The Bitcoin Privacy Revolution with Max Hillebrand - FFS #69

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Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show with Knut Svanholm

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and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn.

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And we're here with our good friend, Max Hillebrand, CEO of ZK Snacks, the

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maker of WasabiWallet or Custodian or whatever you want to call it.

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And this is the second time on the pod.

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So Max, welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show.

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Well, hello, Luke.

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Hello, Knut.

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And hello and welcome to all the audience.

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I'm looking forward to this fascinating conversation about

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fascinating topics, I'm sure.

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Yeah.

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How do you feel when Luke calls you a custodian?

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Is that, uh, do you take that as a compliment or as an insult?

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Ah, that's, uh, I guess a bit of both, you know, uh, it's, uh, good to be custodian.

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I think, uh, we have many things to, to take good care of.

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And it's not just about other people's money and it's, uh, it's about,

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uh, other people's tools as well.

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Uh, so I think that, uh, is quite fitting in that regard.

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Yes.

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Uh, other people's tools.

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Um, where do we go with that, Luke?

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the reason I said, the reason I said custodian though, right, is because

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Wasabi is actually, it's, it's open source and, and anyone can do whatever with

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it, run their own instance and all this.

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So it's, it's just more the emphasis on that, uh, you know, ZK Snacks

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and, and what you're doing with it, uh, you're, you're spearheading the

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development of Wasabi Wallet, right?

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That's the, one of the things ZK Snacks does.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And I think it's, it's one of the big strengths of Wasabi Wallet

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to have a company behind it, uh, uh, to fund the development

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and, and really push it forward.

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I guess Bitcoin Core is like the only.

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Successful, open source, non commercial software project that

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has a plethora of development.

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But if you look at any other project, many of them are just hobby projects

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with one or two guys working on it.

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That's not necessarily a bad thing.

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I mean, look at Electrum Wallet.

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It basically has Thomas doing...

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All of the work for more than almost 15 years now, and still, it's an incredibly

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stable piece of software, very, very well reviewed and very well tested and it

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just works and has a bunch of features.

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And so it's definitely possible, but.

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I mean, when, like, I really got to look closer into development, uh, for these

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last couple years of contributing to Wasabi and, and damn, it's difficult.

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Like, there's so many little nuances that have to be taken care of.

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So many, so many bugs, so many quirks, so many things that could be better.

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Uh, and to have a, a large team working on it and knowing that the team will

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stick around for some time, uh, so that you can start long term planning.

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That's, that's really quite important.

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Um, so, it would be awesome if every free software project somehow finds its niche

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in the development of a business model.

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Uh, I think that that would be very, valuable and meaningful.

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It might be difficult to do, and it's not that easy to convince people to

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give over their magic internet money.

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but I think, uh, we can write software that's compelling

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enough for people to do that.

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Uh, and that's, I think, one of, uh, Wasabi's greatest success and to, to spawn

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a business model that, that sustains, not just the owners of the company,

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but, but especially the contributors to the free and open source software.

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mempool.

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space and btcpayserver are similar, right?

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Uh, so, so how do they work?

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How much do you know about that?

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Yeah, neither of them have a business model.

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Right.

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BTC pay server has a non for profit foundation behind it,

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um, to do some of the paperwork.

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And unfortunately, that's, that's something almost necessitating,

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uh, in the modern world to have a legal entity to, you know, write

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invoices and pay them, et cetera.

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Um, and mempool.

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space.

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They might actually also be an entity in Japan.

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I'm not exactly sure.

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And they are just now starting their first products or offerings.

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Specifically the fee rate accelerator that you can bribe

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miners to include a transaction.

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Like without using the Bitcoin network to do so with things like child pays

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per parent or replaced by fee for some technical reasons that sometimes

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not, not easy or even possible to do.

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So mempool.

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space is trying to venture into a business model where, where they get paid to bribe

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the miners to include their transactions.

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Um, and, uh, yeah, I think that's.

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It's good that these projects are looking for some business models.

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but yeah, so far, I think mempool.

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space was mainly worked on by The founders and some contributors

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who just love the project and they maybe have gotten some grants or

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donations, but probably not that much.

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I think they have a lot of grants and donations.

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I mean, there's, uh, there's a ton of companies and individuals on their

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supporters page or sponsors page.

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Yeah, that's true.

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mempool.

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space actually did quite well with that.

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You're right.

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And they also offer services to be added.

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Like, for example, Foundry paid, I think, a decent amount to get

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the mining dashboard included, so they're paying for features to

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be added to the software project.

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I think that's a pretty good way of funding development, like, if

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you would like to see it improved.

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Pay for it.

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And that's a pretty reasonable method, I think.

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And then, yeah, a bunch of individual donators.

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I think that's, again, the big strength of free and open source software.

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People are so enthusiastic about it.

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They really want to...

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Just make sure that the project survives and contributes and when

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they get the shout out on the website, I guess that's for many

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people enough to toss over some sats.

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But interestingly, if I remember that correctly, mempool.

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space stopped that donation website.

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So that you can no longer get your profile picture on the

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website if you donate some sats.

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I'm not exactly sure why they stopped that offering, but yeah,

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yeah.

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Do you know how Monty Python's Life of Brian was funded?

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they tried to raise funds for it here and there.

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Uh, they had this script, uh, and all of a sudden George Harrison

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of the Beatles funds the entire thing out of his own pocket.

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And they ask him like, well, you didn't have to do this, why?

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And he said, I want to see the movie.

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And that was the only reason.

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So if you want, if you want to see something in the world and you're

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sitting on a bunch of cash, that is always an option, you can fund things.

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One other example in this space is probably Jack Dorsey with Nostr.

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And he has put a lot of money on the line to fund projects

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and conferences and individuals.

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to keep going.

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And I think he does it for like a lot of ideological reasons.

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Uh, I think he thinks that there's, uh, that he made some mistakes

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with, with adding venture capital to Twitter and that that fundamentally

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changed the mission of the project and, and the product after all.

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Uh, and he doesn't want to make the same mistakes again.

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And so he's very vocal about telling people to not take on venture capital

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funding for, for their Nostr projects.

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And instead just try to do it out of grants and donations.

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Um, uh, so I guess we'll see how that goes, uh, right?

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If, uh, if grants and donations are something that are long term sustainable,

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um, we had those thoughts with Wasabi at the beginning too, like, should we just

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do it based off donations and grants?

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Um, and, well, I.

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I doubt that we could have gotten that sustainable and long term of a revenue

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model out of this, compared to providing a service where the users pay for it.

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I think ultimately the users are the ones who get the most benefit

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of the software being written.

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They are the ones watching the movie.

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And so to some extent, you know, they are willing to pay for it.

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So, so, so a lot of touch points here.

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So, so I'll try to condense them into a question.

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Like, to a layman, bribing the miners probably sounds a bit weird and, you

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know, random donations that sounds a bit like foreign aid or something,

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which is basically taking money from poor people in rich countries and

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giving it to, to rich people in poor countries, which, which, which is not

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optimal the same with like this, all this structure of nonprofits and for

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profits, which are all very fiat things.

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So, so how can, how does Bitcoin change?

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And so funding incentives, like when you give a large donation to someone, aren't

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you like messing with the market dynamics in a, in a way, uh, so that people don't

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learn their lesson and don't build a business in a, in a sustainable way?

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Well, you know, profit is about producing more than you consume.

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And so ultimately, we all really have to be profitable.

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If you're not profitable, it's like a medical patient bleeding, and you should

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do everything that you can to stop the bleeding as fast as fucking possible.

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And so, um, being profitable is very essential.

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Um, but And profit is basically revenue minus expenses.

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Expenses are obvious.

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We have to pay the developers to build the stuff.

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Developers got to eat too.

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And there might be some other costs, for example, running a server.

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I'm sure that the mempool.

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space server infrastructure is quite expensive.

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They don't just run one full node, they run many full nodes

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in many different locations.

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And that adds up, right?

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So, these are the costs that have to be paid.

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And then, if you keep paying a bunch of these server costs and development

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costs, how do you know that where you're spending the money on is worthwhile?

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If it's actually a benefit for...

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Humanity, let's say, uh, and, and the way to find that out is if someone pays

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you to continue doing this, and if nobody pays you to continue doing that, then

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why are you wasting your time and the precious capital that we have on doing

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something that literally nobody wants?

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but then who pays for it?

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I guess it's not even that important.

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I mean, as long as someone pays for it voluntarily, I guess that is proven enough

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that there is some certain demand for it.

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And even if it's just one single rich guy who funds a bunch of it,

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that's probably good enough, right?

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If that person, for whatever reason, sees that.

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There's enough value in the project to keep it going.

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Um, and arguably, it is better if multiple people pay for it, right?

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Because then if it's just one guy financing everything, well, maybe he's

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delusional and, and not really that important, for that project to continue.

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But just because of his weird pipe dream and his deep pockets, he

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can keep a project going for much longer than, than, uh, necessary.

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But if, if a vast.

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If people are paying for a service, then the likelihood of it just being

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a pipe dream is, I guess, rather low.

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And if many people want that service so much that they are willing to pay for

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it, I guess that is a strong indication of it being a useful service after all.

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And ultimately then, The people who are using the service, if they are

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the ones paying for it, then we have a really nice alignment of incentives

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and someone wants the service.

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Someone is actively using the service and they love it so much

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that they're willing to hand over some money in exchange for it.

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And if that's a large number, that seems to me that then the

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project is on the right track.

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That we're spending and we're having costs, but they are appreciated.

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By by a lot of people.

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and I guess then that's, that's what Bitcoin, well enables.

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Um, maybe another way of looking at this is that, uh, with, with

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Bitcoin, we've finally figured out programmable money, right?

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Where, we can write piece of code, some software and money transfers, right?

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That's, pretty magical.

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the cypherpunks have been trying to do this for many decades, and

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failed many, many times because it's a really fucking difficult problem.

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But, but now with Bitcoin, We can literally write code to move

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money and, that means that we can embed the money transfer into the

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softwares that we are writing.

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and Bitcoin wallets are, I guess, the first pioneering

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software that, does that, right?

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Where, we write the codes to move money.

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And that means we can write a code to move money from the end user

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to the service provider, right?

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To the person or developers who are writing that software.

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And I think that's.

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super ingenious, and we can now write code to automate transfer of value

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from the user to the developers.

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And that means that if there are developers, sorry, if there are users,

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they automatically and by default will send money to the developers.

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Um, and, and that's great because that means we can decrease the

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mental transaction cost of that.

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Value transfer from users to producers, um, and that, yeah, that, that,

239
00:13:37,162 --> 00:13:41,592
that's incredibly valuable, because if something is expensive and difficult

240
00:13:41,612 --> 00:13:44,012
and slow, then it won't be done.

241
00:13:44,852 --> 00:13:49,512
Sure, you could have always, you know, send cash per mail to the people

242
00:13:49,532 --> 00:13:53,896
who write software or services for you, but that's just super clumsy

243
00:13:53,896 --> 00:13:57,266
and you might do it once, but you're definitely not going to do it every day.

244
00:13:57,706 --> 00:13:58,406
Um, but...

245
00:13:59,646 --> 00:14:05,396
With software, it being totally automated, you can send a small amount of value to

246
00:14:05,396 --> 00:14:09,976
the creators of a service whenever you use it and with every minute that you're

247
00:14:09,986 --> 00:14:14,286
using it, probably just like people are paying for this podcast and the value for

248
00:14:14,296 --> 00:14:18,896
value model literally every minute that they're listening to this because there is

249
00:14:18,896 --> 00:14:24,931
a value in the information being provided, and we've made it easy and automated

250
00:14:25,151 --> 00:14:27,251
to send value back to the creators.

251
00:14:27,696 --> 00:14:31,996
That software automation, that decreases in complexity, that decreases in mental

252
00:14:31,996 --> 00:14:34,646
transaction cost is extremely key.

253
00:14:34,646 --> 00:14:39,356
It's super important, um, again, because it allows to, to just automate it and,

254
00:14:39,426 --> 00:14:41,756
and, uh, provide value to the producers.

255
00:14:42,304 --> 00:14:47,244
Yeah, that's, this is sort of why I think that microtransactions are only

256
00:14:47,244 --> 00:14:54,424
valuable if they're, if the user doesn't have to make a deliberate choice every

257
00:14:54,424 --> 00:14:56,124
time he makes a microtransaction.

258
00:14:56,134 --> 00:14:58,804
They, they need to be automated to be valuable.

259
00:14:58,804 --> 00:15:03,954
Otherwise the, the real cost to the user is, is larger than just the

260
00:15:04,014 --> 00:15:08,424
sats because he also needs to put the effort into deciding whether

261
00:15:08,424 --> 00:15:10,034
or not to make the transaction.

262
00:15:11,425 --> 00:15:15,965
And then the, the extent to the cost, um, I guess it will be considered.

263
00:15:16,650 --> 00:15:21,090
Maybe once or a couple times when you set up the system and when you,

264
00:15:21,100 --> 00:15:24,290
when you, for example, you download Wasabi and for the first time it

265
00:15:24,290 --> 00:15:26,110
will tell you, Hey, there's a 0.

266
00:15:26,110 --> 00:15:29,510
3 percent fee for the CoinJoin service.

267
00:15:30,084 --> 00:15:31,454
so just so that you know, right.

268
00:15:32,589 --> 00:15:34,839
With Phoenix Wallet, now there is a 0.

269
00:15:34,839 --> 00:15:39,749
4 percent for each transaction, and the user is notified at the beginning

270
00:15:40,449 --> 00:15:44,839
of, hey, this is how it is, here's the code, you can review it, etc,

271
00:15:45,309 --> 00:15:48,999
and that means that there is consent.

272
00:15:49,364 --> 00:15:54,304
And if people would think that this is too outrageous of a fee, they would not use

273
00:15:54,304 --> 00:15:56,774
the service or look for an alternative.

274
00:15:57,804 --> 00:16:03,364
And there are many alternatives, you know, for example, with lightning

275
00:16:03,414 --> 00:16:05,074
network wallets on the phone.

276
00:16:05,942 --> 00:16:10,912
Many other wallets have other fee structures and now you as an end user

277
00:16:10,912 --> 00:16:14,792
have the choice of do you want to use this particular software with these

278
00:16:14,812 --> 00:16:20,692
particular services if it costs that much or do you want to use something else and

279
00:16:20,952 --> 00:16:26,157
then maybe you're willing to even take a little bit worse of a product you Uh,

280
00:16:26,627 --> 00:16:28,817
just because it is a bit cheaper, right?

281
00:16:28,837 --> 00:16:31,767
Phoenix is probably the most expensive lightning wallet out there.

282
00:16:32,097 --> 00:16:34,167
It's also by far the most reliable one.

283
00:16:34,377 --> 00:16:36,737
It just works and it almost never fails.

284
00:16:37,397 --> 00:16:41,527
So people are willing to pay a bit extra for having that experience.

285
00:16:42,267 --> 00:16:46,717
And I think that's, uh, that's where also the market comes in.

286
00:16:46,887 --> 00:16:48,577
And especially the cool thing is.

287
00:16:48,932 --> 00:16:53,232
Because this is all free software, like, there is no monopoly, there cannot be,

288
00:16:53,232 --> 00:16:58,432
because anyone has the opportunity and the legal justification to copy the

289
00:16:58,432 --> 00:17:00,712
software and provide the service himself.

290
00:17:01,082 --> 00:17:07,142
It will take you not even a minute to set up a Wasabi CoinJoin coordinator yourself.

291
00:17:07,432 --> 00:17:14,422
And you can charge zero fees, or 5 percent fees, totally up to you.

292
00:17:14,472 --> 00:17:16,782
As long as you can convince people to use...

293
00:17:16,977 --> 00:17:21,717
your service and your software, uh, then that, that is, that is all you need.

294
00:17:22,057 --> 00:17:28,367
Uh, so we, we have a way to automatically and with low friction move money

295
00:17:28,367 --> 00:17:30,307
from the end user to the developers.

296
00:17:30,587 --> 00:17:34,517
And simultaneously we have checks and balances in the sense that if the

297
00:17:34,517 --> 00:17:38,877
developers provide a shitty software or charge too much for it, users will

298
00:17:38,937 --> 00:17:41,197
simply not use that particular service.

299
00:17:41,437 --> 00:17:44,597
They will fork the code base, provide the service themselves,

300
00:17:44,897 --> 00:17:46,737
uh, you know, improve it.

301
00:17:47,057 --> 00:17:51,497
And, uh, provide a cheaper, uh, and, and then hopefully they will get rich because

302
00:17:51,497 --> 00:17:55,667
they were providing a better service for less money and, and therefore a lot

303
00:17:55,667 --> 00:17:59,967
of users will, will end up using them probably enough for them to be profitable.

304
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:05,620
Yeah, so every time you make a transaction of any kind, you do so because you

305
00:18:05,620 --> 00:18:09,340
believe that you will profit from the trade, like that you will have

306
00:18:09,370 --> 00:18:14,090
a, you will be better off with the product or service than without it.

307
00:18:14,260 --> 00:18:18,660
So, so this is, this is not exclusive to Bitcoin in any way, shape or form.

308
00:18:18,670 --> 00:18:24,288
I mean, Different services have different magnitudes of complexity to them.

309
00:18:24,318 --> 00:18:30,588
So buying insurance, for instance, is, is trickier than buying, you know, a

310
00:18:30,598 --> 00:18:35,728
bottle of water that you're, you're less sure about how much value the insurance

311
00:18:35,728 --> 00:18:39,928
policy will bring you than you are a simpler thing like a bottle of water.

312
00:18:40,398 --> 00:18:48,318
And with Wasabi, like, I think the many users Don't know what

313
00:18:48,378 --> 00:18:50,608
the service does to a full extent.

314
00:18:50,638 --> 00:18:54,818
Uh, I mean, and you don't know to which extent it will actually

315
00:18:54,818 --> 00:18:56,748
provide you with more privacy or not.

316
00:18:57,258 --> 00:19:02,378
Uh, you don't know to which extent it will, it may have the risk of

317
00:19:02,438 --> 00:19:04,668
painting a target on your back.

318
00:19:05,048 --> 00:19:08,848
And also when you pay for it, you know that you're paying, what is it?

319
00:19:08,898 --> 00:19:09,388
0.

320
00:19:09,428 --> 00:19:11,838
3 percent fees or something for every coin join.

321
00:19:12,628 --> 00:19:15,368
Uh, you, you don't know what the value of.

322
00:19:16,038 --> 00:19:17,578
Bitcoin is on a certain date.

323
00:19:17,658 --> 00:19:23,018
So, so you, so there's the, the volatility of, uh, I'm tempted to say the volatility

324
00:19:23,018 --> 00:19:27,808
of Bitcoin, but I would say the volatility of the world, uh, because Bitcoin is

325
00:19:27,808 --> 00:19:33,838
the only thing that isn't volatile, but there's a lot of, you know, uh, very.

326
00:19:34,268 --> 00:19:40,208
Variable variables, uh, that factor into, to the decision to use wasabi or not.

327
00:19:40,208 --> 00:19:46,008
So what would you, what would you say to a user who's lost in whether

328
00:19:46,013 --> 00:19:49,548
to use this service or not, and why you should use it, and why, why, why?

329
00:19:49,548 --> 00:19:50,448
It's a good trade off.

330
00:19:50,929 --> 00:19:53,069
Yeah, the world is extremely complex, right?

331
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,319
And, and, and there's, uh, difficulties and nuances.

332
00:19:56,804 --> 00:20:00,644
And the closer you look at any particular good or service, the more

333
00:20:00,654 --> 00:20:02,364
it will blow up into complexity.

334
00:20:02,814 --> 00:20:05,534
Like, nobody knows how the fuck a car works.

335
00:20:06,144 --> 00:20:09,444
A car is such an extremely complex piece of machinery.

336
00:20:10,394 --> 00:20:13,974
And you as the end user, you don't care how it works either.

337
00:20:14,274 --> 00:20:16,934
You have a problem, and you want the problem solved.

338
00:20:17,284 --> 00:20:21,174
You're here, but you want to go there, and you're too lazy to walk.

339
00:20:21,644 --> 00:20:27,494
And so the opportunity cost of not having a car means that you have to

340
00:20:27,494 --> 00:20:31,864
walk and potentially you have to walk so much that it's physically impossible,

341
00:20:32,384 --> 00:20:36,924
or at least not without great cost in terms of you need a lot of food

342
00:20:36,924 --> 00:20:39,294
and water to propel yourself there.

343
00:20:40,124 --> 00:20:45,014
And then it's, I guess it's just about the entrepreneurs to

344
00:20:45,044 --> 00:20:47,334
provide an approachable rationale.

345
00:20:48,694 --> 00:20:52,444
and approachable reason for using a specific service.

346
00:20:53,494 --> 00:20:54,844
Again, why do you want a car?

347
00:20:54,844 --> 00:20:59,234
It's not because of the beautiful design of the combustion engine

348
00:20:59,594 --> 00:21:02,424
or of the brake pads, etc.

349
00:21:02,994 --> 00:21:06,354
It's about getting to places where you're currently not at.

350
00:21:07,084 --> 00:21:14,249
And this is, I guess, the motivational Or emotional value adds that

351
00:21:14,419 --> 00:21:16,069
customers ultimately care about.

352
00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:20,339
And so in Wasabi's sense, you just want to receive money and

353
00:21:20,339 --> 00:21:23,309
send money without telling the entire world that you're doing it.

354
00:21:23,689 --> 00:21:25,509
And that's basically it.

355
00:21:26,189 --> 00:21:30,429
And with using Wasabi, that's how it will work.

356
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,469
You can receive and send money, and not everyone will know about it.

357
00:21:34,879 --> 00:21:35,719
And that's...

358
00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:37,659
That's it.

359
00:21:37,679 --> 00:21:39,799
That's the emotional value add.

360
00:21:40,573 --> 00:21:44,253
And that's, I guess, what we're then trying to market and trying to sell.

361
00:21:44,893 --> 00:21:49,823
It's not about all of the crazy nuance and complexities of how we integrate

362
00:21:49,823 --> 00:21:52,183
a TOR or block filters or coinjoins.

363
00:21:52,923 --> 00:21:57,618
Because ultimately, Regardless of how compelling and interesting these nuances

364
00:21:57,618 --> 00:22:03,848
are, the vast amount of people simply does not have the time, uh, to, to think about

365
00:22:03,848 --> 00:22:05,958
these things and try to figure them out.

366
00:22:06,591 --> 00:22:10,131
So what are, what are in your mind is the most common reason that

367
00:22:10,131 --> 00:22:15,531
people are reluctant to use, uh, coin joins or, or use wasabi in general?

368
00:22:15,591 --> 00:22:19,941
Like, uh, and what is the, what are they getting wrong?

369
00:22:21,011 --> 00:22:23,651
What, what are they misunderstanding?

370
00:22:24,244 --> 00:22:27,434
well, probably number one reason is that their wallet does not support it.

371
00:22:28,329 --> 00:22:37,449
And then even if the wallet supports it, it might be complex and difficult and

372
00:22:37,449 --> 00:22:39,579
non obvious how to activate the feature.

373
00:22:40,122 --> 00:22:44,092
You're talking about coinjoins now and not wasabi because most wallets,

374
00:22:45,434 --> 00:22:49,444
it's possible to send money to wasabi with most wallets, or if not all.

375
00:22:49,933 --> 00:22:54,243
Yes, that's true, but most people don't switch wallets.

376
00:22:54,723 --> 00:22:59,083
I think the vast amount of people just got a wallet years ago

377
00:22:59,083 --> 00:23:00,493
and are still using the same.

378
00:23:02,493 --> 00:23:04,883
Probably even more extreme it's with hardware wallets.

379
00:23:05,543 --> 00:23:11,338
If in 2017 or something you got your first ledger, You're most likely still

380
00:23:11,338 --> 00:23:12,908
going to use that exact same ledger.

381
00:23:13,258 --> 00:23:17,818
And maybe you've upgraded to a new hardware of the same brand.

382
00:23:18,638 --> 00:23:21,198
But most likely even that is not the case.

383
00:23:21,628 --> 00:23:23,998
I guess with software, it's software wallets.

384
00:23:24,008 --> 00:23:29,918
It's a bit more extreme to the other end that the cost of Creating a new wallet

385
00:23:29,918 --> 00:23:34,158
is way lower than the cost of purchasing a new hardware wallet, but still there

386
00:23:34,158 --> 00:23:35,878
is a substantial amount of cost there.

387
00:23:36,208 --> 00:23:39,878
And you, you need to, uh, first of all, find out about the new wallet.

388
00:23:39,878 --> 00:23:40,838
You need to download it.

389
00:23:40,838 --> 00:23:44,668
You need to make a new backup or get out your old backup and import it.

390
00:23:45,038 --> 00:23:49,508
Um, and, and then you need to understand how the details of that new software

391
00:23:49,508 --> 00:23:52,168
work and all the new features, et cetera.

392
00:23:52,658 --> 00:23:55,528
Uh, so that's, that's just a lot of cost.

393
00:23:55,578 --> 00:23:58,418
And, uh, then when are people willing to.

394
00:23:58,698 --> 00:24:01,828
to sacrifice this cost will usually if it's a lot better

395
00:24:01,868 --> 00:24:03,078
than what they currently have.

396
00:24:03,448 --> 00:24:07,538
And we're not talking not just a little bit better, but like 10x better.

397
00:24:07,968 --> 00:24:12,048
And to be frank, it's very difficult to, to create a wallet that's 10x

398
00:24:12,078 --> 00:24:14,558
better than, than the default wallet.

399
00:24:15,054 --> 00:24:18,989
Especially because Users have different preferences, right?

400
00:24:19,199 --> 00:24:22,589
Some users might want to have the, the shit Coin Casino Wallet where they

401
00:24:22,589 --> 00:24:26,159
can store all of their thousands of shit coins in the same user interface.

402
00:24:26,659 --> 00:24:31,729
Uh, and if a wallet like Wasabi is Bitcoin only, well that's not 10 x better.

403
00:24:31,729 --> 00:24:32,900
That's 10 x worse, right?

404
00:24:33,554 --> 00:24:38,459
Um, uh, so, uh, that probably is one of the main reasons of, of why

405
00:24:38,464 --> 00:24:43,589
people don't use, uh, wasabi because it doesn't support Chino, INU coin or

406
00:24:43,594 --> 00:24:46,230
whatever the fuck, um, that, uh, is, is.

407
00:24:47,169 --> 00:24:51,609
Quite likely probably because the vast or a lot of people are going

408
00:24:51,609 --> 00:24:54,329
to have more than just Bitcoin and will want to store that.

409
00:24:54,771 --> 00:24:58,841
uh, but then on the other hand, the people who, who have Bitcoin and who

410
00:24:58,841 --> 00:25:03,652
care about the security and privacy of their Bitcoin, they are, We're going to

411
00:25:03,662 --> 00:25:05,862
be willing to make certain trade offs.

412
00:25:05,932 --> 00:25:09,892
For example, having two different wallets, one for the shitcoins and one for Bitcoin.

413
00:25:11,032 --> 00:25:15,462
But then they will optimize for a wallet experience that is secure

414
00:25:15,802 --> 00:25:17,832
and private just for their Bitcoin.

415
00:25:18,369 --> 00:25:19,769
And here then...

416
00:25:20,114 --> 00:25:21,574
You know, there are a couple wallets.

417
00:25:21,574 --> 00:25:26,534
Again, Electrum is a very popular choice, uh, because of its high security and

418
00:25:26,654 --> 00:25:30,724
immense feature set, uh, and also really good privacy if you use it correctly

419
00:25:30,724 --> 00:25:32,154
with your own back end, et cetera.

420
00:25:32,574 --> 00:25:39,364
Um, but, but then Wasabi Wallet, uh, I guess, again, the, the, the, the

421
00:25:39,364 --> 00:25:43,614
aspect of why we're 10x better than, than any other Bitcoin wallet is, is

422
00:25:43,614 --> 00:25:45,854
that using Bitcoin anonymously is.

423
00:25:46,059 --> 00:25:50,739
It's easy and it's fast and it's cheap, um, compared to other

424
00:25:50,739 --> 00:25:56,179
alternatives, uh, but again, that aspect of privacy is key here, right?

425
00:25:56,179 --> 00:25:59,689
If users don't care about their privacy, they want to have some

426
00:25:59,729 --> 00:26:04,319
publicly verifiable donation wallet or something, then Wasabi is just...

427
00:26:05,209 --> 00:26:08,889
It's too difficult and too slow and too expensive for them because they have

428
00:26:08,889 --> 00:26:14,219
alternatives that are good enough on these fronts and are willing to use them.

429
00:26:14,614 --> 00:26:19,294
Yeah, I can only speak for myself here, but like the, the, the first

430
00:26:19,434 --> 00:26:22,274
wallet I started using was blockchain.

431
00:26:22,274 --> 00:26:23,854
info back in the day.

432
00:26:24,434 --> 00:26:31,924
And that became so shit, uh, that I, uh, well, I, I opted out of it pretty

433
00:26:31,924 --> 00:26:37,099
quickly, but, uh, The sad thing was that I had, uh, recommended it to some of my

434
00:26:37,099 --> 00:26:43,999
friends when I tried to get the orange pill back in 2017 or whatever, uh, and

435
00:26:44,009 --> 00:26:48,379
nowadays, when I see that they still use that wallet, I'm like, what the fuck?

436
00:26:48,409 --> 00:26:49,289
Why haven't you?

437
00:26:49,909 --> 00:26:51,169
This is scary.

438
00:26:51,259 --> 00:26:52,819
Uh, yeah, but you told me to use it.

439
00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:56,289
Yeah, but don't, don't you get updated on stuff?

440
00:26:56,349 --> 00:26:59,519
And most people don't, they, they don't give a crap.

441
00:26:59,969 --> 00:27:01,709
Uh, so.

442
00:27:02,214 --> 00:27:07,565
But what that taught me is I switch wallets a lot more often now because of

443
00:27:07,565 --> 00:27:12,515
that experience, I think, because I had a, like, when they started making it

444
00:27:12,515 --> 00:27:17,815
hard for me to see my balance and wanting me to buy Stellaluna or something, uh,

445
00:27:17,915 --> 00:27:22,205
instantly when opening the app, like the, the, the red flags are everywhere.

446
00:27:23,029 --> 00:27:30,779
So nowadays, I switch wallets more often and I try, I try to weigh the upsides

447
00:27:30,789 --> 00:27:36,009
against the downsides and I don't recommend a specific wallet anymore.

448
00:27:36,009 --> 00:27:38,519
I recommend like do your own research.

449
00:27:39,236 --> 00:27:42,056
And also the technology stack changes, right?

450
00:27:42,136 --> 00:27:44,626
Like years ago, there was no lightning network.

451
00:27:44,646 --> 00:27:46,306
There was no multi sig.

452
00:27:46,876 --> 00:27:47,466
Et cetera.

453
00:27:47,486 --> 00:27:51,876
So, so nowadays, um, many wallets still don't support lightning, right?

454
00:27:51,876 --> 00:27:55,996
So, so lightning enabled wallets is like this subsection of Bitcoin wallets.

455
00:27:56,386 --> 00:28:00,546
Um, and, and then you have like multi sig wallets, but, but even those differentiate

456
00:28:00,556 --> 00:28:04,266
with something like Electrum that can do like its own hacky two out of three

457
00:28:04,266 --> 00:28:06,326
multi sig for, for some time now.

458
00:28:06,356 --> 00:28:09,336
And now we have something like Liana wallet that Can do

459
00:28:09,336 --> 00:28:13,236
advanced, uh, mini scripts, uh, smart contracts, uh, et cetera.

460
00:28:13,236 --> 00:28:17,046
So there, there, the amount of, of technological progress

461
00:28:17,046 --> 00:28:19,086
here is, is pretty substantial.

462
00:28:19,406 --> 00:28:22,796
Um, and, and it's just difficult as a wallet developer to keep up

463
00:28:22,796 --> 00:28:27,226
with it and trying to, to solve one aspect of, of a Bitcoin wallet.

464
00:28:27,286 --> 00:28:27,736
Well.

465
00:28:28,051 --> 00:28:29,571
is already really difficult.

466
00:28:29,921 --> 00:28:32,681
but then doing it with all of the cutting edge features that are

467
00:28:32,701 --> 00:28:36,791
possible and, and available, uh, is, is just simply impossible.

468
00:28:37,011 --> 00:28:41,921
So I think what we've seen in the last five years is, um, like

469
00:28:41,921 --> 00:28:45,961
a specialization in wallets, uh, like, like Wasabi Wallet, right?

470
00:28:46,001 --> 00:28:48,911
We, we focused really hard on on chain privacy.

471
00:28:49,281 --> 00:28:52,301
Uh, like that's, that was our main and only focus.

472
00:28:52,341 --> 00:28:52,691
And.

473
00:28:53,201 --> 00:28:58,231
It took us five, ten years to fix this, to the point where we have it now.

474
00:28:58,777 --> 00:29:02,277
But that means that we have to be blind and completely ignorant about

475
00:29:02,297 --> 00:29:04,007
other very important features.

476
00:29:04,237 --> 00:29:06,087
Again, like Lightning Network, right?

477
00:29:06,087 --> 00:29:10,217
To do a proper Lightning Network is like, yeah, five years of work at the minimum.

478
00:29:11,017 --> 00:29:13,487
And then at the end result, you're going to have something like Phoenix, right?

479
00:29:13,547 --> 00:29:15,097
Which works amazingly well.

480
00:29:15,447 --> 00:29:17,907
But it, it took a long time to get there.

481
00:29:18,433 --> 00:29:22,363
like anyone who, who still remembers the, the Eclair wallet on mobile

482
00:29:22,363 --> 00:29:25,573
before Phoenix, like that was a very different, that was a very

483
00:29:25,573 --> 00:29:27,023
hacky proof of concept, man.

484
00:29:27,363 --> 00:29:30,253
Um, and totally not comparable to Phoenix.

485
00:29:30,724 --> 00:29:34,204
there's just so many different technological nuances here,

486
00:29:34,514 --> 00:29:38,854
and the cost of researching and developing them is extremely high.

487
00:29:39,234 --> 00:29:44,694
And then, if the implementation of this tech is not in an intuitive

488
00:29:44,714 --> 00:29:48,284
and approachable way, then it won't get used much either.

489
00:29:48,994 --> 00:29:53,444
So, it doesn't just have to have technical functionality, it

490
00:29:53,444 --> 00:29:55,024
needs to have a great UX as well.

491
00:29:55,424 --> 00:29:57,574
Um, and all, yeah, all of that just.

492
00:29:57,879 --> 00:30:00,259
Keeps making things difficult and difficult.

493
00:30:01,019 --> 00:30:08,479
So what does the development of Bitcoin development look like in a bull run,

494
00:30:08,779 --> 00:30:14,502
say, we 10X or 100X from here in a, short period of time, what does that look like?

495
00:30:14,592 --> 00:30:18,172
Do the Facebooks and Googles and Amazons of the world start

496
00:30:18,272 --> 00:30:20,302
working on, Bitcoin development?

497
00:30:20,542 --> 00:30:25,922
Is there all of a sudden a an inflow of cash from large entities and what,

498
00:30:25,922 --> 00:30:28,502
are the risks how do you see that?

499
00:30:29,025 --> 00:30:32,705
Well, actually, uh, probably in the bull market, there's going to

500
00:30:32,715 --> 00:30:36,675
be way less development because everyone's kind of focused on number

501
00:30:36,685 --> 00:30:40,155
one, customer support and explaining to people how this stuff works.

502
00:30:40,445 --> 00:30:43,215
And then number two, just spending all of the money that we have.

503
00:30:43,695 --> 00:30:46,145
So it's going to be a big party with very little development.

504
00:30:46,515 --> 00:30:53,055
Probably, but then no of course there is going to be a lot more interest and

505
00:30:53,115 --> 00:30:58,275
a lot more well funded, companies and projects in the space, that will develop

506
00:30:58,275 --> 00:31:00,845
the, niche applications that, they want.

507
00:31:01,254 --> 00:31:04,994
but still, actually, I think that the bear markets have, always been

508
00:31:04,994 --> 00:31:09,044
a much more substantial time for building, compared to the bull markets.

509
00:31:09,454 --> 00:31:12,014
Um, I'm not exactly sure why that is.

510
00:31:12,704 --> 00:31:19,424
But it seems to be the case, and I've really enjoyed this bull run for the fact

511
00:31:19,434 --> 00:31:25,454
of just the immense progress in terms of Lightning Network, privacy, and usability

512
00:31:26,484 --> 00:31:27,894
of all the different applications.

513
00:31:29,684 --> 00:31:35,594
But yeah, more people, more developers, more products is going to be interesting.

514
00:31:35,854 --> 00:31:40,509
I wonder if we will see decentralization in the sense of

515
00:31:40,509 --> 00:31:43,209
less products and consolidation.

516
00:31:44,369 --> 00:31:47,729
I know back in the days there were like a hundred different search engines

517
00:31:47,739 --> 00:31:49,119
and now there's like one or two.

518
00:31:50,389 --> 00:31:54,329
And I wonder if we will see the same with Bitcoin software.

519
00:31:55,799 --> 00:31:57,269
Arguably, maybe yes.

520
00:31:58,444 --> 00:32:02,624
As time passes, the different software projects can, work

521
00:32:02,644 --> 00:32:04,464
on more and more aspects.

522
00:32:04,504 --> 00:32:09,014
And, you know, all of a sudden we have a wallet that does not just have perfect

523
00:32:09,014 --> 00:32:13,824
on chain privacy, but also has lightning network support and, a great multi sig

524
00:32:13,824 --> 00:32:16,154
vault or inheritance planning structure.

525
00:32:16,569 --> 00:32:21,099
Uh, and, uh, you know, maybe also in the same interface, you can lend your

526
00:32:21,309 --> 00:32:25,399
Bitcoin to others and get some leverage or, uh, do some trading with discreet

527
00:32:25,399 --> 00:32:28,349
lock contracts and RGB assets, etc.

528
00:32:28,929 --> 00:32:31,979
With enough developer power, all of this could be done within

529
00:32:31,979 --> 00:32:33,269
a single software project.

530
00:32:33,825 --> 00:32:39,035
and the question is that would people prefer a kind of do, uh,

531
00:32:40,535 --> 00:32:42,605
everything app that just does it all?

532
00:32:43,045 --> 00:32:45,385
Uh, versus something that's more specialized.

533
00:32:45,815 --> 00:32:46,515
Yeah, exactly.

534
00:32:46,515 --> 00:32:46,745
Right.

535
00:32:46,745 --> 00:32:51,975
So apparently there, uh, there has been a lot of these centralization

536
00:32:53,025 --> 00:32:55,135
tendencies and software in the past.

537
00:32:55,705 --> 00:33:00,490
Now, is that because of fiat and because of VC funding, uh, or Is

538
00:33:00,490 --> 00:33:02,890
that inherently how technology goes?

539
00:33:03,423 --> 00:33:07,843
I mean, with Bitcoin, we, we now have way more wallets than we had five years ago.

540
00:33:08,233 --> 00:33:12,123
And so, uh, arguably we're seeing a trend in a different direction

541
00:33:12,153 --> 00:33:16,713
currently happening in, in, in Bitcoin, but maybe that's just the initial

542
00:33:16,713 --> 00:33:21,113
experimentation phases and consolidation comes later, maybe in the bull market.

543
00:33:21,599 --> 00:33:24,019
who knows really, it's going to be interesting to see.

544
00:33:24,599 --> 00:33:28,139
to the point about the reason for bear markets being better for building than

545
00:33:28,139 --> 00:33:34,159
bull markets in the past, at least it has had a lot to do with just the sheer

546
00:33:34,159 --> 00:33:36,889
amount of noise and shit coinery going on.

547
00:33:36,899 --> 00:33:40,339
Like, there's a ton of money going, going to that there, there has

548
00:33:40,339 --> 00:33:44,339
been so, so the next bull run, hopefully we'll have less of that.

549
00:33:45,109 --> 00:33:46,819
Uh, I'm unsure.

550
00:33:46,819 --> 00:33:49,929
There's still, there's still plenty, plenty of people to

551
00:33:49,929 --> 00:33:51,589
fool out there if you wish to.

552
00:33:52,272 --> 00:33:57,262
Unfortunately, but as it was, I think we'll see less shit

553
00:33:57,302 --> 00:33:58,892
coiner in the next bull run.

554
00:33:59,332 --> 00:34:00,172
Certainly hope so.

555
00:34:00,172 --> 00:34:01,512
What do you think?

556
00:34:01,522 --> 00:34:04,802
Like, when is Coinbase and Binance going down?

557
00:34:04,802 --> 00:34:07,532
And when, when do we finally rid ourselves of this bullshit?

558
00:34:08,016 --> 00:34:09,506
And it's a really good question.

559
00:34:09,888 --> 00:34:12,288
I, I think it will be different.

560
00:34:12,688 --> 00:34:17,738
Um, but, but still the amount of scam and opportunism is, is still going to be

561
00:34:17,738 --> 00:34:21,656
there, arguably from different players, arguably from bigger players, right?

562
00:34:21,686 --> 00:34:24,426
Maybe Facebook is going to make another run at their own shit coin.

563
00:34:24,846 --> 00:34:27,746
Um, most certainly each, each central bank is going to make

564
00:34:27,746 --> 00:34:29,226
their run at, at a new shit coin.

565
00:34:29,656 --> 00:34:31,296
Um, and, uh, I.

566
00:34:31,361 --> 00:34:34,721
I wonder of, yeah, who the players will be.

567
00:34:35,741 --> 00:34:39,591
We've decreased the cost of creating new money substantially, right?

568
00:34:39,591 --> 00:34:40,801
Money is just software now.

569
00:34:41,451 --> 00:34:46,011
And that is, yeah, that just means that there will be a lot of

570
00:34:46,301 --> 00:34:48,261
supply for different currencies.

571
00:34:49,891 --> 00:34:50,561
However...

572
00:34:51,026 --> 00:34:56,886
It feels like that, especially in this last bear run, um, we've, we've

573
00:34:56,946 --> 00:35:02,516
increased and improved the, the education around money, um, substantially, right?

574
00:35:02,516 --> 00:35:06,426
That, that might just be because we're in our nice Bitcoin bubble here, uh, and

575
00:35:06,446 --> 00:35:11,356
we think all of us are super smart, but, uh, maybe it really is the case that,

576
00:35:11,996 --> 00:35:15,616
the educational front has, has improved.

577
00:35:15,966 --> 00:35:20,746
Substantially enough so, so that people who, who want to learn more can learn

578
00:35:20,746 --> 00:35:26,604
more and, will not necessarily be misled into weird and nasty projects.

579
00:35:26,904 --> 00:35:28,394
but who knows?

580
00:35:28,494 --> 00:35:35,144
And, uh, there, uh, the, well, for one, there's a lot of money to be made, uh, and

581
00:35:35,144 --> 00:35:37,034
that warrants a lot of marketing effort.

582
00:35:37,437 --> 00:35:41,707
so it has been the case in the past that, that, uh, these altcoin

583
00:35:41,727 --> 00:35:47,242
projects had a humongous marketing budget versus Bitcoin had zero.

584
00:35:47,982 --> 00:35:52,532
Um, and, um, yeah, that, that will probably be continued

585
00:35:52,542 --> 00:35:53,532
to be the case, right?

586
00:35:53,532 --> 00:35:59,442
That, that, uh, certain projects will have a lot more money to be spent on

587
00:35:59,442 --> 00:36:01,722
enticing users to use that product.

588
00:36:02,232 --> 00:36:06,212
And I really wonder, uh, if, if let's say some central bank launches their

589
00:36:06,212 --> 00:36:12,092
own, um, currency with a universal basic income baked into it, uh, on.

590
00:36:12,582 --> 00:36:16,392
Uh, you know, here you get a hundred units of the shit coin each week, and you

591
00:36:16,392 --> 00:36:18,072
can use that to buy all of your stuff.

592
00:36:18,852 --> 00:36:20,592
Probably a lot of people would use it.

593
00:36:20,782 --> 00:36:24,272
And because again, a lot of people don't care much about monetary economics in

594
00:36:24,272 --> 00:36:28,972
the first place, and a hundred units of something that I can buy food for my kids,

595
00:36:29,362 --> 00:36:32,892
that sounds better than this Bitcoin thing where I actually have to work for it.

596
00:36:32,922 --> 00:36:37,172
And, uh, we're, it's going to be really hard to get your hands on, on it.

597
00:36:38,112 --> 00:36:40,292
that will, you know, be for sure.

598
00:36:40,292 --> 00:36:41,002
Interesting.

599
00:36:41,012 --> 00:36:42,462
I think excitement is guaranteed.

600
00:36:43,101 --> 00:36:46,721
Alright, you might have noticed that we've recently partnered with AmberApp.

601
00:36:47,012 --> 00:36:51,342
After our episode with Izzy, their CEO, and our close friend, we knew we

602
00:36:51,342 --> 00:36:54,746
would have to partner with them in some way, If you haven't seen our episode

603
00:36:54,746 --> 00:36:58,836
with Izzy, definitely go check it out, you'll see why it's such a great fit,

604
00:36:59,086 --> 00:37:03,016
and honestly, they're following the orange glowing light like Izzy always

605
00:37:03,016 --> 00:37:07,106
says, and that's exactly what we try to do here at the Freedom Footprint Show.

606
00:37:07,431 --> 00:37:11,841
The big news about AmberApp is that on Jan 3, 2024, they're going

607
00:37:11,841 --> 00:37:13,841
to be launching their version 2.

608
00:37:14,057 --> 00:37:17,567
I've seen some of the screenshots and it looks fantastic.

609
00:37:17,862 --> 00:37:21,673
They're going to be including a non custodial on chain wallet, an

610
00:37:21,693 --> 00:37:25,945
anonymous lightning wallet, a fiat wallet, And finally, it's going

611
00:37:25,945 --> 00:37:27,285
to be an exchange, of course.

612
00:37:27,525 --> 00:37:30,427
it's going to be just this super app, They're also going

613
00:37:30,427 --> 00:37:31,777
to be launching globally.

614
00:37:31,797 --> 00:37:33,347
Everyone's going to be able to use it.

615
00:37:33,587 --> 00:37:35,317
we're really excited about all that.

616
00:37:35,447 --> 00:37:38,087
Stay tuned with us and you'll hear all about it.

617
00:37:38,287 --> 00:37:40,637
And for now, check out their website, amber.

618
00:37:40,887 --> 00:37:43,597
app and the episode with Izzy to find out more.

619
00:37:43,904 --> 00:37:45,443
Next up WasabiWallet.

620
00:37:45,683 --> 00:37:49,133
The privacy by default, open source, non custodial Bitcoin

621
00:37:49,133 --> 00:37:50,843
wallet with CoinJoin built in.

622
00:37:51,423 --> 00:37:55,413
It's the easy to use, comprehensive, affordable way to make your coins private.

623
00:37:55,978 --> 00:37:58,988
And the best part is, they've been making huge improvements to the app.

624
00:37:59,298 --> 00:38:02,248
They're really focusing on the user experience, adding advanced

625
00:38:02,358 --> 00:38:04,908
features for power users, they just keep getting better.

626
00:38:05,428 --> 00:38:08,908
You send your coins to your Wasabi wallet, and they get combined with loads of

627
00:38:08,908 --> 00:38:13,028
other coins using the Wabi Sabi protocol, so they're private on the other end.

628
00:38:13,568 --> 00:38:17,078
Your tracks are covered so you can work on expanding your Freedom Footprint

629
00:38:17,228 --> 00:38:18,908
without worrying about your privacy.

630
00:38:19,788 --> 00:38:20,698
So, check out wasabiwallet.

631
00:38:20,698 --> 00:38:23,868
io and download Wasabi today.

632
00:38:24,197 --> 00:38:28,307
Yeah, the fact that people are still falling for the fiat scam is sort of

633
00:38:28,347 --> 00:38:32,077
alludes to that they're going to fall for other scams as well, like they're

634
00:38:32,077 --> 00:38:37,947
still using euros, for instance, and that's pointing somewhere like, but

635
00:38:38,397 --> 00:38:40,637
still, like, my, my experience is last.

636
00:38:41,822 --> 00:38:46,580
My yearly conference run, maybe the conference has had a bit,

637
00:38:49,590 --> 00:38:52,360
uh, fewer attendees, uh, a hundred less here and there.

638
00:38:52,890 --> 00:38:59,220
Uh, but I felt the signal to noise rate ratio was way higher this year.

639
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:04,995
I mean, The, uh, even the conferences that are more apologetic to shit coiners

640
00:39:05,555 --> 00:39:08,065
had a higher signal to noise ratio.

641
00:39:08,065 --> 00:39:09,795
Is that, is that your experience as well?

642
00:39:09,795 --> 00:39:13,549
That we as a tribe are growing even in the bear market.

643
00:39:14,124 --> 00:39:16,414
Yeah, it definitely feels like it, right?

644
00:39:16,854 --> 00:39:21,624
This last year of conferences was really good, um, and, and the amount

645
00:39:21,624 --> 00:39:23,344
of conferences was staggering too.

646
00:39:23,744 --> 00:39:26,274
I mean, I don't know, I've seen you at like 20 different

647
00:39:26,274 --> 00:39:27,834
conferences this year or something.

648
00:39:27,864 --> 00:39:34,394
So, um, and, and we still haven't, couldn't even make them all, right?

649
00:39:34,394 --> 00:39:39,894
There's so many that, that I missed, um, and that's definitely encouraging.

650
00:39:39,934 --> 00:39:41,824
Um, I think that.

651
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:47,309
Uh, the, the, the fact to, to meet and meet space and to share ideas

652
00:39:47,309 --> 00:39:51,989
there and, and to work on, on projects and, and to meet people and network

653
00:39:52,409 --> 00:39:57,299
is, uh, it, it shows, it's, it's real fruits in the long term, right?

654
00:39:57,299 --> 00:40:01,439
It, it'll take a couple months or years for the projects that were

655
00:40:01,439 --> 00:40:05,969
started at such conferences to, to flourish and, uh, and, and.

656
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:07,319
be realized.

657
00:40:07,699 --> 00:40:11,639
Um, like I remember the lightning network hack days in Berlin.

658
00:40:12,029 --> 00:40:19,219
Um, like so many cool ideas were born there, uh, that are just now, you know,

659
00:40:19,219 --> 00:40:22,989
hitting full stride and, and providing amazing services and products to people.

660
00:40:23,359 --> 00:40:25,699
So just again, it takes a lot of time to build.

661
00:40:25,779 --> 00:40:29,789
And, uh, it seems that we've been able to do quite a lot of

662
00:40:29,789 --> 00:40:31,379
building in the spare market.

663
00:40:32,094 --> 00:40:33,914
And then also in terms of onboarding, right?

664
00:40:33,914 --> 00:40:39,964
There were quite a lot of new people I met here at these events who instantly had

665
00:40:40,104 --> 00:40:42,274
the knowledge to ask the right questions.

666
00:40:42,864 --> 00:40:46,314
And that is, I think, very powerful.

667
00:40:46,534 --> 00:40:51,164
The frame has been shifted and the overturned window has been shifted

668
00:40:51,164 --> 00:40:52,654
quite substantially, I would say.

669
00:40:53,424 --> 00:40:59,394
And I just always have to giggle when I hear at some conference in the corner.

670
00:40:59,614 --> 00:41:03,254
People talking about inflation being theft and, the evils

671
00:41:03,274 --> 00:41:05,144
of the Cantillon effect, etc.

672
00:41:05,644 --> 00:41:10,384
that's outrageous to think that 10, 15 years ago this would have

673
00:41:10,384 --> 00:41:13,774
been a casual conversation that you hear while walking past someone.

674
00:41:14,338 --> 00:41:16,088
uh, completely impossible.

675
00:41:16,158 --> 00:41:20,438
nobody knew what inflation was, um, like 10, 20 years ago, nobody cared.

676
00:41:20,818 --> 00:41:21,548
Um, but.

677
00:41:21,843 --> 00:41:26,213
But nowadays, it is something that at least in our little bubble, uh,

678
00:41:26,223 --> 00:41:30,933
is, is where even the newcomers are aware of, of these facts and,

679
00:41:30,973 --> 00:41:32,383
and, uh, thinking about them.

680
00:41:32,803 --> 00:41:35,433
Uh, so that's, that's just very encouraging.

681
00:41:35,443 --> 00:41:35,693
Yeah.

682
00:41:36,462 --> 00:41:37,392
Absolutely.

683
00:41:37,482 --> 00:41:42,492
Uh, I mean, and that's, that's the part of the inevitability of this thing, right?

684
00:41:44,202 --> 00:41:49,382
Whenever people wake up to, to a reality that, that was there all

685
00:41:49,382 --> 00:41:53,158
along, but they just weren't aware of it, because they were indoctrinated.

686
00:41:53,238 --> 00:41:58,278
Like the waking up process is, is It's spreading like people are

687
00:41:58,658 --> 00:42:03,408
realizing that they've been lied to about inflation in particular, like

688
00:42:03,858 --> 00:42:08,158
once you realize that, like, because there are no good counter arguments.

689
00:42:08,578 --> 00:42:11,508
I've never heard a central banker or a politician.

690
00:42:11,868 --> 00:42:15,688
Give a really, really solid counter argument to inflation.

691
00:42:15,698 --> 00:42:20,648
I mean, there's the Keynesian, uh, argument that spending is more important

692
00:42:20,648 --> 00:42:24,308
than saving and because, because you create value each time you make a

693
00:42:24,308 --> 00:42:28,608
transaction, but that's so easy to, it's so easy to debunk that argument.

694
00:42:29,208 --> 00:42:35,778
Like that, by just, as Hoppe says, just ask the very simple questions,

695
00:42:35,938 --> 00:42:39,308
like, how can you create wealth by printing more pieces of paper?

696
00:42:40,108 --> 00:42:44,198
And if central banking works, why are there still poor people?

697
00:42:44,378 --> 00:42:45,118
Like, it's.

698
00:42:45,523 --> 00:42:52,752
It's very easy to debunk, and I, I think that message will just continue to spread

699
00:42:52,802 --> 00:42:57,312
and, uh, that in combination with, with this, the, the, the video conferencing,

700
00:42:57,752 --> 00:43:02,147
the social media, which is, has turned out to be more about connecting with

701
00:43:02,147 --> 00:43:06,137
people you don't know than to reinforce the connections you already have and

702
00:43:06,137 --> 00:43:11,717
finding like minded people, like that's just, It, it really does obsolete borders.

703
00:43:11,877 --> 00:43:17,727
I mean, there are no borders involved, involved in this call, for instance, and

704
00:43:17,727 --> 00:43:22,296
we could send bitcoins to one another if we want to do, there's nothing stopping

705
00:43:22,296 --> 00:43:27,961
it, it doesn't matter what kind of a gun you have, uh, it's, it's unstoppable.

706
00:43:28,507 --> 00:43:28,677
Yeah.

707
00:43:29,137 --> 00:43:32,667
These technologies are extremely, extremely powerful, right?

708
00:43:32,667 --> 00:43:36,217
And, and we're still reeling from the after effects of the internet.

709
00:43:36,872 --> 00:43:40,242
The fact that our computers can talk to each other regardless of

710
00:43:40,242 --> 00:43:45,304
where we are, that alone is such a profound shift in human collaboration.

711
00:43:45,787 --> 00:43:50,007
The fact that you can look up any book and read it within like 30

712
00:43:50,017 --> 00:43:51,907
seconds of having the idea to read it.

713
00:43:53,247 --> 00:44:00,027
That alone is so profound, and again, we could have stopped development of

714
00:44:00,027 --> 00:44:07,707
cyberspace technology 10, 20 years ago, and it would have already been a profound,

715
00:44:07,757 --> 00:44:13,207
profound change to the human experience, but we didn't stop development.

716
00:44:13,267 --> 00:44:17,947
In fact, we've increased the speed of development because of the internet.

717
00:44:18,217 --> 00:44:22,487
we could Build something like Bitcoin, right?

718
00:44:22,487 --> 00:44:27,392
Satoshi could not have even closely come up with Bitcoin without the

719
00:44:27,392 --> 00:44:32,612
ability to, talk to other people around the world and, to get their ideas

720
00:44:32,642 --> 00:44:35,022
and, download ancient books, right?

721
00:44:35,082 --> 00:44:35,637
This, uh, like.

722
00:44:36,757 --> 00:44:40,967
Satoshi would have had no chance of developing Bitcoin without Mises.org

723
00:44:42,187 --> 00:44:43,507
just alone that one website.

724
00:44:43,517 --> 00:44:47,887
It was a fundamental requirement for Bitcoin to come into existence.

725
00:44:48,307 --> 00:44:53,417
Um, and, and then of course, with, with, with Bitcoin being there,

726
00:44:53,737 --> 00:44:58,147
it's just the next level step of.

727
00:44:58,767 --> 00:45:00,847
advancement in technologies.

728
00:45:01,347 --> 00:45:07,267
the rate of change is going to be even more intense because of Bitcoin.

729
00:45:07,297 --> 00:45:12,207
And again, we could stop Bitcoin development today and the consequences

730
00:45:12,207 --> 00:45:16,557
of what we've already achieved over the next 10, 20, 50 years

731
00:45:16,817 --> 00:45:18,937
would be absolutely staggering.

732
00:45:19,757 --> 00:45:22,437
But again, it seems that we will just continue to build.

733
00:45:22,817 --> 00:45:23,947
Um, and.

734
00:45:25,122 --> 00:45:28,502
like, I wonder if that's actually the case though, right?

735
00:45:28,502 --> 00:45:32,402
Because it seems so ridiculous and preposterous, um, and, you know,

736
00:45:33,112 --> 00:45:37,302
reading about, ancient or not that ancient, but like a hundred years ago

737
00:45:37,302 --> 00:45:44,707
in Vienna, the, amount of optimism and the appreciation of the progress

738
00:45:45,487 --> 00:45:47,217
seems to have been very similar, right?

739
00:45:47,277 --> 00:45:50,647
People thought that it could only go up and up and up, and we

740
00:45:50,647 --> 00:45:55,772
will just continuously improve human existence, through forever.

741
00:45:56,372 --> 00:45:59,972
But then the, the first world war happened and the second world war

742
00:45:59,972 --> 00:46:02,972
and, um, century of war ever since.

743
00:46:03,022 --> 00:46:03,292
Right.

744
00:46:04,232 --> 00:46:08,242
So I wonder if we're a bit naive in terms of thinking that Bitcoin will

745
00:46:08,262 --> 00:46:12,412
continue to, excel and, exponentially so.

746
00:46:13,150 --> 00:46:18,880
But, you know, arguably, despite all the fiat meddling with the economy of

747
00:46:18,910 --> 00:46:22,630
the last hundred years, we have seen this rate of improvement and change.

748
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,540
And despite all the taxation and all the theft and all the misallocation of

749
00:46:27,540 --> 00:46:32,570
resources and, uh, all the, the, the just, squashing of the human spirit.

750
00:46:33,060 --> 00:46:38,700
But imagine what could be if, that stops, if that, uh, invention,

751
00:46:38,700 --> 00:46:44,600
interventionism, goes away or at least becomes irrelevant, right, when,

752
00:46:44,660 --> 00:46:48,000
uh, that it's just very profound.

753
00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:51,260
it's, very all encompassing.

754
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,290
And I think we get to experience at least a little bit of this

755
00:46:54,290 --> 00:46:57,800
being at the forefront of Bitcoin as, as a cutting edge technology.

756
00:46:58,290 --> 00:46:59,675
Uh, but again, like the.

757
00:46:59,825 --> 00:47:05,475
The second and third generation of this will be insane.

758
00:47:06,465 --> 00:47:08,885
Nostr is one perfect example for this.

759
00:47:09,665 --> 00:47:13,135
It's a technology that probably could have only come up by some

760
00:47:13,135 --> 00:47:14,915
bitcoiners or at least cypherpunks.

761
00:47:17,825 --> 00:47:23,455
Uh, it, it's just such a beautifully simple solution to, to such a enormously

762
00:47:23,455 --> 00:47:28,735
big, uh, problem, like arguably bigger than the money right on, on, uh, human

763
00:47:28,735 --> 00:47:33,105
collaboration and communication like that predates money by quite a lot.

764
00:47:33,653 --> 00:47:38,453
Then the consequences of having a protocol that is secure and resilient and that

765
00:47:38,463 --> 00:47:40,363
works in different sets and settings.

766
00:47:41,033 --> 00:47:45,293
Uh, I mean, wow, like what, what can we build with just that?

767
00:47:45,473 --> 00:47:47,443
And forget the money for a second.

768
00:47:47,473 --> 00:47:51,663
Uh, just the ability for humans to communicate in a structured

769
00:47:51,663 --> 00:47:55,723
and orderly fashion about, well, notes and other stuff.

770
00:47:56,003 --> 00:47:58,523
Uh, there's a lot of other stuff that we can talk about.

771
00:47:58,893 --> 00:47:59,443
Is, is.

772
00:47:59,848 --> 00:48:01,088
is absolutely insane.

773
00:48:01,458 --> 00:48:04,248
But combining that then on top of the internet and the searchability

774
00:48:04,258 --> 00:48:09,478
and indexability of it, and on top of Bitcoin and the money system

775
00:48:09,478 --> 00:48:15,348
that cannot be stolen or inflated or corrupted, it is just staggering.

776
00:48:15,708 --> 00:48:17,958
So I'm so pumped for the future.

777
00:48:18,048 --> 00:48:19,378
It's going to be wild.

778
00:48:19,891 --> 00:48:21,821
Yeah, that's why we're here.

779
00:48:21,841 --> 00:48:25,051
For the reasons you just stated, we're like, we see it too.

780
00:48:25,071 --> 00:48:26,841
It's, uh, it's absolutely amazing.

781
00:48:27,101 --> 00:48:29,971
And this, this is one thing we talked to Jeff about yesterday.

782
00:48:29,971 --> 00:48:34,541
Jeff Booth was on the show yesterday and we talked about ideas and how

783
00:48:34,541 --> 00:48:39,931
there's no way to measure what kind of impact they have on other people.

784
00:48:40,291 --> 00:48:44,871
And you alluding to Bitcoin not being able to exist at all without Mises.

785
00:48:44,871 --> 00:48:45,171
org.

786
00:48:46,236 --> 00:48:51,846
It's, it's one such thing, like, I don't think the people, I think the

787
00:48:51,856 --> 00:48:55,106
majority of people working on mises.

788
00:48:55,116 --> 00:48:57,986
org are totally unaware that that is the case, that there

789
00:48:57,996 --> 00:48:59,606
would be no Bitcoin without them.

790
00:49:00,538 --> 00:49:05,418
so, so that's so interesting about ideas in general that we, we don't know

791
00:49:05,418 --> 00:49:07,458
what impact this conversation has on.

792
00:49:07,458 --> 00:49:12,298
So it might lead to another person, uh, getting an aha moment

793
00:49:12,738 --> 00:49:16,588
and figuring something out and drawing connections between dots.

794
00:49:16,718 --> 00:49:16,808
That's.

795
00:49:17,603 --> 00:49:22,633
Not even megabrains such as, uh, yours and, and, and maybe

796
00:49:22,633 --> 00:49:24,103
Luke's can, can come up with.

797
00:49:24,553 --> 00:49:31,093
So, so, um, yeah, I, I don't know, uh, it just feels so, so good

798
00:49:31,103 --> 00:49:32,803
to, to talk about these things.

799
00:49:33,948 --> 00:49:37,678
Yeah, it's pretty profound, you know, and I've, I've met now a

800
00:49:37,678 --> 00:49:43,658
couple people who like were watching my obscure videos from like five,

801
00:49:43,668 --> 00:49:48,918
seven years ago, uh, talking about economics or, or anarchy or cypherpunk.

802
00:49:49,368 --> 00:49:52,688
Um, and like these videos have a couple hundred views, right?

803
00:49:52,688 --> 00:49:57,578
They're very much not successful in the classical sense, but, but still.

804
00:49:57,918 --> 00:50:02,378
People come up to me and saying that they, they were extremely impactful in

805
00:50:02,378 --> 00:50:04,218
their journey of becoming a Bitcoiner.

806
00:50:04,578 --> 00:50:10,218
And then I look at what that person has achieved in the last couple of years and

807
00:50:10,218 --> 00:50:15,468
how many people he has influenced, um, with, you know, his ideas or his music.

808
00:50:15,878 --> 00:50:18,188
Uh, it's, it's just staggering.

809
00:50:18,288 --> 00:50:22,808
Like the fact that, you know, the little kid like me in his parents

810
00:50:22,808 --> 00:50:26,978
basement making some videos about economics can have an impact.

811
00:50:27,193 --> 00:50:31,753
Not just for one generation, but two and three and four generations to come.

812
00:50:32,743 --> 00:50:34,273
It's a butterfly effect, right?

813
00:50:34,273 --> 00:50:41,023
a tiny impact or a tiny action can have a monumental impact.

814
00:50:41,423 --> 00:50:43,013
And I think we've just...

815
00:50:43,428 --> 00:50:46,148
Underestimated the, power of the individual.

816
00:50:46,528 --> 00:50:51,268
and, Bitcoin is, holding a, mirror in front of us like, look

817
00:50:51,268 --> 00:50:52,968
how fucking powerful you are.

818
00:50:53,208 --> 00:50:57,078
Like seriously, that's, it's, it's absolutely insane.

819
00:50:57,423 --> 00:51:02,128
And, and so having technologies that, foster and, strengthen this

820
00:51:02,218 --> 00:51:08,068
individual empowerment will again be, just a, staggering, staggering

821
00:51:08,068 --> 00:51:09,178
achievement in the long run.

822
00:51:09,808 --> 00:51:10,518
Absolutely.

823
00:51:10,548 --> 00:51:12,878
I mean, they described it so perfectly there.

824
00:51:12,918 --> 00:51:17,078
I mean, whenever, whenever I experienced such a moment, like with one, a

825
00:51:17,078 --> 00:51:18,618
person saying that I am a help.

826
00:51:18,743 --> 00:51:20,673
The I orange spilled them or something.

827
00:51:20,673 --> 00:51:23,143
It's just like, and you see what that person has achieved.

828
00:51:23,563 --> 00:51:26,523
It's just a magic feeling because you get a reminder that you're

829
00:51:26,523 --> 00:51:27,773
not doing this for nothing.

830
00:51:28,283 --> 00:51:34,513
There, uh, it's, uh, and, and as you say, superpowers, it's magical internet money.

831
00:51:34,523 --> 00:51:36,953
And it's good.

832
00:51:37,013 --> 00:51:42,133
And it, it, the mirror shows you how, how important just communication

833
00:51:42,133 --> 00:51:45,483
is just putting the ideas out there and not being ashamed of them.

834
00:51:46,073 --> 00:51:47,843
It's extremely powerful.

835
00:51:48,101 --> 00:51:48,421
Yeah.

836
00:51:48,451 --> 00:51:49,381
And it's so easy.

837
00:51:49,591 --> 00:51:50,391
It's so easy.

838
00:51:50,391 --> 00:51:52,221
I mean, what you and I are doing, it's not hard.

839
00:51:52,221 --> 00:51:53,851
It's like, it takes nothing.

840
00:51:53,851 --> 00:51:55,151
It takes fucking nothing, man.

841
00:51:55,451 --> 00:51:55,631
no.

842
00:51:55,631 --> 00:51:58,541
We, we had no clue what we were going to talk about today.

843
00:51:58,546 --> 00:52:00,371
It was like, do you know what we're talking about?

844
00:52:00,491 --> 00:52:06,131
Uh, this is pre-show and, uh, uh, and Max is like, no, and I have no idea either.

845
00:52:06,131 --> 00:52:07,211
Luke, do you have an idea?

846
00:52:07,241 --> 00:52:10,751
Uh, maybe ask Max about the year.

847
00:52:10,841 --> 00:52:12,341
Uh, and that's it.

848
00:52:12,341 --> 00:52:13,031
And we, that's it.

849
00:52:13,391 --> 00:52:14,231
Hit record.

850
00:52:14,231 --> 00:52:16,901
And this conversation happens and I love it.

851
00:52:17,061 --> 00:52:21,931
Like that's the, just follow, follow the orange glowing light.

852
00:52:22,781 --> 00:52:23,081
Yeah.

853
00:52:23,141 --> 00:52:23,431
Yeah.

854
00:52:23,451 --> 00:52:23,661
Yeah.

855
00:52:23,831 --> 00:52:24,071
Yeah.

856
00:52:24,391 --> 00:52:24,551
Yeah.

857
00:52:24,551 --> 00:52:27,661
And it's, it's like already having these conversations and all that's.

858
00:52:28,211 --> 00:52:31,101
That's a very easy thing to do with, with a huge impact.

859
00:52:31,441 --> 00:52:35,241
Um, and, and then developing software, it's not rocket science.

860
00:52:35,261 --> 00:52:36,131
Come on, guys.

861
00:52:36,321 --> 00:52:42,631
it's, totally doable to, write code that's, impactful and look at the impact

862
00:52:42,631 --> 00:52:46,601
of something crazy like Bitcoin or, like Wasabi or the Lightning Network.

863
00:52:47,551 --> 00:52:51,001
these were just a couple of dudes, you know, having fun coding

864
00:52:51,001 --> 00:52:55,001
up some stuff and shipping it, but the consequences of it are.

865
00:52:55,456 --> 00:52:56,616
Just simply profound.

866
00:52:56,986 --> 00:52:59,286
and it doesn't take anything special.

867
00:52:59,306 --> 00:53:01,896
It doesn't take a massive genius.

868
00:53:01,906 --> 00:53:04,136
It doesn't take huge amounts of courage.

869
00:53:04,626 --> 00:53:06,596
it doesn't take much dedication either.

870
00:53:06,636 --> 00:53:07,916
It doesn't even take much work.

871
00:53:08,906 --> 00:53:15,236
the amount that we can achieve with, just a little bit of effort is crazy, right?

872
00:53:15,236 --> 00:53:17,966
But, what if, we activate.

873
00:53:18,306 --> 00:53:21,296
Not just a couple of tens of thousands of people like right now,

874
00:53:21,296 --> 00:53:25,646
but a couple of millions, billions of people to just do a little bit

875
00:53:26,086 --> 00:53:32,186
in terms of human flourishing and individual empowerment...like wow, it's

876
00:53:32,661 --> 00:53:33,621
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

877
00:53:33,861 --> 00:53:34,921
It's totally crazy.

878
00:53:35,111 --> 00:53:35,371
Yeah.

879
00:53:35,371 --> 00:53:41,811
I'm, I'm thinking of even pre Bitcoin era little snippets of software, like

880
00:53:41,831 --> 00:53:47,951
VLC media player, for instance, or Winamp, change the world or Napster.

881
00:53:49,371 --> 00:53:52,571
That's also a dude in a basement just with a hobby project.

882
00:53:54,136 --> 00:53:55,556
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

883
00:53:56,106 --> 00:53:59,405
And, um, so the, and yeah, that it.

884
00:53:59,706 --> 00:54:05,176
It changed the world so profoundly and very much in a better direction.

885
00:54:06,026 --> 00:54:09,786
And this is something that has always been possible.

886
00:54:10,736 --> 00:54:17,296
And I guess now we get to experience just how much the impact of it can be.

887
00:54:17,716 --> 00:54:20,156
And that's really cool to see.

888
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916
00:55:39,945 --> 00:55:41,845
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928
00:56:12,768 --> 00:56:18,148
Luke, you haven't gotten a chance to say anything for, um, for more than an

929
00:56:18,148 --> 00:56:20,278
hour now, so it's time to let you in.

930
00:56:20,318 --> 00:56:21,248
What's on your mind?

931
00:56:21,933 --> 00:56:22,553
Thanks Knut.

932
00:56:22,623 --> 00:56:28,493
And no worries, as always, this is excellent to have our lovely

933
00:56:28,493 --> 00:56:32,573
guest and you Knut, both just riffing, it's loads of fun.

934
00:56:32,953 --> 00:56:39,823
But Max, so maybe another angle on what's going on in the Wasabi world.

935
00:56:40,203 --> 00:56:41,773
There's lots of these regulations.

936
00:56:41,923 --> 00:56:47,303
These days, or either they have been implemented or, or there's some kind

937
00:56:47,303 --> 00:56:53,743
of plan to implement that are, uh, saying that using mixers, wasabi, some

938
00:56:53,743 --> 00:56:57,163
alternative is, is going to be banned.

939
00:56:57,754 --> 00:57:01,104
I mean, I think I know your answer to this sort of, but what do you think of that?

940
00:57:01,114 --> 00:57:07,714
And, and what is there practically as far as, uh, some, some resistance to those

941
00:57:07,714 --> 00:57:10,184
sorts of regulations to maintain privacy?

942
00:57:10,865 --> 00:57:15,805
Yeah, I think a lot of people are very afraid, because of the realization of how

943
00:57:15,815 --> 00:57:20,285
powerful these technologies are and that the world simply is not the same anymore.

944
00:57:21,275 --> 00:57:26,765
Um, again, we have anonymous money now, like money that cannot be inflated.

945
00:57:27,265 --> 00:57:28,665
Money that cannot be stolen.

946
00:57:29,595 --> 00:57:31,255
That changes everything, right?

947
00:57:31,255 --> 00:57:35,215
And it changes everything in such a profound way that people who have a lot

948
00:57:35,215 --> 00:57:43,095
of power in the old world are afraid of having to give it up, and I guess

949
00:57:43,105 --> 00:57:47,360
still thinking that that they can stop it when, when in reality they,

950
00:57:47,390 --> 00:57:53,190
they cannot, um, it's a, uh, that's, that's just very profound, right?

951
00:57:53,230 --> 00:57:57,780
Um, the, the, the march of technology is relentless in this regard.

952
00:57:58,130 --> 00:58:02,210
Uh, and it's, it's not just up to, to any one individual

953
00:58:02,230 --> 00:58:05,820
to like to make or break it.

954
00:58:05,830 --> 00:58:10,430
It's, it's a, it's a tendency and, and, and ideas are powerful

955
00:58:10,460 --> 00:58:12,200
and ideas are bulletproof, right?

956
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:18,085
Uh, so Yes, there is going to be a lot of pushback, I think, in, in the

957
00:58:18,175 --> 00:58:24,995
near term future, um, because a, a transition of power is rarely, uh,

958
00:58:25,665 --> 00:58:28,065
like calm and peaceful and bloodless.

959
00:58:28,525 --> 00:58:32,405
Um, it is probably going to be very wild, uh, the next couple of years.

960
00:58:32,815 --> 00:58:37,495
Um, I, I wonder if we've already seen the worst of it.

961
00:58:37,965 --> 00:58:44,578
Uh, or if the worst is yet to come, I, I don't know, uh, but there is definitely

962
00:58:44,588 --> 00:58:49,398
going to be a lot of, uh, pressure to try to put the genie back into the bottle.

963
00:58:49,788 --> 00:58:52,928
Uh, and I wonder what happens when, when people realize that that's

964
00:58:52,948 --> 00:58:54,608
just not going to happen anymore.

965
00:58:54,968 --> 00:59:01,568
Uh, I, I hope it is going to be a path of, of reason and, uh, and, and calm.

966
00:59:01,998 --> 00:59:02,418
Uh, and.

967
00:59:02,983 --> 00:59:10,943
Uh, yeah, peaceful cooperation, but it's probably unlikely to happen like that.

968
00:59:11,733 --> 00:59:14,453
So, yeah, guys, be careful out there.

969
00:59:14,843 --> 00:59:18,303
It's going to be a wild ride, especially in the next years.

970
00:59:18,713 --> 00:59:20,883
And we will see how it goes.

971
00:59:24,281 --> 00:59:29,411
I often like to envision Bitcoin as the little kid in the emperor's new clothes

972
00:59:30,011 --> 00:59:32,671
who points out that the emperor is naked.

973
00:59:33,351 --> 00:59:36,881
And it was, it's, it's, it's so obvious when you see it.

974
00:59:37,583 --> 00:59:44,093
most people, uh, haven't, just haven't met that kid yet, pointing out, pointing

975
00:59:44,103 --> 00:59:46,403
out, pointing out the blatantly obvious.

976
00:59:47,038 --> 00:59:50,098
Yeah, but it is obvious, and it is true, right?

977
00:59:50,108 --> 00:59:53,458
That's, that's, that's, I guess, what gives me the most hope

978
00:59:54,268 --> 00:59:58,078
is, is that it's, it's just obviously true and obviously good.

979
00:59:58,788 --> 01:00:01,788
And the truth prevails, I believe.

980
01:00:02,258 --> 01:00:06,788
So, the, despite a lot of pushback.

981
01:00:07,088 --> 01:00:12,878
The forces behind good are just a lot more powerful than those of evil.

982
01:00:13,488 --> 01:00:19,028
And especially when we collaborate and coordinate and organize, which

983
01:00:19,068 --> 01:00:21,108
I think Bitcoin has shown as well.

984
01:00:21,228 --> 01:00:26,853
And the amount of people that we have connected with is This is insane

985
01:00:26,903 --> 01:00:29,523
and extremely, extremely powerful.

986
01:00:30,113 --> 01:00:34,163
The friendships and collaborations that have been forged over the last

987
01:00:34,163 --> 01:00:38,673
couple years, especially in the bull market, will be those that will get

988
01:00:38,673 --> 01:00:40,573
us through all types of trouble.

989
01:00:41,423 --> 01:00:42,923
And I think that...

990
01:00:43,138 --> 01:00:44,628
That is very important.

991
01:00:44,878 --> 01:00:45,878
Strength in numbers.

992
01:00:46,048 --> 01:00:47,178
That's very much the case.

993
01:00:47,828 --> 01:00:50,438
And it's, it's about distributing the risk as well.

994
01:00:50,808 --> 01:00:55,378
And, uh, to, that there's not just one entity that, that can be taken down

995
01:00:55,418 --> 01:01:00,048
in order to stop the system, but that you would need to, I mean, in order to

996
01:01:00,048 --> 01:01:01,388
stop Bitcoin, you would need to kill.

997
01:01:01,678 --> 01:01:03,798
Tens of thousands of people at this point.

998
01:01:04,148 --> 01:01:05,628
Hundreds of thousands of people.

999
01:01:06,008 --> 01:01:09,658
And I guess such a genocide would lead to enormous pushback.

1000
01:01:12,528 --> 01:01:13,668
And that's a good thing.

1001
01:01:13,678 --> 01:01:17,858
And we should work on protocols with more of these aspects, right?

1002
01:01:17,868 --> 01:01:23,028
To distribute risk and to just to ensure that people working

1003
01:01:23,028 --> 01:01:25,058
on these projects are secure.

1004
01:01:26,568 --> 01:01:30,803
But yeah, like, I mean, one of the other rabbit holes is free private

1005
01:01:30,803 --> 01:01:34,643
cities that are flourishing like crazy.

1006
01:01:34,963 --> 01:01:40,073
In the last year, the amount of progress on that front is just staggering.

1007
01:01:40,493 --> 01:01:46,033
And so we will have a plethora of small jurisdictions offering

1008
01:01:47,053 --> 01:01:49,853
legal and jurisprudence services.

1009
01:01:50,283 --> 01:01:53,193
Uh, with free market ideals, right?

1010
01:01:53,193 --> 01:01:58,373
And, um, the, the more of these free citadels pop up, uh, the, the

1011
01:01:58,373 --> 01:02:02,093
more difficult it will be to, to, to stop the entire system, right?

1012
01:02:02,093 --> 01:02:05,993
Because if, if we have places in meat space that are protected under

1013
01:02:05,993 --> 01:02:10,823
property rights and, and with, with real law and order, uh, then.

1014
01:02:10,998 --> 01:02:14,678
Uh, again, it will be more and more difficult to stop the people

1015
01:02:15,168 --> 01:02:16,448
acting peacefully within them.

1016
01:02:17,018 --> 01:02:21,528
Yeah, not only that, but like the, the rise of passport theory and, and,

1017
01:02:21,528 --> 01:02:26,358
uh, getting a residency where it's better for you and like people voting

1018
01:02:26,368 --> 01:02:32,258
with their feet, as they say, um, and just nomads in general, just not

1019
01:02:32,278 --> 01:02:33,958
giving a fuck about borders anymore.

1020
01:02:34,408 --> 01:02:35,648
That's very promising.

1021
01:02:35,968 --> 01:02:39,148
And like, it reminds me of the, the Soviet Union.

1022
01:02:39,398 --> 01:02:46,258
Once again, and how they, a bad system can only win as long as

1023
01:02:46,258 --> 01:02:48,138
everyone's playing by those rules.

1024
01:02:48,368 --> 01:02:52,938
Like if we refuse to play the game at all, that's, that's how we win.

1025
01:02:52,948 --> 01:02:58,588
That's how, that's how you emancipate yourself from, from whatever

1026
01:02:58,588 --> 01:03:02,388
clutches you happen to be bound by.

1027
01:03:04,498 --> 01:03:05,678
It's a lot of hard words there.

1028
01:03:07,388 --> 01:03:09,858
Yeah, but it's so true, right?

1029
01:03:09,878 --> 01:03:14,588
And it's, uh, you know, these are strategies that work, like right

1030
01:03:14,588 --> 01:03:19,848
now, um, and, and show a huge promise of improving in the future too.

1031
01:03:20,328 --> 01:03:25,838
And, uh, the, the aspect of, of citadels, uh, or free cities popping

1032
01:03:25,838 --> 01:03:29,498
up all over the globe, uh, and having secure travel in between.

1033
01:03:29,998 --> 01:03:34,128
In between them, like that, that's going to be a reality within the

1034
01:03:34,128 --> 01:03:37,328
next five years, very much so, right?

1035
01:03:38,248 --> 01:03:41,098
Seasteads on the high and open ocean are definitely going to be a

1036
01:03:41,098 --> 01:03:43,558
reality within like one or two years.

1037
01:03:44,008 --> 01:03:49,048
Um, and that, you know, all of, all of these things together with, with

1038
01:03:49,048 --> 01:03:53,068
the advancement of, of liberation of, of pockets of freedom in meat space.

1039
01:03:53,678 --> 01:04:00,198
Together with the unstoppable technologies of cyberspace are extremely powerful.

1040
01:04:01,598 --> 01:04:06,438
Again, with certainly a lot of pushback and a lot of turbulence in the short term.

1041
01:04:07,178 --> 01:04:10,173
But in the long run, I think there is...

1042
01:04:10,733 --> 01:04:14,113
There's definitely a tendency towards greater human freedom and

1043
01:04:14,113 --> 01:04:16,563
individual empowerment to come.

1044
01:04:17,458 --> 01:04:21,788
Yeah, Seasteading is about the only type of free city that I don't believe

1045
01:04:21,788 --> 01:04:28,758
in, uh, having spent, lived half my life at sea, because, uh, I think

1046
01:04:28,758 --> 01:04:31,848
there's a lot of problems with that, but yeah, the disclaimer here, I'm

1047
01:04:31,848 --> 01:04:35,518
an ambassador for the Free Cities Foundation, and I think you are too, Max.

1048
01:04:35,518 --> 01:04:39,468
I didn't, I didn't have the time to, to look that up, but, but

1049
01:04:39,468 --> 01:04:40,688
this is happening everywhere.

1050
01:04:40,698 --> 01:04:42,548
And, uh, we are everywhere.

1051
01:04:42,918 --> 01:04:44,078
Bitcoiners are everywhere.

1052
01:04:44,078 --> 01:04:45,268
Um, um, yeah.

1053
01:04:45,538 --> 01:04:47,738
Citadel advocates are also everywhere.

1054
01:04:47,768 --> 01:04:54,198
Like, uh, when I, like last week in Germany, like the, the, the thing I

1055
01:04:54,198 --> 01:04:57,058
love about the German community is that.

1056
01:04:57,618 --> 01:05:03,378
You know, you're in the smallest of places, and Bitcoiners are, the conviction

1057
01:05:03,378 --> 01:05:10,788
is strong, like, everyone's technical knowledge is high, there was even a role

1058
01:05:10,788 --> 01:05:14,728
playing game, like, where we taught the kids and everything, how the network

1059
01:05:14,758 --> 01:05:19,888
works, in a very, very thorough way, so the game was so complicated, so

1060
01:05:19,888 --> 01:05:24,668
that it never really started, it was just a setup, and to explain, um, oh!

1061
01:05:25,808 --> 01:05:30,358
Uh, you know, nodes sending packages and requests to one another back

1062
01:05:30,358 --> 01:05:33,418
and forth and really thorough explanation of how this works.

1063
01:05:33,438 --> 01:05:37,788
And, and these educational efforts are happening everywhere at once as well.

1064
01:05:37,788 --> 01:05:42,298
And in, in Germany in particular, I think there's a meetup like every two

1065
01:05:42,298 --> 01:05:44,668
weeks in each major city of Germany.

1066
01:05:45,048 --> 01:05:49,818
There's, uh, because of the, uh, Einundzwanzig, uh, movement.

1067
01:05:50,358 --> 01:05:51,368
It's just amazing.

1068
01:05:51,378 --> 01:05:54,938
And not to mention Czech Republic.

1069
01:05:55,378 --> 01:05:55,918
It's everywhere.

1070
01:05:55,918 --> 01:05:59,218
Prague is the Bitcoin capital of Europe, isn't it?

1071
01:05:59,956 --> 01:06:00,896
Yeah, definitely.

1072
01:06:00,896 --> 01:06:01,116
Right.

1073
01:06:01,116 --> 01:06:06,726
And like, I'm to some extent, I was very bearish on Germany.

1074
01:06:06,776 --> 01:06:11,166
Like I escaped it in 2019, um, uh, for, for numerous reasons.

1075
01:06:11,666 --> 01:06:15,436
Um, and the, it's, it's very much on a downward path on,

1076
01:06:15,566 --> 01:06:16,916
on so many fronts, right?

1077
01:06:16,936 --> 01:06:20,276
Energy, politics, uh, just bureaucracy and, and the

1078
01:06:20,276 --> 01:06:21,626
hindrance of entrepreneurship.

1079
01:06:21,946 --> 01:06:25,306
It's absolutely staggering, um, like insane, right?

1080
01:06:25,306 --> 01:06:29,306
The, the intervention into everyday life is, is so substantial and, and

1081
01:06:29,306 --> 01:06:33,616
so hurtful, uh, that, uh, that led not just to me fleeing the country,

1082
01:06:33,616 --> 01:06:37,757
but thousands of people fleeing the country, and nevertheless.

1083
01:06:38,157 --> 01:06:42,497
There is an extremely solid remnant in Germany of people who care and

1084
01:06:42,497 --> 01:06:49,227
who want to see the place improve and who will fight like hell to ensure

1085
01:06:49,227 --> 01:06:52,797
that the bureaucrats don't take the last soul of the country away.

1086
01:06:53,187 --> 01:06:59,937
And that's, like, Einundzwanzig is, like, it's unspeakable to what has

1087
01:06:59,937 --> 01:07:05,137
been achieved with, again, just like a couple dudes starting a podcast, right?

1088
01:07:06,177 --> 01:07:07,877
And, like, a couple years later.

1089
01:07:08,457 --> 01:07:13,377
As you say, every tiny village has a Bitcoiner meetup now, um, and, and,

1090
01:07:13,437 --> 01:07:17,587
and people building the, the community and the circular economy and, and the

1091
01:07:17,587 --> 01:07:21,829
education, it's just so staggering again, what, what, what can be achieved,

1092
01:07:22,179 --> 01:07:26,479
uh, with, with a little bit of effort and dedication, uh, and organization.

1093
01:07:26,984 --> 01:07:27,264
Right?

1094
01:07:27,454 --> 01:07:31,044
That's, that's again, the other thing, like, um, uh, there, there are

1095
01:07:31,044 --> 01:07:35,634
so many isolated Bitcoiners who are feeling lost in a sea of fiat culture.

1096
01:07:35,974 --> 01:07:40,404
And, if, they remain lost and isolated, then they are not powerful, right?

1097
01:07:40,444 --> 01:07:43,884
They, are...Or not as powerful as they could be.

1098
01:07:45,084 --> 01:07:50,504
but, with coordination and collaboration, and, a little bit of working together.

1099
01:07:51,264 --> 01:07:54,644
The long term effects are just staggering.

1100
01:07:54,694 --> 01:07:59,914
And I think the German speaking area is definitely an example

1101
01:07:59,914 --> 01:08:00,954
to follow on that front.

1102
01:08:01,614 --> 01:08:07,374
And we see that it is spreading to other European cities now with this

1103
01:08:07,374 --> 01:08:09,014
particular type of organization.

1104
01:08:09,844 --> 01:08:12,244
And that's just super encouraging.

1105
01:08:12,494 --> 01:08:14,484
And it needs to be done.

1106
01:08:14,944 --> 01:08:19,524
There needs to be this bottom up grassroots movement of

1107
01:08:19,564 --> 01:08:21,094
dedicated freedom fighters.

1108
01:08:21,304 --> 01:08:26,124
To, say no to the tyrants and, to stand their ground.

1109
01:08:26,364 --> 01:08:29,324
that, is extremely important, right?

1110
01:08:29,324 --> 01:08:33,654
And, we need to do that on many fronts in, all the directions.

1111
01:08:33,894 --> 01:08:40,474
Like stand your ground and, ensure that, that the tyrants don't have an easy

1112
01:08:40,474 --> 01:08:43,274
path, towards theft and tyranny, right?

1113
01:08:43,954 --> 01:08:48,109
we need to increase their cost of attack, while decreasing our cost of defense.

1114
01:08:49,449 --> 01:08:53,569
And cypherpunk technology enables that, and now it's on

1115
01:08:53,599 --> 01:08:58,619
us to use these technologies to ensure that humanity survives.

1116
01:08:58,969 --> 01:09:00,819
And not just that, but thrives.

1117
01:09:01,209 --> 01:09:04,219
I mean, we've seen what's possible with bitcoin and freedom

1118
01:09:04,219 --> 01:09:05,699
technologies in our own bubble.

1119
01:09:06,109 --> 01:09:07,849
it should not be a bubble.

1120
01:09:08,074 --> 01:09:08,354
Right.

1121
01:09:09,024 --> 01:09:12,774
this, spirit, this ethos, this, love should be everywhere.

1122
01:09:13,773 --> 01:09:14,633
Absolutely.

1123
01:09:14,733 --> 01:09:19,618
And once again, to Germany, the soul of the country is it.

1124
01:09:19,788 --> 01:09:21,338
Meticulous tinkering.

1125
01:09:21,608 --> 01:09:26,978
There's a lot of meticulous tinkerers in basements building, like, it's a

1126
01:09:26,978 --> 01:09:32,538
country of the descendants of fathers who built, you know, Märklin model

1127
01:09:32,558 --> 01:09:34,228
train tracks in their basements.

1128
01:09:34,228 --> 01:09:36,668
And now they're tinkering with nodes instead.

1129
01:09:36,668 --> 01:09:37,498
That's how I view it.

1130
01:09:37,498 --> 01:09:39,868
And that's the real soul of the country.

1131
01:09:40,928 --> 01:09:42,078
Unfortunately, the word.

1132
01:09:42,313 --> 01:09:47,613
The dark forces that have every once in a while gripped the country with

1133
01:09:48,293 --> 01:09:54,983
seeing the entire country as a model train track, totalitarianists and social

1134
01:09:54,983 --> 01:10:00,733
engineers have been in charge too much and it's a constant fight between the

1135
01:10:00,733 --> 01:10:07,704
two, the ones who actually want to build things, and That allows for technological

1136
01:10:07,704 --> 01:10:11,374
progress and the people who just want to socially engineer everything.

1137
01:10:11,614 --> 01:10:16,724
And when you say programmable money, I mean, and referring to Bitcoin as

1138
01:10:16,724 --> 01:10:22,909
programmable money, we should, uh, we should, uh, state a warning that Uh,

1139
01:10:22,949 --> 01:10:28,419
whenever, in whatever other context you hear the word programmable money,

1140
01:10:28,599 --> 01:10:32,879
you should avoid it like the plague, because programmable money in the sense

1141
01:10:32,879 --> 01:10:39,879
of a CBDC means programmable you, like the thing it programs is you and your

1142
01:10:39,879 --> 01:10:46,139
behaviors, and that is just the darkest path imaginable for humanity to take.

1143
01:10:46,689 --> 01:10:49,929
So, the only way is to take matters into your own hands.

1144
01:10:50,944 --> 01:10:51,734
Yeah, exactly.

1145
01:10:51,744 --> 01:10:56,794
Like Bitcoin is a money system where you can program your own money.

1146
01:10:57,214 --> 01:11:01,134
And CBDCs are a system where someone else is programming you.

1147
01:11:01,874 --> 01:11:03,524
Very, very big difference.

1148
01:11:03,863 --> 01:11:09,453
with all of this sort of forward looking in a theoretical sense, what about

1149
01:11:09,533 --> 01:11:14,153
on a practical level, what's coming up for you for ZK Snacks for Wasabi?

1150
01:11:15,045 --> 01:11:15,565
keep building.

1151
01:11:16,065 --> 01:11:16,465
Right.

1152
01:11:16,775 --> 01:11:18,305
In any shape or form.

1153
01:11:20,335 --> 01:11:24,415
Again, the progress of the last couple of years is staggering and

1154
01:11:26,025 --> 01:11:28,535
will just keep going, basically.

1155
01:11:29,245 --> 01:11:33,145
One of the big things is a mobile wallet.

1156
01:11:34,370 --> 01:11:39,950
That is going to be a huge work in progress that we just now started.

1157
01:11:40,670 --> 01:11:45,630
It actually runs on mobile now already, at least in emulator.

1158
01:11:46,420 --> 01:11:49,930
Somewhat, still a lot of errors and bugs that have to be ironed out.

1159
01:11:50,940 --> 01:11:56,380
But it's faster progress than I could have imagined, actually.

1160
01:11:57,980 --> 01:12:01,140
One of the key blockers to this is the Tor network.

1161
01:12:01,460 --> 01:12:02,850
Um, again, the...

1162
01:12:03,125 --> 01:12:08,325
Tor is one of these open source projects with, without a company that has

1163
01:12:08,325 --> 01:12:11,135
struggled for funding very substantially.

1164
01:12:11,175 --> 01:12:15,495
And, um, so we've tried to address that with the Onion Service Resource

1165
01:12:15,495 --> 01:12:21,245
Coalition, uh, like a funding group of, of external companies to ensure ongoing

1166
01:12:21,245 --> 01:12:26,205
development of, uh, the, this highly critical, uh, infrastructure project.

1167
01:12:26,525 --> 01:12:29,855
Um, and the work of that is, is paying off really nicely.

1168
01:12:29,905 --> 01:12:32,125
Um, uh, there is a new.

1169
01:12:32,195 --> 01:12:37,475
So Tor implementation, a library written in Rust, which is kind

1170
01:12:37,475 --> 01:12:42,065
of the next generation client or software architecture for Tor.

1171
01:12:43,165 --> 01:12:47,945
It's going to be critically needed to ensure a network level

1172
01:12:47,945 --> 01:12:49,515
privacy on the mobile phone.

1173
01:12:49,970 --> 01:12:54,500
Um, currently, the Tor implementation we have on the phone is, is kindergarten.

1174
01:12:54,500 --> 01:12:59,300
It's, it's very, very much not good enough, uh, and it, it would not

1175
01:12:59,310 --> 01:13:03,250
work to sustain a sophisticated Tor user like WasabiWallet.

1176
01:13:03,710 --> 01:13:06,200
Um, so that library has...

1177
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:07,440
has now been released in version 1.

1178
01:13:07,440 --> 01:13:14,910
0, actually, um, and, uh, can already now be tinkered with, and next year, like the

1179
01:13:14,910 --> 01:13:19,550
second or third quarter, uh, there will be a stable RPC version, uh, for this new

1180
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:22,670
Tor implementation, and that is today.

1181
01:13:22,685 --> 01:13:26,265
something that will unlock the next wave of innovation in

1182
01:13:26,265 --> 01:13:27,755
terms of mobile phone privacy.

1183
01:13:28,115 --> 01:13:32,295
Uh, like it cannot be overstated of how important that project is and

1184
01:13:32,295 --> 01:13:35,945
people should definitely look into contributing and supporting it wherever

1185
01:13:35,945 --> 01:13:37,285
they can, including financially.

1186
01:13:37,795 --> 01:13:42,075
Um, so that, uh, yeah, that's, that's a key one, right?

1187
01:13:42,155 --> 01:13:46,675
And, uh, another really interesting path is, uh, hardware wallet coin

1188
01:13:46,675 --> 01:13:48,825
joints, uh, the, the biggest.

1189
01:13:49,510 --> 01:13:54,200
The most left over problem with, with CoinJoin technology is that

1190
01:13:54,490 --> 01:13:59,440
it is difficult to sign a CoinJoin transaction with the private keys on

1191
01:13:59,440 --> 01:14:04,430
a secure offline environment, like a hardware wallet, um, that, uh,

1192
01:14:04,510 --> 01:14:07,630
Trezor has made enormous progress.

1193
01:14:07,670 --> 01:14:11,900
And, and, uh, last year, no, this year, oh, so much happened this year.

1194
01:14:11,900 --> 01:14:12,300
Crazy.

1195
01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:18,240
The first implementation of a hardware wallet signing these

1196
01:14:18,240 --> 01:14:19,760
coinjoin transactions securely.

1197
01:14:20,150 --> 01:14:24,890
Um, a ungodly amount of research and development went into that project, uh,

1198
01:14:24,930 --> 01:14:28,690
and we want to replicate it so that it's not just the Trezor hardware wallet, uh,

1199
01:14:28,710 --> 01:14:33,280
to be able to sign coinjoin securely, but hopefully any hardware wallet, um,

1200
01:14:34,170 --> 01:14:38,130
that requires some collaboration with the hardware wallet manufacturers and

1201
01:14:38,140 --> 01:14:42,590
the firmware that that they have, uh, but it is something where we're gonna,

1202
01:14:42,710 --> 01:14:45,550
uh, help and support wherever we can.

1203
01:14:46,130 --> 01:14:52,730
Um, and these, these two things, or three things, the, uh, mobile wallets,

1204
01:14:52,770 --> 01:14:56,220
uh, with a better Tor integration and hardware wallet signing.

1205
01:14:56,725 --> 01:15:02,795
Um, it is like the next big milestone, um, that we will hopefully achieve very soon.

1206
01:15:03,275 --> 01:15:07,695
Uh, and after that, it's about, uh, lightning network, right?

1207
01:15:07,705 --> 01:15:14,075
I think that's then the, the next leftover big problem to tackle a

1208
01:15:14,275 --> 01:15:19,825
privacy preserving lightning network, uh, infrastructure, uh, that, uh,

1209
01:15:19,855 --> 01:15:22,035
there have been enormous improvements.

1210
01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:26,720
on that front on the protocol for the last two years, especially,

1211
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:31,920
um, and, and now we have like, for example, route blinding, uh, being,

1212
01:15:32,090 --> 01:15:34,950
uh, deployed in Sea Lightning and LDK.

1213
01:15:35,260 --> 01:15:39,560
And I think in L& D also with the upcoming release, uh, so that means

1214
01:15:39,580 --> 01:15:43,250
that you can receive payments in the, over the Lightning Network without

1215
01:15:43,290 --> 01:15:45,330
revealing the public key of your node.

1216
01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:49,330
And so that it's not clear to the sender of who is actually getting paid,

1217
01:15:49,670 --> 01:15:51,090
which Lightning Node is getting paid.

1218
01:15:51,090 --> 01:15:55,470
So that's a very critical part of, of the privacy game that,

1219
01:15:55,770 --> 01:15:57,480
that even the person whom you pay.

1220
01:15:57,890 --> 01:16:01,370
The person who pays you that they cannot spy on each other, right?

1221
01:16:01,370 --> 01:16:05,600
That, uh, uh, if, if that is, is fully achieved in lightning, that

1222
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:06,950
that will be a pretty big deal.

1223
01:16:07,310 --> 01:16:13,050
Um, there's then, you know, other routing privacy improvements that that

1224
01:16:13,055 --> 01:16:18,120
can be done, uh, that probably still requires some research and development.

1225
01:16:18,450 --> 01:16:21,840
I would love to see what a mix net on, on lightning looks like.

1226
01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:24,930
And so we have onion routing similar to the tour network.

1227
01:16:25,275 --> 01:16:30,025
Um, where you route your package across a linear line of nodes, right?

1228
01:16:30,155 --> 01:16:33,055
From node A to node B to node C to the destination.

1229
01:16:33,565 --> 01:16:39,175
Um, and, and MixNets is basically that the routing nodes wait a couple

1230
01:16:39,175 --> 01:16:42,755
of seconds before they release the package to the next node.

1231
01:16:42,865 --> 01:16:47,125
Um, so we wait and, and accumulate many users.

1232
01:16:47,590 --> 01:16:52,860
Uh, uh, uh, who all have different routes and everyone is stuck at the

1233
01:16:52,860 --> 01:16:54,600
node for some couple of seconds.

1234
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:58,370
The node shuffles the packages and then forwards them on.

1235
01:16:58,780 --> 01:17:03,570
Um, this is a much, much superior privacy architecture.

1236
01:17:03,980 --> 01:17:08,370
Um, and It is used in communication networks, so TOR is an onion routing

1237
01:17:08,370 --> 01:17:12,030
network versus something like Katzenpost or NIM is a mixed network.

1238
01:17:13,210 --> 01:17:18,140
Similar aspects can be done with lightning routing, and it's an area

1239
01:17:18,140 --> 01:17:23,560
that's not yet very much explored, but something that is extremely

1240
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:28,145
interesting for Uh, like the long term privacy improvements to Lightning.

1241
01:17:28,635 --> 01:17:35,235
Um, uh, yeah, that's, but like after that, it's going to be very boring guys.

1242
01:17:35,285 --> 01:17:40,205
Like, I think we, we fixed, we fixed the money, like it's done now.

1243
01:17:40,505 --> 01:17:43,625
Um, arguably it's already done right now.

1244
01:17:43,655 --> 01:17:47,445
And things like a mobile wallet or hardware wallet signing or Lightning

1245
01:17:47,445 --> 01:17:49,845
integration is, or even Lightning is like.

1246
01:17:50,605 --> 01:17:53,885
Decently fine on the privacy front and decently scalable too.

1247
01:17:54,365 --> 01:18:00,335
Um, so it's, yeah, like, I think the money is solved and then the

1248
01:18:00,335 --> 01:18:01,885
question is what do we do next?

1249
01:18:01,975 --> 01:18:08,640
And then, uh, probably something like Nostr is, uh, This is where a lot of room

1250
01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:14,170
for improvement is still to be made, um, both in terms of its security and privacy,

1251
01:18:14,590 --> 01:18:16,840
uh, as, as well as just usability.

1252
01:18:16,850 --> 01:18:20,730
There, there is a thousand and one amazing product ideas to be built on Nostr,

1253
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:23,350
uh, and, and someone's got to do it.

1254
01:18:23,830 --> 01:18:27,650
And someone's going to have a lot of fun doing it, and it's probably

1255
01:18:27,650 --> 01:18:29,030
going to be us as well, right?

1256
01:18:29,130 --> 01:18:34,480
We Bitcoiners who are now bored with having fixed the money can finally go

1257
01:18:34,480 --> 01:18:36,000
on and fixing the rest of the world.

1258
01:18:37,210 --> 01:18:38,820
And then it's going to be fun.

1259
01:18:39,426 --> 01:18:39,986
you got it.

1260
01:18:40,336 --> 01:18:41,206
The money is fixed.

1261
01:18:41,306 --> 01:18:42,996
Now go out there and fix the world.

1262
01:18:43,006 --> 01:18:46,926
Start by liking, subscribing, clicking the fucking notification

1263
01:18:46,946 --> 01:18:51,146
bell button and brushing your teeth and make the world a better place.

1264
01:18:53,246 --> 01:18:55,186
Like Michael Jackson said, yeah.

1265
01:18:57,031 --> 01:18:57,241
Yep.

1266
01:18:57,291 --> 01:18:58,271
I think that's it, Max.

1267
01:18:58,611 --> 01:18:59,001
Yeah.

1268
01:18:59,171 --> 01:19:03,871
Uh, unless we have one that dig into another rabbit hole or three,

1269
01:19:03,871 --> 01:19:07,861
but, uh, I think, I think that was a great note to end this one on.

1270
01:19:08,401 --> 01:19:15,491
I know Max is the type of guest who thinks the best content comes

1271
01:19:15,501 --> 01:19:17,511
after the 4th hour has started.

1272
01:19:19,031 --> 01:19:21,481
So, but I don't think we're going there today.

1273
01:19:21,811 --> 01:19:22,381
So, Max.

1274
01:19:22,591 --> 01:19:23,791
it's alright.

1275
01:19:23,991 --> 01:19:24,871
I understand.

1276
01:19:25,021 --> 01:19:27,911
I've bored you to pieces and you're kicking me out now

1277
01:19:27,931 --> 01:19:29,231
before it could get interesting.

1278
01:19:29,231 --> 01:19:30,051
It's okay.

1279
01:19:30,051 --> 01:19:32,011
You're only hurting my feelings a little bit.

1280
01:19:32,171 --> 01:19:34,231
Oh, is that why you wanted to start two hours early?

1281
01:19:34,231 --> 01:19:37,261
You wanted to leave this room for a four or five hour rip?

1282
01:19:37,971 --> 01:19:40,691
In that case, I'll go get a, I'll go get a beer or something, but,

1283
01:19:42,178 --> 01:19:46,338
Alright, well, we um, when do we see each other next time?

1284
01:19:46,918 --> 01:19:48,008
Atlantis, probably,

1285
01:19:48,093 --> 01:19:50,293
Most likely Atlantis and Madeira, right?

1286
01:19:50,293 --> 01:19:51,843
That's, that's going to be a hell of a fun.

1287
01:19:51,983 --> 01:19:55,733
Um, the sovereign engineering bootcamp before or cohort before,

1288
01:19:56,143 --> 01:19:57,893
uh, that's going to be wild.

1289
01:19:57,973 --> 01:20:00,863
Um, like it's, it's another crazy thing, right?

1290
01:20:00,903 --> 01:20:03,373
Gigi and Pablo were like, yeah, we should like get together,

1291
01:20:03,383 --> 01:20:04,773
hang out and meet space a bit.

1292
01:20:05,093 --> 01:20:07,323
Let's see, let's open it up to the public.

1293
01:20:07,323 --> 01:20:09,153
Maybe one or two people will join us.

1294
01:20:09,873 --> 01:20:15,063
But no, like over 200 people signed up for this commitment to, to

1295
01:20:15,063 --> 01:20:20,083
come there, pay for their own rent and accommodation and flight and

1296
01:20:20,183 --> 01:20:23,473
add like 200 dedicated cypherpunk

1297
01:20:24,168 --> 01:20:25,468
beautiful and insane.

1298
01:20:25,918 --> 01:20:26,288
Yeah.

1299
01:20:26,863 --> 01:20:27,253
yeah.

1300
01:20:27,603 --> 01:20:29,563
And it's the first one, right?

1301
01:20:29,673 --> 01:20:32,833
What if we don't just have one, but like 10 of them in

1302
01:20:32,863 --> 01:20:34,543
parallel all over this globe?

1303
01:20:34,593 --> 01:20:39,743
Like, just imagine, just imagine the amount of crazy shit that we can build

1304
01:20:39,743 --> 01:20:41,533
if we get our act together, right?

1305
01:20:41,543 --> 01:20:45,983
With projects like this, like it's going to be mind blowing of what comes out

1306
01:20:45,983 --> 01:20:48,283
of this one cohort in a couple months.

1307
01:20:48,693 --> 01:20:52,033
Uh, and again, extrapolate that to the future.

1308
01:20:52,113 --> 01:20:54,993
And then, uh, increase it in intensity.

1309
01:20:55,363 --> 01:21:00,163
Like, I think we all have to like retire soon because it's going

1310
01:21:00,163 --> 01:21:03,733
to be so fucking intense that we just can't handle it anymore.

1311
01:21:04,163 --> 01:21:06,443
And we have to, the young kids have to take it over them.

1312
01:21:07,211 --> 01:21:07,571
Yeah.

1313
01:21:07,781 --> 01:21:13,721
Max, you are a world class hopium salesman, and I as

1314
01:21:13,721 --> 01:21:15,251
a hopium salesman myself.

1315
01:21:15,251 --> 01:21:21,971
I hope you, you, you, you never lose your hope And keep on hop hoping ho, ho hop.

1316
01:21:22,966 --> 01:21:23,466
Hopping.

1317
01:21:24,216 --> 01:21:25,986
Read Hoppe and you will get a lot of hopium.

1318
01:21:26,711 --> 01:21:32,621
Read Hopper, uh, enjoy hops and, uh, in, in every way, shape or form.

1319
01:21:32,681 --> 01:21:35,941
And yeah, keep on fighting for freedom.

1320
01:21:36,996 --> 01:21:38,026
And that's the spirit.

1321
01:21:38,846 --> 01:21:41,726
Well, thanks very much guys for the invite again.

1322
01:21:41,846 --> 01:21:45,516
I'm really looking forward to hearing your next upcoming shows.

1323
01:21:46,016 --> 01:21:48,876
You just keep crushing it on them and looking forward to my

1324
01:21:48,876 --> 01:21:50,316
next appearance on them as well.

1325
01:21:50,496 --> 01:21:51,466
Thanks very much guys.

1326
01:21:52,221 --> 01:21:52,651
Thank you.

1327
01:21:52,701 --> 01:21:55,701
That means, means a lot to us coming from you.

1328
01:21:56,051 --> 01:21:57,091
Uh, so yeah.

1329
01:21:57,801 --> 01:21:58,911
and you're welcome anytime.

1330
01:21:58,971 --> 01:22:00,031
You're welcome anytime.

1331
01:22:00,031 --> 01:22:00,671
Absolutely.

1332
01:22:00,741 --> 01:22:01,971
So thanks again.

1333
01:22:02,531 --> 01:22:04,091
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

1334
01:22:04,191 --> 01:22:04,951
Thanks for listening.