean I like my enemies.

1157
01:27:22,840 --> 01:27:25,480
I don't want my enemies to have Bitcoin.

1158
01:27:25,480 --> 01:27:27,180
I don't want them to have any money.

1159
01:27:27,840 --> 01:27:29,640
Everyone's missing that from their equation.

1160
01:27:29,760 --> 01:27:31,440
Why would you want the state to have Bitcoin?

1161
01:27:31,560 --> 01:27:32,520
Are you fucking mad?

1162
01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:36,940
Fortunately, not your keys, not your coins applies to states too.

1163
01:27:37,100 --> 01:27:41,200
So it's some guy at Coinbase that actually owns the Bitcoin and not the state.

1164
01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:45,040
And some guy at Coinbase owns all the MicroStrategy's Bitcoins too.

1165
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:47,280
Yep.

1166
01:27:47,940 --> 01:27:50,780
Your keys, your coins, right?

1167
01:27:52,240 --> 01:27:53,800
Again, this is the thing.

1168
01:27:53,800 --> 01:27:59,080
The problem that Bitcoin solves, like so not needing trusted third parties, like financial

1169
01:27:59,080 --> 01:27:59,820
institutions.

1170
01:28:00,040 --> 01:28:02,780
So if you don't have the private keys, you don't have effective control.

1171
01:28:03,020 --> 01:28:05,740
You don't essentially own that Bitcoin.

1172
01:28:05,860 --> 01:28:06,960
So like ETFs and all that.

1173
01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:11,140
And this is a threat of fiduciary media where it's a trusted third party.

1174
01:28:11,300 --> 01:28:15,340
It's essentially that you're reintroducing the problem that Bitcoin solved.

1175
01:28:15,940 --> 01:28:20,060
And the threat that people talk about paper Bitcoin and paper gold, right?

1176
01:28:20,060 --> 01:28:26,760
like essentially fractional banking, how the state had sound money of enough and got corrupted.

1177
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:31,340
And then the threat is like one Bitcoin will be one Bitcoin.

1178
01:28:31,800 --> 01:28:37,540
But if the market starts treating the ETFs and whatever else and others as Bitcoin itself,

1179
01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:42,260
there's a risk there where then yes, there's an impact on all this being equal.

1180
01:28:42,680 --> 01:28:46,060
There's more funds, more Bitcoin out there than there actually is.

1181
01:28:46,060 --> 01:28:50,380
although there isn't, but it's being treated by others as if it is, right?

1182
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:54,520
So, and there's a meme I saw recently where it's kind of like 2028,

1183
01:28:55,180 --> 01:28:58,700
like looking at the screen and it's like, what the hell?

1184
01:28:58,780 --> 01:29:03,120
Where like the current on-chain number of Bitcoin and ETF and exchanges

1185
01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:04,920
is like more than 21 million or whatever.

1186
01:29:05,480 --> 01:29:07,500
And just like, okay, in that point though,

1187
01:29:07,580 --> 01:29:09,420
at least there's an element of a run on the,

1188
01:29:09,780 --> 01:29:11,620
like there used to be a run on the banks, right?

1189
01:29:11,620 --> 01:29:16,360
where, okay, do you actually have my savings in my savings deposit,

1190
01:29:16,620 --> 01:29:17,900
my checking account?

1191
01:29:18,180 --> 01:29:19,080
I'm going to go to the bank.

1192
01:29:19,160 --> 01:29:21,100
I get out my money before anyone else does.

1193
01:29:21,300 --> 01:29:25,220
And so at that point, it's like, okay, well, how much is there?

1194
01:29:25,780 --> 01:29:27,680
Who actually has Bitcoin?

1195
01:29:28,100 --> 01:29:29,160
Who's just got it on paper?

1196
01:29:29,660 --> 01:29:31,720
And we see that already with FTX,

1197
01:29:31,860 --> 01:29:33,640
where that happened several years back, right?

1198
01:29:33,760 --> 01:29:36,060
Would that suppress the price for a bull run?

1199
01:29:36,320 --> 01:29:39,260
Because they had extensive amounts of billions

1200
01:29:39,260 --> 01:29:40,960
that they weren't actually selling,

1201
01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:43,640
I didn't actually have, I weren't buying, but we're representing as.

1202
01:29:43,780 --> 01:29:49,540
So it's like, that's one of the biggest threats to Bitcoin is we've got to have this ethos

1203
01:29:49,540 --> 01:29:53,280
of like, you don't have Bitcoin if you don't have the private keys.

1204
01:29:53,720 --> 01:29:57,440
Like at best you have a money certificate, like it's a money substitute.

1205
01:29:57,680 --> 01:30:01,380
It's like a money certificate, which is one-to-one, which is like you claim it and you get it.

1206
01:30:01,640 --> 01:30:06,200
The worst is fiduciary media where you claim it and it's not backed and you don't actually

1207
01:30:06,200 --> 01:30:08,460
have it, you don't get it, which is, yeah.

1208
01:30:09,460 --> 01:30:10,780
No, I totally agree.

1209
01:30:10,960 --> 01:30:16,000
This is true for all custodial wallets, basically, and especially all custodial lightning wallets.

1210
01:30:16,060 --> 01:30:20,440
It's super easy to do fractional reserve banking on custodial lightning.

1211
01:30:21,280 --> 01:30:26,280
But the beauty is it's still more limited than it was on gold.

1212
01:30:26,280 --> 01:30:32,880
Like on gold, you could do it forever because there was no way for people to verify how much gold there actually was.

1213
01:30:33,440 --> 01:30:36,840
But with Bitcoin, people can and do check that all the time.

1214
01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:41,200
So they can verify that there aren't more than 21 million.

1215
01:30:41,480 --> 01:30:48,700
So paper bitcoins, I think they're going to exist for a long time, or if not forever, but it's way harder.

1216
01:30:48,920 --> 01:30:52,540
You need a bigger fraction than in regular fraction.

1217
01:30:52,700 --> 01:30:53,600
Would you agree to that?

1218
01:30:55,260 --> 01:30:57,040
So last part, you need a bigger fraction.

1219
01:30:58,280 --> 01:31:03,480
Yeah, than you did back in the days of fractional reserve banking on gold.

1220
01:31:03,500 --> 01:31:05,560
To keep it safe per se, so there's no...

1221
01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:07,320
Safe for the bad actor.

1222
01:31:08,040 --> 01:31:12,200
I agree that it's like the digital element where verifying that,

1223
01:31:12,400 --> 01:31:16,240
like there's Peter Schiff getting, I think, on stage a gold brick

1224
01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:18,700
and it's like it's a Chinese tungsten underneath there

1225
01:31:18,700 --> 01:31:20,360
or whatever it is like painted over.

1226
01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:21,360
Like how do you verify?

1227
01:31:21,620 --> 01:31:25,200
And then Bitcoin provides that crypto verification of sorts

1228
01:31:25,200 --> 01:31:28,140
where don't trust verify, there's a reason for that.

1229
01:31:28,560 --> 01:31:30,220
So cryptographically, we can verify.

1230
01:31:30,860 --> 01:31:31,640
And then with Lightning,

1231
01:31:31,640 --> 01:31:35,160
like Lightning is being treated as a perfect money substitute.

1232
01:31:35,560 --> 01:31:40,760
So the market considers Bitcoin, like there's Bitcoin units and then there's lightning units,

1233
01:31:41,240 --> 01:31:43,740
but they're being treated as a perfect money substitute is like the equivalent,

1234
01:31:44,000 --> 01:31:44,640
essentially the equivalent.

1235
01:31:45,280 --> 01:31:52,560
Now, liquid, so LBTC, isn't treated like one-to-one, like as a perfect money substitute

1236
01:31:52,560 --> 01:31:55,380
because there's that reintroduction of trust, right?

1237
01:31:55,380 --> 01:32:01,180
There's a federation and be like, okay, to what extent, but it wouldn't be not as liquid.

1238
01:32:02,380 --> 01:32:04,080
So essentially, it's not being treated as one-to-one.

1239
01:32:04,080 --> 01:32:14,840
And so I think interesting long-term is like if Lightning were to reduce its quality as a money substitute, where it's like essentially one-to-one, it's like a money certificate, essentially.

1240
01:32:14,840 --> 01:32:25,700
But then if there's, I don't know, particularly the technicals, but casual, there's some things where there's potentially within Lightning or more shit coins on Lightning or reducing the quality in that way.

1241
01:32:26,160 --> 01:32:37,940
Or if there was become like fiduciary media of sorts within Lightning for different platforms that things are being represented as you have a money certificate and you don't actually, then yeah, there's a risk.

1242
01:32:37,940 --> 01:32:43,040
Like in the further away that is from the main Bitcoin, like on chain, I think the better,

1243
01:32:43,180 --> 01:32:49,360
but yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's like, I think that's why we need to be so overtly clear

1244
01:32:49,360 --> 01:32:55,140
and what the problem is and what it is, like how money solves and how Bitcoin solves it.

1245
01:32:55,600 --> 01:33:00,180
And if you don't understand, like, you don't feel, it's like this in the white paper, it's

1246
01:33:00,180 --> 01:33:04,060
a call out from Satoshi, it's the clear cut innovation that's enabled.

1247
01:33:04,060 --> 01:33:14,720
If you just paper over that or minimize that, I think for a variety of reasons, then that's a real threat and attack vector and risk.

1248
01:33:14,960 --> 01:33:20,880
And again, coming back to the consensus there, consensus from understanding of it's like Bitcoin is need to be able to maintain that.

1249
01:33:20,980 --> 01:33:25,120
And part of the core is like, yes, as we grow, masses improve.

1250
01:33:25,120 --> 01:33:32,480
And like the cyberpunks, those who are early adopters, more keenly attuned to then those that are down the track.

1251
01:33:32,480 --> 01:33:37,600
the ux is so easy you don't need to know anything you don't need to read you know basic stuff to

1252
01:33:37,600 --> 01:33:43,460
understand like well that's just what it is like i don't need to um you know it's just so common

1253
01:33:43,460 --> 01:33:47,400
and this here's scanner well i don't need to understand monetary stuff or whatever it just

1254
01:33:47,400 --> 01:33:54,160
works as we slowly progress to that point um ideally it's like it's the value problem being

1255
01:33:54,160 --> 01:34:00,280
becoming hard to change is is a positive the challenge is that those that are in have the

1256
01:34:00,280 --> 01:34:05,860
most sway, not holding, not living up to the end of the bargain per se, or through economic

1257
01:34:05,860 --> 01:34:11,040
illiteracy. And whether that's just like devs who've like, who were OGs have, um,

1258
01:34:11,040 --> 01:34:15,920
none of us gone up and like have checked out and on a beach enjoying it, but I've

1259
01:34:15,920 --> 01:34:20,180
during their time, but then I feel a lot of like Nick Szabo, for instance, has gone,

1260
01:34:20,660 --> 01:34:26,680
poked their head up and gone, wait, what? Um, F like is happening current state. Um,

1261
01:34:26,680 --> 01:34:27,540
You're trying to do what?

1262
01:34:28,280 --> 01:34:31,800
And again, you're always forced to come back and try and right the ship.

1263
01:34:32,300 --> 01:34:33,640
It's always up to the plebs.

1264
01:34:33,780 --> 01:34:37,540
So it's like one, they can be seen as the captains of the ship.

1265
01:34:38,500 --> 01:34:41,180
The devs, which I feel like they feel like they are,

1266
01:34:41,680 --> 01:34:43,460
but it's, Mises has this quote where it's like,

1267
01:34:43,560 --> 01:34:46,220
it's no, the consumer is a king, the end user,

1268
01:34:46,340 --> 01:34:47,480
the no-runners are the king,

1269
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:53,360
where essentially it's like we decide what chain essentially is going to be,

1270
01:34:53,360 --> 01:34:54,720
Like what is money?

1271
01:34:55,320 --> 01:34:58,520
What is the considered Bitcoin like long term?

1272
01:34:58,700 --> 01:35:07,640
So it's better that they understand that or stop, I guess, making decisions around like

1273
01:35:07,640 --> 01:35:09,820
that aren't improving Bitcoin's quality as money.

1274
01:35:10,100 --> 01:35:13,460
But yeah, I know they think they are, but I don't.

1275
01:35:14,380 --> 01:35:18,680
So what would you say to those that think this problem solves itself?

1276
01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:21,640
that the spammers will price themselves out

1277
01:35:21,640 --> 01:35:24,300
and that you can only fool people for that long.

1278
01:35:24,480 --> 01:35:27,240
And after that, there will be no more spam.

1279
01:35:27,500 --> 01:35:30,840
I mean, people who say that it's a temporary problem, basically.

1280
01:35:31,620 --> 01:35:34,280
Yeah, I try and get it to like at one point,

1281
01:35:34,440 --> 01:35:37,920
like get them on record, I often say, is like when.

1282
01:35:37,920 --> 01:35:41,660
But it's often they talk about fees,

1283
01:35:41,860 --> 01:35:46,960
like as if high fees mattered and like those times have gone.

1284
01:35:46,960 --> 01:35:48,900
Yeah, as if it's a good thing.

1285
01:35:49,640 --> 01:35:52,020
Yeah, but it's irrelevant.

1286
01:35:52,520 --> 01:35:56,280
I don't care about high fees per se, if it's for monetary use,

1287
01:35:56,360 --> 01:35:57,940
if it's as a result of that.

1288
01:35:58,280 --> 01:36:03,000
And obviously, medium exchange, the lower transactional cost per se,

1289
01:36:03,140 --> 01:36:04,640
the better all else being equal.

1290
01:36:04,940 --> 01:36:06,340
But it's like, why is that?

1291
01:36:06,360 --> 01:36:09,520
Is it because of use, because of on-chain transactions?

1292
01:36:09,940 --> 01:36:13,740
Yes, Lightning exists to help scale and it's being treated

1293
01:36:13,740 --> 01:36:16,140
as a monetary substitute, a perfect money substitute.

1294
01:36:16,140 --> 01:36:17,400
So be it.

1295
01:36:17,580 --> 01:36:21,440
But pricing yourself out, I think you could,

1296
01:36:21,840 --> 01:36:23,200
they're playing a different game.

1297
01:36:23,800 --> 01:36:25,800
And this is a thing that I don't know people get where,

1298
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:28,480
and I've done the polls, it's like, look,

1299
01:36:28,600 --> 01:36:30,960
back in those days when the fees were high,

1300
01:36:31,060 --> 01:36:34,920
it's like asking Bitcoiners, no runners,

1301
01:36:35,000 --> 01:36:36,920
have you held back from making transactions

1302
01:36:36,920 --> 01:36:38,460
that you otherwise would have?

1303
01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:41,760
Because you are potentially paying two to 200 times

1304
01:36:41,760 --> 01:36:43,320
more than you otherwise would.

1305
01:36:43,320 --> 01:36:49,000
uh has that had an impact on you're sending transactions using bitcoin and the answer is

1306
01:36:49,000 --> 01:36:56,840
like 85 yes and it's like well yeah why would i feel you know if i have to compete with junk and

1307
01:36:56,840 --> 01:37:02,280
dick butts and omoto stuff i'm gonna i'm not gonna send that transaction if unless i really need to

1308
01:37:02,280 --> 01:37:07,640
i'm gonna you know consolidate my utxos to down the track when it dies down or whatever attempt to

1309
01:37:07,640 --> 01:37:18,400
and try and get a less fee but the point is you are they are crowding it out and why would you not want to increase the cost or try and mitigate those bad actors

1310
01:37:18,560 --> 01:37:20,500
those ignorant actors or whoever it is

1311
01:37:20,500 --> 01:37:23,620
from using Bitcoin and crowding out real Bitcoiners?

1312
01:37:24,400 --> 01:37:27,540
And it is that analogy of like Bitcoin's a chess club

1313
01:37:27,540 --> 01:37:29,240
because they're monetary only.

1314
01:37:29,240 --> 01:37:33,220
And essentially, you have checkers players in there, right?

1315
01:37:33,220 --> 01:37:38,400
who are trying to spruik checkers in the chess club.

1316
01:37:38,940 --> 01:37:40,800
And it's like some of these spam enablers are like,

1317
01:37:40,840 --> 01:37:42,940
oh, I just let them go, let them chat,

1318
01:37:43,040 --> 01:37:44,380
let them like get on a megaphone,

1319
01:37:44,500 --> 01:37:48,180
have a dick butt party and in the chess club.

1320
01:37:49,000 --> 01:37:50,080
And it's like, well, hang on, no.

1321
01:37:50,080 --> 01:37:52,640
Why, if we're going to check,

1322
01:37:52,740 --> 01:37:53,940
like they're breaking the rules,

1323
01:37:54,420 --> 01:37:56,220
but even if they've found a loophole,

1324
01:37:56,540 --> 01:37:58,980
we're going to close that loophole and kick them out

1325
01:37:58,980 --> 01:38:01,040
because what's going to happen to the quality

1326
01:38:01,040 --> 01:38:02,400
long-term of the chess club

1327
01:38:02,400 --> 01:38:05,220
if you've got checkers players in there,

1328
01:38:05,520 --> 01:38:08,060
ruining, being loud, obnoxious and whatever it is.

1329
01:38:08,420 --> 01:38:11,840
And the answer isn't, well, make it a games club.

1330
01:38:12,380 --> 01:38:14,940
It's like, no, it's a chess club.

1331
01:38:14,940 --> 01:38:21,340
And the theory behind this, so Conrad Graff has another article

1332
01:38:21,340 --> 01:38:24,140
is around block size that he dived into,

1333
01:38:24,300 --> 01:38:25,720
but it talks about consensus.

1334
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:28,960
It's like a public enhanced, public code.

1335
01:38:29,040 --> 01:38:31,800
It's like a public club, but code enhanced governance.

1336
01:38:31,800 --> 01:38:35,980
It's not like law, but it's essentially, it's like a chess club, a public club, anyone can

1337
01:38:35,980 --> 01:38:36,260
join.

1338
01:38:36,740 --> 01:38:39,100
You do need to use your private property to have a say.

1339
01:38:39,240 --> 01:38:42,080
So like running a node, mining and engaging in that way.

1340
01:38:42,320 --> 01:38:45,860
But part of the club, there's the rules or the consensus piece to it.

1341
01:38:46,140 --> 01:38:50,500
And so it's like, all right, well, what are the rules or you want to buy by here?

1342
01:38:50,740 --> 01:38:55,360
And everyone, bad actors included often concede it's money.

1343
01:38:55,820 --> 01:38:59,900
So that's what we need to, we've got a whole rich field of knowledge, which can help inform

1344
01:38:59,900 --> 01:39:04,940
what those rules should be. And then it's elements of like, yes, trying to convince others with

1345
01:39:04,940 --> 01:39:12,760
the BIP10, 110, the cat or whatever it is when we don't necessarily have, it's like the chess

1346
01:39:12,760 --> 01:39:20,020
checkers, the chess club board has gone AWOL a little bit. And so it's like, all right,

1347
01:39:20,020 --> 01:39:25,340
as chess players, we need to, yes, run knots, which is like almost a different client, obviously

1348
01:39:25,340 --> 01:39:32,380
same still part of Bitcoin because that board isn't chess itself. If that chess club goes down

1349
01:39:32,380 --> 01:39:39,560
per se, there's still chess clubs out there. But the thing with Bitcoin, there is only that one

1350
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:45,800
monetary network that's the purpose of money. It's competing those commodities, rivalries to

1351
01:39:45,800 --> 01:39:49,520
commodities, but Bitcoin is, but other commodities competing. Bitcoin competing against all other

1352
01:39:49,520 --> 01:39:56,800
monetary economic goods and it's becoming, I think, the most salable given what it is

1353
01:39:56,800 --> 01:39:58,000
and the benefits of that.

1354
01:39:58,140 --> 01:40:05,580
So often that can be seen as shitting on core and the current piece, but there's no, compared

1355
01:40:05,580 --> 01:40:06,120
to what?

1356
01:40:06,240 --> 01:40:10,320
Still the fact that Bitcoin is there, it's not going into fiat.

1357
01:40:10,880 --> 01:40:11,900
Are you crazy?

1358
01:40:11,900 --> 01:40:18,040
Given what's coming, all the net negatives of gold still compared to.

1359
01:40:18,040 --> 01:40:31,720
So this is a challenge we're faced with where we need to look to right the ship as consumers, as the kings, as the no-runners, loudly state what we support.

1360
01:40:31,860 --> 01:40:33,040
And you do that by action.

1361
01:40:33,940 --> 01:40:36,060
And yeah, it's running knots.

1362
01:40:36,380 --> 01:40:42,100
It's supporting the cat theoretically or practically.

1363
01:40:43,380 --> 01:40:48,020
It's supporting BIP 110 if needed.

1364
01:40:48,040 --> 01:40:51,620
and then mining with ocean or using datum,

1365
01:40:52,060 --> 01:40:54,640
using your own, putting your own blocks

1366
01:40:54,640 --> 01:40:56,100
and just decentralizing mining,

1367
01:40:56,220 --> 01:40:57,960
which is another big threat attack vector.

1368
01:40:58,800 --> 01:40:59,240
Absolutely.

1369
01:40:59,680 --> 01:41:02,440
That's a soundbite right there, I think.

1370
01:41:03,960 --> 01:41:07,040
So yeah, I love the chess analogy

1371
01:41:07,040 --> 01:41:09,440
because I think there are many,

1372
01:41:10,180 --> 01:41:13,240
the game of chess is similar to Bitcoin

1373
01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:14,680
in very many ways.

1374
01:41:14,680 --> 01:41:17,940
Like the latest change to the chess rules

1375
01:41:17,940 --> 01:41:22,200
is en passant, which is like 1,100 years old or something.

1376
01:41:23,540 --> 01:41:27,000
And it's very similar to chess in that sense

1377
01:41:27,000 --> 01:41:30,500
that chess is also just an agreement on a fixed set of rules.

1378
01:41:31,320 --> 01:41:34,680
And the reason we agree on those rules

1379
01:41:34,680 --> 01:41:36,980
is because then we can have this wonderful game

1380
01:41:36,980 --> 01:41:39,620
where we can act together in ways that we like.

1381
01:41:39,800 --> 01:41:41,200
Bitcoin is exactly the same.

1382
01:41:41,200 --> 01:41:44,100
We can act as if we own this money

1383
01:41:44,100 --> 01:41:47,420
when money was never anything but information

1384
01:41:47,420 --> 01:41:48,960
and Bitcoin sort of pointed it out.

1385
01:41:49,520 --> 01:41:52,000
And like you say with the checkers thing,

1386
01:41:52,320 --> 01:41:55,720
if chess.org all of a sudden started adding a policy

1387
01:41:55,720 --> 01:41:59,720
that checkers pieces are now allowed on chess boards,

1388
01:41:59,720 --> 01:42:03,040
what would happen is that they'd lose a certain amount of players

1389
01:42:03,040 --> 01:42:05,600
and players would go somewhere else to play chess.

1390
01:42:05,900 --> 01:42:09,360
That's perfectly analogous with Core and Knotts

1391
01:42:09,360 --> 01:42:11,000
and what's going on in Bitcoin.

1392
01:42:11,340 --> 01:42:15,140
You can do fiddle around to a certain extent,

1393
01:42:15,320 --> 01:42:16,420
but you will find out.

1394
01:42:16,420 --> 01:42:22,440
the more you fuck around, the more you find out. It's basically what it is. So I think chess is

1395
01:42:22,440 --> 01:42:27,660
very analogous to Bitcoin in many ways. And when done properly, and when we all have consensus

1396
01:42:27,660 --> 01:42:32,740
around this fixed set of rules, we get something beautiful. And also the chessboard and the pieces,

1397
01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:39,940
just like the nodes, the software, the miners, the hardware, they're just tools to help us

1398
01:42:39,940 --> 01:42:46,380
intellectualize things. Like it's not really a node and a miner is just a fancy abacus that

1399
01:42:46,380 --> 01:42:51,820
helps us do the calculation. But at the end of the day, it's all in our heads. It's all us

1400
01:42:51,820 --> 01:42:58,680
expressing appreciation to one another through beautiful mathematics that makes it harder to

1401
01:42:58,680 --> 01:43:05,080
cheat the system than to follow the rules, right? So there's so much to that. And like when you have

1402
01:43:05,080 --> 01:43:11,780
that rich philosophical foundation when thinking about these things, I think it's much easier to

1403
01:43:11,780 --> 01:43:18,040
understand what it is and what it isn't it's also to understand that it's not perfect it could never

1404
01:43:18,040 --> 01:43:24,240
be perfect arguably because human beings are flawed it's sort of good enough to last forever

1405
01:43:24,240 --> 01:43:28,940
and that's all it always needed to be because that makes it better than fiat and makes it better than

1406
01:43:28,940 --> 01:43:36,380
gold so yeah and uh yeah i think personally think we'll we'll survive the spam attacks we'll survive

1407
01:43:36,380 --> 01:43:41,960
the whatever attacks will survive them because we'll stay vigilant we'll win some battles and

1408
01:43:41,960 --> 01:43:47,960
lose what some but in the long run we will win because if you don't think that then then we

1409
01:43:47,960 --> 01:43:54,520
definitely won't win like there's this pascal's wager of optimism sort of speak like if you don't

1410
01:43:54,520 --> 01:44:00,740
believe this will work then there's no chance it will like you have to you have to be positive and

1411
01:44:00,740 --> 01:44:06,620
you have to be optimistic and hopeful when looking at it because otherwise what the fuck are you doing

1412
01:44:06,620 --> 01:44:13,320
like and rage quit then that's it and it's like not optimistic um you know give them our understanding

1413
01:44:13,320 --> 01:44:19,280
of like you know economics but like mises talks about like optimistic fatalism being a massive

1414
01:44:19,280 --> 01:44:23,220
threat where it's just like understanding that and this is what everything is good for bitcoin

1415
01:44:23,220 --> 01:44:29,760
type trope um kind of leans into where it's like it's like a kind of a inoculating okay oh there's

1416
01:44:29,760 --> 01:44:34,660
you know, spam's happening, but hey, and often the case is like, well, I'm a spam enabler.

1417
01:44:35,340 --> 01:44:41,300
I've got buddies who are doing it. I'm like kind of posting this trope to like, don't worry about

1418
01:44:41,300 --> 01:44:46,120
it. It's just going to sort itself out. Let a quote unquote in brackets, you know, my point,

1419
01:44:46,240 --> 01:44:52,320
like let us scam in peace or let my friends scam in peace in a way. It's like, no, no, no. Where

1420
01:44:52,320 --> 01:44:58,800
is the viral visceral reaction of Bitcoin is where they used to be like, where it was like,

1421
01:44:58,800 --> 01:45:01,160
And nothing toxic about it in my book.

1422
01:45:01,260 --> 01:45:04,620
It's a passionately principled understanding like, no, I'm a Bitcoiner.

1423
01:45:04,900 --> 01:45:10,820
The reason why I'm a maximist is because I understand the simple fact that, yeah, Bitcoin

1424
01:45:10,820 --> 01:45:14,780
is competing against all other commodities and it's the best given its monetary properties.

1425
01:45:15,400 --> 01:45:20,300
And then as that competition happens, it's going to be, you tend towards one, that one

1426
01:45:20,300 --> 01:45:25,660
thing, which is one commodity, which is money, the most saleable good in society.

1427
01:45:25,660 --> 01:45:31,240
and so if you are going to be putting doing anything to reduce that quality like i'm going

1428
01:45:31,240 --> 01:45:36,080
to arc up about it i've got you know there's there's life savings like there's a sworn article

1429
01:45:36,080 --> 01:45:39,540
back in the day about you're dipping your toe in and then you're you're knee deep and now like

1430
01:45:39,540 --> 01:45:43,800
you're snorkeling in debt like so i think the plebs have that conviction and that's through

1431
01:45:43,800 --> 01:45:49,500
economic literacy and like the bitcoin standard approach where you get that where a lot of the

1432
01:45:49,500 --> 01:45:54,060
the quote-unquote the devs i think it is being behind the scenes them knowing

1433
01:45:54,060 --> 01:46:00,780
say potential fragility that the system has given various inflective maccarello with like the

1434
01:46:00,780 --> 01:46:05,620
inflation bug in like 2018 or whatever like that guy to get picked up by some bcash dev or whatever

1435
01:46:05,620 --> 01:46:10,800
to to indicate like that was a that's a risk there it's like if you're putting your life savings plus

1436
01:46:10,800 --> 01:46:18,380
into that stuff and you see those firsthand what what others are doing it become a it's hard to do

1437
01:46:18,380 --> 01:46:23,640
and i thought for a lot of them like yeah there's public things of peter todd selling his bitcoin and

1438
01:46:23,640 --> 01:46:27,220
like selling it 50% of it or whatever,

1439
01:46:27,320 --> 01:46:28,960
like publicly in like 2012 or whatever.

1440
01:46:28,960 --> 01:46:31,640
And when you understand that,

1441
01:46:31,820 --> 01:46:33,440
it's like lacking that conviction,

1442
01:46:33,560 --> 01:46:34,940
just getting paid and whatnot.

1443
01:46:35,100 --> 01:46:37,280
It's like, well, is that partly why he's,

1444
01:46:37,280 --> 01:46:38,960
he's say bitter and hanging around?

1445
01:46:39,140 --> 01:46:42,560
Or it's the fact that he's, you know,

1446
01:46:42,700 --> 01:46:46,740
taking Solana, posting,

1447
01:46:46,980 --> 01:46:51,180
like getting $5,000 like from a Solana to do a Solana ad.

1448
01:46:51,280 --> 01:46:53,400
It's like zero integrity.

1449
01:46:53,640 --> 01:46:56,840
and like how, you know, he's admitted

1450
01:46:56,840 --> 01:46:57,960
he doesn't have any significant assets.

1451
01:46:58,100 --> 01:46:59,780
So it's like they don't have the skin in the game

1452
01:46:59,780 --> 01:47:00,780
as much as-

1453
01:47:00,780 --> 01:47:03,320
Or he's Satoshi and this is just the perfect alibi.

1454
01:47:05,800 --> 01:47:08,240
Well, I think that Satoshi, I think,

1455
01:47:08,400 --> 01:47:10,240
and this is like, I see Hal Finney as well.

1456
01:47:10,400 --> 01:47:14,700
It's like, it's the clearest distinction I have

1457
01:47:14,700 --> 01:47:17,300
why Hal wasn't Satoshi is,

1458
01:47:17,300 --> 01:47:19,720
so Hal's supporting like fractional reserve banking

1459
01:47:19,720 --> 01:47:21,080
and like talking about George Selvigian

1460
01:47:21,080 --> 01:47:23,920
where Satoshi is like actively calling out

1461
01:47:23,920 --> 01:47:24,800
for actual zero banking

1462
01:47:24,800 --> 01:47:26,940
and the business cycle being created.

1463
01:47:27,460 --> 01:47:29,120
And also the element of fixed money supply,

1464
01:47:29,280 --> 01:47:31,480
like all that is the only reason.

1465
01:47:31,480 --> 01:47:34,880
And you had cryptocurrencies before Bitcoin

1466
01:47:34,880 --> 01:47:35,860
that like didn't work,

1467
01:47:35,960 --> 01:47:37,400
but it's like, what was the difference?

1468
01:47:37,500 --> 01:47:38,780
Like the center of alignment,

1469
01:47:39,200 --> 01:47:41,140
but also the fixed supply

1470
01:47:41,140 --> 01:47:42,740
being a key differentiator there.

1471
01:47:42,740 --> 01:47:45,620
And there's only one economic school of thought

1472
01:47:45,620 --> 01:47:46,860
that gets you there.

1473
01:47:47,140 --> 01:47:48,160
And that's the Austrian school.

1474
01:47:48,600 --> 01:47:49,760
And so like coming back to your,

1475
01:47:49,760 --> 01:47:55,320
the Venn diagram or whatever it is, having someone who's both, that was Satoshi. He had

1476
01:47:55,320 --> 01:48:02,100
the tech skills and he's the engineer, the dev, but also learned the monetary element and why that

1477
01:48:02,100 --> 01:48:05,940
was such important. And it's combining that together gave us the gift that is Bitcoin.

1478
01:48:06,300 --> 01:48:11,100
And so the cause for concern is as that's progressed, there's those who are openly,

1479
01:48:11,100 --> 01:48:16,620
literally got the $5 trillion asset. You've got five people who can push code. And one of them

1480
01:48:16,620 --> 01:48:19,920
is overtly like no idea about what money is.

1481
01:48:20,000 --> 01:48:22,020
I can't talk about Bitcoin from a monetary perspective.

1482
01:48:22,360 --> 01:48:23,260
And it's just wild.

1483
01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:26,840
And it's like, surely given the number of people out there

1484
01:48:26,840 --> 01:48:28,560
that having Bitcoin thrown at them,

1485
01:48:28,660 --> 01:48:32,960
they at least can understand some very basic stuff about it

1486
01:48:32,960 --> 01:48:34,900
from a monetary perspective because it's a requirement

1487
01:48:34,900 --> 01:48:37,400
because it's humanity's best chance at freedom money.

1488
01:48:37,860 --> 01:48:41,100
Like it boggles my mind that anyone can credibly get up there

1489
01:48:41,100 --> 01:48:44,220
and say they're technical when they're operating on something

1490
01:48:44,220 --> 01:48:46,640
that is money and they don't know anything about it.

1491
01:48:47,140 --> 01:48:48,080
Like this is wild.

1492
01:48:48,360 --> 01:48:50,380
But yeah, that's where we're at.

1493
01:48:50,500 --> 01:48:54,820
So like even with that, it's like, yeah, it's still, it's a concern,

1494
01:48:54,920 --> 01:48:59,080
but we've got to leap into action, do the things that you can do individually

1495
01:48:59,080 --> 01:49:01,520
and pipe up where it matters.

1496
01:49:02,240 --> 01:49:06,580
But yeah, it's still better than fiat and gold.

1497
01:49:06,980 --> 01:49:09,320
So yeah, it's like speaking long term.

1498
01:49:09,320 --> 01:49:23,560
So yes, we've got some work to do, but, and it's, it's more of like, it's like, we've got to, I guess it's either us, the plebs getting, doing the technical work, like getting skilled up and that should happen regardless.

1499
01:49:23,560 --> 01:49:27,740
but some way it's also the current dev prop

1500
01:49:27,740 --> 01:49:29,540
need to learn some basic economics

1501
01:49:29,540 --> 01:49:30,860
and if you're reading crypto economics

1502
01:49:30,860 --> 01:49:33,100
or whatever other junk there is

1503
01:49:33,100 --> 01:49:36,300
getting pushed as that isn't an Austrian

1504
01:49:36,300 --> 01:49:37,580
as in Praxological

1505
01:49:37,580 --> 01:49:39,500
then yeah, you're wasting your time

1506
01:49:39,500 --> 01:49:41,240
so yeah, we need to read Knut's book

1507
01:49:41,240 --> 01:49:42,780
and others, simple as that

1508
01:49:42,780 --> 01:49:45,960
Yeah, I'm into that, absolutely

1509
01:49:45,960 --> 01:49:49,380
Yes, okay, we've been going for two hours now

1510
01:49:49,380 --> 01:49:52,320
so maybe it's time to wrap this up

1511
01:49:52,320 --> 01:49:54,360
Is there anywhere where we haven't gone yet?

1512
01:49:54,580 --> 01:49:57,440
Like stuff you wanted to talk about that you feel you left out?

1513
01:49:59,940 --> 01:50:03,860
Not like related to all this stuff, I think kind of covered all.

1514
01:50:04,000 --> 01:50:09,300
I mean, there is like maybe future podcasts talking about there's like a private law society.

1515
01:50:10,500 --> 01:50:12,020
Yeah, I love that.

1516
01:50:12,160 --> 01:50:15,020
The whole dichotomy between lawful and legal.

1517
01:50:15,180 --> 01:50:17,740
We never went there, but yeah, that's a big chapter.

1518
01:50:18,200 --> 01:50:21,220
But it is an interesting element of, so there's actually some guys.

1519
01:50:21,220 --> 01:50:27,340
So you like BISC, like decentralized exchange using Bitcoin as a platform.

1520
01:50:27,940 --> 01:50:34,140
And then there's some gents who've taken, so like there's a two of two escrow.

1521
01:50:34,720 --> 01:50:38,900
So the multi-seek approach that that has, but it's the private law society.

1522
01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:42,920
So these guys out of Brazil have essentially done that for doing that for contracts.

1523
01:50:43,520 --> 01:50:48,780
So it's like trying to, instead of using the state for contracts, it's using and relying

1524
01:50:48,780 --> 01:50:49,460
on force.

1525
01:50:49,460 --> 01:50:56,960
It's essentially, well, we both agree, like as a market using Bitcoin, like putting up collateral that, yeah, we want to use, we agree to this contract.

1526
01:50:56,960 --> 01:51:06,200
They're attaching an agreement that they've like a contract to it and then choosing from arbitrage where they currently exist or a market of that, a marketplace to choose.

1527
01:51:06,240 --> 01:51:12,520
that and then it's like okay then they engage that and then post the transaction completing it's a

1528
01:51:12,520 --> 01:51:17,540
happy medium they go go about their their lives but if there's a dispute you have dispute resolution

1529
01:51:17,540 --> 01:51:23,320
that's baked into the system just similar to biscars like arbitration and mediation if there's

1530
01:51:23,320 --> 01:51:30,080
any trades that don't happen and so it's like literally private law in action not based on

1531
01:51:30,080 --> 01:51:38,040
location or whatnot and so potentially a wild uh yeah literal example of private law um happening

1532
01:51:38,040 --> 01:51:44,360
i think i met these guys or something similar to them back in like this is like four or five years

1533
01:51:44,360 --> 01:51:50,620
ago at the free cities conference yep there was a lot about that yeah it's a pretty cool project i

1534
01:51:50,620 --> 01:51:55,380
mean this is the whole thing people say let us spam in peace because they think spamming has

1535
01:51:55,380 --> 01:52:00,680
something to do with the free market. No, spamming and scams are not a part of the free market.

1536
01:52:00,840 --> 01:52:07,000
They're breach of contract, meaning they're criminal. So people get that completely wrong.

1537
01:52:07,080 --> 01:52:12,040
They think because we're libertarian that we think that somehow it's okay to scam people,

1538
01:52:12,040 --> 01:52:17,040
but it absolutely isn't. And the only thing we're saying is that it's up to the victim to solve the

1539
01:52:17,040 --> 01:52:24,080
problem and take responsibility. And there's a big difference there. But scams are not a part

1540
01:52:24,080 --> 01:52:31,220
of the free market they're a part of crime which the state is too by the way and this is the talk

1541
01:52:31,220 --> 01:52:36,580
about eric vos who's like a a kind of a a constant behind this but it's he i think is this an

1542
01:52:36,580 --> 01:52:43,600
embodiment of this like lapatarian libertine even like david freeman type anarcho-capitalist where

1543
01:52:43,600 --> 01:52:50,260
rothbard talks about it's like um like spammers and scammers like it's it's like they've there's

1544
01:52:50,260 --> 01:52:52,320
They talk about economic demand for something.

1545
01:52:52,520 --> 01:52:54,900
And it's like Rothbard's got a good piece.

1546
01:52:54,940 --> 01:52:59,160
And he's talking about fractional reserve banking, which Eric Voors, I believe, supports

1547
01:52:59,160 --> 01:53:00,000
as well.

1548
01:53:00,120 --> 01:53:01,840
And it's like, oh, is that the quote unquote free market?

1549
01:53:01,920 --> 01:53:03,740
It's like, no, no, no, we don't support a free market to scam.

1550
01:53:03,740 --> 01:53:08,600
And the comment here is like Rothbard's asked about like, what about the argument that 100%

1551
01:53:08,600 --> 01:53:09,800
reserves require government intervention?

1552
01:53:09,980 --> 01:53:13,980
And he's like, well, I regard fractional reserve banking as an intervention in the free market,

1553
01:53:14,040 --> 01:53:16,480
just as crime against person and property as intervention.

1554
01:53:16,480 --> 01:53:18,140
and they create the banking

1555
01:53:18,140 --> 01:53:19,080
and allows them to,

1556
01:53:19,480 --> 01:53:20,420
the crime to be committed.

1557
01:53:20,620 --> 01:53:21,260
But how do we address

1558
01:53:21,260 --> 01:53:22,460
the needs of trade arguments?

1559
01:53:22,560 --> 01:53:23,680
So it's like those that say

1560
01:53:23,680 --> 01:53:25,140
business has a demand for credit.

1561
01:53:25,640 --> 01:53:26,460
You know, what about that?

1562
01:53:26,580 --> 01:53:27,160
Well, it's like, well,

1563
01:53:27,540 --> 01:53:28,280
there are many things

1564
01:53:28,280 --> 01:53:30,480
the market demanded on the market

1565
01:53:30,480 --> 01:53:31,600
that are also crimes,

1566
01:53:31,600 --> 01:53:33,080
like demand for killing redheads

1567
01:53:33,080 --> 01:53:34,000
he talks about.

1568
01:53:34,700 --> 01:53:35,840
And there's certainly demand

1569
01:53:35,840 --> 01:53:36,580
for government loop.

1570
01:53:36,660 --> 01:53:37,320
Like what's so great

1571
01:53:37,320 --> 01:53:38,300
about market demand?

1572
01:53:38,960 --> 01:53:39,800
No, no, no.

1573
01:53:40,280 --> 01:53:40,760
Yeah.

1574
01:53:41,100 --> 01:53:42,140
Demand for credit

1575
01:53:42,140 --> 01:53:43,360
doesn't mean that

1576
01:53:43,360 --> 01:53:44,940
you can just conjure up credit

1577
01:53:44,940 --> 01:53:45,940
and pretend it's money.

1578
01:53:46,480 --> 01:53:47,780
It's super simple.

1579
01:53:48,460 --> 01:53:50,680
And you see some core devs though talk about like,

1580
01:53:50,760 --> 01:53:53,780
oh, there's demand, like economic demand for like NFTs

1581
01:53:53,780 --> 01:53:57,300
and like the ordinals and like inscriptions and like the spam.

1582
01:53:57,540 --> 01:53:58,740
And it's like, so what?

1583
01:53:58,960 --> 01:54:01,720
Like, is it a monetary, you know, is it a monetary network?

1584
01:54:01,800 --> 01:54:02,640
Is it monetary or not?

1585
01:54:03,260 --> 01:54:05,600
There's a lot of demand for heroin too.

1586
01:54:06,600 --> 01:54:07,080
Right.

1587
01:54:07,320 --> 01:54:10,980
And so like with Eggforz, I think though the problem is his,

1588
01:54:11,380 --> 01:54:14,560
that's his ethos or like he thinks and so,

1589
01:54:14,560 --> 01:54:17,980
And often I think it's a rationalization for like, okay, how can I make money?

1590
01:54:18,240 --> 01:54:21,720
I can do these bad things, but it's just a free market.

1591
01:54:21,980 --> 01:54:27,260
Like, are these plebs I'm dunking on, like I'm scamming, like, well, that's their choice.

1592
01:54:27,340 --> 01:54:32,040
They have a choice to, and like as you rug pull them and then you commit fraud essentially,

1593
01:54:32,320 --> 01:54:34,440
it's like, well, no, like we're not.

1594
01:54:34,440 --> 01:54:38,620
And so part of it is a David Friedman style with the free bank is they kind of accepts

1595
01:54:38,620 --> 01:54:44,320
a David Friedman kind of anarchism where there's no law, only people engaging in exchange and

1596
01:54:44,320 --> 01:54:48,780
buying people out so like if you've got a group who will have one that wants to kill redheads the

1597
01:54:48,780 --> 01:54:53,660
redheads like have to buy them off if they value their hair it's like he thinks it's monstrous and

1598
01:54:53,660 --> 01:54:58,200
that kind of mannequins would indeed yeah because it would indeed be chaos and so like i think just

1599
01:54:58,200 --> 01:55:00,720
you know there's because there's demand for something doesn't mean it should be filled

1600
01:55:00,720 --> 01:55:06,300
and that's i think the detachment where it what's the premise in that like a lot of them like the

1601
01:55:06,300 --> 01:55:13,460
they laparans that i see it or like the spam pro spammers ordinals nft guys eric vores it's like

1602
01:55:13,460 --> 01:55:19,300
oh, this is free market. And it's like, well, no, based on what? And they don't have any idea

1603
01:55:19,300 --> 01:55:24,460
what the free market is based on in terms of like contract and like, but also what type of contract?

1604
01:55:24,740 --> 01:55:28,560
There's contract theory. And then there's like, there's a variety of that. It's not just making

1605
01:55:28,560 --> 01:55:34,860
promises as a contract is. So it's like Rothbard Evers property title transfer contract theory,

1606
01:55:34,860 --> 01:55:39,120
which is the only justifiable one. And you can deep dive into that, but they've got no idea that

1607
01:55:39,120 --> 01:55:43,940
concept exists. And that's what the free market is based on, a contract, legitimate, justifiable

1608
01:55:43,940 --> 01:55:51,320
transactions. And so to them, it's just, yes, A and B, we both agree. And from a fractional reserve

1609
01:55:51,320 --> 01:55:55,780
perspective, like, oh, A and B, I'm a depositor. I'm going to drop that money into the bank.

1610
01:55:56,160 --> 01:56:02,220
They're going to treat it as money and fracturing reserve it. But the thing is, there's the third

1611
01:56:02,220 --> 01:56:08,760
party who that guy, the A and B agree, the bank and the depositor agree, sure. But then they go to

1612
01:56:08,760 --> 01:56:14,980
the third party who believes that's backed by something and C doesn't agree and D and E and F

1613
01:56:14,980 --> 01:56:22,120
don't agree. And the same way, by analogy, the node runners don't agree. So the ordinals scammers

1614
01:56:22,120 --> 01:56:29,420
and the ordinals buyer might agree. Okay. Sure. Although they're trying to bank on screwing over

1615
01:56:29,420 --> 01:56:34,620
the greater fool. And it's like, well, no, C and D and E and F and all, node runners don't agree

1616
01:56:34,620 --> 01:56:37,560
and they're monetary only and their property is being impacted.

1617
01:56:37,880 --> 01:56:39,040
So it's the same thing.

1618
01:56:39,300 --> 01:56:42,620
And that's the challenge of like, yeah, I think so much damage

1619
01:56:42,620 --> 01:56:46,400
is being caused by just that one philosophical misunderstanding.

1620
01:56:46,400 --> 01:56:50,240
I think like if Eric is like behind Citria, an investor,

1621
01:56:50,460 --> 01:56:54,260
and like there's Lop and all these guys, if they're ending the devs,

1622
01:56:54,260 --> 01:56:56,660
like there's a lot of this, again, this economic literacy

1623
01:56:56,660 --> 01:57:00,520
that if it was understood, I think they would realize like

1624
01:57:00,520 --> 01:57:02,660
risking killing the goose, the golden goose.

1625
01:57:03,480 --> 01:57:04,600
Why would you do that?

1626
01:57:04,620 --> 01:57:09,980
and like if they have that asset themselves they're reducing his quality like why would you be

1627
01:57:09,980 --> 01:57:18,140
actively doing that um so see they don't have it and or they don't know um and yeah it's it's like

1628
01:57:18,140 --> 01:57:22,700
there's different ways to go about it but yeah it's that's the current challenge i think so what

1629
01:57:22,700 --> 01:57:27,900
do you think is more common for shit corners ignorance or malice well i think ignorance but

1630
01:57:27,900 --> 01:57:32,480
But then there's some that overtly enjoy the malice of it.

1631
01:57:32,840 --> 01:57:34,400
And they revel in it.

1632
01:57:34,580 --> 01:57:38,080
And yes, there's this highly degenerate element to it.

1633
01:57:38,220 --> 01:57:42,440
If it's just gambling, and that seems like Eric gambling, Adam back gambling,

1634
01:57:42,660 --> 01:57:46,340
in terms of stocks, he's always been a trader, this type of thing.

1635
01:57:46,480 --> 01:57:50,320
It's not good enough to sound money, humanity's best chance of freedom money,

1636
01:57:50,700 --> 01:57:51,820
separation of money and state.

1637
01:57:52,580 --> 01:57:56,620
They're trying to feel what it seems like, and I'm psychologizing here,

1638
01:57:56,620 --> 01:57:59,200
and don't have much weight to it.

1639
01:57:59,220 --> 01:58:02,280
But what I see is an element of that.

1640
01:58:03,280 --> 01:58:07,100
But it's, yeah, I think it's far rarer.

1641
01:58:07,200 --> 01:58:09,040
If they knew the consequences,

1642
01:58:09,540 --> 01:58:12,200
they'd be far less inclined to do it.

1643
01:58:12,800 --> 01:58:16,060
But there can always be those who do know

1644
01:58:16,060 --> 01:58:17,660
and do it anyway.

1645
01:58:18,720 --> 01:58:20,760
But yeah, I guess it depends.

1646
01:58:21,200 --> 01:58:23,760
And I think even if you,

1647
01:58:23,760 --> 01:58:27,020
So let me see how to frame this.

1648
01:58:27,260 --> 01:58:29,460
Because in a sense, it's all ignorance.

1649
01:58:29,700 --> 01:58:43,611
Because people are malevolent or malicious because they don understand what that doing to their souls Like according to Ayn Randian objectivism or whatever I don think you can actually and this is of course opinion

1650
01:58:44,031 --> 01:58:51,131
but I think most people underestimate how much damage being a bad actor does to your soul,

1651
01:58:51,291 --> 01:58:52,371
for lack of a better word.

1652
01:58:52,551 --> 01:58:58,931
Like how much more satisfied you'd be with life if you chose to not scam people.

1653
01:58:59,751 --> 01:59:00,111
Yes.

1654
01:59:00,111 --> 01:59:03,471
your word

1655
01:59:03,471 --> 01:59:04,691
it's the Scarface quote

1656
01:59:04,691 --> 01:59:06,231
sorry for continuing here

1657
01:59:06,231 --> 01:59:07,951
but all I have in this world

1658
01:59:07,951 --> 01:59:10,611
is my word and my balls

1659
01:59:10,611 --> 01:59:11,851
and they don't break for no one

1660
01:59:11,851 --> 01:59:13,751
if everyone lived by that

1661
01:59:13,751 --> 01:59:14,791
we'd all be fine

1662
01:59:14,791 --> 01:59:17,531
because like people put a discount

1663
01:59:17,531 --> 01:59:18,711
on their integrity

1664
01:59:18,711 --> 01:59:21,631
and I think that's largely a product of fiat

1665
01:59:21,631 --> 01:59:23,471
and fiat mindedness

1666
01:59:23,471 --> 01:59:25,691
this high time preference thinking

1667
01:59:25,691 --> 01:59:27,371
if everyone was

1668
01:59:27,371 --> 01:59:29,611
totally low time preference

1669
01:59:29,611 --> 01:59:33,971
incentivized to be low time preference by Bitcoin, if you want, then would get to this,

1670
01:59:34,711 --> 01:59:40,371
that which I can do without I own type of mindset and will be less materialistic, less short term

1671
01:59:40,371 --> 01:59:47,071
thinking, and less malicious, because that's a better life. That's a better way to live. It's

1672
01:59:47,071 --> 01:59:53,831
period. Yeah. And I think there's, what I sometimes see as well is, which I try not to

1673
01:59:53,831 --> 01:59:57,831
trigger, so like there's a, there's a quote where it's like, there's a principle, which is a bar

1674
01:59:57,831 --> 02:00:02,291
against all information, which is proof against all arguments, which kind of fail to keep

1675
02:00:02,291 --> 02:00:03,611
a man in everlasting ignorance.

1676
02:00:03,751 --> 02:00:06,571
And that principle is contempt prior to investigation.

1677
02:00:06,811 --> 02:00:09,371
But like contempt prior to investigation.

1678
02:00:09,371 --> 02:00:13,551
So like those, if like you're, I sometimes see it with the shit corners of scam is like

1679
02:00:13,551 --> 02:00:18,391
the, if there's a lack of intellectual honesty, which like raises a red flag and a lack of

1680
02:00:18,391 --> 02:00:24,131
curiosity, to me, it's like you're, you're almost spitting in the face of progression

1681
02:00:24,131 --> 02:00:25,371
and like civilization.

1682
02:00:25,371 --> 02:00:33,471
like you nothing more i think like insulting or like worthy of contempt is that but what i do see

1683
02:00:33,471 --> 02:00:40,571
is is people that often yeah sometimes revel in in that ignorance um or they've got that contempt

1684
02:00:40,571 --> 02:00:45,551
for whatever reasons maybe it's like lds like luke derangement syndrome or whatever it is there's

1685
02:00:45,551 --> 02:00:50,871
like some some things there for some some devs but if there's that contempt prior investigation or

1686
02:00:50,871 --> 02:00:55,231
it like sometimes like looking greg maxwell or some of these which what can do to explain some

1687
02:00:55,231 --> 02:01:02,131
their reactions to some of these things that are new and the principles are there and actually

1688
02:01:02,131 --> 02:01:08,831
contradict some of their old statements, but they've got contempt for whatever reason on that

1689
02:01:08,831 --> 02:01:14,191
current piece of information. And so it's almost like it's either trying to get around that or

1690
02:01:14,191 --> 02:01:19,771
mitigate that somehow or not trigger it. But yeah, it's that contempt which kind of keeps

1691
02:01:19,771 --> 02:01:25,211
them in a state of ignorance and hopefully like using memes or humor or I don't know,

1692
02:01:25,351 --> 02:01:28,971
is ways to get others to see through that.

1693
02:01:29,351 --> 02:01:33,371
But otherwise, like sometimes it's hard to when someone's paycheck, what's the phrase

1694
02:01:33,371 --> 02:01:35,711
where like they're getting paid to look other ways.

1695
02:01:35,711 --> 02:01:36,491
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1696
02:01:36,531 --> 02:01:38,091
It's hard to convince them other ways.

1697
02:01:38,451 --> 02:01:38,631
Yeah.

1698
02:01:39,071 --> 02:01:40,171
He was a commie, by the way.

1699
02:01:40,471 --> 02:01:45,611
Anyway, so how do we protect ourselves from our own cognitive biases?

1700
02:01:45,611 --> 02:01:59,211
If you don't want to like, because we're all susceptible to falling in into these traps where like Nazi Germany or Stalinist Soviet didn't just happen because people were because they were bad people cheering for these things.

1701
02:01:59,211 --> 02:02:01,051
like human beings are flawed.

1702
02:02:01,291 --> 02:02:03,411
We do have our cognitive biases.

1703
02:02:03,411 --> 02:02:07,731
And I think many of them are like the psychological rationalization

1704
02:02:07,731 --> 02:02:13,411
for why we do things like how do we remain skeptical enough

1705
02:02:13,411 --> 02:02:16,371
and how do we remain intellectually honest is the question, I guess.

1706
02:02:16,731 --> 02:02:16,891
Yeah.

1707
02:02:17,491 --> 02:02:18,791
We've always got to check your premises.

1708
02:02:19,271 --> 02:02:21,511
Like for me, and that's why it's in my vows,

1709
02:02:21,591 --> 02:02:23,651
actually like being intellectually honest and open to reason

1710
02:02:23,651 --> 02:02:26,031
and, you know, passionate about that, curious way.

1711
02:02:26,151 --> 02:02:27,031
You've got to check your premises.

1712
02:02:27,031 --> 02:02:32,151
and again that's like where for me it comes back to that's how progression happens and if you stop

1713
02:02:32,151 --> 02:02:38,971
that then you stop kind of progressing in a sense or enabling that possibility so yeah and it's

1714
02:02:38,971 --> 02:02:43,191
always checking the premises but it's like okay base what area of knowledge is this is this

1715
02:02:43,851 --> 02:02:50,331
a priori is it like what's the methodology i need to engage with is it um you know axiomatic

1716
02:02:50,331 --> 02:02:55,051
and deductive or is it you know is this hypothetical is this empirical is like do i use a scientific

1717
02:02:55,051 --> 02:03:00,691
method? Is it like always open to testing? And so understanding epistemology, like the validity

1718
02:03:00,691 --> 02:03:08,611
of knowledge is vital to, to be able to use the correct lens in the correct time, uh, and place

1719
02:03:08,611 --> 02:03:13,131
for what you're looking at. And then, you know, understanding reality is like interwoven reality,

1720
02:03:13,131 --> 02:03:18,691
right? Where we comes back, like conceptually, we can look at one area at a time, but we can

1721
02:03:18,691 --> 02:03:23,191
understand that they, they're like a different size of the same coin. I mean, you, and so,

1722
02:03:23,191 --> 02:03:26,651
So yeah, there's, I think epistemology is a massive part of that.

1723
02:03:26,871 --> 02:03:26,991
Yeah.

1724
02:03:27,351 --> 02:03:31,471
If you, if you put your, you know, a lot of people get, it feel like they're getting attacked

1725
02:03:31,471 --> 02:03:35,971
like a roles, you're discussing ideas and they associate themselves with those ideas.

1726
02:03:35,971 --> 02:03:38,171
They like a role association of sorts.

1727
02:03:38,211 --> 02:03:40,651
And so you're attacking the idea, you feel like they're attacking, getting attacked.

1728
02:03:40,791 --> 02:03:44,811
I feel if, if you bank it on a principle, which is like being intellectually honest,

1729
02:03:44,811 --> 02:03:50,091
open to reason you, if you're wrong, like it's a far easier to, well, accept that.

1730
02:03:50,091 --> 02:03:51,051
and great.

1731
02:03:51,251 --> 02:03:52,991
Like now I've improved and progressed

1732
02:03:52,991 --> 02:03:54,191
and I don't need to be wrong again.

1733
02:03:55,191 --> 02:03:56,511
And I think there's an element to this

1734
02:03:56,511 --> 02:03:58,611
where some of the come across is

1735
02:03:58,611 --> 02:03:59,851
are there different methods

1736
02:03:59,851 --> 02:04:01,131
for online versus in person?

1737
02:04:01,291 --> 02:04:04,971
I think online where there is no time limit per se,

1738
02:04:05,111 --> 02:04:08,171
you can pause, think, consider, review, come back.

1739
02:04:08,711 --> 02:04:09,571
Versus in person,

1740
02:04:09,711 --> 02:04:10,931
it's like more inclined to be,

1741
02:04:10,991 --> 02:04:13,491
you know, thinking about your response

1742
02:04:13,491 --> 02:04:15,271
or it's a debate or, you know,

1743
02:04:15,631 --> 02:04:16,371
you know, whatever it is,

1744
02:04:16,411 --> 02:04:17,331
it's like less.

1745
02:04:17,551 --> 02:04:19,271
So I've got more of a higher,

1746
02:04:19,271 --> 02:04:26,831
threshold on online discourse, although I probably shouldn't. Maybe I'm projecting in that regard

1747
02:04:26,831 --> 02:04:34,751
where others don't get reference and then I go down that rabbit hole. So I've got to be kind

1748
02:04:34,751 --> 02:04:42,471
of conscious of that. But to me, there's that element of checking your premises, essentially

1749
02:04:42,471 --> 02:04:48,711
being aware of your own ignorance. There's nothing wrong with being ignorant, but it's knowing it.

1750
02:04:48,711 --> 02:04:54,931
that's the wisdom piece where I know the areas that I'm passionate about and not, but then

1751
02:04:54,931 --> 02:05:00,711
anything like empirical, scientific, natural sciences, whatever it is, areas that I know,

1752
02:05:00,711 --> 02:05:05,951
yeah, I'm not banking on here. And so that's why I tend to have my discussions.

1753
02:05:07,111 --> 02:05:12,391
Commentary remains on things that are a priori or things that are axiomatic and ducted,

1754
02:05:12,431 --> 02:05:17,931
where it is a definitive answer of sorts. And it's not like, yeah, I subjectively like this

1755
02:05:17,931 --> 02:05:19,671
and you like that and cool, great.

1756
02:05:20,031 --> 02:05:22,251
It's like, no, one of us is wrong and one of us is right.

1757
02:05:22,371 --> 02:05:24,511
Like one plus one is two or one plus one is three.

1758
02:05:25,211 --> 02:05:28,091
One of us is right and either it's me or it's you.

1759
02:05:28,231 --> 02:05:29,551
If it's me, I want it to know.

1760
02:05:29,631 --> 02:05:30,111
I want to know.

1761
02:05:30,411 --> 02:05:34,651
If it's you, well, you need to be open to that and accept that.

1762
02:05:34,651 --> 02:05:39,671
And if you then double down or triple down when you've engaged

1763
02:05:39,671 --> 02:05:43,811
and I've shown the best resources that exist that it shows one plus one is two

1764
02:05:43,811 --> 02:05:47,611
and you keep saying it's three, then like my respect levels decrease

1765
02:05:47,611 --> 02:05:50,471
and you then get treated more as a soundboard

1766
02:05:50,471 --> 02:05:53,791
and someone to be ridiculed than someone to be respected.

1767
02:05:54,371 --> 02:05:55,691
And that's my approach.

1768
02:05:55,811 --> 02:05:58,671
And so partly there's an element of by pushing hard,

1769
02:05:59,811 --> 02:06:02,491
if someone, I want my be pushed hard back.

1770
02:06:03,111 --> 02:06:27,643
And so like if someone was and maybe this is wrong but if I saying one plus one is three and someone knows it two and I being an arsehole about it I want them to critique me have the incentive to push back and say why I wrong so I can adapt and understand and then go great

1771
02:06:28,203 --> 02:06:30,823
But you've got to be available to do that.

1772
02:06:30,823 --> 02:06:37,903
we had an example of this last week which is like the first time i've i think that i've i've

1773
02:06:37,903 --> 02:06:44,563
seen you be wrong online and that is when you said swedish cantons meaning swiss cantons

1774
02:06:44,563 --> 02:06:50,963
yeah yeah so i pointed out i think you mean swiss cantons and you immediately corrected yourself and

1775
02:06:50,963 --> 02:06:56,303
said yes of course it's in switzerland not in sweden so but i think that was actually the first

1776
02:06:56,303 --> 02:07:02,463
time that i've ever seen you be wrong online then again uh there's there's a bunch of other

1777
02:07:02,463 --> 02:07:08,623
incentives online too especially nowadays when you know the whole incentive to be an influencer

1778
02:07:08,623 --> 02:07:15,023
really wasn't there as it wasn't as prevalent 10 years ago as it is now now you can actually just

1779
02:07:15,023 --> 02:07:20,743
blurt out your shit online and make a living i mean i'm an example of it like i have i live

1780
02:07:20,743 --> 02:07:26,423
online now as opposed to in my fiat job and i like it a lot more but i also i'm also very aware that

1781
02:07:26,423 --> 02:07:32,923
that is the algorithms this or that algorithm is skewing my perspective somehow and i need to check

1782
02:07:32,923 --> 02:07:41,123
myself a lot and i and i don't think there's a one-size-fits-all solution um there's often a

1783
02:07:41,123 --> 02:07:44,803
critique like libertarians like you're talking amongst yourselves or like say maybe bitcoin is

1784
02:07:44,803 --> 02:07:50,403
talking amongst yourselves and it's and like i was at a you know like the cult equivalent or

1785
02:07:50,403 --> 02:07:55,603
um your own bubble per se and to me it's like it's a bubble of decency common decency that you

1786
02:07:55,603 --> 02:08:01,723
know to weather the storm because yep 99 but like every other transaction engagement interaction

1787
02:08:01,723 --> 02:08:07,323
throughout the day is outside that bubble like it is it it's it's it's work it's where it's like

1788
02:08:07,323 --> 02:08:12,803
you know the public you know normally land whatever it is so it's like no you're not

1789
02:08:12,803 --> 02:08:18,963
it's like you you've got a there's a safe haven of sorts um that you could kind of rely on and

1790
02:08:18,963 --> 02:08:25,063
critique the the the clown world that it is sometimes the fear mindset like we are the ones

1791
02:08:25,063 --> 02:08:31,503
leaving the cult we're not the cult like the cult is the people that live in unverifiable money they

1792
02:08:31,503 --> 02:08:36,303
have this thing with a little little fucking illuminati pyramid right there and they think

1793
02:08:36,303 --> 02:08:45,363
it's legit yeah so we're the ones that call the cult out and that we're we're the deserters uh

1794
02:08:45,363 --> 02:08:50,783
we're the ones leaving not the ones in a cult so they live in a bubble we don't and i'm gonna die

1795
02:08:50,783 --> 02:08:57,583
on this hill probably yeah um there was a recent poll that oh not recent polls like a cobbin center

1796
02:08:57,583 --> 02:09:01,883
and this is like maybe 2005 or something but it was on the concept of fractional reserve banking

1797
02:09:01,883 --> 02:09:05,523
and was asking the UK, it was a question around prying,

1798
02:09:06,143 --> 02:09:09,163
like fractional reserve bankers claim that depositors,

1799
02:09:09,323 --> 02:09:12,403
like people believe they accept that they're the contract,

1800
02:09:12,503 --> 02:09:14,823
they're giving their money to the bank and it's no longer theirs.

1801
02:09:15,003 --> 02:09:17,723
It's the banks and the banks can do what they want with it.

1802
02:09:18,103 --> 02:09:19,563
Fractional reserve is like, that's the claim.

1803
02:09:19,763 --> 02:09:22,883
So people should be, it's no fraud because people are aware of that.

1804
02:09:23,083 --> 02:09:26,843
And there's like the poll, which was fairly widely done,

1805
02:09:27,043 --> 02:09:30,563
normal folks out there, I think 3,000, 4,000 people or whatever,

1806
02:09:30,563 --> 02:09:35,043
but it was something like 70% believed that the bank actually had,

1807
02:09:35,143 --> 02:09:36,683
like it's their money still.

1808
02:09:36,823 --> 02:09:38,983
They don't believe it, don't understand it's not theirs anymore

1809
02:09:38,983 --> 02:09:42,223
from a legal, current legal positives perspective.

1810
02:09:42,803 --> 02:09:44,723
And it's like, no.

1811
02:09:44,903 --> 02:09:48,003
And Rothbard jokes about it where he's like, you know,

1812
02:09:48,163 --> 02:09:55,543
a whole university like lecture, many talks over like semesters

1813
02:09:55,543 --> 02:09:58,743
from his, you know, quote unquote propaganda on the money's not there

1814
02:09:58,743 --> 02:10:04,003
and still like some folks thinking that the money is still there folks and it's like it's not yeah so

1815
02:10:04,003 --> 02:10:10,923
it's it's yeah um no the the i was reminded of that a couple of years back when i needed to

1816
02:10:10,923 --> 02:10:16,663
withdraw a lot of cash for a certain reason and the bank asks me what i'm going to do with the

1817
02:10:16,663 --> 02:10:21,743
money i should be asking them what they are going to do with my money otherwise it isn't my money

1818
02:10:21,743 --> 02:10:27,623
it's theirs and like why do i need their the custodian's permission to use my shit it's like

1819
02:10:27,623 --> 02:10:29,863
so backwards and so weird.

1820
02:10:30,383 --> 02:10:32,443
So the way I see it now is that the bank is a,

1821
02:10:32,943 --> 02:10:36,103
your bank account is a two out of three multi-sig solution

1822
02:10:36,103 --> 02:10:38,443
between you, the bank, and the government.

1823
02:10:38,703 --> 02:10:41,683
And both the government and the bank have master keys.

1824
02:10:41,803 --> 02:10:43,683
You're the only one that needs the consent of

1825
02:10:43,683 --> 02:10:47,843
at least one of the others to use your money.

1826
02:10:47,983 --> 02:10:49,863
So it's a pretty bad multi-sig setup.

1827
02:10:50,623 --> 02:10:51,803
Yeah, 100%.

1828
02:10:51,803 --> 02:10:54,143
All right, where can people find more?

1829
02:10:54,143 --> 02:11:01,323
You recently posted some excellent slides on explaining some fundamental praxeological insights.

1830
02:11:01,663 --> 02:11:04,943
Conrad Graf's stuff and Mises stuff, great stuff.

1831
02:11:05,243 --> 02:11:07,123
And you made them yourself, I think?

1832
02:11:08,343 --> 02:11:08,903
No.

1833
02:11:09,143 --> 02:11:10,163
Using an AI or something?

1834
02:11:10,403 --> 02:11:10,803
The power of AI.

1835
02:11:11,643 --> 02:11:13,183
Yeah, but that's a tool.

1836
02:11:13,383 --> 02:11:14,383
It's still you, Con.

1837
02:11:14,403 --> 02:11:16,863
So it's not, the AI is not you.

1838
02:11:17,383 --> 02:11:21,903
Vetted by myself with a highly critical eye that essentially, yeah, it's like nothing.

1839
02:11:21,903 --> 02:11:27,963
getting it's like it's very efficient though i gotta say like i was actually quite impressed um

1840
02:11:27,963 --> 02:11:34,283
with what is produced like not much prompting at all but masterful imagery as well so um i mean

1841
02:11:34,283 --> 02:11:39,103
that's just on x just konza handle there's still like lifelong projects in the background like the

1842
02:11:39,103 --> 02:11:44,163
practiceology podcast that have like it's got all the city there but it's just time factor and i'm

1843
02:11:44,163 --> 02:11:48,923
all or nothing with things and so it's in the nothing bucket at the moment but hopefully um

1844
02:11:48,923 --> 02:11:55,003
that ticks over it will at some point to the all phase but until then yeah just just hassling

1845
02:11:55,003 --> 02:12:01,263
folks economically like everyone like economic illiterate you know dev syndrome is online and

1846
02:12:01,263 --> 02:12:07,983
just trying to push keep bitcoin is money only um and improve not reduce its quality is the kind of

1847
02:12:07,983 --> 02:12:15,063
key concern and um all on board for anyone who's who's doing that so your cons are on x and you

1848
02:12:15,063 --> 02:12:19,243
have your website too right well what's yeah there's an old tumblr that has like a whole bunch

1849
02:12:19,243 --> 02:12:26,163
of um stuff so conza.tumblr.com um yeah it's in your profile right yeah yeah it's like that's

1850
02:12:26,163 --> 02:12:30,823
for like the gems so if there's any kind of topic that you know hits maybe not so much bitcoin

1851
02:12:30,823 --> 02:12:36,223
related stuff but like australibertarianism stuff like go to the tag i've basically read everything

1852
02:12:36,223 --> 02:12:41,163
that exists in over the years it's like fine-tuned to it's not like oh this is a nice quote it's like

1853
02:12:41,163 --> 02:12:47,163
no, I've gotten so annoyed. It's like seeing the same argument so many times that I became

1854
02:12:47,163 --> 02:12:51,943
efficient at like, this is the best argument that exists. Like after reading and doing all the

1855
02:12:51,943 --> 02:12:57,043
proof of work around where like reading all the materials, this now strikes at the root

1856
02:12:57,043 --> 02:13:02,903
of that misconception. This was what also convinced me. So like I used to be a status.

1857
02:13:03,163 --> 02:13:07,863
I used to think the exact same as the person I'm engaging with, generally speaking. What convinced

1858
02:13:07,863 --> 02:13:13,443
me otherwise and it was like oh yes this um so i've saved that um with a reference to like trailhead

1859
02:13:13,443 --> 02:13:18,843
of sorts so good good good starting point for anyone any kind of topic to then save the hassle

1860
02:13:18,843 --> 02:13:23,783
of reading all the primary source material but yeah it's a it's trailhead to go do that um but

1861
02:13:23,783 --> 02:13:31,123
yeah interesting with the the ai stuff with it's like use um notebook so like notebook lm where i

1862
02:13:31,123 --> 02:13:35,763
think it's using gemini three or something behind the scenes but basically your own resources you

1863
02:13:35,763 --> 02:13:47,294
can add so like dumping you know all the mezes in um you know 50 resources or like libertarian based stuff for articles you know key monographs And they kind of engage in that only

1864
02:13:47,434 --> 02:13:48,994
It's not like genitive replies elsewhere.

1865
02:13:49,094 --> 02:13:50,214
It only uses those resources.

1866
02:13:50,334 --> 02:13:51,594
You can be very specific with it.

1867
02:13:51,974 --> 02:13:55,054
And so like, ah, somewhere in human action, like this came up.

1868
02:13:55,154 --> 02:14:01,114
So instead of me just up here now, it's, I'm trying to empower that as well.

1869
02:14:01,234 --> 02:14:05,994
So like, I think that's democratizing for one of a terrible name, but wanting to share

1870
02:14:05,994 --> 02:14:11,154
that out so you can make like slides and quips and like it's good learning tool um so i've recently

1871
02:14:11,154 --> 02:14:16,214
been engaged playing with that so to speak and it's um done a lot of heavy lifting you know where

1872
02:14:16,214 --> 02:14:20,874
i'm more used to critiquing stuff it's a lot harder for me generally speaking to find my voice

1873
02:14:20,874 --> 02:14:25,814
and try and produce stuff um you're a lot slower going because i'm highly critical of myself so

1874
02:14:25,814 --> 02:14:32,234
perfect perfect enemy of the good or less so maybe that will change some point but um yeah that's

1875
02:14:32,234 --> 02:14:37,394
that's currently where I'm at. There's a YouTube channel as well of like clips. So if cons are on

1876
02:14:37,394 --> 02:14:43,854
YouTube, but clips of things like Mises lectures that have said Bob Murphy's example on security,

1877
02:14:44,334 --> 02:14:49,594
um, of like clipped all the key parts of that given I've like needed that so many times to

1878
02:14:49,594 --> 02:14:56,234
share with people. And that's kind of the emphasis where it's, Hey, I see what your misconception is

1879
02:14:56,234 --> 02:15:01,474
really quite, quite clearly. Like here's the best resource. And if you're intellectually honest and

1880
02:15:01,474 --> 02:15:08,334
curious and open a reason you'll read it or view it and go ah okay but it's not necessarily always

1881
02:15:08,334 --> 02:15:15,694
the case so it is what it is not always no uh yeah the one of the best tips i ever got on on

1882
02:15:15,694 --> 02:15:24,174
the creative process and uh um get moving forward is from trey parker of south park fame there's a

1883
02:15:24,174 --> 02:15:31,194
documentary how they make that uh and he says that he could have spent two more months on the script

1884
02:15:31,194 --> 02:15:35,594
he spends two days on the script and he could have spent two more months and it would have been

1885
02:15:35,594 --> 02:15:43,114
five percent better so he aims for 95 perfection and not 100 and that's such a great unlocker of

1886
02:15:43,114 --> 02:15:48,274
of like just momentum in your creative process if you're if you're a perfectionist you get stuck

1887
02:15:48,274 --> 02:15:53,374
and which means you never get to your next project which would have been even better than the first

1888
02:15:53,374 --> 02:15:59,894
one so like you need to kill your darlings at some point i found that very helpful myself anyway so

1889
02:15:59,894 --> 02:16:07,814
final question what is Conrad Graf up to these days? Great question personal stuff I think like

1890
02:16:07,814 --> 02:16:15,674
in terms of like family and and you know kids and and whatnot so I think he's I'm trying to goad him

1891
02:16:15,674 --> 02:16:21,814
to to kind of coming back on the front lines with us but the way I see it is like you know

1892
02:16:21,814 --> 02:16:27,394
Stefan Kinsella is kind of known with being like proper like hopper at every angle like you know

1893
02:16:27,394 --> 02:16:32,994
sorts in that regard like and he accepts that and i feel like i'm the same with conrad graf stuff but

1894
02:16:32,994 --> 02:16:40,034
yeah it's yeah it was it's part part of the piece about what was what was the initial click for me

1895
02:16:40,034 --> 02:16:45,394
with him in that regard was i saw such a quagmire quagmire quagmire whatever it is of like the

1896
02:16:45,394 --> 02:16:50,914
debates with natural law and natural rights and consequentialism utilitarianism all this stuff

1897
02:16:50,914 --> 02:16:58,674
for like 2000 years of like philosophical baggage and um hopper's a prior of argumentation and or

1898
02:16:58,674 --> 02:17:03,714
argumentation ethics and kind of cuts through that but what conrad's done when i wrote this

1899
02:17:03,714 --> 02:17:10,274
action-based jurisprudence monograph journal article um you know 2011 which phenomenal please

1900
02:17:10,274 --> 02:17:16,754
read is it kind of cleared up the the scene like not so changing much um from like hopper's

1901
02:17:16,754 --> 02:17:22,194
perspective australibertarianism or the hard yakka that rothbard has done and me and hopper but it

1902
02:17:22,194 --> 02:17:29,874
was recategorized not clarifying its position and it's that whole image of um so a tree a trunk of

1903
02:17:29,874 --> 02:17:34,914
you know you've got the the first implications of like action at the bottom of the trunk and then

1904
02:17:34,914 --> 02:17:39,234
i'm sorry the the roots and then it's like the trunk is essentially well there's like two branches

1905
02:17:39,234 --> 02:17:44,114
like me says talked about economics is the best elaborated branch of praxeology and it's kind of

1906
02:17:44,114 --> 02:17:50,114
leftover question of what's the other's branch and the answer is legal theory or property theory

1907
02:17:50,834 --> 02:17:57,794
which it's just it's essentially the angle is rightfully putting them in their place

1908
02:17:57,794 --> 02:18:06,114
and instead of the old trope of you know block talking about like uh uh in um right space like

1909
02:18:06,114 --> 02:18:13,454
Like economics is value-free, is Wett-Fry, is that.

1910
02:18:13,594 --> 02:18:17,754
And then you've got, oh, it's libertarianism, it's ethics, it's ought-based.

1911
02:18:18,294 --> 02:18:23,594
And like, no, like Hopper shatters that with his aprior of argumentation and communication.

1912
02:18:23,594 --> 02:18:27,134
So it's like clearing that up and that framework.

1913
02:18:27,254 --> 02:18:31,794
And then you avoid like 2000 years of philosophical baggage, essentially.

1914
02:18:32,134 --> 02:18:34,074
And so that's the initial click.

1915
02:18:34,074 --> 02:18:35,214
but yeah

1916
02:18:35,214 --> 02:18:38,174
what's he up to these days

1917
02:18:38,174 --> 02:18:39,174
I like to think he's just

1918
02:18:39,174 --> 02:18:42,034
I've got several things he's written

1919
02:18:42,034 --> 02:18:43,714
over the years that haven't been published

1920
02:18:43,714 --> 02:18:44,834
that are phenomenal

1921
02:18:44,834 --> 02:18:47,474
I'm hoping he's a master of

1922
02:18:47,474 --> 02:18:49,654
continuing going back and cleaning things up

1923
02:18:49,654 --> 02:18:51,734
so hopefully there's less

1924
02:18:51,734 --> 02:18:54,054
perfection from him in that regard

1925
02:18:54,054 --> 02:18:55,454
and we see some of the stuff

1926
02:18:55,454 --> 02:18:57,954
Fantastic, the jurisprudence

1927
02:18:57,954 --> 02:18:59,954
essay is excellent, a name that

1928
02:18:59,954 --> 02:19:01,914
pops into my mind when we

1929
02:19:01,914 --> 02:19:03,814
talk about lawful and legal is

1930
02:19:03,814 --> 02:19:11,174
Frank Van Doon, who I read about when writing the Praxeology book, and just this distinction

1931
02:19:11,174 --> 02:19:17,494
between lawful, which is law according to discoverable law, in other words, property

1932
02:19:17,494 --> 02:19:24,214
rights, and legal, which is like made up by man, which is what we live under in this

1933
02:19:25,014 --> 02:19:31,974
legislation, victimless crime bullshit that the state is in states impose on us,

1934
02:19:31,974 --> 02:19:38,074
while there is actually a discoverable way of living in a civilized way.

1935
02:19:38,794 --> 02:19:45,934
And it's not an ought, it's an is, or at least it's as close to an ought not as science can ever get.

1936
02:19:45,934 --> 02:19:49,934
It informs, it informs. It's like, yeah, this is death, this is aggression.

1937
02:19:50,434 --> 02:19:53,034
And then, yeah, okay, ought you do that or not?

1938
02:19:53,374 --> 02:19:55,034
Like, ethics comes into it.

1939
02:19:55,034 --> 02:20:01,114
And like, obviously, yeah, it's, it's, it's essentially it becomes, transcends, transcends

1940
02:20:01,114 --> 02:20:06,174
the is-ought divide by bench, essentially making the case that the NAP, the non-aggression

1941
02:20:06,174 --> 02:20:12,014
principle is the only justifiable norm, essentially, through his arguments, which is, which is,

1942
02:20:12,274 --> 02:20:12,894
yeah, my line.

1943
02:20:13,634 --> 02:20:17,834
The only universal and timeless one, the right to be left alone.

1944
02:20:18,214 --> 02:20:18,314
Yeah.

1945
02:20:18,434 --> 02:20:21,654
So with that, thank you very much for coming on the show.

1946
02:20:21,994 --> 02:20:24,934
This is one of the longest episodes I've done in a while.

1947
02:20:25,034 --> 02:20:26,694
I hope people appreciate it.

1948
02:20:27,014 --> 02:20:27,834
Go follow CONSA.

1949
02:20:28,034 --> 02:20:30,754
Go read up on all the Austrian economics literature

1950
02:20:30,754 --> 02:20:33,074
you can find, you can find, except the bad one.

1951
02:20:34,994 --> 02:20:39,334
And then, yeah, go like, subscribe, comment,

1952
02:20:39,534 --> 02:20:40,954
and brush your teeth and all of that.

1953
02:20:41,174 --> 02:20:42,294
And see you next time.

1954
02:20:42,434 --> 02:20:45,294
I mean, you're welcome back on whenever you want.

1955
02:20:45,294 --> 02:20:47,794
We'll keep the conversation going

1956
02:20:47,794 --> 02:20:50,034
and I hope people get something out of this.

1957
02:20:51,354 --> 02:20:52,194
Thanks for having me.

1958
02:20:52,754 --> 02:20:53,174
Bye-bye.

1959
02:20:53,174 --> 02:20:57,054
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.