Obi Nwosu on Scaling Bitcoin with Fedi - FFS #63

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Welcome to the Freedom Footprint show,

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Obi.

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Thank you.

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Thank you for having me guys.

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We finally did it.

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Yeah, finally.

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Yeah.

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We, we tried in vain and Riga just didn't quite get the schedules connected.

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I think we were looking, we were both looking for each other for a good

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hour or something.

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Yeah.

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It was one of these sort of movies where you just keep missing the

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person that you're looking right and the other person's looking

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left and you walk past each other.

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Yeah.

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Um, but

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anyway.

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Here we are, Sonny Lugano.

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Yeah, I, last year Lugano was, um, it was glorious forever.

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It was the first time I went to Lugano and it was amazing.

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This year, not so much, not so much, but still the energy, the,

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the, the orange energy is strong.

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And we're happy because we're in a five star hotel, in a five star

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city, in a five star country, right?

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You can really feel it.

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It's pretty cool.

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It's pretty cool.

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Just ignore these guys.

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They're

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letting it get to them.

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Well, at least Knut is.

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I think Obi is so humble, but you

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know.

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So, well,

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this is the exception to the rule.

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Uh, I mean, uh, I've lived in everything from best Western to

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worst Eastern,

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you know?

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Yeah.

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All right.

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I remember backpacking, um, around the world and actually you would think

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that the worst places would be in like.

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Africa or Southeast Asia, but actually the worst, um, hostel

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I stayed in was in, in the U.

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S.

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All right.

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Um, it was in Hawaii and the, and you shared your bed with, I don't know,

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several dozen cockroaches and you went into, I remember going at night, I, I,

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I only stayed there one night, but I had to, I remember going into the bathroom

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and I was like, weird, the floor's black.

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And then I opened the door, turn on the lights, and then the cockroaches

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scattered, but it was so many cockroaches.

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Initially, I thought the floor was black and that's how bad it was.

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And when you went to bed, there was cockroaches in the bed and you've,

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you normally, you think open the bed and the cockroaches would run away.

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They just, they don't, they didn't care.

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They just would still just be hanging around.

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Pull her out.

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And I was so tired.

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I had to sleep.

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I just, just tried to not imagine what was crawling over me.

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Stayed there one night and then the following day I found someone

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else, but it was so crazy.

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It reminds me of the shittiest bar I've ever been to, which was in Bahrain.

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So it was an illegal bar called Old Beams, and imagine, you know,

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the toilet scene from Trainspotting where he dives down the toilet to

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get the suppository, that kind of

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vibe.

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Did you try to reenact that there?

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No, no, no, I didn't, fortunately.

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And there were a lot of stories about the place.

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Apparently some guy died of a heart attack in the bar and just fell

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down with his head to the bar.

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And they didn't find out until the, until closing time because they thought

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it was just drunk and sitting there.

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So like, wake up and the guy's dead.

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So Obi, give us the TLDR on Obi Wan like, what's

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your story?

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My background is, you can hear from my accent, I'm British, English,

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member of the United Kingdom.

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Um, but, um, my back background is Nigerian descent.

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So both my parents, um, were from Nigeria.

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Um, um, sadly they both passed away in the last sort of five, six years.

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Um, but they were both from Nigeria.

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Um, I was actually conceived in Nigeria.

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Um, but born, born in the UK, so I always like to say that my mother made a T for

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airport and I combat rolled down the stairs into, into the United Kingdom.

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Um, yeah, grew up in inner city, um, early 70s, mid 70s, early 80s, UK.

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Um, very early on, I discovered that I was really interested in computers

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and soon after that I discovered I was really interested in neural networks.

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So I was building neural networks in secondary school, um, university, I

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studied computer science and cognitive science, and then I discovered my

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passion for entrepreneurialism.

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So I worked on some of the earliest sites for the BBC and News International,

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and then And then I built a massively multiplayer virtual world with,

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um, with a million users and then another one with 30 million users.

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And then I went from being a CTO for 15 years to being a CEO.

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I had a couple of companies, one did well, sold, one did really

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badly, lost a lot of money.

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Um, but that's where you learn all your lessons.

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And then I went on to, um, while working on that one, I discovered the 2011.

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Bitcoin and I bought a little bit and I thought it was really

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interesting technology, but I didn't think it was going to succeed.

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It was going to be squashed.

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Two years later after I'd sold, um, uh, my second company, uh, my soon

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to be co founder came up and said, we should set up a Bitcoin exchange here.

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And I was like, okay, this Bitcoin stuff in 2013 is still

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around and it's still around.

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Great tech staying in power.

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Let's do this.

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And ran the UK's longest running Bitcoin exchange.

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It started three people with a dream, and then we were 1.

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70 percent market share in the UK for eight years.

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The first to do this thing called provable solvency.

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We did it for the longest unbroken record.

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Listed, um, via Blockstream on the New York Stock Exchange, one of the first

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regulated, um, exchanges in Europe.

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Um, but that's when I realized over that eight years that one,

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um, regulation was eventually going to make it harder and harder and

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harder for people to self custody.

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The unintended consequence of that was certainly...

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Unhosted wallets and all that.

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Well, the onboarding experience was just going to get more and more and more.

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The UX was going to be...

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Um, more and more and more difficult and challenging and whatever the reasons

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for the regulation, this unintended consequence had to be resolved.

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And, um, I felt that it was important to find ways to get

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people to custody of exchanges.

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Um, but I also found that just human nature, people were...

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Most people, most people in the Bitcoin space are sort of like

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trails, trailblazers and so on.

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Um, but most people want safety and security and want what

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they can understand and so on.

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And so most people that we talk to from our customer base were very

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uncomfortable with self custody.

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And they trusted us more than they trusted themselves.

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And from that research and from those conversations, I realized

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that they trusted their friends and family more than they trusted us.

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Um, and the reason they came to us was normally from a recommendation

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from a friend or family.

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So, so that told you that the trust level was...

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Close friends and family, then strangers who advertise and show

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themselves to be really big and important and well structured, i.

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e.

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companies, and then themselves, almost a third, in terms of order.

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So, uh, that's where the seeds of the ideas, if there's a way to get

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people to at least trust them, use the sort of their, the power of their

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community, um, that could be interesting.

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And

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that's, that's how the idea for FedeMint

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was born.

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That's how my thinking about this approach to potentially getting people

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off exchanges came, but I didn't come up with the idea of FedeMint.

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Um, that was my co founder, um, Eric Sirian.

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Um, and he'd been working, so he's separately, he was, you know,

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pure, um, you know, cypherpunk, um, strong background in cryptography.

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He's An incredible guy.

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Very, very, very humble as well.

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Um, and he, his story.

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So we met in Hacker's Congress in Prague, but his story, the

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few years before that was, he was working on cryptography and so on.

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And as a cypherbunker, as a cryptographer, um, he was very

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interested in Charmy and E cash.

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Uh, and the way I describe it, it's like catnip to cryptographers.

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The idea of Charmy and E cash is an incredibly simple protocol.

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Um, this year it's 40 years, um, young.

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So it's been around for a long time, very mature.

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40 years?

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40 years.

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Oh, right.

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It predates, yeah, it's, it's, the idea came out, came out, was based

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on a paper that came out in 1983.

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Yeah,

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I always say that Bitcoin is not the first cryptocurrency,

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it's the last.

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Yeah, it's the last.

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So.

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Um, and it has a number of incredible properties with one downside.

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So, um, whereas Bitcoin doesn't have that downside and has very strong

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properties, but in some respects, not as strong as Zcash, the one that's

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most important, um, essentially resistance and decentralization,

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it's nothing could beat it.

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And that's, we now know is the most important criteria,

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but in terms of privacy.

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It's good, but, but e cash is in, technically it can be

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cryptographically near perfect privacy.

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It's also a very, very simple protocol.

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So it's really easy to understand.

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You can use easy analogies and people understand it.

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And the e cash you get as a result acts the way when you first heard about

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Bitcoin, you expect it to act like actually it acts like cash in your pocket.

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You have a file per coin.

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So if I want to send you, so it's a bearer instrument.

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Each file you, when you have e cash on your phone, it is literally on your phone.

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It's not on a blockchain.

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You'll have, if you have 10 e cash notes, each one being worth 0.

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1 Bitcoin, then you'll have 10 files of 0.

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1 Bitcoin.

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And if I want to send you 0.

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1, I will literally just take one of those and just.

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Send it to you.

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In any mean possible.

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Um, it does, it could be sent it over the internet.

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It could be sending it offline.

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It could be sending it through your screen.

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It could be however.

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So how do I know that you don't still

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have the file yourself?

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No, you, you don't know that.

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So that's where you still can go back to, that's where you, the mint is important.

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You go back to the mint.

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And tell them that it's proved that you have it and they can issue you a Newman.

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It's like going to the bank and getting a change.

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So, but again, conceptually, we understand these concepts of, okay, I've got some

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old dirty notes that have been used a lot.

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So I go to bank, get some fresh, fresh notes and they burn those ones.

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Then the question is, so it works, but it all requires trust.

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Yeah.

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In this mint.

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Yeah.

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And, um, so, um, all these great properties, but all require

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trust in the center actor.

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And he'd been thinking about this and he thought about a way of taking some

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of the concepts of from Blockstream and Liquid and federations and say,

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well, why can't I take this federation concept and apply it to Chammy and Ekesh?

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So federate the Chammy and Ekesh mint.

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So FedE Mint.

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Oh, right.

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So that's where the name comes from.

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But then you realize, okay, well, you've got that, but I also

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have to put value in and out.

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And so what is the money to that?

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Well, clearly you should use the best money there is, and that's Bitcoin.

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So you also have a federated.

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Wallet for Bitcoin.

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So when, and that effectively is a multi sig wallet.

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Okay.

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So, so, so Fedimin is not a Bitcoin specific, but you could like use

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it for anything.

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Fedimin is, so the idea came from the, from the passion to take Charmin e cash.

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And make that better.

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And the way to make it better is federated, as opposed to retrusting

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one single party, which was, which was the idea from 40 years ago.

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It's not new to have a single party, which I mean, it's a 40 year

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old idea, but the idea of making it federated was the new concept.

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And you'd think, okay, but if it's federated, but the money that you deposit

247
00:11:53,130 --> 00:11:57,320
in and out is not, so let's say someone deposits money in the bank and then.

248
00:11:57,610 --> 00:11:59,310
They issue this in a federated manner.

249
00:11:59,380 --> 00:12:03,820
It doesn't matter because the money's still, um, not federated, but Bitcoin

250
00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:08,090
is the first money that you could hold in a federated manner, i.

251
00:12:08,090 --> 00:12:08,290
e.

252
00:12:08,290 --> 00:12:08,610
multisig.

253
00:12:09,130 --> 00:12:11,920
Multiple people are simultaneously owning this.

254
00:12:12,230 --> 00:12:13,300
That wasn't possible before Bitcoin.

255
00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:14,230
You can't have...

256
00:12:14,675 --> 00:12:20,595
You know, 40 owned by four different people, each can have 10 each or, but

257
00:12:20,595 --> 00:12:24,475
you, unless they all holding 40 in their hand and said, I never move, go to the

258
00:12:24,475 --> 00:12:25,985
toilet together, go to sleep together.

259
00:12:26,255 --> 00:12:27,155
That's not practical.

260
00:12:27,195 --> 00:12:32,525
So at a distance, multiple people simultaneously collectively owning

261
00:12:32,525 --> 00:12:34,295
something only possible with Bitcoin.

262
00:12:34,635 --> 00:12:37,565
So, um, and prior to that, that wasn't possible.

263
00:12:37,595 --> 00:12:40,645
So it now made sense to federate the e cash mint because the

264
00:12:40,645 --> 00:12:41,785
money can also be federated.

265
00:12:42,115 --> 00:12:44,575
But then you think, okay, but sending Bitcoin around.

266
00:12:45,195 --> 00:12:50,405
If I do need to take money and, um, from this, uh, wallet and send it around.

267
00:12:51,075 --> 00:12:53,555
Bitcoin by itself is going to be slow, it's going to be expensive.

268
00:12:53,755 --> 00:12:57,155
So really to make the system practical, you also need to have

269
00:12:57,165 --> 00:12:58,685
federated lightning as well.

270
00:12:59,115 --> 00:13:03,075
So what he really built is a system where his intention was to build a

271
00:13:03,075 --> 00:13:04,565
system to federate Chime and eCash.

272
00:13:04,725 --> 00:13:08,475
What he built was a system to take any process you want and

273
00:13:08,475 --> 00:13:10,605
make it federatable, federated.

274
00:13:10,915 --> 00:13:14,815
Um, but clearly not, you don't want to do federated grand theft auto.

275
00:13:14,815 --> 00:13:18,595
It's not really important to have the overhead of federating, but you could,

276
00:13:18,645 --> 00:13:20,245
you could do federated grand theft auto.

277
00:13:20,245 --> 00:13:21,015
It's just wouldn't serve.

278
00:13:21,055 --> 00:13:24,965
So what it comes down to is things that would do with really important things.

279
00:13:24,995 --> 00:13:30,125
So money, maybe certain important data like passwords, you might want to federate

280
00:13:30,145 --> 00:13:33,885
that, you know, for example, backing up private keys across multiple as opposed

281
00:13:33,885 --> 00:13:38,965
to one, um, and also conversations instead of having it stored with.

282
00:13:39,250 --> 00:13:45,150
Just one provider like, um, um, WhatsApp or Telegram or WeChat having

283
00:13:45,190 --> 00:13:50,180
all access to all your conversations, you could instead federate the running

284
00:13:50,180 --> 00:13:52,270
of that, uh, to multiple people.

285
00:13:52,650 --> 00:13:56,550
So, so you, there could be other things, but the obvious ones are

286
00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,450
your communication, your money and certain sensitive data.

287
00:14:01,450 --> 00:14:03,460
You'd want it to be federated and shared.

288
00:14:04,455 --> 00:14:06,105
So how, how does that work though?

289
00:14:06,195 --> 00:14:10,645
Like what, what, how does the, what does the app look like?

290
00:14:10,645 --> 00:14:12,165
How do I federate

291
00:14:12,355 --> 00:14:12,885
information?

292
00:14:12,935 --> 00:14:18,105
I can, I can show you the app, um, but I don't know how it will look on the screen.

293
00:14:18,175 --> 00:14:21,580
But, um, Uh, so there's, there's two things.

294
00:14:21,740 --> 00:14:27,605
So first of all, there's the service that can take any process and federate it.

295
00:14:27,605 --> 00:14:30,970
And it comes a standard with, I should have worn my FedeMint t shirt,

296
00:14:31,020 --> 00:14:35,260
cause then you could see the code on my chest, but, um, it's, it,

297
00:14:35,530 --> 00:14:36,820
it, the first thing it does is it.

298
00:14:37,270 --> 00:14:42,310
Launches the federation and the way it does that is us, let's say

299
00:14:42,430 --> 00:14:48,050
there's a three of us plus one other and, and as we recommended minimum,

300
00:14:48,130 --> 00:14:53,730
you can have a federation of one, but then that's basically, I mean,

301
00:14:53,740 --> 00:14:55,480
it's, it's useful for testing.

302
00:14:55,845 --> 00:15:00,165
Um, if you want to, you know, developer, you want to test an idea because it

303
00:15:00,165 --> 00:15:03,495
will operate the same if it's one or it's four or if it's 50 years.

304
00:15:03,825 --> 00:15:05,905
So you, you develop and you start working on it.

305
00:15:05,905 --> 00:15:10,465
And then once you're happy, you can, you can, you can, um, expand, or if you

306
00:15:10,565 --> 00:15:13,165
only have one to begin with, you can start a process, but as it gets above

307
00:15:13,165 --> 00:15:16,465
a certain size, you can say, okay, let's add more and create a larger

308
00:15:16,465 --> 00:15:18,865
federation and a larger federation as your community expands, that could be useful.

309
00:15:18,865 --> 00:15:19,195
But let's say.

310
00:15:22,525 --> 00:15:24,625
The point where you start getting redundancy, i.

311
00:15:24,705 --> 00:15:24,785
e.

312
00:15:24,785 --> 00:15:27,175
protection from bad actors, is at four.

313
00:15:27,665 --> 00:15:32,385
So let's say we have four, four guardians, you would, um, we call them guardians,

314
00:15:32,385 --> 00:15:38,215
people who run it, they will download the FediMint software, um, and they will run

315
00:15:38,215 --> 00:15:43,245
it, and it will ask you how many other people, how many people in the federation.

316
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,180
And one of them, you can, it can be anybody.

317
00:15:46,180 --> 00:15:50,080
You can elect one to be the person who just fills in the form, basically.

318
00:15:50,540 --> 00:15:51,560
They all, anyone can do it.

319
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:52,320
It doesn't really matter.

320
00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:54,660
Um, they don't get any power from that.

321
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,650
They just get the admin work of writing the name of the federation, the number

322
00:15:58,650 --> 00:16:04,220
of people, say it's four, um, and then you, a description of the federation.

323
00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:05,360
That's pretty much it.

324
00:16:05,460 --> 00:16:10,175
There's a few of, uh, Do you want to just have money handled or do

325
00:16:10,175 --> 00:16:11,345
you want money in chat handled?

326
00:16:11,345 --> 00:16:16,605
And so a few things, it takes two minutes, depending on how quickly you type an

327
00:16:16,605 --> 00:16:18,115
average type of one minute to fill.

328
00:16:18,115 --> 00:16:21,725
It's like five questions on a form, um, about just telling you the information

329
00:16:21,725 --> 00:16:26,295
about the federation and you click go and it will, um, effectively.

330
00:16:26,690 --> 00:16:32,710
Give you the, it'll give you a string, which represents the federation and

331
00:16:32,710 --> 00:16:36,300
you take that string and you copy it and you send it to the other

332
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,980
four people and they paste that same string into their filaments.

333
00:16:40,420 --> 00:16:45,090
And that string allows that information allows them to find the other servers.

334
00:16:45,270 --> 00:16:49,310
So they connect up to the other servers and you'll wait.

335
00:16:49,810 --> 00:16:52,610
Three or four seconds later, hey, presto, federation formed.

336
00:16:53,390 --> 00:16:59,010
So at that point, the, each person's software is just running a little bit,

337
00:16:59,130 --> 00:17:00,680
but a little bit like a Bitcoin node.

338
00:17:00,995 --> 00:17:03,955
It's, it would just continue just to run, tick, tick, tick.

339
00:17:04,395 --> 00:17:07,565
You need to just keep that machine fed and watered with internet and

340
00:17:08,355 --> 00:17:09,255
electricity, a bit like a Bitcoin node.

341
00:17:09,695 --> 00:17:13,315
Um, and they will communicate with each other.

342
00:17:13,345 --> 00:17:17,535
And so they, they have a number of, of programs that are running

343
00:17:17,535 --> 00:17:19,025
on them that are federated.

344
00:17:19,075 --> 00:17:23,305
So all FedEments by default become a standard with

345
00:17:23,365 --> 00:17:25,415
Bitcoin Lightning and E cash.

346
00:17:27,285 --> 00:17:30,135
And so all of them will have Bitcoin Lightning and E cash and they will

347
00:17:30,155 --> 00:17:35,835
communicate with each other and it becomes this one federated E cash, federated

348
00:17:35,875 --> 00:17:37,715
Bitcoin, federated Lightning all running.

349
00:17:38,045 --> 00:17:40,595
So what that means now, for example, the federated Bitcoin

350
00:17:40,595 --> 00:17:45,435
will give you a deposit address, just like a, like a Bitcoin wallet.

351
00:17:46,145 --> 00:17:47,825
And you can say, I can send money to it.

352
00:17:48,005 --> 00:17:50,535
And, um, also you can.

353
00:17:50,965 --> 00:17:54,865
Um, it has an API as well, effectively an application program interface.

354
00:17:55,075 --> 00:18:01,405
So programs can use, um, this service to know when, when, when

355
00:18:01,415 --> 00:18:05,235
the federation has received money, ask it to send money and so on.

356
00:18:05,265 --> 00:18:06,945
It has to provide certain information.

357
00:18:07,325 --> 00:18:07,625
Yeah.

358
00:18:07,685 --> 00:18:11,375
So if it's, if I have a multisig on a fetti, like, uh, how does that work?

359
00:18:11,375 --> 00:18:14,915
If I wanna send the Bitcoin, does three outta four people have to send

360
00:18:14,915 --> 00:18:15,035
it?

361
00:18:15,215 --> 00:18:15,515
Yes.

362
00:18:15,875 --> 00:18:17,365
But, but the three outta four.

363
00:18:17,365 --> 00:18:18,335
Three out four.

364
00:18:18,395 --> 00:18:19,175
The Fed servers.

365
00:18:19,175 --> 00:18:19,295
Yeah.

366
00:18:19,385 --> 00:18:19,565
Yeah.

367
00:18:19,565 --> 00:18:23,925
So, so each server will recognize there's a request to send.

368
00:18:24,255 --> 00:18:28,215
See that you have the relevant, um, rights to send that money

369
00:18:28,305 --> 00:18:29,655
Uhhuh , as part of the request.

370
00:18:29,655 --> 00:18:31,335
You have to prove that you have the rights to send the money.

371
00:18:31,335 --> 00:18:31,606
You have to.

372
00:18:32,090 --> 00:18:35,990
Effectively provide the information needed to prove that, and once it sees

373
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,030
that you have the proof you have the right, it will also pass with your

374
00:18:39,030 --> 00:18:44,110
request where you want to send the money to, and then it will negotiate with the

375
00:18:44,110 --> 00:18:48,190
others, check that at least two of the other three have also confirmed that.

376
00:18:48,940 --> 00:18:53,120
And then once we've all confirmed, then they will collectively also sign together

377
00:18:53,150 --> 00:18:55,290
a transaction to send and publish.

378
00:18:55,450 --> 00:18:57,640
One of them will publish, it doesn't really matter, just round

379
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,880
robin between them, but that's all handled in the background.

380
00:19:01,150 --> 00:19:03,590
So it's like the simplest way to set up a multisig as well.

381
00:19:03,630 --> 00:19:06,580
If you wanted, even if you didn't want to, if you wanted to

382
00:19:06,580 --> 00:19:07,780
have a federation for yourself.

383
00:19:08,555 --> 00:19:11,595
You might find that's easier than to set up a multi sig for yourself, because

384
00:19:11,595 --> 00:19:14,575
it's just like, you download four pieces of program, you can put them all on

385
00:19:14,575 --> 00:19:17,655
the same machine, you can put them onto different machines, and then set up with

386
00:19:17,655 --> 00:19:20,565
one, click, click, click, and you know, you've got this multi sig, which you

387
00:19:20,565 --> 00:19:25,145
could use to receive and send, and if one of those machines was destroyed, it

388
00:19:25,145 --> 00:19:28,795
would recover and handle all of that, for example, or lost and so on, so.

389
00:19:29,005 --> 00:19:29,405
Yeah, I have a

390
00:19:29,405 --> 00:19:30,585
specific question about that.

391
00:19:30,645 --> 00:19:33,745
Like, how would the, how are the Bitcoin addresses then stored?

392
00:19:33,755 --> 00:19:36,535
Like, if someone gets access to the computer where the software

393
00:19:36,535 --> 00:19:41,275
is running, is it, is it, Can, can they just have the, the private key

394
00:19:41,455 --> 00:19:41,815
there?

395
00:19:41,815 --> 00:19:43,225
Is that sort of how that works?

396
00:19:43,230 --> 00:19:44,845
Or the com, the computer where it's running?

397
00:19:44,905 --> 00:19:49,855
Um, well it depends on how the computer's set up, but, um, funda, fundamentally,

398
00:19:49,855 --> 00:19:53,965
if a computer is compromised, um, then you can have access to the keys on it.

399
00:19:53,965 --> 00:19:56,935
Just in case of, uh, hot wallet's compromised, you can

400
00:19:56,935 --> 00:19:57,955
access, access the keys to it.

401
00:19:57,955 --> 00:19:59,465
So it's similar, but it's a multisig.

402
00:19:59,465 --> 00:20:02,215
So, but everybody, you would have to compromise multiple of them.

403
00:20:02,215 --> 00:20:03,865
And if it was seven, you have to compromise.

404
00:20:04,390 --> 00:20:09,090
You'd have to compromise at least two to be able to prevent this, well,

405
00:20:09,110 --> 00:20:14,370
no, at least three to be able to prevent the system, um, from being

406
00:20:14,370 --> 00:20:17,520
able to create new transactions, but you still couldn't take anything.

407
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:22,660
You'd have to compromise, um, five of the seven to be able to take money.

408
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,580
But you'd have to compromise three of the seven to be able to prevent

409
00:20:27,970 --> 00:20:29,850
the others from spending the money.

410
00:20:30,945 --> 00:20:32,785
And how do you find peers?

411
00:20:32,855 --> 00:20:36,495
Like, how do you find the other parties to, to feddy with?

412
00:20:37,105 --> 00:20:38,765
To form the

413
00:20:38,765 --> 00:20:39,445
federation.

414
00:20:40,395 --> 00:20:40,845
Yeah, it's

415
00:20:40,845 --> 00:20:42,815
a rating system or something like?

416
00:20:42,865 --> 00:20:49,065
Um, so the idea, this is where, this is where, um, we, we collided.

417
00:20:49,145 --> 00:20:52,115
Um, so he was working on this idea.

418
00:20:52,825 --> 00:20:57,215
Um, and he was thinking about it, um, technically as, okay, I can federate this.

419
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,500
Um, uh, charm me a mint.

420
00:21:00,650 --> 00:21:03,170
And also I should federate Bitcoin as well, which is already done

421
00:21:03,170 --> 00:21:04,640
Multisig and federate lightning.

422
00:21:04,670 --> 00:21:07,660
And now it makes this cohesive idea Bitcoin Lightning and Fed.

423
00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:13,760
And, um, you know, other, um, peoples really liked this idea.

424
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,330
He got, initially, the first people to sort of hear it was Blockstream

425
00:21:17,335 --> 00:21:19,220
Uhhuh, and they started sponsoring him.

426
00:21:20,595 --> 00:21:27,665
I think over a year before I, I met him and, um, also they use the people who

427
00:21:27,665 --> 00:21:31,125
worked on Liquid, which was another form of federation, gave him input on this.

428
00:21:31,685 --> 00:21:35,305
Um, so he was able to take that and build something which had similar

429
00:21:35,305 --> 00:21:38,735
properties, but focused on being really, really, really easy to set up and run.

430
00:21:38,735 --> 00:21:39,845
That was the difference of focus.

431
00:21:40,115 --> 00:21:44,925
So he, he had that, but he wasn't really thinking about the, the sort of the.

432
00:21:45,585 --> 00:21:49,135
Logistical aspect of, okay, how do you form the federations?

433
00:21:49,215 --> 00:21:52,085
It's like they are fed, this is, this is software that allows us to happen,

434
00:21:52,405 --> 00:21:55,355
but the actual creating a federation, who should be, who should be the people

435
00:21:55,355 --> 00:21:57,885
running it, that was different from him.

436
00:21:57,905 --> 00:22:02,885
While I was looking for, uh, I had this insight that, um, communities were.

437
00:22:03,210 --> 00:22:10,370
Potentially a powerful new, um, unit for running, um, for, for, uh, working with

438
00:22:10,550 --> 00:22:15,480
Bitcoin as opposed to the individual or very large, um, strangers, uh, centralized

439
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,090
strangers and nothing in between.

440
00:22:17,350 --> 00:22:21,290
You have this community of second parties, people that you know, friends and family.

441
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,150
So, um, and so when I met him in Hacker's Congress by pure luck,

442
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,620
cause we live in different circles, um, he's like pure, you know.

443
00:22:31,115 --> 00:22:37,245
Alpha, Alpha, CryptoPunk, um, Cypherpunk Circles, and mine was more commercial,

444
00:22:37,665 --> 00:22:41,275
but I was in the middle of selling my last company and I just thought, okay,

445
00:22:41,645 --> 00:22:42,945
I can finally go to Hacker's Congress.

446
00:22:42,955 --> 00:22:46,255
When you're running a regulated financial institution, it's very,

447
00:22:46,265 --> 00:22:49,835
it's not a, it's, you'll get asked lots of questions if you decide to

448
00:22:49,875 --> 00:22:51,015
go to Hacker's Congress, you know?

449
00:22:51,395 --> 00:22:54,225
So, but now that I was selling it, I was like, finally, I don't, I can just

450
00:22:54,265 --> 00:22:55,835
go to something I wanted to go to.

451
00:22:55,835 --> 00:22:58,045
So I went for the first time and.

452
00:22:58,510 --> 00:23:01,750
Trans encounter, you just meet people, started talking, I explained

453
00:23:01,770 --> 00:23:05,370
what I was trying to do, explained some of the ideas I had at the time.

454
00:23:05,870 --> 00:23:08,770
He politely explained why they were really bad ideas, technically.

455
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,880
And, but it was also just very impressive how he could explain

456
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:19,110
it, be very clear about it, but not like, but be diplomatic as well.

457
00:23:19,510 --> 00:23:23,260
Um, and then I asked him what he was working on and he started explaining and

458
00:23:23,260 --> 00:23:25,720
I thought this was a very interesting idea and then it just clicked.

459
00:23:26,955 --> 00:23:29,305
This is the way to solve my problem, actually.

460
00:23:29,745 --> 00:23:36,695
Um, and, um, but the, the, the missing piece was community that if you find,

461
00:23:36,775 --> 00:23:41,205
if you find and focus on communities, whether it be a company for internal

462
00:23:41,205 --> 00:23:46,355
companies, that's a community or a village or a family, and who regularly

463
00:23:46,915 --> 00:23:51,075
have an uncle Jim, who's handling custody for the children or the grandparents

464
00:23:51,085 --> 00:23:52,460
and so on, they're all a community.

465
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,470
Different forms of community.

466
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:55,910
So how do you find people?

467
00:23:55,930 --> 00:23:57,130
Well, then the answer is obvious.

468
00:23:57,220 --> 00:23:59,730
If it's your community, you've already found them.

469
00:23:59,730 --> 00:24:04,160
It's not KYC, it's KYF, know your friend, know your family.

470
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,920
You've already spent your entire life already knowing them.

471
00:24:08,270 --> 00:24:10,925
And there'll be some people you really love, but you wouldn't know them.

472
00:24:11,275 --> 00:24:14,075
Trust them as far as you can throw them, you know, and, and there'll

473
00:24:14,075 --> 00:24:16,805
be other, whether it's because they're untrustworthy or whether

474
00:24:16,805 --> 00:24:21,185
it's because they just not really technically complimental enough to it.

475
00:24:21,415 --> 00:24:22,665
And there's other people, you know.

476
00:24:23,370 --> 00:24:28,140
You probably think these people could be trustworthy enough and combine

477
00:24:28,140 --> 00:24:33,070
that with the fact that 30 minutes are incredibly simple to set up.

478
00:24:33,130 --> 00:24:34,010
No, that's the target.

479
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,730
I mean, it's, it's a year ago and I'm talking about, it was still quite

480
00:24:37,730 --> 00:24:40,810
a complex thing to set up, but the vision was, it was going to be easy.

481
00:24:40,810 --> 00:24:43,790
And, and what we've been doing really hard over the last year

482
00:24:43,790 --> 00:24:44,820
is getting it easier and easier.

483
00:24:44,860 --> 00:24:45,570
So now.

484
00:24:45,945 --> 00:24:49,965
It was just a demo right to one sort of organization just yesterday.

485
00:24:49,965 --> 00:24:53,475
It was amazing because it used to require a skilled technician,

486
00:24:53,895 --> 00:24:55,425
you know, a day to set up one.

487
00:24:55,425 --> 00:25:00,095
But now we just clicked a button at the beginning of the, of the, of the talk and

488
00:25:00,095 --> 00:25:02,095
we fill in the form, click the button.

489
00:25:02,415 --> 00:25:03,975
And then we'll come back to that.

490
00:25:03,975 --> 00:25:08,355
And we did the presentation for like 10 minutes and, and it set itself up.

491
00:25:08,770 --> 00:25:13,130
And I go, to prove it works, you took an app, the Feddy app, but it

492
00:25:13,130 --> 00:25:16,330
could be any other app, just like the multiple lightning apps and multiple

493
00:25:16,330 --> 00:25:21,350
Bitcoin apps, scan the QR code and you would, you'd join the federation.

494
00:25:21,470 --> 00:25:26,530
So it's 10 minutes and one click pretty much to set up a federation now.

495
00:25:26,890 --> 00:25:30,250
Um, as at the, at the, and we think we can get it down to two minutes

496
00:25:30,460 --> 00:25:33,380
and well, you just have to have at least one click, you don't have to

497
00:25:33,380 --> 00:25:35,610
download it and click go pretty much.

498
00:25:35,610 --> 00:25:36,040
That's it.

499
00:25:36,570 --> 00:25:37,120
I mean, this is,

500
00:25:37,390 --> 00:25:40,720
this is so fascinating because the way I see it, this don't trust

501
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,440
verify attitude in Bitcoin, it.

502
00:25:44,050 --> 00:25:49,660
Over time it creates a layer of trust between bitcoiners, like we, we, we

503
00:25:49,660 --> 00:25:51,680
trust each other to a larger extent.

504
00:25:51,700 --> 00:25:56,150
Like if someone on Twitter DMs me and say, Hey, you want to go to Mexico?

505
00:25:56,150 --> 00:25:57,200
Like, uh, sure.

506
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,500
Yeah, but this could be a random person, but you now know this.

507
00:26:01,620 --> 00:26:02,310
Yeah, because

508
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:03,830
the proof of work or for the person or like.

509
00:26:06,395 --> 00:26:10,175
The interactions you've had with them on Twitter or anything else over the years.

510
00:26:10,205 --> 00:26:15,495
It's sort of Bitcoin has become trustworthy because it becomes easier

511
00:26:15,495 --> 00:26:17,625
to, to like weed out the bad seeds.

512
00:26:17,965 --> 00:26:20,555
If someone starts shit coining or something like, ah, I'm

513
00:26:20,565 --> 00:26:21,585
not going to trust that guy.

514
00:26:21,745 --> 00:26:25,845
So, so ironically don't trust verify leads to more trust.

515
00:26:26,985 --> 00:26:33,785
I think, I think, um, I think you had this sort of process of maturation of Bitcoin.

516
00:26:33,835 --> 00:26:34,015
Yeah.

517
00:26:34,055 --> 00:26:34,635
So I think.

518
00:26:35,070 --> 00:26:40,680
It was absolutely important to have the base layer to start with, don't trust

519
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,280
verify, because we were living in a world at that time, and we still are, but it's

520
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,490
changing because of what we're doing.

521
00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:52,570
But we were living in a world of, um, don't verify, just blindly trust.

522
00:26:52,980 --> 00:26:55,160
That's the world we were living in.

523
00:26:55,450 --> 00:26:59,480
And so you needed to have a very, very clear counter to that.

524
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,260
And you didn't want to have any uncertainty.

525
00:27:02,260 --> 00:27:02,280
Thank you.

526
00:27:02,820 --> 00:27:06,540
Any caveating, any, it needs to be a clear message.

527
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,240
So it needs to be, don't trust, verify, and that should be

528
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:10,290
the base and the foundation.

529
00:27:10,290 --> 00:27:16,380
And that should be, um, but, um, over time now it's gaining traction

530
00:27:16,380 --> 00:27:19,670
and people understanding that we can now actually explain that.

531
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:26,520
The ideal is to trust, but also verify to do both.

532
00:27:26,570 --> 00:27:29,980
And in fact, actually, you know, I was supposed to give you those dog tags,

533
00:27:30,010 --> 00:27:32,320
um, from the, the bad boating club.

534
00:27:32,380 --> 00:27:33,200
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

535
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:39,180
And I didn't keep it because it was like, yeah, but I still, I've got to say, but

536
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:44,030
maybe because I just like it for myself because it's 21 divided by infinity.

537
00:27:44,395 --> 00:27:47,065
And that's, that was what was stamped on the other way around, right?

538
00:27:47,125 --> 00:27:51,605
Yeah, so infinity divided by 21, sorry, you were right, I was, I was testing you.

539
00:27:52,135 --> 00:27:56,395
Um, but, uh, but you, you, you still remember that, that's good.

540
00:27:56,495 --> 00:27:56,915
Yeah, yeah.

541
00:27:58,235 --> 00:27:59,430
Um, but, but, um.

542
00:27:59,650 --> 00:28:02,550
Um, my one was trust and also verify.

543
00:28:02,590 --> 00:28:03,370
Trust and verify.

544
00:28:03,430 --> 00:28:03,560
Yeah.

545
00:28:03,830 --> 00:28:06,680
So trust is a very, very powerful tool.

546
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:07,780
It makes things more efficient.

547
00:28:07,780 --> 00:28:08,180
It is, it is.

548
00:28:08,230 --> 00:28:12,150
So, um, however, um, and to not trust to go through a world of not

549
00:28:12,150 --> 00:28:14,130
trusting anybody, no, no one does that.

550
00:28:14,470 --> 00:28:17,050
Even the most ardent persons who don't trust verify will.

551
00:28:17,795 --> 00:28:20,695
The very fact of their day to day existence, they'll be trusting

552
00:28:20,695 --> 00:28:23,165
thousands of different people, whether they realize it or not.

553
00:28:23,175 --> 00:28:26,055
When they eat food, they have to trust that the food is not being poisoned.

554
00:28:26,355 --> 00:28:28,045
You know, drink water hasn't been poisoned.

555
00:28:28,055 --> 00:28:28,215
When

556
00:28:28,215 --> 00:28:29,335
you cross a bridge, you need to

557
00:28:29,335 --> 00:28:30,265
trust the engineer.

558
00:28:30,265 --> 00:28:32,515
Yeah, so you're gonna, you're going to need to trust.

559
00:28:33,085 --> 00:28:36,595
Um, otherwise you're just gonna be in a hole, not talking to anyone.

560
00:28:36,865 --> 00:28:38,415
But, that being the case...

561
00:28:38,865 --> 00:28:43,435
You should also build up the habit of verifying them.

562
00:28:43,735 --> 00:28:47,345
And so I think that's the, that's the sort of the Nostr.

563
00:28:48,015 --> 00:28:52,535
Um, and where that, where that meets is I think at community.

564
00:28:52,625 --> 00:28:52,935
Yeah,

565
00:28:52,985 --> 00:28:54,705
there's another aspect to it.

566
00:28:54,705 --> 00:29:00,545
Like, uh, the, um, Bitcoin removing the profitability from violent behavior.

567
00:29:00,915 --> 00:29:02,915
So, so since if.

568
00:29:03,395 --> 00:29:10,845
If most of my wealth is in my head, as in keeping a secret or owning a Bitcoin, uh,

569
00:29:11,245 --> 00:29:13,525
if you kill me, you don't get anything.

570
00:29:13,935 --> 00:29:18,245
So you're like moving the shelling point of violence, like, uh, and that, that

571
00:29:18,255 --> 00:29:22,845
in itself, that very concept of Bitcoin being, Bitcoin's being very hard to

572
00:29:22,995 --> 00:29:28,005
steal, uh, from people who know how to store them properly, especially if you

573
00:29:28,005 --> 00:29:31,355
have a multi sig set up in different countries and all this stuff is, it's

574
00:29:31,355 --> 00:29:37,680
quite hard to get another And that, in a way, creates more trust because

575
00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:42,490
you know that the guy you're trusting doesn't have the incentive to attack

576
00:29:42,490 --> 00:29:44,380
you in the same way as they do in fiat.

577
00:29:44,770 --> 00:29:46,060
You think there's something to that?

578
00:29:46,570 --> 00:29:51,420
Yeah, I think incentives are really important and you're right, it's making

579
00:29:51,420 --> 00:29:53,840
it as difficult as possible to be able to.

580
00:29:54,315 --> 00:30:01,045
Um, take it from you is, is important and that's why there's, that's why the best

581
00:30:01,145 --> 00:30:05,185
possible, and that's also important to be clear, the best possible is to have

582
00:30:05,185 --> 00:30:10,035
something which is trust minimized, self custody is, is the best possible at this

583
00:30:10,035 --> 00:30:15,355
point, although Um, if we can get, and our objective is always to keep analyzing

584
00:30:15,365 --> 00:30:21,325
this, but if we can get the efforts to custody within the community, um, to

585
00:30:21,325 --> 00:30:23,485
be close to that, we, we work on that.

586
00:30:23,535 --> 00:30:29,335
So we work, we, I said, I had a background in provable solvency for eight years.

587
00:30:29,435 --> 00:30:30,335
Um, so.

588
00:30:30,935 --> 00:30:35,315
So, really early on, we, I think it was about a year, even a few

589
00:30:35,315 --> 00:30:40,055
months of meeting, we discussed how to, um, add proof of, um, proof of

590
00:30:40,055 --> 00:30:43,025
reserves to, to FediMint as well.

591
00:30:43,085 --> 00:30:45,185
So we've been working on that in the background for the last year.

592
00:30:45,185 --> 00:30:48,355
There's many things we, we tend to just work on it quietly and

593
00:30:48,355 --> 00:30:49,495
then when it's ready, release.

594
00:30:49,525 --> 00:30:53,915
But so all these things are important and there's always new

595
00:30:53,925 --> 00:30:56,435
innovations and technologies in the Bitcoin space, which will.

596
00:30:56,700 --> 00:30:59,530
Make that even closer and closer and closer to the experience of

597
00:30:59,530 --> 00:31:02,160
lightning and maybe even closer to the experience of self custody.

598
00:31:02,874 --> 00:31:04,884
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599
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600
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601
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602
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603
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604
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605
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606
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607
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608
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609
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610
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611
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612
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613
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614
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615
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616
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617
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618
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619
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620
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621
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622
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623
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624
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625
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626
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628
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629
00:32:30,972 --> 00:32:33,552
I have a couple of follow on questions here.

630
00:32:33,562 --> 00:32:36,982
First of all, that provable solvency thing, I think you explained that,

631
00:32:37,262 --> 00:32:42,632
but I sort of have a question about like, how does the e cash actually

632
00:32:42,882 --> 00:32:48,077
get created and then How does that get used, uh, outside of the federation?

633
00:32:48,077 --> 00:32:51,287
Because this is, this is sort of the, the point that, uh, I, I

634
00:32:51,287 --> 00:32:55,727
understood, uh, that you have the guardians that are in control of, uh,

635
00:32:56,627 --> 00:33:03,837
multisig, uh, Bitcoin, um, uh, Federated lightning, for want of a better phrase,

636
00:33:04,447 --> 00:33:07,357
um, and obviously the federated e cash.

637
00:33:07,397 --> 00:33:10,027
And any other application that you want to federate, they would

638
00:33:10,037 --> 00:33:11,457
be in control of running those.

639
00:33:11,677 --> 00:33:12,537
So they're in control of

640
00:33:12,537 --> 00:33:14,267
it, but then there are the members, I think.

641
00:33:14,307 --> 00:33:16,677
That's the point to be.

642
00:33:16,677 --> 00:33:17,627
Yes, sure, sure,

643
00:33:17,627 --> 00:33:17,987
sure.

644
00:33:18,007 --> 00:33:20,687
Because members could mean guardians or the users.

645
00:33:20,687 --> 00:33:23,317
So it's like, I just say users and guardians, yeah.

646
00:33:23,662 --> 00:33:23,912
Okay.

647
00:33:23,912 --> 00:33:26,142
So you have the users, right?

648
00:33:26,342 --> 00:33:30,622
And so how does, how, what's the mechanism of, of getting, uh, something

649
00:33:30,622 --> 00:33:36,142
deposited into the federation, uh, into the hands of those, those users?

650
00:33:36,142 --> 00:33:37,342
How do they, how do they join?

651
00:33:37,512 --> 00:33:40,542
This is really 80 IQ question here, or 85.

652
00:33:40,542 --> 00:33:40,872
I don't know.

653
00:33:41,252 --> 00:33:44,132
No, no, that's, that's, that's a good question.

654
00:33:44,512 --> 00:33:51,072
So, so there's a few things you say, how do you get, um, money

655
00:33:51,142 --> 00:33:52,802
into the system and how they join?

656
00:33:52,862 --> 00:33:55,007
So, Let me first say how you join.

657
00:33:55,047 --> 00:34:01,227
To, to join, you just need to know the, um, the details of the guardians.

658
00:34:01,317 --> 00:34:04,277
So you need to have the address of the federation effectively.

659
00:34:04,657 --> 00:34:10,897
Um, it's, you can think of it a bit like, uh, um, an, an internet URL web

660
00:34:10,897 --> 00:34:15,387
address, almost like, so as long as you can know that and you get that

661
00:34:15,387 --> 00:34:19,277
from another, again, it depends on the federation, how they set it up.

662
00:34:19,327 --> 00:34:20,817
Sometimes only the.

663
00:34:21,297 --> 00:34:25,577
Guardians can allow, um, give that address to people and they're the only

664
00:34:25,577 --> 00:34:26,757
ones who can allow people to join.

665
00:34:26,967 --> 00:34:31,437
Or, um, the default way is anyone who's a member can pass on the details to

666
00:34:31,667 --> 00:34:33,487
someone else, so it can be very viral.

667
00:34:33,797 --> 00:34:37,667
You have connected to the Federation, and in the Federation details would

668
00:34:37,677 --> 00:34:39,767
be the address of the Federation, which you can display as a QR

669
00:34:39,797 --> 00:34:40,967
code and you give to someone else.

670
00:34:41,542 --> 00:34:42,582
And they can just scan.

671
00:34:42,882 --> 00:34:45,062
So as long as you have the address, you can join.

672
00:34:45,312 --> 00:34:46,012
And, and a

673
00:34:46,282 --> 00:34:50,742
thing here, as far as choosing to join a federation, that it only

674
00:34:50,742 --> 00:34:53,312
makes sense to join federations where you trust the guardians.

675
00:34:53,522 --> 00:34:53,782
Yes.

676
00:34:54,052 --> 00:34:57,922
Yeah, that's, that's what, I mean, I mean, does it make sense to join it

677
00:34:57,922 --> 00:34:58,902
where you don't trust the guardians?

678
00:34:59,002 --> 00:35:02,462
I don't know, but it does make sense to join ones where you trust.

679
00:35:02,802 --> 00:35:05,122
And, but, but then you have degrees of trust.

680
00:35:05,232 --> 00:35:08,432
And again, you use your human intuition on...

681
00:35:08,737 --> 00:35:12,237
The trust levels, uh, about understanding, knowing your friends, knowing your

682
00:35:12,237 --> 00:35:14,147
family to determine how much you hold.

683
00:35:14,147 --> 00:35:16,137
Cause you can be a member of multiple federations.

684
00:35:16,717 --> 00:35:17,027
Yeah.

685
00:35:17,067 --> 00:35:20,787
And so just like I can visit multiple websites, you know, and,

686
00:35:20,827 --> 00:35:25,357
um, I can be a member of multiple federations and it might be on one.

687
00:35:25,537 --> 00:35:28,397
I store very small amounts, but.

688
00:35:28,997 --> 00:35:33,247
It might have lots of guardians and lots of other users, um, because it's, I'm

689
00:35:33,247 --> 00:35:35,477
going to come back to the other part of your question soon, because it's related.

690
00:35:35,987 --> 00:35:40,427
Um, and so there's benefits for me to use that, but I might only hold the amount

691
00:35:40,427 --> 00:35:45,887
of money I would, um, keep for, if I'm going out and I, and I put in my wallet.

692
00:35:46,037 --> 00:35:49,377
So, so worst case, if I get pickpocketed, I lose.

693
00:35:50,442 --> 00:35:53,382
Uh, you know, um, an evening's worth of money.

694
00:35:53,652 --> 00:35:59,322
Whereas, um, ones where it could be set up by my friends and family or, and Uncle

695
00:35:59,322 --> 00:36:05,022
Jims and, and Auntie Janet's or whatever the female criminal uncle Jim is, , um,

696
00:36:05,582 --> 00:36:09,452
if that one, I might store a lot more value because I've known them for my

697
00:36:09,452 --> 00:36:14,492
entire life and, or, or, and they've been consistent, et cetera, and I, I might

698
00:36:14,497 --> 00:36:15,872
saw more there and then there might be.

699
00:36:18,637 --> 00:36:23,997
Sorry, there might be a, um, company and all of its employees already, um,

700
00:36:24,237 --> 00:36:31,627
the company is in, um, is, uh, relying on and trusting the senior executive

701
00:36:31,687 --> 00:36:35,147
in the company to look after the money of the company already, by definition.

702
00:36:35,707 --> 00:36:39,067
The C F O and the c e o and so on could run off of the money.

703
00:36:39,307 --> 00:36:44,977
So, uh, you might as well consider putting in a, in a federation for if you

704
00:36:44,977 --> 00:36:46,687
have it, maintaining a Bitcoin treasury.

705
00:36:47,017 --> 00:36:52,228
And if people have expenses in Bitcoin, well, in which case you can have those

706
00:36:52,677 --> 00:36:54,057
run through a federation and fed.

707
00:36:55,697 --> 00:36:58,537
And, but now you have a multisig set up for your company as

708
00:36:58,537 --> 00:36:59,577
another form of community.

709
00:36:59,967 --> 00:37:02,827
So, and then it's a different amount of money will be stored there.

710
00:37:02,907 --> 00:37:06,707
So you would store the amounts based on who the people are.

711
00:37:06,927 --> 00:37:07,987
So, so how does

712
00:37:07,987 --> 00:37:09,757
it, how does it scale though?

713
00:37:09,947 --> 00:37:14,047
Like, is there a, um, some form of vouching system or rating

714
00:37:14,057 --> 00:37:15,627
system where people in one

715
00:37:15,627 --> 00:37:16,997
federation can recommend?

716
00:37:16,997 --> 00:37:20,032
What's the rating system for your, for your family?

717
00:37:20,082 --> 00:37:23,342
No, no, but you have family A here.

718
00:37:23,342 --> 00:37:24,222
But you have a rating?

719
00:37:24,232 --> 00:37:24,412
No.

720
00:37:24,412 --> 00:37:31,372
But in terms of, so the question is, within your community, you already know.

721
00:37:31,452 --> 00:37:32,952
So it's outside of the size of the community.

722
00:37:33,152 --> 00:37:35,572
Outside of the community, it doesn't scale.

723
00:37:36,102 --> 00:37:38,212
So that's, and that's a feature, not a bug.

724
00:37:38,432 --> 00:37:43,102
Because it means that you don't have this, um, we don't expect to see one monolithic.

725
00:37:43,527 --> 00:37:49,427
Um, you know, rollup or sidechain or so on, what everybody in the world uses, and

726
00:37:49,457 --> 00:37:53,207
with five people or 10 people or a hundred people running it, instead, you're going

727
00:37:53,207 --> 00:37:58,997
to have just like how many communities are there, how many families, how many towns,

728
00:37:58,997 --> 00:38:03,267
villages, and how many companies are there worldwide, millions, and you want to see

729
00:38:03,597 --> 00:38:08,507
millions of these fediments, but, but, and to your previous question, the e cash,

730
00:38:08,762 --> 00:38:11,662
It's only usable within that community.

731
00:38:11,692 --> 00:38:15,542
However, if I want to send it from one community to another, that's

732
00:38:15,542 --> 00:38:17,772
where Bitcoin and Lightning comes in.

733
00:38:17,772 --> 00:38:24,132
I have to convert that e cash back into, um, Bitcoin or Lightning Bitcoin

734
00:38:24,232 --> 00:38:28,542
and send it over the Lightning network to someone else, either on, who's

735
00:38:28,542 --> 00:38:31,412
on main chain or on the Lightning network directly because they, they.

736
00:38:31,827 --> 00:38:34,497
They're self custodial or they're running their own lightning node or so on.

737
00:38:34,737 --> 00:38:38,517
Or there could be someone in another federation and it will go from Ash,

738
00:38:38,727 --> 00:38:43,577
my federation, which is, uh, which is, um, acceptable within anybody

739
00:38:43,577 --> 00:38:47,597
within my community or even my company or even my family, to lightning.

740
00:38:48,157 --> 00:38:51,097
And then it'll go over the Lightning Network to another federation, which

741
00:38:51,127 --> 00:38:55,717
then gets converted by the federations there to ash and, and on a balance.

742
00:38:55,717 --> 00:38:58,087
But from our experience from the ux.

743
00:38:58,797 --> 00:39:05,447
The UX will be, I open up my app, um, and there's, there's, there, there was, um,

744
00:39:05,767 --> 00:39:14,567
there was, uh, uh, I'm trying to remember, there was, uh, a FediMint wallet.

745
00:39:14,797 --> 00:39:18,337
I'm trying to remember the name, but there's a new one called, uh, WebbyMint.

746
00:39:18,527 --> 00:39:21,187
And then there's Fedi, is the one we're working on.

747
00:39:21,507 --> 00:39:25,187
So there are different implementations of FediMint, um, or FediMint protocol.

748
00:39:25,587 --> 00:39:26,567
So I could take my wallet.

749
00:39:27,612 --> 00:39:34,172
See yours, you give me a QR code that can look like a Lightning, it

750
00:39:34,172 --> 00:39:35,852
will look like a Lightning invoice.

751
00:39:36,392 --> 00:39:38,992
I scan it in the same way I would do with any other Lightning wallet.

752
00:39:39,587 --> 00:39:42,457
And my balance will go down and yours will go up.

753
00:39:42,797 --> 00:39:47,047
You're on a different federation or it could be a Breeze

754
00:39:47,047 --> 00:39:49,167
wallet or any other wallet.

755
00:39:49,297 --> 00:39:53,857
You show me the QR code and the lightning address and I will pay it.

756
00:39:54,197 --> 00:39:57,947
And it doesn't, the details of whether it's converting or so on is

757
00:39:58,017 --> 00:40:01,907
all happening automatically because you've got these federations running

758
00:40:01,907 --> 00:40:04,747
this code 24 7 in the background.

759
00:40:04,797 --> 00:40:06,627
And they could be sleeping while it's doing it.

760
00:40:07,097 --> 00:40:09,407
So long as they make sure that machine is protected and it's

761
00:40:09,457 --> 00:40:12,227
fed in water with electricity and internet, it all just works.

762
00:40:12,847 --> 00:40:14,317
So that's how it scales.

763
00:40:14,407 --> 00:40:15,437
The Lightning Network makes

764
00:40:15,437 --> 00:40:15,507
it scale.

765
00:40:15,547 --> 00:40:18,667
Okay, so Bitcoin scales Feddy and not the other way around.

766
00:40:20,547 --> 00:40:22,767
Bitcoin scales Feddy and Feddy scales Bitcoin.

767
00:40:22,967 --> 00:40:26,957
I did a talk last year in an Afro Bitcoin conference that said,

768
00:40:27,357 --> 00:40:30,867
Africa wins with Bitcoin's help and Bitcoin wins with Africa's help.

769
00:40:31,557 --> 00:40:32,147
Yeah, yeah.

770
00:40:32,557 --> 00:40:34,487
But this is actually another one of these things.

771
00:40:34,957 --> 00:40:38,307
Lightning, without lightning, you're going to have tens of thousands of

772
00:40:38,307 --> 00:40:42,937
these islands that were with, but lightning, on the other hand, there

773
00:40:42,937 --> 00:40:48,747
was a talk the other day, um, in, um, Bitcoin Amsterdam with, um, a number of

774
00:40:48,767 --> 00:40:53,327
people on scaling lightning and their calculations was you can get to maybe

775
00:40:53,617 --> 00:40:58,917
10 million, maybe 20 million people using the Lightning Network directly.

776
00:40:59,147 --> 00:40:59,327
Yeah.

777
00:40:59,327 --> 00:41:03,127
But if each, if, if, if a million of those were federations, each one's

778
00:41:03,127 --> 00:41:08,747
with, you know, somewhere between five people to 50, 000 people on them.

779
00:41:08,897 --> 00:41:10,707
Now that scales to billions of people.

780
00:41:10,737 --> 00:41:11,427
So what's, what's

781
00:41:11,497 --> 00:41:14,657
the limit of a federated, like how big can it be?

782
00:41:14,957 --> 00:41:17,877
Uh, does it have to do with Dunbar's number?

783
00:41:18,067 --> 00:41:18,167
It's

784
00:41:18,167 --> 00:41:20,327
like, no, no, it doesn't have to do.

785
00:41:20,377 --> 00:41:22,927
I mean, technically yes and no, actually.

786
00:41:23,142 --> 00:41:27,872
Um, on a technical level, you could get to hundreds of thousands.

787
00:41:29,472 --> 00:41:33,652
Um, but on a practical level, because of the fact that it's going to be people

788
00:41:33,652 --> 00:41:37,812
that you trust and so on, we, we expect that number to be lower because it's

789
00:41:37,862 --> 00:41:42,452
the trust limit is going to actually prevent it getting above a certain size.

790
00:41:42,932 --> 00:41:47,052
Um, but you could have somewhere people will be very large, but people

791
00:41:47,052 --> 00:41:51,262
will store small amounts on like a spending wallet, which, and your

792
00:41:51,282 --> 00:41:53,682
anonymity sets, um, uh, or your.

793
00:41:53,957 --> 00:41:58,107
Protect your privacy set, I think is a better way of putting it, um, is

794
00:41:58,107 --> 00:42:03,077
limited to the number of people in the federation, but, but basically you

795
00:42:03,077 --> 00:42:06,927
could be a family, it could be a size of one, you could just set up, you might

796
00:42:06,927 --> 00:42:11,507
want to do this as a simple way, or an alternative way of setting up a multi

797
00:42:11,507 --> 00:42:16,717
sig for yourself, and you have, um, four nodes, in fact, someone just the other

798
00:42:16,717 --> 00:42:20,267
day showed a FedEmint running on a mobile phone, so you can get four mobile phones.

799
00:42:20,752 --> 00:42:25,242
Plugs into power in four different places, like in your office, in a, in

800
00:42:25,242 --> 00:42:30,442
a, in a cupboard somewhere and, uh, in your house and, and, and a friend's

801
00:42:30,442 --> 00:42:34,322
place, you know, and they're former phones, so they're waterproof and so on.

802
00:42:34,322 --> 00:42:36,602
And you can, you know, have them solar powered or whatever

803
00:42:36,912 --> 00:42:38,922
you get four phones in theory.

804
00:42:38,962 --> 00:42:41,702
I mean, we're not, we're not there yet, but just someone literally was

805
00:42:41,712 --> 00:42:45,622
just quite excited about that, but you could have, or four umbrellas or

806
00:42:45,642 --> 00:42:48,152
whatever, and they form a federation.

807
00:42:48,767 --> 00:42:52,797
Just for you, and you can be the only user of it, but the benefit of that is

808
00:42:53,307 --> 00:42:59,017
that if one failed, you'll immediately know, and you can have software, which

809
00:42:59,017 --> 00:43:03,097
would immediately, you can, again, you could create, uh, people are thinking

810
00:43:03,097 --> 00:43:05,277
about so many different ideas, but this is for other people to build

811
00:43:05,317 --> 00:43:07,067
because it's an extensible platform.

812
00:43:07,347 --> 00:43:12,687
You can have this federated sort of emergency exit button where if the

813
00:43:12,687 --> 00:43:15,797
number of guardians went down below a certain level, it'll take your

814
00:43:15,807 --> 00:43:17,477
balance and send it immediately off to.

815
00:43:18,372 --> 00:43:20,672
Another federation or another address or something.

816
00:43:21,012 --> 00:43:21,312
Okay.

817
00:43:21,312 --> 00:43:21,402
So

818
00:43:21,522 --> 00:43:24,042
it's not that you can recover a lost guardian.

819
00:43:24,192 --> 00:43:25,972
That's, that's not possible, or it is

820
00:43:25,972 --> 00:43:26,522
possible.

821
00:43:26,592 --> 00:43:27,942
If they're lost, you can't recover them.

822
00:43:27,962 --> 00:43:30,852
If they're damaged or their machines failed or so, and

823
00:43:30,852 --> 00:43:31,742
then that can be recovered.

824
00:43:31,742 --> 00:43:36,292
You just restart the machine and it will, it will automatically catch up.

825
00:43:36,292 --> 00:43:37,312
And again, all of this.

826
00:43:37,592 --> 00:43:41,342
So when you see a website that's very popular being used by multiple people.

827
00:43:41,847 --> 00:43:47,507
They, they, um, are, there's a machine called a web server, I don't know if I can

828
00:43:48,017 --> 00:43:53,677
teach you, it's like a web server where the actual code for the site is, and when

829
00:43:53,677 --> 00:43:59,297
someone goes to a website, they connect up to that web server, that machine, and

830
00:43:59,317 --> 00:44:01,487
it will take the code for a given page.

831
00:44:01,747 --> 00:44:03,947
And send it back to the person and the person will display

832
00:44:03,947 --> 00:44:05,067
that on their web browser.

833
00:44:05,557 --> 00:44:10,427
But the reality is, is that beyond the most trivial websites,

834
00:44:11,017 --> 00:44:12,967
there won't just be one machine.

835
00:44:13,027 --> 00:44:17,217
There will be multiple machines, um, that all have the same

836
00:44:17,217 --> 00:44:18,287
software running on them.

837
00:44:18,687 --> 00:44:22,507
And so when you ask for that website, um, it will basically, there'll

838
00:44:22,507 --> 00:44:27,177
be another service which will say, Okay, this time machine A responds,

839
00:44:27,247 --> 00:44:28,807
then machine B, then machine D.

840
00:44:29,117 --> 00:44:30,157
And then if.

841
00:44:30,452 --> 00:44:34,712
If someone tries to modify any data on machine A, they communicate to each other

842
00:44:35,132 --> 00:44:37,512
to make sure they all have the same data.

843
00:44:37,842 --> 00:44:42,392
Now, typically the way that would work is it, it's, it can be a

844
00:44:42,392 --> 00:44:43,542
little bit complex to set up.

845
00:44:43,562 --> 00:44:45,842
You have all these different types of machines involved.

846
00:44:45,852 --> 00:44:48,572
You have database servers and you have.

847
00:44:48,787 --> 00:44:51,547
Application servers and web servers and load balancers, and

848
00:44:51,547 --> 00:44:52,497
there's all this other stuff.

849
00:44:52,747 --> 00:44:55,267
All that's replaced with a federation, and it handles that.

850
00:44:55,307 --> 00:44:58,887
And you have software to handle if one fails and I'll recover.

851
00:44:59,477 --> 00:45:01,077
That's all handled by the federation.

852
00:45:01,077 --> 00:45:06,637
You just set it up, five minutes, and then, um, if one machine fails and

853
00:45:06,637 --> 00:45:10,507
you restart it, it will catch up and recover, it will synchronize information.

854
00:45:10,787 --> 00:45:17,012
That's, that's why, although this was made to resolve Um, making chammy

855
00:45:17,012 --> 00:45:21,322
and e cash mints, um, decentralized, it has way more applicability.

856
00:45:21,362 --> 00:45:24,962
If there's anything that you think benefits from redundancy and reliability,

857
00:45:25,582 --> 00:45:29,052
then you should run it in the federal, you don't need that to run noughts

858
00:45:29,102 --> 00:45:33,412
and crosses, but you know, tic tac toe, some people might call it, but

859
00:45:33,642 --> 00:45:36,902
it's useful when you're dealing, if you think about it, definitely when it

860
00:45:36,922 --> 00:45:40,332
deals with money, you want redundancy, you don't want to lose one machine and

861
00:45:40,542 --> 00:45:42,672
everything stops, definitely with chat.

862
00:45:43,207 --> 00:45:45,697
And certain sensitive data, your passwords, you might want

863
00:45:45,697 --> 00:45:47,647
it to be on multiple machines, not one machine failure.

864
00:45:47,917 --> 00:45:48,067
Does

865
00:45:48,067 --> 00:45:48,547
that make sense?

866
00:45:48,552 --> 00:45:51,457
And, and last redundancy question on, on that, can you transfer

867
00:45:51,457 --> 00:45:52,567
the identity of a guardian?

868
00:45:52,567 --> 00:45:55,747
Because, because, uh, in, in my thinking when I, when I talked about

869
00:45:55,747 --> 00:45:57,307
that, if something fails, right?

870
00:45:57,727 --> 00:46:03,127
Uh, the, the question I have is what if you have multiple, uh, failures and, and

871
00:46:03,127 --> 00:46:06,727
then you say you, you can transfer the balance out and, and, but you would, you

872
00:46:06,727 --> 00:46:08,677
would lose your federation in, in, in

873
00:46:08,677 --> 00:46:09,427
that respect, right?

874
00:46:09,517 --> 00:46:09,577
Yeah.

875
00:46:09,577 --> 00:46:10,797
If you, so you, yes, you can.

876
00:46:11,497 --> 00:46:14,577
Um, and Casa does a good job of this as well.

877
00:46:14,607 --> 00:46:19,067
For example, you have, with the guardians, when you set up a multi

878
00:46:19,067 --> 00:46:24,597
sig, um, so multiple people signing own, having collective ownership of

879
00:46:24,687 --> 00:46:29,557
certain Bitcoin or control of certain Bitcoin, um, that set is, is fixed.

880
00:46:29,647 --> 00:46:31,712
There are protocols to.

881
00:46:31,922 --> 00:46:34,112
Allow you to add more to that set.

882
00:46:34,112 --> 00:46:37,292
There's a, there's something called Frost that's recently come out that

883
00:46:37,292 --> 00:46:41,702
allows you to take a multisig and then, um, you can add more people to it,

884
00:46:42,052 --> 00:46:43,582
but you can't remove people from it.

885
00:46:43,582 --> 00:46:45,202
But you can add people to that set.

886
00:46:45,292 --> 00:46:45,322
Okay.

887
00:46:45,672 --> 00:46:51,252
You can, so, so you have to be aware that you can make them, not, you no longer

888
00:46:51,252 --> 00:46:54,792
talk to them, but their, their keys are still active, so you have to track that.

889
00:46:55,152 --> 00:46:57,672
But, and, and already someone has made something called frosty

890
00:46:57,672 --> 00:47:01,032
mint, which was using fetty mint and extended it to support.

891
00:47:01,777 --> 00:47:02,507
Extensible sets.

892
00:47:02,937 --> 00:47:08,377
However, even without that, what you can do is if someone loses their keys

893
00:47:08,407 --> 00:47:12,957
or becomes a bad actor, or you decide, I don't want to be a guy anymore, and a

894
00:47:12,957 --> 00:47:17,417
different person comes in, you form a new federation with the new set of people,

895
00:47:17,797 --> 00:47:22,197
and then you transition everybody's balances over, over the lightning network.

896
00:47:22,737 --> 00:47:28,967
To the others, but like traditional multi sig, but what Casa did very well and

897
00:47:28,967 --> 00:47:34,477
others do is made that process when you go in, what you see is I've got these people

898
00:47:34,477 --> 00:47:38,677
who are the signers for the multi sig and I'm now want to delete this person,

899
00:47:38,717 --> 00:47:42,307
add this person, you make the change you want, you click confirmed, and then

900
00:47:42,307 --> 00:47:45,517
there's an hourglass and it goes done, but what's actually done is it's formed

901
00:47:45,517 --> 00:47:48,247
a new multi sig, transferred balances, but from your point of view, it's just

902
00:47:48,267 --> 00:47:49,717
felt like I've just made a change.

903
00:47:50,057 --> 00:47:53,367
And that's where, from a UX point of view, all of that

904
00:47:53,367 --> 00:47:54,787
should be hidden from the user.

905
00:47:55,117 --> 00:48:00,147
And so we should have it where we transfer your, you know, transfer your,

906
00:48:00,237 --> 00:48:07,422
your, um, Bitcoin across your, your e cash and your, um, And your, if you're

907
00:48:07,422 --> 00:48:10,722
using chats, your chat conversations, everything should all just go across.

908
00:48:11,022 --> 00:48:12,592
But from your point of view, you don't see that.

909
00:48:12,592 --> 00:48:16,642
You just see, this thing is up, this thing is, um, upgrading.

910
00:48:16,652 --> 00:48:19,172
Here's a new version of the federation.

911
00:48:19,662 --> 00:48:21,862
Um, are you happy with those guardians?

912
00:48:21,992 --> 00:48:27,802
If not, you've got a week or a month to just transfer it out to someone else.

913
00:48:28,312 --> 00:48:29,972
Um, otherwise just click okay.

914
00:48:30,222 --> 00:48:32,052
And then you just wait hourglass and done.

915
00:48:32,072 --> 00:48:33,182
You're, you've upgraded.

916
00:48:33,547 --> 00:48:38,207
You know, so it, we, we, that's how the, that's the, that's our Northstar aim.

917
00:48:38,207 --> 00:48:43,217
And we're not there yet, but we've got an incredible team who are, who are

918
00:48:44,947 --> 00:48:50,017
working around the clock to make the experience magical, as I'd like to put it.

919
00:48:50,702 --> 00:48:57,152
And when can we expect the Fede chewing gum, like perfect branding with frosty

920
00:48:57,152 --> 00:48:58,292
mints and Fede mints and like...

921
00:48:58,702 --> 00:49:02,952
Oh, then the answer for that is, um, there's never going to be perfect.

922
00:49:03,402 --> 00:49:09,502
So the vision that we have in our mind of the system is never

923
00:49:09,502 --> 00:49:10,522
going to be perfect because...

924
00:49:11,117 --> 00:49:14,007
The Bitcoin ecosystem is constantly coming up with new ideas.

925
00:49:14,157 --> 00:49:17,517
And so, um, you know, Frost was one.

926
00:49:17,577 --> 00:49:22,307
Um, if there was an opcode update to support certain things like

927
00:49:22,307 --> 00:49:26,977
Covenants, then, you know, we could add all of that to, uh, Federimint.

928
00:49:29,047 --> 00:49:32,607
Um, and, um, there's things like, um, ideas like ARK,

929
00:49:32,957 --> 00:49:34,317
which could be implemented.

930
00:49:34,317 --> 00:49:38,247
So a federated ARK, anything that works well, single server works

931
00:49:38,247 --> 00:49:39,627
better federated because, like.

932
00:49:40,212 --> 00:49:41,822
Federations are better than no federations.

933
00:49:42,112 --> 00:49:45,792
Um, um, simple setup is better than complex setup.

934
00:49:45,862 --> 00:49:45,952
Yeah.

935
00:49:46,292 --> 00:49:50,842
Um, um, redundancy is better than no redundancy, you know?

936
00:49:51,232 --> 00:49:57,022
Um, so, um, that's what you get with, with running something in a federated manner.

937
00:49:57,082 --> 00:50:00,797
So if it's useful to run in a non federated manner, then I mean,

938
00:50:00,877 --> 00:50:04,007
anything that we deal with in the Bitcoin space anyway, I mean, I

939
00:50:04,017 --> 00:50:06,977
don't think all of it, cause there's an overhead to running a federation

940
00:50:06,977 --> 00:50:08,377
versus running it on a single machine.

941
00:50:08,747 --> 00:50:12,447
So if you're, as I said, if you're running a game of Pac Man, you

942
00:50:12,447 --> 00:50:14,887
probably don't need it to be federated.

943
00:50:14,897 --> 00:50:18,327
If, if the machine fails, you just start the game again, you know, it's

944
00:50:18,327 --> 00:50:19,687
like, it's not the end of the world.

945
00:50:20,027 --> 00:50:25,237
So, but for, for money, for communication and for certain

946
00:50:25,287 --> 00:50:26,747
sensitive data, it makes sense.

947
00:50:27,082 --> 00:50:31,082
And even some of the latest goings on in the Bitcoin space, some of the

948
00:50:31,092 --> 00:50:34,592
new ideas that have come out, um, again, we're keeping a close eye on

949
00:50:34,592 --> 00:50:37,012
because if they, they bear fruit.

950
00:50:37,772 --> 00:50:42,102
Anything in the space, we will look to implement it to make the system better.

951
00:50:42,632 --> 00:50:47,512
Um, and FediMint will benefit from these new ideas and these new ideas will

952
00:50:47,522 --> 00:50:52,792
benefit from FediMint because FediMint is a mechanism to federate any idea.

953
00:50:52,792 --> 00:50:55,922
And you'll hear when people are looking at these new ideas, how to make them better.

954
00:50:56,382 --> 00:50:59,432
They will suggest, okay, well, for example, ARK, what happens if the

955
00:50:59,722 --> 00:51:01,262
ARK service provider goes offline?

956
00:51:01,292 --> 00:51:03,232
Well, the solution is we just federate it.

957
00:51:03,252 --> 00:51:04,212
But it's like...

958
00:51:05,812 --> 00:51:09,272
A database is a very useful, um, um, thing to have.

959
00:51:09,322 --> 00:51:10,912
And it's like, well, what I'm going to do with all this data,

960
00:51:11,082 --> 00:51:11,992
the solution is a database.

961
00:51:12,052 --> 00:51:16,832
Now, to begin with, I'm showing my age, but back in the nineties.

962
00:51:17,502 --> 00:51:19,652
Every time you'll say we need a database or a web server, you'll

963
00:51:19,652 --> 00:51:23,872
literally roll your own database or you'll roll your own web server.

964
00:51:24,622 --> 00:51:28,932
Now, you would just use one of the standard established web servers and you'd

965
00:51:28,932 --> 00:51:30,192
use one of the established databases.

966
00:51:30,212 --> 00:51:34,132
You would focus on your business logic and you won't write your own database.

967
00:51:34,532 --> 00:51:37,012
You could even take that one step further and click a button to

968
00:51:37,022 --> 00:51:38,592
launch a cloud server that has

969
00:51:38,592 --> 00:51:39,792
all the features on it for you.

970
00:51:39,902 --> 00:51:40,052
Yeah, exactly.

971
00:51:40,052 --> 00:51:41,102
But the point is that...

972
00:51:41,757 --> 00:51:44,747
These are things that are widely useful for multiple things.

973
00:51:44,787 --> 00:51:48,527
So it makes sense for someone just to focus on, on doing

974
00:51:48,527 --> 00:51:49,487
that really, really well.

975
00:51:49,567 --> 00:51:50,777
So then you can focus on.

976
00:51:51,472 --> 00:51:56,032
Or you can focus on whatever, BVM, or you can focus on, um,

977
00:51:56,042 --> 00:51:57,442
whatever system you want to do.

978
00:51:57,492 --> 00:52:02,112
Um, coin pools and stuff like that, all these, all these different things,

979
00:52:02,112 --> 00:52:06,982
but the actual bit of federating it, handling redundancy, handling

980
00:52:06,982 --> 00:52:08,282
failure, all that sort of stuff.

981
00:52:08,502 --> 00:52:10,892
You just thought, well, why don't I just make it a module on a fediment?

982
00:52:11,252 --> 00:52:13,742
And then I just have to focus on the business logic.

983
00:52:14,137 --> 00:52:17,887
And all of the effort from this incredible team to make it

984
00:52:18,017 --> 00:52:22,987
federated and redundant and fully recovering, um, you get for free.

985
00:52:23,107 --> 00:52:23,327
You

986
00:52:23,327 --> 00:52:24,657
said, you said coin pools.

987
00:52:24,657 --> 00:52:27,997
I was thinking about coin joints before, like, if, uh, is there,

988
00:52:28,057 --> 00:52:32,922
is there a, a bridge between the two technologies where you use?

989
00:52:32,922 --> 00:52:35,952
You do a federated coin joint where you trust the other

990
00:52:36,462 --> 00:52:38,262
people to not have flagged coins

991
00:52:39,192 --> 00:52:40,512
go into the transaction.

992
00:52:40,512 --> 00:52:42,312
I mean, anything, anything could be, anything could be done.

993
00:52:42,312 --> 00:52:43,632
So you, you could do that.

994
00:52:43,752 --> 00:52:50,752
But uh, uh, within a federation, ash is actually cryptographically

995
00:52:51,102 --> 00:52:52,542
indistinguishable one ish from another.

996
00:52:52,542 --> 00:52:53,162
Uh, so you already.

997
00:52:53,917 --> 00:52:57,427
You, you sort of get a level of privacy for free.

998
00:52:57,547 --> 00:52:57,977
All right.

999
00:52:58,277 --> 00:52:58,547
All right.

1000
00:52:58,597 --> 00:52:58,787
Yeah.

1001
00:52:58,787 --> 00:53:02,207
I think, I think we haven't actually dug into the e cash concept quite

1002
00:53:02,207 --> 00:53:04,867
as, as much in, in this conversation.

1003
00:53:04,877 --> 00:53:07,677
That, that is kind of the, the killer feature.

1004
00:53:07,717 --> 00:53:08,677
And originally

1005
00:53:08,677 --> 00:53:14,257
the, the, the other stuff, yeah, the original idea was e cash and it is.

1006
00:53:14,972 --> 00:53:21,042
Uh, a incredibly important and killer feature, but there are, but what

1007
00:53:21,172 --> 00:53:24,632
we realize more and more is that there are multiple killer features

1008
00:53:24,632 --> 00:53:29,362
and it's, um, it's important to understand that you get best in class

1009
00:53:29,602 --> 00:53:33,152
e cash because it's federated, so you remove the single point of trust.

1010
00:53:33,722 --> 00:53:35,542
So that's, that's incredible.

1011
00:53:35,572 --> 00:53:40,402
And that was, that was the thing that was new, but, um, you also get.

1012
00:53:41,022 --> 00:53:45,562
Um, a very simple to set up multi sig, um, system.

1013
00:53:45,912 --> 00:53:48,432
You also get redundant lightning as well.

1014
00:53:48,472 --> 00:53:52,772
So you can, the benefit of having that is that you can have multiple people

1015
00:53:52,772 --> 00:53:56,942
providing you, um, lightning provision, for example, as opposed to one LSP.

1016
00:53:57,812 --> 00:54:00,572
But you don't need to lock up different Bitcoin with each one.

1017
00:54:00,652 --> 00:54:05,422
So that means it's costless for me to have free, um, lightning connections

1018
00:54:05,422 --> 00:54:08,422
going out from my, um, Federation.

1019
00:54:08,812 --> 00:54:13,832
Uh, means which is available for everybody in that, um, community as opposed to one.

1020
00:54:14,102 --> 00:54:19,712
So let's say one, like one of your LSPs works 99 times out of a

1021
00:54:19,712 --> 00:54:21,842
hundred, one of you payments wise.

1022
00:54:22,272 --> 00:54:26,362
Well, if you have one, that means one in, if you have one, that means one in

1023
00:54:26,362 --> 00:54:28,022
a hundred of your transactions fails.

1024
00:54:28,132 --> 00:54:28,912
If you're free.

1025
00:54:29,342 --> 00:54:32,212
It's one in a hundred, times by one in a hundred, times by one in a hundred.

1026
00:54:32,382 --> 00:54:37,362
That's like, so you're now talking about one in a million, one in a million,

1027
00:54:37,362 --> 00:54:39,962
I think, will, will, will, will fail.

1028
00:54:40,102 --> 00:54:41,642
Yeah, because, because you have redundancy.

1029
00:54:42,202 --> 00:54:47,662
Also, the, the costs of using Bitcoin and Lightning Network,

1030
00:54:47,662 --> 00:54:49,622
like channel rebalancing now is.

1031
00:54:50,252 --> 00:54:54,852
It's shared across, instead of one person, it's shared across, um, you

1032
00:54:54,852 --> 00:55:02,442
know, a community, a family of 10, 20, or a company of 50 to 100, or a

1033
00:55:02,442 --> 00:55:07,752
community of 10, 000, so on, making it much more affordable for some of the

1034
00:55:07,752 --> 00:55:09,452
people who need it the most, you know?

1035
00:55:10,022 --> 00:55:15,932
So it, so it actually, um, has multiple benefits if you federate.

1036
00:55:16,837 --> 00:55:21,317
Um, Bitcoin usage, if you federate lightning usage and share that.

1037
00:55:21,767 --> 00:55:27,447
So, um, and then the general concept that is built on the idea of federations and

1038
00:55:27,447 --> 00:55:30,227
making them really easy, more and more.

1039
00:55:30,227 --> 00:55:33,557
And you'll, once you start hearing it, you'll realize that all lots of

1040
00:55:33,567 --> 00:55:37,397
things that are, are being looked at in the space, they will talk

1041
00:55:37,407 --> 00:55:40,827
about to make them more redundant, to make them easier, we just have a

1042
00:55:40,827 --> 00:55:43,607
federation, but it's like, well, okay, we should build our own database.

1043
00:55:43,607 --> 00:55:45,127
It's like, well, do you want to do that?

1044
00:55:45,127 --> 00:55:46,097
Or would you just want to use.

1045
00:55:46,827 --> 00:55:49,897
We focus on making federations really, really easy and powerful,

1046
00:55:49,927 --> 00:55:52,617
and also giving you the primitives that you're all going to want.

1047
00:55:52,627 --> 00:55:53,637
You're all going to want Bitcoin.

1048
00:55:53,637 --> 00:55:54,587
You're all going to want Lightning.

1049
00:55:55,007 --> 00:55:58,127
You're all likely going to want e cash because the more you use it, you realize

1050
00:55:58,127 --> 00:55:59,687
it's a really, really powerful tool.

1051
00:56:00,267 --> 00:56:03,077
And then you'll add your own business logic for the specific

1052
00:56:03,077 --> 00:56:04,047
thing that you want to do.

1053
00:56:04,087 --> 00:56:07,597
So, uh, so I just want to make sure people understand the bigger picture.

1054
00:56:07,597 --> 00:56:08,297
This is like.

1055
00:56:08,912 --> 00:56:09,962
This is really powerful.

1056
00:56:10,202 --> 00:56:11,492
Ash is incredibly powerful.

1057
00:56:11,492 --> 00:56:15,622
But, but the whole thing together, the, the, the combination of them

1058
00:56:15,622 --> 00:56:17,332
leads to something even more powerful.

1059
00:56:17,713 --> 00:56:21,733
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1086
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1098
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So would you

1099
00:58:09,854 --> 00:58:15,044
call ment a layer three technology or a layer zero technology?

1100
00:58:15,944 --> 00:58:20,784
Um, I, I used to say different things, but, um, I don't

1101
00:58:20,784 --> 00:58:24,104
think now a layer, I, I think.

1102
00:58:24,519 --> 00:58:25,849
What would you call a database?

1103
00:58:26,039 --> 00:58:29,649
What would you call a load balancer or web server?

1104
00:58:31,349 --> 00:58:36,519
It's a tool which, um, they all like, it's almost like Jerry Maguire.

1105
00:58:36,519 --> 00:58:37,499
They complete each other.

1106
00:58:38,529 --> 00:58:40,299
You want, you want lightning.

1107
00:58:40,759 --> 00:58:41,979
It's a complimentary tool.

1108
00:58:42,069 --> 00:58:42,419
So.

1109
00:58:42,944 --> 00:58:44,534
Um, they all solve different problems.

1110
00:58:44,744 --> 00:58:48,224
Um, well first of all, the base layer is Bitcoin.

1111
00:58:48,854 --> 00:58:49,334
Bitcoin.

1112
00:58:49,394 --> 00:58:49,724
Well, I'd

1113
00:58:49,724 --> 00:58:53,264
say Bitcoin is layer one, but the people in Bitcoin are layer zero.

1114
00:58:53,294 --> 00:58:53,474
Yeah.

1115
00:58:53,474 --> 00:58:53,954
Wanna, because we love

1116
00:58:53,984 --> 00:58:54,274
them.

1117
00:58:54,424 --> 00:58:55,394
There's not layer one you wanna say.

1118
00:58:55,484 --> 00:58:56,924
If we go with that terminology.

1119
00:58:57,194 --> 00:59:00,434
Bitcoin is the people are layer zero.

1120
00:59:00,924 --> 00:59:02,934
Um, that's the human community layer.

1121
00:59:02,994 --> 00:59:03,264
Yeah.

1122
00:59:03,444 --> 00:59:06,864
Um, the, uh, Bitcoin is layer one.

1123
00:59:07,484 --> 00:59:10,524
Um, lightning, you might say is layer two.

1124
00:59:10,604 --> 00:59:10,894
Yeah.

1125
00:59:11,214 --> 00:59:15,754
Then I would say federations are things that can complement all of those.

1126
00:59:15,844 --> 00:59:18,694
It's almost like, I would say it's like the shield.

1127
00:59:19,014 --> 00:59:20,574
It's like the armament for all of them.

1128
00:59:20,814 --> 00:59:25,574
So it's, it allows, it takes the layer zero, who, which are

1129
00:59:25,584 --> 00:59:26,954
individual people right now.

1130
00:59:27,229 --> 00:59:31,379
It allows them to organize as, as in, in communities, which they

1131
00:59:31,379 --> 00:59:34,769
naturally do and, and, and allows them to do that more efficiently.

1132
00:59:35,079 --> 00:59:39,729
It takes layer one of Bitcoin and makes it easy to do that in a federated manner.

1133
00:59:39,929 --> 00:59:41,489
And it takes layer two of Lightning.

1134
00:59:41,699 --> 00:59:45,009
And again, it makes it easy to do that in a shared manner as well.

1135
00:59:45,099 --> 00:59:46,359
So it's, it's.

1136
00:59:46,869 --> 00:59:49,179
It augments each one of those layers, oh, is

1137
00:59:49,179 --> 00:59:53,019
layer 0.1, 1.1, and 2.1 all at the same time.

1138
00:59:53,679 --> 00:59:57,729
, uh, it's, I would say it's a multiplier versus an addi add addition.

1139
00:59:57,729 --> 00:59:57,759
Okay.

1140
00:59:57,879 --> 01:00:01,859
So it takes, so it's like Tony Stark is great.

1141
01:00:02,519 --> 01:00:06,689
The Iron Ironman suit, it augments him, but the Ironman suit, uh,

1142
01:00:06,689 --> 01:00:09,779
except for if you take the la ignore the later, uh, movies where

1143
01:00:10,019 --> 01:00:11,249
it was self running and so on.

1144
01:00:11,549 --> 01:00:12,329
Ignore all that.

1145
01:00:12,509 --> 01:00:17,864
But the, the general idea is that, Um, or you can think, um, Captain America and

1146
01:00:17,864 --> 01:00:23,284
his shield, you know, Captain America is very powerful by himself, but the shield

1147
01:00:23,594 --> 01:00:25,724
augments him, multiplies what he can do.

1148
01:00:26,114 --> 01:00:29,164
And, and that's what I would say at Ferryman is it allows you

1149
01:00:29,214 --> 01:00:31,394
to, to do what you currently do.

1150
01:00:31,734 --> 01:00:34,034
But in a way where it's federated, you have redundancy.

1151
01:00:34,044 --> 01:00:34,734
Wait a minute, it's

1152
01:00:34,774 --> 01:00:39,384
like, uh, I'd say Captain America would be Bitcoin and Iron Man

1153
01:00:39,384 --> 01:00:40,684
would be the Lightning Network.

1154
01:00:40,714 --> 01:00:42,324
And of course, Feddy is the Avengers.

1155
01:00:44,114 --> 01:00:47,564
I'm, I, I, well, I'm, I'm into my comic books as well, but I'm not

1156
01:00:47,564 --> 01:00:50,514
sure, you're just trying to get the Avengers into the conversation because

1157
01:00:50,654 --> 01:00:55,304
the analogy doesn't, I'm not sure the analogy fits there, but maybe.

1158
01:00:55,314 --> 01:00:56,654
Smash, I'm the Hulk.

1159
01:00:56,654 --> 01:00:57,584
Yeah, exactly.

1160
01:00:57,874 --> 01:00:58,994
Well, Iron Man.

1161
01:00:59,174 --> 01:01:03,724
And the Hulk and Captain America are all layer zero.

1162
01:01:03,744 --> 01:01:04,474
They're all people.

1163
01:01:04,724 --> 01:01:04,974
Yeah.

1164
01:01:05,204 --> 01:01:09,524
And, um, and, um, Craig Wright is Dr.

1165
01:01:09,524 --> 01:01:10,124
Doom, by the way.

1166
01:01:13,764 --> 01:01:17,864
But, and they all individually can use, I would say actually, um, if you're

1167
01:01:17,894 --> 01:01:21,934
really going to take this example, um, we're going to torture this analogy,

1168
01:01:21,934 --> 01:01:28,784
but the individual, like the shields and the, you know, the gamma rays, And the

1169
01:01:29,314 --> 01:01:35,634
IMOs are actually probably closer to the idea of a really good, um, individual

1170
01:01:35,644 --> 01:01:40,004
wallet, because they're designed, so for example, I don't want to name one

1171
01:01:40,004 --> 01:01:44,034
because I'll be not naming others, but there are lots of really good wallets

1172
01:01:44,034 --> 01:01:49,534
out there that can take what you do and, and give you superpowers, um,

1173
01:01:49,564 --> 01:01:50,764
Bitcoin wallets and lightning wallets.

1174
01:01:52,054 --> 01:01:58,024
But then, um, to your analogy, the Avengers, sometimes, um, people want to

1175
01:01:58,024 --> 01:02:02,724
get together and work together as a group and coordinate together as a group, and

1176
01:02:02,724 --> 01:02:04,494
that allows them to be even stronger.

1177
01:02:04,924 --> 01:02:09,314
So, um, and that's what, um, FeddyMint allows you to do.

1178
01:02:09,314 --> 01:02:12,344
It takes Your individuals and you can, it allows you to

1179
01:02:12,404 --> 01:02:14,034
coordinate and work as a group.

1180
01:02:14,894 --> 01:02:18,854
Uh, uh, now a better example would be mighty morphing power rangers.

1181
01:02:19,504 --> 01:02:20,044
There you go.

1182
01:02:20,094 --> 01:02:22,764
Oh, or how they form individually.

1183
01:02:22,764 --> 01:02:23,294
They're great.

1184
01:02:23,514 --> 01:02:26,134
And they can, but then when they combine together to make one of

1185
01:02:26,134 --> 01:02:27,904
these sort of mega type things.

1186
01:02:28,549 --> 01:02:31,489
That's, that's that a fed a 30 minute allows you to do that.

1187
01:02:31,489 --> 01:02:31,729
There you go.

1188
01:02:31,729 --> 01:02:31,879
Yeah.

1189
01:02:31,879 --> 01:02:32,329
So, so

1190
01:02:32,329 --> 01:02:35,389
Fedie is really Nick Fury, the guy with the eye patch.

1191
01:02:35,389 --> 01:02:36,609
Oh, Fe or Fe.

1192
01:02:36,679 --> 01:02:37,039
Oh no.

1193
01:02:37,039 --> 01:02:37,399
Fe Mint.

1194
01:02:38,419 --> 01:02:39,469
Who puts the team together?

1195
01:02:39,529 --> 01:02:41,989
Or maybe you are Nick Fury, like you, the guy who puts

1196
01:02:41,989 --> 01:02:42,739
the team together.

1197
01:02:43,289 --> 01:02:47,479
. I don't, if I grew a beard then and, and I, and you poked out one of my eyes,

1198
01:02:47,539 --> 01:02:49,569
maybe I could just use a patch with iron.

1199
01:02:49,929 --> 01:02:52,669
P I, I mean I do like his color, sense of clothing.

1200
01:02:52,699 --> 01:02:55,449
'cause I always just wear black and Nick Fury if.

1201
01:02:56,134 --> 01:02:57,744
Pretty much only seen him wearing black.

1202
01:02:57,794 --> 01:03:01,894
So, so all right, we have that in common plus the great hairstyle as well.

1203
01:03:02,314 --> 01:03:03,374
But, um, Will you

1204
01:03:03,374 --> 01:03:04,804
curse less than Samuel L.

1205
01:03:04,844 --> 01:03:05,264
Jackson?

1206
01:03:06,974 --> 01:03:07,824
On, on interview.

1207
01:03:07,824 --> 01:03:08,054
Yes.

1208
01:03:08,464 --> 01:03:08,664
Yeah.

1209
01:03:08,844 --> 01:03:09,204
No, no.

1210
01:03:09,254 --> 01:03:10,154
In generally I do.

1211
01:03:10,234 --> 01:03:10,554
Yeah.

1212
01:03:10,934 --> 01:03:12,334
But, um, yeah.

1213
01:03:12,764 --> 01:03:14,674
Which is interesting because that brings you on, because

1214
01:03:14,674 --> 01:03:15,914
you mentioned something, Feddy.

1215
01:03:17,759 --> 01:03:18,939
Um, and FediMint.

1216
01:03:18,979 --> 01:03:22,899
So FediMint, we've been talking about this whole thing is the protocol and

1217
01:03:22,949 --> 01:03:30,299
Fedi is a company that was set up to, um, increase adoption of FediMint originally,

1218
01:03:30,299 --> 01:03:36,709
but our objectives and ambitions expanded and our focus is on driving

1219
01:03:36,709 --> 01:03:40,639
adoption of Bitcoin, of Lightning, of FediMint and all freedom technologies

1220
01:03:40,659 --> 01:03:44,549
like that, um, to, um, communities.

1221
01:03:45,064 --> 01:03:45,604
Around the world.

1222
01:03:45,634 --> 01:03:49,464
So we're focused on taking this really, this community focused approach of growth

1223
01:03:49,814 --> 01:03:52,614
and really, really driving hard on that.

1224
01:03:52,924 --> 01:03:55,894
Um, and so obviously Bitcoin's part of that, Lightning's part of

1225
01:03:55,894 --> 01:03:58,844
that, but, and clearly we think FediMint is part of that as well.

1226
01:03:58,884 --> 01:04:01,224
But there, there will be other technologies out there as well.

1227
01:04:01,234 --> 01:04:04,314
When we see them, we're looking at Nostr, we're looking at lots of different things.

1228
01:04:04,644 --> 01:04:08,354
If we think that they can support, um, what we do is two things, there's

1229
01:04:08,394 --> 01:04:10,144
two halves, the human and the tech.

1230
01:04:10,634 --> 01:04:16,384
So the tech, you understand, we, we create, we work with these technologies

1231
01:04:16,594 --> 01:04:18,054
and we analyze them and work with them.

1232
01:04:18,294 --> 01:04:22,754
And then we, we build a software, we call it, the software is also called

1233
01:04:22,754 --> 01:04:27,484
Feddy, um, which is like a super app for communities, um, which takes

1234
01:04:27,484 --> 01:04:31,354
us all together, provides you this really simple experience where you can

1235
01:04:31,364 --> 01:04:33,374
manage all this stuff in one place.

1236
01:04:33,944 --> 01:04:35,164
Um, so it's.

1237
01:04:35,804 --> 01:04:41,434
Your, your conversations and chats, your money and data all available from one app.

1238
01:04:41,464 --> 01:04:43,044
So it's like a, like a super app.

1239
01:04:43,514 --> 01:04:47,804
Um, and behind the scenes, it's using all of this technology, Lightning,

1240
01:04:47,824 --> 01:04:52,574
Bitcoin, um, um, FediMint, potentially things like Nostr and so on.

1241
01:04:52,924 --> 01:04:53,694
And it's just seamless.

1242
01:04:54,034 --> 01:04:58,164
So that's one, but the other side, the human side is really important.

1243
01:04:58,294 --> 01:05:03,384
Um, in fact, over time, the majority of the team will be focused on this, which

1244
01:05:05,484 --> 01:05:11,994
Finding and locating and then hiring people on the ground around the world

1245
01:05:11,994 --> 01:05:15,464
in parts of the world where they need Bitcoin, lightning, and other freedom

1246
01:05:15,464 --> 01:05:21,469
technologies the most, and then providing almost like, um, you know, The Apple

1247
01:05:21,469 --> 01:05:26,069
stores and you have the genius bar, but it's like a decentralized genius bar to go

1248
01:05:26,069 --> 01:05:30,309
with the app so that from the app and then also there'll be remote service as well,

1249
01:05:30,309 --> 01:05:34,819
but it's on the ground and remote combined together so that if you have an issue or

1250
01:05:34,829 --> 01:05:38,929
if you have a question, um, you're having, you want to set this up for a community.

1251
01:05:38,929 --> 01:05:40,619
We're there to help you set it up.

1252
01:05:40,869 --> 01:05:44,119
But beyond that, we're there to help you understand and set up

1253
01:05:44,169 --> 01:05:47,159
Bitcoin lightning, but it's all available starting from the app.

1254
01:05:47,514 --> 01:05:49,864
All the way through to someone on the ground, if needed.

1255
01:05:50,164 --> 01:05:53,704
And then any questions you may have, whether it be all the questions

1256
01:05:53,704 --> 01:05:56,164
that you think that someone when they're starting, um, has.

1257
01:05:56,709 --> 01:05:59,849
We're there to answer it, but in your language, understanding your

1258
01:05:59,849 --> 01:06:04,939
local context, um, potentially meeting you in person, that's, that's

1259
01:06:04,939 --> 01:06:06,539
a really, really powerful thing.

1260
01:06:06,729 --> 01:06:10,449
And that's going to not just drive it because our system is

1261
01:06:10,449 --> 01:06:14,339
effectively this window onto the, to the freedom technology ecosystem.

1262
01:06:14,779 --> 01:06:19,999
It, it, our, the federation itself takes something else and federates it

1263
01:06:19,999 --> 01:06:21,499
and makes it more redundant and so on.

1264
01:06:21,649 --> 01:06:22,939
But it isn't the thing itself.

1265
01:06:22,939 --> 01:06:26,809
We aren't Bitcoin, we aren't lightning, we aren't Nosto or whatever it may be.

1266
01:06:27,169 --> 01:06:32,149
So by rolling one of these out into a community, alongside this sort of

1267
01:06:32,149 --> 01:06:36,339
human support network, we actually call it the Fedi order actually,

1268
01:06:36,399 --> 01:06:39,879
or the Fedi Order . Um, and they're called Fed Nights, as you can imagine.

1269
01:06:40,269 --> 01:06:47,064
Um, but um, Um, by having this, we effectively locate, educate.

1270
01:06:47,674 --> 01:06:52,514
Um, and inculcates effectively people on all these freedom technologies.

1271
01:06:52,854 --> 01:06:55,634
And if there are aligned services, a lot of time people will say,

1272
01:06:55,674 --> 01:06:57,074
I've got Bitcoin, I've received it.

1273
01:06:57,564 --> 01:06:58,294
Now what I do with it?

1274
01:06:58,304 --> 01:06:59,654
Well, you can buy stuff.

1275
01:06:59,664 --> 01:07:01,634
Maybe you can buy with Bitrefill from within the app.

1276
01:07:01,664 --> 01:07:06,014
Click, you're off to Bitrefill, but it's seamlessly integrated so

1277
01:07:06,014 --> 01:07:09,464
that when you click and buy, the experience is very, very simple.

1278
01:07:09,474 --> 01:07:13,614
Or it might be you need to, you can use Bolts or you want to donate

1279
01:07:13,614 --> 01:07:15,734
to charity, Giza or whatever.

1280
01:07:15,814 --> 01:07:16,464
So we.

1281
01:07:16,959 --> 01:07:21,779
Every rollout of a FediMint is actually this education around all these

1282
01:07:21,779 --> 01:07:25,099
other things where people don't even, they're using them, but they're not,

1283
01:07:25,129 --> 01:07:29,509
but we are effectively the outsource business development arm for all the

1284
01:07:29,509 --> 01:07:30,949
rest of the Bitcoin ecosystem as well.

1285
01:07:31,239 --> 01:07:34,419
So, so what countries, um, are you working on?

1286
01:07:34,589 --> 01:07:37,189
We're, we're global first business.

1287
01:07:37,219 --> 01:07:40,199
So all our employees are all over the world in every, we have

1288
01:07:40,209 --> 01:07:41,689
people in every continent already.

1289
01:07:42,119 --> 01:07:43,169
Um, but.

1290
01:07:43,719 --> 01:07:51,079
Um, um, we go where, um, initially we're focused on a few markets and

1291
01:07:51,079 --> 01:07:54,159
going really, really deep to that are some of the most complex markets.

1292
01:07:54,559 --> 01:07:57,189
We want to start with the most complex markets because one,

1293
01:07:57,209 --> 01:07:58,619
there's less people operating there.

1294
01:07:58,619 --> 01:08:00,319
There's lots of people in less complex markets.

1295
01:08:00,949 --> 01:08:05,479
Um, and two, what we're finding is we have to sort of, every day we have it handed

1296
01:08:05,479 --> 01:08:09,979
to ourselves in our, and after all of our, uh, understandings of how to build an app

1297
01:08:09,999 --> 01:08:14,169
are sort of challenged, we have to go back to the drawing board, re architect so many

1298
01:08:14,169 --> 01:08:18,939
different things, which is amazing because that means you're building something where

1299
01:08:18,949 --> 01:08:21,669
you're, that people really, really need.

1300
01:08:22,039 --> 01:08:25,489
And because the feedback they're getting, and you're getting this

1301
01:08:25,559 --> 01:08:30,729
uncommon knowledge, you know, of what you thought was required and what's actually

1302
01:08:30,729 --> 01:08:32,669
required are very, very different things.

1303
01:08:33,009 --> 01:08:37,279
So the end app is going to look and be different from everything else you've

1304
01:08:37,279 --> 01:08:40,759
seen, because it's starting from this human centered approach to design.

1305
01:08:40,759 --> 01:08:42,009
It's like, we started off with something.

1306
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:43,179
This is what we thought.

1307
01:08:43,449 --> 01:08:44,289
Give it to users.

1308
01:08:45,244 --> 01:08:48,494
And then in terms of locations, we have a few locations in Africa,

1309
01:08:48,504 --> 01:08:50,484
a few locations in Latin America.

1310
01:08:50,934 --> 01:08:54,484
We're starting to look for locations in, there will be locations in,

1311
01:08:54,514 --> 01:08:58,604
in, in all over the world, but, but we started these cause these are

1312
01:08:58,614 --> 01:08:59,744
some of the most complex markets.

1313
01:09:00,184 --> 01:09:06,144
Um, and, um, we've run these trials and then this torrent of feedback

1314
01:09:06,144 --> 01:09:08,714
came back and this didn't work, this didn't work, this didn't work, this

1315
01:09:08,714 --> 01:09:13,484
didn't work, but there's something there, but you need to rearchitect

1316
01:09:13,824 --> 01:09:15,114
or rethink so many different things.

1317
01:09:15,154 --> 01:09:15,874
So we went back.

1318
01:09:16,489 --> 01:09:20,289
Re architected and now, okay, it works a lot better and

1319
01:09:20,289 --> 01:09:21,129
there's still something there.

1320
01:09:21,129 --> 01:09:23,579
And we're getting more excited about this, but you still need

1321
01:09:23,589 --> 01:09:25,289
to do this, these changes.

1322
01:09:25,729 --> 01:09:28,239
And so, um, we're in that iteration point.

1323
01:09:28,379 --> 01:09:31,609
We, there's a noticeable excitement, but we really want to build something

1324
01:09:31,609 --> 01:09:35,539
that is starting from a point of.

1325
01:09:36,274 --> 01:09:41,514
Listening to people who need it really, really badly, whether they realize it

1326
01:09:41,514 --> 01:09:46,204
or not and say, well, what do we need to do to make it work in your context?

1327
01:09:46,644 --> 01:09:51,404
So we're now, we're now, I would say we're about 70 percent away through that

1328
01:09:51,404 --> 01:09:55,524
process to the point where we can have a version that we can say, okay, this.

1329
01:09:57,069 --> 01:10:01,439
It's an MVP for solving, there was an MVP that we showed to people that it

1330
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:05,889
can use, but now this is the MVP that's been human centered, it's been re

1331
01:10:05,889 --> 01:10:11,829
architected for, for actual use on the ground in very, very tough environments.

1332
01:10:12,249 --> 01:10:14,339
And the idea is if it works in those environments.

1333
01:10:15,144 --> 01:10:17,324
Then it works everywhere, you know, if you start it.

1334
01:10:17,424 --> 01:10:22,024
So that's, that's why it will, it will, it will just be way easier and

1335
01:10:22,024 --> 01:10:24,334
better in, in the easy environments.

1336
01:10:24,894 --> 01:10:28,804
But so it's, so it's always good to sort of try to work on the hardest first.

1337
01:10:28,804 --> 01:10:29,774
And so that's what we're doing.

1338
01:10:31,144 --> 01:10:31,624
All right.

1339
01:10:32,464 --> 01:10:37,034
No, I'm only gonna jump in here because Because we've, I'm conscious of the time.

1340
01:10:37,034 --> 01:10:40,224
We've already kind of overshot our target a little bit here.

1341
01:10:40,254 --> 01:10:41,604
So I don't want to keep you too much longer.

1342
01:10:42,084 --> 01:10:43,204
And that's what I was going to say.

1343
01:10:43,204 --> 01:10:45,824
I've monopolized the conversation this time from our side.

1344
01:10:45,834 --> 01:10:47,434
So, so back to Knut.

1345
01:10:49,064 --> 01:10:52,244
What was the name of the MMO that you mentioned at the beginning of the

1346
01:10:52,434 --> 01:10:54,454
interview that you were working on?

1347
01:10:56,124 --> 01:10:57,804
Oh, oh, a long, long time ago.

1348
01:10:57,824 --> 01:10:59,154
There were, there were two.

1349
01:10:59,304 --> 01:11:00,444
So, um.

1350
01:11:00,679 --> 01:11:04,179
Just out of university, I worked for News International.

1351
01:11:04,619 --> 01:11:08,039
Um, actually I started while I was in university and...

1352
01:11:08,604 --> 01:11:12,164
Uh, they owned, News International is this huge company that owns the Times,

1353
01:11:12,314 --> 01:11:14,334
the Sun, uh, lots of different things.

1354
01:11:14,874 --> 01:11:21,654
And, uh, um, and they had a internet service provider.

1355
01:11:21,764 --> 01:11:27,524
This was very early days, this was in the nineties, um, called, um, Delphi

1356
01:11:27,614 --> 01:11:32,794
Internet, and they were competing with AOL and CompuServe and so on and so forth.

1357
01:11:33,024 --> 01:11:35,494
Way back, if you remember these names.

1358
01:11:35,974 --> 01:11:36,584
Um.

1359
01:11:36,969 --> 01:11:40,309
And I was in customer service, and then I noticed that they had a programming

1360
01:11:40,309 --> 01:11:43,349
language in the customer service system, um, and it would normally

1361
01:11:43,349 --> 01:11:46,619
take, you know, 30 minutes to deal with one customer because of all the

1362
01:11:46,619 --> 01:11:47,979
manual screens you had to go through.

1363
01:11:48,009 --> 01:11:51,999
I automated that, so the target was to be able to do 10 customers a day, and all of

1364
01:11:51,999 --> 01:11:55,789
a sudden I was doing 20 customers coming in, they were playing basketball, and

1365
01:11:55,899 --> 01:11:59,759
I was beating all the targets, and they asked me why, and I explained that I'd

1366
01:11:59,779 --> 01:12:04,109
automated the system, if you give me a team, And the team was from my university,

1367
01:12:04,239 --> 01:12:05,859
um, we couldn't automate it further.

1368
01:12:06,099 --> 01:12:10,219
And within a month, basically, we only had to work an hour a

1369
01:12:10,219 --> 01:12:11,449
day to do all of our targets.

1370
01:12:11,979 --> 01:12:15,329
So they got some new, um, students in to do that and go, well, what

1371
01:12:15,349 --> 01:12:16,219
do you want to do in Certicles?

1372
01:12:16,259 --> 01:12:18,449
Well, there's this internet thing that's starting to become very popular.

1373
01:12:19,309 --> 01:12:22,339
Can we, um, and you're in news, let's be...

1374
01:12:22,869 --> 01:12:24,479
Let's become digital journalists.

1375
01:12:24,729 --> 01:12:26,089
We didn't call them bloggers then.

1376
01:12:26,179 --> 01:12:28,699
It was just digital before the name of bloggers.

1377
01:12:29,219 --> 01:12:30,519
So we started doing that.

1378
01:12:30,559 --> 01:12:32,239
But I wasn't really interested in digital journalism.

1379
01:12:32,269 --> 01:12:33,769
I was still interested in code.

1380
01:12:34,309 --> 01:12:38,479
And I was interested in games like SimCity at the time.

1381
01:12:38,749 --> 01:12:39,629
It was a single player game.

1382
01:12:39,629 --> 01:12:44,659
And I thought, wouldn't it be great if I could play against Other people, like real

1383
01:12:44,659 --> 01:12:50,089
time and I, um, and also like SimCity, but a little bit more interesting.

1384
01:12:50,109 --> 01:12:55,079
So you couldn't just build houses and so on, but you could also like

1385
01:12:55,129 --> 01:12:58,999
firebomb other people's houses or produce, do smear campaigns in them,

1386
01:12:58,999 --> 01:13:00,709
in the local press and stuff like that.

1387
01:13:01,109 --> 01:13:04,599
And so we made this sort of like dark version of SimCity, which was

1388
01:13:04,609 --> 01:13:07,199
multiplayer and we called it Netropolis.

1389
01:13:08,609 --> 01:13:15,559
And, uh, and, um, built the first version and it was like, literally I built the,

1390
01:13:15,749 --> 01:13:21,439
um, myself, um, another member from my university, I built the backend sort of.

1391
01:13:22,009 --> 01:13:24,009
logic, the server for it.

1392
01:13:24,009 --> 01:13:28,999
And he built the front end interface and, um, and it was launched on our site.

1393
01:13:29,359 --> 01:13:32,059
Um, not much marketing, but it built a sort of like a

1394
01:13:32,069 --> 01:13:33,219
cult following at one point.

1395
01:13:33,219 --> 01:13:36,169
It had, I still, people are playing it today.

1396
01:13:36,169 --> 01:13:36,859
I think, I don't know.

1397
01:13:36,859 --> 01:13:42,689
I, unfortunately I was like early twenties and I was not commercially, um, focused.

1398
01:13:42,689 --> 01:13:45,959
I don't have any rights to the game, but it had over a million users and people

1399
01:13:45,959 --> 01:13:47,729
were playing it for the last 20 years.

1400
01:13:48,199 --> 01:13:53,019
Um, after that, so that was the, um, later on, um, in my career,

1401
01:13:53,119 --> 01:13:57,629
I worked, um, a CTO for various sort of multinational companies.

1402
01:13:58,324 --> 01:14:03,764
Um, um, online auctions, one of the, eventually sold for 2 billion

1403
01:14:03,764 --> 01:14:08,664
to NASPERS, um, was competing with, with eBay and so on at the time.

1404
01:14:09,244 --> 01:14:13,894
Um, and then I went on to work for a company that made a.

1405
01:14:14,404 --> 01:14:17,524
Um, a character called, they were called weemies, like these little

1406
01:14:17,534 --> 01:14:22,004
characters on Microsoft avatar things prior to NFTs, but basically they're

1407
01:14:22,124 --> 01:14:23,384
like the similar sort of idea.

1408
01:14:23,874 --> 01:14:28,664
And, um, um, but without a token, obviously this was,

1409
01:14:28,664 --> 01:14:29,724
this was like 15 years ago.

1410
01:14:30,124 --> 01:14:37,799
Um, No, not 20 years, no, 17, 18 years ago, maybe, but, um, these, um,

1411
01:14:37,979 --> 01:14:44,079
characters, um, they had originally been popular on Facebook and Microsoft and

1412
01:14:44,189 --> 01:14:48,089
they had, we had about three, three or 4 million Weemees, but then we decided,

1413
01:14:48,089 --> 01:14:49,549
let's make a home for the Weemees.

1414
01:14:49,579 --> 01:14:55,869
So we built this massive multiplayer virtual world called Weeworld and, um,

1415
01:14:56,159 --> 01:14:59,729
and, and then you needed this sort of, and it was competing, it was aimed at sort of.

1416
01:15:00,064 --> 01:15:04,354
Teenagers, mainly female audience, uh, mainly American.

1417
01:15:04,674 --> 01:15:07,284
So if you're an American teenager around that time, you would, you

1418
01:15:07,284 --> 01:15:08,814
would know it, or a young teenager.

1419
01:15:09,094 --> 01:15:12,534
The competition with people like Habbo Hotel, Club Penguin was for a bit

1420
01:15:12,534 --> 01:15:16,554
younger than us, Second Life was for a lot older, 18 plus, and we were sort of

1421
01:15:16,554 --> 01:15:17,994
in this sort of teenage middle point.

1422
01:15:18,579 --> 01:15:22,969
And yeah, we grew from these 3 million, we were bootstrapped from these 3 million

1423
01:15:22,989 --> 01:15:26,219
sort of individual users, they now had a place to go and they could travel around

1424
01:15:26,219 --> 01:15:31,369
and there were rooms and you could create your own room and decorate it and we did

1425
01:15:31,499 --> 01:15:36,762
partnerships with special branded stuff with Nike and And then Justin Bieber, when

1426
01:15:36,762 --> 01:15:39,934
he was early on in his career, we could, you could have a Justin Bieber sort of

1427
01:15:39,934 --> 01:15:44,224
we me in your room, say that your, your, your boyfriend was Justin Bieber, you

1428
01:15:44,224 --> 01:15:50,074
know, and then it grew, we ended up with about 30 million, 30 million active users.

1429
01:15:50,419 --> 01:15:51,829
Oh, so that was a lot.

1430
01:15:52,029 --> 01:15:55,199
That was, uh, so yeah, first phase for me was, was AI.

1431
01:15:55,349 --> 01:16:00,189
I was studying in university, um, and I, I was really a big fan for neural

1432
01:16:00,189 --> 01:16:06,209
networks, but I didn't progress with that because I just thought the, the

1433
01:16:06,209 --> 01:16:10,139
processing power requirements were just way above what was needed at that time.

1434
01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:11,629
So you can only do very simple things.

1435
01:16:11,649 --> 01:16:14,639
Now we've got to a point where we've reached this inflection point where

1436
01:16:14,649 --> 01:16:16,279
processing power is powerful enough.

1437
01:16:16,279 --> 01:16:19,939
The actual code is not really that much different from 20 years ago.

1438
01:16:19,939 --> 01:16:22,399
It's the processing power is caught up and all of a sudden

1439
01:16:22,439 --> 01:16:23,749
you have this emergent behavior.

1440
01:16:24,179 --> 01:16:28,099
Then the next phase was dot com and they worked for various dot com startups

1441
01:16:28,189 --> 01:16:33,959
and auctions and online travel and so on that all had teams of hundreds of

1442
01:16:33,959 --> 01:16:36,029
people working for me across the world.

1443
01:16:36,554 --> 01:16:41,714
Then, then it was back to massively multiplayer online games with

1444
01:16:41,724 --> 01:16:43,364
games up to 30 million users.

1445
01:16:44,284 --> 01:16:49,614
And then I became my own boss and I had first company, um, which was

1446
01:16:49,914 --> 01:16:53,864
sold and, uh, it's an interesting connection to superheroes in

1447
01:16:53,864 --> 01:16:55,094
that one, but I won't bore you.

1448
01:16:55,504 --> 01:16:56,204
That's another story.

1449
01:16:56,784 --> 01:16:58,134
And the second company, and

1450
01:17:01,244 --> 01:17:06,789
the second company was, uh, Um, I tried to get into physical hardware, big

1451
01:17:06,789 --> 01:17:11,509
mistake, cause it's like, you know, money, many trips to Shenzhen in China

1452
01:17:11,509 --> 01:17:15,919
and realizing that should stick to my, my game, which is like software.

1453
01:17:16,099 --> 01:17:18,809
And then the third one was a Bitcoin exchange.

1454
01:17:19,299 --> 01:17:25,519
And that's where I learned, you know, eight years, um, 2013 to 2021, learned

1455
01:17:25,639 --> 01:17:27,669
a ton, made a lot of connections.

1456
01:17:28,129 --> 01:17:32,529
Try to stick to the, as much as possible, to the right path and that

1457
01:17:32,549 --> 01:17:37,779
all fed together to, uh, to help me with, with Feddy, the knowledge from

1458
01:17:37,779 --> 01:17:40,419
all of those different backgrounds have just come together in one place.

1459
01:17:40,469 --> 01:17:44,809
And I, and I really feel grateful that all of that knowledge I can

1460
01:17:44,809 --> 01:17:48,939
now apply to something which is helping communities around the world.

1461
01:17:49,109 --> 01:17:49,609
Um.

1462
01:17:50,064 --> 01:17:53,694
To, to become, to be connected with freedom technology so we

1463
01:17:53,694 --> 01:17:55,444
can basically level up humanity.

1464
01:17:56,414 --> 01:17:56,944
Excellent.

1465
01:17:57,244 --> 01:18:00,284
Obi, good luck with everything and thanks so much for

1466
01:18:00,284 --> 01:18:00,674
coming on this show.

1467
01:18:00,674 --> 01:18:01,884
Good to see you.

1468
01:18:02,564 --> 01:18:02,754
Good to see you.

1469
01:18:02,804 --> 01:18:03,104
We did it.

1470
01:18:03,324 --> 01:18:03,644
Yeah.

1471
01:18:04,034 --> 01:18:04,424
Okay.

1472
01:18:04,474 --> 01:18:05,174
Thanks a lot, Obi.

1473
01:18:05,404 --> 01:18:05,684
Yeah.

1474
01:18:05,884 --> 01:18:06,494
Have a good one, mate.

1475
01:18:06,494 --> 01:18:06,584
Yes.

1476
01:18:07,054 --> 01:18:07,364
Likewise.

1477
01:18:07,364 --> 01:18:07,769
It's like, it's

1478
01:18:07,769 --> 01:18:14,824
like, it's like the Arnie, it's like the Arnie, uh, the Predator, the Predator.

1479
01:18:14,824 --> 01:18:16,374
It's like, we can do it.

1480
01:18:17,134 --> 01:18:21,354
I mean, almost like exactly like, uh, the guys from Predator,

1481
01:18:21,494 --> 01:18:22,694
it's like the same size.

1482
01:18:23,084 --> 01:18:24,344
It will take a few millimetres.

1483
01:18:24,664 --> 01:18:25,664
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1484
01:18:25,664 --> 01:18:27,004
yeah, yeah, exactly.

1485
01:18:28,714 --> 01:18:29,604
That's a soft stop.

1486
01:18:29,674 --> 01:18:30,454
We're done now.

1487
01:18:30,464 --> 01:18:31,324
Have you seen this

1488
01:18:31,324 --> 01:18:31,614
one?

1489
01:18:31,804 --> 01:18:32,114
White

1490
01:18:32,164 --> 01:18:33,354
man, black man.

1491
01:18:33,604 --> 01:18:34,164
Batman.