The Case for Monetary Maximalism with Conza - FFS #104

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it's often like those from the Austrian school that haven't done the work to

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understand what Bitcoin actually is.

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And that's often thing as well, like, from an economic literacy

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perspective, that's definitely an issue.

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Even if you have complete understanding economics um, you don't understand,

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go, do you have to do the level of work to understand Bitcoin, then

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you also won't get across the line

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I point out the inflation bug constantly is because it draws them back to the

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point that, well, oh, they talk about, oh, there was consensus to change,

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like that, that was an actual bug.

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Like, if you don't have a frame of reference, Bitcoin has no purpose.

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Bitcoin can be a file storage system.

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Bitcoin is whatever it is, like the system is what it says it is.

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It's like, well, then how do you know what a bug is?

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And like, oh, there was consensus at that time too, that it was a bug.

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It's like, yeah, based on what?

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And I've never got an answer.

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it's like a Nirvana fallacy of instead of understanding that like

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you can't ever get rid of spam, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be

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taking steps like to mitigate it

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Conza welcome to the Freedom Footprint Show.

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Thanks for joining us.

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Thank you for having me guys.

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Yeah, welcome, Conza.

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One of my favorite, stupidity debunkers on, uh, uh, on Twitter.

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you are, uh, a great thinker in the Austrian school of economics, I would say,

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and like a really good teacher to normies who don't know what they're talking about.

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And also like, you like to point out that these thoughts, the, in the Mississian

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tradition are not like the normies.

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Opinions, and they're not optional.

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They are a very rigid, uh, branch of science.

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But first of all, please introduce yourselves, yourselves, yourself to our

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listeners, uh, who don't know who you are.

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yeah, so, so Conza yeah, real life nickname, and you find that on most

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socials, YouTube and obviously Twitter.

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and, I guess background kind of a son or a product of the Rompel Revolution.

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that was kind of the entry point, to Austrian economics um, yeah, understanding

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Mises and praxeology and all that world.

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probably there's a co founder of the Mises Seminar Australia, so brought

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out, uh, Hans Hermann Hopper um, Walter Block, Geoffrey Tucker back in 2011.

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To Australia in 12 and 2013, so it was a while back but it was kind of a, you

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know, speaking to the remnant, bringing, bringing um, those people who the

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same ideas, uh, down under or collect, coalescing the locally and then also

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bringing international, the big names, big thinkers, uh, Thanks for the intro.

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I'd probably say I'm a, a, a great secondhand dealer in ideas where, If I

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can, I've often found instead of writing myself and being, you know, producing

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content myself, it's often, having digested it, I kind of, my personality

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is a bit more towards collecting or like the condensing the best gems or

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the things that convinced me over time, especially like engaging online, seeing

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the same areas over and over, uh, where I kind of like Get sick of that and be

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trying to become more efficient at, uh, at that, uh, in terms of like storing

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really good critiques or, you know, about particular ideas or references

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and is kind of responding and planning trailheads for others, to follow because

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I used to think that, uh, the same thing that they do and I realized I was wrong.

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Kind of key thing for me in terms of value is being intellectually honest.

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And I think if you, if you're not that, you can't grow.

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You're not a human in the sense of being able to improve.

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And, uh, uh, there's a strategic element to that as well of instead of perhaps

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sometimes it's convincing others as Bitcoin is, it's not so much maybe the

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Understanding someone has a problem and what, like, they need to know what the

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problem is before they can accept the solution, but often presenting yourself

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as one and, uh, one kind of improved unit.

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There's Leonard E.

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Reid kind of talks about it and a few others where, you know, being

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successful you know, understanding, and to be do that, I think you

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need to understand reality.

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Well, so you, the decisions you make, the means you use to obtain certain ends,

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whether they are possible or not and what is the correct approach and yeah,

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you can kind of dismiss those that are impossible or aren't going to achieve your

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results, and so you can be more efficient and effective and That's consequently

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how you are as an individual, uh, can bring more people to your way of ideas.

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And there's a Leonard E.

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Reid, there's a, an awesome little clip where he's in a dark room in a lecture

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theater and it's got a light and you really kind of small, uh, And it's not so

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much what stage that light is at, but it's that growth, that improving as a unit.

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And then it turns the light up and then it's kind of the brightness and the

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attraction of others to you as an idea.

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And his kind of metric is how effective are you as a communicator and who's kind

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of coming to you for your, to verify, to critique, to help communicate and

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educate is a kind of a barometer of how.

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Successful you are.

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So, tying it back, definitely secondhand dealer and ideas easier, able to

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find things pretty efficiently.

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So I don't feel I need to say it myself, recreate the wheel, but

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like, uh, but often there's a gaps and I think a lot of people.

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You know, fill that with certain things like Safe and Yourself and others.

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So, yeah, anyway, that's kind of my drawcard or my, bit of my background, uh,

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uh, just a humble player who love these ideas and, and the, the lens it gives

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us to how better understand reality, uh, and, and to me, you need to be able to

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do that to be effective in this world.

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Yeah.

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I call it truth goggles.

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That's, that's what, uh, this lens provides you with the lens in the

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truth, the lenses in the truth goggles.

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curator be a good description of you, like, are you a content curator?

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probably not.

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I mean, I do dabble when I see gaps and things, but often it's like, say,

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for instance, like my YouTube channel, there's like hour long lectures of,

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on Mises Rothbard and then gems I see, and it's kind of condensing that.

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So I feel like saying Mises Rothbard, Hopper, you know.

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The originators, Konrad Graf, I'll put it there as well, and then I am standing

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on the shoulder of giants, really, and then kind of condensing, you know, man,

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economy, and state, economic science, the Austrian method, down to like

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mere paragraphs where it's debating, engaging, It's not about the quote.

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It's kind of the excerpt or context that can a snapshot of that and the

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best refutation of someone, someone's other point and kind of getting

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pretty good striking at the root of their misconception, even if they

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don't really understand themselves.

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and so, Kaleida maybe but I do, there is an intention to um, Synthesize,

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condense, or provide those, that stuff into other mediums as well.

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So like a praxeology podcast is kind of like a backburner,

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long term life goal type thing.

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So, um, we're kind of fleshed all that out, just kind of putting in

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place a few um, a few other things before I kind of kick that off.

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But, uh, so maybe, maybe is the answer I suppose to that.

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Is, is there a book in you somewhere?

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Like, uh, where, where you sort of, quote others mostly,

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but put it in a correct order?

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There is, there is one that have it's been bubbling around for forever and a day.

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But it's, it's more.

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probably don't need to, probably struggle finding my voice to weave it all together.

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I could probably talk about it, I suppose, but it's like, I'm sure someone's going

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to, probably going to do it anyway, but, uh, the strategy for liberty.

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So, for forever and a day, there's a ton of literature around the world.

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It's like 70 years of this, the liberty movement, people who are far smarter,

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far better, far more educated, far more resources, have had cracks it.

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I try and improve the world and from a libertarian perspective and have

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succeeded in some places like Ron Paul and then others like whether the

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strategy strategy has just been woeful.

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And I think there's a lot of people who come to the movement, maybe not from the

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Austrian school perspective, but like, oh, yep, taxation theft or whatever, or

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You know, locally, I see this here down under where there's all this knowledge of,

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of strategy and what's tried and failed and people just get like, read a book

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and they're like, okay, we're now going to get elected and how do we do that?

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And then it's kind of like the, the low tax liberalism kind of,

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utilitarian cost benefit analysis, like policy wonk kind of style

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approach versus a radical principled.

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Like anti state, you know, Ron Paul messages like an abolitionist, if you want

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to make a historical comparison of like the abolitionists are all, you know, it's

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about ending slavery you know, and then there's a William Lloyd Garrison quote in

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abolitionist where it's like, essentially we'll always convey it should be abolished

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overnight, like whether it will or not, you know, we'll always contend it should

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be but then there's like the practical political concerns around like transition

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and whatnot, but someone needs to hold that barrier high, that banner high and,

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you know, often some libertarians, at least locally or whatever, those who maybe

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Cato or you know, there's others in the U.

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S.

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examples.

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I'm sure there's aren't many around the world that don't nail it.

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And then it's funny, you often see, you know, someone say like, you know,

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Millet, who gets like an ANCAP radical, abolitionist approach kind of gets

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elected, uh, President of Argentina.

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And then all these guys locally kind of, you know, you're crazy and like, you

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know, attacking the Puritans and stuff.

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then it's really the Everything that he did essentially was like the Ron

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Paul, Rothbard Caucus, which, and essentially the template that Ron

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Paul used, whether he knows it or not, around like anti state coalition and

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anti war yeah, a whole bunch of stuff.

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So, yeah, it's, uh, forget the tangent I've gone down here, Yeah, that's

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I guess the the approach I take.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Some of these, uh, the people who call themselves classical liberals and stuff,

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and then like trying to, to form political parties to influence this or that law.

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It's sort of like, trying to cure cancer with a band aid, right?

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Yes.

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getting to the root of the problem.

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Yeah.

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No, not at all.

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But you mentioned one of my favorite books there, uh, Economic Science and

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the Austrian Method by Hans Hermann Hoppe, which I urge every listener of

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the Freedom Footprint show to read, and everyone else too for that matter,

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because that, that is sort, sort of Like, it goes so deep into the methodology and

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why the methodology of a priori deductive reasoning and first principles is superior

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to empiricism by definition, and that book really, really opened my mind.

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That and, and Rothbard's The Ethics of Liberty, which is

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another eye opening book.

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But, but I think ESAM or Economic Science and the Austrian Method

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is my favorite because it's so dense and it's so powerful.

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It is I've sometimes I've said, you you almost, I don't

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think you can call yourself an Austrian if you haven't read it.

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And that's, that's a hard line type thing.

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I don't think it's necessarily a great place to start, like, um,

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because so much would just be too dense to, To get fit in anywhere.

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But if you've read a few basics or like even intermediaries, example,

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like Herb Ireland's choice um, uh, so, uh, primer on you know, Austrian

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thinking, his recent book, uh, the Bob Murphy's choice obviously, Economics

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in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt.

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Um, There's David Gordon's.

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I'll get on my bookshelf.

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It's, uh, economic reasoning, lessons in economic reasoning.

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There's a few other kind of good, good intros.

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And then and then, yeah, at some point, just tackling that when you feel like

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you've got a pretty good grasp of it, and then it'll take you to the next level.

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It's, it's, yeah, couldn't write about it, rave about it, uh,

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If you wanted a good introduction, there's a very underrated book

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called Praxeology by Knut Svanholm.

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Have you heard about this one?

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Yeah.

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exactly right.

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Yeah.

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Has Haslett's book is, is, is great as well.

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It's not as, uh, uh, pure as some of the other Austrian thinkers.

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I as Haslet is a bit more like, it's like he's like Hayek in a way,

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uh, in my mind like a, a bit more.

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It's not this purest individualist perspective that, uh,

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It doesn't really touch on the methodology or like epistemology,

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like the, the, that guy's clear cut.

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I felt the value was coming from such a, initially one of my early, like a book's

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reading is even that was not being as like hardcore or pure was still like a

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mind blowing thing, you know, in terms of like a broken window fallacy you know,

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the seen and the unseen, like, even just like that's all you're taking from it.

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All right.

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You see the sound like full unemployment, you know, goals.

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And it's like a textbook of, I guess, like he's writing for the New York,

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like he used to write for the New Yorker or whatever, not New Yorker, New

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York Times or wherever it was, where it was, uh, probably seeing a lot of

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the mainstream just commentary, the errors, like fallacies is over and over.

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And so I think he's like specifically done that really well,

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but yeah, there's, you're right.

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There's probably better in terms of like formal introductions.

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Yeah.

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It's more like, uh, practical examples than, than than rigid theory.

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Mm.

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Yes.

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from my point of view, like the, the, the obvious, obviously the best tool for

226
00:13:35,896 --> 00:13:41,126
freedom that we have in the world today is Bitcoin and for, for several reasons, and,

227
00:13:41,126 --> 00:13:47,977
uh, there's a good case to be made for, Why that is um, so in in your mind, what,

228
00:13:47,977 --> 00:13:51,747
what are the most common misconceptions about economics that people have?

229
00:13:51,747 --> 00:13:57,527
And with Bitcoin in particular, like some people say that, you know, the, the miners

230
00:13:57,537 --> 00:14:04,057
set the price and you hear all sorts of, of, uh, strange, uh, misconceptions.

231
00:14:04,057 --> 00:14:07,737
So do you have any examples that you hear more than others?

232
00:14:08,387 --> 00:14:12,027
There's, there's been like kind of a list and I think it was in,

233
00:14:12,037 --> 00:14:14,767
in, in Luvera's podcast, kind of went through some of them.

234
00:14:14,817 --> 00:14:16,207
Some come and go, right.

235
00:14:16,207 --> 00:14:20,274
In terms of whether how, like, understanding the value of metaphors

236
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and analogies and they're great.

237
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They help kind of like, uh, you know, meme ify or like gets help

238
00:14:27,544 --> 00:14:28,814
someone understand something.

239
00:14:29,084 --> 00:14:30,374
The trouble is when.

240
00:14:30,859 --> 00:14:34,829
Some start getting, you know, taken literally, uh, or like, that's

241
00:14:34,859 --> 00:14:38,129
the scientific approach and this is, this is what it actually is.

242
00:14:38,199 --> 00:14:41,949
Like, uh, and then I start getting, arcing up a little bit.

243
00:14:42,169 --> 00:14:45,649
So whether that's some of those being like, arts, you know, digital

244
00:14:45,649 --> 00:14:49,549
property, there's a list in like the, say Bitcoin is violence.

245
00:14:49,579 --> 00:14:50,879
So Bitcoin is a weapon.

246
00:14:51,219 --> 00:14:56,229
You know, is so I had a massive rant about that, but then now it's kind of,

247
00:14:56,239 --> 00:14:58,509
it's almost, I hardly see it at all.

248
00:14:58,779 --> 00:15:01,219
You know, and then there's going to be nuance about it and you want to

249
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dive into like, well, they're trying to make like a potential second

250
00:15:04,049 --> 00:15:07,439
amendment argument or like a first amendment argument, blah, blah, blah.

251
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Like, to me, the whole frame is ridiculous and not necessarily now

252
00:15:11,929 --> 00:15:15,759
these days anyway, worth, you smacking down because it's almost like it's

253
00:15:15,759 --> 00:15:19,459
kind of been forgotten because I think he's the prime pusher is kind of gone.

254
00:15:19,499 --> 00:15:21,109
So, yeah, there's that.

255
00:15:21,109 --> 00:15:25,999
There's digital energy like Bitcoin is a battery type type stuff where

256
00:15:26,589 --> 00:15:30,499
like it actually stores energy and it, you know, that is actually

257
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being transmitted as opposed to.

258
00:15:33,299 --> 00:15:36,909
You know, store of value or, you know, from a purchasing power perspective.

259
00:15:36,909 --> 00:15:40,969
And it's like, it's taken from this, this idea of concept where

260
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it's not actually stored, but it's, it's an analogy of source.

261
00:15:44,369 --> 00:15:47,279
But then when they, someone starts taking it literally, like using powers per

262
00:15:47,279 --> 00:15:51,589
kilojoule or whatever, or like, there's some pathways that can go wrong with that.

263
00:15:51,589 --> 00:15:54,559
And yeah, that's, that's probably another, another one.

264
00:15:55,269 --> 00:15:58,929
I used that analogy in the first, in Sovereignty to Mathematics, the battery

265
00:15:58,929 --> 00:16:05,009
thing, and I've since learned not to use it anymore because it's too flawed.

266
00:16:05,009 --> 00:16:10,469
I mean, it's, it's not even apt as a, as a metaphor, I think, because it's, it's

267
00:16:10,469 --> 00:16:13,143
more confusing than clearing things up.

268
00:16:13,474 --> 00:16:17,614
Uh, and I do get that everything in Bitcoin is sort of a metaphor because

269
00:16:17,614 --> 00:16:21,934
you're trying to take something completely new and abstract and you're

270
00:16:21,944 --> 00:16:26,684
trying to use language, uh, that people understand to describe it like wallet, for

271
00:16:26,684 --> 00:16:28,744
instance, which is more of a key chain.

272
00:16:29,144 --> 00:16:34,344
And, and, uh, the, even the word blockchain is, it's confusing since it's

273
00:16:34,344 --> 00:16:36,274
been hijacked by all these charlatans.

274
00:16:37,479 --> 00:16:37,869
Yep.

275
00:16:38,489 --> 00:16:40,769
Time chain kind of pivoted to where,

276
00:16:41,229 --> 00:16:46,539
Yeah, which is also flawed, but better, I think, just to differentiate the

277
00:16:46,539 --> 00:16:49,659
real deal from the, the copycats, uh,

278
00:16:50,119 --> 00:16:50,719
that's right.

279
00:16:51,099 --> 00:16:51,939
And it's no longer crypto.

280
00:16:51,939 --> 00:16:54,189
It's, it's, uh, it's Bitcoin, right?

281
00:16:54,249 --> 00:16:57,939
And there's a variety of, uh, yeah, different, different things.

282
00:16:57,939 --> 00:17:01,059
And then so kind of choosing your battles as well, slightly.

283
00:17:01,159 --> 00:17:03,319
Uh, and it's over evolving like language.

284
00:17:03,589 --> 00:17:08,013
So, and partly like being, so, you know, Recently at Bitcoin Alive, speaking

285
00:17:08,013 --> 00:17:12,093
about Bitcoin maximalism in one lesson and the part of the intro there, it's

286
00:17:12,203 --> 00:17:18,453
like, well, the, the, the Marxists coined the, the, uh, capitalists uh,

287
00:17:18,473 --> 00:17:22,563
the, the German historical school coined the Austrian school and, you

288
00:17:22,563 --> 00:17:27,600
know, Vitalak essentially coined the, the, the maximalists and so it's like,

289
00:17:27,630 --> 00:17:29,245
you know, Is there a better label?

290
00:17:29,255 --> 00:17:33,785
Potentially like monetary maxless, maybe, or, but it's for what it is, like, I think

291
00:17:33,785 --> 00:17:37,995
it's kind of, like, say, libertarianism, the word was also like, uh, kind of

292
00:17:38,065 --> 00:17:43,655
captured by us in the sense that we did that to, to, to the opposing side, perhaps

293
00:17:43,705 --> 00:17:49,005
to say it's more so, and Uh, whether it's like just adopting that because it

294
00:17:49,005 --> 00:17:50,875
is, uh, you know, taking pride in that.

295
00:17:50,975 --> 00:17:56,005
But descriptors like now we're monetizing a Bitcoin Maximus where it, as, as

296
00:17:56,005 --> 00:18:00,345
the idea of Bitcoin being, you know, given the laws of economics, like the

297
00:18:00,345 --> 00:18:04,825
commodities competing on the market and then tending towards the most um,

298
00:18:04,825 --> 00:18:09,385
uh, you know, saleable good in society, which become like, which is a commodity.

299
00:18:09,570 --> 00:18:11,100
Commutes to becoming that is money.

300
00:18:11,370 --> 00:18:14,650
And so understanding there's Bitcoin and there's everything else.

301
00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:18,450
It's like, okay, where's your coin, quote unquote, going to be better

302
00:18:18,500 --> 00:18:22,280
than Bitcoin in terms of its network effect and also as a result of its

303
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,610
monetary properties and how sound and, you know, revolution they are.

304
00:18:26,030 --> 00:18:30,310
Okay, then, well, it's, it's going to go to one, uh, turn towards one.

305
00:18:30,310 --> 00:18:33,380
And if it's not going to be yours, then what's the point?

306
00:18:33,704 --> 00:18:37,564
And it's like, even some of the privacy bros, which I'm kind of, I'd

307
00:18:37,564 --> 00:18:43,580
say part of, Monero and stuff where they, it's a, it's a common thread.

308
00:18:43,580 --> 00:18:47,140
And part of this is for the, the talk was whether you're a pre coiner,

309
00:18:47,140 --> 00:18:51,030
no, like no coiner, pre coiner, yeah, shit coiner, spammer, scammer.

310
00:18:51,530 --> 00:18:56,510
The common thread is economic illiteracy, essentially um, and different flavors

311
00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,100
and different, you know, fallacies people kind of fail to understand.

312
00:19:00,420 --> 00:19:01,980
And so the part of the talk was kind of.

313
00:19:02,765 --> 00:19:07,405
Instead of attacking you know, going directly after some of this stuff, it was

314
00:19:07,405 --> 00:19:13,725
more putting the pro case forward, uh, and a real trying to, in one lesson, inoculate

315
00:19:13,725 --> 00:19:19,145
or enlighten anyone who is part of those groups to understand the epistemological

316
00:19:19,155 --> 00:19:24,795
approach, the difference in methodology that the, the, the maxis take, which

317
00:19:25,055 --> 00:19:30,695
is like Austrian economics pipeline Understanding that and yeah, it, uh, I

318
00:19:30,695 --> 00:19:34,175
like to, once that kind of, there's a very short format to condense that even more.

319
00:19:34,415 --> 00:19:37,435
I think I'm, I'm planning on doing like a longer form kind of recording.

320
00:19:37,465 --> 00:19:41,685
So maybe yes, the content creator in that sense, when that comes out.

321
00:19:42,065 --> 00:19:46,795
But yeah, it's, uh, there's definitely different um, issues

322
00:19:46,795 --> 00:19:51,055
you kind of need to nail down with these, uh, you know, non Maxis.

323
00:19:51,684 --> 00:19:55,604
when I wrote my, my second book on Bitcoin, the, um, uh, independence

324
00:19:55,644 --> 00:20:01,014
reimagined I tried to boil down like the futility of trying to replicate

325
00:20:01,054 --> 00:20:02,534
the experiment, uh, of Bitcoin.

326
00:20:03,284 --> 00:20:09,294
because I found it's so hard to express why this is futile and why this is stupid.

327
00:20:09,594 --> 00:20:13,394
But the thing I came up with was something called the one shot principle.

328
00:20:13,734 --> 00:20:19,097
So, so, and, and, and it goes something like, uh, absolute digital

329
00:20:19,097 --> 00:20:20,907
scarcity of whatever term I used.

330
00:20:20,937 --> 00:20:25,637
It's, it's flawed, I know, but, uh, uh, it was a, Discovery rather than

331
00:20:25,637 --> 00:20:30,097
invention, it cannot be discovered again by people aware of this discovery,

332
00:20:30,317 --> 00:20:34,907
because the very thing discovered was resistance to replicability itself.

333
00:20:35,647 --> 00:20:38,657
Oh, it was absolute mathematical scarcity in a sufficiently

334
00:20:38,667 --> 00:20:40,527
decentralized distributed network.

335
00:20:40,817 --> 00:20:43,687
That was the premise, like, but it cannot, the point was that it

336
00:20:43,687 --> 00:20:47,977
cannot be discovered again by people aware of it, since all you've done

337
00:20:47,997 --> 00:20:52,417
is discovered a way for something to not be copyable on the internet.

338
00:20:53,702 --> 00:20:55,192
So, what would be your take on that?

339
00:20:55,305 --> 00:20:55,725
Yeah.

340
00:20:55,885 --> 00:21:01,905
It's It reminds me of like the summary of kind of like, so it's, uh, scarcity, Conor

341
00:21:01,935 --> 00:21:06,115
Graf kind of talks about it, like there's, you know, scarcity has, as a word as well,

342
00:21:06,115 --> 00:21:11,142
like has that the challenge of people like, uh, you know, I've got an idea and

343
00:21:11,212 --> 00:21:14,362
like, oh, that is cause I'm the only one who has it or whatever that's scarce.

344
00:21:14,972 --> 00:21:16,622
And it's like, it's, it's scarcity.

345
00:21:16,622 --> 00:21:18,502
Like, you know, you've been trying digital scarcity.

346
00:21:18,582 --> 00:21:21,752
It's, it's, it's not really that, it's more like rivalrous.

347
00:21:21,812 --> 00:21:24,262
So he's kind of evolved to using the word rivalrous, whether

348
00:21:24,262 --> 00:21:25,932
it's rival, or rivalrous or not.

349
00:21:26,222 --> 00:21:29,002
Like our ideas are obviously not, there's no necessary conflict, whether

350
00:21:29,012 --> 00:21:30,542
like you communicate that to the world.

351
00:21:31,232 --> 00:21:31,982
I can have that idea.

352
00:21:31,982 --> 00:21:35,742
You can have the same idea now that I've, you know, passed it on per se.

353
00:21:35,982 --> 00:21:40,017
There's no uh, conflict, you know, directly with Appen and private

354
00:21:40,017 --> 00:21:45,164
property, uh, you know, in, in the, uh, real world, like physical world, yeah,

355
00:21:45,254 --> 00:21:46,614
then there's potential for conflict.

356
00:21:46,614 --> 00:21:51,794
So, what part of the summary I'd like to give, uh, at the, the kind of live

357
00:21:51,794 --> 00:21:56,029
talk was, uh, giving executive summary, having to start at the end because, You

358
00:21:56,029 --> 00:22:00,479
can kind of go from first principles and like kind of elucidate it all and then

359
00:22:00,629 --> 00:22:04,849
down you go but um, tend to lose people so one of the executive summaries was kind

360
00:22:04,849 --> 00:22:08,609
of just starting at the conclusion and for what bitcoin was and it was more or

361
00:22:08,609 --> 00:22:13,529
less like a rivalrous digital commodity on an open source monetary network.

362
00:22:14,154 --> 00:22:18,214
And that, I think, kind of, essentially another way of reframing, uh, yours,

363
00:22:18,214 --> 00:22:19,734
your, your kind of summary there.

364
00:22:20,085 --> 00:22:20,445
Cool.

365
00:22:20,515 --> 00:22:25,665
Uh, okay, for those of our listeners that have no clue what we're talking

366
00:22:25,665 --> 00:22:30,705
about here, like, I'd like to rewind the tape a bit and like go back to Something

367
00:22:30,725 --> 00:22:34,925
Robert Breedlove told me in a conversation and that was like, Austrian, well,

368
00:22:34,955 --> 00:22:39,855
praxeology is to the subjective what, what mathematics is to the objective,

369
00:22:40,325 --> 00:22:45,820
which is, uh, I love that framing because that's, that's sort of Sets the two

370
00:22:45,850 --> 00:22:51,590
disciplines apart, like the both a priori axiomatic, uh, insights that you get

371
00:22:51,630 --> 00:22:54,694
about, uh, certain aspects of reality.

372
00:22:55,084 --> 00:22:59,364
And, uh, the, the thing to understand for people is that these, these things

373
00:22:59,364 --> 00:23:01,154
are not, you cannot argue with them.

374
00:23:01,154 --> 00:23:04,974
You cannot argue with one plus one equals two, and you cannot argue with,

375
00:23:05,064 --> 00:23:07,324
uh, minimum wage laws are bullshit.

376
00:23:07,354 --> 00:23:11,049
Really, if you have a deep dive into, uh, praxeology long enough.

377
00:23:11,285 --> 00:23:15,295
and I think that the book you mentioned by an author who also,

378
00:23:15,665 --> 00:23:16,965
uh, used to work for the U.

379
00:23:16,965 --> 00:23:17,095
S.

380
00:23:17,095 --> 00:23:22,015
military, uh, I know that you've been debunking those Those theories, uh,

381
00:23:22,345 --> 00:23:28,525
often, because, like, there's a confusion here between physics and, and, uh, human

382
00:23:28,525 --> 00:23:33,145
action, and the, the people think they are first principles thinkers, but then

383
00:23:33,145 --> 00:23:36,975
they introduce physics into, it's also the Bitcoin is a battery analogy, why

384
00:23:36,975 --> 00:23:41,445
it's so fucking bad, because there's, uh, there's this distinction between

385
00:23:42,205 --> 00:23:47,779
People's subjective valuations of stuff and, and the, the empiricist

386
00:23:47,839 --> 00:23:51,849
sciences, such as physics, where you observe nature and you draw conclusions.

387
00:23:52,415 --> 00:23:56,235
could you give your best explanation of the, the difference between, uh,

388
00:23:56,695 --> 00:24:01,945
uh, the realm of Austrian economics and the realm of the natural sciences?

389
00:24:02,035 --> 00:24:04,405
What, what, what is the key differentiator?

390
00:24:05,390 --> 00:24:12,310
the, the term would be um, or methological dualism, uh, but the easiest way to

391
00:24:12,310 --> 00:24:16,510
summarize that is, uh, it's a quote that, a quip that Mises kind of has

392
00:24:16,510 --> 00:24:21,140
where, you know, you can throw, you know, a, what is it, a stick in the

393
00:24:21,140 --> 00:24:23,440
water, in the pond, and it floats.

394
00:24:23,490 --> 00:24:24,810
So you can throw, throw a rock.

395
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:29,570
Into war, into the water and sinks, you chuck someone in there and

396
00:24:29,570 --> 00:24:31,290
they can choose to sink or swim.

397
00:24:31,780 --> 00:24:36,210
Um, So like it's kind of pithily indicates that like there's choice, human

398
00:24:36,210 --> 00:24:38,920
choices involved and with human action.

399
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,420
And yeah, from, from that, there's a difference of like, we're not

400
00:24:42,510 --> 00:24:44,320
like stones and not like atoms.

401
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,960
Um, There's no constant uh, in human relations like in terms

402
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,340
of magnitudes, not so much.

403
00:24:50,420 --> 00:24:50,990
There is a.

404
00:24:51,570 --> 00:24:54,990
Uh, like we do know things that are that are certain.

405
00:24:55,030 --> 00:24:57,770
Um, So like the world is kind of What is it?

406
00:24:58,130 --> 00:25:00,260
there's certainty about uncertainty.

407
00:25:00,580 --> 00:25:02,930
I don't want to butcher this because it's like it's, it's, it's an

408
00:25:02,930 --> 00:25:04,190
economic science fostering method.

409
00:25:04,190 --> 00:25:08,610
Like Hopper now has it and he's also got a monograph with um, particularly

410
00:25:08,610 --> 00:25:13,574
on this and it's, it's It's late, so I'm trying to get the wheels in the brain

411
00:25:13,574 --> 00:25:17,764
going, but it's not, there's, there's not always radical uncertainty, so we

412
00:25:17,764 --> 00:25:21,624
can't know anything about anything, like nihilism type stuff, where you

413
00:25:21,624 --> 00:25:25,394
can't know anything, everything's always uncertain, and the opposite extreme

414
00:25:25,404 --> 00:25:29,214
where you can't know, we don't know everything, there's no absolute certainty.

415
00:25:29,544 --> 00:25:32,654
For everything, like whether the sunrise is not a tomorrow

416
00:25:32,904 --> 00:25:34,264
is like an empirical question.

417
00:25:34,264 --> 00:25:34,984
It might not.

418
00:25:35,244 --> 00:25:40,244
But whether like the, then there's a few other takes that we know from a

419
00:25:40,244 --> 00:25:43,864
human action perspective that actually are, we do know for certain that I

420
00:25:43,864 --> 00:25:49,304
will use means to obtain certain ends, like while I'm alive and then trying to

421
00:25:49,304 --> 00:25:54,104
attempt to refute the, the, the the AP prior of communication and argumentation

422
00:25:54,104 --> 00:25:56,604
or hope is argumentation ethics.

423
00:25:56,784 --> 00:26:00,594
It's like you're essentially using means, you know, the your voice and

424
00:26:00,594 --> 00:26:02,784
whatnot to, to try and argue against it.

425
00:26:02,784 --> 00:26:06,954
And it's like there's a possibility of or not um, you know, profit and loss.

426
00:26:07,184 --> 00:26:11,134
It's, yeah, it kind of goes into, uh, in particular around like, yeah, it's,

427
00:26:11,134 --> 00:26:15,670
it's um, irrefutable or you're, you are the status of like, what's an axiom?

428
00:26:15,670 --> 00:26:16,600
It's like when you.

429
00:26:16,929 --> 00:26:19,699
you prove it to be true whilst you're trying, like,

430
00:26:19,709 --> 00:26:21,909
to um, refute it, essentially.

431
00:26:22,149 --> 00:26:26,259
So, like, yeah, you are acting whilst you're trying to deny that

432
00:26:26,269 --> 00:26:28,382
the human action axiom exists.

433
00:26:28,922 --> 00:26:33,102
Now there is a few, like, rationalism really just says or like the example

434
00:26:33,102 --> 00:26:36,949
you gave a little bit earlier around where it's, you know, irrefutable.

435
00:26:36,949 --> 00:26:40,139
It's like, yeah, you can trace that praxeological reasoning back

436
00:26:40,159 --> 00:26:42,089
to like the human action axiom.

437
00:26:42,089 --> 00:26:45,749
And it's like, if they're in that process of deduction, there's anything that

438
00:26:45,969 --> 00:26:49,679
there is a flawed premise or something like that, then it can be pointed out.

439
00:26:50,049 --> 00:26:52,759
And Macy's kind of has this quote where it's like to the

440
00:26:52,759 --> 00:26:54,799
positivists of empiricists that.

441
00:26:55,154 --> 00:26:58,514
That don't bother trying to do that and like go back and logically, you know,

442
00:26:58,514 --> 00:27:00,574
point out where that, that error may be.

443
00:27:00,934 --> 00:27:03,644
They're essentially like the equivalent of, you know, it's like the 17th

444
00:27:03,674 --> 00:27:07,484
century philosophers who didn't pick up the telescope to, to indicate that

445
00:27:07,484 --> 00:27:09,434
Galileo was right and they were wrong.

446
00:27:09,744 --> 00:27:11,494
So it's the, the kind of equivalent.

447
00:27:12,004 --> 00:27:16,489
But also, and Hopper has a take as well, where like mathematical, like,

448
00:27:17,199 --> 00:27:20,649
uh, so formulas you, you reference like maths and it's a, a priori

449
00:27:21,189 --> 00:27:25,039
where so like not, doesn't require prior, like prior to experience

450
00:27:25,044 --> 00:27:26,719
doesn't need involve experience.

451
00:27:26,719 --> 00:27:31,479
But with that, the re revisiting and like impact, like trying to adjust

452
00:27:31,479 --> 00:27:35,409
that formula if it's wrong, is also is like ap priori like a, a, an approach.

453
00:27:35,739 --> 00:27:41,119
So yeah, it's, uh, yeah, the, the positivist, uh, imperious is the.

454
00:27:42,049 --> 00:27:44,889
Their approach is like it's a methodological monism.

455
00:27:44,909 --> 00:27:49,209
So they only see there's a scientific method and that applies, that's had great

456
00:27:49,229 --> 00:27:50,979
success like in the natural sciences.

457
00:27:50,979 --> 00:27:55,099
We're not against the scientific method in natural sciences, but they

458
00:27:55,099 --> 00:28:00,386
co opt that and they try and apply that methodology to the social sciences or

459
00:28:00,386 --> 00:28:02,599
to human, human action and human nature.

460
00:28:03,144 --> 00:28:08,154
And, uh, that's where the mistake comes about, hence, like, though they do their

461
00:28:08,154 --> 00:28:13,714
modeling and, you know, they're based on BS premises um, that are flawed and,

462
00:28:13,924 --> 00:28:19,374
and in particular how that translates to economics, you have a profession

463
00:28:19,374 --> 00:28:24,359
where ignoring the Fed funding, uh, a lot of, uh, economists but, you

464
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,709
know, try rich models and, and uh, you know, perfect competition, uh, from a

465
00:28:28,709 --> 00:28:33,809
neoclassicals, uh, school and it's just, you know, all generally the premises

466
00:28:33,809 --> 00:28:38,149
are wrong and they're basing it off on flawed, flawed, uh, uh, approaches

467
00:28:38,149 --> 00:28:41,489
and you've got things like the ideas of utils, You know, the interpersonal

468
00:28:41,509 --> 00:28:43,469
comparisons of utility is possible.

469
00:28:43,539 --> 00:28:44,829
Apparently it's not.

470
00:28:44,889 --> 00:28:48,119
It's impossible, but they give you a util and you run the models.

471
00:28:48,119 --> 00:28:51,959
And yeah, you get some kind of outcome, but it's like, oh yeah, just the

472
00:28:51,959 --> 00:28:56,839
minimum wage is um, you know, is, uh, is correct or is helpful in this instance.

473
00:28:56,839 --> 00:29:01,189
And it's like, no, and we can show that a priori, prior to experience.

474
00:29:01,189 --> 00:29:02,299
We don't need to run all these tests.

475
00:29:02,909 --> 00:29:06,169
And that is essentially what Hopper kind of gets to with, you know, the the key

476
00:29:06,169 --> 00:29:09,109
difference between the Austrian School and all other schools of thoughts like

477
00:29:09,109 --> 00:29:14,859
the Keynesians Marxists, uh, and, you know, Chicago, Chicago school guys

478
00:29:14,899 --> 00:29:21,534
is um, that the, The Austrian school, uh, conclusions are given rigorous,

479
00:29:21,534 --> 00:29:26,854
logical uh, kind of verification or, you know, from that process, the axiomatic

480
00:29:26,854 --> 00:29:31,384
deductive method approach as opposed to the scientific method approach.

481
00:29:31,584 --> 00:29:34,759
You can, you don't need to go and te run tests to, to kind of prove it to be true.

482
00:29:35,832 --> 00:29:39,719
No, and evidence is completely futile.

483
00:29:40,059 --> 00:29:43,989
It cannot prove nor deny these axioms.

484
00:29:44,009 --> 00:29:48,399
They are true regardless of any quote unquote evidence given

485
00:29:49,099 --> 00:29:51,029
for one position or the other.

486
00:29:51,269 --> 00:29:55,329
And if I remember economic science and the oxygen method correctly.

487
00:29:55,399 --> 00:30:00,639
Hoppe says that, uh, the, the empiricist view, like the empiricist says that,

488
00:30:00,889 --> 00:30:05,699
nothing, uh, is a hundred percent true in the world, where, where, where we can only

489
00:30:05,719 --> 00:30:08,179
make, like the map is never the territory.

490
00:30:08,179 --> 00:30:12,089
We, we can only make, uh, approximations, uh, of, of the

491
00:30:12,089 --> 00:30:15,769
truth and get closer and closer to something, but never an absolute truth.

492
00:30:16,389 --> 00:30:19,549
And what's so beautiful about that section in the book, but he

493
00:30:19,589 --> 00:30:21,709
points out that that assortment.

494
00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:27,279
Is an absolutist statement, like, uh, that is, like, if you say that there's

495
00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:28,949
no such thing as an absolute truth.

496
00:30:29,404 --> 00:30:34,724
You take that for an absolute truth and therefore it's, it's, it's, uh, you know,

497
00:30:35,284 --> 00:30:38,004
uh, this, the argument destroys itself.

498
00:30:38,104 --> 00:30:43,594
Uh, it's such a beautiful way of like debunking very basic notions.

499
00:30:43,594 --> 00:30:48,194
And like, I remember like falling down this, tumbling down this rabbit hole and

500
00:30:48,194 --> 00:30:50,074
finding out more and more of these truths.

501
00:30:50,074 --> 00:30:51,394
It's like, you realize that.

502
00:30:52,779 --> 00:30:56,819
During the 20th century, there were great scientific breakthroughs and the

503
00:30:56,819 --> 00:31:01,159
ones you hear about are like quantum mechanics and theory of relativity and

504
00:31:01,159 --> 00:31:05,469
stuff like that, stuff in cosmology and stuff with quantum mechanics, but

505
00:31:05,469 --> 00:31:09,679
you never hear about this, like in the middle of the last century, there's like

506
00:31:10,119 --> 00:31:18,379
a whole new branch of science, which is like profound in every conceivable way.

507
00:31:18,419 --> 00:31:21,129
And we can, we can point out.

508
00:31:21,724 --> 00:31:28,374
How sub optimal the way we run things right now are, really are, like, in all

509
00:31:28,374 --> 00:31:33,914
of politics, like, and it's, it's just so fascinating to me that this is so

510
00:31:33,924 --> 00:31:39,814
overlooked and suppressed, even, I don't know how much I buy, like, conspiracy

511
00:31:39,814 --> 00:31:47,829
theories, I try to Not, like, if, I see this in a lot of Bitcoiners that

512
00:31:48,079 --> 00:31:51,079
they, as soon as they realize that the state is lying to them, they cling

513
00:31:51,079 --> 00:31:55,449
on to whatever Alex Jones is saying immediately, and they believe in lizards

514
00:31:55,649 --> 00:32:02,069
and stuff, and I don't, I try not to do that because I think that's just as lazy

515
00:32:02,069 --> 00:32:04,009
as doing whatever the state tells you.

516
00:32:04,339 --> 00:32:08,339
if I want to jump in, I'd say um, like initially I can, I, yeah, went

517
00:32:08,339 --> 00:32:09,729
down those rabbit holes as well.

518
00:32:09,749 --> 00:32:14,509
But, uh, the Austrian school and like, instead of, oh, go watch this

519
00:32:14,559 --> 00:32:18,059
documentary and it's like dealing in the empirical world where it's like,

520
00:32:18,059 --> 00:32:21,529
Hey, try and convince you here's some quote unquote evidence that,

521
00:32:21,619 --> 00:32:23,869
that proves it, you know, to be true.

522
00:32:24,329 --> 00:32:29,284
Whereas almost a futile approach where, compared to um, You're carrying

523
00:32:29,284 --> 00:32:33,154
around like, it's akin, praxeology is akin to applied logic, where it's

524
00:32:33,154 --> 00:32:37,824
value free, it's descriptive, it's is based, it's not ought, it's you

525
00:32:37,824 --> 00:32:40,414
know, value free, it's, what is it?

526
00:32:40,424 --> 00:32:45,954
It's essentially If X and Y remains unchanged, then Z will result.

527
00:32:46,334 --> 00:32:50,354
That's like the formula and then like, okay, what's actually applying or not.

528
00:32:50,674 --> 00:32:54,354
If, uh, and to kind of like matching that up and then like, it helps as a

529
00:32:54,354 --> 00:32:57,724
mental tool for like being descriptive of reality and get real knowledge from,

530
00:32:58,044 --> 00:33:02,404
but yeah, as a, as a, an approach, like, you don't need to go, Oh, these,

531
00:33:02,404 --> 00:33:05,969
these are, Rulers are doing A, B, and C.

532
00:33:06,249 --> 00:33:10,359
It's like, no, the state is an institution of is institutionalized aggression.

533
00:33:10,639 --> 00:33:13,789
Monopolies are bad, uh, and inefficient and effective.

534
00:33:13,819 --> 00:33:15,749
It's unjust they're unjustifiable.

535
00:33:16,029 --> 00:33:18,859
Uh, yeah, taxation's theft, uh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

536
00:33:18,859 --> 00:33:19,999
war is murder, da, da, da.

537
00:33:20,049 --> 00:33:24,342
Like, it they're far more far more, like, rock like, concrete,

538
00:33:24,342 --> 00:33:28,229
rock solid, traced back to the human action axiom, irrefutable.

539
00:33:28,309 --> 00:33:33,172
And so that I found is always far more powerful than, oh yeah, A,

540
00:33:33,192 --> 00:33:34,892
these people are doing these things.

541
00:33:34,892 --> 00:33:38,262
Now, Rothbard, you don't want to discount that stuff as well.

542
00:33:38,262 --> 00:33:43,942
Like, there's value to often trying to pinpoint who are the

543
00:33:43,952 --> 00:33:46,142
bad guys and what are they doing.

544
00:33:46,602 --> 00:33:50,292
But yeah, I agree with, uh, like eschewing the kind of the conspiratorial

545
00:33:50,342 --> 00:33:54,552
stuff, uh, especially if you're trying to convince any, anyone, any normies.

546
00:33:54,552 --> 00:33:55,222
A

547
00:33:55,919 --> 00:34:00,249
it's kind of hard to know whether it's the system itself that creates these bad

548
00:34:00,249 --> 00:34:04,659
incentives and therefore bad people, or if the bad people create the bad system,

549
00:34:04,679 --> 00:34:06,499
like, where do you draw that line?

550
00:34:06,509 --> 00:34:08,179
Like, it's, it's, it's kind of hard.

551
00:34:08,289 --> 00:34:12,339
imagine, or like, you know, probably, you know, ebbs and flows more or

552
00:34:12,339 --> 00:34:16,599
less or, you know, work in unison, like, it is hard, it's hard to draw

553
00:34:16,599 --> 00:34:18,059
where that line is, you're right.

554
00:35:10,769 --> 00:35:11,129
Okay.

555
00:35:11,129 --> 00:35:17,119
So, so like, let's try to bridge this to Bitcoin, uh, Mises regression theorem.

556
00:35:17,149 --> 00:35:21,569
Can you give us your best, uh, like, explanation of Mises regression theorem,

557
00:35:21,853 --> 00:35:22,953
Yes, let's have a crack.

558
00:35:22,963 --> 00:35:27,589
So, Historically, like the, the, I guess the, the classical economists had

559
00:35:27,589 --> 00:35:32,403
issues with, like, trying to determine where the value of money comes from.

560
00:35:32,443 --> 00:35:35,883
And it was conceived as being like a circular kind of argument.

561
00:35:35,883 --> 00:35:40,823
Well, people value money because you can buy things with it or, Whatnot, right?

562
00:35:40,863 --> 00:35:45,513
And then so the idea that Mises came with Mises regression theorem, like

563
00:35:45,513 --> 00:35:49,633
you can trace that back like from one exchange to the other where it would

564
00:35:49,633 --> 00:35:54,783
go back and the element of time was the thing that's important where he picked

565
00:35:54,783 --> 00:35:59,823
up that at a certain point in time, it was before it was a medium of exchange.

566
00:36:00,088 --> 00:36:04,598
Being used to, uh, facilitate trade or barter, like instead of being better

567
00:36:04,598 --> 00:36:08,838
than barter and solving the double coincidence of wants, there was a,

568
00:36:08,868 --> 00:36:13,078
essentially a non monetary use is the kind of classical interpretation.

569
00:36:13,088 --> 00:36:17,388
So, um, historically like gold or whatnot, but whatever the reason it

570
00:36:17,398 --> 00:36:21,658
had a particular Uh, you know, use case and as competing against other

571
00:36:21,658 --> 00:36:25,198
money, uh, commodities, it was, had the best monetary properties

572
00:36:25,198 --> 00:36:26,998
and it kind of rose to the fore.

573
00:36:26,998 --> 00:36:30,408
And then at a certain point got used as a monetary premium.

574
00:36:30,408 --> 00:36:32,328
And so it was being used as a medium of exchange.

575
00:36:32,718 --> 00:36:37,218
Now, so it's like at a point in time, it's like Mises goes back and it's

576
00:36:37,218 --> 00:36:41,508
like, yep, that it, it's no longer a circular argument where people just

577
00:36:41,508 --> 00:36:43,038
value money because it's getting used.

578
00:36:43,398 --> 00:36:44,898
It was used for other purposes.

579
00:36:45,463 --> 00:36:51,023
Now, originally there was a bit of, uh, contention from like, well,

580
00:36:51,053 --> 00:36:52,553
how does that fit with Bitcoin?

581
00:36:52,883 --> 00:36:57,943
And I, that was partly one of the sticking points for, for me early days

582
00:36:57,943 --> 00:37:02,346
where I was not anti, but like, uh, it's, you know, you didn't have that.

583
00:37:02,576 --> 00:37:05,666
I think in the objective use value, or objective exchange value, like

584
00:37:05,666 --> 00:37:07,156
a purpose outside of being money.

585
00:37:07,566 --> 00:37:10,766
But the thing that's a, who convinced me that I was wrong, was Konrad Graf.

586
00:37:11,026 --> 00:37:14,241
And it was pointing out that actually, in, If you're wanting to, if I'm not

587
00:37:14,301 --> 00:37:18,121
doing this justice, look up it's a Bitcoin regression timeline, little clip

588
00:37:18,381 --> 00:37:22,091
um, and he talked about it when I had him out at the MISA seminar, 2013, like

589
00:37:22,101 --> 00:37:26,151
talking about Bitcoin then essentially that it's actually the best illustrated

590
00:37:26,151 --> 00:37:31,899
example, the historical capturing of, you know, Uh, the Mises regression theorem

591
00:37:31,899 --> 00:37:37,239
in real time, where you had a period of like 2009, like from, from early days,

592
00:37:37,269 --> 00:37:42,169
Bitcoin, where there was no monetary price on it per se it was, you know, a

593
00:37:42,169 --> 00:37:46,409
non collectible digital object that, you know, maybe speculative in nature, and it

594
00:37:46,409 --> 00:37:50,404
wasn't being used as a medium of exchange but I think And then it progressed in

595
00:37:51,344 --> 00:37:56,694
2010 and 11 uh, where then it, you know, pizza, pizza guys as a kind of, then

596
00:37:56,774 --> 00:38:01,064
the price kind of views and maybe more speculative, but there was a price that

597
00:38:01,064 --> 00:38:03,454
was kind of attached to it essentially.

598
00:38:03,454 --> 00:38:08,194
And then, then some actual preceding 2011, like medium exchange.

599
00:38:08,439 --> 00:38:10,019
Using it to buy certain things.

600
00:38:10,429 --> 00:38:16,279
Uh, so it kind of goes through that very clear steps and Konrad's

601
00:38:16,299 --> 00:38:21,166
got a, an excellent breakdown of like, uh, the actual people.

602
00:38:21,196 --> 00:38:25,126
So, like, uh, that were around at the time, then who, what their thoughts

603
00:38:25,126 --> 00:38:27,726
were, what were, like, were about it.

604
00:38:27,746 --> 00:38:31,726
And it, yeah, progresses and it's um, yeah, fascinating to, uh,

605
00:38:31,936 --> 00:38:35,546
to, to see and, and, uh, that's essentially what, what convinced me.

606
00:38:35,976 --> 00:38:39,676
Yeah, I was wrong, where it's, uh, it's not actually, Mises regression

607
00:38:39,676 --> 00:38:44,696
theorem doesn't invalidate it, uh, it actually kind of, uh, verifies it,

608
00:38:44,696 --> 00:38:47,656
I mean, it's all about must, like, that's how it must have happened,

609
00:38:47,656 --> 00:38:50,066
so, from Mises, and yeah, I rate it.

610
00:38:50,961 --> 00:38:56,971
Yeah, and I think the regression theorem itself is so misinterpreted, because like,

611
00:38:56,971 --> 00:39:01,801
you use the term objective use value, and of course there's no such thing, right?

612
00:39:02,401 --> 00:39:08,291
It must have had a subjective utility to its first seller or buyer, to

613
00:39:08,401 --> 00:39:10,531
the first guy willing to buy it.

614
00:39:11,521 --> 00:39:11,781
Yeah.

615
00:39:11,781 --> 00:39:15,241
So what that is, it's like purchasing power, another word for purchasing

616
00:39:15,241 --> 00:39:19,311
power, or Mises talks about like, say, an objective use value.

617
00:39:19,351 --> 00:39:25,241
So like, um, like a, uh, uh, what is it like an oven is like, and that's heat

618
00:39:25,341 --> 00:39:30,151
or something like, so it's like a, a non monetary kind of property thing.

619
00:39:30,201 --> 00:39:35,381
Um, But different from intrinsic value, like it's, you know, objective

620
00:39:35,471 --> 00:39:39,631
uh, what's the word, like, uh, yeah, so it's a slightly nuanced thing,

621
00:39:39,631 --> 00:39:42,441
but yeah, I'm, I'm not probably not doing justice for elaborating on,

622
00:39:42,481 --> 00:39:44,881
but um, no, that's a, a good pickup.

623
00:39:45,279 --> 00:39:49,894
Yeah, because like, Objective use values sort of implies the labor

624
00:39:49,894 --> 00:39:52,224
theory of value somewhere, right?

625
00:39:52,604 --> 00:39:57,104
Because it's all subjective and even what constitutes money or what

626
00:39:57,104 --> 00:40:02,034
constitutes any homogenous good is also a subjective, a subjective thing.

627
00:40:02,034 --> 00:40:06,264
So, like, where do you even draw the line for, like, this is money and this is not?

628
00:40:06,444 --> 00:40:12,974
Like, that's also subjective in nature, uh, when you really try to, to like

629
00:40:13,264 --> 00:40:14,864
first principles the shit out of this.

630
00:40:15,524 --> 00:40:19,204
Yeah, and that's, that's like a few, a few internet, uh, Twitter

631
00:40:19,204 --> 00:40:22,744
battles recently with like, uh, out of the, kind of a shift.

632
00:40:23,410 --> 00:40:26,720
I wouldn't say it's an easy way to kind of categorize them, like people who

633
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:28,660
used to think what I, I used to think.

634
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,160
And yeah, they were kind of trying to pinpoint that where and I think

635
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,215
the difference is they're getting stuck in, stuck up on tangibility.

636
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:38,120
Being a thing.

637
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:42,680
And so like, when Menga talks about like commodities as being the example,

638
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:47,750
and Mies and stuff as well, it wasn't tangibility that was the actual uh, the

639
00:40:47,750 --> 00:40:49,190
reason for talking about commodities.

640
00:40:49,190 --> 00:40:52,510
It was talking about the pricing being similar.

641
00:40:52,820 --> 00:40:57,220
So, for like, for goods, so instead of like having, you know, uh, unique

642
00:40:57,220 --> 00:40:59,380
items that are big difference in price.

643
00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:00,680
Price range.

644
00:41:00,740 --> 00:41:03,840
It's like, okay, well, as a commodity, like commodities are a good example where

645
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:08,070
the price is very similar and that fits obviously Bitcoin perfectly in terms of

646
00:41:08,070 --> 00:41:12,590
like, say, from a gold perspective of like weight per ounce and whatnot and similar.

647
00:41:12,590 --> 00:41:18,645
And I think that's why Like Satoshi himself, as an example, when like

648
00:41:18,685 --> 00:41:22,095
early days, it's like, oh, it's like a collectible or like a commodity.

649
00:41:22,215 --> 00:41:26,025
And then I think a variety of our narratives that have fairly, you know,

650
00:41:26,535 --> 00:41:31,035
stuck where it's like mining and, you know, wallets and coins and all that.

651
00:41:31,245 --> 00:41:33,445
It's because it's banked on that truth a fair bit.

652
00:41:34,436 --> 00:41:41,821
so, was it, is this Hayek, like, uh, about the um, How money, uh, having another use

653
00:41:41,821 --> 00:41:47,311
case than, than a pure monetary use case actually makes it a worse form of money.

654
00:41:47,581 --> 00:41:52,771
So the thing that is making gold less useful as money is its use

655
00:41:52,771 --> 00:41:55,081
case in industry and as jewelry.

656
00:41:55,086 --> 00:41:56,821
Like what, what is that theory?

657
00:41:57,741 --> 00:42:01,915
Um, sorry, where my mind went there is that like I missed the point before, which

658
00:42:01,915 --> 00:42:04,785
was, yeah, debating with this gentleman was it was picking up on that, like,

659
00:42:04,785 --> 00:42:10,335
yeah, but Bitcoin was designed, like, to be money and the, the best money.

660
00:42:10,375 --> 00:42:13,365
And so that leap of.

661
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,620
Like, trying to find a non monetary use.

662
00:42:15,620 --> 00:42:18,180
Like, even if you're thinking about the early cyberpunks, you can do it

663
00:42:18,220 --> 00:42:23,540
where they're the non monetary values, like, ah, like, I've got a, like, think

664
00:42:23,550 --> 00:42:27,720
about like a, you know, a cool share as part of a stock or like, it's, you

665
00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:32,220
know, I'm a cyberpunk or whatever like, they're non monetary uses, like, and

666
00:42:32,220 --> 00:42:38,940
so I think that's the thing where some find it hard to, to grok or understand.

667
00:42:38,940 --> 00:42:41,920
It's like, even though, and it's like, well, that's subjective.

668
00:42:42,370 --> 00:42:47,520
It's like, well, yes, but so, but it's, it's um, Yeah, essentially

669
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,920
still fulfills, I think, yeah, like the, the mystery regression theorem.

670
00:42:51,270 --> 00:42:54,680
But yeah, it turns up like something about Hayek's point about, uh,

671
00:42:54,970 --> 00:42:57,170
I don't think it's necessarily Hayek in particular but you know,

672
00:42:57,170 --> 00:42:58,350
you want to maybe ask that again?

673
00:42:58,370 --> 00:42:58,930
Sorry, my mind

674
00:42:58,943 --> 00:42:59,060
was,

675
00:42:59,075 --> 00:43:02,445
I, I'm, I maybe got that wrong, but like, yeah, that, that other

676
00:43:02,445 --> 00:43:04,785
use cases for a monetary commodity.

677
00:43:04,910 --> 00:43:08,820
Uh, actually reduces its functionality as money.

678
00:43:08,820 --> 00:43:11,490
I think it's even in, in human action, this stuff.

679
00:43:12,114 --> 00:43:12,544
yeah, yeah.

680
00:43:12,544 --> 00:43:16,849
And um, and so that's why it's, it's, it's, uh, It's an odd one to handle

681
00:43:16,849 --> 00:43:20,019
with it's often like only the particular those from the Austrian school that kind

682
00:43:20,019 --> 00:43:23,829
of had that angle who is still kind of caught up on haven't done the work to

683
00:43:23,829 --> 00:43:25,319
understand what Bitcoin actually is.

684
00:43:25,679 --> 00:43:29,249
And that's often thing as well, like, if from an economic literacy

685
00:43:29,249 --> 00:43:32,019
perspective, like in shit coins and pre coins, like no coins and all

686
00:43:32,019 --> 00:43:33,589
that that's definitely an issue.

687
00:43:34,214 --> 00:43:37,544
Even if you have complete understanding economics you don't understand,

688
00:43:37,544 --> 00:43:41,864
go, do you have to do the level of work to understand Bitcoin, then

689
00:43:41,864 --> 00:43:43,974
you also won't get across the line.

690
00:43:44,224 --> 00:43:45,214
Uh, so that's,

691
00:43:46,081 --> 00:43:46,321
Yeah.

692
00:43:46,321 --> 00:43:51,561
And if we go back to the starting point of, uh, Bitcoin in terms of

693
00:43:51,721 --> 00:43:56,171
Mises regression theorem, I would say that like the, the first use case

694
00:43:56,201 --> 00:44:03,551
is as a collectible or as something um, which is a monetary use case.

695
00:44:03,641 --> 00:44:05,591
It's the store of value use case, right?

696
00:44:06,106 --> 00:44:10,626
Because, like, you, if you have a collectible, you use, sort of, you see

697
00:44:10,626 --> 00:44:14,356
value in it, and you sort of expect others to do at some point, too, right?

698
00:44:14,376 --> 00:44:17,836
So that, I would say that is some, sorry?

699
00:44:18,101 --> 00:44:18,461
but you're right.

700
00:44:18,461 --> 00:44:21,811
But then it's like, it's like several years though, those guys go through and

701
00:44:21,811 --> 00:44:23,891
like, not like just in the wilderness.

702
00:44:23,891 --> 00:44:24,221
Right.

703
00:44:24,281 --> 00:44:26,531
So, and then it does, does happen.

704
00:44:26,651 --> 00:44:26,761
So.

705
00:44:27,536 --> 00:44:31,016
Either way, like, yeah, it's how you want to categorize that, whether it's

706
00:44:31,096 --> 00:44:35,376
like a a non monetary because it's like, uh, you're part of a cool club

707
00:44:35,466 --> 00:44:39,086
or whatever, cyberpunks or whatever, or yes, it's absolutely banked on

708
00:44:39,476 --> 00:44:41,966
the idea that it could in, in future.

709
00:44:41,966 --> 00:44:44,716
And that is fully monetary and liberty related and whatnot, all

710
00:44:44,716 --> 00:44:46,326
that you know, ticks the box too.

711
00:44:46,876 --> 00:44:49,186
So yeah, Konrad goes through like there's six or seven different types

712
00:44:49,186 --> 00:44:53,446
of like, you know, things you could accept and either one, any, any,

713
00:44:53,706 --> 00:44:55,016
like, there's a mix of all of them.

714
00:44:55,246 --> 00:44:58,766
Or you could focus, like I said, there's absolutely some and none of others, but

715
00:44:59,126 --> 00:45:01,426
whatever it was, like, it has happened.

716
00:45:01,776 --> 00:45:05,756
It is like, and I like to ask, like, at what point for these guys who are

717
00:45:05,756 --> 00:45:09,356
like, still trying to, you know, shit on Bitcoin in the sense of a mushroom

718
00:45:09,356 --> 00:45:12,386
stack, it was like, what, at what point would you accept you're wrong?

719
00:45:12,386 --> 00:45:17,606
Like, is it going to be used like, I asked as a unit of account, like if it gets to

720
00:45:17,606 --> 00:45:19,676
that point, will you accept you're wrong?

721
00:45:20,046 --> 00:45:22,276
And Excel, like you can jump in Excel.

722
00:45:22,296 --> 00:45:26,296
Bitcoin's already part of like the the currency protocol, like whatever it

723
00:45:26,296 --> 00:45:29,246
is, like the international accounting standard are fairly certain where

724
00:45:29,246 --> 00:45:31,066
you can, you'd select it as a symbol.

725
00:45:31,336 --> 00:45:34,596
So I'm like waiting to dunk on, on old mate if he responds whether

726
00:45:34,596 --> 00:45:35,866
you'd like, that would be the case.

727
00:45:35,866 --> 00:45:36,756
Cause then you'd have to accept.

728
00:45:37,221 --> 00:45:41,001
Well, you know, alright, it's not a unique account now, but like, if if

729
00:45:41,001 --> 00:45:44,591
that's a part of the, the trajectory that we see becoming like, you know,

730
00:45:44,591 --> 00:45:49,531
the Bitcoin standard, uh, competing the other terrible currencies um, whether

731
00:45:49,531 --> 00:45:55,376
fiat or not um, yeah, I think it's, uh, Uh, it's, yeah, a matter of time.

732
00:45:55,376 --> 00:45:57,236
As long as there, I'm also like hesitant.

733
00:45:57,236 --> 00:46:00,786
There's talking about like, miscon, not misconceptions, but like people talking

734
00:46:00,786 --> 00:46:04,866
about like, oh, Bitcoin is inevitable, or Everything is good for Bitcoin.

735
00:46:05,176 --> 00:46:07,366
Couldn't be more against that approach where I feel like it's

736
00:46:07,366 --> 00:46:08,956
almost an attack factor in itself.

737
00:46:09,326 --> 00:46:14,476
Where like the element of, of truth is like when well, Bitcoiners, you know,

738
00:46:14,476 --> 00:46:19,666
who, who rise up and understand and, you know, reality and can, uh, monetary.

739
00:46:19,886 --> 00:46:24,276
Like economics where they can make good decisions around what, you know,

740
00:46:24,346 --> 00:46:26,966
should a path, should, should or should not be taken, what the consequences

741
00:46:26,966 --> 00:46:29,856
of such paths being taken helps.

742
00:46:29,856 --> 00:46:34,246
But yeah, where, like the inflation bugs, plural historically they've been

743
00:46:34,246 --> 00:46:39,706
too, uh, as far as I'm aware of and you need to go, well, what, at what

744
00:46:39,706 --> 00:46:44,442
point you know, the, the, the focus I think is like, uh, There's no is.

745
00:46:44,442 --> 00:46:45,402
It's just an opinion.

746
00:46:45,672 --> 00:46:48,652
It's like, oh, you know, all the spammers, scammers talking about, well,

747
00:46:49,162 --> 00:46:52,362
I point out the inflation bug constantly is because it draws them back to the

748
00:46:52,362 --> 00:46:56,622
point that, well, oh, they talk about, oh, there was consensus to change,

749
00:46:56,662 --> 00:46:58,132
like that, that was an actual bug.

750
00:46:58,162 --> 00:47:00,502
Like, if you don't have a frame of reference, like, well, what,

751
00:47:00,882 --> 00:47:02,292
there's no, Bitcoin has no purpose.

752
00:47:02,292 --> 00:47:04,392
Bitcoin can be a file storage system.

753
00:47:04,712 --> 00:47:08,112
You know, Bitcoin is whatever it is, like the system is what it says it is.

754
00:47:08,112 --> 00:47:09,892
It's like, well, then how do you know what a bug is?

755
00:47:10,602 --> 00:47:12,542
And like, what has been exploited or not?

756
00:47:12,912 --> 00:47:13,552
And like, what?

757
00:47:13,592 --> 00:47:16,702
And like, oh, there was consensus at that time too, that it was a bug.

758
00:47:16,702 --> 00:47:18,882
It's like, yeah, based on what?

759
00:47:19,242 --> 00:47:20,622
And I've never got an answer.

760
00:47:20,712 --> 00:47:24,552
Um, Like the copious amount of times I just pump this out in response

761
00:47:24,592 --> 00:47:25,982
to stuff and just get crickets.

762
00:47:26,462 --> 00:47:28,562
It's, it's, it's mind boggling because.

763
00:47:29,152 --> 00:47:33,992
Then it's like a reference of, well, do you think just the, you know, it's

764
00:47:33,992 --> 00:47:37,192
an opinion that like 21 million is all right, like a hard cap is a thing,

765
00:47:37,192 --> 00:47:43,272
or is it like uh, yeah, 198 billion Bitcoin, you know, is acceptable.

766
00:47:43,652 --> 00:47:47,082
And it's slightly worrying when there's like a core core dev who current, current

767
00:47:47,082 --> 00:47:52,462
maintainer, like their response to that was like, you know, in terms of.

768
00:47:53,127 --> 00:47:56,647
Jumping ahead potentially here, like ordinals and stuff where it's updating

769
00:47:56,647 --> 00:47:59,887
the documentation as opposed to fixing the bug would be considered like a

770
00:47:59,887 --> 00:48:02,697
valid fix and it's like, wait, what?

771
00:48:02,807 --> 00:48:06,627
Uh, so it's, yeah, few, few, few things, issues there.

772
00:48:07,227 --> 00:48:08,617
No, this, this is perfect.

773
00:48:08,627 --> 00:48:12,457
This is where we wanted to go with this, because, like, uh, uh, Okay.

774
00:48:12,807 --> 00:48:18,527
To, to, to summarize briefly, uh, Bitcoin, uh, does not

775
00:48:18,537 --> 00:48:20,347
violate Mises regression theorem.

776
00:48:20,357 --> 00:48:26,827
It sort of proves it because you can point to an exact point in space time where

777
00:48:26,877 --> 00:48:32,432
Bitcoin became not just a A subjective store of value, but an objective

778
00:48:32,432 --> 00:48:34,742
medium of exchange between two people.

779
00:48:34,942 --> 00:48:40,472
And that is Laszlo's pizza, two pizzas for, for 10, 000, 10, 000 bitcoins.

780
00:48:40,472 --> 00:48:42,032
That's, that's when it starts.

781
00:48:42,082 --> 00:48:44,332
That's when it becomes money in my mind.

782
00:48:44,382 --> 00:48:50,307
And, uh, and this thing was designed originally to be Damn near perfect money,

783
00:48:50,347 --> 00:48:55,076
like as perfect as you could get it, and ticking off all the boxes, uniformity,

784
00:48:55,076 --> 00:49:00,958
divisibility, transportability, you know, I've talked about it as element zero, and

785
00:49:00,958 --> 00:49:07,068
this Jörg Hemsdorff's idea of this being a massless element on the periodic table

786
00:49:07,068 --> 00:49:12,358
that cannot be destroyed and is scarce, and whoever finds the, The hash of the

787
00:49:12,368 --> 00:49:17,768
element or the map to where the element exists actually finds the actual element.

788
00:49:18,138 --> 00:49:23,498
All these amazing things about this new abstract thing that we've, we've got now.

789
00:49:24,178 --> 00:49:27,998
Uh, the, the thing it's trying to do, it's that it's trying to be

790
00:49:28,038 --> 00:49:29,598
damn near perfect money, as I said.

791
00:49:29,698 --> 00:49:38,163
So, uh, any other use case that you try to shoehorn onto that is, uh, Will

792
00:49:38,173 --> 00:49:43,743
eventually reduce its functionality as its originally intended purpose,

793
00:49:43,743 --> 00:49:45,073
which is damn near perfect money.

794
00:49:45,483 --> 00:49:52,043
So trying to say that there's such a thing as a rare sat is so weird, because

795
00:49:52,063 --> 00:49:55,583
a sat in my mind is more than just data.

796
00:49:55,603 --> 00:49:56,503
That's the whole point.

797
00:49:56,883 --> 00:49:58,773
It's something that exists within you.

798
00:49:58,793 --> 00:50:00,053
It's a way to measure the world.

799
00:50:00,358 --> 00:50:05,258
It's like saying that there's a rare inch or a rare centimeter.

800
00:50:05,528 --> 00:50:06,528
There's no such thing.

801
00:50:06,538 --> 00:50:09,578
There's only unspent transaction outputs, right?

802
00:50:09,618 --> 00:50:14,408
And they have a certain figure attached to them, but there's no such thing as a SAT.

803
00:50:15,458 --> 00:50:20,653
The whole thing about it is that it's It exists in your mind, it is a part

804
00:50:20,653 --> 00:50:25,123
of you, because you are part of this network that agrees on this fixed set

805
00:50:25,123 --> 00:50:30,003
of rules that make people not cheat when thinking in economic terms, and

806
00:50:30,003 --> 00:50:36,803
it's just wonderful, and here, all of a sudden, you have cheap um, fiat suckers

807
00:50:37,708 --> 00:50:43,488
And charlatans and, and, uh, snake oil salesmen who try to sell you like a star

808
00:50:43,488 --> 00:50:49,938
in the environment galaxy, they try to impose this, the concept of a, a rare set,

809
00:50:49,938 --> 00:50:54,668
which doesn't exist to begin with because any data, arbitrary data you attach to

810
00:50:54,668 --> 00:50:59,048
anything in the time chain is attached to a transaction, not to a satoshi.

811
00:50:59,378 --> 00:51:03,458
So, so the whole concept is false to begin with.

812
00:51:03,488 --> 00:51:07,518
And all of these sites that can debunk, that, that can transform whatever

813
00:51:07,528 --> 00:51:12,748
data you put into, into a monkey JPEG or something, they can go down.

814
00:51:12,748 --> 00:51:17,478
They, they are not part of the security model of this fantastic thing at all.

815
00:51:17,558 --> 00:51:20,508
They're, they're, they're just third party bullshit thingies.

816
00:51:20,838 --> 00:51:23,208
So yeah, that's my little rant about it.

817
00:51:23,208 --> 00:51:23,928
What's yours?

818
00:51:24,098 --> 00:51:25,248
I'd love to hear yours.

819
00:51:25,406 --> 00:51:30,086
Well, yeah, like, and I think part of it, uh, so the creator of Ordinals

820
00:51:30,086 --> 00:51:35,876
like um, Casey Roddemore he had a tweet a while back and, uh, I think

821
00:51:35,876 --> 00:51:39,446
it was started towards the bull market and it was basically admitted that I

822
00:51:39,446 --> 00:51:43,506
mean, besides on his blog on Bruins, Bruins where he talks about like 99.

823
00:51:43,506 --> 00:51:43,706
9%.

824
00:51:43,916 --> 00:51:44,976
These are like scams.

825
00:51:45,418 --> 00:51:48,078
and it's like, well, yeah, this is, you know, you haven't

826
00:51:48,078 --> 00:51:48,918
made the case that this 0.

827
00:51:48,918 --> 00:51:53,468
01 percent isn't, is also a scam for what you've created.

828
00:51:53,788 --> 00:51:57,502
Through, through an exploit, uh, but also he admitted that.

829
00:51:57,807 --> 00:52:02,117
It wasn't part of Bitcoin, like the asset itself and the, the

830
00:52:02,117 --> 00:52:05,207
challenge that I, I, I, I back like, okay, you're absolutely correct.

831
00:52:05,207 --> 00:52:10,567
It's not part of like the asset in Bitcoin itself the rivalrous digital commodity

832
00:52:10,597 --> 00:52:14,607
and then, okay, well then what's the point of the network, the open source

833
00:52:14,607 --> 00:52:19,617
monetary network, if it's not to, to secure or to send, you know, receive you

834
00:52:19,617 --> 00:52:21,656
know, receive and send that, that asset.

835
00:52:22,197 --> 00:52:22,997
And again, crickets.

836
00:52:23,147 --> 00:52:26,697
Like it's, it's to me, it's like pretty simple.

837
00:52:26,957 --> 00:52:31,097
You know, Bitcoin, uh, you know, P2P electronic cash system.

838
00:52:31,387 --> 00:52:35,047
And yeah, specialization, individual labor is a thing.

839
00:52:35,357 --> 00:52:37,957
If you like, I asked a while back on Twitter as well.

840
00:52:37,967 --> 00:52:41,412
I was like, oh, if you, Do you think sprinkling confetti and

841
00:52:41,752 --> 00:52:44,652
sparkles on your gold coin would, like, increase its monetary

842
00:52:44,652 --> 00:52:47,212
properties, like, or, or destroy it?

843
00:52:47,352 --> 00:52:50,152
And I think, yeah, if you're on a gold standard, people are

844
00:52:50,152 --> 00:52:50,922
like, what the fuck is this?

845
00:52:51,382 --> 00:52:52,652
Like, no, I'm not accepting that.

846
00:52:52,932 --> 00:52:54,952
Um, Or would, would, you know, have to, like, oh, I gotta

847
00:52:54,952 --> 00:52:56,072
get, get this off it now.

848
00:52:56,652 --> 00:52:59,522
Yeah, and there's like discussions around like fungibility and whether like it

849
00:52:59,522 --> 00:53:04,222
impacts that type of stuff, whether, or, you know, as an, as an lens that you have

850
00:53:04,222 --> 00:53:08,104
to kind of buy into you know, whether you're inadvertently sending those quote

851
00:53:08,104 --> 00:53:12,214
unquote rare sats around and like whatever they are, they're dick butts you know, on

852
00:53:12,214 --> 00:53:14,524
the, on the blockchain, uh, time chain.

853
00:53:14,524 --> 00:53:17,574
And it's yeah, it's, it's like, guys, if you want to, and often

854
00:53:17,574 --> 00:53:20,454
they talk about, you know, they try and angle it in free speech terms.

855
00:53:20,454 --> 00:53:24,554
You get like, I mean, shitcoin magazine going on around you know, David Bailey

856
00:53:24,564 --> 00:53:27,144
and stuff like, oh, like, you know, Assange, like Frigil and stuff like that.

857
00:53:27,154 --> 00:53:27,814
Absolutely.

858
00:53:27,814 --> 00:53:28,734
That goes without question.

859
00:53:28,734 --> 00:53:32,584
But then, like, the trying to hijack the piggyback the spam case onto that

860
00:53:32,604 --> 00:53:37,888
as if, like, on the time chain having, you know, um, long term permanent info,

861
00:53:37,888 --> 00:53:42,378
like, our data on there, like images or whatever is like a helpful thing.

862
00:53:42,378 --> 00:53:43,058
It's like, guys.

863
00:53:43,558 --> 00:53:46,958
It's a thing called BitTorrents, like you want to store your, your, your,

864
00:53:46,958 --> 00:53:51,228
your data, like forever, you know, and like, okay, host yourself, but it's

865
00:53:51,668 --> 00:53:54,518
a good meme and so like, well, no, I don't want, I don't want to store it.

866
00:53:54,528 --> 00:53:55,918
I want you to store it for me.

867
00:53:55,958 --> 00:53:57,128
Like, you know, cheaply.

868
00:53:57,488 --> 00:54:00,278
And then the part of the narrative is like, well, there's, there's

869
00:54:00,318 --> 00:54:03,218
been other venues that have been able to do that, you know, Ethereum,

870
00:54:03,548 --> 00:54:05,128
you know, Solart, whatever.

871
00:54:05,693 --> 00:54:11,073
But because those shitcoins, you know, trending to zero, jumping, jumping

872
00:54:11,073 --> 00:54:15,733
ship, where they have put their, you know, JPAY, their dickbutt on, you know,

873
00:54:15,733 --> 00:54:18,653
wherever it is, now that chains are like that, that coin, you know, kind

874
00:54:18,653 --> 00:54:22,983
of a coin's irrelevant and then loses monetary prop, like the value they can

875
00:54:22,983 --> 00:54:24,883
dump, dump it off to someone else for.

876
00:54:25,193 --> 00:54:27,973
So the value prop is now out there and sinking ships and

877
00:54:27,973 --> 00:54:29,193
the rats are jumping ship.

878
00:54:29,463 --> 00:54:34,093
To come into Bitcoin, which, you know, they get the, the part value of being

879
00:54:34,463 --> 00:54:41,183
like number go up uh, but also um, like the permanency element to it.

880
00:54:41,593 --> 00:54:45,763
And yeah, it's, it's, uh, I guess that'd be one kind of rabbit hole rant

881
00:54:46,063 --> 00:54:49,043
for me, but there's, there's a few different ways to think about it as well.

882
00:54:49,043 --> 00:54:52,363
Like often they kind of go towards the technical stuff and it's like, I

883
00:54:52,373 --> 00:54:54,090
think trying to keep it, fairly simple.

884
00:54:54,490 --> 00:54:57,810
The analogy I originally, originally had was like chess players, like

885
00:54:57,810 --> 00:54:59,350
where it's like a chess club.

886
00:54:59,695 --> 00:55:02,095
Essentially, I was running Bitcoin where they're implicitly explicitly.

887
00:55:02,095 --> 00:55:04,475
It's like a monet, it's an open source monetary network.

888
00:55:04,705 --> 00:55:06,175
Um, You're, you're part of that.

889
00:55:06,175 --> 00:55:09,105
You're running that you're, you know, part of a chess club, perhaps

890
00:55:09,715 --> 00:55:11,275
with like a public element to it.

891
00:55:11,625 --> 00:55:15,205
So anyone can join um, but there's certain rules around that and, you know, consensus

892
00:55:15,205 --> 00:55:20,290
on what, what is, you know, that um, it's almost like with the chess players.

893
00:55:20,380 --> 00:55:23,396
Um, So we're all playing, Having, you know, playing games or whatever

894
00:55:23,396 --> 00:55:26,736
in there in, in the club and then chess player, check, checkers

895
00:55:26,736 --> 00:55:27,776
players kind of rocking up.

896
00:55:27,986 --> 00:55:29,876
It's not like they're in the corner doing their own little thing.

897
00:55:30,096 --> 00:55:33,686
All of a sudden they get like megaphones, you know, having fun um,

898
00:55:33,716 --> 00:55:36,812
having like a flash mob you know, organizing events and dumping stuff.

899
00:55:36,812 --> 00:55:39,772
And what it is doing is crowding out the real chess players,

900
00:55:39,782 --> 00:55:41,052
like the real organic growth.

901
00:55:41,517 --> 00:55:46,697
And the challenges long term, like some of the Bitcoiners who I kind of

902
00:55:46,847 --> 00:55:50,407
categorize as like, not the scammers or spammers, but like enablers or chief

903
00:55:50,417 --> 00:55:54,127
enablers where it's almost like, okay, these guys, these are, they're exploiting

904
00:55:54,127 --> 00:55:55,707
a bug here, they're breaking the rules.

905
00:55:55,987 --> 00:56:00,507
We've obviously got to update the filters or fix them or, you know,

906
00:56:00,527 --> 00:56:04,647
whatever the mechanisms there are to, to, you know, ask them to leave

907
00:56:04,657 --> 00:56:05,777
or essentially get kick them out.

908
00:56:06,077 --> 00:56:06,707
Because they're.

909
00:56:07,097 --> 00:56:10,577
Checkers players in a chess club and long term, that's going to ruin the chess club.

910
00:56:10,857 --> 00:56:13,197
Like you're crazy if you don't think that's going to impact it.

911
00:56:13,467 --> 00:56:16,687
And so what it is, though, is like those high prices or fees.

912
00:56:16,687 --> 00:56:18,137
It's not about the fees per se.

913
00:56:18,447 --> 00:56:22,287
But if we use economics and we understand economics where it's on a counterfactual

914
00:56:22,287 --> 00:56:25,587
level or comparative analysis, like whatever those fees are, they're

915
00:56:25,597 --> 00:56:27,337
higher than they otherwise would be.

916
00:56:27,597 --> 00:56:31,687
And that's pricing out or crowding out real chess players or real bitcoiners

917
00:56:31,747 --> 00:56:35,802
who would join Whether third world, whether cheaper, like where fees are

918
00:56:35,852 --> 00:56:37,422
make it more viable for them there.

919
00:56:37,722 --> 00:56:41,262
And yeah, so it's, it's an angle of and sometimes like, you know, pushing on the,

920
00:56:41,292 --> 00:56:44,592
on the chief enablers a bit more where they're like, ah, they've got, these guys

921
00:56:44,592 --> 00:56:47,822
got checkers players are in there, got megaphones, like for the halving, I'm

922
00:56:47,822 --> 00:56:52,537
sure like rooms are trying to To do that again, you organize some intention and,

923
00:56:52,537 --> 00:56:55,877
and you know, high fees and then like make various other arguments, but it's,

924
00:56:56,307 --> 00:57:00,917
it's, you guys are literally crowding out the real use case for Bitcoin and no

925
00:57:00,917 --> 00:57:05,457
one else signed up to like essentially have, uh, still dick butt um, JPEGs

926
00:57:05,487 --> 00:57:08,237
on, uh, their nodes and their property.

927
00:57:08,297 --> 00:57:10,947
So yeah, anyway, it's a bit of another rant.

928
00:57:12,047 --> 00:57:16,417
I'd love to, uh, I'd love to take us, uh, try another spin on that analogy because

929
00:57:16,417 --> 00:57:21,927
I love the chess analogy because Bitcoin, as, as we said before, it's, uh, just

930
00:57:21,927 --> 00:57:23,497
an agreement on a fixed set of rules.

931
00:57:24,097 --> 00:57:25,097
And so is chess.

932
00:57:25,627 --> 00:57:27,497
Chess is an agreement on a fixed set of rules.

933
00:57:27,867 --> 00:57:33,097
The last time chess was changed was in the 11th century when the Passant move.

934
00:57:33,437 --> 00:57:36,457
Uh, was introduced where you could, uh, uh, en passant.

935
00:57:36,797 --> 00:57:39,637
So, uh, so it hasn't changed for a very long time.

936
00:57:40,197 --> 00:57:44,827
Even though there are now great big chess institutions like chess.

937
00:57:45,047 --> 00:57:49,397
com or, or the international chess whatever, who can try to change

938
00:57:49,437 --> 00:57:52,797
the rules, but they, they're trying to change the rules, won't.

939
00:57:52,982 --> 00:57:57,852
Uh, the majority of chess players will still play by the old rules that they

940
00:57:57,852 --> 00:57:59,462
know that there's a consensus around.

941
00:57:59,462 --> 00:58:01,352
So it's very analogous to Bitcoin in that sense.

942
00:58:01,812 --> 00:58:06,912
And I view the shitcoins, like Bitcoin Cash for instance, is a chess being

943
00:58:06,912 --> 00:58:09,762
played on a board with 64 times 64.

944
00:58:10,647 --> 00:58:15,027
Uh, squares, instead of just eight times eight, and there are very few

945
00:58:15,057 --> 00:58:18,937
players that play that game because it's a pointless game, and it just

946
00:58:18,937 --> 00:58:20,587
makes the game more expensive.

947
00:58:20,697 --> 00:58:24,637
It makes it, you need way more space to play it, and people

948
00:58:24,637 --> 00:58:25,637
don't want to play that game.

949
00:58:25,867 --> 00:58:30,727
You have Chess Ethereum, which, uh, Chess Ethereum is where, uh, the

950
00:58:30,727 --> 00:58:32,517
rules are changed with every move.

951
00:58:33,047 --> 00:58:37,687
And you can do whatever, you can program the, like, nobody gives a crap about that.

952
00:58:37,687 --> 00:58:45,217
And ChessNero, which is the metaphor for Monero, is like normal chess except no one

953
00:58:45,217 --> 00:58:47,177
knows how many pieces there really are.

954
00:58:47,497 --> 00:58:51,547
And every move is hidden from everyone else, so there's no real,

955
00:58:51,867 --> 00:58:53,547
you can't really tell what's going on.

956
00:58:54,297 --> 00:59:00,207
But this is, to me, the ordinals here, they are, okay, so the minor is analogous

957
00:59:00,267 --> 00:59:09,482
to, uh, A great big chess organization or chess institution, uh, that starts a

958
00:59:09,482 --> 00:59:14,722
tournament, a chess tournament and all of a sudden they, they put weights on

959
00:59:14,732 --> 00:59:19,252
the chess boards that the players need to remove by hand in order to play the game

960
00:59:19,712 --> 00:59:23,672
and they insist on putting these weights on there because there's a weight salesman

961
00:59:23,682 --> 00:59:27,907
outside that, that, uh, off band, uh, you.

962
00:59:28,227 --> 00:59:30,317
gets paid to put weights on the tables.

963
00:59:30,987 --> 00:59:32,367
There's something like that.

964
00:59:32,847 --> 00:59:34,667
It's another attack vector.

965
00:59:34,667 --> 00:59:39,167
These actors are so bad.

966
00:59:39,787 --> 00:59:46,307
You're missing With, like, the most, the best form of, uh, you know,

967
00:59:46,317 --> 00:59:51,417
civilizational organization tool that ever existed in the history of

968
00:59:51,417 --> 00:59:53,843
mankind, and you're fucking it up.

969
00:59:54,375 --> 00:59:55,145
No, no, no, you're right.

970
00:59:55,155 --> 00:59:58,815
And it's like the, the, it's like, oh, well, you know, it's like, we'll wait

971
00:59:58,815 --> 01:00:03,075
out the pricing, you know, like wait it out in terms of like, okay, well, often

972
01:00:03,075 --> 01:00:06,505
I was like, we'll give a timeline for the, like, as a chief enabler, like when,

973
01:00:06,515 --> 01:00:08,995
when's long, like, when's long enough that you think fees are going to, like,

974
01:00:08,995 --> 01:00:10,215
high fees are going to price it out.

975
01:00:10,565 --> 01:00:11,365
It's already been a year.

976
01:00:11,715 --> 01:00:12,965
You know, what is that?

977
01:00:12,965 --> 01:00:15,705
And we can go revisit there for them directly.

978
01:00:16,085 --> 01:00:19,315
But even then it's like, it's never going to get a price out, like from,

979
01:00:19,355 --> 01:00:22,995
from the, These, these, you know, scammers, spammers, like those that are,

980
01:00:23,025 --> 01:00:26,705
you know, going to try and dunk on the, pass it on to dunk on the next fool.

981
01:00:27,025 --> 01:00:30,311
Is, like if someone said like a thousand, like it was a thousand dollar

982
01:00:30,311 --> 01:00:34,511
transaction or like the terms of the price of the fees that are being sent,

983
01:00:34,531 --> 01:00:36,191
like, you would be like, oh, we'll pay.

984
01:00:36,536 --> 01:00:41,406
20, like 1, 000 of value being transmitted, like 20 fee or whatever, 50,

985
01:00:41,466 --> 01:00:43,046
like the percentage of that, like, okay.

986
01:00:44,566 --> 01:00:47,126
opposite though, you're trying to compete against someone who they don't

987
01:00:47,126 --> 01:00:48,646
care about the value being transmitted.

988
01:00:48,646 --> 01:00:53,026
They'll like spend 995 that gets as a fee.

989
01:00:53,246 --> 01:00:58,226
And 5 as like the remainder of the value being transmitted.

990
01:00:58,626 --> 01:01:02,296
That's what the pricing, you're actually competing against.

991
01:01:02,806 --> 01:01:06,096
And it's like, that's never, it's like, not going to happen.

992
01:01:06,096 --> 01:01:08,856
Like, yeah, then it's a question around, we're like, okay,

993
01:01:08,856 --> 01:01:10,416
getting rid of the discount.

994
01:01:11,151 --> 01:01:11,991
Will that help or not?

995
01:01:11,991 --> 01:01:16,371
Or like, you know, whatnot, but it's on the, on the face value of it.

996
01:01:16,371 --> 01:01:18,871
Like, I don't think there's ever going to be like pricing it out.

997
01:01:18,871 --> 01:01:19,931
It's like, okay, again, how long?

998
01:01:19,931 --> 01:01:22,971
It's already been a year you know, seemingly growing in terms of

999
01:01:22,971 --> 01:01:26,941
like, or adjusting to the amount of where arbitrary data can be put.

1000
01:01:27,311 --> 01:01:31,531
And it's essentially like, okay, often the other objection is it's, you know, the

1001
01:01:31,531 --> 01:01:35,031
cat and mouse game um, where you do one.

1002
01:01:35,571 --> 01:01:38,571
Uh, you whack, you know, fix one filter and like, oh, they, they

1003
01:01:38,571 --> 01:01:40,711
try something else and you could put arbitrary data anywhere else.

1004
01:01:40,711 --> 01:01:45,291
It's like, yes, that's essentially um, that's well understood, but it's

1005
01:01:45,291 --> 01:01:49,561
like a Nirvana fallacy of instead of understanding that like spam, you

1006
01:01:49,561 --> 01:01:52,691
know, you can't ever get rid of spam, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be

1007
01:01:52,691 --> 01:01:56,861
taking steps like to mitigate it um, and a very obvious and very easy ones.

1008
01:01:57,073 --> 01:02:01,253
And also, On terms of like looking historically what's been successful is

1009
01:02:01,253 --> 01:02:06,353
like 2014 OpReturn Wars where there was like decent, there was a period of like

1010
01:02:06,353 --> 01:02:11,193
counterparty and others like Satoshi Dice like for a round with Core and

1011
01:02:11,223 --> 01:02:13,653
their approach was like, no, we're going to play this kind of mouse game and

1012
01:02:13,653 --> 01:02:14,933
we're going to, we're going to call you.

1013
01:02:15,268 --> 01:02:22,048
Uh, or, you know, it's like, all right, and then essentially rug pulling the VCs

1014
01:02:22,048 --> 01:02:26,118
and all that, who put funds into, all right, well, we're going to use dApps, get

1015
01:02:26,118 --> 01:02:30,828
decentralized apps on Bitcoin and do all that type of non monetary specific stuff.

1016
01:02:31,178 --> 01:02:35,908
And instead, like their reaction pushed that towards become essentially Ethereum.

1017
01:02:36,558 --> 01:02:37,518
Um, So it's like.

1018
01:02:37,808 --> 01:02:43,218
Well, what could do as a social response, like again, now um, achieve

1019
01:02:43,218 --> 01:02:47,978
the same result, but there's, it's an interesting piece around, well, yeah,

1020
01:02:48,568 --> 01:02:54,823
I don't think the, the current call maintainers potentially are um, Is

1021
01:02:54,823 --> 01:02:57,373
including, this is an interesting point 'cause like, so my, from an ignorance's

1022
01:02:57,373 --> 01:03:01,593
point, I'm not sure whether the OGs like Cyberpunks had, I'm sure they had

1023
01:03:01,593 --> 01:03:04,743
that more implicit understanding of economics 'cause it to make Bitcoin

1024
01:03:04,748 --> 01:03:05,973
where it was and to maintain that.

1025
01:03:06,413 --> 01:03:09,383
Now I think there's maybe it's less overt and less in your face.

1026
01:03:09,653 --> 01:03:13,043
So you have the bit process, for instance, bit Bitcoin improvement

1027
01:03:13,113 --> 01:03:17,263
protocols where like to, to write like the, there's many, many that are there

1028
01:03:17,263 --> 01:03:20,743
to change it, but I don't see our, I was like BIP two was essentially.

1029
01:03:21,658 --> 01:03:25,288
lays out what you need to kind of cover in that proposal, but there's absolutely

1030
01:03:25,288 --> 01:03:30,688
nothing around like, well, is there trust that's reintroduced, reintroduced?

1031
01:03:30,738 --> 01:03:33,678
Like, how does this improve Bitcoin's monetary properties?

1032
01:03:34,118 --> 01:03:36,678
Is this impacting the asset directly itself?

1033
01:03:36,988 --> 01:03:40,078
Or is this like the peer to peer electronic cash system?

1034
01:03:40,198 --> 01:03:41,938
Like the peer to peer system is the network.

1035
01:03:42,168 --> 01:03:43,668
Is that what the improvement's about?

1036
01:03:44,028 --> 01:03:44,978
Are there any trade offs?

1037
01:03:45,028 --> 01:03:45,828
Like what are they?

1038
01:03:46,068 --> 01:03:48,728
Like all these things that you would think would be fairly explicit and

1039
01:03:48,728 --> 01:03:51,058
vital, like this needs to be answered.

1040
01:03:51,668 --> 01:03:54,368
As to whether the BIP should go ahead or not aren't.

1041
01:03:54,378 --> 01:03:55,348
It's not explicit at all.

1042
01:03:55,348 --> 01:04:00,968
It's almost up to the economic knowledge or literacy of the devs.

1043
01:04:01,568 --> 01:04:05,698
Which from what I've seen lately is, like, is not great.

1044
01:04:05,708 --> 01:04:11,348
And there's a kind of concern, I think, from my perspective, I and others have

1045
01:04:11,408 --> 01:04:14,348
seen where there's a bug that's being exploited and it's not being fixed.

1046
01:04:14,348 --> 01:04:15,908
It's like, okay, well, why?

1047
01:04:16,168 --> 01:04:18,738
And you kind of go down some rabbit holes and it's actually.

1048
01:04:19,063 --> 01:04:24,938
Very eye opening in terms of how, like, I think as a, an issue or thread or um,

1049
01:04:24,978 --> 01:04:29,878
you know, not ideal and, and it's like the topic of, so we're going over so many

1050
01:04:29,878 --> 01:04:33,059
places here, but like the topic of then like dev funding, it's interesting one

1051
01:04:33,059 --> 01:04:37,329
is like, okay, well, there's no strings attached from some certain organizations.

1052
01:04:37,469 --> 01:04:41,029
It's like, well, yeah, but they really only funding you as a dev

1053
01:04:41,029 --> 01:04:46,459
because they like what you, you plan to do and it helps them explicitly.

1054
01:04:46,619 --> 01:04:50,329
But no strings attached or you know, is it the plebs rising up essentially as

1055
01:04:50,329 --> 01:04:54,874
number goes up becoming more involved and the, the, the self interest

1056
01:04:55,144 --> 01:04:58,314
instead of maybe like getting rid of nine to five, you've got such wealth

1057
01:04:58,324 --> 01:05:02,574
that you can spend to protect your asset that you're currently with.

1058
01:05:02,574 --> 01:05:04,964
And so is that like a thing that happens as a result?

1059
01:05:05,314 --> 01:05:08,164
And then, yeah, whether like, you know, I'd like to hope there's like, you

1060
01:05:08,164 --> 01:05:11,094
know, sailor and other institutions who are understand the monetary.

1061
01:05:11,334 --> 01:05:15,664
Um, Use case um, and kind of help rise up to, to protect that against,

1062
01:05:16,004 --> 01:05:19,094
you know, an asset that it is worth it is like, you're, you're crazy

1063
01:05:19,094 --> 01:05:20,414
naive if you don't think there's.

1064
01:05:21,724 --> 01:05:22,884
It's already being attacked.

1065
01:05:23,184 --> 01:05:26,778
And that, that measure isn't just going to be like a, The Instant

1066
01:05:26,778 --> 01:05:28,324
Estate with like a 5 wrench.

1067
01:05:28,604 --> 01:05:33,274
It is like some, I would be surprised from the bad actors that we've seen

1068
01:05:33,274 --> 01:05:38,729
with like, uh, either the, the, Useful idiots or there's some with like their

1069
01:05:38,729 --> 01:05:44,329
own state backgrounds in, in, in dark areas that if even if it's completely

1070
01:05:44,329 --> 01:05:47,889
like there's no state funding, there's no like, this is just bad VCs and all that.

1071
01:05:47,909 --> 01:05:50,369
It's like, it's actually worse because it's almost they're

1072
01:05:50,369 --> 01:05:51,749
doing the state's job for them.

1073
01:05:52,249 --> 01:05:57,679
So yeah, it's the, it's, it's, yeah, it's the challenge that we all currently face.

1074
01:05:57,679 --> 01:06:01,879
And I think it's addressing it directly, but also indirectly is, is helping kind

1075
01:06:01,879 --> 01:06:06,079
of expand, like, spread the knowledge of economics and understanding because

1076
01:06:06,109 --> 01:06:08,309
that can, you know, for any person.

1077
01:06:08,979 --> 01:06:12,149
People, it's just ignorance or like I'm helping, I'm building.

1078
01:06:12,459 --> 01:06:14,479
It's like, yeah, but you're not building anything good.

1079
01:06:14,539 --> 01:06:18,359
And it's actually taking away from the value prop of, of Bitcoin.

1080
01:06:18,479 --> 01:06:18,629
I

1081
01:06:18,988 --> 01:06:25,078
Yeah, uh, so the way I see this is, is, uh, it's pretty simple, either Bitcoin

1082
01:06:25,088 --> 01:06:30,898
works or it doesn't, and time will tell if it does, it's still somewhat

1083
01:06:30,928 --> 01:06:35,532
experimental, it seems like it's working, and there's always a case to

1084
01:06:35,542 --> 01:06:39,992
be made for Bitcoin conservatism and being pro ossification, at least in the

1085
01:06:39,992 --> 01:06:45,592
long run and at some point, but also, like, Bitcoin is not backed by energy.

1086
01:06:45,592 --> 01:06:48,522
It's backed by human action and people making choices.

1087
01:06:48,562 --> 01:06:51,832
There's always a choice behind every, every move.

1088
01:06:52,252 --> 01:06:56,732
And it becomes tricky when stuff like this kind of spam attack happens,

1089
01:06:56,822 --> 01:06:59,001
because like our resolve gets tested.

1090
01:06:59,001 --> 01:07:05,942
And just as you say, like the, the way to fight it is to do the other thing

1091
01:07:05,942 --> 01:07:09,862
that is also possible, which is filtering these things out and pushing for, you

1092
01:07:09,862 --> 01:07:11,622
know, things like ocean mining too.

1093
01:07:11,622 --> 01:07:12,552
Uh, and, uh,

1094
01:07:12,957 --> 01:07:16,907
took up mining with Ocean specifically so I could, yeah, get the

1095
01:07:16,907 --> 01:07:19,527
satisfaction of, of filtering spam.

1096
01:07:19,877 --> 01:07:25,147
And geez, it, it, it, it's a, it's a fun thing that I'm having fun.

1097
01:07:25,267 --> 01:07:29,177
That's the, that the filtering spam, it gets your kicks and like it

1098
01:07:29,177 --> 01:07:33,338
is, you know, taking, yeah, you're right, action around supporting

1099
01:07:33,398 --> 01:07:35,058
exactly what I think Bitcoin is.

1100
01:07:35,058 --> 01:07:39,408
And it's there's, there's that ocean things like bisque, you know, I kind

1101
01:07:39,408 --> 01:07:43,908
of use and using the tools and other ways like where um, and that's partly

1102
01:07:43,908 --> 01:07:48,168
another impact where, you know this kind of decentralized exchange there's

1103
01:07:48,168 --> 01:07:51,938
four on chain transactions currently um, I kind of try and push them to make,

1104
01:07:51,938 --> 01:07:55,698
there's a single on chain transaction, I think, in the works, like BIS2 has

1105
01:07:55,698 --> 01:07:59,628
recently been released BISKEASY, and there's a long term plan to, to do that,

1106
01:07:59,628 --> 01:08:04,028
but it fees higher, like, there's a higher impact for those that are using

1107
01:08:04,078 --> 01:08:09,118
BISK decentralized exchange to, to get non KYC sats and Bitcoin but the spam,

1108
01:08:09,148 --> 01:08:10,888
so, like, that's another layer to it.

1109
01:08:11,218 --> 01:08:14,638
As well, like pricing out, like people real who are trying to engage

1110
01:08:14,698 --> 01:08:16,728
um, and transfer um, use Bitcoin

1111
01:08:18,260 --> 01:08:20,330
BISC, that's, that's an interesting subject.

1112
01:08:20,450 --> 01:08:21,770
You can tell us a bit more about BISC.

1113
01:08:21,830 --> 01:08:23,390
What's the TLDR on BISC?

1114
01:08:24,500 --> 01:08:24,790
bisk.

1115
01:08:24,855 --> 01:08:29,205
The TLD is like, I feel like that's the exchange that Satoshi would would've used.

1116
01:08:29,465 --> 01:08:31,915
It where there's.

1117
01:08:32,525 --> 01:08:36,145
As kind of what goes back to 2014 I think BISC is usually, it'd be

1118
01:08:36,145 --> 01:08:41,265
like Bitcoin Square and then kind of condensed to, to be ISQ um, BISC.

1119
01:08:41,685 --> 01:08:42,975
Yeah, non KYC.

1120
01:08:43,025 --> 01:08:45,335
So the summary is, I'm trying to keep it too, too long.

1121
01:08:45,425 --> 01:08:46,805
I did speak at DoBitcoinAlive.

1122
01:08:47,210 --> 01:08:50,850
Um, Talk about it like last, not like, yeah, last year.

1123
01:08:51,440 --> 01:08:53,600
For those that are interested, it wasn't so much the how, it

1124
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:54,940
was like why you would use it.

1125
01:08:55,230 --> 01:08:58,370
But the thing about it is like, uh, there's a two or

1126
01:08:58,370 --> 01:09:00,250
two multi sig like an escrow.

1127
01:09:00,250 --> 01:09:05,133
You need Bitcoin to engage, but it's I guess the real quick walkthrough of how

1128
01:09:05,133 --> 01:09:07,603
it would work is yeah, I've got Bitcoin.

1129
01:09:07,723 --> 01:09:10,773
I, on the exchange, I want to say, sell Bitcoin.

1130
01:09:10,773 --> 01:09:12,383
I want to buy Bitcoin and you're going to sell it.

1131
01:09:12,683 --> 01:09:16,373
I'm, uh, see your, uh, transaction.

1132
01:09:16,693 --> 01:09:22,073
You've set the parameters around um, you paid the, you put the Bitcoin.

1133
01:09:22,260 --> 01:09:23,690
that's verified on chain.

1134
01:09:23,990 --> 01:09:27,150
You've, uh, you've got a security deposit there.

1135
01:09:27,170 --> 01:09:28,640
I put forward a security deposit.

1136
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:33,100
You've stated how you want the funds, whether it's like pay ID, you know,

1137
01:09:33,100 --> 01:09:36,590
fintech, cash by mail, meet in person.

1138
01:09:36,590 --> 01:09:37,550
There's a litany of them.

1139
01:09:37,910 --> 01:09:41,870
And then I See those terms, I accept, accept them.

1140
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:45,600
Basically, essentially a smart contract kind of happens where we're engaged.

1141
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:50,210
I can then see your details and then I go, great, I've started the

1142
01:09:50,210 --> 01:09:55,050
process, I've paid transfer the funds as needed which is often like, say,

1143
01:09:55,050 --> 01:10:00,600
fiat or cash by mail or whatever, you then go, great, I've now got them,

1144
01:10:00,780 --> 01:10:06,250
I've received them and then I release the Bitcoin and so from a Uh, state

1145
01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:09,290
perspective, it's like, it's fiat to fiat.

1146
01:10:09,380 --> 01:10:11,400
It's like, or cash by mail or whatever.

1147
01:10:11,670 --> 01:10:13,560
There's no um, uh, it helps.

1148
01:10:13,770 --> 01:10:17,730
There's a decentralized exchange essentially where the real price of

1149
01:10:17,730 --> 01:10:22,230
Bitcoin is more or less where with centralized exchanges, KYC, your

1150
01:10:22,230 --> 01:10:25,920
customer, there's threats, there's risk in terms of status, everything.

1151
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:31,230
And then like, also um, your, your um, Details being leaked um, and which is

1152
01:10:31,230 --> 01:10:33,790
not great, which is, you know, those hacks kind of happen and stuff as well.

1153
01:10:33,820 --> 01:10:39,250
So there's the kind of some of the T, don't read TLDR.

1154
01:10:39,635 --> 01:10:39,815
Yeah.

1155
01:10:40,395 --> 01:10:44,435
And how does it differ from like HODL, HODL or Peach or other

1156
01:10:44,583 --> 01:10:45,463
Haven't used Peach.

1157
01:10:45,503 --> 01:10:48,443
Um, There's things like others use like RoboSats as well.

1158
01:10:48,733 --> 01:10:50,453
So I couldn't tell you the particulars.

1159
01:10:50,533 --> 01:10:54,453
Um, All about that non KIOC stats though, like partly reason

1160
01:10:54,453 --> 01:10:57,333
for mining with Ocean as well.

1161
01:10:57,543 --> 01:11:02,572
So it's for HODL, HODL uh, There's a good chart that's kind of got

1162
01:11:02,572 --> 01:11:05,412
like the, the, the ticks and crosses from them from a perspective.

1163
01:11:05,412 --> 01:11:07,732
Like, I mean, it's using Tor natively.

1164
01:11:08,022 --> 01:11:09,902
What other differentiators would there be?

1165
01:11:10,002 --> 01:11:12,072
It's colored Bitcoin as a way to think about it.

1166
01:11:12,072 --> 01:11:15,942
Like, there's BSQ, there's a DAO, decentralized autonomous exchange.

1167
01:11:16,252 --> 01:11:17,322
So you can kind of engage.

1168
01:11:17,682 --> 01:11:23,132
You know, verify, open source and, uh, yeah, they're trying to make it BISC

1169
01:11:23,262 --> 01:11:25,572
2 is like a more multi protocol thing.

1170
01:11:25,902 --> 01:11:31,312
BISC 1, there is essentially um, I think being close to perfect, but it's, uh,

1171
01:11:31,672 --> 01:11:39,077
a UX, uh, like, you need a reason to it's not as an easy, uh, easy UX kind

1172
01:11:39,077 --> 01:11:42,667
of approach, like, thing, you kind of need incentive to, to understand.

1173
01:11:42,667 --> 01:11:46,204
I'm not a tech guy though, so, anyone, anyone, I think if you've got a real

1174
01:11:46,204 --> 01:11:49,084
reason to, to dive in um, just bisq.

1175
01:11:49,084 --> 01:11:52,418
network is definitely um, it's, it's a good world to be in.

1176
01:11:52,418 --> 01:11:55,441
Yeah, I think just that's essentially the exchange that Satoshi would

1177
01:11:55,441 --> 01:11:58,629
have used More or less peer to peer electronic cash system and it's

1178
01:11:58,629 --> 01:12:00,449
essentially this decentralized exchange.

1179
01:12:00,449 --> 01:12:01,029
That's what it is.

1180
01:13:18,253 --> 01:13:20,155
this conversation has been fantastic.

1181
01:13:20,155 --> 01:13:25,245
And honestly, you've already hit on the main topic that I was interested

1182
01:13:25,245 --> 01:13:30,145
in, which, which is the, the, yeah, shitcoins on Bitcoin whole, whole thing.

1183
01:13:30,565 --> 01:13:36,530
I think you, you hit on, uh, Uh, everything I wanted to ask you about, uh,

1184
01:13:36,530 --> 01:13:41,870
maybe just a little bit of kind of my take on the situation generally, the couple of

1185
01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:47,020
nuances that where I agree with you, but I think there's maybe I've got a slightly

1186
01:13:47,020 --> 01:13:52,790
different perspective on a couple of things, the fee floor situation that I see

1187
01:13:52,790 --> 01:13:58,958
happening with that, The, the one aspect of the, the way that this stuff might get

1188
01:13:58,958 --> 01:14:05,588
priced out, I see number go up being a faster way for these types of transactions

1189
01:14:05,588 --> 01:14:10,868
to get out of the way because it's, it's, it's really a demand problem as

1190
01:14:10,868 --> 01:14:14,298
otter.

1191
01:14:14,298 --> 01:14:20,578
ai These scammers are only making these transactions on the blockchain

1192
01:14:20,578 --> 01:14:24,298
because they expect that someone is going to buy them for more

1193
01:14:24,298 --> 01:14:27,318
Bitcoin than they pay in fees.

1194
01:14:27,318 --> 01:14:27,618
Right?

1195
01:14:27,918 --> 01:14:35,338
So if the fiat price goes way up and Bitcoin, uh, you know, becomes harder

1196
01:14:35,428 --> 01:14:40,788
in, in fiat terms to acquire than, well, okay, you might get a circular economy

1197
01:14:40,788 --> 01:14:43,518
of, of, uh, Bitcoin whales that are just.

1198
01:14:44,018 --> 01:14:48,088
Trading monkey jay pigs between each other, that sounds fun for them, I

1199
01:14:48,088 --> 01:14:52,968
suppose, but it's not going to be a huge pool, so that's the only place where I'm

1200
01:14:52,978 --> 01:14:56,268
maybe a little bit optimistic is that if we get number go ups efficiently,

1201
01:14:56,488 --> 01:15:01,958
maybe there won't be as much demand for this stuff, so first I'll just get your

1202
01:15:01,958 --> 01:15:05,483
take on that and then I've got one more aspect to that that I'd like to touch on.

1203
01:15:06,113 --> 01:15:11,168
Yeah, it's definitely an interesting take and I think From what I've seen,

1204
01:15:11,228 --> 01:15:14,578
so I'd say definitely number go up has like been the last like it's

1205
01:15:14,578 --> 01:15:16,038
been around for a year at least.

1206
01:15:16,348 --> 01:15:18,958
We've seen kind of the bull kind of kick off bull market of sorts.

1207
01:15:19,448 --> 01:15:23,828
And even with that, though, finance recently um, canned.

1208
01:15:24,368 --> 01:15:26,788
NFTs and flagged with runes.

1209
01:15:26,788 --> 01:15:31,958
I'm pretty sure that like anyone who's uh, has got their, like their stuff on their

1210
01:15:31,958 --> 01:15:36,328
network or whatever, like, you know, get it off because it's kind of closed down.

1211
01:15:36,698 --> 01:15:38,888
So yeah, a lot of comments saying, well, why?

1212
01:15:39,258 --> 01:15:42,628
Uh, like as a value prop, like if there's money to be made and Binance is going to

1213
01:15:42,628 --> 01:15:47,148
make it, uh, like it's not from a perhaps ethical perspective or whatever, they've

1214
01:15:47,148 --> 01:15:51,468
done that, which they, you know, or they should have and what the pivot is there.

1215
01:15:51,468 --> 01:15:54,638
And, and, uh, so I think there's definitely, there's been numbers

1216
01:15:54,638 --> 01:15:57,541
probably seen that, like, where there's a number go up from, from a

1217
01:15:57,541 --> 01:16:02,033
number go up from a, uh, you know, fiat perspective in, in, in Bitcoin.

1218
01:16:02,523 --> 01:16:05,353
And then, okay, they're one of the largest, you know, what is

1219
01:16:05,573 --> 01:16:07,693
centralized exchanges that have kind of like taken them off.

1220
01:16:07,693 --> 01:16:12,213
And so whether the buy ends up being that great, or even if you know, like

1221
01:16:12,213 --> 01:16:15,183
if they're kind of pausing, they're regrouping around rooms or like

1222
01:16:15,193 --> 01:16:19,174
whatever it is I think they're doing like finance, like stamps or something

1223
01:16:19,174 --> 01:16:21,094
that is another, another thing.

1224
01:16:21,094 --> 01:16:23,034
And this is the thing, like, you can go, like, there's all

1225
01:16:23,064 --> 01:16:26,004
different types that have like, yes, there's inscriptions or whatever.

1226
01:16:26,004 --> 01:16:28,904
And like it, you can get into them, but it's, I think at a high level.

1227
01:16:29,174 --> 01:16:32,254
As yeah, like using ordinal as an umbrella term of like seeing others

1228
01:16:32,294 --> 01:16:34,984
like talk about like, you've got to be specific and accurate with it.

1229
01:16:34,984 --> 01:16:38,964
But it's like, yeah, I think, uh, not necessarily going

1230
01:16:38,964 --> 01:16:39,974
into the technical ways here.

1231
01:16:39,974 --> 01:16:40,734
Like, don't even do that.

1232
01:16:40,734 --> 01:16:44,734
I think like running things like knots um, as like a different client to core.

1233
01:16:45,064 --> 01:16:48,314
Like helps immensely filter, filter all those out.

1234
01:16:48,604 --> 01:16:51,764
You know, data carrier zero or like whether there's all

1235
01:16:51,774 --> 01:16:53,224
different like angles to it.

1236
01:16:53,534 --> 01:16:56,944
But, uh, yeah, like in the ocean template running that as well.

1237
01:16:56,984 --> 01:16:58,224
So, like with mine is where.

1238
01:16:58,704 --> 01:17:01,384
It's not just at the main pool level like policy, it's also

1239
01:17:01,594 --> 01:17:03,144
at, you know, mining pool.

1240
01:17:03,244 --> 01:17:06,784
Uh, mining is like essentially I'm running, running it and filtering

1241
01:17:06,784 --> 01:17:08,444
it out um, at a block level.

1242
01:17:08,764 --> 01:17:11,084
So, yeah, I don't know, kind of going all places here.

1243
01:17:11,084 --> 01:17:13,784
But yeah, it's interesting in terms of like how that would price people out.

1244
01:17:13,784 --> 01:17:16,309
And maybe I've, Uh, I'd be intrigued.

1245
01:17:16,309 --> 01:17:20,899
And even then, I do think you're right where they're not, and there's some,

1246
01:17:21,179 --> 01:17:24,279
there's some, uh, there's not it is like they're making that exchange.

1247
01:17:24,279 --> 01:17:26,719
And my way to think about it from a Libertarian perspective is like, oh,

1248
01:17:26,719 --> 01:17:30,479
like the A, you know, your exchange A, you're, you're minting it, you're

1249
01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:35,079
selling, you know, there's you know, uh, NFT or like JPEG, whatever.

1250
01:17:35,129 --> 01:17:40,914
And I'm like buying a great, uh, But yeah, it's third party C who is being

1251
01:17:40,914 --> 01:17:46,764
sold on it that is not necessarily clued in like, or, you know, or like they're

1252
01:17:46,764 --> 01:17:51,184
the ones who are getting rug pulled and dunked on and like sold that they can own

1253
01:17:51,584 --> 01:17:57,799
you know, own something in like that's essentially, you know, It's non rivalrous.

1254
01:17:57,979 --> 01:18:01,259
Although they try and like, yeah, NFT scammy by nature.

1255
01:18:01,259 --> 01:18:04,389
They don't understand the, the, the kind of economic problem that's being

1256
01:18:04,389 --> 01:18:06,309
solved is getting rid of scarcity.

1257
01:18:06,569 --> 01:18:10,779
Um, And they're like almost trying to reintroduce it in the digital realm, but

1258
01:18:10,789 --> 01:18:13,059
like, it's not, not essentially rivalrous.

1259
01:18:13,549 --> 01:18:16,379
And it's parasitically living off Bitcoin.

1260
01:18:16,389 --> 01:18:19,659
Like you could, uh, and assets, like that's part of it as well.

1261
01:18:19,669 --> 01:18:24,344
Like as a, You make your own or, you know, Audicoin or whatever, go do that, like,

1262
01:18:24,344 --> 01:18:28,564
why haven't you, where you can control the network and do everything you want, well,

1263
01:18:28,604 --> 01:18:32,224
because you need all the, like, the value proposition and everything of Bitcoin

1264
01:18:32,524 --> 01:18:36,494
and that's like the, the other layer to it as well, where you, the technical

1265
01:18:36,494 --> 01:18:41,444
arguments, where it bloats the UTXO set um, that lives on forever and, and it

1266
01:18:41,584 --> 01:18:45,853
makes it bigger and harder to run nodes um, and which is like the decentralized

1267
01:18:46,263 --> 01:18:49,853
aspect um, which is important to Bitcoin for like no runners and stuff.

1268
01:18:49,853 --> 01:18:53,393
So, yeah, there's definitely yeah, I know I've kind of strayed from your

1269
01:18:53,393 --> 01:18:57,433
original question, but yeah, it's, uh, it's hopefully the, I guess I'd

1270
01:18:57,463 --> 01:19:01,003
be, I want, I'd want to think that that kind of pricing would price

1271
01:19:01,003 --> 01:19:04,993
them out, but with the discount, like, I'm, I'm a little incredulous.

1272
01:19:05,663 --> 01:19:09,713
I make a good point there, but I think that, yeah, the thread that

1273
01:19:09,913 --> 01:19:13,443
I agree with throughout this entire thing is use whatever means to

1274
01:19:13,513 --> 01:19:15,363
mitigate it as possible, definitely.

1275
01:19:15,593 --> 01:19:20,403
There's value in doing that, even if it's, if it's futile, sort of, in

1276
01:19:20,403 --> 01:19:24,093
the short term, that there are going to be other ways to do it, and even

1277
01:19:24,363 --> 01:19:29,503
in the long run, there are ways, miners directly mining this stuff.

1278
01:19:29,523 --> 01:19:34,263
I mean, if you're going to have a miner mine an entire block of crap just for, you

1279
01:19:34,264 --> 01:19:37,808
know, Their own satisfaction basically, and hopefully someone paid them.

1280
01:19:37,808 --> 01:19:40,658
But it seems like at least a couple of these cases that if they've

1281
01:19:40,658 --> 01:19:43,688
been this proof of concept thing and the minors just haven't cared

1282
01:19:43,688 --> 01:19:44,888
about the fees they're losing,

1283
01:19:45,151 --> 01:19:45,891
Well, they do that.

1284
01:19:45,921 --> 01:19:48,868
So they do like there's an element as well of like where

1285
01:19:48,868 --> 01:19:50,028
there's a passive element to it.

1286
01:19:50,068 --> 01:19:52,758
And so when like, okay, yep, mine is getting quote unquote higher

1287
01:19:52,758 --> 01:19:54,448
fees and like, oh, they love that.

1288
01:19:54,678 --> 01:19:58,277
But then when they with it, they're like, essentially, if they are getting filtered

1289
01:19:58,277 --> 01:20:01,277
or they have the, the, the argument was always, well, that would then, you know,

1290
01:20:01,517 --> 01:20:06,097
Send uh, you know, people out of band to like going directly with outside the

1291
01:20:06,097 --> 01:20:08,747
main pool and going to miners directly.

1292
01:20:08,747 --> 01:20:11,727
And it's like, those guys are making those arguments.

1293
01:20:11,737 --> 01:20:12,917
I've already done that.

1294
01:20:12,917 --> 01:20:17,367
Like, they've already jumped the gun or essentially if your case is that.

1295
01:20:18,787 --> 01:20:21,927
Often it's like filters don't work, but then now they've gone ahead

1296
01:20:21,967 --> 01:20:25,167
and it's almost like implicitly said filters are like working.

1297
01:20:25,207 --> 01:20:29,087
So they've gone directly to like Luxor mining, Marathon mining.

1298
01:20:29,437 --> 01:20:33,217
And part of that, like, so they've already started to single, like doing.

1299
01:20:33,562 --> 01:20:37,832
You know, stupid stuff where it's like art on the um, uh, marathon

1300
01:20:37,922 --> 01:20:39,412
art on the, the time chain.

1301
01:20:39,412 --> 01:20:42,832
And from a, an organization perspective, it's like, they signal

1302
01:20:42,832 --> 01:20:44,462
themselves being adversarial minors.

1303
01:20:44,512 --> 01:20:48,152
Then they've actively uh, you know, encouraging a part, like

1304
01:20:48,152 --> 01:20:49,442
attacking the network in a sense.

1305
01:20:49,772 --> 01:20:53,642
And so we can respond to that in the same way that marathon rolled out

1306
01:20:53,842 --> 01:20:56,332
OFAC, like, um, you know, essentially.

1307
01:20:57,262 --> 01:21:00,632
On behalf of the US government, I'm going to regulate what transactions

1308
01:21:00,632 --> 01:21:01,722
get put on the blockchain.

1309
01:21:01,952 --> 01:21:06,812
And the reaction from Bitcoiners was like, yeah, you know, go

1310
01:21:06,812 --> 01:21:07,742
fuck yourself more or less.

1311
01:21:07,742 --> 01:21:11,822
But like the social pressure, the social argument um, case against,

1312
01:21:11,822 --> 01:21:12,872
and then they walked it back.

1313
01:21:13,192 --> 01:21:15,202
And it's like, well, if, if, you know, all they really care

1314
01:21:15,202 --> 01:21:17,392
about is money short term.

1315
01:21:17,452 --> 01:21:19,322
And that's like the, the narrative.

1316
01:21:19,617 --> 01:21:22,887
And the scammers and spammers for mine is like, well, these guys overtly

1317
01:21:23,147 --> 01:21:25,587
walk back that to short term angle.

1318
01:21:25,587 --> 01:21:29,677
And it's like, also at some point is long, like, are you

1319
01:21:29,677 --> 01:21:30,627
going to kill the golden ghost?

1320
01:21:30,817 --> 01:21:34,877
Like, that's the risk of like, say, Bitcoin is, and the long term outcome.

1321
01:21:35,242 --> 01:21:40,102
And you're, you know, taking little, you know, extra bits now, but are

1322
01:21:40,102 --> 01:21:41,122
you shooting yourself in the foot?

1323
01:21:41,122 --> 01:21:42,572
Are you, like, got a gun to the head of the golden goose?

1324
01:21:43,182 --> 01:21:47,162
You're risking, like, blowing his brains out, like, you know, to get graphic here.

1325
01:21:47,472 --> 01:21:52,312
I think there's, there's a risk of that and we should be reacting as Bitcoin is.

1326
01:21:52,312 --> 01:21:57,159
It's not, to these threats and overt attacks, more or less in a way that,

1327
01:21:57,454 --> 01:22:02,174
He's me doing something directly myself in terms of like mining with ocean, you

1328
01:22:02,174 --> 01:22:05,854
know, there's, there's not supporting that at a different kind of a client

1329
01:22:05,904 --> 01:22:10,104
making these cases like socially trying to help education, education, like for

1330
01:22:10,134 --> 01:22:14,794
economics wise but yeah, there's, there's definitely things that can be done and

1331
01:22:14,844 --> 01:22:17,914
we just kind of, I think got to, got to understand that and kind of wake up.

1332
01:22:17,974 --> 01:22:20,944
And I think a few people are awake, starting to wake up um, or definitely

1333
01:22:20,944 --> 01:22:22,204
that's the trend that I've been seeing.

1334
01:22:22,739 --> 01:22:27,779
Yeah, it's like you're willing to kill the golden goose for a kinder egg, like one

1335
01:22:27,779 --> 01:22:29,589
of those chocolate eggs with a toy in it.

1336
01:22:29,899 --> 01:22:31,499
That's basically what they're doing.

1337
01:22:31,859 --> 01:22:37,139
So, so the, yeah, you said something really great, Luke, uh, about

1338
01:22:37,199 --> 01:22:40,439
the problem being on the demand side and not on the supply side.

1339
01:22:40,784 --> 01:22:44,224
So it's sort of like the war on drugs and why that isn't working because you

1340
01:22:44,224 --> 01:22:46,144
can't really fight the supply side.

1341
01:22:46,154 --> 01:22:50,174
You need to fight the demand side and you do that by educating people.

1342
01:22:50,584 --> 01:22:55,304
So the way I see these, like, like you said, uh, NFTs are scammy in nature.

1343
01:22:55,364 --> 01:22:58,324
Like the things, the thing people don't get that this

1344
01:22:58,324 --> 01:23:01,024
is an open public blockchain.

1345
01:23:01,024 --> 01:23:04,494
I hate the word because it implies that there are more than one.

1346
01:23:04,859 --> 01:23:08,809
But that means that everyone can see everything that's going on here.

1347
01:23:08,809 --> 01:23:09,739
That's all the point.

1348
01:23:10,109 --> 01:23:14,769
So owning an NFT is sort of akin to owning a star in the Andromeda galaxy.

1349
01:23:15,179 --> 01:23:19,539
You can own it on paper, maybe, but you can't do anything with it.

1350
01:23:19,619 --> 01:23:21,309
Everyone else can see it too.

1351
01:23:21,309 --> 01:23:23,799
Everyone else can right click it and download it.

1352
01:23:23,809 --> 01:23:25,939
There's like, and this goes for these.

1353
01:23:26,609 --> 01:23:27,889
Idiot tokens as well.

1354
01:23:27,889 --> 01:23:29,339
It's just arbitrary data.

1355
01:23:29,349 --> 01:23:30,809
There's nothing scarce about them.

1356
01:23:30,819 --> 01:23:35,689
Like the, the scarcity is in the satoshi and it's not in anything else.

1357
01:23:35,749 --> 01:23:38,899
And that's what people need to wrap their heads around if they don't want

1358
01:23:38,899 --> 01:23:45,299
to be, you know, scammed and, and uh, Yeah, have all their money removed.

1359
01:23:45,589 --> 01:23:53,139
So, my last question is, is, uh, concisely, like, as possible, uh, based

1360
01:23:53,139 --> 01:23:58,799
on this conversation, uh, what would be the way you would explain why Bitcoin

1361
01:23:59,864 --> 01:24:06,134
Bitcoin is a monetary network, or sorry to rephrase this because I think I

1362
01:24:06,214 --> 01:24:10,784
mixed this up in my head with another thing, the reason why it's good that

1363
01:24:10,784 --> 01:24:14,434
Bitcoin exists as a monetary network.

1364
01:24:15,634 --> 01:24:16,044
That's it.

1365
01:24:16,934 --> 01:24:17,444
Why it exists.

1366
01:24:17,454 --> 01:24:17,754
Yeah.

1367
01:24:17,804 --> 01:24:19,864
I think that it's more hidden.

1368
01:24:19,874 --> 01:24:22,984
So like, if you look at money historically, like the, I

1369
01:24:22,984 --> 01:24:25,724
think the monetary properties of being more in your face.

1370
01:24:25,934 --> 01:24:32,251
And verse now where, and the, the network is kind of more hidden,

1371
01:24:32,311 --> 01:24:35,821
like exchange, voluntary, you can't like necessarily see it.

1372
01:24:36,181 --> 01:24:39,351
You know, people see people exchanging, but it's like, it's, it's gone after that,

1373
01:24:39,351 --> 01:24:44,321
where it's flipped with Bitcoin, where it's actually the network and itself,

1374
01:24:44,331 --> 01:24:45,831
the peer to peer electronic cash system.

1375
01:24:46,271 --> 01:24:47,251
Is more in your face.

1376
01:24:47,671 --> 01:24:51,611
So like the vast majority, I think of the code is actually geared towards

1377
01:24:51,611 --> 01:24:55,151
like sending and receiving and like cryptography and you know, timestamping

1378
01:24:56,121 --> 01:25:01,571
and, uh, you know, hashing and a variety of all that to help facilitate.

1379
01:25:02,231 --> 01:25:05,311
The asset that is what it is, where it's like hard capped and

1380
01:25:05,511 --> 01:25:06,981
a rival, a residual commodity.

1381
01:25:07,331 --> 01:25:13,251
And so, like, yeah, I think it's all about essentially the peer to peer element.

1382
01:25:13,251 --> 01:25:14,731
It's like, why is it so good?

1383
01:25:14,731 --> 01:25:19,691
Well, it removes the ability, as per Satoshi, like the trust of third parties.

1384
01:25:20,446 --> 01:25:24,406
It's like, and I was in that Bitcoin Maximals talk recently, it was like,

1385
01:25:24,646 --> 01:25:27,736
the executive summary was you know, what's, what's part of the problem.

1386
01:25:27,736 --> 01:25:32,596
And like, you can talk about endlessly, like the status quo, you know, monopoly

1387
01:25:32,616 --> 01:25:36,926
of, you know, the state exists and then um, you know, central banking, fiat

1388
01:25:36,926 --> 01:25:39,576
money, like legal tender laws all that.

1389
01:25:39,576 --> 01:25:40,956
And then but what is that?

1390
01:25:41,246 --> 01:25:45,396
And it's like dumbed down to a non Austrian perspective.

1391
01:25:45,396 --> 01:25:47,106
It's like trusted third parties.

1392
01:25:47,806 --> 01:25:52,016
And so like Bitcoin solves a problem for trusted third parties and the whole

1393
01:25:52,016 --> 01:25:56,746
network is all about ensuring that and facilitating that and helping you send and

1394
01:25:56,746 --> 01:26:00,706
receive like from a system perspective, like Konrad Graf talks about really

1395
01:26:00,706 --> 01:26:04,111
well is where it's, you've got like The unit perspective and as a system

1396
01:26:04,111 --> 01:26:08,891
perspective, you've got Bitcoin like the unit where the error for a lot of

1397
01:26:08,891 --> 01:26:12,341
Austrians and Peter Schiff in particular, if we're going to categorize it, is

1398
01:26:12,341 --> 01:26:14,651
like, they look at the unit in isolation.

1399
01:26:14,711 --> 01:26:18,571
So they're like, oh, the telephone, like, what's the point of this telephone?

1400
01:26:18,571 --> 01:26:20,661
But it's like not connected to the network.

1401
01:26:21,191 --> 01:26:24,191
So, like, there's no point of a telephone, you can't call anyone and

1402
01:26:24,241 --> 01:26:25,831
send it or do anything with it, right?

1403
01:26:26,171 --> 01:26:30,171
So, the value proposition is connected to the, being able to make those

1404
01:26:30,201 --> 01:26:33,611
calls, send that money, receive it it's decentralized, permissionless

1405
01:26:34,041 --> 01:26:36,801
and yeah, so, like, all, all, all those things we often hear from others

1406
01:26:36,801 --> 01:26:39,331
is, is why I think it's So valuable.

1407
01:26:39,426 --> 01:26:43,656
Yeah, I've heard a critique that some people say that Bitcoin is not peer to

1408
01:26:43,656 --> 01:26:50,256
peer because it has to go via the miners and like via trusted third parties.

1409
01:26:50,256 --> 01:26:54,206
But the whole point is that you don't trust these third parties.

1410
01:26:54,276 --> 01:26:57,486
You verify that what they're doing is according to the rules.

1411
01:26:57,486 --> 01:26:58,936
And there's a crucial difference.

1412
01:26:58,966 --> 01:27:02,826
Like that's not a, it is a third party, but it's not a trusted one.

1413
01:27:03,472 --> 01:27:03,792
right.

1414
01:27:03,822 --> 01:27:07,262
And, but partly you could, you could say they might be corrected for like,

1415
01:27:07,302 --> 01:27:08,442
unless they're mining with ocean.

1416
01:27:08,872 --> 01:27:13,122
So with tides protocols at the moment, what I've been seeing, like, indirectly

1417
01:27:13,122 --> 01:27:18,247
is that for a lot of the mining pools, I think grass, uh, uh, Grass fed Bitcoin

1418
01:27:18,247 --> 01:27:21,917
Mechanic kind of talks about how like there's like almost two miners and,

1419
01:27:22,367 --> 01:27:29,057
uh, but where from, uh, verifying the, the miner or the hasher, like verifying

1420
01:27:29,057 --> 01:27:32,867
the part of the pool and then verifying the, the funds that they should be

1421
01:27:32,867 --> 01:27:36,447
getting or the fees, like, if the other types of pools in the market, they

1422
01:27:36,447 --> 01:27:39,827
take out of band transactions, like, do the miners then see that or not?

1423
01:27:40,167 --> 01:27:43,802
Um, How do you know that miners are um, The pools aren't clipping they,

1424
01:27:43,812 --> 01:27:46,962
they like clipping some, uh, funds, essentially like clipping coins, like

1425
01:27:46,962 --> 01:27:49,092
from a trusted third party historically.

1426
01:27:49,092 --> 01:27:52,568
And so with Ocean, though, it's different where essentially, like those coin, the

1427
01:27:52,568 --> 01:27:55,468
coin, you get part of the payout, like the ties, like you're part of the coinbase

1428
01:27:55,498 --> 01:28:00,488
transaction from them when they hit a block and there's like with Strat V2, I

1429
01:28:00,488 --> 01:28:04,528
think they're moving like already yet or moving towards, but you can verify Like

1430
01:28:04,558 --> 01:28:09,858
I've got, you know, with the address with them that the funds then get sent to and

1431
01:28:09,858 --> 01:28:12,888
you can like, yeah, essentially verify that there's no trust, there's not as

1432
01:28:12,888 --> 01:28:17,028
much no trust or no trust enough, enough trust compared to all the other pools.

1433
01:28:17,208 --> 01:28:22,574
So it is definitely um, Yeah, like that's the way I think that that's why Jack kind

1434
01:28:22,574 --> 01:28:28,044
of helped, I think, FundOcean or whatnot was like trying to decentralize mining

1435
01:28:28,334 --> 01:28:32,324
or like some of those attack factors or risk factors there but then even recently

1436
01:28:32,324 --> 01:28:37,609
saying it's like out of, like, All the, the current mining pools, there's, it's

1437
01:28:37,609 --> 01:28:43,179
like 41 percent or something like that of all them ascending to the same custodian.

1438
01:28:43,249 --> 01:28:47,559
So 41 percent of current hash is like sending to one custodian essentially.

1439
01:28:47,559 --> 01:28:51,479
So like as a centralized piece, that's also worrying.

1440
01:28:51,579 --> 01:28:54,494
But yeah, uh, It's, uh, Submarine with Ocean.

1441
01:28:55,920 --> 01:28:56,140
Yeah.

1442
01:28:56,140 --> 01:28:56,380
Yeah.

1443
01:28:56,380 --> 01:29:01,400
Or, uh, I, I heard from that uh, conference in Dubai a couple of months

1444
01:29:01,400 --> 01:29:04,380
back that there, I don't remember the name of the pool, but there is

1445
01:29:04,380 --> 01:29:07,870
another pool coming up that doing the same thing basically as ocean.

1446
01:29:08,130 --> 01:29:11,150
So there are, it's getting even more decentralized.

1447
01:29:11,160 --> 01:29:15,610
Like there are some alternatives that, that will, other

1448
01:29:15,610 --> 01:29:17,380
transparent pools are coming.

1449
01:29:17,440 --> 01:29:21,950
And, uh, I think that that development is very welcome.

1450
01:29:22,030 --> 01:29:23,830
Like that's, that's how we need to do this.

1451
01:29:24,885 --> 01:29:27,255
If we want to bring it full circle, like, I think it was a point that

1452
01:29:27,255 --> 01:29:31,405
I wanted to talk about was, it was like, methodological dualism.

1453
01:29:31,925 --> 01:29:36,935
So going back to that in this talk where we kind of, we kind of started we, we

1454
01:29:36,935 --> 01:29:39,755
actually embody methodological dualism.

1455
01:29:39,785 --> 01:29:41,555
So we are subjects.

1456
01:29:42,235 --> 01:29:47,215
Where subjects slash uh, active subjects slash objects by nature,

1457
01:29:47,535 --> 01:29:49,785
so we can't reduce it to either or.

1458
01:29:49,785 --> 01:29:53,705
So like, we're not just objects like you know, rocks and stones.

1459
01:29:54,015 --> 01:29:58,005
And we're not just subjects only where like a, a mind and, and you

1460
01:29:58,005 --> 01:30:01,035
know, detached from being an object and having a body like a person.

1461
01:30:01,035 --> 01:30:03,645
So humans, we are defined by being yep.

1462
01:30:03,675 --> 01:30:07,635
Subjects like the self, uh, and our bodies and our objects.

1463
01:30:07,935 --> 01:30:09,975
So yeah, we're subjects by, objects by nature.

1464
01:30:10,095 --> 01:30:11,505
That dualism is present.

1465
01:30:11,975 --> 01:30:14,605
We are essentially, we embody it, literally embody it.

1466
01:30:14,635 --> 01:30:19,945
So like the, the, the social, the empiricists are trying to essentially

1467
01:30:20,215 --> 01:30:25,685
argue that that, that, that a methodological approach isn't valid when

1468
01:30:25,685 --> 01:30:27,355
they literally embody it themselves.

1469
01:30:28,211 --> 01:30:34,021
Yeah, that's, uh, back to re and this ties into Bitcoin mining as well, like

1470
01:30:34,031 --> 01:30:38,801
it's, it's, uh, yeah, the energy is there and it's, uh, needed to secure

1471
01:30:38,801 --> 01:30:43,261
the network, but if we don't act in a certain way that all that energy is

1472
01:30:43,261 --> 01:30:45,951
wasted and, uh, it was for nothing.

1473
01:30:46,373 --> 01:30:50,463
Hey, I think this is a fantastic place to, uh, to leave this one,

1474
01:30:50,583 --> 01:30:53,093
uh, been a great discussion.

1475
01:30:53,513 --> 01:30:59,193
Uh, I, I would love to do this, uh, more often, uh, again and more often, but,

1476
01:30:59,273 --> 01:31:01,453
uh, for now, I think this has been great.

1477
01:31:01,653 --> 01:31:03,883
I touched on a lot of key points.

1478
01:31:04,163 --> 01:31:09,503
So, uh, Conza, where would you like to direct our listeners and viewers to, to

1479
01:31:09,503 --> 01:31:13,793
find out more about you and, uh, things you'd like to direct them towards?

1480
01:31:14,158 --> 01:31:14,818
Twitter.

1481
01:31:15,438 --> 01:31:15,698
Yeah.

1482
01:31:15,698 --> 01:31:18,078
Conza, C O N Z A is probably easy enough.

1483
01:31:18,178 --> 01:31:19,218
Uh, where else?

1484
01:31:19,598 --> 01:31:24,068
I mean, hit up like the Mises Institute for anything, everything.

1485
01:31:24,078 --> 01:31:26,288
Free books, podcasts, all of that.

1486
01:31:26,688 --> 01:31:28,763
Yeah, if you're from Australia, mises.

1487
01:31:28,763 --> 01:31:30,338
org, M I S E S.

1488
01:31:30,338 --> 01:31:30,518
org.

1489
01:31:30,518 --> 01:31:30,638
au.

1490
01:31:30,638 --> 01:31:34,198
Um, It's got like the 50 plus lectures.

1491
01:31:34,328 --> 01:31:34,438
Yeah.

1492
01:31:34,638 --> 01:31:39,558
Hit up Konrad Graf's Bitcoin overview and Bitcoin kind of technical and

1493
01:31:39,558 --> 01:31:44,158
social aspects are like recorded in 2013 seminar down in Sydney.

1494
01:31:44,418 --> 01:31:49,088
Yeah, read anything and everything from Konrad Graf is my like appeal

1495
01:31:49,088 --> 01:31:54,075
to and obviously not appeal to him in terms of um, it just.

1496
01:31:55,075 --> 01:31:55,575
What's the summary?

1497
01:31:55,575 --> 01:32:00,395
It's like, it takes out a lot of the technical wording, but like simplifies it.

1498
01:32:00,435 --> 01:32:03,705
But it's super accurate and maintain, like, I'm a big sucker for accuracy.

1499
01:32:04,045 --> 01:32:08,685
And partly it's the worst thing for a movement is to not be skillfully

1500
01:32:08,685 --> 01:32:10,685
attacked, but like ineptly defended.

1501
01:32:10,695 --> 01:32:11,855
It's like a Bastiac quote.

1502
01:32:12,195 --> 01:32:15,895
So I've kind of taken that to heart and that's kind of, I guess, part of the

1503
01:32:15,895 --> 01:32:19,675
essence of why I'm fairly hypercritical, like of myself, but of others when

1504
01:32:19,715 --> 01:32:22,795
certain narratives are out there that aren't necessarily, you know, Accurate,

1505
01:32:22,845 --> 01:32:28,125
because it's not, honestly, that's the worst thing for us as a movement not

1506
01:32:28,165 --> 01:32:34,305
to be attacked by like those that are um, yeah, less done, so, uh, yeah, uh,

1507
01:32:34,895 --> 01:32:40,045
really just that yeah, uh, I'm very happy to help anyone with any guidelines for

1508
01:32:40,235 --> 01:32:43,775
things you're interested, critiquing stuff what things get sent my way, and

1509
01:32:43,775 --> 01:32:45,525
always happy to, you know, Happy to help

1510
01:32:45,928 --> 01:32:46,258
Yeah.

1511
01:32:46,288 --> 01:32:49,428
Uh, just, just a, a quick add on there.

1512
01:32:49,458 --> 01:32:53,628
You, you mentioned Bitcoin alive a couple of times, so if you're in Australia

1513
01:32:53,628 --> 01:32:57,348
and or if you have the ability to go to Australia, this is a fantastic conference.

1514
01:32:57,353 --> 01:33:01,168
I, I uh, attended it last year and that's where I met you.

1515
01:33:01,708 --> 01:33:04,828
Uh, the only time I met you in real life, it was a, a delightful

1516
01:33:04,828 --> 01:33:07,338
evening, uh, over a couple of points.

1517
01:33:07,728 --> 01:33:12,408
And, uh, yeah, I, I take it that Bitcoin Alive was just as amazing

1518
01:33:12,408 --> 01:33:13,729
this year as last year, right?

1519
01:33:14,418 --> 01:33:15,558
missed you, but Yes.

1520
01:33:15,618 --> 01:33:16,068
Yes.

1521
01:33:16,098 --> 01:33:18,618
It, uh, it's, uh, yeah, it was great.

1522
01:33:18,678 --> 01:33:19,998
It's a fantastic event.

1523
01:33:19,998 --> 01:33:24,688
Bitcoin only yeah, it's, uh, it's a key and you probably just, I guess,

1524
01:33:24,868 --> 01:33:29,208
yeah, form on Twitter so I can share, showcase the longer form version of that.

1525
01:33:29,308 --> 01:33:32,288
Bitcoin max in one lesson talk I've done recently, which

1526
01:33:32,288 --> 01:33:34,108
is trying to cover off like.

1527
01:33:34,468 --> 01:33:37,908
Essentially, all the things that the scammers, spammers, and pre

1528
01:33:37,908 --> 01:33:39,828
coiners and stuff, you know, should coiners need to know.

1529
01:33:40,248 --> 01:33:40,825
I've

1530
01:33:40,865 --> 01:33:46,235
yeah, by the way, any chance of us seeing you in an international conference anytime

1531
01:33:46,235 --> 01:33:48,665
soon like one of the European ones?

1532
01:33:50,595 --> 01:33:54,935
been to Hans Property and Freedom Society conference, like, way back

1533
01:33:54,935 --> 01:34:00,425
in 2014, like, potentially on board or anything around there then but no

1534
01:34:00,445 --> 01:34:01,885
with, like, Young Wine at the moment.

1535
01:34:02,185 --> 01:34:05,855
We'll, we'll say, well, hey, that's maybe an occasion to bring them all.

1536
01:34:05,925 --> 01:34:07,675
So, um, bring them all over.

1537
01:34:07,675 --> 01:34:10,305
So possibly I won't write anything off.

1538
01:34:10,575 --> 01:34:14,235
Likely to be in the States though for, for work early Jan.

1539
01:34:14,345 --> 01:34:17,855
And so might have a chance to, to kind of be around there.

1540
01:34:17,855 --> 01:34:19,505
So the other side of the world.

1541
01:34:19,555 --> 01:34:21,935
But yeah, Europe is great as well.

1542
01:34:22,388 --> 01:34:23,028
Excellent.

1543
01:34:23,108 --> 01:34:27,388
And if Konrad or Hans Hermann or anyone else is listening to this, you're of

1544
01:34:27,428 --> 01:34:29,538
course more than welcome to the show.

1545
01:34:29,538 --> 01:34:35,198
Yeah, so go read Economic Science, the Austrian Method.

1546
01:34:35,998 --> 01:34:37,358
Go listen to Konrad Graf.

1547
01:34:37,358 --> 01:34:42,668
I've read Started to deep dive into that guy and as you say, amazing stuff.

1548
01:34:43,118 --> 01:34:47,958
And, uh, don't forget to like share and subscribe and, uh, brush your

1549
01:34:47,958 --> 01:34:51,698
damn teeth and click the bell and Konsa, this has been excellent.

1550
01:34:51,778 --> 01:34:52,698
Thank you very much.

1551
01:34:53,108 --> 01:34:53,878
no, I appreciate it.

1552
01:34:53,878 --> 01:34:54,208
Thanks.

1553
01:34:54,218 --> 01:34:54,798
Thanks guys.

1554
01:34:55,156 --> 01:34:55,626
Thank you.

1555
01:34:55,816 --> 01:34:57,296
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

1556
01:34:57,596 --> 01:34:58,426
Thanks for listening.