Connecting Bitcoiners: Matteo Pellegrini and the Orange Pill App Story - FFS #88

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when it comes to the vision, so when I was building the app, uh,

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you know, you think about it.

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And you kind of dream, what is the final form of this thing, you

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know, if you get everything right.

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And some days I would just go in my car and drive around

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because, you know, you get ideas.

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And I was like, wouldn't it be cool if this app, you drive around

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and this app will show you, Oh, here's all the people in this

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town, they're in Bitcoin or nearby.

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And then you, you got another tab and you see all the meetups and then you click

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another tab and you saw the merchants.

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And as you drive around, it will just refresh and it will show you

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everything that's nearby automatically.

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So that's the final vision of the, of OrangePillApp.

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Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint Show, Okay,

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you very much guys.

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Good to be here.

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Yeah, good to see you, Matteo.

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We see each other, uh, about once a month, uh, usually, because I'm

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an advisor for Orange Pill App.

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And we always have fun on those, in those meetings.

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It's me and Ben Sessions, Natalie Brunel, Daniel Prince, Nico

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Lamanen, and who else is there?

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Well, Brian Lament, Brian Lament, of course, and we have loads of fun

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in those meetings and brainstorm.

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I really appreciate those because they're so different from what I'm used

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to in Fiat land as far as meetings go.

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So, uh, this is way more fun.

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so what is the, you recently released this merchants feature on orange

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pill app, can you tell us a bit

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I'm pausing this, I'm pausing this.

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You skipped right over the thing again, come on.

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44.

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No, no, no, I was thinking doing the merchants thing first and then

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the other thing, but okay, okay, how do you want it then, Luke?

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Well just start with the Orange Pill App and vision and stuff.

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You get to see behind the curtain, Matteo, since we're,

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Okay.

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know.

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Okay.

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I'll start from somewhere.

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So, all right.

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So, uh, uh, Matteo, can you tell us about the, uh, the vision for orange pill app,

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uh, the origins behind the app, how, how the idea came to be and, um, where

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are you going with it in the future?

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Yeah, sure.

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So I'll tell you the story of how I got the idea.

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June, 2021, I went to, uh, Bitcoin, Miami.

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Which was great, I got COVID, almost up in the hospital, but

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besides that, it was a lot of fun.

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And I went to this conference, there was like 10, 20, was crazy.

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And I, and I was trying to make friends, but I, you know, it was

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not very easy to make friends.

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I was like, wow, all this Bitcoin is in the same place.

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And it's basically a networking event.

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And I loved it.

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I ended up meeting some people and then having dinner together.

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And it was great.

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And then I come back to LA, recovered from COVID.

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And then I was like, well, I want to meet more big connoisseurs.

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and it was like, where do I find them?

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You know, so I'm on Twitter all the time.

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Back then, I mean, even now, I'm on Twitter all the time.

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And, uh, you know, on Twitter it's very difficult to know who's nearby.

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So I end up going to a meetup.

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Maybe October of 2021, and you know, you drive an hour because in LA

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everything is one hour away driving.

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I drove to this meetup in a brewery, beautiful place,

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and there was like 10 of us.

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And I kid you not, like maybe three or four were not in Bitcoin at all.

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This is 2021, so everybody's, there's an NFT craze.

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Ethereum is gonna flip Bitcoin.

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So I'm like, Oh, okay.

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So I drove one hour to basically talk to big connors and, you know, it was okay.

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There was some big con, it was great, but it's a little awkward

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because you don't know them.

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You know, it's like, Hey, do you have a Twitter?

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What's the Twitter account?

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All right.

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So on the way back home, I'm looking at all the building that I was living

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in Santa Monica, I would look in all the building in Santa Monica There's

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gotta be more bitcoins around here.

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It's like, I actually went on Google and said, how many

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people live in Santa Monica?

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It's like 400, 000.

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And so if you have even 1%, it's like 4, 000.

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I said, how do I find these bitcoins without me going to a meetup one hour away

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with After that, now you need Bitcoin.

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So I got this idea in my head that was like ruminating.

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And then, beginning of 2022, one of my friends called me out and

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said, Hey, I want to talk to you.

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I have an idea.

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He knows I have a background in technology.

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And so I, so he tells me he's building a dating app for

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people that are very active.

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let's say you're a surfer.

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You want to date somebody that's also a surfer because then you

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already have something in common.

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I go, okay, that's great.

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So as he was telling me this vision of his app, I was like, that's how you do it.

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You know, dating apps already solved that problem of how do you find people

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nearby that have some interest in common?

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Obviously, you know, if you're a man, you want to meet a

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woman or a man, whatever it is.

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And that's how I finally, and that's how the, the, the inspiration for

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Orange Pill App came from, which is like, you use a mobile device.

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the approximate geolocation, and then you filter the people that get inside the

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app, which is why we have the paywall, you know, you have to filter aggressively

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because I had this kind of trauma of going to the meetup and, you know, 40

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percent would not even be saying, I definitely don't want to replicate that.

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And so then, you know, I come out with the paywall idea, which obviously was, I think

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the paywall is like 50 percent of why Orange Pill App is as successful as it is.

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is the paywall, because it does the filtering for me, number one, and number

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two, actually attract a certain kind of people, the people that, the people, and

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I think now I was reflecting the other day of this, because obviously there's

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never been a social network, as far as I know, and I think I would know by

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now, there's never been a social network that started So, I think that's it.

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With the paywall, no free trial, no free, like, everybody pays to

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get in, no exception whatsoever.

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And obviously, you know, it's going parabolic almost.

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And I was, and I'm thinking like, the reason why big coiners like this

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model, I think it's two reasons.

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One, because we are very well aware of what is the difference

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between the signal and the noise.

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Because in, in crypto, it's a lot of noise.

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Ethereum, Solana, N-F-T-I-C-O, so we're like bombarded by noise

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every single day, whether it's on Twitter or in in mainstream media.

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There's a lot of noise around Bitcoin and, and Bitcoin is cryptocurrency and,

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and so there's a desire of Bitcoin is to just like, let me pay to find the

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signal, which obviously in fear world, I don't think this model would ever work.

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And then there's also the, um, the benefit of once I get in, I know

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you're one of us I know you've paid $3 or a hundred dollars.

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If you get, if you get the lifetime and there's an extra level of connection,

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like I know you're in Bitcoin 'cause otherwise you wouldn't be here.

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And I know you're, um, not just in Bitcoin, but you are so much in

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Bitcoin that you're willing to pay.

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To be on an app that is obscure, and so that creates, that unlocks all kinds

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of, uh, opportunities and use cases.

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You know, you probably told you this, Knut, uh, there was an NBA guy in the

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app, which ended up being an investor, and he would fly out to all over the

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country to play basketball, and the moment he land, take the app, see what's

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nearby, invite them to the game for free.

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Free tickets, courtside, NBA, after the game.

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He would spend like an hour with them to talk about Bitcoin,

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take pictures on the court.

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And it's like, so I talked to the guys, like, you know, people think

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it's a scam because whoever get invited by an NBA player to an NBA game for

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free, like, you know, and then it was like, yes, no, I know some people have

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told me like, is this true or not?

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Anyway.

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And then he told me, look, I have hundreds of thousands of followers.

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The guy won a championship with LeBron.

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I have hundreds of thousands of followers on Twitter and Instagram say, if I post

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who wants a free ticket for this game.

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I don't know who's coming, I don't know if people are even nearby.

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So, through this technology and through the filter on the paywall, it was

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able to get people and then, you know, you pay 3, the next thing you know,

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you're hanging out with an NBA player.

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And so, so the paywall, yeah, the paywall is definitely, uh, at

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least 50 percent of the success of Orange Pill Up, if not more.

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that's, yeah, that's the origin story of Orange Pill Up.

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Now, when it comes to the vision, so when I was building the app,

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uh, you know, you think about it.

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And you kind of dream, what is the final form of this thing, you

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know, if you get everything right.

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And some days I would just go in my car and drive around

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because, you know, you get ideas.

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And I was like, wouldn't it be cool if this app, you drive around

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and this app will show you, Oh, here's all the people in this

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town, they're in Bitcoin or nearby.

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And then you, you got another tab and you see all the meetups and then you click

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another tab and you saw the merchants.

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And as you drive around, it will just refresh and it will show you

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everything that's nearby automatically.

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So that's the final vision of the, of OrangePillApp.

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And now we just launched Merchant, uh, three days ago.

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Uh, which, you know, it's, it's a big deal because it's, it's

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even harder to find merchants.

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Because, um, and I've been looking now online like, you know, where

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can I find merchants to tell them about Orange, have this feature.

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It's like I was on a website the other night.

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It's called BitPay and it's beautiful website.

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Website.

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It's corporate.

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You can tell they spend a lot of money and they have a list of all the merchants

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that accept because well this is great, now I'm gonna contact them and let

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them know they can also get an account.

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And I kid you not, I contact three of them.

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I found their Twitter account.

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Send them a message.

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Hey guys.

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You accept Bitcoin?

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Three out of three?

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No, we don't accept Bitcoin.

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And I'm like, okay, just so you know, you're on a website that

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says you do, blah, blah, blah.

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And again, we go back to the paywall, the filtering.

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It's, it's, if it's something is free, you get the noise.

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And so, so merchants are live, you know, um, we just launched three days ago.

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We have 41 now.

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funnily enough, this is a very funny thing.

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So I live in North California in a town of 10, 000 people.

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And next to me.

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There's a town, there's 150, 000 people, so it's not that big, but

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it's the biggest town in the area.

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Now, of all the foreign merchants that sign up all over the world, we have one in

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Bulgaria, one in Dubai, one in Australia, two of them are in the town next to me,

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which is like, how is that even possible?

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And you would never have known without the, the feature.

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yeah, there's, yeah, there's no way.

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Yeah, there's no way I would find them.

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So that's, that's kind of the orange pill up.

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Origin story, the vision where we're going.

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I mean, really what we, what we're gonna, what we're trying to do here is

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to create as many offline, in person connection between the corners as

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possible, which in my view are way more powerful than an online connection.

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And also they're obviously way more censorship resistant

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than online connection, right?

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The government can come and shut down Twitter, your email accounts, anything.

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Uh, but if I know there's a guy in the next town that I can buy gas, or if I

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know there's a butcher here and a grocery store here, and we're going to get CBBC,

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maybe we don't, maybe we will, I can just go and, you know, pay in Bitcoin.

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There's now a way to step out of the system completely.

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Outside of fiat, completely, you can get put in bitcoin

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and now you can spend bitcoin.

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You never need to touch fiat.

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So, speaking of CBDCs, like, what's the risk here for the merchants, like,

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imagine the CBDC salesman, some authority, using orange pill app to go and find

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all these merchants and shut them down and point a gun in their face, like,

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Well, um, so we don't, you know, obviously, you know, we

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don't verify, we don't do KYC.

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00:14:59,876 --> 00:15:03,816
There's no, we don't do KYC, you can be anonymous as you like.

233
00:15:04,509 --> 00:15:07,739
the merchants, they tell us they accept Bitcoin.

234
00:15:07,739 --> 00:15:09,719
Obviously, you know, they pay to be on the app.

235
00:15:09,719 --> 00:15:12,699
So, uh, the most likely to accept Bitcoin.

236
00:15:12,749 --> 00:15:17,019
Um, I think the government has many, many, at least in the United States.

237
00:15:17,019 --> 00:15:20,149
I don't know, in the United States, the government, many, many

238
00:15:20,149 --> 00:15:22,629
ways to find out who does what.

239
00:15:22,629 --> 00:15:26,189
Uh, you know, I don't know if you guys watch the documentary

240
00:15:26,189 --> 00:15:28,199
Citizenfour, uh, Snowden.

241
00:15:28,799 --> 00:15:30,629
And I say, it's, yeah.

242
00:15:31,299 --> 00:15:32,569
You should probably watch that show.

243
00:15:33,287 --> 00:15:37,447
there are many, many ways that the government can figure out what

244
00:15:37,447 --> 00:15:38,927
exactly you're doing if you're online.

245
00:15:38,947 --> 00:15:42,057
And that's, again, that's one of the reasons why we want to create offline

246
00:15:42,057 --> 00:15:47,057
connections, because even if, even if the ones here that, so for example,

247
00:15:47,187 --> 00:15:51,567
again, I live in this 10, 000 people village, basically, and I, when I moved

248
00:15:51,567 --> 00:15:52,927
two years ago, I don't know anybody.

249
00:15:53,077 --> 00:15:54,997
I found a friend through Orange Pill Up, right?

250
00:15:55,577 --> 00:15:56,897
And now I have his phone number.

251
00:15:56,897 --> 00:15:58,087
I met his family, met his friends.

252
00:15:58,117 --> 00:15:58,867
We're friends.

253
00:15:59,522 --> 00:16:02,282
He's actually the only friend I have here because I work too much, I never go out.

254
00:16:02,978 --> 00:16:07,888
But now I have this connection with this guy, so I don't, if orange pill gets

255
00:16:07,888 --> 00:16:09,628
shut down for whatever reason, let's say.

256
00:16:10,418 --> 00:16:14,400
I have this connection, so now I am antifragile.

257
00:16:16,540 --> 00:16:20,060
I've experienced that recently down here, like I have a friend there

258
00:16:20,060 --> 00:16:25,120
in a neighboring town here about an hour away, and we, we met in

259
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:30,300
Amsterdam, and we connect via orange pill app all the time down here, and

260
00:16:30,740 --> 00:16:31,380
that's cool.

261
00:16:31,620 --> 00:16:32,940
and have lunches and stuff,

262
00:16:33,894 --> 00:16:34,874
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

263
00:16:34,904 --> 00:16:36,544
It's about creating these connections.

264
00:16:37,126 --> 00:16:42,536
yeah, it's about the real world connections, and like, yeah, uh, it's sort

265
00:16:42,536 --> 00:16:48,646
of a, Redundant question, because this, this problem, as you say, it will, it, it

266
00:16:48,646 --> 00:16:54,536
will happen anywhere, anyway, like, uh, bitcoiners sort of need to be more vocal,

267
00:16:54,566 --> 00:16:59,806
and more, people need to see that we're not trying to be criminal here, we're just

268
00:16:59,836 --> 00:17:05,426
trying to say fuck the banks, fuck the state, they're the criminals, and this is

269
00:17:05,426 --> 00:17:10,906
gonna be a hard pill to swallow For many, but it, but it works, and it works better

270
00:17:11,056 --> 00:17:16,476
than the other systems, so, let's just hope that they don't come with, you know,

271
00:17:17,296 --> 00:17:19,486
horses and boots and batons and stuff.

272
00:17:20,116 --> 00:17:22,906
Yeah, so another thing, but you make a good point.

273
00:17:22,956 --> 00:17:26,546
So, actually, I've thought about this a lot.

274
00:17:27,906 --> 00:17:33,976
because, you know, we had a problem with Google and Orange and a trademark.

275
00:17:34,626 --> 00:17:35,956
A ridiculous problem.

276
00:17:36,046 --> 00:17:39,316
Yeah, the intellectual property laws are so fucked.

277
00:17:39,446 --> 00:17:41,346
Like, there is no intellectual property.

278
00:17:41,366 --> 00:17:44,706
Well, there is one, but all the others are just bullshit.

279
00:17:45,370 --> 00:17:52,665
So, and basically we were Removed from the Google Play Store in the United States

280
00:17:53,295 --> 00:17:55,855
only, thank God, for like two months.

281
00:17:56,470 --> 00:18:01,330
And I, you know, I've, I literally will forget what I'm going when I'm dry.

282
00:18:01,350 --> 00:18:02,650
Cause I was thinking, how do I fix it?

283
00:18:02,780 --> 00:18:04,980
Anyways, eventually I figured out a way.

284
00:18:04,980 --> 00:18:09,410
We're back on the Google play store, but I was thinking like, you know, obviously

285
00:18:09,410 --> 00:18:13,450
Google and Apple can shut me down anytime, you know, they can shut down any app

286
00:18:13,470 --> 00:18:18,020
they want, Twitter, if they want to, you know, so we're building the web app.

287
00:18:18,646 --> 00:18:22,546
we're building a web app, which is going to be a website, which it's

288
00:18:22,566 --> 00:18:23,966
very hard to shut down a website.

289
00:18:24,826 --> 00:18:30,106
Um, and so we're going to have a red, a parallel way to use orange blood,

290
00:18:30,266 --> 00:18:35,706
even if we get to a place where, for whatever reason, Apple shut down every

291
00:18:35,816 --> 00:18:39,586
single Bitcoin app and Google shut down, which I don't think is going to happen.

292
00:18:40,248 --> 00:18:41,618
especially in the United States.

293
00:18:41,618 --> 00:18:47,448
I mean, you know, we have very strong, uh, you know, uh, property rights law.

294
00:18:47,618 --> 00:18:51,888
Um, but you know, at the end of the day, there are probably private companies

295
00:18:51,938 --> 00:18:53,298
that can kind of do whatever they want.

296
00:18:54,153 --> 00:19:02,843
Um, so we're building a web app just to give us all the possible, uh, optionality.

297
00:19:03,233 --> 00:19:07,558
I'm looking forward to the web app a lot, because like, that's, uh That's really

298
00:19:07,558 --> 00:19:12,408
convenient, I love when you have the option to do computer or phone, like,

299
00:19:12,538 --> 00:19:13,118
right.

300
00:19:13,268 --> 00:19:13,718
Yeah.

301
00:19:13,718 --> 00:19:14,028
Yeah.

302
00:19:14,028 --> 00:19:16,348
It just, I just need more developers and more time.

303
00:19:16,358 --> 00:19:16,808
That's all.

304
00:19:17,198 --> 00:19:22,608
yeah, yeah, uh, like, I'd like to unpack some of the first stuff we went into,

305
00:19:22,658 --> 00:19:28,048
uh, because, like, I, there's so much to talk about here, like, uh, you said, uh,

306
00:19:28,068 --> 00:19:32,908
finding, you talked about finding the signal in the noise, and, And the latest

307
00:19:33,008 --> 00:19:38,558
thought I have about that is that Bitcoin is not the signal, but it's the greatest

308
00:19:38,588 --> 00:19:41,368
tool for noise removal ever invented.

309
00:19:41,758 --> 00:19:46,478
So like, that's, if you think about it on a real philosophical plane,

310
00:19:46,548 --> 00:19:48,468
like, that's what Bitcoin does.

311
00:19:48,518 --> 00:19:49,718
It removes noise.

312
00:19:49,768 --> 00:19:52,388
It removes the third party from the transaction.

313
00:19:52,883 --> 00:19:58,813
It allows for people to, to interact directly with one another in ways

314
00:19:58,843 --> 00:20:03,113
that simply weren't possible before Bitcoin and across borders, um,

315
00:20:04,103 --> 00:20:06,433
with whomever, wherever, whenever.

316
00:20:06,748 --> 00:20:07,878
There are no borders.

317
00:20:08,243 --> 00:20:09,073
no, exactly.

318
00:20:09,113 --> 00:20:09,593
And, uh,

319
00:20:09,938 --> 00:20:12,028
There is no concept of borders on the blockchain.

320
00:20:12,098 --> 00:20:13,438
There is no such thing as a border.

321
00:20:13,603 --> 00:20:14,533
no, exactly.

322
00:20:14,553 --> 00:20:19,073
And there's no Satoshi either, but we'll get to that

323
00:20:19,418 --> 00:20:22,648
That is, yeah, that is, I actually found out because of

324
00:20:22,648 --> 00:20:23,878
your interview with Giacomo.

325
00:20:24,763 --> 00:20:25,763
Uh, I had no idea.

326
00:20:25,883 --> 00:20:26,313
Yeah, yeah.

327
00:20:26,423 --> 00:20:32,503
I actually sent, it's funny because I was talking to, uh, I got an orange flop

328
00:20:32,663 --> 00:20:36,553
that was Bitcoin slash, uh, ordinals.

329
00:20:37,073 --> 00:20:42,003
I'm like, do you even, I was like, it was trying to convince me about ordinals.

330
00:20:42,063 --> 00:20:45,123
Like, man, uh, you can't, Satoshi doesn't even exist.

331
00:20:45,123 --> 00:20:47,703
That the, the sats don't even exist.

332
00:20:47,703 --> 00:20:48,323
Like, what do you mean?

333
00:20:48,463 --> 00:20:49,193
That's not true.

334
00:20:49,373 --> 00:20:51,753
I said, look, go listen to this podcast.

335
00:20:51,753 --> 00:20:55,083
So I sent your video to more than one person with the Giacomo.

336
00:20:56,383 --> 00:20:57,033
Nice.

337
00:20:57,483 --> 00:20:57,873
Nice.

338
00:20:57,893 --> 00:20:58,933
Yeah, that's the thing.

339
00:21:00,013 --> 00:21:03,063
The way I see it, and I've been thinking a lot about that, and like,

340
00:21:03,063 --> 00:21:08,433
how to frame that, and how to, like, warn people about these stupid JPEGs.

341
00:21:12,433 --> 00:21:17,253
An efficient way and like a beautiful way to to say it and the way I see it that the

342
00:21:17,253 --> 00:21:20,203
Satoshi like the Satoshi does not exist.

343
00:21:20,233 --> 00:21:25,193
All that exists is UTXO like unspent transaction outputs, right?

344
00:21:25,783 --> 00:21:29,713
And so the Satoshi is not data.

345
00:21:30,178 --> 00:21:31,848
Uh, it's not even information.

346
00:21:32,408 --> 00:21:33,338
It's something else.

347
00:21:33,418 --> 00:21:39,118
It, it only exists in our minds because all it is, is, is keeping a secret and

348
00:21:39,118 --> 00:21:44,988
that keeping the secret is the thing that allows you to change the state

349
00:21:44,998 --> 00:21:47,368
of the network or of the time chain.

350
00:21:48,268 --> 00:21:54,238
Uh, and you get to change it to a certain extent and the extent

351
00:21:54,268 --> 00:21:58,638
to which you get to change it is the amount of Satoshis you have.

352
00:21:59,198 --> 00:22:01,128
But all of that is in your, in your head.

353
00:22:01,843 --> 00:22:02,923
And it's nowhere else.

354
00:22:03,583 --> 00:22:05,983
And I, I find that insanely fascinating.

355
00:22:06,528 --> 00:22:10,928
Somebody made an um, somebody made an analogy.

356
00:22:10,988 --> 00:22:13,178
It's like osh, it's like a meter.

357
00:22:14,188 --> 00:22:16,648
It's just a unit of measure, but it doesn't really exist.

358
00:22:17,513 --> 00:22:18,153
No, exactly.

359
00:22:18,153 --> 00:22:19,313
You can't buy a meter.

360
00:22:20,453 --> 00:22:21,583
You can buy a foot.

361
00:22:22,383 --> 00:22:28,953
It's a convention, yeah, you can buy a full long sandwich, but uh,

362
00:22:29,013 --> 00:22:33,843
it's just a convention amongst humans that this long is one meter,

363
00:22:34,183 --> 00:22:36,663
doesn't mean it exists in nature.

364
00:22:37,198 --> 00:22:37,968
No, exactly.

365
00:22:38,408 --> 00:22:39,428
It's the same idea of sats.

366
00:22:40,041 --> 00:22:43,261
Here, our friend Dominic Frisby would start debating

367
00:22:43,261 --> 00:22:45,001
us on, on the metric system.

368
00:22:45,966 --> 00:22:45,986
Yeah,

369
00:22:46,451 --> 00:22:47,111
But I do.

370
00:22:47,161 --> 00:22:47,581
Yeah.

371
00:22:48,241 --> 00:22:51,041
You're, you're, you're from Italy, so let's not get into that.

372
00:22:52,086 --> 00:22:54,016
I am familiar, as you can tell.

373
00:22:55,039 --> 00:22:59,229
yeah, speaking of the Satoshi and the thing, we had a, uh, a conversation

374
00:22:59,229 --> 00:23:06,009
about, and I saw a tweet of yours about how Satoshi should have, uh, named the

375
00:23:06,009 --> 00:23:08,509
network one thing and the asset another.

376
00:23:09,399 --> 00:23:12,029
So can you, can you explain your, your thinking around that?

377
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:17,427
Right, so I was thinking about, so I'll be honest with you.

378
00:23:18,237 --> 00:23:24,207
Around Christmas time of December, I just got into this mining thing,

379
00:23:24,287 --> 00:23:26,227
the high fees environment problems.

380
00:23:27,407 --> 00:23:28,227
The ordinals.

381
00:23:28,537 --> 00:23:29,487
I'm not a miner.

382
00:23:29,537 --> 00:23:31,277
I've never even seen an ASIC in my life.

383
00:23:31,707 --> 00:23:38,357
Um, so I never really look into, you know, how does money work and the fees and the

384
00:23:38,367 --> 00:23:39,857
block rewards and all that kind of stuff.

385
00:23:39,867 --> 00:23:45,452
So, but anyway, so I see the fees spiking and I start thinking about, well, We

386
00:23:45,452 --> 00:23:51,110
have a problem here that if fees get too high, no, here's what happens.

387
00:23:51,110 --> 00:23:53,100
So somebody, okay, here's, here's the story.

388
00:23:54,030 --> 00:23:58,430
A woman on orange pull up approached me and said, look, we want to

389
00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:04,210
onboard students in this high school and we want to give them, um, a

390
00:24:04,210 --> 00:24:10,950
hardware wallet or card or something cheap with 50 of Bitcoin on it.

391
00:24:12,110 --> 00:24:18,250
I was like, wait a second, you're gonna give them nothing because at that point,

392
00:24:18,260 --> 00:24:20,470
like a transaction was like 30, right?

393
00:24:20,470 --> 00:24:24,290
It was like the top of the field, like, and I had to explain, look, if you give

394
00:24:24,290 --> 00:24:30,500
50 of Bitcoin, these people might never be able to actually use this, spend it

395
00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:32,200
or move it, do nothing with it, right?

396
00:24:32,980 --> 00:24:33,900
So what did you mean?

397
00:24:33,900 --> 00:24:35,390
So I explained the point of fees.

398
00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:38,010
And so then I started thinking, okay.

399
00:24:39,750 --> 00:24:45,196
These are actually, so there is two things in Bitcoin, which unfortunately they're

400
00:24:45,236 --> 00:24:53,897
called Bitcoin, but you have the network and you have the asset and you need both.

401
00:24:54,705 --> 00:24:57,875
together, but they're separate, and they're separate properties.

402
00:24:58,585 --> 00:25:04,109
So the network, the property, so we say Bitcoin is decentralized,

403
00:25:04,299 --> 00:25:07,889
censorship resistant, divisible, portable, durable, etc.

404
00:25:08,379 --> 00:25:13,569
In reality, you have, those properties are actually not, um, so the network has

405
00:25:13,569 --> 00:25:15,239
only three properties, two properties.

406
00:25:16,324 --> 00:25:21,804
The censorship resistance is not on the asset, meaning, again, if I give

407
00:25:21,804 --> 00:25:31,099
you 10, Bitcoin and you can't move it, there's no censorship resistance there.

408
00:25:31,249 --> 00:25:35,804
It's like if I give you a, like if I give you a, um, If I tell you, Hey,

409
00:25:35,824 --> 00:25:39,464
there is a, there is a nugget of gold at the end of the ocean, but it's

410
00:25:39,464 --> 00:25:42,004
yours and it's censorship resistant.

411
00:25:42,024 --> 00:25:45,284
You can, it's, it's, it's a better asset, but go get it.

412
00:25:45,294 --> 00:25:46,074
You can't, right?

413
00:25:47,024 --> 00:25:51,684
So, so, so, just to be clear here, this is about, still about the

414
00:25:51,684 --> 00:25:54,954
fees, so you're calling the fees a form of censorship in a way.

415
00:25:55,884 --> 00:25:56,484
No, no, no, no.

416
00:25:56,484 --> 00:25:57,464
I'm just looking for now.

417
00:25:57,464 --> 00:25:59,374
I'm talking about the property of the network.

418
00:25:59,929 --> 00:26:00,319
Okay,

419
00:26:00,404 --> 00:26:05,624
The censorship resistant is provided by the network, which

420
00:26:05,624 --> 00:26:06,874
is the nodes and the miners.

421
00:26:07,454 --> 00:26:09,054
It is not the asset itself.

422
00:26:10,174 --> 00:26:13,584
Like, I can give you the, forget about fees for now, right?

423
00:26:13,644 --> 00:26:21,284
So, if I give you Bitcoin and you lose your key, you can't move it anymore.

424
00:26:22,644 --> 00:26:27,934
So there's nothing to do with the fees, but the Bitcoin is still divisible.

425
00:26:28,004 --> 00:26:30,264
It's still portable and it's still durable.

426
00:26:30,474 --> 00:26:32,484
The Bitcoin is going to be there forever, even if you don't have the key.

427
00:26:32,634 --> 00:26:34,544
So it's still, you still have those properties.

428
00:26:35,384 --> 00:26:40,064
But unless you can access the network, you will not be able to use the

429
00:26:40,064 --> 00:26:44,924
network properties which are censorship resistant and decentralization.

430
00:26:46,174 --> 00:26:49,114
These are network, these are properties of the network.

431
00:26:50,434 --> 00:26:55,894
Now, and then you have property of the asset itself, which is divisible,

432
00:26:56,274 --> 00:27:01,004
uh, portable, fungible, uh, you know, all the money properties that, you

433
00:27:01,004 --> 00:27:05,794
know, we all Now, these two things, in order to interact with each

434
00:27:05,794 --> 00:27:09,110
other, the mechanism is the fees.

435
00:27:10,366 --> 00:27:13,606
So you have the asset and you wanna send it from me to note.

436
00:27:14,473 --> 00:27:20,103
I have to pay the fees so I can access the network and, and, and benefit

437
00:27:20,103 --> 00:27:24,283
from the network properties, which are decentralization is not really a benefit.

438
00:27:24,283 --> 00:27:28,523
Decentralization because nobody really cares about decentralization per se.

439
00:27:29,163 --> 00:27:33,493
It's that decentralization enable censorship resistant, but the

440
00:27:33,793 --> 00:27:34,933
industry is not even a problem.

441
00:27:35,233 --> 00:27:36,223
It is not even a property.

442
00:27:37,048 --> 00:27:40,875
now it's a, it's a means to a greater end, an unfortunate,

443
00:27:40,925 --> 00:27:42,955
unfortunate means to a greater end.

444
00:27:43,630 --> 00:27:44,660
Right, exactly.

445
00:27:45,620 --> 00:27:52,560
And so now, and this I think is the reason why people, some people think, because

446
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,020
we say, uh, Bitcoin is for enemies.

447
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,640
So that's what I got into this, uh, thinking about.

448
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,220
What does that actually mean?

449
00:28:00,220 --> 00:28:01,030
Bitcoin is for enemies.

450
00:28:02,035 --> 00:28:08,005
And then I figured out, okay, the asset is for animals, meaning you can, you can

451
00:28:08,005 --> 00:28:09,905
be the most horrible person on earth.

452
00:28:10,965 --> 00:28:16,275
Nobody should be able to, uh, stop you from using Bitcoin, the asset, meaning

453
00:28:16,275 --> 00:28:22,405
you want to send Bitcoin from North Korea to Iran, build a nuclear bomb, whatever.

454
00:28:23,035 --> 00:28:28,255
Okay, you, you, you should be able to, uh, move the asset as you please.

455
00:28:28,885 --> 00:28:31,005
The network is, is not for enemies.

456
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,950
In fact, if you think the network is for enemies, you're going to lose

457
00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:40,970
everything else, as we are seeing now with, uh, you know, with the fees.

458
00:28:42,450 --> 00:28:46,900
Um, and so now once we understand that there is the network and the asset and the

459
00:28:46,910 --> 00:28:52,210
distinct properties and you need one to access the other and the other to access

460
00:28:52,780 --> 00:28:58,860
the other and the mechanism to access these two, uh, elements is the fees.

461
00:28:59,470 --> 00:29:05,852
Now we can talk about the fees are in a way, definitely a way to

462
00:29:05,852 --> 00:29:08,122
censor the, to censor the Bitcoin.

463
00:29:08,942 --> 00:29:11,720
You know, um, if I'm a state actor, for example, the United

464
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,272
States has 200, 000 Bitcoin today.

465
00:29:15,092 --> 00:29:19,012
Forget about the ETF, which, you know, technically, you know, you can, you can

466
00:29:19,012 --> 00:29:21,032
count them as government property, right?

467
00:29:22,654 --> 00:29:24,954
So you can just imagine if the U.

468
00:29:24,954 --> 00:29:25,154
S.

469
00:29:25,684 --> 00:29:30,654
could say, okay, from now on This 200, 000 Bitcoin, we're going to make sure

470
00:29:30,694 --> 00:29:33,744
every single block is full, and we're going to pay the possible highest

471
00:29:33,824 --> 00:29:39,574
fees so that Knut and Luke and Matteo and all the people that have maybe

472
00:29:39,574 --> 00:29:43,274
one or two or three, whatever, it's impossible for us to use the network.

473
00:29:45,234 --> 00:29:47,764
And there is this, you can say, well, but you have Lightning Network.

474
00:29:47,844 --> 00:29:49,234
Okay, but how do you open a channel?

475
00:29:50,154 --> 00:29:54,014
How do you go from on chain to the second layer?

476
00:29:54,024 --> 00:29:56,234
You still need to make a transaction on the on chain.

477
00:29:57,144 --> 00:30:00,484
so that's, yeah, that's, that's kind of my insights about you have the

478
00:30:00,484 --> 00:30:04,594
network, which is not for enemies and needs to be protected at all

479
00:30:04,624 --> 00:30:08,784
costs, because without the network, the asset doesn't do anything.

480
00:30:09,234 --> 00:30:13,164
If you can't use, if you can access the network, it doesn't matter how

481
00:30:13,164 --> 00:30:15,454
many bitcoins you have, where you keep them, et cetera, et cetera.

482
00:30:16,212 --> 00:30:16,862
Yeah, yeah.

483
00:30:17,152 --> 00:30:19,822
I have a ton of thoughts about this, of course.

484
00:30:20,502 --> 00:30:27,152
First of all, the, the, the dichotomy is, it is made up, but it does make

485
00:30:27,152 --> 00:30:31,952
sense from your point of view, like you're, you're, but, but as, as we

486
00:30:31,952 --> 00:30:35,732
went into briefly before, like the Satoshi doesn't really exist, so it's

487
00:30:35,792 --> 00:30:37,732
just the network and there is no asset.

488
00:30:38,207 --> 00:30:39,547
The asset is in our heads.

489
00:30:40,117 --> 00:30:43,287
So to, to the, to the network, there is no asset.

490
00:30:43,797 --> 00:30:44,857
It's just the network.

491
00:30:45,697 --> 00:30:50,817
Like, uh, and it's a network of human actors acting on incentives

492
00:30:51,457 --> 00:30:55,657
and all the computers involved are merely tools for helping us verify.

493
00:30:55,667 --> 00:31:00,237
Like, that's the thing about running a node, for instance, I think people

494
00:31:00,397 --> 00:31:02,027
misinterpret what that's good for.

495
00:31:02,027 --> 00:31:04,567
And they think that if they run a Raspberry Pi at home, they

496
00:31:04,567 --> 00:31:06,177
help the security of the network.

497
00:31:06,937 --> 00:31:11,907
The thing they help is they're, they help verify their own transactions.

498
00:31:12,202 --> 00:31:16,702
Like, uh, that's what you run a node for so that someone isn't sending you fake

499
00:31:16,932 --> 00:31:20,632
bitcoins, or, uh, in a sense, right?

500
00:31:21,512 --> 00:31:24,152
There's all sorts of advantages of running a node, but,

501
00:31:24,272 --> 00:31:28,222
yeah, yeah, there's all sorts of, but that's the gist of it, and also that's,

502
00:31:28,282 --> 00:31:33,342
that's what, it is a part of the network because that's what enables things like

503
00:31:33,342 --> 00:31:35,372
a user activated soft fork and stuff.

504
00:31:35,372 --> 00:31:39,542
So, so, so it does have an impact, and it is a good thing to do.

505
00:31:40,152 --> 00:31:41,487
Um Yeah.

506
00:31:41,527 --> 00:31:45,897
And, and when you say another thing here, uh, is when you say that the

507
00:31:45,897 --> 00:31:52,117
United States has 200, 000 bitcoins, what that really means is that

508
00:31:52,127 --> 00:31:55,996
some guy has 200, 000 bitcoins.

509
00:31:56,377 --> 00:31:57,867
Some guy possesses them.

510
00:31:58,189 --> 00:32:03,779
the United States may own them on paper, but some guy has the keys.

511
00:32:04,134 --> 00:32:11,184
Like, a custodian, or whatever it is, the custodian is not an institution,

512
00:32:11,284 --> 00:32:18,754
it's a person, and they might be in some sort of multisig solution, but at the

513
00:32:18,754 --> 00:32:23,589
end of the day, it's just a guy, or some guys, Keeping a secret from one another.

514
00:32:23,779 --> 00:32:27,129
So, so that's a, that's another thing to consider.

515
00:32:27,169 --> 00:32:32,859
Like, if this guy is ethical and the United States wanted to do

516
00:32:32,859 --> 00:32:37,779
something akin to what you described as clogging the chain with bullshit.

517
00:32:38,939 --> 00:32:42,449
then that some guy might just take the Bitcoin and fuck off.

518
00:32:42,599 --> 00:32:45,459
Like that's, that's a possible scenario.

519
00:32:45,909 --> 00:32:50,389
So there's, there, I'm just alluding to this because there's, there are

520
00:32:50,589 --> 00:32:55,439
so many things at play here that are not obvious at first glance.

521
00:32:55,589 --> 00:32:56,419
What are your thoughts?

522
00:32:57,465 --> 00:32:58,695
I don't really know how the U.

523
00:32:58,695 --> 00:32:58,875
S.

524
00:32:58,875 --> 00:33:04,665
government, uh, store their Bitcoin, um, if it's on Coinbase or if they have the

525
00:33:04,995 --> 00:33:08,445
wallet in some building in the Pentagon.

526
00:33:08,445 --> 00:33:09,325
I have no idea.

527
00:33:09,415 --> 00:33:10,825
I know the, you know, the U.

528
00:33:10,825 --> 00:33:10,995
S.

529
00:33:10,995 --> 00:33:16,725
government has a Let's call it access to 200, that seems Bitcoin, I think

530
00:33:16,725 --> 00:33:19,465
from Silk Road, uh, if I'm not wrong.

531
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:20,690
Yeah, I know.

532
00:33:20,790 --> 00:33:26,160
And, but there, there is a custodian somewhere and that custodian is always

533
00:33:26,170 --> 00:33:28,320
vulnerable to a 5 wrench attack.

534
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:28,710
Like,

535
00:33:29,805 --> 00:33:30,745
Oh, yeah, yeah.

536
00:33:30,835 --> 00:33:34,855
Um, but you know, the point being, whether, whether it's the US government

537
00:33:34,865 --> 00:33:40,005
or whether it's China or whether it's, uh, Ordinals and who else, who

538
00:33:40,005 --> 00:33:43,545
knows who's finding them, you can definitely, so as far as I can tell,

539
00:33:43,545 --> 00:33:49,583
by the way, I actually then, I was so worried about this thing I wanted to

540
00:33:49,583 --> 00:33:55,703
figure out what is the maximum amount The fees can be on a sustained period.

541
00:33:56,328 --> 00:33:56,938
oh yeah, yeah.

542
00:33:57,393 --> 00:33:59,203
Yeah, we had a conversation about that.

543
00:34:00,263 --> 00:34:03,473
I remember we had a call about that, about, like,

544
00:34:03,473 --> 00:34:05,113
brainstorming about that about a

545
00:34:05,193 --> 00:34:09,623
I think I've actually figured it out because fees are paid

546
00:34:09,623 --> 00:34:11,473
in Bitcoin, not in dollars

547
00:34:12,333 --> 00:34:12,743
Yes.

548
00:34:12,803 --> 00:34:17,313
and Bitcoin as a, as a finite amount, 21 19.

549
00:34:17,363 --> 00:34:21,643
4 million and some are lost, some are in, who knows, but

550
00:34:21,643 --> 00:34:23,163
let's say all are available.

551
00:34:23,941 --> 00:34:27,451
and then you, you, you can work your way down to figure it out.

552
00:34:27,451 --> 00:34:29,481
So as far as like, so here's my prediction.

553
00:34:30,910 --> 00:34:36,030
Fees are never going to stay above 1, 000 sats per Vbyte for a long period

554
00:34:36,030 --> 00:34:41,780
of time, because there is not enough Bitcoin to sustain those amount of fees.

555
00:34:41,890 --> 00:34:43,080
So let me run you through the math.

556
00:34:44,540 --> 00:34:49,910
At 100, 000 sats per Vbyte, if you have one output and one input, the

557
00:34:49,910 --> 00:34:57,549
smallest possible UTXO, as an insertion would cost you 200, 000 sats, okay?

558
00:34:58,379 --> 00:35:01,719
Now, that's the smallest one, so we're being very generous here,

559
00:35:01,759 --> 00:35:03,829
so let's call it 200, 000 sats.

560
00:35:04,509 --> 00:35:06,569
It will cost to make one transaction.

561
00:35:07,369 --> 00:35:13,219
Now, you, uh, so on average, a blockchain, a block has 4, 000 transactions.

562
00:35:14,128 --> 00:35:19,068
So you do 200, 000 sats, by 4, 000, it's 80 Bitcoin.

563
00:35:19,912 --> 00:35:22,682
So imagine in transaction fees.

564
00:35:23,037 --> 00:35:25,017
It's 80 or is that Maybe it's eight.

565
00:35:25,347 --> 00:35:26,007
It's eight or 80.

566
00:35:26,067 --> 00:35:26,517
I don't know.

567
00:35:26,607 --> 00:35:27,957
It's eight something, but like eight.

568
00:35:28,707 --> 00:35:35,807
The bottom line, if you multiply this by, uh, 52,260, which is the

569
00:35:35,807 --> 00:35:42,822
number of blocks per year, you end up with 420,000 Bitcoin paid in fees.

570
00:35:43,627 --> 00:35:51,317
Each year, but now, obviously, at this rate, it would take, um, in

571
00:35:51,357 --> 00:35:54,827
10 years, you will spend 4 million Bitcoin, which they're not even

572
00:35:54,827 --> 00:35:56,397
available to be spent on fees.

573
00:35:57,662 --> 00:36:03,012
And so, and so that's, so that's kind of my 1, 000 sub per bit, but at that

574
00:36:03,012 --> 00:36:07,939
level, there is simply not enough Bitcoin to be, uh, because obviously you have

575
00:36:07,939 --> 00:36:12,489
to think that the only way for fees to be high, if it's the block is full.

576
00:36:13,554 --> 00:36:17,234
If the block is not full, transactions should be one set per bibyte,

577
00:36:17,414 --> 00:36:18,754
because it's that economic behavior.

578
00:36:19,559 --> 00:36:23,789
so the, since you can have to put, you can put 4, 000 transactions, you

579
00:36:23,789 --> 00:36:25,249
can, you can do the limits, right?

580
00:36:26,064 --> 00:36:29,414
so, yeah, so my prediction is, uh, so I came up with this 1, 000 set

581
00:36:29,414 --> 00:36:34,674
per bibyte, you end up costing 400, 000 Bitcoin per year, just in fees,

582
00:36:35,194 --> 00:36:36,604
which is obviously not sustainable.

583
00:36:37,274 --> 00:36:41,564
And if you look back at history, I think we've never been above 1, 000

584
00:36:41,565 --> 00:36:46,314
sats per vbyte, for very few blocks we've been above 1, 000 sats the median

585
00:36:46,314 --> 00:36:50,214
fee, obviously you have always the guy that paid 2B coin by accident.

586
00:36:50,847 --> 00:36:53,277
and so that's, that's my calculation.

587
00:36:53,277 --> 00:36:55,897
So, but now, so now think about this, right?

588
00:36:55,967 --> 00:36:57,857
So here's the problem.

589
00:36:58,227 --> 00:37:02,008
So say we get to 1, 000 sats per vbyte as the new normal.

590
00:37:03,063 --> 00:37:05,433
And making a transaction is 200, 000 sats.

591
00:37:06,843 --> 00:37:11,633
you have UTXO that are 1 million sats, you can only make 5 transactions,

592
00:37:12,113 --> 00:37:13,543
and then it's gone, in fees.

593
00:37:14,555 --> 00:37:17,715
So any UTXO below 1 million is basically dust.

594
00:37:19,282 --> 00:37:23,232
and so one warning, if anybody's listening and doing the DCA 50

595
00:37:23,232 --> 00:37:28,042
a month and transferring 50 out, that's probably not a good idea.

596
00:37:28,132 --> 00:37:31,382
You mined up basically DCA and nothing.

597
00:37:31,967 --> 00:37:35,146
and so now, you know, if people have 10 million, even if 10 million

598
00:37:35,147 --> 00:37:39,647
sats user Excel, which is, you know, it's not bad, uh, 200, 000

599
00:37:39,647 --> 00:37:40,987
transaction fees is 2 percent fees.

600
00:37:42,327 --> 00:37:46,457
And unlike fiat, where you can always make more of it, you can't make more of

601
00:37:46,457 --> 00:37:51,387
Bitcoin, which means at some point you're going to run out of stats because of fees.

602
00:37:53,572 --> 00:38:00,784
And so fees are really, if I look at the blockchain or Bitcoin, at a holistic

603
00:38:00,784 --> 00:38:06,264
level, the weak point, and I know it's, you know, you have the block size wars,

604
00:38:06,354 --> 00:38:10,604
we keep the block size small, which is what causing fees to be high, of course,

605
00:38:11,144 --> 00:38:15,262
because of decentralization of the network, but the fees, as far as I can

606
00:38:15,262 --> 00:38:19,027
tell, It's the way to attack Bitcoin.

607
00:38:19,497 --> 00:38:22,967
The network is through the fees, which obviously we've been seeing

608
00:38:22,967 --> 00:38:28,877
this now for, um, you know, without being conspiracy theorists.

609
00:38:29,627 --> 00:38:36,233
And whoever is paying ordinals to JPEG, you know, if I'm a bad, if I'm a bad actor

610
00:38:36,463 --> 00:38:38,253
and I say, okay, how do I stop Bitcoin?

611
00:38:39,503 --> 00:38:41,673
Plug the blockchain so nobody can use it.

612
00:38:42,963 --> 00:38:45,553
Well, you don't stop it, you just pause it.

613
00:38:45,763 --> 00:38:47,953
And you force people to hodl for a long time.

614
00:38:48,773 --> 00:38:49,143
Uh,

615
00:38:49,313 --> 00:38:51,743
But so you said, let me ask you this.

616
00:38:51,743 --> 00:38:56,336
I know you told me this, but if I want to buy a house in Bitcoin, am I going to

617
00:38:56,336 --> 00:38:58,736
wait six months to make that transaction?

618
00:38:59,861 --> 00:39:00,001
You

619
00:39:00,016 --> 00:39:03,066
well, well, you could make the seller wait six months.

620
00:39:03,201 --> 00:39:05,891
You can write

621
00:39:05,961 --> 00:39:06,981
viable to me.

622
00:39:07,451 --> 00:39:12,441
in the contract that, okay, I'm going to buy this house, but I'm going to, I'm

623
00:39:12,441 --> 00:39:14,211
not going to pay more fees than this.

624
00:39:14,321 --> 00:39:15,371
Are you okay with that?

625
00:39:15,751 --> 00:39:16,831
And you can make a deal like that.

626
00:39:17,081 --> 00:39:22,081
And also, the thousand sats per vbyte, it's an estimation, I get that.

627
00:39:22,421 --> 00:39:28,021
But there are other ways to pay miners than on chain, which is the problem.

628
00:39:28,021 --> 00:39:32,681
And this is also why it's so important for solo miners and

629
00:39:32,681 --> 00:39:34,701
smaller mining things to be.

630
00:39:35,041 --> 00:39:37,851
To actually be miners and not just be hashers.

631
00:39:38,531 --> 00:39:43,791
And the only, about the only way to do that right now is to connect to Ocean.

632
00:39:45,081 --> 00:39:48,381
Ocean has no competitors at the moment, like, the alternative

633
00:39:48,381 --> 00:39:49,671
is solo mining, I guess.

634
00:39:50,221 --> 00:39:53,641
But all the other pools set their own rules and you don't

635
00:39:53,641 --> 00:39:55,101
have a say in the rules.

636
00:39:55,846 --> 00:39:58,556
And then, then you're not a miner, you're a hasher.

637
00:39:58,786 --> 00:39:59,786
You're selling hash

638
00:40:00,121 --> 00:40:01,581
You're an employee, basically.

639
00:40:01,686 --> 00:40:02,756
yeah, exactly.

640
00:40:03,174 --> 00:40:06,474
You know, I've looked, uh, I've looked into this, again,

641
00:40:06,644 --> 00:40:08,404
since kind of Christmas time.

642
00:40:08,534 --> 00:40:14,380
I've been thinking almost every day about mining and, fees and

643
00:40:14,380 --> 00:40:16,920
what are the second and third.

644
00:40:17,370 --> 00:40:22,770
Uh, effects of, you know, we go back to the hash, uh, to the, to the block size

645
00:40:22,860 --> 00:40:29,410
wars and we choose to keep the blocks small to fit, um, you know, about the

646
00:40:29,410 --> 00:40:34,240
blockchain trilemma, of course, I think there is another, there is a dilemma

647
00:40:34,420 --> 00:40:43,219
as well, which is, you can either have decentralization of nodes, or you can

648
00:40:43,229 --> 00:40:49,293
have Low fees, which means as many people as possible can access the network.

649
00:40:49,343 --> 00:40:50,313
You can't have both.

650
00:40:51,243 --> 00:40:55,823
No, and, and, uh, of course you choose decentralization, because if you have

651
00:40:55,823 --> 00:40:58,693
low fees but no decentralization, you're back with fiat again.

652
00:40:59,773 --> 00:41:00,163
Exactly.

653
00:41:00,193 --> 00:41:00,813
It's a dilemma.

654
00:41:00,853 --> 00:41:01,343
You can't.

655
00:41:02,123 --> 00:41:05,673
But at the same time, you know, if you have these additional nodes.

656
00:41:06,598 --> 00:41:10,168
But then the fees are 10, 000 sats per byte, let's say.

657
00:41:10,498 --> 00:41:12,888
Now the transaction is 2 million sats.

658
00:41:13,818 --> 00:41:18,258
So basically you, you, you, only Michael Stiller and Coinbase

659
00:41:18,258 --> 00:41:20,018
and BlackRock can use Bitcoin.

660
00:41:20,018 --> 00:41:25,218
Like whatever you achieve at that point, you know, it's, there's no free lunch.

661
00:41:25,288 --> 00:41:26,108
That's what I'm trying to say.

662
00:41:26,138 --> 00:41:26,328
There's

663
00:41:26,453 --> 00:41:29,783
Yeah, no, no, no, no, and, and, and there is no second breakfast,

664
00:41:29,813 --> 00:41:30,803
speaking of Michael Saylor.

665
00:41:31,193 --> 00:41:31,533
And, uh,

666
00:41:32,208 --> 00:41:32,528
There's no

667
00:41:32,543 --> 00:41:36,573
we'll, we'll, uh, and there's no fucking brunch.

668
00:41:37,073 --> 00:41:38,183
It's a made up word.

669
00:41:38,553 --> 00:41:38,853
Uh,

670
00:41:38,878 --> 00:41:39,678
like Satoshi.

671
00:41:40,018 --> 00:41:41,268
It's still a breakfast.

672
00:41:41,268 --> 00:41:43,338
It's your first meal per day.

673
00:41:43,338 --> 00:41:45,848
Like, you break your fast, it's a fucking breakfast.

674
00:41:46,198 --> 00:41:48,408
Like, um, where was I going with this?

675
00:41:48,408 --> 00:41:50,708
I completely lost my train of thought here.

676
00:41:51,024 --> 00:41:53,534
the dilemma, you know, the, the, the, the no free lunch.

677
00:43:02,452 --> 00:43:05,322
yeah, so, so this is the thing.

678
00:43:05,802 --> 00:43:09,862
Here's another thought nugget for you to chew on when speaking of mining.

679
00:43:10,222 --> 00:43:14,827
You know the theory of how Bitcoiners, Bitcoin Moves the

680
00:43:14,857 --> 00:43:16,387
shelling point of violence.

681
00:43:16,767 --> 00:43:22,347
So the, the basic thing premise is if the asset is in my head, even

682
00:43:22,347 --> 00:43:25,627
if I point a gun to your head, you get nothing if you kill me.

683
00:43:26,257 --> 00:43:30,477
So it disincentivizes violence and coercion.

684
00:43:31,997 --> 00:43:35,837
Here's, here's the caveat, like, is this true for miners though?

685
00:43:36,657 --> 00:43:39,297
Don't miners have an incentive to attack one another?

686
00:43:40,237 --> 00:43:40,977
a miner.

687
00:43:41,131 --> 00:43:41,881
one another.

688
00:43:42,257 --> 00:43:47,447
Yeah, so if there's a hangar with, full of ASICs, and there's another hangar full

689
00:43:47,447 --> 00:43:53,827
of ASICs, I have an incentive to blow up that hangar full, my, my, you know,

690
00:43:54,237 --> 00:43:59,954
I have a double incentive because like, my hash power goes up, and also, his

691
00:43:59,964 --> 00:44:02,044
hash power goes down, so it's a double

692
00:44:02,129 --> 00:44:02,649
Yeah, of

693
00:44:02,774 --> 00:44:03,284
whammy,

694
00:44:04,031 --> 00:44:04,691
yeah, definitely.

695
00:44:04,691 --> 00:44:08,281
I mean, it's mining is a ultra competitive, uh, environment

696
00:44:08,391 --> 00:44:10,471
where it's, it's a zero sum game.

697
00:44:10,521 --> 00:44:12,341
Either I mine the block or you mine the block.

698
00:44:13,081 --> 00:44:17,661
And, and definitely the more hash power I have, the higher the

699
00:44:17,661 --> 00:44:19,101
chance I mine more blocks than you.

700
00:44:19,151 --> 00:44:22,641
And the less hash power you have, the still more the chance.

701
00:44:23,714 --> 00:44:26,944
so here's another thought that I had a couple of months ago.

702
00:44:28,044 --> 00:44:34,405
Then maybe explain why we haven't seen the miners, civil wars, because

703
00:44:34,435 --> 00:44:37,351
Bitcoin is a finite asset, right?

704
00:44:38,211 --> 00:44:43,091
That means, so imagine we live in a Bitcoin world, there's only Bitcoin.

705
00:44:43,451 --> 00:44:44,951
Just imagine that for a second.

706
00:44:46,051 --> 00:44:52,261
Now, what happens is all the productivity of the world has to

707
00:44:52,261 --> 00:44:55,641
fit into this box called 21 million.

708
00:44:55,717 --> 00:44:57,447
everything divided by 21 million.

709
00:44:57,921 --> 00:44:58,551
Exactly.

710
00:44:58,691 --> 00:45:01,521
Now, but wait, I think it gets better than this.

711
00:45:02,548 --> 00:45:09,208
Now, obviously, as, as economic actor, we always want to improve

712
00:45:09,208 --> 00:45:12,328
our lives, which means that's why productivity goes up all the time,

713
00:45:12,338 --> 00:45:15,428
because I want to make my life easier and you want to make your life easier.

714
00:45:15,528 --> 00:45:17,778
So you got to think about how am I going to make this thing that

715
00:45:17,778 --> 00:45:19,808
I'm doing faster or cheaper?

716
00:45:20,568 --> 00:45:23,718
And that's how productivity, uh, and that's how technology

717
00:45:23,728 --> 00:45:24,758
exists and productivity.

718
00:45:24,758 --> 00:45:24,928
So

719
00:45:25,133 --> 00:45:29,693
Yeah, it's, it's even simpler, like, if you practice, you get better,

720
00:45:30,468 --> 00:45:30,888
right.

721
00:45:30,938 --> 00:45:31,348
Yeah,

722
00:45:31,703 --> 00:45:33,323
all prices ought to go down.

723
00:45:33,353 --> 00:45:34,523
It's as simple as that.

724
00:45:34,818 --> 00:45:35,008
Yeah.

725
00:45:35,008 --> 00:45:37,378
It's, it's, it's, yeah, exactly.

726
00:45:37,388 --> 00:45:40,278
So now, but think about this, right?

727
00:45:41,118 --> 00:45:42,488
I mean, I'm in California.

728
00:45:43,028 --> 00:45:45,858
You're in Spain and Luke is in Finland.

729
00:45:47,668 --> 00:45:51,628
In the fiat world, whatever you do in Spain and whatever you

730
00:45:51,628 --> 00:45:55,558
do in Finland, whatever I do in California, we don't benefit from it.

731
00:45:56,311 --> 00:46:01,704
Unless I'm using the product or service that you're working on, right, clearly.

732
00:46:02,507 --> 00:46:07,737
But in a Bitcoin world or in a finite monetary system world, since

733
00:46:07,787 --> 00:46:14,057
all the productivity has to fit in the same box, whenever you increase

734
00:46:14,057 --> 00:46:16,927
your productivity, I gain from it

735
00:46:18,017 --> 00:46:18,417
Yes,

736
00:46:18,915 --> 00:46:25,275
because my, the purchasing power of whatever Bitcoin I have has to go

737
00:46:25,315 --> 00:46:28,575
up to match your extra productivity,

738
00:46:29,185 --> 00:46:29,725
exactly.

739
00:46:30,945 --> 00:46:31,565
which is.

740
00:46:32,355 --> 00:46:34,955
The fiat world is actually the opposite, it's the reverse of that,

741
00:46:35,145 --> 00:46:36,265
because there's always more units.

742
00:46:37,389 --> 00:46:41,409
Well, it has a, it's not the actual, it's not the exact

743
00:46:41,409 --> 00:46:43,069
reverse, it has a bit of that.

744
00:46:43,139 --> 00:46:46,339
I would say it's a, I, I call it the dog on three legs.

745
00:46:46,349 --> 00:46:50,429
It's a handicapped version of Bitcoin, basically, but we do.

746
00:46:52,179 --> 00:46:57,349
Since fiat currencies are exchangeable for one another, there is a certain

747
00:46:57,349 --> 00:47:02,039
synergy, like, you're, but then again, there's the money printer, so the

748
00:47:02,039 --> 00:47:04,849
system itself handicaps itself, like, it

749
00:47:04,989 --> 00:47:11,529
no, exactly is the printing that is the printing that, so when you print, you're

750
00:47:11,539 --> 00:47:17,009
making the box bigger and bigger and bigger to think about the, the amount of

751
00:47:17,019 --> 00:47:22,189
money in circulation is all in a box and you own a percentage of that box, which

752
00:47:22,189 --> 00:47:23,779
is whatever your net worth is in fiat.

753
00:47:26,204 --> 00:47:28,574
in Bitcoin, the box cannot get bigger.

754
00:47:28,744 --> 00:47:32,014
In fact, it actually gets smaller every day because people lost the keys

755
00:47:32,014 --> 00:47:36,924
and, you know, let's just say that box is fixed and you have to stuff

756
00:47:37,044 --> 00:47:38,624
more and more productivity in it.

757
00:47:40,254 --> 00:47:45,694
In the fiat world, they can make the box grow faster than the amount

758
00:47:45,694 --> 00:47:49,124
of productivity that goes into the box, which is why we have inflation.

759
00:47:50,039 --> 00:47:57,209
yeah, I would say you and Luke benefit from my productivity

760
00:47:57,959 --> 00:48:04,739
whenever inflation is slower than the increased productivity of mankind.

761
00:48:05,729 --> 00:48:06,299
Of course,

762
00:48:06,934 --> 00:48:08,744
So that's why I say it can be, yeah.

763
00:48:09,109 --> 00:48:12,129
which is the, yeah, but, which is the whole point, which is how

764
00:48:12,129 --> 00:48:15,779
inflation even, um, um, exists.

765
00:48:15,899 --> 00:48:20,279
It's only if you print more money than the velocity of productivity.

766
00:48:20,379 --> 00:48:24,289
You have the velocity of money printing that has to be higher than the velocity of

767
00:48:24,289 --> 00:48:26,219
productivity, and now you get inflation.

768
00:48:26,941 --> 00:48:29,981
If, if the money printing is lower than the productivity

769
00:48:30,011 --> 00:48:32,031
increase, you get deflation.

770
00:48:32,981 --> 00:48:38,641
This is why, why prices were so stable on the gold standard, because the increased

771
00:48:38,651 --> 00:48:45,981
efficiency in finding new gold was what, yeah, was about the same as the increased

772
00:48:45,981 --> 00:48:47,371
productivity and everything else.

773
00:48:47,751 --> 00:48:50,131
And Bitcoin is a completely different beast.

774
00:48:50,876 --> 00:48:52,636
Because bitcoins won't.

775
00:48:52,766 --> 00:48:54,206
So it's not digital gold.

776
00:48:54,256 --> 00:48:56,546
It's, it's so much better.

777
00:48:56,616 --> 00:48:56,936
Yeah.

778
00:48:57,541 --> 00:49:01,891
but it's even better because when you think about it, people

779
00:49:01,891 --> 00:49:04,611
lose sats, whatever, every day.

780
00:49:05,431 --> 00:49:09,721
So actually it's not even fixed, it's the box itself is shrinking, which

781
00:49:09,721 --> 00:49:13,241
means your percentage of the network increases unless you lose the keys.

782
00:49:15,091 --> 00:49:18,521
And so this process is even faster, but anyway, so back to the miners, right?

783
00:49:18,750 --> 00:49:20,430
Obviously miners get put in Bitcoin.

784
00:49:21,223 --> 00:49:22,133
That's all there is.

785
00:49:23,838 --> 00:49:27,648
And so maybe one of the reasons why they don't go and blow up each other, um,

786
00:49:28,298 --> 00:49:33,328
facilities is because they know that now, of course, the money is a very unique

787
00:49:33,508 --> 00:49:37,658
environment when it comes to Bitcoin, but maybe one of the reasons is because the

788
00:49:37,658 --> 00:49:43,163
amount of Bitcoin that they own increases is a very Whenever somebody makes Bitcoin

789
00:49:43,173 --> 00:49:46,103
better in some way, shape, or form.

790
00:49:46,913 --> 00:49:52,113
But I haven't thought about mining, uh, in terms of violence, to be honest with you.

791
00:49:52,253 --> 00:49:53,693
Uh, that's the first time I've heard that.

792
00:49:54,393 --> 00:49:55,223
But it kind of makes sense,

793
00:49:55,568 --> 00:49:55,948
Yeah.

794
00:49:55,958 --> 00:50:00,608
I, I, I spent a, uh, a bit of time thinking about it and I

795
00:50:00,828 --> 00:50:07,188
think miners do have an incentive to, to keep Bitcoin working, uh,

796
00:50:07,208 --> 00:50:09,228
long term, but they also have,

797
00:50:09,283 --> 00:50:09,793
Bitcoin.

798
00:50:09,953 --> 00:50:15,063
Yeah, but they can also get paid in fiat, and this is why it's so important

799
00:50:15,063 --> 00:50:20,103
for a miner to be an actual miner and not just a hasher for a bigger pool,

800
00:50:20,413 --> 00:50:27,169
because the thing that happens is like, so, the pool participants The hashers,

801
00:50:27,889 --> 00:50:33,069
they, when they see that a pool is getting too large, like it's approaching

802
00:50:33,069 --> 00:50:35,879
50%, then they need to switch pools.

803
00:50:35,959 --> 00:50:39,559
And they usually do that because they're afraid of Bitcoin

804
00:50:39,569 --> 00:50:41,509
being taken over by one pool.

805
00:50:41,989 --> 00:50:45,819
The problem is they don't know the ownership structures of the pools.

806
00:50:46,699 --> 00:50:51,769
So the same entity may own both of the biggest pools, which is what, like,

807
00:50:52,369 --> 00:50:57,599
look, yeah, yeah, may, so, so this, this may or may not be a problem.

808
00:50:58,469 --> 00:51:03,639
If it's true, it's definitely a problem, and we should be, stay vigilant and

809
00:51:03,639 --> 00:51:07,759
do what we can to, to like, protect Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is precious.

810
00:51:08,404 --> 00:51:11,104
The, the experiment cannot be replicated.

811
00:51:11,164 --> 00:51:12,274
We cannot have a Bitcoin 2.

812
00:51:12,314 --> 00:51:13,284
0.

813
00:51:13,704 --> 00:51:14,484
This is it.

814
00:51:14,644 --> 00:51:15,994
Life is not a rehearsal.

815
00:51:16,304 --> 00:51:16,564
Bitcoin

816
00:51:16,574 --> 00:51:17,634
We have one shot at this.

817
00:51:18,204 --> 00:51:18,774
One shot.

818
00:51:19,234 --> 00:51:26,494
So, so it's, it's very important to, uh, if you're a miner to, to, uh, Act morally,

819
00:51:27,304 --> 00:51:32,274
if not for anything else, then for your own survival, your own long term survival,

820
00:51:32,304 --> 00:51:36,884
is entirely dependent on you knowing where you direct that hashing power.

821
00:51:38,294 --> 00:51:42,744
Yeah, the, the, uh, again, I didn't know much about mining until two months

822
00:51:42,744 --> 00:51:47,744
ago, and then I went so fast into the, yeah, miners getting paid out of band

823
00:51:48,484 --> 00:51:49,084
It's a problem.

824
00:51:49,274 --> 00:51:50,604
uh, is definitely a problem.

825
00:51:50,744 --> 00:51:54,924
Uh, I mean, miners, it's actually the pools that get paid out of band.

826
00:51:55,054 --> 00:51:55,504
Um.

827
00:51:56,699 --> 00:51:57,089
It's,

828
00:51:57,124 --> 00:51:58,244
they are the miners.

829
00:51:58,284 --> 00:51:59,244
They are the miners.

830
00:51:59,829 --> 00:52:01,409
that's true, they're the miners.

831
00:52:02,056 --> 00:52:08,684
yeah, no, there's, uh, there's definitely a lot of shenanigans going on then.

832
00:52:09,654 --> 00:52:13,414
If you never look at mining, you have a different view of Bitcoin.

833
00:52:13,504 --> 00:52:16,694
Once you start looking at mining, I think you get more nuanced

834
00:52:17,424 --> 00:52:18,544
and a little bit more realistic.

835
00:52:19,354 --> 00:52:25,254
About, uh, the Bitcoin, the ecosystem, and maybe I shouldn't

836
00:52:25,254 --> 00:52:26,574
have done that, but I have

837
00:52:27,016 --> 00:52:31,946
Well, well, there are, it's not simple though, and I don't think

838
00:52:31,946 --> 00:52:36,316
this JPEG bullshit is some sort of sustainable long term attack.

839
00:52:36,316 --> 00:52:39,796
I just don't, I just don't see that happening.

840
00:52:39,796 --> 00:52:45,176
I think there's There's some risks to it involved and like it might reduce

841
00:52:45,176 --> 00:52:49,516
the functionality of Bitcoin somewhat for a certain amount of time, but I

842
00:52:49,526 --> 00:52:51,246
don't see it as a sustainable thing.

843
00:52:51,606 --> 00:52:57,081
And also, miners getting paid off band, like, Everything

844
00:52:57,111 --> 00:52:58,761
in an economy is connected.

845
00:52:59,001 --> 00:53:01,281
There is no such thing as a circular economy.

846
00:53:01,891 --> 00:53:06,481
Uh, we all Bitcoin transactions are usually you're buying something

847
00:53:06,511 --> 00:53:08,661
that is not another Bitcoin.

848
00:53:08,661 --> 00:53:10,821
You're buying something outside of the chain, right?

849
00:53:10,881 --> 00:53:17,331
So, so, so everyone was always going to be paid in something that wasn't Bitcoin.

850
00:53:17,937 --> 00:53:24,357
the problem here is like that, that the, these mining pools have a, another.

851
00:53:25,272 --> 00:53:30,362
Incentive than to just like provide hash power to make the best monetary

852
00:53:30,362 --> 00:53:32,452
network ever created secure.

853
00:53:32,844 --> 00:53:34,194
uh, and get paid in new Bitcoin.

854
00:53:34,914 --> 00:53:39,254
They also, the thing is that they're not Bitcoiners because they don't

855
00:53:39,254 --> 00:53:41,024
see how precious those Bitcoins are.

856
00:53:41,064 --> 00:53:42,454
They, they are fiat minded.

857
00:53:42,464 --> 00:53:45,144
They want to grab as much cash as they can, as fast as they

858
00:53:45,169 --> 00:53:48,839
absolutely, yeah, there is a lot, uh, you know, now that I've, you know, that

859
00:53:49,636 --> 00:53:53,086
I had this company for almost two years now, I've actually spoke with a lot of

860
00:53:53,086 --> 00:54:00,326
companies in Bitcoin, and I can tell you, there's a lot of Bitcoin companies.

861
00:54:00,446 --> 00:54:02,426
There are no Bitcoin companies.

862
00:54:03,051 --> 00:54:07,901
you talk to some companies because I was trying to build my payment infrastructure.

863
00:54:08,826 --> 00:54:13,216
Uh, for the Bitcoin, uh, for the Bitcoin membership, and I took to some

864
00:54:13,216 --> 00:54:18,556
companies that I was kind of fond of it before I get into, uh, this business,

865
00:54:18,566 --> 00:54:22,496
like, oh, yeah, you have to KYC, like, what do you mean I have to KYC?

866
00:54:22,526 --> 00:54:25,791
What's the, what's the point of doing Bitcoin and KYC?

867
00:54:26,281 --> 00:54:26,981
What is the point?

868
00:54:27,051 --> 00:54:30,281
It's like, it's like going to a vegan restaurant and asking for a steak.

869
00:54:30,681 --> 00:54:36,361
They just go to the steakhouse, but they would just throw, I actually

870
00:54:36,361 --> 00:54:38,541
got angry one time and got the call.

871
00:54:39,441 --> 00:54:41,821
They would just throw KYC like it's nothing.

872
00:54:42,681 --> 00:54:43,951
I said, oh yeah, you just KYC.

873
00:54:44,101 --> 00:54:44,811
That was the problem.

874
00:54:44,851 --> 00:54:45,651
I said, are you serious?

875
00:54:46,871 --> 00:54:53,781
Anyway, so yeah, there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of fiat people in Bitcoin,

876
00:54:53,941 --> 00:54:56,131
more than, than I could ever imagine.

877
00:54:57,006 --> 00:55:00,466
And, uh, you know, don't trust verify.

878
00:55:00,596 --> 00:55:01,336
Let's put it that way.

879
00:55:02,666 --> 00:55:06,016
Well, it's going to take a hard, it's going to take a long time for people

880
00:55:06,016 --> 00:55:08,386
to, to get out of the fiat mindset.

881
00:55:08,406 --> 00:55:12,936
It is, it is a very tricky thing to do because you're programmed

882
00:55:13,446 --> 00:55:15,176
to think that money is one thing.

883
00:55:15,186 --> 00:55:18,426
And now all of a sudden you have to think that this other thing is money.

884
00:55:18,426 --> 00:55:22,176
It's the very, most people can't like get over that threshold.

885
00:55:22,286 --> 00:55:26,306
They think of Bitcoin as something that they deal with in order to get more

886
00:55:26,306 --> 00:55:27,886
dollars and not the other way around.

887
00:55:28,056 --> 00:55:28,306
Yeah.

888
00:55:28,306 --> 00:55:28,666
Yeah.

889
00:55:28,826 --> 00:55:32,916
And, you know, I give you an example, you know, again, orange pull up

890
00:55:33,026 --> 00:55:34,496
is completely paywall, right?

891
00:55:35,086 --> 00:55:36,806
No free trial, no freemium.

892
00:55:38,346 --> 00:55:41,816
And I, which obviously is very unique business model.

893
00:55:42,686 --> 00:55:47,306
And I can tell you that, especially now less because people, you know,

894
00:55:47,496 --> 00:55:50,126
people have learned kind of, but at the beginning it's like, wow, why,

895
00:55:50,646 --> 00:55:53,736
why should I pay for, for, for this?

896
00:55:54,826 --> 00:55:59,316
And when you think about it, this is the most fiat mindset ever.

897
00:56:00,826 --> 00:56:02,716
Why should you pay for somebody else's labor?

898
00:56:03,046 --> 00:56:03,656
Like, are you serious?

899
00:56:03,656 --> 00:56:10,546
Like, like, Bitcoin, you know, actually come out with this kind of

900
00:56:11,396 --> 00:56:14,236
When it comes to business models, you have two kind of business model.

901
00:56:14,236 --> 00:56:18,196
You have the honest business model, which is Hey, do you want this?

902
00:56:19,046 --> 00:56:19,596
Pay for it.

903
00:56:20,206 --> 00:56:20,676
Use it.

904
00:56:21,526 --> 00:56:21,936
Get that.

905
00:56:21,976 --> 00:56:23,646
You know, do you want this steak?

906
00:56:23,656 --> 00:56:24,116
Great.

907
00:56:24,196 --> 00:56:24,476
Here's 20.

908
00:56:25,806 --> 00:56:28,846
And then you have the, so you pay up front, you know what you're getting.

909
00:56:29,236 --> 00:56:30,466
It's transparent.

910
00:56:31,466 --> 00:56:35,986
And then you have the dishonest business model, which is everything is free.

911
00:56:37,006 --> 00:56:37,816
Don't you worry.

912
00:56:38,286 --> 00:56:41,656
We might steal your data and sell it to the biggest advertiser, but

913
00:56:41,656 --> 00:56:43,936
it's, you know, and it's, it's.

914
00:56:44,401 --> 00:56:49,961
It's by definition a dishonest business model because you don't know what you're

915
00:56:50,011 --> 00:56:54,751
paying for, you don't know what, in fact, when you don't pay for something,

916
00:56:55,631 --> 00:57:00,881
you're most likely going to end up paying more in some indirect ways.

917
00:57:03,251 --> 00:57:08,241
And, uh, yeah, the fiat virus is very prevalent, without a doubt.

918
00:57:09,311 --> 00:57:15,761
the saying goes, if it's free, you're the product, and the add on to that

919
00:57:15,781 --> 00:57:22,201
is, if it's publicly funded and quote unquote free, it's not free at all,

920
00:57:22,251 --> 00:57:23,771
but you're still the fucking product.

921
00:57:23,771 --> 00:57:25,001
Yeah,

922
00:57:25,071 --> 00:57:27,671
it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's, that's a trick.

923
00:57:27,671 --> 00:57:30,071
You see, that's a trick of fiat world.

924
00:57:30,491 --> 00:57:35,711
They trick us, especially in Europe, free healthcare,

925
00:57:36,361 --> 00:57:37,521
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

926
00:57:39,101 --> 00:57:44,261
It is not free, number one, because the teacher, they still need to get paid.

927
00:57:44,976 --> 00:57:45,326
Yeah.

928
00:57:46,066 --> 00:57:46,656
And then.

929
00:57:47,166 --> 00:57:50,826
You see, this is a thought that I had many years ago because now I live in the U.

930
00:57:50,826 --> 00:57:53,996
S., but I'm from Europe and from Italy, but I can't tell you how

931
00:57:53,996 --> 00:57:55,626
many I do when I go into people.

932
00:57:55,876 --> 00:57:57,816
Oh, but you guys have to pay for our healthcare.

933
00:57:57,826 --> 00:57:58,696
Isn't that crazy?

934
00:57:58,806 --> 00:58:02,796
It's like, you know, obviously everybody pays for healthcare and I'm not

935
00:58:02,796 --> 00:58:05,196
defending, by the way, the insurance model, but that's a different story.

936
00:58:06,246 --> 00:58:14,126
But if I'm the government and I want you to have more power over you, me giving

937
00:58:14,126 --> 00:58:20,406
you free stuff is how I get you to be more dependent on me and I still charge you.

938
00:58:20,891 --> 00:58:21,231
Yeah.

939
00:58:21,831 --> 00:58:26,661
I still charge you with taxes and inflation, and I, it's the perfect,

940
00:58:27,361 --> 00:58:29,091
it's the perfect robbery, actually.

941
00:58:29,921 --> 00:58:34,611
I give you something that you think is free, I get more power over you,

942
00:58:34,691 --> 00:58:38,361
because now you need me more than before, and I still charge you.

943
00:58:39,771 --> 00:58:43,111
And people will go out and defend me.

944
00:58:43,112 --> 00:58:43,337
It's,

945
00:58:43,667 --> 00:58:44,197
Yeah.

946
00:58:44,987 --> 00:58:45,267
Yeah.

947
00:58:45,547 --> 00:58:46,367
it's perfect.

948
00:58:46,937 --> 00:58:48,277
It's so ridiculous.

949
00:58:48,277 --> 00:58:51,447
There is no second breakfast, as we've been through already.

950
00:58:51,447 --> 00:58:55,887
There is no second breakfast and people, the only reason that they can get away

951
00:58:55,887 --> 00:59:00,887
with calling it free is that the media is state funded or state subsidized.

952
00:59:01,737 --> 00:59:05,057
The media, the education, it's everything.

953
00:59:05,777 --> 00:59:11,167
and like, it's so depressing, like people actually vote for higher taxes.

954
00:59:11,217 --> 00:59:13,017
Like how gullible can you be?

955
00:59:13,682 --> 00:59:14,032
Like.

956
00:59:15,197 --> 00:59:20,127
They, they don't, I mean, they, they don't, they don't, they don't even know.

957
00:59:20,187 --> 00:59:23,817
You know, I, you know, I call this the fish and the water problem.

958
00:59:24,497 --> 00:59:25,497
Have you heard the story?

959
00:59:26,247 --> 00:59:28,857
Two fishes, they bit in the morning, and one goes to the other.

960
00:59:28,857 --> 00:59:29,187
Hey!

961
00:59:29,547 --> 00:59:30,527
How's the water today?

962
00:59:30,977 --> 00:59:33,317
And the other goes, water, what is water?

963
00:59:33,612 --> 00:59:34,422
Yeah, exactly.

964
00:59:35,037 --> 00:59:38,097
When you are in water all of your lives, you don't even

965
00:59:38,107 --> 00:59:41,077
know they can, what is water.

966
00:59:41,814 --> 00:59:43,934
And so people don't even know what is the government.

967
00:59:44,104 --> 00:59:45,414
They just think, Oh yeah, sure.

968
00:59:45,434 --> 00:59:48,374
Education is free because, you know, we pay taxes.

969
00:59:48,474 --> 00:59:51,704
It's, it takes a long time and a lot of time.

970
00:59:51,794 --> 00:59:58,954
It takes a lot of reflection and, and, and study and even the willingness to be

971
00:59:58,984 --> 01:00:00,814
saying, Oh, I've been wrong all my life.

972
01:00:01,999 --> 01:00:06,389
And all the people I know have been wrong, it's kind of hard when you, you know, it

973
01:00:06,389 --> 01:00:12,039
takes some kind of person to say, hold on a second, have you all been wrong here?

974
01:00:12,069 --> 01:00:14,349
Have you all been fool for decades or my life?

975
01:00:14,349 --> 01:00:15,719
You know, it's not easy.

976
01:00:15,939 --> 01:00:19,539
I can understand, you know, I can understand why people don't want,

977
01:00:19,589 --> 01:00:24,779
and also why, as you know, the last thing people want is to be wrong.

978
01:00:25,355 --> 01:00:27,575
And what's that Mark Twain quote?

979
01:00:27,665 --> 01:00:33,315
Like, it's easier to fool a person than it is to convince

980
01:00:33,315 --> 01:00:34,755
him that he has been fooled.

981
01:00:35,505 --> 01:00:40,205
I think there's a lot to that because people don't want to be wrong and

982
01:00:40,215 --> 01:00:45,015
they don't want to, yeah, so it takes courage and self criticism

983
01:00:45,045 --> 01:00:46,765
and those are scarce assets.

984
01:00:48,170 --> 01:00:49,210
The various guys, yes.

985
01:02:05,237 --> 01:02:09,297
rabbit holes and all this, firmly interesting.

986
01:02:09,437 --> 01:02:16,027
From my part, I like the direction you guys have kind of taken it.

987
01:02:16,047 --> 01:02:19,707
But from my part, I just want to pull things back into the

988
01:02:20,757 --> 01:02:23,017
Orange Pill app space of it all.

989
01:02:25,727 --> 01:02:29,867
00:54.

990
01:02:29,937 --> 01:02:32,297
462] year for Orange Pill app?

991
01:02:32,517 --> 01:02:39,347
What are you hoping that the app does and any hints at big things coming up?

992
01:02:42,348 --> 01:02:48,068
Yeah, so 2024, uh, you know, again, 2023 was our first year and, you

993
01:02:48,068 --> 01:02:53,138
know, we had to battle with Google and multi billion dollar public company.

994
01:02:53,138 --> 01:02:57,748
So it was not, you know, it was not exactly a walk in the park.

995
01:02:58,565 --> 01:03:01,725
but, you know, we, you know, it was a great year and, you know, we grow from

996
01:03:01,815 --> 01:03:04,405
zero to almost 9, 000 members now.

997
01:03:06,125 --> 01:03:08,305
So 2024, you know, we just launched merchants.

998
01:03:08,830 --> 01:03:13,360
Uh, which in my mind was the last big piece of the puzzle

999
01:03:13,940 --> 01:03:16,970
that they were, there's the first piece, which is the networking.

1000
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:19,220
So one-on-one I found nearby Labs.

1001
01:03:20,070 --> 01:03:21,090
I contacted them.

1002
01:03:21,095 --> 01:03:24,240
We got to get a beer or because our conference together, whatever.

1003
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:28,030
And then we had the events, which we built last year.

1004
01:03:28,765 --> 01:03:31,820
All the meetups, all the, in fact, I think we're already the

1005
01:03:31,820 --> 01:03:33,830
biggest repository of Bitcoin.

1006
01:03:33,830 --> 01:03:35,540
Only events in the world is orange.

1007
01:03:36,890 --> 01:03:39,470
So we have 300, 400 of them.

1008
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:41,490
And any given day on the app.

1009
01:03:42,510 --> 01:03:44,210
And then the last piece was merchants.

1010
01:03:45,270 --> 01:03:47,320
And, you know, again, just launched.

1011
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:51,620
And now we're going to build the web app, as we mentioned before.

1012
01:03:52,970 --> 01:03:57,710
We're also going to build an event ticketing feature.

1013
01:03:58,270 --> 01:04:01,610
And so you could, you could be selling tickets to your meetups,

1014
01:04:02,170 --> 01:04:05,250
conference, could be selling tickets to their, to the conference.

1015
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:06,330
And this is all.

1016
01:04:07,065 --> 01:04:12,304
In Bitcoin, because my goal is to, my goal is to speed up Bitcoin

1017
01:04:12,304 --> 01:04:14,704
adoption, basically, that's, that's really the goal here.

1018
01:04:15,314 --> 01:04:17,024
How do we speed up Bitcoin adoption?

1019
01:04:17,864 --> 01:04:22,904
And obviously one way is to give more tools to people to find each other,

1020
01:04:23,294 --> 01:04:25,194
uh, do business with each other.

1021
01:04:25,614 --> 01:04:31,644
You know, the ticketing, it's You know what's funny, uh, a story I just heard a

1022
01:04:31,644 --> 01:04:34,504
couple of weeks ago, which blew me away.

1023
01:04:36,104 --> 01:04:39,094
There's this guy that I, that I, you know, I send message

1024
01:04:39,094 --> 01:04:41,724
to as much members as I can.

1025
01:04:42,144 --> 01:04:45,814
And this guy told me, Oh, I don't even have Bitcoin.

1026
01:04:45,944 --> 01:04:47,274
And I'm like, what do you mean you don't have Bitcoin?

1027
01:04:47,274 --> 01:04:48,144
What are you doing here?

1028
01:04:49,014 --> 01:04:51,654
You're paid to be on an app that's for Bitcoin.

1029
01:04:51,984 --> 01:04:52,684
And he told me this.

1030
01:04:53,359 --> 01:04:58,959
Well, I've been hearing about bitcoins for years, but I don't know anybody

1031
01:04:59,729 --> 01:05:02,539
in real life to talk about bitcoin.

1032
01:05:03,129 --> 01:05:08,889
So I used your app to study bitcoin, and now I own bitcoin.

1033
01:05:09,519 --> 01:05:11,189
Which is like, it's completely mind blowing.

1034
01:05:11,739 --> 01:05:15,429
But yes, I wanted to make sure it was not a scam, and I wanted to talk to people

1035
01:05:15,689 --> 01:05:19,509
in person, and I didn't know anybody.

1036
01:05:19,599 --> 01:05:22,979
So I used your app as a no corner, and then I became a bitcorner.

1037
01:05:23,689 --> 01:05:27,679
Which is kind of, you know, which is, yeah, it's something, you know, that's,

1038
01:05:27,929 --> 01:05:32,853
that's You build a technology with one purpose, and then people are going to

1039
01:05:32,853 --> 01:05:36,123
use it in ways that you can never fathom.

1040
01:05:36,823 --> 01:05:40,793
Uh, like this guy is like, cause you know, when I built this app, I took it,

1041
01:05:40,803 --> 01:05:42,553
this is the app for the Bitcoin maxi.

1042
01:05:43,023 --> 01:05:47,113
People that have read all the books and all the podcasts, and they don't

1043
01:05:47,113 --> 01:05:50,283
want to listen to other posts, and they want to go out and actually socialize

1044
01:05:50,283 --> 01:05:55,312
and build maybe a family or friendship or a company or whatever it is.

1045
01:05:56,153 --> 01:06:00,023
And now I see people, and this is, I mean, this is an extreme case.

1046
01:06:00,063 --> 01:06:03,716
The guy doesn't even have Bitcoin, but I've heard of people that they basically

1047
01:06:03,716 --> 01:06:08,626
use orange pill up as a shortcut of education, but you can go and listen to

1048
01:06:08,626 --> 01:06:13,106
all the Knut podcasts and all the Michael Saylor and all the real love and all the

1049
01:06:13,106 --> 01:06:15,626
safety, which that's what I did, right?

1050
01:06:16,711 --> 01:06:21,811
Or, you can go on orange pill app, and then, because they're all Bitcoin

1051
01:06:21,851 --> 01:06:28,191
maxi, and the Bitcoin maxi, they love to teach newbies about Bitcoin.

1052
01:06:28,541 --> 01:06:32,291
So they go, and they, and they find, hey, can you tell me about money?

1053
01:06:32,751 --> 01:06:33,541
And they love it.

1054
01:06:34,206 --> 01:06:39,686
So they use orange pill app as an educational tool to like, because,

1055
01:06:39,686 --> 01:06:45,428
you know, Knut obviously has a vast knowledge, but you can't get to Knut and

1056
01:06:45,428 --> 01:06:46,908
not everybody can get to Knut, right?

1057
01:06:46,988 --> 01:06:51,098
It's very, you know, obviously time is scarce, but there is, there's

1058
01:06:51,138 --> 01:06:54,918
thousands of Knut kind of level big corners around the world that are

1059
01:06:54,998 --> 01:06:58,418
not public, but they have all this knowledge and now you can find them.

1060
01:06:59,488 --> 01:07:02,868
Even if it's online, even if they're not nearby, because you just need

1061
01:07:02,868 --> 01:07:04,338
the information, the knowledge.

1062
01:07:04,848 --> 01:07:11,369
And so there's all this, uh, element of, speeding up the adoption of

1063
01:07:11,609 --> 01:07:15,699
Bitcoin and giving more tools and also making the network more resilient.

1064
01:07:16,109 --> 01:07:21,489
Again, if I know the butcher where I can get my meat, And we get CBDC,

1065
01:07:22,569 --> 01:07:25,569
and the government say, you know, you can't have more than this amount of

1066
01:07:25,579 --> 01:07:28,859
meat per week or per month because climate change, whatever, whatever.

1067
01:07:29,639 --> 01:07:33,089
I don't care, but I need to know where is the butcher.

1068
01:07:33,109 --> 01:07:34,759
I need to have that connection first.

1069
01:07:34,759 --> 01:07:39,939
And so that's, you know, that's one of the goal of the app.

1070
01:07:40,039 --> 01:07:42,254
Create connection so we can be.

1071
01:07:43,134 --> 01:07:45,734
Uh, we can step out of the fiat world.

1072
01:07:46,610 --> 01:07:50,110
Mateo, you've said before that the goal of orange pill app is to

1073
01:07:50,110 --> 01:07:51,560
make orange pill app redundant.

1074
01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:55,870
So, so like you're accelerating, uh, hyperbitcoinization.

1075
01:07:55,910 --> 01:07:58,030
So when, when we're actually all Bitcoiners.

1076
01:07:58,980 --> 01:08:02,120
There's no need for orange pill app because then everyone's the same anyway.

1077
01:08:02,865 --> 01:08:07,075
Yeah, there's, um, there's an argument, there's an argument there.

1078
01:08:07,665 --> 01:08:12,045
Personally, I believe hyperbitcoinization, it's, it's, it's

1079
01:08:12,085 --> 01:08:14,845
not next week or next month or next

1080
01:08:14,930 --> 01:08:17,520
No, no, no, but, but, but it's a fun, uh,

1081
01:08:17,595 --> 01:08:17,905
years.

1082
01:08:18,363 --> 01:08:21,833
yeah, but it's a probably many generations, but it's a fun

1083
01:08:21,863 --> 01:08:24,293
thought experiment, uh, regardless.

1084
01:08:24,683 --> 01:08:28,823
So so I was thinking about that when we talked about, um, on honest

1085
01:08:28,833 --> 01:08:33,483
miners and stuff before, uh, and you know, being bribed outside

1086
01:08:33,493 --> 01:08:34,523
of the chain and everything.

1087
01:08:34,923 --> 01:08:38,953
So, and when you talked about that, no coin or just going on

1088
01:08:38,953 --> 01:08:40,723
orange pill app to find Bitcoiners.

1089
01:08:41,318 --> 01:08:45,798
Like, would you define that person as a Bitcoiner before he had Bitcoin?

1090
01:08:46,878 --> 01:08:47,998
Like, maybe, right?

1091
01:08:48,208 --> 01:08:49,538
Like, what is a Bitcoiner?

1092
01:08:49,538 --> 01:08:55,638
It's a, it's a very strange, abstract term, but I think there's an argument

1093
01:08:55,648 --> 01:09:02,628
to be made that a Bitcoiner is a person that, uh, holds honesty.

1094
01:09:02,853 --> 01:09:07,933
Uh, higher than anything else, in higher regard than any, any other behavior.

1095
01:09:08,013 --> 01:09:12,873
They want, we, we love honesty, like, we want honesty everywhere.

1096
01:09:13,773 --> 01:09:17,293
So that, that, that leads to another question.

1097
01:09:17,733 --> 01:09:22,343
Um, if, if hyperbitcoinization happens and everyone's using Bitcoin.

1098
01:09:23,308 --> 01:09:27,098
Orange pill app is redundant, but isn't Bitcoin itself redundant

1099
01:09:27,108 --> 01:09:28,368
too if everyone's honest?

1100
01:09:29,141 --> 01:09:31,101
Yeah, well, I can tell you this.

1101
01:09:31,221 --> 01:09:31,921
I can tell you this.

1102
01:09:33,436 --> 01:09:39,596
I was talking to an investor last week, and he's in Bitcoin, but

1103
01:09:39,596 --> 01:09:40,856
he's not really in Bitcoin, right?

1104
01:09:41,478 --> 01:09:49,806
And I asked the guy, what is the percentage of people that are pro honesty,

1105
01:09:49,846 --> 01:09:52,406
pro freedom, anti government, anti state?

1106
01:09:53,656 --> 01:09:54,946
would you say is the percentage?

1107
01:09:55,316 --> 01:09:56,086
1%?

1108
01:09:56,086 --> 01:09:56,776
2%?

1109
01:09:56,776 --> 01:09:57,056
3%?

1110
01:09:57,236 --> 01:09:58,646
Like forget about Bitcoin, right?

1111
01:09:59,186 --> 01:10:02,566
If you ask, if you go on the street and say, Hey, do you think the

1112
01:10:02,566 --> 01:10:04,126
government should be bigger or smaller?

1113
01:10:04,166 --> 01:10:07,886
Do you think the government should tell me, uh, what vaccine I need?

1114
01:10:07,886 --> 01:10:11,176
Or, you know, there's definitely a percentage of people in the

1115
01:10:11,176 --> 01:10:12,976
world that don't like that.

1116
01:10:13,916 --> 01:10:17,126
And I told the guy, look, these people are all Bitcoiners,

1117
01:10:17,536 --> 01:10:18,856
even if they don't own Bitcoin.

1118
01:10:19,536 --> 01:10:24,556
They just don't know yet that Bitcoin is the tool to get what they want.

1119
01:10:26,111 --> 01:10:26,491
Yes.

1120
01:10:27,718 --> 01:10:32,408
And you know, so I told the guy, look, it's very reasonable to think that at

1121
01:10:32,518 --> 01:10:38,499
least 1 percent of the world, it's anti government, pro freedom, pro honest.

1122
01:10:38,739 --> 01:10:42,719
It's probably more, but let's just 1%, that's 80 million people.

1123
01:10:44,179 --> 01:10:47,689
Now, Bitcoin Maxi today, or whatever you want to call

1124
01:10:47,709 --> 01:10:49,054
them, I call them Bitcoin Maxi.

1125
01:10:49,714 --> 01:10:53,014
It's probably half a million, maybe 1 million, maybe.

1126
01:10:53,914 --> 01:10:58,904
So, so I sent a tweet actually after this call, I say, okay, so if 1 percent

1127
01:10:58,904 --> 01:11:03,764
of the world is eventually going to be a Bitcoiner and now it's only 1 million,

1128
01:11:05,144 --> 01:11:10,714
that means the price of Bitcoin has to go up 80 times, because we're going

1129
01:11:10,714 --> 01:11:15,304
to go from 1 million Bitcoiners to 80 million Bitcoiners, if you only get 1

1130
01:11:15,304 --> 01:11:18,194
million, sorry, if you only get 1%, right?

1131
01:11:19,003 --> 01:11:22,083
but, uh, but do I think that everybody's going to be honest?

1132
01:11:22,233 --> 01:11:25,403
No, it's, that's not human nature.

1133
01:11:26,243 --> 01:11:28,433
do I think everybody's going to be a big conner?

1134
01:11:28,493 --> 01:11:33,533
No, if I'm honest, there's never going to be a world.

1135
01:11:33,533 --> 01:11:39,003
I mean, if you study enough history, um, you see these over and over again.

1136
01:11:39,183 --> 01:11:44,873
There is always people that want more government, there's always going to be

1137
01:11:44,873 --> 01:11:47,683
people that choose security over freedom.

1138
01:11:48,418 --> 01:11:54,188
That's just in human nature and there's, the minority are

1139
01:11:54,258 --> 01:11:56,238
choosing freedom over security.

1140
01:11:56,758 --> 01:11:56,838
I don't

1141
01:11:56,908 --> 01:11:57,228
Yeah, well,

1142
01:11:57,788 --> 01:11:58,918
a society where,

1143
01:11:59,578 --> 01:12:01,628
perceived security, that's what they're

1144
01:12:01,688 --> 01:12:06,218
yeah, in their mind is security, you know, um, because you can say

1145
01:12:06,528 --> 01:12:08,078
reality is only perceived, right?

1146
01:12:08,108 --> 01:12:09,188
You can say reality

1147
01:12:09,218 --> 01:12:09,868
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1148
01:12:10,668 --> 01:12:12,082
It's what you think is reality.

1149
01:12:12,768 --> 01:12:14,088
Here's another rabbit hole.

1150
01:12:14,703 --> 01:12:20,163
Yeah, there's, there's another Robby Hall, but so, yeah, so there's, in my

1151
01:12:20,163 --> 01:12:26,713
view, look, there's always going to be a need in, because of human nature,

1152
01:12:27,303 --> 01:12:32,163
there's always going to be a need for a tool to find people that are in the

1153
01:12:32,163 --> 01:12:37,583
minority, pro honesty, pro freedom, anti government, no matter what.

1154
01:12:38,023 --> 01:12:41,823
Now, Bitcoin could be 10 million and Bitcoin could be

1155
01:12:42,143 --> 01:12:43,353
the global reserve currency.

1156
01:12:43,933 --> 01:12:45,443
That's not going to change human nature.

1157
01:12:46,503 --> 01:12:47,143
Somewhat.

1158
01:12:48,563 --> 01:12:53,103
It's, if you remove the, if you move the shelling point of violence

1159
01:12:53,103 --> 01:12:54,953
and change the incentives, it's

1160
01:12:55,083 --> 01:12:56,403
It changed the incentive.

1161
01:12:56,463 --> 01:12:57,123
Exactly.

1162
01:12:57,133 --> 01:12:58,453
It doesn't change the human nature.

1163
01:12:58,653 --> 01:12:59,993
You don't change human nature.

1164
01:13:00,603 --> 01:13:01,513
You can change

1165
01:13:01,523 --> 01:13:02,463
do you draw the line?

1166
01:13:03,348 --> 01:13:05,388
You can change the incentive structure.

1167
01:13:06,494 --> 01:13:09,964
No, it's, uh, no, that's why we're in this, I guess.

1168
01:13:10,014 --> 01:13:13,954
Like, we've, we see a, we really do see a brighter future here.

1169
01:13:14,874 --> 01:13:16,144
Yeah, we have a tool now.

1170
01:13:16,154 --> 01:13:19,954
We have a tool for the first time, at least in my lifetime.

1171
01:13:22,474 --> 01:13:27,614
We have a tool to achieve what we always wanted, which is more

1172
01:13:27,614 --> 01:13:34,404
freedom, less surveillance, less scrutiny, less restriction.

1173
01:13:35,190 --> 01:13:38,820
The internet was supposed to be this, but obviously the internet

1174
01:13:38,820 --> 01:13:40,080
has been captured completely.

1175
01:13:40,875 --> 01:13:42,575
Obviously, um,

1176
01:13:42,730 --> 01:13:43,510
completely.

1177
01:13:43,830 --> 01:13:44,040
It's

1178
01:13:44,205 --> 01:13:48,355
well, compared to the original vision, it's pretty much,

1179
01:13:48,802 --> 01:13:53,012
yeah, but it's still better than only having landline phones, you know?

1180
01:13:53,286 --> 01:13:57,076
yeah, but, but, but the internet was the tool that was going to

1181
01:13:57,086 --> 01:13:58,856
liberate humanity from government.

1182
01:13:59,806 --> 01:14:01,516
Oh, we can now find each other.

1183
01:14:01,516 --> 01:14:03,296
We can now communicate with each other.

1184
01:14:03,386 --> 01:14:06,086
And then you have the NSA and then you have Facebook and

1185
01:14:06,086 --> 01:14:08,813
all this big tech and, why?

1186
01:14:08,843 --> 01:14:12,563
And again, and this is one of the reasons why I'm not exactly bullish

1187
01:14:12,563 --> 01:14:15,636
on Nostr is because the internet.

1188
01:14:16,763 --> 01:14:23,246
Did not have economic incentives embedded in the protocol.

1189
01:14:24,746 --> 01:14:28,196
If you remove the economic incentive of Bitcoin, Bitcoin dies tomorrow.

1190
01:14:29,096 --> 01:14:31,336
Literally, there will be no mining.

1191
01:14:31,386 --> 01:14:34,156
There will be no nodes, except some cyber punks.

1192
01:14:35,459 --> 01:14:38,059
I mean, the reason why people get into Bitcoin is number go up.

1193
01:14:38,059 --> 01:14:39,309
I mean, that was my reason.

1194
01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:42,209
I don't know about you guys, but I think 95 percent of

1195
01:14:42,219 --> 01:14:43,259
people would say, okay, yeah.

1196
01:14:43,889 --> 01:14:47,019
And then you, you know, come from the, come from the gains

1197
01:14:47,019 --> 01:14:47,989
and stay for the revolution.

1198
01:14:49,514 --> 01:14:54,954
The internet didn't, because it was free to use and anybody could use it,

1199
01:14:55,584 --> 01:15:00,354
there was no cost to use it, it got captured by big tech and big government.

1200
01:15:01,598 --> 01:15:08,186
and, and that's kind of one of my criticism of Nostr, which I, align in

1201
01:15:08,636 --> 01:15:10,996
to, I align with Nostr on the principles.

1202
01:15:11,486 --> 01:15:15,416
I, I don't, I see three problems with Nostr.

1203
01:15:15,786 --> 01:15:16,746
You want to get into that?

1204
01:15:17,176 --> 01:15:21,136
One is psychological, one is technical, and one is strategic.

1205
01:15:21,136 --> 01:15:21,196
Thank you.

1206
01:15:21,957 --> 01:15:23,847
so the psychological problem is this, right?

1207
01:15:24,737 --> 01:15:26,587
Why do people use social media?

1208
01:15:27,438 --> 01:15:29,618
There's two reasons, as far as I can tell.

1209
01:15:30,368 --> 01:15:34,818
One is to consume content that is not available elsewhere.

1210
01:15:37,108 --> 01:15:40,748
So TikTok, short, addictive videos.

1211
01:15:41,458 --> 01:15:42,548
You can only find them on TikTok.

1212
01:15:42,858 --> 01:15:45,688
Instagram, beautiful women and places.

1213
01:15:45,698 --> 01:15:47,338
It's like all rosy.

1214
01:15:47,908 --> 01:15:49,048
It's on Instagram.

1215
01:15:49,718 --> 01:15:52,308
Twitter used to be, and now it's getting deeper, but it was.

1216
01:15:53,003 --> 01:15:58,183
Uh, short form, either very funny or very intelligent content.

1217
01:15:59,353 --> 01:16:04,663
So reason number one, because if you could find the tweets on, on,

1218
01:16:04,693 --> 01:16:06,883
on CNN, you wouldn't need Twitter.

1219
01:16:06,973 --> 01:16:07,893
You just go on CNN.

1220
01:16:08,343 --> 01:16:09,543
Obviously, CNN doesn't do that.

1221
01:16:09,553 --> 01:16:12,318
That's different kind of content, so that's why you have Twitter.

1222
01:16:13,235 --> 01:16:17,845
So number one is to consume content that is not available elsewhere.

1223
01:16:18,385 --> 01:16:24,165
And number two is to propagate your ideas as far as, as wide as possible.

1224
01:16:25,174 --> 01:16:27,594
So you can have your ideas and you can tell your wife or your

1225
01:16:27,594 --> 01:16:29,924
husband, your friends, your children, which, okay, great.

1226
01:16:29,984 --> 01:16:32,464
It's 10 people, 20, or you can be on Twitter.

1227
01:16:32,464 --> 01:16:34,164
Let's, let's take Twitter, right?

1228
01:16:34,164 --> 01:16:36,984
You can be on Twitter and all of a sudden you have a thousand people

1229
01:16:37,714 --> 01:16:39,274
or 10, 000 or a hundred thousand.

1230
01:16:40,529 --> 01:16:42,469
And that's what social media enables you, right?

1231
01:16:43,539 --> 01:16:45,749
So, one, consume unique content.

1232
01:16:45,989 --> 01:16:50,569
Two, increase your idea propagation reach.

1233
01:16:51,689 --> 01:16:56,699
Now, if you look at Nostr, obviously it fails on both counts.

1234
01:16:58,019 --> 01:17:00,419
Because they, you know, I spend a lot of time on Nostr.

1235
01:17:01,959 --> 01:17:05,149
I would say probably 90 percent of the content that I can find on Nostr.

1236
01:17:05,999 --> 01:17:09,149
It's also on Twitter because everybody is so much on Twitter, right?

1237
01:17:11,309 --> 01:17:16,939
There is no need really to go on Nostr to read Linh Alden's thoughts

1238
01:17:16,969 --> 01:17:19,609
when I can, I'm already on Twitter, I can already see that, right?

1239
01:17:20,339 --> 01:17:24,559
There is nothing unique in terms of content on Nostr.

1240
01:17:25,509 --> 01:17:28,949
And then the reach is maybe 1 millionth of Twitter.

1241
01:17:29,719 --> 01:17:35,714
So obviously there's no need, I mean, the, the There's no value for me to

1242
01:17:35,714 --> 01:17:40,114
send, uh, my thoughts that I want to propagate, because, you know, there's a,

1243
01:17:40,924 --> 01:17:45,444
the meme propagation or it's evolutions and the filtering, you know, the,

1244
01:17:45,484 --> 01:17:47,124
the, the Richard Dawkins move, right?

1245
01:17:47,364 --> 01:17:50,434
You want to propagate your genes and you want to propagate your

1246
01:17:50,444 --> 01:17:51,754
memes, which are your ideas.

1247
01:17:52,424 --> 01:17:53,334
That's what humans do.

1248
01:17:54,874 --> 01:17:58,514
And so now I go on Nostr and I have one millionth of the views

1249
01:17:58,874 --> 01:18:00,154
that I would get on Twitter.

1250
01:18:01,394 --> 01:18:06,174
And also I, there's really nothing unique on Nostr that I cannot find

1251
01:18:06,174 --> 01:18:07,574
elsewhere where I'm already have.

1252
01:18:07,584 --> 01:18:09,044
So that's number, probably number one,

1253
01:18:09,579 --> 01:18:11,599
Well, well, let me interrupt

1254
01:18:11,664 --> 01:18:12,754
a big problem, by the way.

1255
01:18:12,824 --> 01:18:13,404
Yes, please.

1256
01:18:13,404 --> 01:18:13,484
Go

1257
01:18:13,749 --> 01:18:17,289
yeah, a short, a short interruption there, because, uh, I think the

1258
01:18:17,289 --> 01:18:20,659
idea is, uh, it's doubled now.

1259
01:18:21,254 --> 01:18:25,784
But also if Lynn Olden, or anyone else, gets shadowbanned on Twitter,

1260
01:18:27,074 --> 01:18:28,684
you'll still find her on Nostr.

1261
01:18:28,694 --> 01:18:35,924
So it's like a safety net that people have both, because they can also, it's

1262
01:18:35,934 --> 01:18:40,224
also easier to detect if something's wrong with Twitter if you're also on Nostr.

1263
01:18:40,774 --> 01:18:44,744
So that's like the devil's advocate argument for that.

1264
01:18:45,484 --> 01:18:49,214
You know, a good, a good, a good example, a good analogy that I had

1265
01:18:49,214 --> 01:18:51,774
once is like Nostr is like a gun.

1266
01:18:53,284 --> 01:18:56,054
I have a gun in my house because I live in the United States, so I need a gun.

1267
01:18:56,779 --> 01:18:57,639
Because everybody's got a gun.

1268
01:18:57,829 --> 01:18:59,209
So I need to protect myself, okay?

1269
01:18:59,539 --> 01:19:00,999
But I have a gun in my house.

1270
01:19:01,829 --> 01:19:06,259
I don't use it and I don't want to use it, but I definitely want to have it.

1271
01:19:08,129 --> 01:19:13,167
To me, this is the, this is the clearest, uh, definition of Nostr.

1272
01:19:13,217 --> 01:19:14,557
I have a Nostr account.

1273
01:19:14,637 --> 01:19:16,887
I don't want to use it because there is nothing unique there.

1274
01:19:17,357 --> 01:19:21,217
The reach is very small, but I definitely want to have it in case

1275
01:19:21,807 --> 01:19:24,687
something goes wrong with Twitter, which obviously is very unlikely

1276
01:19:24,707 --> 01:19:26,297
because you have the economic incentive.

1277
01:19:26,327 --> 01:19:30,847
But yeah, if Twitter tomorrow gets shut down for whatever reason, or

1278
01:19:30,857 --> 01:19:33,197
Elon Musk loses mind even further.

1279
01:19:33,852 --> 01:19:37,392
And so, you know, I have to go fight yourself, Twitter,

1280
01:19:37,882 --> 01:19:38,962
I'm going to shut it down.

1281
01:19:39,012 --> 01:19:43,682
Yes, Nostr is going to bloom, it's going to be, I'm glad there is a, I'm glad,

1282
01:19:43,762 --> 01:19:48,442
I'm glad I have a gun in my seat and I'm glad there is Nostr as an option, but

1283
01:19:48,442 --> 01:19:50,302
it's not what I want to use every day.

1284
01:19:50,362 --> 01:19:54,972
Because the reason why I'm on social media is, again, unique content and

1285
01:19:55,112 --> 01:19:56,702
propagate my ideas as far as I can.

1286
01:19:57,602 --> 01:20:02,607
Um, so that's the first problem with Nostr, which Which is the problem

1287
01:20:02,607 --> 01:20:07,777
of all the network products, why it's very hard to disrupt network

1288
01:20:07,777 --> 01:20:10,337
products because of this reason.

1289
01:20:10,977 --> 01:20:14,087
But now obviously, you know, I have, I had the same problem when I launched

1290
01:20:14,087 --> 01:20:17,557
Orange Pill Up, which is why we don't have a feed on Orange Pill Up.

1291
01:20:17,937 --> 01:20:19,607
And we're never going to have a feed, no matter how many

1292
01:20:19,607 --> 01:20:20,887
people ask me about the feed.

1293
01:20:22,092 --> 01:20:26,742
Because the last thing I want is to compete with Nostr, let alone Twitter.

1294
01:20:27,842 --> 01:20:31,272
The moment you step in that ring, it's game over.

1295
01:20:31,902 --> 01:20:35,838
Because people are going to think, people, this is how the humans, this

1296
01:20:36,018 --> 01:20:37,608
is how the human brain works, right?

1297
01:20:38,599 --> 01:20:42,889
We do trade off analysis all the time in our brain, subconsciously.

1298
01:20:43,659 --> 01:20:45,544
If I'm talking to you, I'm not talking to Luke.

1299
01:20:45,544 --> 01:20:49,684
And I'm talking to my wife and I'm not going for, it's

1300
01:20:49,694 --> 01:20:51,804
trade off all the way down.

1301
01:20:53,014 --> 01:20:56,224
so the, the humans are really good at doing this in the background.

1302
01:20:56,274 --> 01:20:59,044
So if I'm on Twitter, I'm not on Nostr.

1303
01:20:59,194 --> 01:21:01,054
If I'm Nostr, I'm not on Twitter.

1304
01:21:01,054 --> 01:21:03,354
Now, of course, we already talked about why Twitter is way better.

1305
01:21:03,784 --> 01:21:04,874
Anyway, so that's problem number one.

1306
01:21:04,874 --> 01:21:08,697
Problem number two is the technical aspect of, censorship resistant, which

1307
01:21:09,884 --> 01:21:15,744
Censorship Resistance is just a service that is provided to you by somebody else.

1308
01:21:16,849 --> 01:21:20,899
In the case of Bitcoin, it's a service that is provided to you

1309
01:21:20,909 --> 01:21:22,419
by the miners and the nodes.

1310
01:21:23,809 --> 01:21:29,119
Up paid in big, there's an economic, uh, component because nobody does, not nobody,

1311
01:21:29,119 --> 01:21:30,739
but most people don't do nothing for free.

1312
01:21:31,539 --> 01:21:37,159
Um, and Bitcoin works because there are no free rights.

1313
01:21:38,279 --> 01:21:42,819
Everybody has to pay to access the network no matter who you are.

1314
01:21:43,079 --> 01:21:46,559
The net the network doesn't care if you're Michael still or if you are the

1315
01:21:46,564 --> 01:21:48,509
player with one size, it doesn't matter.

1316
01:21:49,129 --> 01:21:49,954
You pay the access.

1317
01:21:50,969 --> 01:21:57,769
Now that economic value is now used by the people providing you the censorship

1318
01:21:57,769 --> 01:22:03,439
resistance, and now you get to, you pay for the access, you pay for the service.

1319
01:22:03,789 --> 01:22:11,509
So on Nostr, everything is free, which means the relaying clients have to come

1320
01:22:11,509 --> 01:22:13,569
out with their own monetization models.

1321
01:22:14,229 --> 01:22:16,709
Because obviously it costs money to run the nodes.

1322
01:22:16,799 --> 01:22:19,399
It costs money, sorry, it costs money to run a client.

1323
01:22:20,069 --> 01:22:21,439
It costs money to run a relay.

1324
01:22:21,439 --> 01:22:24,029
I actually ran a relay for a couple of months because I actually wanted to

1325
01:22:24,029 --> 01:22:28,268
learn, which is why I know that a lot of clients are dropping off and there's

1326
01:22:28,278 --> 01:22:29,648
a little bit of censorship already.

1327
01:22:30,308 --> 01:22:34,698
Without the economic model, you don't get the security model.

1328
01:22:35,692 --> 01:22:39,602
because the security model costs money and the only way to get it,

1329
01:22:39,662 --> 01:22:44,852
if you have an economic model, which is the genius of Satoshi.

1330
01:22:45,387 --> 01:22:47,867
Figuring out that you need to have a token that has value.

1331
01:22:47,867 --> 01:22:51,547
Well, it didn't have value, but you need to pay the miners in some kind of form.

1332
01:22:52,327 --> 01:22:54,067
And so Nostr doesn't have that.

1333
01:22:54,127 --> 01:22:58,227
And you can say, well, but you can pay for relays or you can pay for clients.

1334
01:22:59,422 --> 01:23:02,012
Yes, you can also pay for a blue check on Twitter.

1335
01:23:02,222 --> 01:23:03,012
Does it mean anything?

1336
01:23:04,082 --> 01:23:06,282
Okay, a couple of questions here.

1337
01:23:06,702 --> 01:23:13,492
Like, first of all, when you say consume content, Another way to express

1338
01:23:13,492 --> 01:23:15,302
that is listening to other people.

1339
01:23:15,572 --> 01:23:18,132
That's all you're doing when you're consuming content.

1340
01:23:18,862 --> 01:23:20,962
Listening or watching a video or, you

1341
01:23:21,117 --> 01:23:26,017
Yeah, but even if you're watching something or you're a video or a picture,

1342
01:23:26,587 --> 01:23:28,957
it's, it's someone communicating something

1343
01:23:29,102 --> 01:23:29,452
Sure.

1344
01:23:29,552 --> 01:23:29,852
Yeah.

1345
01:23:30,757 --> 01:23:36,887
Uh, and that might be the person's intentions are mostly unknown to you.

1346
01:23:36,887 --> 01:23:39,847
They might be selling you something, an idea or a product

1347
01:23:39,907 --> 01:23:41,557
or a service or whatever.

1348
01:23:41,862 --> 01:23:42,162
Yep.

1349
01:23:42,172 --> 01:23:42,992
But you, you,

1350
01:23:43,072 --> 01:23:43,692
an agenda.

1351
01:23:44,139 --> 01:23:48,229
yeah, uh, but you, you do consume content because you know that the

1352
01:23:48,229 --> 01:23:52,129
only way forward in life is to get information into your brain and,

1353
01:23:52,139 --> 01:23:56,779
and, uh, filter it and something will pop out the other end, hopefully.

1354
01:23:56,780 --> 01:23:59,379
So you can give something back.

1355
01:23:59,909 --> 01:24:01,129
come out of it, no matter what.

1356
01:24:01,549 --> 01:24:05,049
We don't have, we don't have a choice of not being influenced.

1357
01:24:05,359 --> 01:24:09,459
There's no such thing as, we're all influenced by, by

1358
01:24:09,469 --> 01:24:11,259
ideas and a lot of stuff.

1359
01:24:11,329 --> 01:24:12,949
Even the weather and everything else.

1360
01:24:13,199 --> 01:24:13,929
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1361
01:24:14,139 --> 01:24:17,699
Well, you can go up in a mountain and be a hermit and, uh, live in a cave

1362
01:24:17,739 --> 01:24:20,009
that's, like, the furthest away from

1363
01:24:20,911 --> 01:24:21,251
You don't,

1364
01:24:21,336 --> 01:24:22,396
of others you can get.

1365
01:24:22,541 --> 01:24:23,051
up there.

1366
01:24:23,396 --> 01:24:24,956
No, probably not.

1367
01:24:25,206 --> 01:24:28,996
So what do you think the, the, the Twitter, one of the first things

1368
01:24:28,996 --> 01:24:33,106
Elon did with Twitter was this, uh, blue check mark thing that all the

1369
01:24:33,106 --> 01:24:36,676
celebrities got pissed at because now they weren't special anymore.

1370
01:24:36,716 --> 01:24:38,616
And it's just 8 please.

1371
01:24:39,236 --> 01:24:42,806
Uh, do you, and it's very similar, it's similar to orange pill apps.

1372
01:24:42,806 --> 01:24:47,236
So, so do you think that was a genius move and do you think it will help free speech?

1373
01:24:47,276 --> 01:24:48,966
Like what, what does it do?

1374
01:24:49,711 --> 01:24:53,161
Yeah, so, yeah, if you look at Elon Musk, right?

1375
01:24:54,666 --> 01:24:57,776
think, I mean, obviously I'm not in his mind, but I, as far as I can tell,

1376
01:24:57,776 --> 01:25:01,586
he really cares about humanity, and he really cares about free speech.

1377
01:25:01,926 --> 01:25:06,256
And, I mean, he's literally been on stage telling the CEO of

1378
01:25:06,316 --> 01:25:09,306
Disney to go fuck himself because he was trying to censorship.

1379
01:25:09,316 --> 01:25:13,536
so epic, I had a tear in my eye and goosebumps, I fucking loved it.

1380
01:25:14,616 --> 01:25:16,086
He has a few money.

1381
01:25:16,466 --> 01:25:18,166
Let's, let's put it that way.

1382
01:25:18,806 --> 01:25:20,846
That's what happened when, when you have a few money.

1383
01:25:21,516 --> 01:25:27,306
So now, so where does censorship come from?

1384
01:25:27,786 --> 01:25:28,276
Think about it.

1385
01:25:28,526 --> 01:25:30,286
Where, where does censorship come from?

1386
01:25:30,336 --> 01:25:32,336
So you have two places that censors come from.

1387
01:25:32,336 --> 01:25:35,396
One is your own morality, right?

1388
01:25:35,686 --> 01:25:38,846
So you say, well, I am, uh, very religious.

1389
01:25:39,536 --> 01:25:42,546
So if you're an atheist on my platform, I'm going to ban you.

1390
01:25:43,056 --> 01:25:45,206
Cause I, I, I don't like your ideas.

1391
01:25:45,286 --> 01:25:46,716
I don't want your ideas to propagate.

1392
01:25:47,116 --> 01:25:48,316
But that's not censorship.

1393
01:25:48,761 --> 01:25:52,921
Well, I'm talking, if you are, uh, Elon Musk operator, if you, if you run a

1394
01:25:52,921 --> 01:25:57,941
social network on a social network, you can, obviously we have our own morality.

1395
01:25:57,951 --> 01:26:00,601
You can say, well, I don't like these people, so I'm going to

1396
01:26:00,601 --> 01:26:02,131
block access to my platform.

1397
01:26:02,531 --> 01:26:03,741
So I censored them.

1398
01:26:04,071 --> 01:26:06,151
Now, I know you can say it's my platform.

1399
01:26:06,151 --> 01:26:06,881
I do whatever I want.

1400
01:26:06,891 --> 01:26:09,251
But if you look at the example of Twitter, right?

1401
01:26:10,176 --> 01:26:10,886
Yeah, yeah.

1402
01:26:11,236 --> 01:26:11,706
But if

1403
01:26:11,911 --> 01:26:15,331
And before, before Elon Musk, I mean, that was obvious, like all

1404
01:26:15,341 --> 01:26:18,511
the people that got banned because they say women cannot be men.

1405
01:26:19,721 --> 01:26:22,021
That was completely ideological, right?

1406
01:26:22,821 --> 01:26:25,848
So, censorship comes from two places.

1407
01:26:26,388 --> 01:26:32,358
Your own morality, or whoever is pulling the string morality, and advertisers.

1408
01:26:33,358 --> 01:26:33,928
That's it.

1409
01:26:34,488 --> 01:26:35,948
There's no other place, or the government.

1410
01:26:36,793 --> 01:26:40,683
government is the biggest, biggest, uh, sinner here, I think.

1411
01:26:41,608 --> 01:26:43,888
Yeah, so the government obviously, as we know now, the government

1412
01:26:43,888 --> 01:26:47,578
was telling Twitter, ban this guy, or de plast him, okay?

1413
01:26:47,753 --> 01:26:52,603
Well, okay, these are all interconnected, because like, the, uh, the more fiat,

1414
01:26:52,603 --> 01:26:57,553
the fiat monetary experiment runs, the more important it becomes to be, to

1415
01:26:57,553 --> 01:26:59,793
be, uh, to be politically connected.

1416
01:27:00,858 --> 01:27:02,268
And Virtue Signal that,

1417
01:27:02,563 --> 01:27:04,593
to appease the money printers.

1418
01:27:04,958 --> 01:27:09,308
yes, instead of actually providing value to your fellow man.

1419
01:27:09,668 --> 01:27:12,698
So, so, like, that's, that's clown world.

1420
01:27:12,738 --> 01:27:13,568
That's what it is.

1421
01:27:13,608 --> 01:27:17,318
That's why we see these weird things and people focusing on weird issues.

1422
01:27:17,688 --> 01:27:21,818
It's because it's more, it's more lucrative for them to be political

1423
01:27:21,828 --> 01:27:23,958
than to actually provide value.

1424
01:27:24,573 --> 01:27:25,103
Exactly.

1425
01:27:25,373 --> 01:27:27,183
So back, so back to Twitter and Elon Musk.

1426
01:27:27,183 --> 01:27:34,414
So obviously we now know that Disney pressured Twitter to censor some content.

1427
01:27:35,473 --> 01:27:36,163
That's clear.

1428
01:27:36,944 --> 01:27:39,164
And one of the reasons why we're never going to have ads

1429
01:27:39,264 --> 01:27:40,404
on Orange Bluff, by the way.

1430
01:27:40,604 --> 01:27:41,869
It's also one of the reasons, right?

1431
01:27:42,299 --> 01:27:45,639
Because the moment you add ads, what is ads really?

1432
01:27:45,679 --> 01:27:49,299
It's somebody paying you to perform a certain action.

1433
01:27:49,669 --> 01:27:51,459
We go back to the economic incentive.

1434
01:27:52,229 --> 01:27:57,039
The more I get older, Knut, the more I realize that all of the

1435
01:27:57,039 --> 01:27:58,709
money, explain almost everything,

1436
01:27:59,259 --> 01:27:59,779
Absolutely.

1437
01:27:59,868 --> 01:28:03,763
all of the money It's, it's, it's, it's, whenever you look at the world

1438
01:28:03,763 --> 01:28:07,993
and you don't understand, just see where the money are and you're probably

1439
01:28:07,993 --> 01:28:09,063
going to end up finding the truth.

1440
01:28:09,103 --> 01:28:16,213
Anyway, so, so now Elon Musk said, yeah, so the way to escape the advertiser,

1441
01:28:16,273 --> 01:28:21,863
uh, uh, power over a platform is to charge people to use the service.

1442
01:28:21,943 --> 01:28:24,853
Cause obviously running a Twitter costs, I don't know, probably

1443
01:28:25,233 --> 01:28:26,603
50 million a year or more.

1444
01:28:26,603 --> 01:28:29,583
I don't know, but, uh, obviously, so there's a cost.

1445
01:28:30,708 --> 01:28:34,638
The cost, who paid, so here's something that you and I talk about this.

1446
01:28:35,478 --> 01:28:38,888
Whoever paid the cost has the power.

1447
01:28:40,128 --> 01:28:42,348
I repeat, whoever paid the cost has the power.

1448
01:28:43,888 --> 01:28:46,228
And if you don't pay the cost, you definitely have no power.

1449
01:28:47,498 --> 01:28:50,908
The person that pays the cost has power over you, in this case

1450
01:28:51,098 --> 01:28:55,388
the advertiser, or the platform operator that has to pay the bills.

1451
01:28:56,208 --> 01:29:03,478
For the relay or the client on Nostr, it makes no sense to me that I need

1452
01:29:03,478 --> 01:29:08,088
censorship resistant because I have some specific communication that I

1453
01:29:08,088 --> 01:29:13,578
cannot put on Twitter and I go on Nostr and I want this communication to be

1454
01:29:13,938 --> 01:29:16,543
propagated, but I'm not paying for it.

1455
01:29:17,053 --> 01:29:18,133
How does that make any sense?

1456
01:29:19,176 --> 01:29:19,336
It

1457
01:29:19,711 --> 01:29:21,061
How is that a scalable model?

1458
01:29:21,121 --> 01:29:23,641
How, how can there be a scalable model?

1459
01:29:24,191 --> 01:29:25,901
It's just, it doesn't make any sense.

1460
01:29:26,236 --> 01:29:29,606
Am I correct reading between the lines here that you're telling us to

1461
01:29:29,616 --> 01:29:33,086
drop Orange Pill App as a sponsor of the show and start charging people

1462
01:29:33,086 --> 01:29:34,406
to listen to this thing instead?

1463
01:29:35,135 --> 01:29:41,105
You should, if you could, if you could, if you could do that, it would be,

1464
01:29:41,110 --> 01:29:44,775
obviously, you know, we're friends, so, but definitely yeah, of course.

1465
01:29:44,775 --> 01:29:47,135
If you, I, I give you a perfect example.

1466
01:29:48,435 --> 01:29:53,375
Um, I have my own morality, of course, and let's say you start shielding

1467
01:29:53,715 --> 01:29:59,115
Ethereum, you can bet your ass that I'm going to drop the advertising the

1468
01:29:59,115 --> 01:30:01,515
moment I hear you shielding Ethereum.

1469
01:30:02,395 --> 01:30:08,215
It's my duty, it's my duty to now fund things that I don't like.

1470
01:30:09,445 --> 01:30:11,925
It's not just my duty, it's strategic.

1471
01:30:12,642 --> 01:30:13,192
Of course.

1472
01:30:14,083 --> 01:30:19,663
But this is the thing, uh, if I may interrupt again, like, this is why I

1473
01:30:19,703 --> 01:30:24,163
think the morals are slightly different when it comes to this type of pod.

1474
01:30:24,753 --> 01:30:29,853
Uh, and advertising and in, with Bitcoin companies in general, because

1475
01:30:29,883 --> 01:30:34,173
we're, we are incentivized to help one another and we all benefit if

1476
01:30:34,293 --> 01:30:36,803
each from each other's success.

1477
01:30:37,273 --> 01:30:40,913
And still we have to be picky in the Bitcoin space as well with our

1478
01:30:40,913 --> 01:30:46,263
sponsors because we, we really do want to, to, to use only sponsors

1479
01:30:46,503 --> 01:30:48,703
whose products we actually use.

1480
01:30:49,123 --> 01:30:53,368
And, and, uh, That's, that, and, you know, there are so many pods where you

1481
01:30:53,368 --> 01:30:58,118
can tell that that's an absolute lie when, when they say this, you know,

1482
01:30:58,118 --> 01:31:02,488
this ball shaving kit is the only ball shaving kit I use, like, I mean,

1483
01:31:03,028 --> 01:31:03,658
How do you know?

1484
01:31:03,658 --> 01:31:05,418
The trust don't verify.

1485
01:31:07,828 --> 01:31:08,998
so, so, um.

1486
01:31:09,693 --> 01:31:13,373
So, so that's, I think this is a different thing, and it's

1487
01:31:13,373 --> 01:31:16,203
also, like, we want to help.

1488
01:31:16,653 --> 01:31:18,473
If we can help, we want to help.

1489
01:31:19,180 --> 01:31:24,930
It's amazing because we live in this system called Bitcoin, that the more

1490
01:31:24,980 --> 01:31:30,650
people, so I think if I, if I just look at the, from a profit motive, right, I

1491
01:31:30,650 --> 01:31:34,670
just say orange pull up is successful.

1492
01:31:34,700 --> 01:31:40,380
If more people are in Bitcoin, clearly, except that guy, more people get into

1493
01:31:40,380 --> 01:31:45,610
Bitcoin because more people listen to Knut, by definition, you're orange

1494
01:31:45,630 --> 01:31:47,110
pilling people every single day.

1495
01:31:48,145 --> 01:31:51,905
Your content is listed every single day, and whether it's one or a thousand or

1496
01:31:51,905 --> 01:31:57,485
a million, every single day somebody listens to you and the lights goes on.

1497
01:31:58,705 --> 01:31:59,895
And now eventually that

1498
01:32:00,097 --> 01:32:00,850
What

1499
01:32:00,995 --> 01:32:03,965
person might end up in orange pilling because, sorry,

1500
01:32:05,895 --> 01:32:07,355
It's just exhilarating.

1501
01:32:08,335 --> 01:32:09,775
um, which one?

1502
01:32:11,235 --> 01:32:15,015
Of orange pilling someone every day, like, if that is true, like.

1503
01:32:15,875 --> 01:32:17,085
it has to be true.

1504
01:32:17,095 --> 01:32:17,815
It's beautiful.

1505
01:32:18,635 --> 01:32:20,535
It has to be true.

1506
01:32:20,975 --> 01:32:23,105
Your tweets are orange pilling people every day.

1507
01:32:24,015 --> 01:32:25,505
Your content is orange pilling people every day.

1508
01:32:25,535 --> 01:32:33,265
It is, you know, it's It's um, and so I benefit from Knut and you probably

1509
01:32:33,275 --> 01:32:37,095
benefit from me because one, I tell people to watch your show because you might

1510
01:32:37,105 --> 01:32:40,655
have an episode that goes, you know, like the one with the Jakum about the

1511
01:32:40,655 --> 01:32:45,205
ordinals and the sats and also because the more people are getting to Bitcoin

1512
01:32:45,205 --> 01:32:49,955
and now they have friends into Bitcoin and then somebody listen to your show

1513
01:32:50,515 --> 01:32:55,655
and tell one of their friends to, it's so, it's all a flywheel that we all

1514
01:32:55,675 --> 01:32:58,175
participate, even if we're not connected.

1515
01:32:59,737 --> 01:33:00,547
Yeah, it's magical.

1516
01:33:00,547 --> 01:33:01,387
It it's magical.

1517
01:33:01,387 --> 01:33:02,737
It's it's incentive structure.

1518
01:33:03,067 --> 01:33:04,687
It's the thing you talked about before.

1519
01:33:04,687 --> 01:33:06,647
It doesn't matter that we're in different countries.

1520
01:33:06,687 --> 01:33:09,167
We all benefit from the success of Bitcoin.

1521
01:33:09,527 --> 01:33:12,927
And by proxy, then we all benefit from the success of other Bitcoiners,

1522
01:33:13,197 --> 01:33:15,087
regardless of what their business is,

1523
01:33:15,552 --> 01:33:16,632
Ab absolute.

1524
01:33:16,662 --> 01:33:17,652
Yeah, absolutely.

1525
01:33:17,987 --> 01:33:21,547
as long as they're not fiat in it for the fiat gains.

1526
01:33:22,522 --> 01:33:24,412
As long as it's now, it is now Ftx

1527
01:33:26,155 --> 01:33:29,185
last piece, last, last, last criticism of No sir.

1528
01:33:30,165 --> 01:33:32,025
And this is devil's advocate of course.

1529
01:33:32,925 --> 01:33:34,605
there's also a strategic element.

1530
01:33:35,900 --> 01:33:38,580
So I've learned about Bitcoin mostly on Twitter.

1531
01:33:39,020 --> 01:33:43,350
I mean, not that I've learned mostly, but I've, I've heard about it on Twitter

1532
01:33:44,010 --> 01:33:48,390
and I've got, I follow you on Twitter before I listen to your podcast, right?

1533
01:33:49,125 --> 01:33:51,425
Twitter is the battleground of ideas.

1534
01:33:51,965 --> 01:33:55,205
Global is where ideas can shape, where ideas can share.

1535
01:33:55,245 --> 01:33:56,065
And again, we go back to.

1536
01:33:56,695 --> 01:33:58,265
The propagation of ideas, right?

1537
01:33:59,152 --> 01:34:04,212
And Bitcoin adoption is, let's say, 1%, so 99 percent of the people have no

1538
01:34:04,212 --> 01:34:07,492
idea what Bitcoin is, or they don't like Bitcoin, or they believe Bitcoin is a

1539
01:34:08,112 --> 01:34:10,152
ball in the ocean and a kid in the well.

1540
01:34:10,512 --> 01:34:11,422
Whatever, whatever.

1541
01:34:12,552 --> 01:34:17,322
So now, with Nostr, you take There's only Bitcoiners, pretty much, that

1542
01:34:17,542 --> 01:34:18,602
talk about each other as Bitcoiners.

1543
01:34:20,412 --> 01:34:22,932
Now these people are outside the battlefield.

1544
01:34:24,422 --> 01:34:27,032
I want, so let's say Matt Odell, right?

1545
01:34:27,392 --> 01:34:32,202
Which big noster and great communicator and very smart guy.

1546
01:34:33,482 --> 01:34:39,422
Do you think that Odell is, is best, uh, place in a in no.

1547
01:34:39,782 --> 01:34:40,562
Or on Twitter?

1548
01:34:41,122 --> 01:34:46,822
If I just look at Bitcoin adoption, I want big, I want to del in, in the battlefield.

1549
01:34:47,673 --> 01:34:51,653
I don't wanna del on, on a top of a mountain with 10 big corners

1550
01:34:51,658 --> 01:34:52,703
talking about how beautiful his.

1551
01:34:54,063 --> 01:34:58,873
It's, it's a strategic mistake to take your best players off the field.

1552
01:35:00,093 --> 01:35:05,033
The field, it's Twitter and YouTube and LinkedIn and

1553
01:35:05,033 --> 01:35:06,493
mainstream media, it's not Nostr.

1554
01:35:07,293 --> 01:35:10,453
Nostr is like, oh, we already won, everybody's a big conner, now we

1555
01:35:10,453 --> 01:35:13,783
can talk about, but we're not, you know, we're 1 percent adoption rate.

1556
01:35:15,193 --> 01:35:16,503
battle has not even begun.

1557
01:35:17,703 --> 01:35:23,803
So, by going on Nostr, you, you, you suck away some of these players, some of this

1558
01:35:23,803 --> 01:35:29,563
talent, and you kind of hide it in a room, and now, it doesn't really help Bitcoin.

1559
01:35:30,526 --> 01:35:35,486
Well, yeah, um, there's, I slightly disagree with that.

1560
01:35:35,496 --> 01:35:41,796
I think like, uh, though it's a loss for Twitter to not have Odell or Gigi there as

1561
01:35:41,796 --> 01:35:49,126
much anymore, uh, it's definitely a loss, but, uh, I still think they're, they might

1562
01:35:49,126 --> 01:35:55,251
be, you know, tired of that whole thing, I mean, um, Getting a lot of followers

1563
01:35:55,251 --> 01:36:01,261
on Twitter is not a, it's not a positive only, uh, like the more people that know

1564
01:36:01,271 --> 01:36:07,020
about you, the more, the more at risk you are of running into psychopaths, you know?

1565
01:36:07,150 --> 01:36:10,650
So, so I can understand why people don't, don't want.

1566
01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:15,410
Want to limit the amount of attention they get because it's,

1567
01:36:15,420 --> 01:36:18,760
it's sort of a fame or recognition.

1568
01:36:18,770 --> 01:36:23,420
It's sort of a beast that once, once you released, you can't tame it, you don't

1569
01:36:23,420 --> 01:36:26,690
know what will happen, you know, the stress and effect and everything like, uh,

1570
01:36:27,010 --> 01:36:29,960
so I can clearly see why people see that.

1571
01:36:30,040 --> 01:36:32,360
Oh, holy shit, I'm becoming famous.

1572
01:36:32,570 --> 01:36:35,600
I ought to stop this immediately and try not to be.

1573
01:36:36,155 --> 01:36:39,975
Now that's, that's, that's, that's great, but that's nothing to do with Nostr.

1574
01:36:40,025 --> 01:36:41,355
You could just stop tweeting.

1575
01:36:41,975 --> 01:36:42,405
Um,

1576
01:36:42,585 --> 01:36:45,635
you can stop tweeting, but then if you still have an urge to shitpost,

1577
01:36:46,075 --> 01:36:50,425
like, Nostr might be a good alternative because I guess the ratio of

1578
01:36:50,435 --> 01:36:52,545
psychos on Nostr is still smaller.

1579
01:36:52,545 --> 01:36:55,045
I mean, or let's put it another way.

1580
01:36:55,595 --> 01:36:59,365
There are, there are, there are real Bitcoin psychopaths on Nostr and

1581
01:36:59,365 --> 01:37:01,455
not, not, you know, fiat psychopaths.

1582
01:37:02,045 --> 01:37:03,265
So, uh, uh,

1583
01:37:03,445 --> 01:37:04,245
That's, that's true.

1584
01:37:04,285 --> 01:37:09,795
But anyway, so these are my three These are my three, uh, criticism

1585
01:37:09,825 --> 01:37:15,846
or problem that I see with Nostr, and hopefully somebody smarter than

1586
01:37:15,896 --> 01:37:20,986
me go and figure out how to, uh, because ideally it would be great.

1587
01:37:21,891 --> 01:37:27,001
If you have a platform just as powerful as Twitter, that is not controlled by

1588
01:37:27,361 --> 01:37:33,351
a big tech, even if it's Elon Musk, it would be beautiful if we had that tool.

1589
01:37:33,471 --> 01:37:37,991
The same way, it's very beautiful that I can send you any amount

1590
01:37:37,991 --> 01:37:39,591
of money I want with one click.

1591
01:37:40,361 --> 01:37:41,181
It's amazing.

1592
01:37:42,561 --> 01:37:46,451
And we have it with Bitcoin and obviously fiat, it's the opposite of that.

1593
01:37:47,021 --> 01:37:52,931
It would be great, but the difference that sending you money doesn't require

1594
01:37:52,931 --> 01:37:58,249
network effects, but me being on social media required network effects.

1595
01:37:59,578 --> 01:38:02,248
And so that's, you know, we go back to the three problems that I explained.

1596
01:38:03,044 --> 01:38:08,414
Yeah, hopefully we can both, uh, pick some better brain than, brains than

1597
01:38:08,414 --> 01:38:14,144
our own, uh, than our own on, uh, about this, these topics on Madeira, where

1598
01:38:14,144 --> 01:38:21,434
we'll be talking to, uh, some, a handful of jacks, uh, about this, hopefully,

1599
01:38:22,749 --> 01:38:24,889
Yeah, I know, Jack Dorsey would be great.

1600
01:38:26,079 --> 01:38:29,099
I had a little bit of, I don't know if you know this, but he summoned

1601
01:38:29,229 --> 01:38:32,019
me on Nostr a couple of months ago.

1602
01:38:32,759 --> 01:38:36,699
He said, you should come on Nostr to debate, kind of, you know, and then

1603
01:38:36,699 --> 01:38:41,329
I went, my, my, my arguments were not as, as refined as they are now.

1604
01:38:41,779 --> 01:38:44,469
It was like back in February, like very early days.

1605
01:38:45,914 --> 01:38:47,794
uh, I would love to be wrong.

1606
01:38:47,804 --> 01:38:52,584
Honestly, I don't criticize Nostr because I don't like Nostr.

1607
01:38:53,154 --> 01:38:57,734
I criticize Nostr because I see the problems and I don't see

1608
01:38:57,734 --> 01:38:59,094
the solution to those problems.

1609
01:38:59,504 --> 01:39:02,604
But I would love somebody to tell me, no, no, look, this is how it

1610
01:39:02,604 --> 01:39:03,654
goes, this is what's going on.

1611
01:39:03,804 --> 01:39:04,514
I would love that.

1612
01:39:04,704 --> 01:39:08,074
I would love, I would love nothing, I would love nothing

1613
01:39:08,234 --> 01:39:08,964
to be wrong about Nostr.

1614
01:39:09,817 --> 01:39:14,627
Yeah, so if you want Jack Dorsey to come on to the Freedom Footprint show

1615
01:39:14,967 --> 01:39:20,877
and debunk all of Matteo's arguments, leave a comment below, like, subscribe,

1616
01:39:21,077 --> 01:39:24,817
and click the bell button, brush your teeth, and read a good book every now

1617
01:39:24,817 --> 01:39:28,587
and then, and yeah, we'll make it happen.

1618
01:39:29,558 --> 01:39:29,998
Thank you.

1619
01:39:30,538 --> 01:39:31,448
Thank you very much.

1620
01:39:31,881 --> 01:39:34,791
Matteo, we've been going on for almost two hours now, which is

1621
01:39:34,801 --> 01:39:36,521
a bit longer than we usually do.

1622
01:39:36,651 --> 01:39:39,181
Uh, but I absolutely love this conversation.

1623
01:39:39,291 --> 01:39:40,671
It's always good to catch up.

1624
01:39:41,201 --> 01:39:43,701
And, uh, yeah, we'll see each other soon.

1625
01:39:43,701 --> 01:39:47,241
I'm looking forward to everything, everything Orange Pill app, and

1626
01:39:47,241 --> 01:39:51,771
everything we have, every good thing we have coming in the future.

1627
01:39:51,771 --> 01:39:53,151
And I have a feeling there's a lot.

1628
01:39:53,751 --> 01:39:54,581
So, thanks a lot.

1629
01:39:54,581 --> 01:39:59,301
And, uh, before we've, of course, we can find you on orangepill app.

1630
01:39:59,741 --> 01:40:00,901
Where else can we find you?

1631
01:40:00,911 --> 01:40:01,881
On Twitter, I guess?

1632
01:40:01,921 --> 01:40:02,981
Not so much on Nostr.

1633
01:40:03,920 --> 01:40:06,300
Uh, I don't have a Nostr account myself.

1634
01:40:06,300 --> 01:40:07,620
I have one for Orange Blup.

1635
01:40:07,690 --> 01:40:11,610
Uh, yeah, on Twitter, the Orange Blup is Orange Blup.

1636
01:40:11,610 --> 01:40:18,010
And then my personal one, uh, it's Matteo, M A T T E O P E L L E G.

1637
01:40:18,995 --> 01:40:20,705
Um, and that's my personal one.

1638
01:40:20,875 --> 01:40:23,005
And, uh, obviously, OrangePillApp, you can always find me.

1639
01:40:23,005 --> 01:40:25,045
I'm very, uh, receptive there.

1640
01:40:25,525 --> 01:40:27,435
And hopefully, I'll see you, a lot of you.

1641
01:40:27,475 --> 01:40:28,885
I know I'll see you guys in Madeira.

1642
01:40:29,645 --> 01:40:30,125
Great.

1643
01:40:30,865 --> 01:40:32,705
Take care and say hello to Brian.

1644
01:40:33,860 --> 01:40:34,240
Thank you.

1645
01:40:34,250 --> 01:40:35,030
Thank you, guys.

1646
01:40:36,100 --> 01:40:37,410
has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

1647
01:40:37,470 --> 01:40:39,500
Thanks a lot, Matteo, and thank you for listening.