Giacomo Zucco at Lugano Plan ₿ - FFS #62

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giacomo, welcome

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to the Freedom Footprint show again.

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My pleasure.

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Thank you for having me.

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Yeah, today we have our dear friend, the king of Swiss

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cheese, uh, Giacomo Socco on.

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Uh, great to be here in Lugano.

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I mean, you're a big part of this, uh, event.

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You're like speaking all the time.

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Yes, six speeches and you can probably tell

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from my voice right now.

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So, and we enjoy being here a lot.

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I mean, this place is beautiful, or at least I, I, I assume it

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is if it wasn't for the rain.

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So you can actually

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see that.

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We scammed people last year.

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It was very sunny in October.

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So everybody was eager to come back to this sunny Lugano in October

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and then we ragpulled the climate.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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So first question, uh, this is going to be a controversial one.

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Is Tether retarded?

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That's a, that's a good question.

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I think it's not necessarily retarded for a very, uh, for a very nuanced reason.

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There are two things you can do with blockchains that are not Bitcoin.

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Uh, well, there's one thing, scamming people.

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But the two things that you can do is, they depend on which

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people are you going to scam.

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If you're going to scam your investors, Because you just issue

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some kind of, uh, stupid, uh, share of a stupid enterprise, but you put

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a blockchain on that so that investor will be duped into, into investing.

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I think that's bad.

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That's like, that's a bad use of the power we have to scam people.

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But if you do scam only regulators.

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So if you want, if some people want to trade stuff and they really want to do

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that for innocent reasons and you cannot provide them a service because regulators

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are going to stop you from that with violence and you scam the regulators with

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some blockchain magic, I think that's a noble use of our ability to scam people.

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Tether is interesting because they are scamming the regulators

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with blockchain magic.

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Basically, they are not doing anything different from PayPal.

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But PayPal is heavily regulated in the secondary market that

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there is not because blockchain.

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So as long as it works, it's great.

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And can they, uh, dupe investors?

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Not really because the price of their product cannot go up by

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definition if the, because there is a blockchain on top of it.

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It can just not go down maybe as a credit denominated in dollars.

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So they are doing a dollar service, which is very Bitcoin friendly, which

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basically it's a Bitcoin friendly PayPal that uses blockchain magic

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thinking Two scam regulators into being more free on the secondary market.

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So overall, I think it's a good deal as long as it

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lasts.

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So it's not more of a scam than the US dollar

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is a scam?

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Well, it's more of a risk in a way because the underlying, uh, basically the

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underlying counterparty, the underlying, uh, collateral is already scam is dollar.

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So it's inflated, they could collapse.

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On top of that, you have, uh, on top of the base dollar, You also have

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the fact that these banks that Tether use, I must be trusted not to do

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excess fractional reserves and stuff.

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And on top of that, you have to trust the company itself, which of course

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could do additional fractional reserves.

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So it is increased risk.

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I don't think it's increasingly scammy.

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It's quite honest, especially in the latest.

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Communication, everything you can read from the CEO, Paolo, and we

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discussed here Lugano as well, it's pretty straightforward.

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He cannot put it exactly how I did for obvious legal reasons,

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otherwise the operation will be over.

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But I think that if you talk with him, the, the, the purpose

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of the operation is very simple.

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It's a company which is very Bitcoin first, and they just want

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a tool that can help people to move fiat into Bitcoin basically.

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Sometimes also For a realistic consideration that many people are

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not, are still scared of short term volatility, and they are still very, uh,

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cold on brand recognizement for Bitcoin.

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The dollar has the universal, uh, recognition that Bitcoin will

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have, but it's still missing.

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And Bitcoin, and the dollar will probably lose that.

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So eventually, I think that other things that is interesting is that

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the Tether, the company, It was born over this product that I just

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described, but then it went beyond it.

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One exception was Bitcoin, was TetherGold.

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I think it's very, very cool.

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TetherGold is just e gold with, uh, it's basically they have physical

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gold in a vault here in Switzerland, and the issue is TetherGold.

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This is just like e gold, but it's not in the U.

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S.

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So it's probably more resilient to regulatory aggression because

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Switzerland is a little bit more serious.

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And it is, uh, it is done after Bitcoin.

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So there is the, the blockchain magical thinking on top of it, which

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is making, increasing the plausible deniability for the secondary market.

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So Tetra Gold, I mean, I will make this classification.

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Bitcoin is the best and it's the final solution.

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And we have to go Bitcoin.

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There is no way around it.

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And.

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Tether people would agree.

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You can find it every interview that they would agree.

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The second best would be physical gold, but it's still hard to try to, to, uh,

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basically the reason gold is not as good as Bitcoin is that it's not digital.

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You cannot transfer it.

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Then there is this digital gold, which is tether gold that is basically.

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Um, trusted, but with probably good enough guarantees.

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It's like an eagle that will not be likely shut down.

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Then there is the theta dollar, which is worse because the dollar is going

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to be inflated into nothing eventually.

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And because While Tether can hold the gold themselves in a, in a

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mountain, it's a very cool mountain base in Switzerland, they cannot

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do that with physical dollar cash.

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There's no bank that does many billions in physical cash, so it's more risky,

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but it's still a useful tool for some people to approach Bitcoin eventually.

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I think we don't need.

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stablecoin.

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But I think that if done honestly, they can help somebody and not

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hurt Bitcoin because eventually, I mean, they're not stable.

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They're just back into something which

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is very oxymoronic name.

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Right.

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Well,

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I hate that name.

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Those are basically blockchain marketed fiat credits.

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So, so could the like, tether gold, could they potentially

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do a fractional reserve on

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that?

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Like legally they have a, they have a contract that's, uh, that says that

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they don't, and they have auditors.

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And auditors say that they can, so technically for the Bitcoin

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mindset, where it is not like you, uh, don't be evil, but can be evil.

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Oh yeah.

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Uh, they can physically, uh, but they will have to, uh, scam or bribe the auditor.

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So it's hard.

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While with dollars, you mean, uh, there is probably more, uh, even

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if I didn't trust the detector guy, dollar is more complex as a topic

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because they cannot have the cash.

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They will have commercial paper that will, a lot of nuances.

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With gold, there is no nuances.

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There are physical, uh, gold bullions

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inside the Lord of the Rings or something.

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If you, if you, I mean, if you are very nice with it,

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there may be some day you will

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see it.

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We'll see.

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All right.

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So, so this leads us into risks of fractional reserve.

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So So you Custodial lightning wallets, we had this conversation with Obi yesterday,

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uh, uh, is there a risk, do you see a risk in that, that, uh, wallets of Satoshi will

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all of a sudden start, you know, handing out more bitcoins than they actually have?

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Like

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what?

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There is.

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I think that the reason that, uh, it will be quite evident is that what

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fractional reserve banking does is to reduce the custody, uh, the custody fee.

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And to increase, uh, uh, interest, uh, uh, give away to the user.

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So when you get to the Satoshi is paying you to use it, probably

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you should start being concerned.

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So it's technically possible.

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What you use when you use, well, the Satoshi is you are basically

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asking a friend to use Lighting Network for you in your name.

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Which, I mean, if the friend is reliable and the money is not that

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much, I, frankly, I don't think that Volato Satoshi or Albi, the Custodian

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version, will be censored very soon.

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And I don't think they will rug pull very soon for the simple

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reason that the money is not much.

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So it's not enough money to rug pull, not enough money to censor yet.

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If it became the cornerstone of Bitcoin, like some exchanges are, then the

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incentives will change completely.

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Bill, they're very useful tools, I mean, that you can do a ton of things with them.

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I was very critical before, because my point was, if you want to do

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custody at the margin, so Alfini said, Bitcoin base chain doesn't scale.

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But it's still cool.

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We have the asset.

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Now we can build custody on top of that.

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Illegal custody, like anarchist kind of, uh, like Bitcoin banks.

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Some people thought that Al was talking about actual banks.

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He was talking about people on Tor just building a reputation as a bank, because

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you don't need any paperwork for that.

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Just give me Bitcoin.

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Trust me, bro.

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I will give it back to you.

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That can happen at the margin.

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It was a sad trade off to make, but it was a trade off that we had to make.

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With Lightning, with the techniques of trustless UTXO sharing, we can have,

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uh, one single Bitcoin TXO, which is shared by more people without trusting

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each other, or at least in some, uh, within some security, uh, scenario.

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And that's cool, even better.

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So Lightning is better.

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So my point was, if you want to trust, Trust.

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If you want Lightning, which is trustless, go Lightning.

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But what's the point of putting trust on top of Lightning?

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And I changed my mind because I think there is a point.

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It's a very nice layerization.

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You have the main chain, then you change your security model for the second layer.

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And then even actually Lightning is two layers in one because you

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have the channel and the routing.

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When you go routing, you are still changing your security model.

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Routing nodes is, uh, are very, are dangerous.

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Like there was an attack discovered two days ago, well, a few days ago.

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When you route Lightning, you, your funds are more in danger.

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Then on top of that, you can, you can basically serve people with credit.

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But why put the crate directly on top of the base layer?

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It's nicer, actually more elegant, if you give the users a very smooth way to go

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from trust to trustless without big jumps.

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So you start with, for example, Albi is very good.

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You start with the pocket silver, trusted.

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Uh, they will ragpoll you.

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Okay, so what is pocket silver?

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They will confiscate it.

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Ah, go for it.

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It's just my pocket silver.

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You increase the amount of money you have to move.

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Oh, now you probably want your node still on Lightning, but maybe you want

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to route because you're reckless, you want to do business, you want to be

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safer long term, and you don't want to have a watchtower to take, to take

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control, then maybe go to a Lightning leaf that's not routing, it's much safer.

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If you want to be safer, just close the channel and go back on chain,

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uh, so you can stay there and the, uh, on Lightning, the more time

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passes, the more risk you get.

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On base chain, the more time passes, the less risk you get.

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So that's great.

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So it's a nice thing.

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Uh, I think we should not.

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Uh, I think we should culturally fight for non custodianship always, uh, ever.

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So custody is okay, should not be a meme because it's like, it's like

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when you, when you eat or when you indulge in any kind of like a high

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time preference thing, uh, it's okay.

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Eating is a high time preference.

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Well, eating, eating garbage, especially, uh, or, or smoking or whatever.

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Well, there is no need to create a culture that normalizes that, uh, if

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you create a culture that, that's, that creates the, uh, that, that specifies

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the long term problem with that.

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So a culture of caution, then people will still ignore the culture and

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make a cheated meal or something.

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So you don't need to praise cheat meals, just praise the right diet,

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culturally speaking, and be tolerant with the fact that people will.

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Cheat meal, because that's fine because I mean, YOLO.

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00:11:54,736 --> 00:11:59,056
So, so is custodial lightning layer three in your opinion?

242
00:11:59,056 --> 00:11:59,806
Well, I think the

243
00:11:59,806 --> 00:12:02,846
lightings are two layers, at least.

244
00:12:03,236 --> 00:12:06,426
There are many layers inside lightning, but the real trust

245
00:12:06,426 --> 00:12:07,986
related layers are two different.

246
00:12:08,476 --> 00:12:12,486
Uh, channel and routing are very different trade offs, and I think the

247
00:12:12,496 --> 00:12:16,606
more we go on, the more it's clear that routing is way more dangerous

248
00:12:16,636 --> 00:12:20,396
than just having a channel with your counterparty and going back and forth.

249
00:12:20,756 --> 00:12:26,236
So we say that lighting is a lighting channel, or in the future, a L2 channel,

250
00:12:26,276 --> 00:12:27,736
an ARC channel, an ARC provider.

251
00:12:27,736 --> 00:12:29,606
So UTXO sharing.

252
00:12:30,106 --> 00:12:33,846
So sharing your Bitcoin TXO is layer two, in my opinion, that's

253
00:12:34,196 --> 00:12:35,466
the most elegant definition.

254
00:12:35,856 --> 00:12:39,696
Routing on, atomic routing on top of your TXO sharing is layer three.

255
00:12:40,146 --> 00:12:48,406
Uh, and then, uh, asking, uh, a friend to keep, uh, a channel for you, but it's not

256
00:12:48,406 --> 00:12:50,146
yours, that would be probably layer four.

257
00:12:50,566 --> 00:12:50,886
Okay,

258
00:12:50,886 --> 00:12:51,876
so what's an Opendime?

259
00:12:51,886 --> 00:12:52,316
What layer

260
00:12:52,316 --> 00:12:52,696
is that?

261
00:12:52,756 --> 00:12:53,986
That's, that's very interesting.

262
00:12:53,986 --> 00:12:59,396
I would say that, uh, that's, uh, Opendime is basically, uh, trust plus plus.

263
00:12:59,436 --> 00:13:01,936
It's, it's a very badass kind of trust.

264
00:13:02,216 --> 00:13:04,736
You still have to trust another provider basically.

265
00:13:05,036 --> 00:13:08,856
So it's cool, but it's probably a layer four with, with some

266
00:13:08,856 --> 00:13:13,336
kind of, well, probably you go, when you discuss this stuff with

267
00:13:13,336 --> 00:13:14,766
Maxi Morlowski, you start to go.

268
00:13:14,846 --> 00:13:16,526
Thread three dimension with layers.

269
00:13:16,526 --> 00:13:17,176
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

270
00:13:17,176 --> 00:13:19,076
Basically slight layers going down.

271
00:13:19,076 --> 00:13:20,726
So I, I'm not as good.

272
00:13:20,726 --> 00:13:20,876
I'm

273
00:13:20,876 --> 00:13:25,346
envisioning like the layers in an Asher painting, like going into, so,

274
00:13:25,976 --> 00:13:33,271
alright, so, so I had this idea, um, a year back or two, uh, about like, As

275
00:13:33,571 --> 00:13:38,291
Bitcoin scales, this is connected to the time preference thing, that people

276
00:13:38,291 --> 00:13:42,711
will use money less and less, like, and will spend less because, because of the

277
00:13:42,721 --> 00:13:46,911
time preferencing, you're incentivized to prioritize quality over quantity.

278
00:13:46,911 --> 00:13:52,341
So do you think that, like, in general, do people with, is

279
00:13:52,381 --> 00:13:53,951
that something you see play out?

280
00:13:54,246 --> 00:13:54,966
That's a cool idea.

281
00:13:54,966 --> 00:13:55,306
Yeah.

282
00:13:55,556 --> 00:13:59,956
Bitcoin can scale because you reduce the need to use, uh, monetary transaction.

283
00:14:00,406 --> 00:14:02,226
That's, that's, I think that's a fair assumption.

284
00:14:02,706 --> 00:14:08,196
Still, maybe scaling as a technological problem is still challenging and

285
00:14:08,206 --> 00:14:09,936
interesting, but that's social.

286
00:14:10,326 --> 00:14:11,346
Version is also very

287
00:14:11,346 --> 00:14:11,826
interesting.

288
00:14:11,826 --> 00:14:11,886
Yeah.

289
00:14:11,886 --> 00:14:15,396
Because it's never talked about in the technical discussions about scaling.

290
00:14:15,636 --> 00:14:20,186
And there's another thing to it, like, um, the, with Bitcoin, uh,

291
00:14:20,246 --> 00:14:25,316
with the deflationary currency, uh, or money, you, you're incentivized

292
00:14:25,316 --> 00:14:26,606
to lower your term preference.

293
00:14:26,606 --> 00:14:26,786
Right?

294
00:14:27,236 --> 00:14:30,706
Uh, but the other thing is that you're also at least now,

295
00:14:31,036 --> 00:14:35,206
uh, incentivized to help other Bitcoiners with whatever they do.

296
00:14:35,536 --> 00:14:38,656
Because we help each other, we help Bitcoin, and we all win.

297
00:14:39,851 --> 00:14:44,291
And I don't see a point in time where that incentive necessarily goes away.

298
00:14:44,291 --> 00:14:49,151
So if we're just incentivized to be awesome to one another, I see like people

299
00:14:49,156 --> 00:14:53,471
interacting voluntarily and trading other things than Bitcoin might like.

300
00:14:53,471 --> 00:14:59,371
Services mostly like Bitcoiners, like this, this thing, for instance, is

301
00:14:59,371 --> 00:15:00,751
a transaction between me and you.

302
00:15:00,751 --> 00:15:00,811
Yeah.

303
00:15:00,851 --> 00:15:03,091
And we're not spending money and we're not spending, we're not You.

304
00:15:03,801 --> 00:15:06,661
clogging the chain at all by doing this.

305
00:15:07,311 --> 00:15:11,261
So, so is that a part of the scaling problem and solution?

306
00:15:11,951 --> 00:15:12,791
Yeah, I think it is.

307
00:15:12,791 --> 00:15:13,641
Let's put it this way.

308
00:15:13,961 --> 00:15:17,671
Money is useful aside a trust circle.

309
00:15:18,061 --> 00:15:20,781
So within the trust economy, the gift economy of family

310
00:15:20,781 --> 00:15:22,211
monies is just redundant.

311
00:15:22,481 --> 00:15:25,206
You just exchange You just be nice with each other.

312
00:15:25,506 --> 00:15:30,126
And things may just, uh, even out over the long term.

313
00:15:30,356 --> 00:15:35,156
Maybe the parent is taking care for the child, not for any return, but

314
00:15:35,156 --> 00:15:39,416
then maybe when the parent is old, there will be some kind of, that.

315
00:15:43,401 --> 00:15:47,851
Bitcoin is a good money, but it's also a kind of money that as a side effect can

316
00:15:47,931 --> 00:15:52,861
increase trust circles in a very unique way, so that's a fair way to put it.

317
00:15:52,871 --> 00:15:53,151
Yeah,

318
00:15:53,331 --> 00:15:58,611
so if you follow that thought vector far off into the future, is that like,

319
00:15:58,821 --> 00:16:04,151
because I find this so, like a beautiful paradox that don't trust verify.

320
00:16:04,666 --> 00:16:08,286
enables us to trust one another more because you, you don't have the

321
00:16:08,286 --> 00:16:10,166
incentive to try to cheat and system.

322
00:16:10,406 --> 00:16:14,456
And you know that if more and more people are living in this world, I mean, I, I

323
00:16:14,456 --> 00:16:18,186
trust the people here at this conference way more than I trust the normie.

324
00:16:20,046 --> 00:16:24,876
So, so, so if we really try to extrapolate that, do we get.

325
00:16:25,211 --> 00:16:28,971
To a place where the necessity for money to exist at all,

326
00:16:28,981 --> 00:16:33,791
it's just, I think that you can increase the number, number, let's say, of trust

327
00:16:33,791 --> 00:16:35,511
to a certain point, but not at infinite.

328
00:16:35,511 --> 00:16:38,941
I think that eventually there is more bitcoins that you can even understand.

329
00:16:39,071 --> 00:16:39,381
No, but

330
00:16:39,391 --> 00:16:43,611
not infinite, but like trending towards, and will that ever be a

331
00:16:43,651 --> 00:16:44,341
trajectory?

332
00:16:44,341 --> 00:16:47,881
Like in your mind, you still have to perceive a community of like minded

333
00:16:47,881 --> 00:16:49,531
people working toward the same goal.

334
00:16:49,881 --> 00:16:50,891
Now you have it in Bitcoin.

335
00:16:50,891 --> 00:16:51,466
Yeah.

336
00:16:51,576 --> 00:16:55,956
You have, you have an internal fractal of different cultures and motives and

337
00:16:55,956 --> 00:16:59,126
trends, but you still have a unitary bit.

338
00:16:59,136 --> 00:17:03,426
We are here for Bitcoin and you can see that you can feel that that, I

339
00:17:03,426 --> 00:17:07,366
don't know if that can scale to, for example, really millions of people.

340
00:17:08,486 --> 00:17:13,506
So they like rock and roll scales to billions, but being a rocker

341
00:17:13,686 --> 00:17:17,766
with, let's say with, with bicycles and motorbikes, they scale.

342
00:17:18,016 --> 00:17:19,576
But being a biker is another thing.

343
00:17:20,206 --> 00:17:23,606
So then the Bitcoin culture, which is what you're describing will, will

344
00:17:23,636 --> 00:17:28,066
persist, but we'll probably not grow outside of what the biker culture will do.

345
00:17:28,066 --> 00:17:28,426
Okay.

346
00:17:28,436 --> 00:17:31,666
So it's, uh, yeah, fair point.

347
00:17:32,112 --> 00:17:34,122
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348
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349
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350
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351
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352
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353
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354
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355
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356
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357
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358
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364
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373
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378
00:19:00,211 --> 00:19:04,951
There's another thing adjacent to this, which is another, what I've been eager

379
00:19:04,971 --> 00:19:07,471
to talk to you about for a long time is this idea I've been talking about

380
00:19:07,471 --> 00:19:12,101
for a while of you, that, you know, We are the bitcoins, like the people,

381
00:19:12,101 --> 00:19:15,341
they, they, since it's only keeping a secret, they exist in your head.

382
00:19:15,791 --> 00:19:19,241
The node is not the raspberry pie, it's the guy deciding to

383
00:19:19,271 --> 00:19:20,741
buy one and run the software.

384
00:19:20,741 --> 00:19:24,901
And the, the miners, the miner is not the asic, it's the guy who

385
00:19:24,961 --> 00:19:26,431
chooses to buy one and run the hard.

386
00:19:26,671 --> 00:19:28,642
So what do you say to that?

387
00:19:28,647 --> 00:19:28,711
What?

388
00:19:28,711 --> 00:19:29,961
Like what's your angle?

389
00:19:30,171 --> 00:19:30,621
I agree.

390
00:19:30,621 --> 00:19:31,881
People is layer zero.

391
00:19:31,881 --> 00:19:35,841
But I mean, this also, this is true for Bitcoin and it's an important point

392
00:19:35,841 --> 00:19:40,326
because, People may think that the Bitcoin is secure, but just by automatic processes

393
00:19:40,366 --> 00:19:42,836
is actually secure by human incentives.

394
00:19:42,856 --> 00:19:43,166
So

395
00:19:43,316 --> 00:19:45,026
by human, backed by human action.

396
00:19:45,036 --> 00:19:45,616
It's human action.

397
00:19:45,656 --> 00:19:46,006
Yeah.

398
00:19:46,256 --> 00:19:49,056
Which is a point that is made, I think very well by Erik

399
00:19:49,116 --> 00:19:50,946
Voskville in Cryptoeconomics.

400
00:19:50,966 --> 00:19:52,996
There is this book that makes this point pretty well.

401
00:19:53,196 --> 00:19:56,566
It's just a human act, human actors, basically.

402
00:19:56,826 --> 00:20:00,226
And then you, these human actors can use tools and this tool can change.

403
00:20:00,546 --> 00:20:03,456
The relative power or the relative, uh, the incentive.

404
00:20:03,456 --> 00:20:08,876
So tools matter, but is, but, but human action matters more and the more

405
00:20:08,916 --> 00:20:13,426
tools are tuned to help human action and to synchronize, coordinate human

406
00:20:13,426 --> 00:20:15,106
action, the better the tools are.

407
00:20:15,576 --> 00:20:19,606
Uh, there may be an even deeper point, like, uh, this may sound

408
00:20:19,606 --> 00:20:24,588
crazy, but my deep conviction from a philosophical level as a, as a former

409
00:20:24,588 --> 00:20:32,021
physicist is that, uh, People are layer zero of reality, not just Bitcoin.

410
00:20:32,061 --> 00:20:37,571
I think that, uh, well, materialism, consensus, which I think is very fiat, is

411
00:20:37,571 --> 00:20:42,231
that, uh, you have fields or particles, but mostly fields in modern physics.

412
00:20:42,471 --> 00:20:46,011
And then as an emergent phenomenon, uh, you have yourself.

413
00:20:46,481 --> 00:20:48,591
And I think it's actually the other way around.

414
00:20:48,751 --> 00:20:49,471
You have selves.

415
00:20:50,006 --> 00:20:52,206
You have a perception, you have consciousness, you have

416
00:20:52,206 --> 00:20:53,976
choice as a fundamental layer.

417
00:20:54,176 --> 00:21:00,856
And that has been demonstrated to a point by, for example, David

418
00:21:01,306 --> 00:21:03,846
Hoffman or other physicists.

419
00:21:04,196 --> 00:21:08,656
When you assume a network of conscious agents, you can build...

420
00:21:09,136 --> 00:21:13,176
Uh, general relativity and, and, and a draft of quantum physics.

421
00:21:13,576 --> 00:21:17,926
Uh, so basically, or also when you go deep into quantum mechanics, they,

422
00:21:17,946 --> 00:21:21,146
one of the interpretations of quantum mechanics that I think is the least, uh,

423
00:21:22,356 --> 00:21:27,886
it's the least, uh, uh, convoluted is basically assuming the observer as the

424
00:21:27,886 --> 00:21:32,436
fundamental unit of physics and everything outside of that actually has the

425
00:21:32,476 --> 00:21:36,301
emergent, apparent, temporary Phenomenon.

426
00:21:36,631 --> 00:21:40,561
So in this way I like, I like to framing it because I think that not

427
00:21:40,561 --> 00:21:44,971
just Bitcoin is made by people, but like chairs, tables, and stars, everything.

428
00:21:44,971 --> 00:21:45,091
Yeah.

429
00:21:45,681 --> 00:21:46,771
literally stars.

430
00:21:46,861 --> 00:21:46,921
Yeah.

431
00:21:46,921 --> 00:21:47,401
I read a,

432
00:21:47,401 --> 00:21:51,151
a really interesting theory once called the the meme theory of Everything.

433
00:21:51,201 --> 00:21:54,381
Uh, what, what we, what we define as objective reality.

434
00:21:54,381 --> 00:21:58,311
This table here, for instance, is, is where our memes collide.

435
00:21:58,311 --> 00:22:04,881
So it's where, where the consciousness is, consciousness is, uh, uh, , where,

436
00:22:04,886 --> 00:22:06,291
where they sort of intertwine.

437
00:22:06,981 --> 00:22:14,231
Uh, but that leads to all sorts of other, uh, strange, um, Realizations

438
00:22:14,231 --> 00:22:17,831
like that there is a meme horizon, for instance, and we couldn't sync with

439
00:22:18,211 --> 00:22:21,191
brems brains outside of the solar system.

440
00:22:21,451 --> 00:22:22,861
Well, minds even more

441
00:22:22,861 --> 00:22:23,001
than

442
00:22:23,001 --> 00:22:23,321
brains.

443
00:22:24,321 --> 00:22:25,251
I mean, minds.

444
00:22:25,251 --> 00:22:25,501
Yeah.

445
00:22:25,501 --> 00:22:25,731
Yeah.

446
00:22:25,731 --> 00:22:26,821
That's a better term to use.

447
00:22:27,151 --> 00:22:33,366
Uh, uh, for instance, it would explain why the Apollo, the signals from the

448
00:22:33,366 --> 00:22:38,916
first Apollo satellite, um, is, are so strange, um, and why they get, why the

449
00:22:38,916 --> 00:22:43,116
signal is getting weirder and weirder, it was also, would also explain why we

450
00:22:43,126 --> 00:22:47,076
haven't seen intelligent life anywhere else in the universe and stuff like this.

451
00:22:47,076 --> 00:22:48,116
The Fermi Paradox.

452
00:22:48,116 --> 00:22:48,646
Yeah, yeah.

453
00:22:48,806 --> 00:22:54,276
Well, I will probably not go as far as to think that this, uh, that my ontology, uh,

454
00:22:54,296 --> 00:22:56,656
which is basically a mind first ontology.

455
00:22:56,966 --> 00:23:01,076
We'll change, we'll make predictable, observable changes to the mainstream view.

456
00:23:01,126 --> 00:23:05,156
No, I think they're basically compatible, but I think it's what I, what I see

457
00:23:05,156 --> 00:23:09,016
is basically, uh, some people will say that what we're discussing is

458
00:23:09,016 --> 00:23:12,756
counterintuitive or even they say, um, quantum mechanics is counterintuitive.

459
00:23:13,046 --> 00:23:16,666
I think it's not when you are a child, uh, or when you didn't

460
00:23:17,196 --> 00:23:19,126
study anything, your assumption is.

461
00:23:19,516 --> 00:23:23,696
When you close your eyes, the world outside of you disappears and every

462
00:23:23,696 --> 00:23:27,276
phenomenon is basically a will of somebody, like the sun is, I mean, even

463
00:23:27,276 --> 00:23:30,906
primitive cultures, like everything has a will, everything is some kind of,

464
00:23:31,126 --> 00:23:35,786
so I perceive myself, I want things, I choose things, I perceive things.

465
00:23:36,311 --> 00:23:41,261
So everything else outside of me must be quite like myself to some degree.

466
00:23:41,431 --> 00:23:45,191
So the first assumption is that everything is mindful, everything is

467
00:23:45,191 --> 00:23:47,561
basically free, not deterministic.

468
00:23:47,821 --> 00:23:50,681
Then when, and also everything is probably discrete.

469
00:23:50,711 --> 00:23:53,391
You don't get continuous when you, when you think about that,

470
00:23:53,611 --> 00:23:54,731
you don't get deterministic.

471
00:23:54,811 --> 00:23:59,511
Then you study reality and you focus on some very small subset

472
00:23:59,551 --> 00:24:03,751
of phenomenons that are repeatable and intersubjective and repeatable.

473
00:24:03,921 --> 00:24:08,111
Death phenomenons are not very much, not very many, but they are important because

474
00:24:08,111 --> 00:24:12,571
if you harvest them, you can build tools, machines, and you become more powerful.

475
00:24:12,891 --> 00:24:18,691
So we created a, basically a philosophy during the very modern times, like

476
00:24:18,701 --> 00:24:23,696
after the 17th century, where everything that the child would think is wrong.

477
00:24:23,736 --> 00:24:27,236
And then you grow up and you learn that the world is deterministic,

478
00:24:27,396 --> 00:24:29,246
just atoms bouncing around.

479
00:24:29,476 --> 00:24:31,246
And the world is, there is no free will.

480
00:24:31,436 --> 00:24:31,876
Everything's deterministic.

481
00:24:31,926 --> 00:24:34,046
There is no consciousness, just a delusion.

482
00:24:34,306 --> 00:24:36,316
There is a, and there is continuity.

483
00:24:36,336 --> 00:24:41,956
There is no, there is no discreteness, but then you get to quantum mechanics and you

484
00:24:41,956 --> 00:24:43,836
break down literally all of the things.

485
00:24:44,046 --> 00:24:45,416
So you can react in two ways.

486
00:24:45,651 --> 00:24:49,161
One way is to say, okay, I was right the first time and this,

487
00:24:49,161 --> 00:24:52,671
this emergent AP appearance of determines is just a special case.

488
00:24:52,671 --> 00:24:53,661
Yeah, just an emergent case.

489
00:24:53,931 --> 00:24:59,451
Or the second reaction is I really love, love my mechanics, mechanistic, um,

490
00:24:59,511 --> 00:25:01,761
ontology, metaphysic, and we defend it.

491
00:25:02,041 --> 00:25:03,661
By creating convoluted theory.

492
00:25:03,811 --> 00:25:08,011
So you get like many words and you get like, or super determinism, and

493
00:25:08,011 --> 00:25:13,471
you have to desperately try to keep your 19th century, 18th century

494
00:25:13,561 --> 00:25:18,301
worldview, which is basically broken by actual, actual empirical evidence.

495
00:25:18,421 --> 00:25:19,381
So you have to shoe hor it.

496
00:25:19,381 --> 00:25:23,491
It, this reminds me so much about the arguments made by Hoppa in,

497
00:25:23,521 --> 00:25:27,751
in, uh, uh, economic science and the AAN method, which is one of my

498
00:25:27,751 --> 00:25:30,031
favorite books, uh, where he is.

499
00:25:30,766 --> 00:25:35,446
He points out that what Mises really did was, was, uh, connect the two

500
00:25:35,446 --> 00:25:37,896
worlds, uh, via the axiom of action.

501
00:25:38,366 --> 00:25:42,886
So even if an empiricist would say that we can never say that something is

502
00:25:42,916 --> 00:25:48,116
absolutely true, we can only say that, uh, we can, we can do approximations

503
00:25:48,196 --> 00:25:51,396
and we can get closer to the truth, but never to the actual point of truth.

504
00:25:51,826 --> 00:25:55,536
But that statement in itself is an absolute statement.

505
00:25:55,736 --> 00:25:59,346
So it requires you to have a, an absolute truth, like, which is.

506
00:25:59,556 --> 00:26:03,246
Connected to this from the, everything starts from the individual.

507
00:26:03,516 --> 00:26:07,386
Performative contradiction for anything, which is not, uh, yeah, I agree.

508
00:26:07,576 --> 00:26:13,066
It's if you, if you want, it's also the good old, uh, midwit meme.

509
00:26:13,066 --> 00:26:13,286
Yeah.

510
00:26:14,586 --> 00:26:14,906
Yeah.

511
00:26:14,906 --> 00:26:16,596
You, you start with a simple, so.

512
00:26:16,876 --> 00:26:23,306
The point of the mid width IQ bell curve meme is that the universe

513
00:26:23,416 --> 00:26:25,236
is not really that tricky.

514
00:26:25,486 --> 00:26:28,236
It's kind of, the universe is beautiful, it's rich, it's

515
00:26:28,466 --> 00:26:31,036
complex, but it's kind of truthful.

516
00:26:31,356 --> 00:26:33,086
And when you, when you're simple...

517
00:26:33,556 --> 00:26:37,476
You may not get the nuances, but you kind of get it as a general heuristic.

518
00:26:37,706 --> 00:26:41,186
Then when you become smarter and more pretentious, you start to

519
00:26:41,326 --> 00:26:44,736
lose track and you enter very, very stupid kind of models.

520
00:26:45,016 --> 00:26:49,296
And then when you go really deeper and you get all the nuances, you realize

521
00:26:49,306 --> 00:26:51,126
that you were just right the first time.

522
00:26:51,541 --> 00:26:52,031
Oh, yeah.

523
00:26:52,101 --> 00:26:52,381
Yeah.

524
00:26:52,431 --> 00:26:53,291
It's so fascinating.

525
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Luke, you have anything?

565
00:28:46,660 --> 00:28:46,890
Oh,

566
00:28:46,940 --> 00:28:51,330
first great summary of a now classic talk from, from Riga.

567
00:28:51,330 --> 00:28:55,920
I encourage anyone to, to, who hasn't yet checked it out to go watch that one

568
00:28:57,190 --> 00:28:58,020
because it's

569
00:28:58,620 --> 00:28:59,900
absolutely Absolutely.

570
00:28:59,901 --> 00:29:00,280
Absolutely.

571
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,610
And since we, we don't have a whole ton of time and thanks for squeezing us

572
00:29:03,610 --> 00:29:07,030
in, by the way, uh, can you tell us a little bit about, since we had to get

573
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,420
back there, a little bit about what's going on at Lugano generally these days?

574
00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:11,520
Yeah, sure.

575
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,990
Lugano was an interesting city, has a nice history.

576
00:29:14,990 --> 00:29:17,910
Like they stopped Napoleon troops from invading.

577
00:29:17,910 --> 00:29:20,400
They were the, uh, the, um, uh, the refuge of Europe.

578
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:20,740
It

579
00:29:23,790 --> 00:29:24,720
was famous for that.

580
00:29:25,070 --> 00:29:28,230
It was a nice like Lake City, nothing, nothing big.

581
00:29:28,540 --> 00:29:32,480
Then it became important mostly from, uh, I hope, I mean, the, the major

582
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,050
will not see this, this stuff because it's in English, so I can say it.

583
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,660
Lugano became important because of basically money laundry from Italy.

584
00:29:38,985 --> 00:29:41,935
That was the old point of Ticino financial infrastructure.

585
00:29:41,945 --> 00:29:43,155
And Money Laundry is beautiful.

586
00:29:45,525 --> 00:29:46,515
Money Laundry is beautiful.

587
00:29:46,545 --> 00:29:50,345
So Lugano was beautiful, but, uh, unfortunately that stopped.

588
00:29:50,645 --> 00:29:53,895
Uh, and after, after Petro Tech, that basically stopped.

589
00:29:53,895 --> 00:29:57,455
So now Lugano was searching for a new identity and there is some,

590
00:29:57,455 --> 00:30:01,405
uh, there is some cultural push to go away from the past of financial

591
00:30:01,405 --> 00:30:04,915
privacy because they have been hurt by, by the United States mostly.

592
00:30:05,095 --> 00:30:06,745
So some, some pressure to less.

593
00:30:07,030 --> 00:30:11,200
Forget the past and some, some counter pressure to remember the past, which

594
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,620
is financial privacy and some money.

595
00:30:13,900 --> 00:30:19,100
Swiss was, Switzerland was the last country on earth to abandon gold standard.

596
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,110
So there is, there is something there that is very Bitcoin like and

597
00:30:23,110 --> 00:30:24,720
Lugano was starting to feeling it.

598
00:30:24,970 --> 00:30:27,850
And then some, something, some happy coincidence happened that,

599
00:30:27,910 --> 00:30:31,540
uh, like Tether, we were discussing before, Bitfinex and Tether and

600
00:30:31,540 --> 00:30:34,990
all the companies in that, uh, Family, like a whole bunch, synonym.

601
00:30:35,330 --> 00:30:38,880
They were basically decided to base camp in Lugano for, I don't know,

602
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,540
practical reasons, logistical reasons.

603
00:30:40,900 --> 00:30:44,040
The guys beyond Tatar, as you know, are Italian.

604
00:30:44,060 --> 00:30:47,520
So Switzerland is basically a non retarded version of Italy or

605
00:30:47,540 --> 00:30:48,670
less retarded version of Italy.

606
00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:51,470
You, you, you basically eat almost Italian.

607
00:30:51,530 --> 00:30:54,860
You speak Italian in Ticino, especially, but you are not

608
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:56,100
living in the socialist hell.

609
00:30:56,765 --> 00:30:57,395
That, uh, Italy, Italy is.

610
00:30:57,395 --> 00:31:01,755
So, I mean, it's a good, it's a good, probably it's a good, uh, compromise.

611
00:31:02,075 --> 00:31:08,015
So these two things merge and the city municipality fell in love with Bitcoin

612
00:31:08,565 --> 00:31:10,215
at the beginning, also with crypto.

613
00:31:10,455 --> 00:31:14,395
But then we managed to explain them that, uh, even from a non

614
00:31:14,405 --> 00:31:18,045
ideological standpoint, there are so many crypto cities, crypto island,

615
00:31:18,045 --> 00:31:20,095
crypto nation that already happened.

616
00:31:20,095 --> 00:31:21,385
That was so 2016.

617
00:31:21,815 --> 00:31:25,005
There was like Island of Man, the Malta, Puerto Rico.

618
00:31:25,555 --> 00:31:25,945
Zoo.

619
00:31:26,395 --> 00:31:31,435
So we told Dubai , so Dubai, we told them, if you are crypto, you

620
00:31:31,435 --> 00:31:33,925
are just a very late zoo Canton.

621
00:31:34,285 --> 00:31:36,595
Uh, but zoo already was, I mean, it's already there.

622
00:31:36,805 --> 00:31:40,345
If you're Bitcoin, you're just a second after Salvador worldwide.

623
00:31:40,615 --> 00:31:41,935
It's a different kind of approach.

624
00:31:42,295 --> 00:31:48,025
So we managed to, um, to make the, the initiative more toxic over time.

625
00:31:48,295 --> 00:31:53,475
Uh, last year there were still some very delicate coining going on this.

626
00:31:54,685 --> 00:31:54,805
So

627
00:31:54,805 --> 00:31:55,915
you don't count Tether as a

628
00:31:55,915 --> 00:31:56,515
shit coin then?

629
00:31:56,605 --> 00:31:57,355
No, I don't.

630
00:31:57,355 --> 00:31:59,815
I think tether is, uh, I mean a fart coin maybe.

631
00:31:59,965 --> 00:32:00,625
Uh, it's, yeah.

632
00:32:01,165 --> 00:32:02,755
It's, it's a fiat coin in a way.

633
00:32:02,755 --> 00:32:05,865
It's, it's, it's closer to a cryptocurrency in a way than

634
00:32:05,945 --> 00:32:10,785
a cryptocurrency because it's, it's way you will not lose money.

635
00:32:10,790 --> 00:32:14,915
I mean, it's way more riskier for your portfolio to have a more

636
00:32:14,915 --> 00:32:16,445
error than to have te in a way.

637
00:32:16,655 --> 00:32:16,775
Yeah.

638
00:32:16,805 --> 00:32:17,345
In my opinion.

639
00:32:17,345 --> 00:32:17,585
Yeah.

640
00:32:17,905 --> 00:32:25,340
But anyway, uh, I think that, uh, and even that part Teter itself, is also becoming

641
00:32:25,340 --> 00:32:29,200
more maximalist, that the narrative of Tether is moving to Bitcoin first a

642
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:34,560
lot and is also moving, as I said, to Tether Gold, which is closer to our idea.

643
00:32:34,610 --> 00:32:38,050
So everything is getting, it didn't start from a very maximal point of

644
00:32:38,050 --> 00:32:41,950
view because the practical situation was crypto, but it's evolving

645
00:32:41,950 --> 00:32:43,540
in a very nice direction to see.

646
00:32:43,990 --> 00:32:45,530
And, uh, so what we have now is...

647
00:32:46,205 --> 00:32:48,485
The forum, second year, beautiful conference.

648
00:32:48,485 --> 00:32:51,105
I mean, a lot of people, well organized, very, very great.

649
00:32:51,585 --> 00:32:54,855
And we have the Lugano Summer School that we incorporated into

650
00:32:54,855 --> 00:32:56,995
this PlanB network initiative.

651
00:32:57,295 --> 00:32:59,105
We have, well, many other things.

652
00:32:59,495 --> 00:33:02,985
And there will be this Lugano PlanB Bitcoin Hub.

653
00:33:03,495 --> 00:33:07,915
Which will be a very tall building in the five stores building in the center

654
00:33:07,915 --> 00:33:13,505
of Lugano, bought by Fulgur Venture and Tether, that will be a Bitcoin hub.

655
00:33:13,875 --> 00:33:15,045
And I miss one.

656
00:33:15,085 --> 00:33:20,555
I had one in Milan many years ago, and it was so cool having Bitcoiners all

657
00:33:20,565 --> 00:33:22,755
day and physical places are important.

658
00:33:23,575 --> 00:33:31,165
And like the, the network that these, um, you know, Bitcoin sanctuaries around

659
00:33:31,165 --> 00:33:33,185
the world are creating is just fantastic.

660
00:33:33,205 --> 00:33:37,505
Like how, uh, because this is so connected to El Salvador and

661
00:33:37,505 --> 00:33:39,525
Madeira and all of these, it is,

662
00:33:40,055 --> 00:33:43,525
my plan will be, of course, it's always difficult when you create the

663
00:33:43,635 --> 00:33:47,045
infrastructure and you propose it because anybody will create their own.

664
00:33:47,045 --> 00:33:49,155
So it's, I joked on stage.

665
00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:53,450
That my mission is centralization to a certain degree.

666
00:33:53,450 --> 00:33:53,980
That's true.

667
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,190
I don't want everybody to reinvent the wheel.

668
00:33:56,450 --> 00:34:00,760
So as long as money is decentralized, knowledge is decentralized and

669
00:34:01,070 --> 00:34:02,420
everything we do is open source.

670
00:34:02,430 --> 00:34:04,220
So you can just fork it and do it yourself.

671
00:34:04,670 --> 00:34:05,760
As long as that's true.

672
00:34:06,010 --> 00:34:07,320
I like coordination.

673
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:08,790
I don't like reinventing the wheel.

674
00:34:08,820 --> 00:34:11,030
As you said, the fact that we don't have to trust.

675
00:34:11,350 --> 00:34:13,720
Make us very keen to trust each other inside Bitcoin.

676
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,050
So what I would like to provide with, uh, with the resources that Fulgur and Tater

677
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,840
gave me about this network is to provide a template for this kind of sanctuary

678
00:34:23,050 --> 00:34:25,030
where the main key would be education.

679
00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:30,100
Of course, sanctuaries can, can be useful for many things from escaping

680
00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:34,390
government persecution to, uh, to do business, but the education angle,

681
00:34:34,460 --> 00:34:40,015
like university, universities, campuses is, I think it's very, Easy to sell,

682
00:34:40,165 --> 00:34:44,665
like very, you know, a citadel seems something aggressive, maybe you're going

683
00:34:44,665 --> 00:34:46,175
to hide the terrorists there, right?

684
00:34:46,585 --> 00:34:51,955
A university campus seems, seems very innocent, but it's the same fucking thing.

685
00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:00,270
Decentralization is one of those words that get thrown a lot thrown around and

686
00:35:00,620 --> 00:35:02,500
it's not stopping anytime soon, I think.

687
00:35:02,770 --> 00:35:06,390
But, but the way I see it, it's a decentralization is an unfortunate

688
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,120
means to a way greater, greater end, which is sound global, sound

689
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:10,500
money.

690
00:35:10,950 --> 00:35:11,520
Agreed.

691
00:35:11,770 --> 00:35:14,230
Well, or you could go there.

692
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,090
Like, like, I agree that blockchain, for example, is a necessary evil.

693
00:35:18,310 --> 00:35:21,450
I don't know if I will agree with this decentralization, but

694
00:35:21,450 --> 00:35:22,950
for sure, there is a trade off.

695
00:35:22,990 --> 00:35:23,920
And it's not that.

696
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,570
The, there's a specter and there is no decentralization,

697
00:35:27,570 --> 00:35:28,980
good and centralization bad.

698
00:35:29,340 --> 00:35:34,740
These spectors are basically in a taoist kind of situation where decentralization

699
00:35:34,740 --> 00:35:39,800
is always, uh, very, very anti-fragile, but also very, very inefficient.

700
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,410
Well, centralization is also very efficient, but more fragile.

701
00:35:44,630 --> 00:35:48,950
So based on the level of fragility you mean or you don't mean or you don't want,

702
00:35:49,190 --> 00:35:50,750
you can basically navigate the spectrum.

703
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:51,850
Let me give you an example.

704
00:35:52,130 --> 00:35:55,120
When you go from barter to money.

705
00:35:55,500 --> 00:35:57,580
That's a centralization process.

706
00:35:57,870 --> 00:36:03,620
You have a lot of nodes that are creating a network of good to good exchanges

707
00:36:03,890 --> 00:36:08,960
that will grow as a network power law, basically, when you, when you, so you have

708
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,770
two people, you have one line, you have three people, you have a triangle, you

709
00:36:11,770 --> 00:36:12,910
have four people, you have the diagonal.

710
00:36:12,910 --> 00:36:12,980
Metcalf.

711
00:36:12,981 --> 00:36:15,010
Yeah, Metcalf, Metcalf law.

712
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,600
So you have that, then that's, in the value of the network.

713
00:36:20,410 --> 00:36:23,440
It's the friction in the network that is growing N square.

714
00:36:23,790 --> 00:36:28,500
So what you want is to have a center of the figure where instead of

715
00:36:28,540 --> 00:36:32,140
having all the diagonals, everybody's connected right into the center.

716
00:36:32,140 --> 00:36:33,050
This center is money.

717
00:36:33,340 --> 00:36:35,030
So that's a centralization process.

718
00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:39,700
The reason that's tolerable and good is that it's creating efficiency,

719
00:36:39,990 --> 00:36:45,285
but the robustness of a piece of gold is so high because nobody Uh,

720
00:36:45,305 --> 00:36:49,815
human or that we know of can easily change the atomic numbers of gold,

721
00:36:49,855 --> 00:36:51,415
can easily create gold after nothing.

722
00:36:51,415 --> 00:36:56,755
So you did centralize on something which was very robust against takeover,

723
00:36:57,005 --> 00:36:58,885
which was basically a precious metal.

724
00:36:59,215 --> 00:37:00,905
So it's a good kind of centralization.

725
00:37:01,275 --> 00:37:05,205
Uh, the fiat word is a bad kind of centralization because we centralize

726
00:37:05,205 --> 00:37:08,665
over an entity which is very fragile, very easy to take over.

727
00:37:09,025 --> 00:37:10,955
So we don't have to decentralize everything.

728
00:37:11,255 --> 00:37:12,995
We have to disintegrate something.

729
00:37:13,015 --> 00:37:15,175
And another example that I think is cool.

730
00:37:15,595 --> 00:37:18,285
I am, I research a lot with my wife about homeschooling.

731
00:37:18,405 --> 00:37:19,415
We think it's very cool.

732
00:37:19,415 --> 00:37:21,165
Also unschooling, very, very cool.

733
00:37:21,165 --> 00:37:25,275
But then, uh, we said, okay, but are we going to teach ourself all the time?

734
00:37:25,285 --> 00:37:27,715
Maybe not yet because we have other times to do so.

735
00:37:27,715 --> 00:37:29,445
We may hire some teacher as well.

736
00:37:29,635 --> 00:37:32,495
Maybe we'll, we will do something ourself with some teacher.

737
00:37:32,815 --> 00:37:34,595
But then, I mean, it's very expensive.

738
00:37:34,855 --> 00:37:39,735
Maybe we can, we can do, uh, efficiency with, uh, um, with economies of scale.

739
00:37:40,255 --> 00:37:44,065
If we join another family, but then maybe you don't want them in your home.

740
00:37:44,075 --> 00:37:47,725
Maybe we can just rent a place with where family can jointly

741
00:37:47,725 --> 00:37:50,135
pay for a team of teachers.

742
00:37:50,655 --> 00:37:51,755
Which is schooling.

743
00:37:51,765 --> 00:37:53,325
We are reinventing schooling, right?

744
00:37:53,515 --> 00:37:56,015
So we're, the point is that the current schooling is broken.

745
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:57,600
And we just want to create a better

746
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:57,870
one.

747
00:37:58,020 --> 00:37:58,250
Yeah.

748
00:37:58,250 --> 00:37:58,560
Yeah.

749
00:37:58,630 --> 00:38:02,310
But that's the, I mean, there's no, nothing wrong with schooling in itself.

750
00:38:02,310 --> 00:38:05,810
I mean, it's wonderful to leave your kids for a couple of hours.

751
00:38:05,820 --> 00:38:07,300
So you can get something done.

752
00:38:07,300 --> 00:38:09,640
Like it's, it's not something new either.

753
00:38:09,660 --> 00:38:13,210
Like I, I bet people did this when they were living in caves.

754
00:38:13,210 --> 00:38:14,430
They left the kids in the cave.

755
00:38:14,430 --> 00:38:16,350
They didn't join the family.

756
00:38:16,350 --> 00:38:20,020
People were not like intensive parenthood of modern times when you stay with

757
00:38:20,020 --> 00:38:24,610
your kids alone, insulated from, uh, that didn't exist in the central times.

758
00:38:24,940 --> 00:38:30,240
Uh, the, the grandmas were basically growing up, they were basically So, yeah,

759
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:36,670
in a way, uh, I think that the point, or even again, another example, uh, I have,

760
00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:40,280
I, uh, guns, firearms, uh, firearms.

761
00:38:40,780 --> 00:38:42,420
You want guns to defend yourself.

762
00:38:42,420 --> 00:38:42,810
That's cool.

763
00:38:42,850 --> 00:38:43,460
I love that.

764
00:38:43,470 --> 00:38:47,520
I have them and I want them, but, uh, if you really want to defend

765
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,460
yourself in some, uh, in some kind of high, uh, of huge scale, you will

766
00:38:51,460 --> 00:38:53,540
have to hire guns, not just own guns.

767
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:55,900
And maybe you don't want to create a new company.

768
00:38:55,900 --> 00:38:58,530
You will hire an existing company and they will be specialized.

769
00:38:58,780 --> 00:39:00,920
They will be, they will be re specialization.

770
00:39:01,220 --> 00:39:02,330
So I think the point there is that.

771
00:39:02,985 --> 00:39:04,885
too much centralization.

772
00:39:04,925 --> 00:39:11,255
So depending on a third party, defensive firm, or, uh, educational

773
00:39:11,265 --> 00:39:13,485
firm, uh, in a total way.

774
00:39:13,665 --> 00:39:17,685
So where you have no bargaining power, that's bad because now you're fragile.

775
00:39:18,125 --> 00:39:20,325
Now the firm turns against you and you have nothing.

776
00:39:20,885 --> 00:39:23,675
Try to defend yourself or educate yourself without.

777
00:39:23,940 --> 00:39:27,610
Using the division of labor, that is, it's also bad because

778
00:39:27,610 --> 00:39:28,750
it will be super inefficient.

779
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,130
It will be the man on the hill with a gun, but then as soon as somebody

780
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:34,760
better armed come, you will lose.

781
00:39:35,100 --> 00:39:39,070
So the point is that you have to stay in the, in between the Fiat world.

782
00:39:39,495 --> 00:39:42,035
Went too much on the centralization side.

783
00:39:42,325 --> 00:39:42,905
Absolutely.

784
00:39:43,565 --> 00:39:46,485
Modern individuals, they cannot do anything on their own.

785
00:39:46,635 --> 00:39:50,535
This is wrong, but you don't have to do anything on your own.

786
00:39:50,555 --> 00:39:52,565
Otherwise you get back to be a savage.

787
00:39:52,975 --> 00:39:54,845
Civilization is division of labor.

788
00:39:55,085 --> 00:39:58,805
So it's basically a really a ying yang kind of balance.

789
00:39:58,975 --> 00:39:59,335
I think

790
00:39:59,335 --> 00:40:01,365
we the non aggression principle.

791
00:40:01,425 --> 00:40:02,875
Non aggression principle.

792
00:40:03,415 --> 00:40:03,715
Non

793
00:40:03,945 --> 00:40:06,915
aggression can be dangerous.

794
00:40:08,795 --> 00:40:11,695
Yeah, I think, I think we're going to have to call it a here.

795
00:40:11,695 --> 00:40:13,235
I think this is a perfect ending.

796
00:40:13,235 --> 00:40:15,975
If we go in another rabbit hole, we'll be here for another hour.

797
00:40:15,985 --> 00:40:18,355
So thanks Giacomo, always a pleasure.

798
00:40:18,385 --> 00:40:18,535
My

799
00:40:18,575 --> 00:40:18,945
pleasure.

800
00:40:19,345 --> 00:40:22,255
I hope we can do this like 21 million times more.

801
00:40:22,255 --> 00:40:25,155
If we have the time in our lives, always a pleasure.

802
00:40:25,405 --> 00:40:28,645
Giacomo, thank you for having us here.