Bringing Bitcoin to Madeira with Lawrence Lepard - From Bitcoin Atlantis - FFS #93

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mean, I heard the number for this conference was like 3, 000.

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Is that what you heard?

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In terms of athendees, yeah.

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Yeah, something like And I think, it's one of the bigger conferences they've had

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in this stadium, or on Madeira in general, because this is like the biggest venue

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this is a place I would go on a vacation with my wife.

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it's just such a nice place.

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Yeah.

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Instantly fall in love with it.

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when's Bitcoin going to go to a million dollars?

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I don't know.

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I mean, I follow Samson.

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He knows, I think we're going to see 100, 000 sometime, pretty soon.

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I mean, the havings coming and so forth.

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I think it really will get turbocharged when we see the next financial, I

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mean, I, J Powell pushing up interest rates, that slowed everything down

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in the monetary debasement world.

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I think we're about to have something else break.

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And when something does break, I think we're responsible to print more

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money again, as they always have.

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And that will really be the next turbocharged move that will take

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to certainly 200, 000, maybe headed towards half a million.

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This is the Freedom Footprint Show, a Bitcoin philosophy show with

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Knut Svanholm and me, Luke DeWolf.

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And we love to expand our freedom footprint.

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We hope you do too.

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So thanks for tuning in to the show, and we hope you enjoyed today's episode.

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Larry, welcome back to the Freedom Footprint Show.

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you.

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So nice to have you.

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Great to see you again.

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Yeah, same, uh, same to you, and welcome back to Madeira.

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Yeah.

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Fabulous to be here.

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I mean, it, uh, as you know, we were here a couple of years ago, right?

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yeah, it wasn't even two years ago, it's like in one

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June of a year and a half ago or

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Yeah, a year and a half

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year and a quarter.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, and now this, it's

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It's unbelievable.

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Yeah.

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Andre has really done a great job.

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Yeah, yeah, I'm lost for words, it's just amazing.

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Yeah.

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I mean, the speakers he got, we just listened to Michael

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Saylor and it's very impressive.

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Yeah.

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So.

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And I'm so fascinated with his passion.

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I mean, he doesn't need to do any of this, but he's the, I

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think he, I suspect he loves it.

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Well, that's right.

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And I think he really has the mission that we all have, which is

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to make the world a better place and fix the money, fix the world.

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I think, you know, he, he's an example of that, you know, a shining example.

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So.

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Yeah.

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And I think the love he gets back from the community is just,

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Yeah.

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And, but deserve it.

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I mean,

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Yeah.

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you know, he's obviously made his strong bet and, uh, and

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he's embraced the community.

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He's been very generous to everybody in the community and, you know, and, and

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has absorbed the ethos of the community, you know, I think as, as he's, he

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seemed, he sounds more and more like every Bitcoiner as time goes by, you

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know, um, which I think I really like,

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So, so, so let's, let's do a little backstory on this

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whole, uh, FreeMadeira thing.

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Like, we, we both ended up here for, for different reasons.

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Uh, so, so I'd like to hear your version of what happened one and a half years ago.

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So, so what, what, what made,

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Yeah, what made

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did you get here?

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as you know, I think the, the, the, the onshore impetus for this was

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Andre Loja, who is a Madeiran and a Bitcoiner, and was able to take the

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president of Madeira to the Miami Bitcoin show and orange pill him.

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And kind of thought, this is interesting, you know, if we could turn

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Madeira into an orange pilled island.

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That would be really meaningful and so, um, he kept kind of working that

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with the legislature here and then also with some of the legislature over on

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the mainland island of Portland, or you know, main shore of Portugal, I'm sorry.

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And not Portland, I'm thinking of Maine.

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Yeah, got my country's wrong.

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And um, so he reached out to Jeff Booth and said, Hey Jeff.

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Um, you know, could you round up some Bitcoiners and, and bring them over here?

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Uh, and we'll all make a campaign to truly orange pill the president,

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the legislature of Madeira, and perhaps some of the legislature.

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of mainland Portugal.

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And so Jeff reached out to, uh, friends he had in the community and I feel

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very fortunate to be one of them.

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I'm not quite sure why I got picked, but I did, um, cause I was

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an advocate of Bitcoin, also an advocate of gold prior to that.

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And, uh, you know, he reached out to you and Obi and, I mean, you

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know, Troy Cross and he, he kind of put together a cross section.

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I don't know how many of us were there, maybe 10 of us or so.

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a bit more, I think between 15 and 20, maybe a

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so.

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And

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Some, some, some came in a bit later, like Rob Brinder, for instance.

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Tagged along later on.

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So, so he, he, he got some people from all walks of life in Bitcoin.

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I mean, different, you know, I mean, as you know, Troy is kind

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of an energy guy and a mining guy.

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And, um, you know, you, you come at it as a publisher and having written books

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I don't think I was even in, like, I came from it earlier than, like, Jeff's

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cohort was one thing, and even though I know Jeff and stuff, I think the

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connection for me was through Andre.

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Because André, I had signed a contract with André for the

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Portuguese translation of the book,

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didn't realize that was, that was

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and then I got to know André a little better in Miami, and

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also, uh, President Miguel and

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Yeah.

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Prince Philip, who was also there with Daniel Prince, they shared, they were on

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the same plane together, so we hung out in Miami, and one thing led to another,

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Right, so he, you know, he ended up pulling this group together, and we all

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came over here, and what did we spend?

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A week, maybe, was it?

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Ten days?

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Yeah, yeah.

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And, you know, kind of, we did a lot of meetings with different

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government officials, we talked a lot internally about how to make Madeira

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more of a Bitcoin friendly island.

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You know, they really wanted to create an initiative that would make this a place

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where Bitcoiners would want to travel to, because, you know, Um, you know,

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and, and that could boost, you know, tourism and, and income to the island.

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I mean, at the time, El Salvador had just adopted.

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Um, you know, Bitcoin as, as their currency or as a, you know, as a reserve

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asset that they were going to hold and, um, and we saw, and I think Madeiran

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saw how much that generated in terms of additional tourism to El Salvador

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as Bitcoiners were thinking, hey, this is a good place to go on vacation.

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And so Madeira thought, oh, that would work.

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I mean, because Madeira does happen to be a, you know, tourism is a

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big part of the, of the revenue of the, you know, the Madeira Island.

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So, um, I think there was that piece of it as well, but they did a

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great job, pulled it all together.

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We, you know, I think it was an outstanding experience and I think

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we made a little bit of headway.

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You know, the Portugal is part of the eu and the EU is not particularly

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Bitcoin friendly, at least my understanding of it is that it isn't.

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friendly in general.

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right.

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Well, I know, for example, the ECB is not at all Bitcoin friendly.

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And so, you know, there were limits as to how far the, you know, the

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Portuguese, um, politicians can go, you know, with respect to, um, you know,

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um, pushing for a full Bitcoin standard.

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But they could certainly support the development of Bitcoin on the

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island, and, and we all did that.

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So, it was good.

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It was very good.

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Yeah, we had this think tank thing during the days and then in the

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afternoons, we went out and played.

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different types of excursions.

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excursions.

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Yeah.

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Andre rented a boat one day and we got to see a large part of the

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island, which is a gorgeous island.

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I mean, just fabulous.

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the island sells itself.

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does sell itself.

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I mean, highly recommend anyone who's watching this who hasn't

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been to Madeira, uh, this would be a great place to take a vacation.

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I really would.

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It's a lovely place.

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Yeah,

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that were great because we, we got to see all these old buildings in the

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central Funchal and, and talk to all of these people in all these institutions.

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And, and Jeff was like the natural alpha male of the flock,

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you're right.

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And there was one particular meeting where, uh, well, Jeff wasn't there.

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And it was just like having the, the baboons trying to figure out

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who's the alpha during the meeting.

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Yeah, I know which one you mean.

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With the power guys, right?

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Yeah, yeah,

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yeah, that was really funny.

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Like from a, from a group psychology perspective, it was hilarious.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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we had a great time.

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And a few of us, few of us, it didn't stop here, because we went to

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Lisbon and we, we were in parliament

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Yeah.

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I went with you on that.

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I remember that.

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And that was fun.

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yeah, we talked to a bunch of politicians, I think from the most,

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quote unquote, libertarian party, but also for the social democrats, I

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believe, and some right wing party.

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Uh, and that was interesting to like,

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It was, it was, it was, it was very interesting.

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I mean, I, you know, they, I think, and they were receptive.

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Um, that was, you know, which was impressive.

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They were open minded and receptive.

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they weren't hostile.

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Exactly.

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That's what I mean by,

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that's,

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that's a, that's a,

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as you can hope

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exactly.

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And something as new as this.

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Yeah.

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And so it was great.

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It was all good.

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So, so when, when did you come in?

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Like, uh, yesterday?

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and for this particular trip, yeah, so it's Friday.

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I flew overnight Tuesday.

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Um, I'm in Florida in the wintertime, so I flew Miami, Lisbon, Lisbon,

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Madeira, and got here Wednesday morning.

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Okay.

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So, so you've been here for a couple of days.

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Have you seen some of the places that take Bitcoin now?

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I, you know, I, I'd like to, and I've been through the downtown area a bit,

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but as, as you know, how these things go, you end up, um, you know, I'm, I'm

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with some partners, we're running a fund, we're investing in Bitcoin things.

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So I've got fund meetings, I've got a podcast.

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And so I haven't had a lot of vacation time, but that's, but that's okay.

245
00:09:38,014 --> 00:09:38,084
I

246
00:09:38,214 --> 00:09:40,804
so we're literally stealing your vacation time,

247
00:09:41,104 --> 00:09:44,274
no, no, no, you're, no, you're not because, because we're at the conference

248
00:09:44,274 --> 00:09:47,824
and we just watched sailors speak and then, you know, I'm in an hour or two.

249
00:09:47,824 --> 00:09:48,874
I'm going to go back and be on a panel.

250
00:09:48,894 --> 00:09:50,384
So it's all good.

251
00:09:50,424 --> 00:09:51,694
This is just a break in the action.

252
00:09:51,694 --> 00:09:51,964
So

253
00:09:52,984 --> 00:09:56,674
yeah, I hope you get the chance to, to, to walk around Funchal and see all the

254
00:09:56,674 --> 00:09:58,544
places that accept Bitcoin now because

255
00:09:58,544 --> 00:09:59,354
yeah, I

256
00:09:59,354 --> 00:10:00,214
a lot has happened,

257
00:10:00,294 --> 00:10:01,034
I looked at the map.

258
00:10:01,034 --> 00:10:03,964
I mean, there was zero when we were here last time and there are quite a few now.

259
00:10:03,964 --> 00:10:04,184
Yeah.

260
00:10:04,794 --> 00:10:11,494
yeah, yeah, it's really great to see, like, especially since, uh, this Sovereign

261
00:10:11,494 --> 00:10:13,124
Engineering Cohort has been here for

262
00:10:13,234 --> 00:10:13,484
Yeah.

263
00:10:13,484 --> 00:10:15,144
Well, and some of our group moved here.

264
00:10:15,144 --> 00:10:16,474
Like Nico moved here, didn't he?

265
00:10:16,574 --> 00:10:18,054
And Niko was already here,

266
00:10:18,084 --> 00:10:18,524
Oh, was he?

267
00:10:18,564 --> 00:10:19,244
I didn't realize that.

268
00:10:19,244 --> 00:10:19,564
Okay.

269
00:10:19,694 --> 00:10:20,514
Rob moved here,

270
00:10:20,549 --> 00:10:21,009
Rob moved here.

271
00:10:21,089 --> 00:10:21,379
That's right.

272
00:10:21,379 --> 00:10:22,072
Yeah.

273
00:10:22,153 --> 00:10:25,873
and there's a bunch of other Bitcoiners that moved, moved to the island after

274
00:10:25,873 --> 00:10:29,263
that thing, and we, we, we got a little bit of attention, so I think,

275
00:10:29,633 --> 00:10:33,593
and, and the more, it's like the Metcalfe's Law, you know, the network,

276
00:10:33,953 --> 00:10:35,723
the value of the network is, uh,

277
00:10:35,798 --> 00:10:36,438
It grows.

278
00:10:36,478 --> 00:10:36,758
Yeah.

279
00:10:37,048 --> 00:10:37,478
Yeah.

280
00:10:37,528 --> 00:10:38,128
Geometrically.

281
00:10:38,128 --> 00:10:38,488
Yeah.

282
00:10:38,753 --> 00:10:42,083
if we, if we have 20 Bitcoiners here, the, already the value of

283
00:10:42,083 --> 00:10:43,853
the network is immense, because,

284
00:10:44,168 --> 00:10:44,778
to where it was.

285
00:10:44,808 --> 00:10:45,178
Yeah.

286
00:10:45,248 --> 00:10:45,608
Yeah.

287
00:10:45,948 --> 00:10:50,378
So, so, and I think especially after this event, uh, uh, that a lot of people's,

288
00:10:50,528 --> 00:10:54,848
uh, people are gonna, you know, decide to stay here or consider moving here.

289
00:10:55,058 --> 00:10:57,188
Well, and, and I don't know, I'd be curious.

290
00:10:57,188 --> 00:10:58,698
I haven't heard, I didn't have a chance to ask Andre.

291
00:10:58,698 --> 00:11:01,748
I'd love to ask him, has the tour, have we seen more tourism as a

292
00:11:01,748 --> 00:11:03,028
result of the Bitcoin connection?

293
00:11:03,078 --> 00:11:06,128
You know, I don't, I'd be interested to get that the data point, they

294
00:11:06,128 --> 00:11:07,338
must have some information on that.

295
00:11:07,428 --> 00:11:08,738
Could be hard to quantify though.

296
00:11:08,808 --> 00:11:09,668
Yeah, that's true.

297
00:11:09,688 --> 00:11:09,778
I mean,

298
00:11:10,598 --> 00:11:12,518
Well, didn't he say something about that, uh,

299
00:11:13,238 --> 00:11:16,468
there was some millions of euros that they estimate is going to, like, I mean,

300
00:11:16,468 --> 00:11:19,788
I think, I think saying a number doesn't make any sense here, but there's, I

301
00:11:19,788 --> 00:11:24,278
think this conference is supposed to bring in quite a lot, uh, to the economy

302
00:11:24,278 --> 00:11:25,508
just from everyone traveling here.

303
00:11:25,508 --> 00:11:26,328
And I, I mean, I think,

304
00:11:26,488 --> 00:11:27,488
I think there's something to that.

305
00:11:27,728 --> 00:11:28,548
Yeah, for sure.

306
00:11:28,758 --> 00:11:31,508
I mean, I heard the number for this conference was like 3, 000.

307
00:11:31,508 --> 00:11:32,118
Is that what you heard?

308
00:11:32,518 --> 00:11:34,058
In terms of athendees, yeah.

309
00:11:34,138 --> 00:11:35,768
Yeah, something like that.

310
00:11:36,258 --> 00:11:41,022
And I think, uh, it's one of the bigger conferences they've had in this

311
00:11:41,032 --> 00:11:44,792
stadium, or on Madeira in general, because this is like the biggest venue

312
00:11:44,872 --> 00:11:45,292
I see.

313
00:11:45,502 --> 00:11:45,982
Yeah.

314
00:11:46,872 --> 00:11:48,342
So that's great, of course.

315
00:11:48,512 --> 00:11:48,872
Yeah.

316
00:11:48,872 --> 00:11:50,422
It's all good.

317
00:11:50,422 --> 00:11:54,902
I mean, um, and you know, I now know that, you know, when I get a

318
00:11:54,902 --> 00:11:57,462
chance, I mean, this is a place I would go on a vacation with my wife.

319
00:11:58,002 --> 00:11:59,572
You know, it's just such a nice place.

320
00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:00,350
Yeah.

321
00:12:01,060 --> 00:12:02,500
Instantly fall in love with it.

322
00:12:02,530 --> 00:12:03,490
It's impossible not

323
00:12:03,505 --> 00:12:04,950
Yeah.

324
00:12:05,255 --> 00:12:08,705
The show is sponsored by Amber App, the number one Bitcoin exchange

325
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326
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327
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329
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330
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332
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334
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335
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336
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337
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338
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339
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340
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341
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342
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343
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344
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345
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346
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347
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348
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349
00:13:11,255 --> 00:13:13,315
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350
00:13:13,477 --> 00:13:17,977
so anyway, from, from one thing to another, the, you had, uh, um, some,

351
00:13:17,977 --> 00:13:20,862
uh, you've had some difficulties with your Twitter account right there, right?

352
00:13:20,977 --> 00:13:21,817
Can you tell us about

353
00:13:21,922 --> 00:13:27,592
So I, I offer this as a kind of what not to do and, uh, and, and, you

354
00:13:27,592 --> 00:13:31,302
know, a, a matter of, uh, caution and warning for, and particularly

355
00:13:31,302 --> 00:13:33,722
probably for older people, because I think younger people might, I told

356
00:13:33,722 --> 00:13:36,302
my daughter what happened here and my daughter was like, dad, you're an idiot.

357
00:13:36,432 --> 00:13:40,012
You know, anyone knows not to do that, but let me tell you what happened to me.

358
00:13:40,152 --> 00:13:43,882
I was out one Saturday morning and I started getting all these text

359
00:13:43,882 --> 00:13:46,482
messages, um, from my mobile provider.

360
00:13:46,497 --> 00:13:47,885
So, you have a lot of people that are saying somebody's

361
00:13:47,885 --> 00:13:48,641
trying to change their SIM card.

362
00:13:48,641 --> 00:13:49,727
Do you approve of that?

363
00:13:49,727 --> 00:13:51,047
And I reply, yes or no.

364
00:13:51,077 --> 00:13:51,407
No.

365
00:13:52,027 --> 00:13:53,707
And another one, you know, ask again.

366
00:13:53,757 --> 00:13:54,137
No.

367
00:13:54,477 --> 00:13:55,767
I got like five or six of these.

368
00:13:55,777 --> 00:13:58,757
So somebody was clearly had the ability to get to my mobile provider

369
00:13:58,757 --> 00:14:00,307
and try and swap out my SIM card.

370
00:14:00,657 --> 00:14:03,377
They were trying to SIM swap me, which, um, people who know about

371
00:14:03,397 --> 00:14:05,317
2FA, two factor authentication.

372
00:14:05,627 --> 00:14:06,757
A lot of it comes through a phone.

373
00:14:06,757 --> 00:14:08,977
And if you can steal somebody's phone number, then you can steal

374
00:14:08,977 --> 00:14:10,737
a lot of their online identity.

375
00:14:11,307 --> 00:14:14,527
And so, but anyway, so I was now on high alert that, you know, somebody

376
00:14:14,527 --> 00:14:15,597
was trying to take my account.

377
00:14:15,597 --> 00:14:17,347
I actually ended up calling my mobile provider.

378
00:14:17,762 --> 00:14:21,652
And saying, you know, definitely I'm not changing my SIM anytime soon, lock

379
00:14:21,652 --> 00:14:23,572
it down, ignore these requests, etc.

380
00:14:24,132 --> 00:14:26,552
But then it started happening with other things, you know, I got a request

381
00:14:26,552 --> 00:14:29,272
from Uber, you know, or somebody's trying to sign into your Uber account,

382
00:14:29,322 --> 00:14:30,312
you know, do you approve of this?

383
00:14:30,312 --> 00:14:33,432
And Amazon, and all of a sudden, so, so clearly I was being quote

384
00:14:33,432 --> 00:14:34,742
unquote digitally attacked.

385
00:14:35,137 --> 00:14:37,577
Somebody was trying to get into my online accounts.

386
00:14:37,887 --> 00:14:41,957
Okay, here's where I fell for the flaw, but, but, you know, in my own

387
00:14:41,957 --> 00:14:43,927
defense, I was freaked out, right?

388
00:14:43,927 --> 00:14:45,857
I'm like, gosh, somebody's trying to get into all my accounts

389
00:14:45,857 --> 00:14:46,617
and I'm kind of freaked out.

390
00:14:46,937 --> 00:14:50,887
I get a text that says, hi, this is Google Gmail support.

391
00:14:51,437 --> 00:14:53,697
Somebody is trying to get into your email.

392
00:14:54,377 --> 00:14:58,047
And would you please call us immediately in order to lock down your email?

393
00:14:58,607 --> 00:14:59,127
Okay?

394
00:14:59,577 --> 00:15:01,867
This was a phishing attack, which, you know, was a fake.

395
00:15:01,877 --> 00:15:04,537
This was not Google, but it was an Atlanta number.

396
00:15:05,027 --> 00:15:07,257
And so I called this number in Atlanta, Georgia.

397
00:15:07,337 --> 00:15:07,987
The guy answered.

398
00:15:07,987 --> 00:15:09,207
It sounded very official.

399
00:15:09,517 --> 00:15:11,427
You know, hello, Google Gmail customer support.

400
00:15:11,437 --> 00:15:12,077
How can I help you?

401
00:15:12,527 --> 00:15:13,677
You know, and I told him who I was.

402
00:15:13,677 --> 00:15:14,467
I told him, oh, yes, sir.

403
00:15:14,467 --> 00:15:15,197
I get it.

404
00:15:15,197 --> 00:15:15,567
Don't worry.

405
00:15:15,567 --> 00:15:16,587
We can solve this problem for you.

406
00:15:16,587 --> 00:15:18,727
We can lock your account down so nobody can get into your email.

407
00:15:19,077 --> 00:15:21,877
All I need you to do is read back the two factor identification I'm

408
00:15:21,877 --> 00:15:23,057
just about to send you from Gmail.

409
00:15:23,057 --> 00:15:23,547
That's how you lock down your email.

410
00:15:24,127 --> 00:15:24,497
Right?

411
00:15:24,727 --> 00:15:26,917
And so I get the Gmail code, right?

412
00:15:27,327 --> 00:15:29,227
Of course, he was a bad actor.

413
00:15:29,237 --> 00:15:30,327
He now had that code.

414
00:15:30,647 --> 00:15:32,507
He instantly could take over my email.

415
00:15:33,587 --> 00:15:34,187
See what I'm saying?

416
00:15:34,467 --> 00:15:37,157
And so, so I read back what I shouldn't have read back, which

417
00:15:37,157 --> 00:15:38,667
was a two factor authentication.

418
00:15:38,957 --> 00:15:42,457
He could get in without knowing my password, change my password, lock me out.

419
00:15:42,887 --> 00:15:47,317
Then once he had my email, um, in my case, and it's because um, Twitter's

420
00:15:47,337 --> 00:15:50,367
not as good as giving as many two factor authentication choices,

421
00:15:50,367 --> 00:15:53,927
he My two factor authentication on Twitter was my mail, right?

422
00:15:54,167 --> 00:15:56,727
So now he had control of my mail, he could go get control of my Twitter.

423
00:15:57,257 --> 00:16:00,497
And then he instantly posted on Twitter, he took down a lot of my stuff, and

424
00:16:00,497 --> 00:16:03,747
he instantly started posting all this shitcoin stuff, and all these, you know,

425
00:16:03,747 --> 00:16:06,767
free airdrops and free money and get this and click here and click there.

426
00:16:07,087 --> 00:16:09,837
Which apparently I was told, and I don't know if this is how it works, but I was

427
00:16:09,837 --> 00:16:13,587
told that if people were to click on those links, it could reach into the phone, grab

428
00:16:13,637 --> 00:16:15,887
any crypto wallet they had and drain it.

429
00:16:16,417 --> 00:16:17,697
I don't know if that's accurate or true.

430
00:16:17,697 --> 00:16:20,547
I would imagine somebody would have to make some steps to have that happen,

431
00:16:20,557 --> 00:16:24,912
but But that was their, you know, I have 160, 000 plus followers on Twitter

432
00:16:25,202 --> 00:16:28,892
and so, so they're figuring, I mean, obviously the reason I was a target is

433
00:16:28,892 --> 00:16:31,572
they're thinking, hey, if we can, you know, get just a few of these followers,

434
00:16:31,602 --> 00:16:34,082
it's a crypto guy, we get a few of these followers, drain their wallet.

435
00:16:34,462 --> 00:16:35,652
That's real money, right?

436
00:16:35,882 --> 00:16:37,002
So that's why it occurred.

437
00:16:37,422 --> 00:16:42,232
Um, you know, the bad news of it was, it took a long time to unwind this.

438
00:16:42,242 --> 00:16:44,862
I mean, first of all, getting control of my Gmail again was quite tough.

439
00:16:45,377 --> 00:16:48,917
Um, fortunately my daughter actually works at Google, kind of saved my ass,

440
00:16:48,947 --> 00:16:52,067
got me to a very high level techie there who was able to authenticate me

441
00:16:52,067 --> 00:16:53,987
and we got the, we got the mail back.

442
00:16:54,007 --> 00:16:54,607
That was good.

443
00:16:55,157 --> 00:16:58,417
But the Twitter was a much more difficult problem because Twitter

444
00:16:58,417 --> 00:17:02,417
has hundreds of millions of users and Elon, when he came in, in order to

445
00:17:02,797 --> 00:17:06,457
drive profitability and cut costs, really eliminated a lot of the support.

446
00:17:06,787 --> 00:17:09,667
And so, as they say, you know, there's just no, there just aren't enough

447
00:17:09,677 --> 00:17:11,557
people in customer support at Twitter.

448
00:17:11,892 --> 00:17:13,032
To deal with issues.

449
00:17:13,082 --> 00:17:15,782
I mean, it's just, they're, they have thousands of issues and,

450
00:17:15,792 --> 00:17:18,212
you know, hundreds of people or, you know, not enough people.

451
00:17:18,642 --> 00:17:23,462
And so, um, what I was able to do there was through networking and contacts

452
00:17:23,462 --> 00:17:28,352
and cyber security people finally get to somebody who had some drag at

453
00:17:28,352 --> 00:17:30,012
Twitter, which is kind of what it took.

454
00:17:30,382 --> 00:17:34,512
And, and they were able to, you know, reach out to their contact at Twitter

455
00:17:34,512 --> 00:17:36,022
and say, this is a special case.

456
00:17:36,232 --> 00:17:37,932
You got to go down and focus on it right now.

457
00:17:38,512 --> 00:17:42,132
and restore it and so I did it took me a week or two but I did get restored on

458
00:17:42,132 --> 00:17:46,182
Twitter and all was good and I set up a different two factor FA but back to

459
00:17:46,182 --> 00:17:49,822
actually back to the original risk the original risk was I was going to get sim

460
00:17:49,822 --> 00:17:54,082
swapped and I immediately called some of my friends in the crypto space who've

461
00:17:54,412 --> 00:17:58,752
been sim swapped and in sim swapping and for those who are familiar and unfamiliar

462
00:17:58,752 --> 00:18:01,712
with it it's really important it's where somebody would steal your phone number

463
00:18:02,412 --> 00:18:05,662
And it can create a lot of havoc because they can get into your bank account,

464
00:18:05,712 --> 00:18:08,762
they can wire money, they can do all kinds of things if you're using, because

465
00:18:08,782 --> 00:18:12,052
as you know, when you're doing two factor, most people have their two factor

466
00:18:12,292 --> 00:18:13,742
authentication set up on their phone.

467
00:18:14,022 --> 00:18:16,792
They haven't taken the time to put on Authy or Google Authenticator.

468
00:18:17,102 --> 00:18:19,152
They don't have the little, I'm forgetting the name, but there's

469
00:18:19,152 --> 00:18:20,382
a little dongle thing that you can

470
00:18:20,687 --> 00:18:20,867
yeah.

471
00:18:21,132 --> 00:18:23,472
that, you know, is also an authenticator.

472
00:18:23,617 --> 00:18:24,577
UB key, I think.

473
00:18:25,042 --> 00:18:25,482
Exactly.

474
00:18:25,482 --> 00:18:25,832
Thank you.

475
00:18:26,212 --> 00:18:27,672
Um, and I've ordered some of those by the way.

476
00:18:28,132 --> 00:18:30,202
And, um, so in any case.

477
00:18:30,902 --> 00:18:35,892
The SimSwap problem has become really a big problem because unfortunately what

478
00:18:35,892 --> 00:18:39,252
they're uncovering is that in some of these phone companies, there's corruption.

479
00:18:39,852 --> 00:18:43,592
And so if you get a bad employee, and it's not just the phone company,

480
00:18:43,592 --> 00:18:46,882
it could be the phone company's store, but if you get a bad employee

481
00:18:46,882 --> 00:18:48,512
that has some override codes.

482
00:18:49,012 --> 00:18:52,762
They can get in there and override the protections and let, somebody

483
00:18:52,762 --> 00:18:53,872
will steal your phone number.

484
00:18:53,872 --> 00:18:57,882
So to those listening, what I would say, you will know that if you ever wake up,

485
00:18:58,272 --> 00:19:02,692
turn on your phone and there's literally no phone service, you've been SIM swapped.

486
00:19:03,232 --> 00:19:05,762
Your phone doesn't work, immediately go to another phone, call your

487
00:19:06,102 --> 00:19:09,532
cellular provider, tell them what happened and unwind it.

488
00:19:10,002 --> 00:19:13,542
But in my case, what I did, because it was recommended to me by so many

489
00:19:13,542 --> 00:19:14,712
of the security experts and I'm.

490
00:19:15,242 --> 00:19:17,692
This is a shameless plug, but I don't get anything for it and I'll

491
00:19:17,692 --> 00:19:19,132
just, I like them, they're very good.

492
00:19:19,432 --> 00:19:22,832
There's a company called Efani, E F A N I.

493
00:19:23,442 --> 00:19:27,142
This company sits on top of your cell or your provider and

494
00:19:27,142 --> 00:19:29,312
controls the keys to your SIM card.

495
00:19:29,642 --> 00:19:32,782
So that you, even if there were a malevolent actor at the cell

496
00:19:32,782 --> 00:19:37,162
provider, they're not able to change the settings on your SIM card.

497
00:19:37,292 --> 00:19:40,842
Now you pay a service for this and it's not cheap, frankly it's

498
00:19:40,842 --> 00:19:42,372
about a thousand dollars a year.

499
00:19:42,892 --> 00:19:46,992
But, if you're a high profile person, in my case I have 160, 000 files, you

500
00:19:46,992 --> 00:19:50,192
know, I'm a target for SIM swapping, and there have been people like me who

501
00:19:50,192 --> 00:19:51,762
have been SIM swapped multiple times.

502
00:19:52,152 --> 00:19:55,672
And so, in my case, it was worth, and I've now signed up with Afani

503
00:19:55,672 --> 00:19:56,822
and it's been a very good experience.

504
00:19:56,832 --> 00:20:02,842
So, um, you know, never, ever read a two factor authentication to anybody on the

505
00:20:02,842 --> 00:20:06,912
phone until you've verified who they are, and that was the mistake that I made.

506
00:20:07,332 --> 00:20:10,612
But, you know, in my defense, I was susceptible to the mistake because

507
00:20:10,612 --> 00:20:12,072
I felt like I was being attacked.

508
00:20:12,552 --> 00:20:14,762
it's great that you're honest about it and like,

509
00:20:14,922 --> 00:20:15,582
look, I don't mind.

510
00:20:15,602 --> 00:20:19,592
I mean, look, my daughter said, dad, you're an idiot, but, and I am, but, but

511
00:20:19,592 --> 00:20:22,802
I'd rather tell, you know, I'd rather warn people because these crooks have

512
00:20:22,802 --> 00:20:24,232
gotten pretty sophisticated, right?

513
00:20:24,292 --> 00:20:24,922
I mean, they can,

514
00:20:25,032 --> 00:20:27,972
And it's, it's going to get worse with, with the AI and

515
00:20:27,972 --> 00:20:29,472
when, when they can pretend,

516
00:20:30,117 --> 00:20:33,537
Well that's, so, so it's funny I'm not gonna tell who it was, but I called

517
00:20:33,557 --> 00:20:38,437
somebody in, that we all know, in the, in the Bitcoin community and I said, you

518
00:20:38,437 --> 00:20:39,567
know, it's Larry and help me with this.

519
00:20:39,567 --> 00:20:43,807
And he said, hang on a second, you're Larry, when was the last time I saw you?

520
00:20:44,147 --> 00:20:46,717
And I told him, what, what hobby do we have in common?

521
00:20:47,077 --> 00:20:48,447
And I said, okay, you're really Larry.

522
00:20:48,447 --> 00:20:49,297
I said, why did you do that?

523
00:20:49,297 --> 00:20:52,467
And he said, because it's not gonna be long until somebody's gonna be able to

524
00:20:52,467 --> 00:20:54,157
listen to two hours of you speaking.

525
00:20:54,742 --> 00:20:57,682
And they're going to have a voice generation capability where they

526
00:20:57,682 --> 00:20:59,772
can call up and pretend to be you.

527
00:20:59,772 --> 00:21:01,272
And it's going to sound like you.

528
00:21:01,532 --> 00:21:02,322
Isn't that amazing?

529
00:21:02,652 --> 00:21:03,342
It is amazing.

530
00:21:03,342 --> 00:21:04,542
And it's scary at the same

531
00:21:04,672 --> 00:21:05,562
It's totally scary.

532
00:21:05,562 --> 00:21:06,542
And think about it.

533
00:21:06,562 --> 00:21:07,602
They could do it with your kids.

534
00:21:07,742 --> 00:21:09,482
You know, Hey dad, it's, it's Neil.

535
00:21:09,552 --> 00:21:12,292
You know, I mean, Oh my God, we're terrified, right?

536
00:21:12,722 --> 00:21:12,992
Yeah.

537
00:21:12,992 --> 00:21:14,882
So you need to say something that only you would

538
00:21:15,202 --> 00:21:16,322
Well, that's right.

539
00:21:16,372 --> 00:21:19,622
And that's why what I've done with my family is, you know, you have safe words.

540
00:21:20,102 --> 00:21:24,712
You have words that you make a point, you know, to, to say that indicate

541
00:21:24,712 --> 00:21:26,152
that either something's not right here.

542
00:21:26,637 --> 00:21:29,387
So, so, so does my family.

543
00:21:29,387 --> 00:21:31,977
We have safe words, but I'm not able to say them on camera

544
00:21:32,007 --> 00:21:32,787
No, nobody would.

545
00:21:32,787 --> 00:21:33,507
That's that, that, that,

546
00:21:33,717 --> 00:21:34,697
for several reasons.

547
00:21:34,737 --> 00:21:36,747
That, you know, that, that violates the whole purpose of the

548
00:21:36,817 --> 00:21:37,037
Yeah.

549
00:21:37,037 --> 00:21:38,337
You think you're making a joke, but

550
00:21:38,527 --> 00:21:39,877
But, but I mean, but, but yeah.

551
00:21:39,877 --> 00:21:41,977
I mean, if my son were to call and say, Hey dad, I'm in trouble.

552
00:21:41,982 --> 00:21:42,577
I need some money.

553
00:21:42,577 --> 00:21:43,057
I'm here.

554
00:21:43,267 --> 00:21:45,337
You know, this, that and the other, you gotta do this, that, and the other.

555
00:21:45,547 --> 00:21:47,107
And I would say, okay, fine.

556
00:21:47,107 --> 00:21:47,947
What's our safe word?

557
00:21:48,447 --> 00:21:48,837
You know?

558
00:21:48,897 --> 00:21:51,077
And, uh, you know, they wouldn't know it.

559
00:21:52,267 --> 00:21:53,737
The thing is, genuinely, I,

560
00:21:53,867 --> 00:21:57,087
I, you probably don't know this about me, but I, I, cyber security is my day

561
00:21:57,087 --> 00:22:00,197
job, and yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, and, and, and what you're saying is,

562
00:22:00,207 --> 00:22:03,567
you are not an idiot, I'm, I'm like, I'm saying that cyber security awareness

563
00:22:03,567 --> 00:22:07,067
is, is a difficult thing, because as you're saying, everything is moving

564
00:22:07,067 --> 00:22:11,417
so fast, and, and the scenario you described, very sophisticated, these are

565
00:22:11,417 --> 00:22:14,697
people with resources and dedication, and, and the best cyber security in

566
00:22:14,697 --> 00:22:18,887
the world really, really doesn't work with someone with unlimited resources.

567
00:22:19,097 --> 00:22:20,897
Resources to, to pull off the attack.

568
00:22:20,897 --> 00:22:21,747
It just doesn't work.

569
00:22:22,567 --> 00:22:27,777
Well, and I would say that basically universally, all you can do is delay

570
00:22:27,777 --> 00:22:29,787
it, put up layers of defenses, this and

571
00:22:29,987 --> 00:22:30,447
Fair enough.

572
00:22:30,477 --> 00:22:33,907
Let me ask you, let me ask you about that, that AI, that voice AI.

573
00:22:33,907 --> 00:22:35,037
Is that, is that a real threat

574
00:22:35,372 --> 00:22:36,102
Oh, absolutely.

575
00:22:36,232 --> 00:22:38,542
It's absolutely like it's, it's

576
00:22:38,552 --> 00:22:40,562
very soon, very soon.

577
00:22:40,732 --> 00:22:43,632
I mean, they can make videos from a picture now.

578
00:22:43,652 --> 00:22:44,752
Like, yeah, yeah.

579
00:22:44,752 --> 00:22:47,622
So, so, and, and, uh, yeah, funny thing.

580
00:22:47,622 --> 00:22:51,162
I had a conversation with my mother about this and she's like, uh, do you

581
00:22:51,162 --> 00:22:56,352
know that you have to be because she's been a target for various, I mean

582
00:22:56,362 --> 00:23:00,772
simpler scams, but Still, and, and I tell her like, these things are gonna

583
00:23:00,772 --> 00:23:05,392
get more sophisticated, and she, she replies, I know, no, I'm watching, I

584
00:23:05,392 --> 00:23:09,272
know exactly what they're trying to do, because I watch public service news

585
00:23:09,272 --> 00:23:10,982
channels, and they tell me what to do.

586
00:23:11,442 --> 00:23:14,730
Yeah, you fell for the base, most basic scam of them all, you're

587
00:23:14,730 --> 00:23:16,832
watching, you're watching, yeah, you're

588
00:23:16,957 --> 00:23:17,467
the public service.

589
00:23:17,597 --> 00:23:17,927
State

590
00:23:17,937 --> 00:23:18,897
is propaganda!

591
00:23:19,227 --> 00:23:19,437
Like

592
00:23:19,797 --> 00:23:20,617
yeah, fair enough.

593
00:23:20,707 --> 00:23:20,967
Fair enough.

594
00:23:21,511 --> 00:23:23,791
The point I wanted to make, though, is that you're doing exactly the

595
00:23:23,791 --> 00:23:24,891
right thing in the aftermath.

596
00:23:25,181 --> 00:23:28,401
Building the awareness of exactly what happened, and now

597
00:23:28,401 --> 00:23:29,751
you have new defense mechanisms.

598
00:23:29,751 --> 00:23:31,621
I think the safe word thing is fantastic.

599
00:23:31,681 --> 00:23:33,991
Everyone should absolutely do that.

600
00:23:34,001 --> 00:23:38,581
Because that is the only way to really safeguard against this stuff.

601
00:23:38,591 --> 00:23:39,531
Because the technology,

602
00:23:39,531 --> 00:23:39,681
right?

603
00:23:39,831 --> 00:23:41,011
that is just freaky.

604
00:23:41,091 --> 00:23:43,401
I mean, that's freaky that somebody could call up and sound

605
00:23:43,411 --> 00:23:44,611
like somebody you know and love.

606
00:23:45,106 --> 00:23:47,696
And, you know, that's just really, that's terrifying.

607
00:23:48,031 --> 00:23:49,341
Yeah, I don't mean to, I don't mean

608
00:23:49,341 --> 00:23:51,891
to sound like everyone is inevitably going to get hacked.

609
00:23:51,891 --> 00:23:52,471
Knut was right.

610
00:23:52,691 --> 00:23:56,281
It gets costly, but if someone really wants to and is willing to

611
00:23:56,281 --> 00:24:00,891
spend the cost, then yeah, basically all the technology can eventually

612
00:24:00,891 --> 00:24:02,921
get, uh, get in there somehow.

613
00:24:02,921 --> 00:24:06,111
So you need to have non technology means of dealing with this, right?

614
00:24:06,341 --> 00:24:08,111
And the safe words is the perfect thing.

615
00:24:08,271 --> 00:24:10,731
And the in person connections is the perfect thing.

616
00:24:10,731 --> 00:24:13,301
You know, friends who, friends who know you for you, right?

617
00:24:13,451 --> 00:24:14,661
Are you, are you a spiderman?

618
00:24:15,626 --> 00:24:15,956
Yeah.

619
00:24:16,086 --> 00:24:16,426
Exactly.

620
00:24:16,621 --> 00:24:17,061
actually a

621
00:24:17,156 --> 00:24:17,886
actually

622
00:24:18,766 --> 00:24:22,806
Well, and, and, and genuinely, genuinely Bitcoin and cryptography is, is one of

623
00:24:22,806 --> 00:24:26,696
the, the only solutions here, basically, that, that you have something that,

624
00:24:26,716 --> 00:24:30,416
that if you can sign a message from a Bitcoin address that you control,

625
00:24:31,206 --> 00:24:34,046
that's genuinely hard to get into as long as you're, you're doing the

626
00:24:34,046 --> 00:24:35,556
right key management sort of thing.

627
00:24:36,126 --> 00:24:37,906
Uh, you got your private key on a hardware device.

628
00:24:37,906 --> 00:24:38,906
Yeah, a lot, a lot

629
00:24:38,906 --> 00:24:42,546
of this conference has been, a lot of the talks I've been having here is like,

630
00:24:42,566 --> 00:24:47,456
uh, uh, conversations I've been having is about how public to private public

631
00:24:47,456 --> 00:24:52,706
key cryptography is becoming a thing in, In people's lives, like, especially with

632
00:24:53,466 --> 00:24:57,596
Nostr catching on a bit more, people are getting, like, comfortable with,

633
00:24:57,606 --> 00:25:00,506
like, hang on a minute, uh, yeah, yeah,

634
00:25:00,776 --> 00:25:01,136
Prove it.

635
00:25:01,386 --> 00:25:01,696
Yeah.

636
00:25:02,016 --> 00:25:04,846
uh, and I think that's a good thing, because it's, it's

637
00:25:04,996 --> 00:25:05,506
a good thing.

638
00:25:05,556 --> 00:25:08,851
Well, it's, it's, it's gonna, it's gonna be absolutely essential because When you

639
00:25:08,851 --> 00:25:12,301
think of AI and all the power that these people are going to have to just bomb

640
00:25:12,301 --> 00:25:15,681
you with this stuff, you know, and you're going to have to be able to fight back.

641
00:25:16,186 --> 00:25:19,136
and they're not Nigerian princes anymore, they're, they're your

642
00:25:19,136 --> 00:25:20,426
mother, or you're, you're,

643
00:25:20,441 --> 00:25:21,431
these are sophisticated.

644
00:25:21,491 --> 00:25:23,011
These are sophisticated people.

645
00:25:23,281 --> 00:25:25,181
I mean, I, somebody told me about the algorithms they have for

646
00:25:25,181 --> 00:25:26,921
cracking passwords and I was stunned.

647
00:25:27,661 --> 00:25:30,561
I mean, you know, they get a couple of your passwords and cause then they know

648
00:25:30,561 --> 00:25:33,671
the pattern and that's, yeah, scary stuff.

649
00:25:33,721 --> 00:25:35,251
everyone should use a password

650
00:25:35,251 --> 00:25:38,841
manager, basically, is the advice I give is use a password manager

651
00:25:38,841 --> 00:25:43,121
and generate a new password with every single site that you use.

652
00:25:43,121 --> 00:25:44,071
Don't reuse passwords.

653
00:25:44,081 --> 00:25:44,241
Does

654
00:25:44,531 --> 00:25:48,591
that include Google's built in password manager in Chrome?

655
00:25:49,151 --> 00:25:51,001
No, use something that's not that.

656
00:25:51,186 --> 00:25:51,816
Are you familiar?

657
00:25:51,816 --> 00:25:53,346
Are you familiar with One Pass and do you have a

658
00:25:53,346 --> 00:25:53,586
Yeah.

659
00:25:53,586 --> 00:25:53,886
Yeah.

660
00:25:53,946 --> 00:25:56,136
Uh, one, one pass bit warden.

661
00:25:56,256 --> 00:25:56,946
the one I use.

662
00:25:56,946 --> 00:25:57,306
Yeah.

663
00:25:57,756 --> 00:25:57,996
yep.

664
00:25:57,996 --> 00:25:58,626
All good stuff.

665
00:25:58,626 --> 00:25:59,196
All good stuff.

666
00:25:59,196 --> 00:26:01,116
Last pass is the one that's had the most issues.

667
00:26:01,116 --> 00:26:02,616
Sorry to kind of throw them under the bus,

668
00:26:02,786 --> 00:26:05,306
one Pass seemed to be the best from one I the reviews I read.

669
00:26:05,366 --> 00:26:05,666
Yeah.

670
00:26:05,866 --> 00:26:08,656
Probably there's three or four that are like, pick pick one

671
00:26:08,656 --> 00:26:09,946
and, and, and, and you're set.

672
00:26:09,946 --> 00:26:10,756
So, yeah.

673
00:26:10,756 --> 00:26:10,758
Yeah, yeah.

674
00:26:11,356 --> 00:26:16,066
And this is all just to say that the summary is UB key, like a hardware key.

675
00:26:16,406 --> 00:26:19,606
And these safe words, that's the best you can do really.

676
00:26:19,606 --> 00:26:21,716
Plus, plus the sim swapping defense.

677
00:26:21,716 --> 00:26:24,146
I mean, you're putting up defenses, that's the point.

678
00:26:24,146 --> 00:26:26,706
And this is true for anyone in the space.

679
00:26:26,706 --> 00:26:27,576
Numbers go up, right?

680
00:26:27,606 --> 00:26:30,676
Everyone who's in the space eventually, right?

681
00:26:31,246 --> 00:26:31,696
Target.

682
00:26:31,746 --> 00:26:34,616
So, I mean, that's a little tricky to get your head around.

683
00:26:34,616 --> 00:26:35,446
Make it costly to attack you.

684
00:26:35,506 --> 00:26:36,486
That's right,

685
00:26:36,486 --> 00:26:37,026
that's right.

686
00:26:37,026 --> 00:26:39,016
That's how you defend yourself online,

687
00:26:39,261 --> 00:26:39,591
Yeah.

688
00:26:39,651 --> 00:26:39,821
Yeah.

689
00:26:39,821 --> 00:26:41,151
No, they're looking for easy marks.

690
00:26:41,151 --> 00:26:42,801
They don't want to mess with it if it's tough.

691
00:26:43,256 --> 00:26:44,106
And hopefully there wasn't

692
00:26:44,106 --> 00:26:45,566
anything permanent out of this.

693
00:26:45,566 --> 00:26:46,286
I mean, if there was,

694
00:26:46,331 --> 00:26:47,111
they were just, yeah.

695
00:26:47,111 --> 00:26:50,061
I mean, I, at some point I thought they were going to try and mine my,

696
00:26:50,151 --> 00:26:54,061
you know, my email and find something and you know, yeah, no, I, it's look,

697
00:26:54,061 --> 00:26:56,961
when I was actually quite relieved when all I realized is they were

698
00:26:56,961 --> 00:27:02,081
trying to get shit coiners to, you know, steal their shit coins, you

699
00:27:02,081 --> 00:27:03,321
know, it's like, okay, yeah, fine.

700
00:27:03,361 --> 00:27:03,941
I mean, I get it.

701
00:27:04,161 --> 00:27:05,201
I know why you did that, but.

702
00:27:05,776 --> 00:27:08,806
Um, cause, cause yeah, they could have, I don't know, you know, I've got

703
00:27:09,096 --> 00:27:12,996
20 years, 10 years of email in that file and they could, you know, AI that

704
00:27:12,996 --> 00:27:15,126
and, and that would be scary, right?

705
00:27:15,231 --> 00:27:16,621
So how long was this incident?

706
00:27:16,741 --> 00:27:17,661
How long was the

707
00:27:17,836 --> 00:27:20,496
so, um, it, it, yeah, I'll tell you exactly what it's cause I, it's

708
00:27:20,496 --> 00:27:22,826
Saturday morning, I'm out running errands and it happened while

709
00:27:22,826 --> 00:27:24,006
I'm in my car running errands.

710
00:27:24,006 --> 00:27:26,476
I had to pull over to the car to kind of deal with all this shit cause I

711
00:27:26,476 --> 00:27:27,356
keep getting the SIMs from up there.

712
00:27:27,356 --> 00:27:28,086
I'm like, hang on a second.

713
00:27:28,416 --> 00:27:29,296
I got to focus on this.

714
00:27:29,806 --> 00:27:31,656
Um, I lost the email.

715
00:27:31,656 --> 00:27:33,466
I wasn't, my daughter wasn't able to get me to the right

716
00:27:33,466 --> 00:27:35,016
person at Google until Sunday.

717
00:27:35,016 --> 00:27:39,141
I'm So, so I lost the email and I lost the Twitter and I mean quickly.

718
00:27:39,391 --> 00:27:41,761
I went home, immediately tried to log in, email couldn't get in.

719
00:27:42,231 --> 00:27:44,131
Went home, Twitter account couldn't get in.

720
00:27:44,271 --> 00:27:46,981
I was like, uh oh, you know, I've been, I've been attacked.

721
00:27:47,471 --> 00:27:52,261
Um, took me a day to recover Google and I don't think the average human

722
00:27:52,261 --> 00:27:53,521
would be able to get it back in a day.

723
00:27:54,061 --> 00:27:57,421
Um, I think I was lucky because my daughter works there and she got me

724
00:27:57,421 --> 00:27:58,761
to the right place really quickly.

725
00:27:59,291 --> 00:28:01,601
Um, and the Twitter was over a week.

726
00:28:01,741 --> 00:28:05,331
Uh, and involved, you know, getting some security experts involved

727
00:28:05,331 --> 00:28:08,601
and I, I had to tip them a little bit of money to spend time on it.

728
00:28:08,601 --> 00:28:09,221
And that was fine.

729
00:28:09,221 --> 00:28:12,191
I didn't mind doing that because they were working to do, to get me my account

730
00:28:12,191 --> 00:28:13,471
back and I wanted my account back.

731
00:28:13,471 --> 00:28:13,741
So

732
00:28:14,721 --> 00:28:16,001
Have you heard of Start9?

733
00:28:16,551 --> 00:28:18,051
I, I have, yeah, I run my own node.

734
00:28:18,061 --> 00:28:19,871
I've got a start nine node that I run.

735
00:28:19,971 --> 00:28:20,581
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

736
00:28:20,751 --> 00:28:21,741
Awesome, awesome.

737
00:28:22,261 --> 00:28:25,341
Yeah, so that's, we've been looking into that a lot lately.

738
00:28:25,341 --> 00:28:28,061
And, uh, like, it's a fantastic idea.

739
00:28:28,131 --> 00:28:30,351
And it seems like a fantastic product, all of them.

740
00:28:30,401 --> 00:28:30,651
Like,

741
00:28:30,711 --> 00:28:32,551
no, that's a really good company with good products.

742
00:28:32,551 --> 00:28:32,851
Yeah.

743
00:28:33,081 --> 00:28:38,964
so it's basically de cloudifying computing and like, make you,

744
00:28:39,049 --> 00:28:39,349
Correct.

745
00:28:39,349 --> 00:28:43,739
I mean, I have great hopes for things like this and Nostr and,

746
00:28:43,779 --> 00:28:44,809
you know, all of these things.

747
00:28:44,879 --> 00:28:48,539
And I know people who are going, getting out of Gmail and going

748
00:28:48,539 --> 00:28:51,429
to more decentralized mail servers and so on and so forth.

749
00:28:51,429 --> 00:28:54,629
I mean, my problem is I'm not technological.

750
00:28:55,099 --> 00:28:58,139
And so, so I'm, you know, without, and I, and I don't want to spend, I

751
00:28:58,139 --> 00:29:02,169
don't want to have a full time techie on my payroll to do all of this.

752
00:29:02,209 --> 00:29:04,809
And so it's not simple as, as, you know, as you know.

753
00:29:05,694 --> 00:29:08,674
but there's, there's always going to be trade offs between convenience

754
00:29:08,674 --> 00:29:12,679
and, and, uh, responsibility and safety, like, What's that?

755
00:29:13,139 --> 00:29:14,839
Was that a Benjamin Franklin quote?

756
00:29:14,869 --> 00:29:18,109
Like any, any society that would give up a little security to gain

757
00:29:18,189 --> 00:29:22,079
a little, or a little freedom to gain a little security will

758
00:29:23,019 --> 00:29:24,949
deserve neither and lose both or something?

759
00:29:25,619 --> 00:29:28,609
Well, genuinely in cyber security, it's, it's the trade off between

760
00:29:28,609 --> 00:29:29,809
security and convenience.

761
00:29:29,809 --> 00:29:33,919
Every single piece of cyber security is an inconvenience and everyone knows it.

762
00:29:33,939 --> 00:29:36,939
I mean, no one is thrilled that they have to have a certain

763
00:29:36,939 --> 00:29:39,409
strength password or that they had to do this and that with their.

764
00:29:39,719 --> 00:29:43,079
With their IT system and all this, and Bitcoiners, I think we have to

765
00:29:43,079 --> 00:29:46,719
do that a little bit extra later because there's the responsibility,

766
00:29:46,719 --> 00:29:48,119
the self custody, all this, right?

767
00:29:48,389 --> 00:29:52,879
But no, no, no, it's entirely exactly this, and I mean, um,

768
00:29:52,889 --> 00:29:55,529
yeah, it's unfortunate that we're in that situation, but, uh,

769
00:29:55,539 --> 00:29:57,219
as you say, it'll only get worse, but

770
00:29:57,279 --> 00:30:01,289
as long as bad actors exist, but maybe Bitcoin can help fix the incentives,

771
00:30:01,629 --> 00:30:02,319
well, that's right.

772
00:30:02,599 --> 00:30:03,689
A little bit of preparation.

773
00:30:04,309 --> 00:30:06,549
Yeah, I think one of the more beautiful things is this.

774
00:30:07,004 --> 00:30:11,434
The 12 words, the 12 magic words, because it's so simple, it gives

775
00:30:11,434 --> 00:30:15,564
you the same level of complexity, but through such simple means.

776
00:30:15,739 --> 00:30:19,289
and there's, and there's a certain beauty to, you know, writing them down analog,

777
00:30:19,454 --> 00:30:21,974
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's something special about all of

778
00:30:22,229 --> 00:30:22,939
on my computer.

779
00:30:22,939 --> 00:30:26,949
You know, there's nowhere digital that those words exist.

780
00:30:27,524 --> 00:30:31,924
yeah, and people say Bitcoin is too hard, but like, how hard is writing down

781
00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:36,529
Yeah, that, that, yeah, BIP39, BIP39 was an enormously important

782
00:30:36,969 --> 00:30:39,029
development in self custody world.

783
00:30:39,729 --> 00:30:43,049
Yeah, so, I mean, the notion that you can get on an airplane, go anywhere in

784
00:30:43,049 --> 00:30:47,389
the world, you know, have a BIP39 device and re establish control of your coins

785
00:30:47,389 --> 00:30:48,949
with 12 words, that's just so powerful.

786
00:30:49,616 --> 00:30:53,586
So, so having, having talked a lot about these complexities and these

787
00:30:53,586 --> 00:30:57,466
trade offs, uh, the, the follow up, the natural follow up question is,

788
00:30:57,696 --> 00:31:00,226
is gold just Bitcoin for boomers?

789
00:31:00,796 --> 00:31:01,316
pretty much.

790
00:31:02,236 --> 00:31:02,846
Yeah, pretty much.

791
00:31:02,876 --> 00:31:05,136
I mean, it's, you know, it's not useless.

792
00:31:05,176 --> 00:31:09,236
Um, and gold people shouldn't, Bitcoiners should not, I mean, you know, we

793
00:31:09,236 --> 00:31:10,476
just saw Michael, so I love Michael.

794
00:31:10,486 --> 00:31:12,046
So I love absolutely everything about him.

795
00:31:12,381 --> 00:31:15,251
The only thing the entire time I've known him and seen him operate

796
00:31:15,511 --> 00:31:18,321
that I, I disagreed with him on was when he said gold was the enemy

797
00:31:18,841 --> 00:31:20,881
because I, I, and I'll tell you why.

798
00:31:21,301 --> 00:31:27,751
Um, it offended gold people and he, his goal should be to convert gold people

799
00:31:27,751 --> 00:31:31,881
to Bitcoiners, you know, and, and so he shouldn't view them as the enemy.

800
00:31:31,881 --> 00:31:35,591
In fact, in many ways, they're an ally because they're anti fiat already.

801
00:31:35,591 --> 00:31:37,631
If you own gold, you're anti fiat by definition.

802
00:31:37,631 --> 00:31:38,231
You got there.

803
00:31:38,591 --> 00:31:41,351
The odds are very good that you got there because you're an Austrian economist,

804
00:31:41,351 --> 00:31:42,891
you understand monetary debasement.

805
00:31:43,421 --> 00:31:47,531
And actually, I view my role in this whole development, um, I mean,

806
00:31:47,531 --> 00:31:49,961
I was in gold, just a background for people who don't know who I

807
00:31:49,961 --> 00:31:50,801
am, I've listened to this before.

808
00:31:51,091 --> 00:31:54,361
I've been in the gold investment since, you know, the 1990s, okay?

809
00:31:54,691 --> 00:31:58,431
Um, I was buying gold in 2000, 2001, and before Bitcoin ever existed,

810
00:31:58,431 --> 00:31:59,881
I was a sound money gold guy.

811
00:32:00,241 --> 00:32:03,001
And by the way, before Bitcoin ever existed, it was your best

812
00:32:03,001 --> 00:32:04,481
monetary debasement protection.

813
00:32:04,851 --> 00:32:07,701
You know, it's, it's now second best by quite a measure, but

814
00:32:07,921 --> 00:32:09,081
at the time it was your best.

815
00:32:09,081 --> 00:32:09,121
It

816
00:32:09,146 --> 00:32:10,186
So there is a second best.

817
00:32:10,321 --> 00:32:13,361
yeah, there is, there is, I mean, it's not even close, he's right.

818
00:32:13,361 --> 00:32:16,751
It's not close in terms of performance, but if I had, you know, if somebody

819
00:32:16,761 --> 00:32:20,791
said to me, I want to own sound money that's not Bitcoin, what would you buy?

820
00:32:20,821 --> 00:32:23,701
I'd probably say in this order, I'd probably say silver and gold.

821
00:32:23,911 --> 00:32:26,441
I mean, silver is so deeply undervalued and that's a whole nother story.

822
00:32:26,441 --> 00:32:28,481
But, but the point is that.

823
00:32:29,041 --> 00:32:32,871
gold is analog sound money and has been for 5, 000 years, and

824
00:32:32,871 --> 00:32:35,011
Bitcoin is digital sound money, and Bitcoin's going to eat gold.

825
00:32:35,316 --> 00:32:39,046
You know, all of gold's premiums someday, but not tomorrow.

826
00:32:39,286 --> 00:32:41,346
That's the, and that's an important thing for people to understand.

827
00:32:41,356 --> 00:32:44,676
The notion that the price of gold is going to actually go down, while the

828
00:32:44,676 --> 00:32:46,286
price of gold or Bitcoin is going up.

829
00:32:46,596 --> 00:32:47,256
I don't think that's true.

830
00:32:47,256 --> 00:32:49,476
I think nominally the price of gold will continue to go up.

831
00:32:49,816 --> 00:32:53,366
There are 8 billion people and a lot of them aren't ready to accept Bitcoin.

832
00:32:53,816 --> 00:32:58,486
And so for them, gold represents the second best form of sound money.

833
00:32:58,486 --> 00:33:01,156
It has gone up at 7 or 8 percent a year, compounded.

834
00:33:01,586 --> 00:33:04,436
And it does represent something the government can't debase and print.

835
00:33:05,051 --> 00:33:08,661
So, um, you know, it's very inferior to Bitcoin.

836
00:33:08,661 --> 00:33:09,921
I mean, I agree with that.

837
00:33:09,951 --> 00:33:14,971
I don't, you know, and, and over time, my gold holdings will become a small

838
00:33:14,971 --> 00:33:16,501
fraction of the value of my Bitcoin.

839
00:33:16,921 --> 00:33:19,771
That's already happened in a large part because my Bitcoin's gone up so much.

840
00:33:20,306 --> 00:33:22,756
And today, I do not buy any more gold.

841
00:33:23,116 --> 00:33:24,706
In fact, I have sold some gold.

842
00:33:24,926 --> 00:33:30,646
But, but I, but I, but I keep some, because what it represents is, um,

843
00:33:31,086 --> 00:33:35,416
money that can't be debased, that doesn't have the volatility of Bitcoin.

844
00:33:36,156 --> 00:33:39,006
And the thing I would ask people to consider and remember, is that,

845
00:33:39,006 --> 00:33:40,226
let's say you're 70 years old.

846
00:33:41,016 --> 00:33:43,616
And let's say you're trying to figure out where to put 10 million in savings.

847
00:33:43,886 --> 00:33:44,206
Okay?

848
00:33:45,171 --> 00:33:48,101
You know, I mean, Saylor would say, take the whole 10 million and put it

849
00:33:48,101 --> 00:33:49,731
in Bitcoin and don't worry about it.

850
00:33:50,031 --> 00:33:50,921
You know, you're gonna be fine.

851
00:33:51,301 --> 00:33:51,851
Okay, fine.

852
00:33:51,851 --> 00:33:52,691
But, but you're 70.

853
00:33:52,691 --> 00:33:54,221
You might die when you're an 80.

854
00:33:54,321 --> 00:33:55,541
And borrow another 10 and

855
00:33:55,601 --> 00:33:57,711
Yeah, borrow another 10 investment.

856
00:33:57,711 --> 00:33:59,851
And, and, and, and by the way, in the next 10 years, you

857
00:33:59,851 --> 00:34:01,121
might need some of it, right?

858
00:34:01,581 --> 00:34:03,991
And as we all know, there are times when Bitcoin has gone

859
00:34:03,991 --> 00:34:06,161
down 50 percent or more, right?

860
00:34:06,401 --> 00:34:08,991
So if you put the whole 10, if you got the timing wrong on Bitcoin, you put

861
00:34:08,991 --> 00:34:13,186
the whole 10 in Bitcoin and it went down 50%, You wouldn't be feeling so great.

862
00:34:13,376 --> 00:34:16,856
And so, you know, again, and that has to do with your age.

863
00:34:16,856 --> 00:34:19,376
I mean, if you're 20, you know, you put it all in Bitcoin, you don't care.

864
00:34:19,506 --> 00:34:20,786
Because you got a very long time for it.

865
00:34:20,786 --> 00:34:22,296
You got a very long life left.

866
00:34:22,686 --> 00:34:25,456
But gold has never really drawn down more than 24 percent a year.

867
00:34:25,686 --> 00:34:27,866
And in that year, it recovered pretty quickly the next year.

868
00:34:27,866 --> 00:34:32,416
So, so gold is, it doesn't go up as fast, but it also doesn't go down.

869
00:34:33,346 --> 00:34:37,676
And, and so, You know, for wealth preservation and, and fiat in

870
00:34:37,676 --> 00:34:41,396
gold terms, and fiat in Bitcoin terms is always going down.

871
00:34:41,906 --> 00:34:45,776
So if you're 70 and you've got 10 million of savings and you're, I mean, let's,

872
00:34:45,806 --> 00:34:47,126
we're leaving stocks out for a minute.

873
00:34:47,126 --> 00:34:49,466
You're looking to put it in something that represents quote unquote money.

874
00:34:49,986 --> 00:34:52,416
You know, your choices are silver, gold, and Bitcoin.

875
00:34:53,216 --> 00:34:55,286
I can see there's an argument to hold some silver and some gold.

876
00:34:55,526 --> 00:34:56,426
I mean, there really is.

877
00:34:56,821 --> 00:35:02,201
So, so doesn't that make, uh, you know, is gold to Bitcoin, what

878
00:35:02,201 --> 00:35:04,481
silver is to gold in that sense then?

879
00:35:04,816 --> 00:35:05,326
a little bit.

880
00:35:05,591 --> 00:35:06,071
A little bit.

881
00:35:06,584 --> 00:35:10,304
you know, silver is a unique case, and here's why.

882
00:35:11,014 --> 00:35:13,134
Silver is a monetary metal, right?

883
00:35:13,174 --> 00:35:14,964
It's been money for a long, long time.

884
00:35:15,694 --> 00:35:17,774
Um, but it's actually also an industrial metal.

885
00:35:18,534 --> 00:35:22,094
And, um, and we don't have a big stockpile of silver in the world.

886
00:35:22,114 --> 00:35:26,684
We, we have two hundred and some odd thousand tons of gold in the world.

887
00:35:26,684 --> 00:35:28,634
All the gold that's ever been mined, we either have it, it's

888
00:35:28,634 --> 00:35:32,144
around a woman's neck, it's in a vault, or it's in the form of coins.

889
00:35:32,504 --> 00:35:34,394
Okay, or it's at the bottom of the ocean if the boat sank.

890
00:35:34,784 --> 00:35:36,454
Right, that's where all the gold is.

891
00:35:36,864 --> 00:35:39,394
Um, and so, if we need gold, you can always find it.

892
00:35:39,424 --> 00:35:40,164
It's available.

893
00:35:40,574 --> 00:35:45,014
Silver is a, you know, you eat it, it gets used as we produce it.

894
00:35:45,024 --> 00:35:47,564
We produce about 900 million ounces of silver a year.

895
00:35:47,644 --> 00:35:50,034
We use over 900 million ounces of silver a year.

896
00:35:50,334 --> 00:35:53,504
And we melt down silverware and, you know, we recover it

897
00:35:53,514 --> 00:35:54,944
sometimes from old technology.

898
00:35:55,254 --> 00:35:57,764
You know, they're people who grind up computers to get the

899
00:35:57,764 --> 00:35:59,314
silver on the circuit boards.

900
00:35:59,814 --> 00:36:04,044
So, um, because of that, if there's ever a big increase in demand for

901
00:36:04,044 --> 00:36:07,124
silver, we've got 900 million ounces coming out of the ground every year.

902
00:36:07,124 --> 00:36:07,524
That's it.

903
00:36:08,264 --> 00:36:08,594
That's it.

904
00:36:08,604 --> 00:36:11,674
And that's why it's very, the prices can be very spiky.

905
00:36:11,684 --> 00:36:14,144
It's like that marginal barrel of oil.

906
00:36:14,154 --> 00:36:17,944
You know, as they say, you know, the oil market, 3 percent change in demand

907
00:36:17,944 --> 00:36:20,244
in the oil market can send oil up 40%.

908
00:36:20,644 --> 00:36:22,904
Because right at the margin, you really need that oil.

909
00:36:22,904 --> 00:36:25,684
I mean, you got to run those boats You need the goddamn oil.

910
00:36:25,684 --> 00:36:26,604
The same is true with silver.

911
00:36:26,954 --> 00:36:29,574
And one of the interesting things about silver is that,

912
00:36:29,634 --> 00:36:31,804
um, the uses are really growing.

913
00:36:32,174 --> 00:36:35,504
It's used heavily in solar, and as we all know, solar is a big part of, you

914
00:36:35,504 --> 00:36:36,834
know, ESG and where we're going there.

915
00:36:37,154 --> 00:36:39,244
And you can debate whether that's a good thing or a bad thing in terms of,

916
00:36:39,294 --> 00:36:42,314
you know, it's a cost efficiency, but The fact of the matter is we're doing

917
00:36:42,314 --> 00:36:48,514
it and the projections that we look at show that within five years China,

918
00:36:48,524 --> 00:36:51,724
which now consumes maybe 20, a little under 20 percent of all the silver

919
00:36:51,724 --> 00:36:55,554
produced in the world, will produce, will consume over 55 percent of the

920
00:36:55,554 --> 00:36:56,934
silver produced in the world for solar.

921
00:36:57,494 --> 00:36:59,304
So there's a, yeah, so there's a growing demand case.

922
00:36:59,944 --> 00:37:03,514
So, you know, when you look at silver, it's a little hard, you know, to say

923
00:37:03,514 --> 00:37:05,444
is this a, is this a monetary metal?

924
00:37:05,859 --> 00:37:09,739
Or is this, I mean, you know, what it represents, um, other than, well copper,

925
00:37:09,999 --> 00:37:14,429
it's better conductivity, conductivity than copper, but it's more expensive.

926
00:37:14,829 --> 00:37:17,699
But, but in terms of, at a certain level of conductivity, it's the

927
00:37:17,699 --> 00:37:19,959
most efficient metal for its price.

928
00:37:20,499 --> 00:37:24,269
And so it's really needed in certain circuitry, certain

929
00:37:24,269 --> 00:37:27,169
electrical cars, solar panels, etc.

930
00:37:27,249 --> 00:37:28,919
So, silver is a special case

931
00:37:29,515 --> 00:37:32,915
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949
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950
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951
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952
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953
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956
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957
00:38:39,435 --> 00:38:43,175
Yeah, so, so speaking of, uh, you know, cost at the margin and everything in

958
00:38:43,175 --> 00:38:48,055
oil, uh, there was this thing during when that boat got stuck in the,

959
00:38:48,355 --> 00:38:52,755
in the Suez canal and during COVID and, uh, or during the lockdowns.

960
00:38:53,095 --> 00:38:58,055
And there was a point where the, they had to sell oil at a negative price.

961
00:38:58,105 --> 00:38:58,615
You remember

962
00:38:58,890 --> 00:39:01,180
Yeah, I remember, I remember it extremely well.

963
00:39:01,725 --> 00:39:05,045
And that was because they didn't have anywhere to store it.

964
00:39:05,265 --> 00:39:06,035
no, exactly.

965
00:39:06,215 --> 00:39:09,555
It was cheaper for them to sell it at a negative price

966
00:39:09,705 --> 00:39:09,955
Right.

967
00:39:09,955 --> 00:39:10,915
They had a real problem.

968
00:39:11,015 --> 00:39:11,375
Yeah.

969
00:39:11,645 --> 00:39:15,775
so Could that happen on a Bitcoin standard in your view?

970
00:39:16,145 --> 00:39:17,255
That's a great question.

971
00:39:17,955 --> 00:39:19,405
I'm not sure I know how to answer that.

972
00:39:19,585 --> 00:39:20,435
I'm not sure I'm right.

973
00:39:20,455 --> 00:39:21,115
I don't,

974
00:39:21,955 --> 00:39:25,055
It just struck me, so I haven't thought it through myself either,

975
00:39:25,285 --> 00:39:27,555
I'd have to take a while to get my head around that.

976
00:39:27,555 --> 00:39:28,135
I don't know.

977
00:39:28,135 --> 00:39:30,445
I suppose, I suppose it could.

978
00:39:30,455 --> 00:39:32,605
Because I think that's a thing specific.

979
00:39:32,605 --> 00:39:36,195
I mean, the reason there was a negative price is that people were literally paying

980
00:39:36,195 --> 00:39:40,645
somebody To say, I don't, even though I've committed to buy this oil from you,

981
00:39:40,915 --> 00:39:45,915
I can't take it, I don't want it, so I, you know, I will, I will pay you more

982
00:39:45,915 --> 00:39:49,795
money to not give it to me, even though I've paid you to give it to me, right?

983
00:39:49,975 --> 00:39:51,575
I think that's what the negative price was.

984
00:39:51,575 --> 00:39:54,545
So, I think that could happen on fiat, bitcoin, I don't think it,

985
00:39:54,925 --> 00:39:56,650
so the monetary standard matters.

986
00:39:57,020 --> 00:40:00,840
I think it was a storage supply demand problem, you know, where somebody was

987
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,810
going to get some oil that they had nowhere to put and they weren't going

988
00:40:02,810 --> 00:40:03,900
to be able to pour it in the ocean.

989
00:40:04,055 --> 00:40:10,645
the thing I doubt about that is if the Demand would ever be high enough for that

990
00:40:10,645 --> 00:40:12,775
to happen if you had totally some money

991
00:40:13,290 --> 00:40:13,930
Fair enough.

992
00:40:13,945 --> 00:40:17,535
Because, like, you're incentivized to save it rather than spend it all,

993
00:40:17,585 --> 00:40:19,545
so maybe it's self correct somehow.

994
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:25,700
and, and what I think caused that to occur was the big COVID shock

995
00:40:26,345 --> 00:40:27,175
Lockdown shock.

996
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:33,190
yeah, and the lockdown shock, right, that, you know, um, was really, I

997
00:40:33,310 --> 00:40:35,230
mean, rocked the monetary system.

998
00:40:35,230 --> 00:40:35,280
Yeah.

999
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:35,300
Yeah.

1000
00:40:35,950 --> 00:40:40,060
And, um, you know, I, I think if we'd been on a Bitcoin standard,

1001
00:40:40,070 --> 00:40:43,290
the monetary system would not have gotten rocked in the same fashion.

1002
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,900
Because, I mean, what happened there is, as you'll recall, the central

1003
00:40:46,900 --> 00:40:49,900
banks had to just open the floodgates and pour money into the system.

1004
00:40:51,045 --> 00:40:54,635
But not only that, I mean, the politicians themselves wouldn't have

1005
00:40:54,635 --> 00:40:56,815
that much power to begin with to do.

1006
00:40:57,180 --> 00:40:57,860
well, there's that

1007
00:40:58,125 --> 00:40:59,115
Yeah, yeah, so there's a

1008
00:40:59,120 --> 00:40:59,780
there's that too.

1009
00:41:00,195 --> 00:41:02,635
of effects that would stop this from, yeah,

1010
00:41:02,894 --> 00:41:04,734
yeah, it's a fun thing to think about.

1011
00:41:04,864 --> 00:41:05,964
It is interesting to think about.

1012
00:41:05,964 --> 00:41:08,244
I mean, you know, we were talking about it at dinner last night.

1013
00:41:08,294 --> 00:41:13,204
I mean, the way that the world will be, I think very few people, even

1014
00:41:13,204 --> 00:41:17,174
probably us, don't really, can't really fully understand how much

1015
00:41:17,184 --> 00:41:19,814
better and different the world will be on a full Bitcoin standard.

1016
00:41:19,814 --> 00:41:22,694
But I'm pretty sure it's going to be a whole lot better and different.

1017
00:41:22,734 --> 00:41:27,114
I mean, you know, and I map it to kind of some things I remember in my lifetime.

1018
00:41:27,114 --> 00:41:30,034
When I started out, the IBM PC had just come out in 1980.

1019
00:41:30,034 --> 00:41:31,484
That was my, I started my career.

1020
00:41:32,009 --> 00:41:33,499
And so that was, you know, what is it now?

1021
00:41:33,499 --> 00:41:35,599
Um, you know, 40 odd years ago.

1022
00:41:35,649 --> 00:41:41,269
And, um, and you know, if somebody had told me what PCs would be doing today and

1023
00:41:41,269 --> 00:41:44,249
what we'd have today in terms of, I just said, that's, that's science fiction.

1024
00:41:44,299 --> 00:41:45,059
There's just no way.

1025
00:41:45,179 --> 00:41:50,439
No, is it James Bond's wet dream of 20 years ago or 30 years ago was just a smart

1026
00:41:50,679 --> 00:41:51,079
Yeah.

1027
00:41:51,089 --> 00:41:51,419
Right.

1028
00:41:51,419 --> 00:41:54,339
I mean, it's just like, I can't believe that that could all be possible.

1029
00:41:54,339 --> 00:41:56,899
And yet that's what the microprocessor brought us.

1030
00:41:57,269 --> 00:42:01,209
And, and I think that the Bitcoin standard for the money, the monetary system, which

1031
00:42:01,209 --> 00:42:06,054
has been broken for thousands of years, I think it's going to be a similar change

1032
00:42:06,294 --> 00:42:10,134
and none of us can really fully understand how much better and different it'll be.

1033
00:42:10,134 --> 00:42:11,694
But I'm pretty sure it's going to be better and different.

1034
00:42:11,899 --> 00:42:16,869
I totally agree, and we had a brief conversation with Michael Saylor about

1035
00:42:16,869 --> 00:42:21,679
this yesterday, and Jeff's been talking about it a lot, like that the money

1036
00:42:21,679 --> 00:42:27,189
is poisoned, like it has an amount of poison in it, which alters the way,

1037
00:42:27,219 --> 00:42:30,129
like, all of human history is wrong.

1038
00:42:30,139 --> 00:42:33,719
It's written by the winners, and not necessarily winners who won

1039
00:42:33,729 --> 00:42:36,599
because they produced the money.

1040
00:42:37,109 --> 00:42:44,369
Things of value to their fellow men, but they, all of history is, is false.

1041
00:42:44,409 --> 00:42:47,929
Like it's full of lies because, because the money itself has

1042
00:42:47,959 --> 00:42:49,879
this layer of lies built into it.

1043
00:42:50,319 --> 00:42:53,179
And if you remove all that and you, all you have is truth

1044
00:42:53,219 --> 00:42:54,369
and all you have is sound.

1045
00:42:55,294 --> 00:42:56,124
Truly sound money.

1046
00:42:56,154 --> 00:42:57,834
Like we have no idea what that will

1047
00:42:58,064 --> 00:43:01,944
what it did was it allowed the wrong people to get in charge.

1048
00:43:02,034 --> 00:43:02,624
Exactly.

1049
00:43:02,674 --> 00:43:07,374
Because, you know, let's face it, great wealth gives you the ability

1050
00:43:07,394 --> 00:43:10,799
to control governments, to make, to set rules, to You know, to take

1051
00:43:10,799 --> 00:43:12,449
advantage of people, blah, blah, blah.

1052
00:43:12,949 --> 00:43:17,789
And, um, when the money is broken, evil people by definition will figure out

1053
00:43:17,799 --> 00:43:23,659
how to use that to their own advantage and then become, you know, dominant

1054
00:43:23,759 --> 00:43:26,909
and, and take advantage of those who have less power and less money.

1055
00:43:27,494 --> 00:43:29,774
And so that's, that's the story of human history, right?

1056
00:43:29,804 --> 00:43:32,184
I mean, and, you know, warfare, all of it.

1057
00:43:32,564 --> 00:43:36,474
So, um, you know, I'm not saying, you know, Bitcoin ends war, but

1058
00:43:36,474 --> 00:43:39,374
it might, you know, it might.

1059
00:43:39,994 --> 00:43:42,559
It's within the realm of possibility, I think.

1060
00:43:42,559 --> 00:43:44,384
I mean, what would the incentive to be?

1061
00:43:44,424 --> 00:43:45,764
What would the incentive be for anybody?

1062
00:43:45,814 --> 00:43:46,434
yeah, no, no,

1063
00:43:46,664 --> 00:43:47,634
there would be no incentives.

1064
00:43:47,704 --> 00:43:47,924
no.

1065
00:43:47,924 --> 00:43:52,464
If you, if you can't know how much another person owns, which is true now

1066
00:43:52,524 --> 00:43:56,134
for everyone on earth, because they might have Bitcoin in their heads.

1067
00:43:56,434 --> 00:43:59,534
And if you can't very easily take it by force, because you don't even

1068
00:43:59,534 --> 00:44:02,974
know if they have it, and you don't know if, even if you manage to take

1069
00:44:02,994 --> 00:44:06,749
a part of it, you don't know how much of it Like they can still have more.

1070
00:44:06,804 --> 00:44:08,574
I mean, and let's take the most recent example.

1071
00:44:08,574 --> 00:44:11,914
I mean, you know, okay, so Russia invades Ukraine, something we don't like.

1072
00:44:12,194 --> 00:44:12,554
And the U.

1073
00:44:12,554 --> 00:44:12,674
S.

1074
00:44:12,674 --> 00:44:13,604
says, guess what?

1075
00:44:13,604 --> 00:44:16,304
Those 600 billion of assets, you know, that are, that are in the

1076
00:44:16,304 --> 00:44:17,414
Western system, they're ours.

1077
00:44:17,544 --> 00:44:18,074
We're grabbing them.

1078
00:44:18,784 --> 00:44:19,134
You know what I mean?

1079
00:44:19,184 --> 00:44:21,754
And, and, and now they're going to give them to the Ukrainians, you

1080
00:44:21,754 --> 00:44:22,884
know, give the money to Ukrainians.

1081
00:44:23,634 --> 00:44:26,404
I mean, look, I'm not endorsing Russia invading Ukraine.

1082
00:44:26,424 --> 00:44:28,174
I mean, that's a whole different issue and story.

1083
00:44:28,174 --> 00:44:29,734
A lot of the two sides of that as well.

1084
00:44:29,734 --> 00:44:33,334
But, but the point is that, you know, when you've got a system where, you

1085
00:44:33,334 --> 00:44:37,944
know, you can, you can see powerful actors just Stealing, literally stealing

1086
00:44:37,944 --> 00:44:40,124
money from other powerful actors.

1087
00:44:40,134 --> 00:44:41,844
You know, that's like, what's this all about?

1088
00:44:41,884 --> 00:44:42,484
This isn't right.

1089
00:44:42,579 --> 00:44:47,869
No, no, but given a long enough time frame They won't be able to because because of

1090
00:44:47,869 --> 00:44:52,569
that that you know If you don't know how much another person owns and if you can't

1091
00:44:52,579 --> 00:44:58,664
take it by force It's more profitable to you, uh, to give them something in return

1092
00:44:58,674 --> 00:45:01,024
instead of trying to take stuff by force.

1093
00:45:01,274 --> 00:45:04,504
So it removes the shelling point of violence, like, and that's,

1094
00:45:04,584 --> 00:45:05,814
that, that's exactly right.

1095
00:45:05,834 --> 00:45:06,924
That's, that's the point I'm making.

1096
00:45:06,924 --> 00:45:10,274
And that's why, yeah, one could dream and envision that there might be

1097
00:45:10,314 --> 00:45:12,664
kind of much fewer, much less war.

1098
00:45:12,664 --> 00:45:14,394
I mean, probably still be criminal activity.

1099
00:45:14,394 --> 00:45:16,094
There'll probably still be gangs and so forth.

1100
00:45:16,114 --> 00:45:18,544
I mean, um, but you

1101
00:45:18,574 --> 00:45:21,904
But they would be less profitable, and that's the point, like, yeah, yeah.

1102
00:45:21,934 --> 00:45:25,824
Including if, if it's a highway robberman, a mafia, or a government,

1103
00:45:25,824 --> 00:45:27,394
or another criminal organization,

1104
00:45:27,464 --> 00:45:27,964
Right.

1105
00:45:28,024 --> 00:45:28,554
Yeah.

1106
00:45:29,169 --> 00:45:35,069
And I think that notion is one of the, you know, binding things that this group

1107
00:45:35,069 --> 00:45:38,899
of people have, like the, the, the, that's why we're passionate because

1108
00:45:38,929 --> 00:45:41,369
it's, it's really give peace a chance.

1109
00:45:41,399 --> 00:45:41,679
Right?

1110
00:45:41,901 --> 00:45:48,734
I mean, and a lot of, I think a lot of people in Bitcoin

1111
00:45:48,734 --> 00:45:50,134
have come at it that way.

1112
00:45:50,134 --> 00:45:51,974
I mean, it's some, they come for the number goes up.

1113
00:45:52,044 --> 00:45:52,834
I mean, let's face it.

1114
00:45:53,434 --> 00:45:55,434
Everybody's got a certain amount of greed and then nobody wants to

1115
00:45:55,434 --> 00:45:57,304
suffer economically and that's fine.

1116
00:45:57,304 --> 00:45:58,424
That's human nature.

1117
00:45:58,894 --> 00:46:01,464
But then once they really get enlightened into it, they really realize this

1118
00:46:01,464 --> 00:46:02,784
is much more than number goes up.

1119
00:46:03,014 --> 00:46:04,434
this is love go everywhere.

1120
00:46:05,584 --> 00:46:06,364
Exactly.

1121
00:46:06,364 --> 00:46:09,074
This is, this is, this is, you know, fairness.

1122
00:46:09,184 --> 00:46:12,674
It's just like, it's like, imagine if we had a fair world, you know, and

1123
00:46:12,674 --> 00:46:14,544
I'm not, again, you can't be naive.

1124
00:46:14,554 --> 00:46:16,484
I mean, there will always be bad, bad actors.

1125
00:46:16,714 --> 00:46:21,444
There are bad humans out there, but you know, if you, if you make it a lot harder

1126
00:46:21,444 --> 00:46:26,604
to do unfair things, you, you know, you incentivize everybody to do what's right.

1127
00:46:26,954 --> 00:46:28,604
And, you know, and that's a good thing.

1128
00:46:29,424 --> 00:46:34,014
Yeah, but that's also a thing, like, like, there's a good point to be made to be not

1129
00:46:34,074 --> 00:46:36,834
too over enthusiastic and over optimistic.

1130
00:46:37,124 --> 00:46:38,534
But as you say, nobody knows where

1131
00:46:38,634 --> 00:46:39,574
Well, that we don't know.

1132
00:46:40,254 --> 00:46:44,804
uh, the passion we have for this thing is real, it's totally real,

1133
00:46:44,834 --> 00:46:48,784
and, and like, the more of it we spread, like, the more other people

1134
00:46:48,794 --> 00:46:50,114
can see that we just live in a

1135
00:46:50,174 --> 00:46:53,464
and the thing is, it's just so damn intrinsically obvious.

1136
00:46:54,074 --> 00:46:54,604
Do you know what I mean?

1137
00:46:54,614 --> 00:46:55,794
To me that it's going to happen.

1138
00:46:55,824 --> 00:46:59,394
I mean, you know, it's, it's spreading, it's spreading like a virus.

1139
00:46:59,664 --> 00:47:03,734
I mean, that's what Michael's, you know, um, you know, speech was just about,

1140
00:47:04,094 --> 00:47:07,454
which is, you know, we've got to spread the word on this thing because the faster

1141
00:47:07,454 --> 00:47:10,714
this goes, the better and the sooner we'll get to, to where we want to be.

1142
00:47:10,714 --> 00:47:12,204
And, and it's interesting.

1143
00:47:12,204 --> 00:47:13,994
I'll, I'll bring up something and I'm going to talk about this

1144
00:47:13,994 --> 00:47:15,114
when I'm on my panel, but I.

1145
00:47:15,614 --> 00:47:18,164
Um, I think it's helpful because I'm one of the older guys in the space.

1146
00:47:19,164 --> 00:47:22,444
Um, I'll never forget, uh, in the 80s, I was a venture capitalist.

1147
00:47:22,444 --> 00:47:24,154
I was investing in technology companies.

1148
00:47:24,544 --> 00:47:26,954
You have to remember back then, technology companies were IBM.

1149
00:47:27,174 --> 00:47:27,724
Do you know what I mean?

1150
00:47:27,744 --> 00:47:31,784
And, and Prime and DEC and, I mean, you know, micro, mini computers.

1151
00:47:31,784 --> 00:47:33,354
And, you know, the PC had just come out.

1152
00:47:33,364 --> 00:47:35,334
A lot of the big guys were saying, oh, these are a toy.

1153
00:47:35,354 --> 00:47:37,994
Nobody's, you know, this is a glorified word processor, right?

1154
00:47:38,024 --> 00:47:39,204
You can't do anything else with it.

1155
00:47:39,369 --> 00:47:42,419
You know, Lotus 1, 2, 3 has just come out in a spreadsheet and

1156
00:47:42,419 --> 00:47:43,059
it's going to change the world.

1157
00:47:43,059 --> 00:47:47,689
But anyway, Microsoft came public in 1986, okay.

1158
00:47:47,689 --> 00:47:50,609
They did a public offering and they came public at 14 times

1159
00:47:50,619 --> 00:47:52,079
trailing earnings, which is low.

1160
00:47:52,449 --> 00:47:55,569
And they were growing at 40 percent a year, and they had the MS DOS

1161
00:47:55,569 --> 00:47:58,909
contract, and you know, they were doing extremely well with it.

1162
00:47:59,509 --> 00:48:05,729
And I'll never forget, the talk on Wall Street was, Ah, you know, the stuff, the

1163
00:48:05,829 --> 00:48:11,879
software stuff, it's ones and zeros, you can't really touch it, it's intangible.

1164
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,919
It's like, how can it really have value?

1165
00:48:15,119 --> 00:48:17,699
I'm not going to invest in a software company because they don't have value.

1166
00:48:18,039 --> 00:48:19,169
Hardware companies have value.

1167
00:48:19,849 --> 00:48:20,969
IBM has value.

1168
00:48:21,319 --> 00:48:22,489
You know, DEC has value.

1169
00:48:22,489 --> 00:48:27,019
People who make tangible machines that do computing operations have value.

1170
00:48:27,259 --> 00:48:31,239
The software that runs on it, that's just kind of a subsidiary thing that comes

1171
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:33,069
along with the value in the machine.

1172
00:48:33,129 --> 00:48:38,579
I mean, how much does this sound like what we're going through right now, right?

1173
00:48:38,949 --> 00:48:43,319
And, and at the same time, I was with, um, my, my business school

1174
00:48:43,359 --> 00:48:47,429
roommate and his roommate from Harvard college, a guy named Steve Ballmer.

1175
00:48:47,859 --> 00:48:51,599
And we were walking along the Charles River, and Ballmer was saying, Larry,

1176
00:48:51,869 --> 00:48:55,699
this thing is going to be in every single house, it's going to be on every single

1177
00:48:55,699 --> 00:49:00,279
machine, you know, the entire world is going to use computing power, and MS DOS

1178
00:49:00,299 --> 00:49:03,029
is going to be driving it, this company is going to be worth billions of dollars,

1179
00:49:03,029 --> 00:49:06,694
and my eyes just kind of opened up, it's like, wow, Wow, he might be right.

1180
00:49:07,094 --> 00:49:10,024
And of course he was right, but I couldn't see it.

1181
00:49:10,074 --> 00:49:14,614
I mean, I kind of could see it, but I had no idea how spectacularly

1182
00:49:14,614 --> 00:49:16,344
right he was going to be.

1183
00:49:16,604 --> 00:49:20,034
And I look at the Bitcoin thing, and I look at kind of the adoption,

1184
00:49:20,034 --> 00:49:23,709
I look at where we are in the early curve of it, It's the same thing.

1185
00:49:24,089 --> 00:49:27,309
I mean, it is going to be, there is no doubt in my mind, this

1186
00:49:27,309 --> 00:49:28,539
is going to be the base layer.

1187
00:49:28,909 --> 00:49:30,999
We are going to price everything in sats.

1188
00:49:31,439 --> 00:49:33,749
We're going to be, you know, someday we'll be at a penny a sat parity.

1189
00:49:33,749 --> 00:49:34,719
That'll be a million dollar coin.

1190
00:49:34,729 --> 00:49:35,679
That's not that far out.

1191
00:49:36,089 --> 00:49:39,189
And I think beyond that, at some point, we'll be at a dollar a sat parity.

1192
00:49:39,519 --> 00:49:41,729
You know, and, and there won't be any dollars anymore.

1193
00:49:41,769 --> 00:49:43,439
everything divided by 21 million.

1194
00:49:43,559 --> 00:49:44,289
it's exactly that.

1195
00:49:44,579 --> 00:49:45,529
You know, there's a, there's a,

1196
00:49:45,709 --> 00:49:45,959
says.

1197
00:49:45,959 --> 00:49:46,589
Or half, yeah.

1198
00:49:46,739 --> 00:49:47,739
who wrote a book about it.

1199
00:49:47,749 --> 00:49:48,389
It was really cool.

1200
00:49:48,579 --> 00:49:53,749
And he also has a really cool logo that, that, that I really respect.

1201
00:49:54,159 --> 00:49:56,049
So yeah, everything divided by 21 million.

1202
00:49:56,089 --> 00:49:56,449
Right.

1203
00:49:56,489 --> 00:50:01,679
So, um, it's, it's that kind of a fundamental base layer change.

1204
00:50:02,149 --> 00:50:06,419
And, you know, I mean, I, any new innovation, I mean, when the automobile

1205
00:50:06,419 --> 00:50:09,559
was invented, could you, could you see, foresee the interstate highway system?

1206
00:50:09,579 --> 00:50:12,179
No, and it took a decade for horses to disappear.

1207
00:50:12,229 --> 00:50:12,829
Of course.

1208
00:50:12,879 --> 00:50:15,909
And, and when, and, you know, and when the airplane was invented, could you

1209
00:50:15,909 --> 00:50:17,899
foresee, you know, the, the Concorde?

1210
00:50:18,279 --> 00:50:18,869
Do you know what I mean?

1211
00:50:18,899 --> 00:50:20,159
I mean, when, you know,

1212
00:50:20,169 --> 00:50:21,819
well, the concord is a story.

1213
00:50:21,939 --> 00:50:22,449
well, I,

1214
00:50:22,489 --> 00:50:23,619
not really around anymore.

1215
00:50:24,049 --> 00:50:30,479
I get it, but, but yeah, um, yeah,

1216
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:32,310
Ouch.

1217
00:50:32,359 --> 00:50:33,339
but the point is.

1218
00:50:33,849 --> 00:50:38,419
The point is, one has to have a little bit of imagination and look out in

1219
00:50:38,419 --> 00:50:44,389
a 20 year time frame and recognize that we are in front of a digital

1220
00:50:44,389 --> 00:50:50,629
revolution of money here and those who understand it and embrace it and invest

1221
00:50:50,629 --> 00:50:52,719
in it are going to benefit enormously.

1222
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:56,859
I mean, my subsidiary story to that Microsoft story was I bought stock in

1223
00:50:56,859 --> 00:50:59,769
Microsoft on that IPO and it went up.

1224
00:50:59,849 --> 00:51:02,729
I think, I can't remember exactly, but I think I made two or three times my money.

1225
00:51:03,159 --> 00:51:03,439
That's good.

1226
00:51:03,439 --> 00:51:04,369
A few years, right?

1227
00:51:04,499 --> 00:51:05,899
Well, I needed to buy a condominium.

1228
00:51:06,149 --> 00:51:08,489
You know, I need a place to live and I was renting.

1229
00:51:08,989 --> 00:51:12,289
All right, I sold my Microsoft stock because I needed a down payment, right?

1230
00:51:12,619 --> 00:51:14,119
That was a big fucking mistake.

1231
00:51:15,399 --> 00:51:17,149
That stock, I mean, split adjusted.

1232
00:51:17,179 --> 00:51:18,719
They came public at six cents a share.

1233
00:51:19,244 --> 00:51:20,934
It's now at 300 a share.

1234
00:51:21,574 --> 00:51:23,464
That's like 47, 000 times.

1235
00:51:23,514 --> 00:51:24,644
I mean, right.

1236
00:51:24,794 --> 00:51:26,184
I, I fucked up.

1237
00:51:29,194 --> 00:51:29,574
Exactly.

1238
00:51:29,584 --> 00:51:31,854
Well, arguably Bitcoin's even better because that's just

1239
00:51:31,854 --> 00:51:33,624
one technology in one segment.

1240
00:51:34,084 --> 00:51:35,354
Admittedly, it was the leading technology.

1241
00:51:35,739 --> 00:51:40,119
PC technology until Apple came along and that's a big deal, but, but actually,

1242
00:51:40,489 --> 00:51:43,859
actually Bitcoin's bigger because it's the base layer of everything,

1243
00:51:44,084 --> 00:51:44,884
yes, exactly.

1244
00:51:45,049 --> 00:51:48,619
And that's just the base layer that, you know, MS DOS was what's grew into

1245
00:51:48,629 --> 00:51:51,429
Windows and everything else, but, you know, Microsoft is the base layer of the

1246
00:51:51,429 --> 00:51:53,069
computing world, which is a big deal.

1247
00:51:53,539 --> 00:51:54,069
Don't get me wrong.

1248
00:51:54,069 --> 00:51:54,989
It's a very big deal.

1249
00:51:55,339 --> 00:51:58,259
But, but, you know, Bitcoin is the base layer of all money.

1250
00:51:58,319 --> 00:51:59,299
I mean, compute everything.

1251
00:51:59,789 --> 00:52:01,069
And so, so yeah, it is bigger.

1252
00:52:01,069 --> 00:52:01,709
Bitcoin is bigger.

1253
00:52:02,547 --> 00:52:06,717
that speaks to my heart, that story about Microsoft, because I have a similar

1254
00:52:06,997 --> 00:52:11,077
experience, even though a little later, because I vividly remember being like

1255
00:52:11,077 --> 00:52:17,317
between 16 and 18, and see, this is, uh, Well, I must have been a bit older.

1256
00:52:17,317 --> 00:52:21,517
I'm born in 76 and say the internet took off 95, 96 or something.

1257
00:52:21,517 --> 00:52:22,937
So I'm 19, 20 years old.

1258
00:52:23,327 --> 00:52:27,857
And I see like in the beginning, I could really see like that nobody

1259
00:52:27,857 --> 00:52:29,157
understands how big this is.

1260
00:52:29,397 --> 00:52:31,327
Like all computers are going to be connected.

1261
00:52:31,607 --> 00:52:33,367
How, how, how huge is that?

1262
00:52:33,777 --> 00:52:33,977
No.

1263
00:52:33,977 --> 00:52:34,347
Yeah.

1264
00:52:34,397 --> 00:52:35,367
Well, I wish I did.

1265
00:52:35,387 --> 00:52:36,817
I wish I had a

1266
00:52:37,102 --> 00:52:37,682
Some money.

1267
00:52:37,712 --> 00:52:38,062
Yeah.

1268
00:52:38,222 --> 00:52:43,902
Or, or at least some interest in, in, uh, taking a bigger role in,

1269
00:52:44,392 --> 00:52:48,602
you know, computing and internet in general, but instead I went and

1270
00:52:48,602 --> 00:52:52,492
became a sea captain, which, which is sort of what just happened.

1271
00:52:52,502 --> 00:52:55,382
Like, like for every young person you try stuff and

1272
00:52:55,492 --> 00:52:56,012
was a dream.

1273
00:52:56,012 --> 00:52:57,122
You wanted to do it and you did it.

1274
00:52:57,222 --> 00:53:00,742
but when, when Bitcoin came along, um, I had the exact same feeling.

1275
00:53:01,082 --> 00:53:03,862
I see this thing and this, this time I'm not going to be, you

1276
00:53:03,982 --> 00:53:04,502
not going to miss it.

1277
00:53:04,542 --> 00:53:06,922
no, I'm not going to miss this boat, pun intended.

1278
00:53:07,082 --> 00:53:08,332
I, I, yeah, I've had three cycles.

1279
00:53:08,342 --> 00:53:11,452
So I had the Microsoft cycle, you know, the PC goes from nothing

1280
00:53:11,452 --> 00:53:12,462
to being an important thing.

1281
00:53:12,837 --> 00:53:16,707
Then I got very lucky in 92 or 3, somebody gave me a card

1282
00:53:16,707 --> 00:53:17,767
with an internet address on it.

1283
00:53:17,767 --> 00:53:20,267
It was a copy server and said, send me, send me those files to my internet.

1284
00:53:20,267 --> 00:53:21,187
I said, what the hell is that?

1285
00:53:21,497 --> 00:53:23,097
They said, well, you have a, you have a Novel,

1286
00:53:23,557 --> 00:53:24,737
good fax machine over here.

1287
00:53:24,827 --> 00:53:25,147
yeah, exactly.

1288
00:53:25,447 --> 00:53:25,627
Yeah.

1289
00:53:25,847 --> 00:53:27,377
You have a, you have a Novel LAN, right?

1290
00:53:27,377 --> 00:53:28,177
You can link your computer.

1291
00:53:28,177 --> 00:53:28,447
Yeah.

1292
00:53:28,507 --> 00:53:28,727
Yeah.

1293
00:53:28,727 --> 00:53:30,947
Imagine if you could send email anywhere in the world.

1294
00:53:30,947 --> 00:53:32,827
I was like, Oh shit, that's powerful.

1295
00:53:33,167 --> 00:53:33,477
Right.

1296
00:53:33,507 --> 00:53:35,647
And so I went and got an account and then I went to my guys and

1297
00:53:35,647 --> 00:53:36,667
we were a venture capital firm.

1298
00:53:36,667 --> 00:53:36,727
Right.

1299
00:53:37,062 --> 00:53:38,752
And we invested in all the internet companies we could

1300
00:53:38,752 --> 00:53:41,682
find and yeah, in 94, 93 and 4.

1301
00:53:41,682 --> 00:53:42,292
That worked really well.

1302
00:53:42,292 --> 00:53:44,552
That fund, 25 million fund, returned like 150 million.

1303
00:53:44,892 --> 00:53:54,212
I mean, it was, if you just send me some money, I can get you 5 million.

1304
00:53:54,487 --> 00:53:55,867
me one and I will give

1305
00:53:56,032 --> 00:53:56,962
I will give you 5 million.

1306
00:53:57,352 --> 00:53:57,842
Exactly.

1307
00:53:57,842 --> 00:53:57,982
Yeah.

1308
00:53:57,982 --> 00:53:58,972
I've been stolen from me.

1309
00:53:59,352 --> 00:53:59,682
Yeah.

1310
00:53:59,952 --> 00:54:01,442
So, um, yeah.

1311
00:54:01,612 --> 00:54:05,222
And yeah, I mean, look, humans learn through experience and

1312
00:54:05,222 --> 00:54:08,142
pattern recognition is an important part of experience and investing.

1313
00:54:08,142 --> 00:54:08,182
Yeah.

1314
00:54:08,632 --> 00:54:13,932
And to me, the Bitcoin revolution is just, it's, it's PCs, it's the

1315
00:54:13,932 --> 00:54:16,142
internet, it's just the next step.

1316
00:54:16,412 --> 00:54:19,992
And, um, and therefore, you know, anyone listening to this who's

1317
00:54:20,122 --> 00:54:23,112
scared of it, I encourage you to just go learn, ask questions.

1318
00:54:23,112 --> 00:54:25,522
Bitcoin is a very friendly, they'll try and help you.

1319
00:54:25,522 --> 00:54:27,482
They want to, you know, they want to help you.

1320
00:54:27,972 --> 00:54:31,892
Because, um, they've, you know, they recognize how important it is

1321
00:54:32,272 --> 00:54:35,772
for, you know, for all people to protect, you know, protect themselves.

1322
00:54:35,787 --> 00:54:37,102
Yeah.

1323
00:54:37,267 --> 00:54:39,517
as you say, like, computers is just one sector.

1324
00:54:39,767 --> 00:54:43,457
I'd say, I'd say, Bitcoin will do to finance what the

1325
00:54:43,457 --> 00:54:45,387
wheel did to transportation.

1326
00:54:45,757 --> 00:54:46,097
Yeah.

1327
00:54:46,387 --> 00:54:46,757
Yeah.

1328
00:54:47,717 --> 00:54:49,047
It's even, even bigger than

1329
00:54:49,227 --> 00:54:49,947
It's much bigger.

1330
00:54:50,107 --> 00:54:51,567
Yeah, it's absolutely, it's absolutely much

1331
00:54:51,607 --> 00:54:52,547
Touches everything.

1332
00:54:52,687 --> 00:54:55,897
Yeah, and I mean, the thing that's so interesting about it to me, and it

1333
00:54:55,897 --> 00:54:59,597
really is an experiment, that's the only way to, in my mind, to describe

1334
00:54:59,597 --> 00:55:04,057
it, is we, you know, there has never been a commodity in the world that

1335
00:55:04,057 --> 00:55:05,797
does not respond to higher prices.

1336
00:55:06,292 --> 00:55:08,402
In other words, if, you know, the price of gold goes up,

1337
00:55:08,422 --> 00:55:09,242
we're going to buy more gold.

1338
00:55:09,602 --> 00:55:10,372
Price of oil goes up.

1339
00:55:10,402 --> 00:55:11,492
We're going to drill for more oil.

1340
00:55:11,782 --> 00:55:12,622
The price of corn goes up.

1341
00:55:12,622 --> 00:55:13,652
We're going to grow more corn.

1342
00:55:14,062 --> 00:55:19,222
Every commodity known to man, the price will drive supply and demand supply.

1343
00:55:19,232 --> 00:55:23,052
This is an algorithmically fixed supply, you know, asymptotically

1344
00:55:23,052 --> 00:55:24,412
decreasing every four years.

1345
00:55:24,492 --> 00:55:26,872
And as a result of that, it's just not going to change.

1346
00:55:27,142 --> 00:55:29,812
And that's why, that's why when Saylor says this is going up

1347
00:55:29,822 --> 00:55:31,222
forever, Lawrence, he's right.

1348
00:55:31,532 --> 00:55:33,232
It actually will go up forever.

1349
00:55:33,707 --> 00:55:36,527
You know, and, and I mean, we've never seen, we've never

1350
00:55:36,527 --> 00:55:38,297
seen digital scarcity before.

1351
00:55:38,627 --> 00:55:39,167
Never.

1352
00:55:39,507 --> 00:55:41,537
or, nor absolute scarcity.

1353
00:55:41,617 --> 00:55:42,187
yes.

1354
00:55:42,277 --> 00:55:42,787
Correct.

1355
00:55:42,937 --> 00:55:43,417
Yeah.

1356
00:55:43,567 --> 00:55:44,137
That's correct.

1357
00:55:44,747 --> 00:55:45,497
So, yeah.

1358
00:55:45,622 --> 00:55:49,277
And, and, and, and that, and, and so I think, I think what's tough

1359
00:55:49,277 --> 00:55:52,007
for investors and people looking at this, it's kind of tough to get

1360
00:55:52,012 --> 00:55:53,667
your brain around it, you know?

1361
00:55:53,697 --> 00:55:55,617
'cause it's, it's a, it's a new thing, right?

1362
00:55:55,857 --> 00:55:58,127
You know, Augustine Carstens, that Bank of

1363
00:55:58,217 --> 00:55:59,542
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1364
00:55:59,727 --> 00:56:05,187
when I see the picture of his one button on his jacket, I, I, I think

1365
00:56:05,197 --> 00:56:11,622
of Bitcoin because that's like, Immovable object meet unstoppable force.

1366
00:56:11,657 --> 00:56:13,697
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1367
00:56:13,852 --> 00:56:15,072
No offense, Augustin.

1368
00:56:15,197 --> 00:56:16,927
yeah, yeah,

1369
00:56:17,312 --> 00:56:18,392
Pretty sure you meant defense.

1370
00:56:19,952 --> 00:56:20,792
Defense, maybe.

1371
00:56:21,142 --> 00:56:22,552
Talking about Bitcoin is defense.

1372
00:56:23,122 --> 00:56:23,932
Alright, alright.

1373
00:56:24,197 --> 00:56:27,357
yeah, they're, they're, they're trying to kill it, so it's, it's fair to fight back.

1374
00:56:27,977 --> 00:56:32,697
Yeah, I mean, it's, um, yeah, I, look, I, I have plenty of

1375
00:56:32,697 --> 00:56:34,227
time for anyone who's a skeptic.

1376
00:56:34,927 --> 00:56:40,017
I have no time for people who are, you know, just parroting and, and, and

1377
00:56:40,017 --> 00:56:44,257
hating on it, you know, because they know it's going to ruin their privilege.

1378
00:56:44,652 --> 00:56:47,992
you ever heard a Bitcoin critic that understands Bitcoin?

1379
00:56:48,887 --> 00:56:49,647
Not really.

1380
00:56:49,962 --> 00:56:50,502
Not really,

1381
00:56:50,617 --> 00:56:56,687
no, no, I mean, if you, if you, if you scratch pretty hard, you kind

1382
00:56:56,687 --> 00:56:58,217
of, you can't really get there.

1383
00:56:58,277 --> 00:57:03,077
I mean, A lot of the gold guys use the intrinsic argument, intrinsic value

1384
00:57:03,077 --> 00:57:06,547
argument, but as Menger taught us, all, yeah, all value is subjective, right?

1385
00:57:06,587 --> 00:57:10,517
I mean, nobody knows, you know, and, and it's subjective at the point in time.

1386
00:57:10,517 --> 00:57:13,757
I mean, you know, a glass of water is priceless to a starving man in the

1387
00:57:14,017 --> 00:57:15,927
desert, you know, but water is ubiquitous.

1388
00:57:16,642 --> 00:57:17,422
You know, in the Alps.

1389
00:57:17,462 --> 00:57:22,302
So, um, but yeah, no, I, I haven't ever seen a Bitcoin critic that

1390
00:57:22,372 --> 00:57:24,152
has a really good argument.

1391
00:57:24,262 --> 00:57:27,932
Um, and, and a lot of times they don't fully understand it

1392
00:57:28,142 --> 00:57:31,792
and, um, you know, they haven't taken the time to do the work.

1393
00:57:31,812 --> 00:57:36,652
I mean, I think, I think, you know, a lot of the critics are smart enough

1394
00:57:36,662 --> 00:57:39,932
to recognize that it represents a threat to their privilege.

1395
00:57:40,622 --> 00:57:43,912
You know, there are a lot of people, I mean, I, and I'll tell you who I throw in

1396
00:57:43,912 --> 00:57:45,482
this, I throw Jamie Dimon in that bucket.

1397
00:57:46,027 --> 00:57:46,237
Right?

1398
00:57:46,237 --> 00:57:47,427
I mean, I think he understands it.

1399
00:57:47,937 --> 00:57:48,827
I think he knows what it is.

1400
00:57:48,867 --> 00:57:49,367
I think he knows what it

1401
00:57:49,377 --> 00:57:49,947
think so?

1402
00:57:50,177 --> 00:57:50,447
Yeah.

1403
00:57:50,537 --> 00:57:50,667
I

1404
00:57:50,787 --> 00:57:54,087
after, even after this last interview when he was all blockchain,

1405
00:57:54,092 --> 00:57:56,672
blockchain, blockchain and no use case and only criminals and all.

1406
00:57:56,787 --> 00:57:59,617
Well, but that's, see, that's just, he's just throwing up smoke.

1407
00:57:59,617 --> 00:58:00,887
I think he knows that's not true.

1408
00:58:01,427 --> 00:58:06,017
And I think what he's doing is he's, he's saying all of those things in order to

1409
00:58:06,017 --> 00:58:10,357
defend his privilege because he knows that this is not good for who he is.

1410
00:58:10,427 --> 00:58:10,817
No, no.

1411
00:58:10,822 --> 00:58:15,137
And, and that's, that's, if that is the case, that is then

1412
00:58:15,297 --> 00:58:16,077
being disingenuous.

1413
00:58:16,077 --> 00:58:16,237
That's

1414
00:58:16,337 --> 00:58:20,357
he is a symptom of, of, uh, of rotten system

1415
00:58:20,797 --> 00:58:21,477
He's dishonest.

1416
00:58:21,477 --> 00:58:21,727
He's dishonest.

1417
00:58:21,857 --> 00:58:24,617
how can you be that dishonest in that position?

1418
00:58:25,287 --> 00:58:26,137
If the system is

1419
00:58:26,337 --> 00:58:27,007
Oh, that's my point.

1420
00:58:27,137 --> 00:58:28,127
The wrong people have won.

1421
00:58:28,737 --> 00:58:28,897
Yeah.

1422
00:58:28,897 --> 00:58:29,737
Here's a dishonest

1423
00:58:30,027 --> 00:58:33,217
global elite are really just the thieves.

1424
00:58:33,257 --> 00:58:33,527
Yes.

1425
00:58:33,537 --> 00:58:34,187
They're dishonest.

1426
00:58:34,397 --> 00:58:35,667
most successful thieves.

1427
00:58:35,727 --> 00:58:36,257
That's right.

1428
00:58:36,647 --> 00:58:37,037
Yeah.

1429
00:58:37,357 --> 00:58:41,607
And then, and he has a, he has a horse and pony story to explain, you know,

1430
00:58:41,607 --> 00:58:46,567
why it's no good because of, you know, it's being used for, you know, nefarious

1431
00:58:46,577 --> 00:58:50,247
things, which is not, I mean, it is to a small degree, but so is the dollar.

1432
00:58:50,347 --> 00:58:51,307
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1433
00:58:51,427 --> 00:58:51,797
is cash.

1434
00:58:51,797 --> 00:58:53,187
I mean, Epstein, he was Epstein's banker.

1435
00:58:53,327 --> 00:58:54,147
is water,

1436
00:58:54,257 --> 00:58:54,917
Yeah, right.

1437
00:58:54,937 --> 00:58:55,607
Exactly.

1438
00:58:55,647 --> 00:58:55,997
Yeah.

1439
00:58:56,007 --> 00:58:57,307
You can drown people with it.

1440
00:58:57,867 --> 00:59:00,847
Like, that's such a, that's such a bullshit argument.

1441
00:59:01,007 --> 00:59:01,827
Like, there's

1442
00:59:01,967 --> 00:59:02,167
Yeah.

1443
00:59:02,167 --> 00:59:07,577
But I, no, I, um, I have reason to believe based on, you know, kind

1444
00:59:07,577 --> 00:59:10,007
of direct context, I have reason to believe he's smarter than that.

1445
00:59:10,717 --> 00:59:12,287
And, and, and, and therefore you're right.

1446
00:59:12,307 --> 00:59:12,887
He's being dishonest.

1447
00:59:12,887 --> 00:59:13,347
Yeah.

1448
00:59:14,872 --> 00:59:15,772
Which is worse.

1449
00:59:15,862 --> 00:59:16,102
, which is worse.

1450
00:59:16,767 --> 00:59:17,057
Yeah.

1451
00:59:17,097 --> 00:59:20,677
Actually, if you were just stupid and didn't truly understand it, you

1452
00:59:20,677 --> 00:59:22,077
know, that would be bad, but okay.

1453
00:59:22,077 --> 00:59:23,167
The guy's not very bright.

1454
00:59:23,167 --> 00:59:25,977
He doesn't get it, but no, it's worse than that in my view.

1455
00:59:26,437 --> 00:59:26,947
He gets it.

1456
00:59:28,500 --> 00:59:29,820
Maybe we can, uh, pull this

1457
00:59:29,820 --> 00:59:30,390
back around.

1458
00:59:30,390 --> 00:59:33,420
We've been going for about an hour here, and honestly I think, I think

1459
00:59:33,420 --> 00:59:36,750
we probably want to get back to this fantastic, uh, conference.

1460
00:59:36,750 --> 00:59:39,360
So what, anything else on your mind?

1461
00:59:39,365 --> 00:59:41,880
Uh, a preview of, uh, something, uh,

1462
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:42,840
you're talking about

1463
00:59:42,905 --> 00:59:47,015
no, I mean, you know, so when's Bitcoin going to go to a million dollars?

1464
00:59:47,015 --> 00:59:47,515
I don't know.

1465
00:59:47,535 --> 00:59:49,115
I mean, I follow Samson.

1466
00:59:49,115 --> 00:59:54,515
He knows, um, I think we're going to see 100, 000 sometime, you know, pretty soon.

1467
00:59:54,605 --> 00:59:56,095
I mean, you know, 6 months or so.

1468
00:59:56,095 --> 00:59:57,605
I mean, the havings coming and so forth.

1469
00:59:58,250 --> 01:00:01,430
Um, I think it really will get turbocharged when we see the

1470
01:00:01,430 --> 01:00:04,170
next financial, I mean, I, I, you know, I operate a fund that

1471
01:00:04,170 --> 01:00:05,210
invests in Bitcoin and gold.

1472
01:00:05,650 --> 01:00:10,430
And so, um, you know, the J Powell pushing up interest rates, that slowed everything

1473
01:00:10,430 --> 01:00:12,260
down in the monetary debasement world.

1474
01:00:12,390 --> 01:00:14,090
I think we're about to have something else break.

1475
01:00:14,340 --> 01:00:16,600
And when something does break, I think we're responsible to print more

1476
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:17,845
money again, as they always have.

1477
01:00:18,495 --> 01:00:21,815
And that will really be the next turbocharged move that will take gold over

1478
01:00:21,815 --> 01:00:26,975
3, to half a million, or certainly 200, 000, maybe headed towards half a million.

1479
01:00:26,975 --> 01:00:29,445
So, um, those are kind of the things I see ahead.

1480
01:00:29,715 --> 01:00:32,105
The one piece of information I will say that I've been getting

1481
01:00:32,115 --> 01:00:33,115
because I know a lot of people in D.

1482
01:00:33,115 --> 01:00:35,425
C., um, in the U.

1483
01:00:35,425 --> 01:00:38,435
S., I think the most acute area of financial distress right

1484
01:00:38,435 --> 01:00:39,425
now is commercial real estate.

1485
01:00:40,220 --> 01:00:42,760
Um, you see a lot of these office buildings all over the country getting

1486
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:46,740
sold for 30 cents on the dollar and those notes are held by the regional

1487
01:00:46,740 --> 01:00:50,190
banks throughout the United States and Silicon Valley Bank failed in March

1488
01:00:50,190 --> 01:00:53,670
of last year, they papered it up, you know, BTFP, all the usual stuff, they

1489
01:00:54,050 --> 01:00:56,480
put it all back in the camera, there are more of those, there are more of

1490
01:00:56,490 --> 01:00:58,540
those coming and the rumor out of D.

1491
01:00:58,540 --> 01:01:01,120
C., but you know, kind of credible because I've heard a

1492
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:02,320
couple places and people in D.

1493
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:02,510
C.

1494
01:01:02,510 --> 01:01:07,525
talk, Is that they're cobbling together some kind of a resolution

1495
01:01:07,535 --> 01:01:12,785
trust, you know, new entity that would buy troubled CRE from the banks,

1496
01:01:13,285 --> 01:01:16,305
you know, in order to protect the banks from the losses and so forth.

1497
01:01:16,305 --> 01:01:17,745
And of course, buy with what?

1498
01:01:18,175 --> 01:01:19,800
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1499
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:19,890
Of

1500
01:01:19,985 --> 01:01:20,495
Yeah, right.

1501
01:01:20,545 --> 01:01:24,105
And so, so I think, and I think if and when they unroll that kind of a

1502
01:01:24,105 --> 01:01:26,355
program that says we're going to, we're going to backstop all this, I mean.

1503
01:01:26,705 --> 01:01:29,165
There's, I mean, Barry Sternlich says there's maybe 1.

1504
01:01:29,215 --> 01:01:32,505
2 billion dollars of just, you know, of worthless CRE debt.

1505
01:01:32,505 --> 01:01:35,395
I mean, that would be a big, if they backstopped all that,

1506
01:01:35,395 --> 01:01:36,845
that would be a big number.

1507
01:01:37,305 --> 01:01:40,815
So, and I think, I think when, when they do that, you know, the

1508
01:01:40,815 --> 01:01:44,705
investing world will wake up and go, Oh, more monetary debasement.

1509
01:01:44,715 --> 01:01:45,855
They can never stop.

1510
01:01:46,385 --> 01:01:49,885
And because they can never stop, I've got to protect myself.

1511
01:01:50,185 --> 01:01:53,445
And, you know, the, the old folks who don't understand Bitcoin

1512
01:01:53,445 --> 01:01:54,145
will say, I know how to do that.

1513
01:01:54,145 --> 01:01:54,805
I buy gold.

1514
01:01:55,230 --> 01:01:59,290
And everyone else who's smarter, younger, and studied Bitcoin will go, Great,

1515
01:01:59,390 --> 01:02:00,850
you know, we need to buy more Bitcoin.

1516
01:02:01,450 --> 01:02:04,820
And so I think they're both going to really start to accelerate.

1517
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:08,290
And at some point they're gonna accelerate so much that, that

1518
01:02:08,290 --> 01:02:10,600
they're gonna, you know, it's, it's gonna be the last acceleration.

1519
01:02:11,250 --> 01:02:11,490
Right.

1520
01:02:11,490 --> 01:02:12,960
And the, and the dollar fails.

1521
01:02:13,285 --> 01:02:15,785
And then, then it goes really crazy.

1522
01:02:17,140 --> 01:02:19,450
But the, but the other thing to keep in mind, 'cause and that's not my

1523
01:02:19,450 --> 01:02:22,360
Twitter feed, people should look at it, you know, we've all kind of, you

1524
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:26,110
should look at the chart of the price of gold in Weymar Germany, that there

1525
01:02:26,110 --> 01:02:27,490
could be some real volatility here.

1526
01:02:27,715 --> 01:02:33,105
And, and the guy who came out, the, the rich, one of the best investors in

1527
01:02:33,115 --> 01:02:38,575
history from the Weimar Republic by, by just, by, by just, he's doing exactly

1528
01:02:38,575 --> 01:02:39,845
what Michael Saylor is doing right now.

1529
01:02:40,185 --> 01:02:41,865
Hugo Sinnes was the, yeah, the inflation king.

1530
01:02:42,335 --> 01:02:42,535
Yeah.

1531
01:02:42,535 --> 01:02:43,035
Of Weimar.

1532
01:02:43,115 --> 01:02:43,455
Yeah.

1533
01:02:43,555 --> 01:02:43,915
Yeah.

1534
01:02:44,015 --> 01:02:47,875
He borrowed money and bought sound assets with it and he paid back the money.

1535
01:02:48,035 --> 01:02:48,915
The money became worthless.

1536
01:02:48,915 --> 01:02:49,475
He paid it back.

1537
01:02:50,035 --> 01:02:50,315
Yeah.

1538
01:02:50,915 --> 01:02:51,895
It's a dangerous strategy though.

1539
01:02:51,895 --> 01:02:54,145
You got to be careful because if you get blown out on the borrowing,

1540
01:02:54,155 --> 01:02:55,815
you don't want to, you know, you don't want to get called in.

1541
01:02:55,985 --> 01:02:56,555
no, no,

1542
01:02:56,655 --> 01:02:57,065
Right.

1543
01:02:57,205 --> 01:02:57,575
Yeah.

1544
01:02:57,905 --> 01:02:59,455
I don't recommend using leverage.

1545
01:02:59,455 --> 01:03:00,265
I guess that's what I'm saying.

1546
01:03:02,165 --> 01:03:05,625
Larry, it's been a fantastic time chatting with you and you've got, you've

1547
01:03:05,625 --> 01:03:08,775
got such, you've got a perspective that no one else we, we really talked

1548
01:03:08,775 --> 01:03:12,115
to, I think has, I mean, it's great to hear about the experiences you've

1549
01:03:12,145 --> 01:03:15,865
had with previous cycles and all that and the, and the parallels with,

1550
01:03:15,865 --> 01:03:19,525
with Bitcoin, but it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's, uh, great to have you,

1551
01:03:19,685 --> 01:03:21,125
That's the advantage of being old, right?

1552
01:03:21,125 --> 01:03:22,335
You've seen a lot of shit.

1553
01:03:22,735 --> 01:03:28,325
yeah, and if Larry ever starts tweeting about, uh, shit coins again, yeah,

1554
01:03:28,795 --> 01:03:31,795
anyone was paying attention to my feed about three weeks ago, and there were a

1555
01:03:31,795 --> 01:03:33,655
bunch of shitcoin tweets, that ain't me.

1556
01:03:34,425 --> 01:03:36,465
And hopefully that won't ever happen again.

1557
01:03:36,515 --> 01:03:37,975
I think we got that problem solved.

1558
01:03:38,420 --> 01:03:41,450
Except if the shitcoin is gold, because then it's probably a slur.

1559
01:03:42,055 --> 01:03:43,705
Yeah, that's right.

1560
01:03:43,950 --> 01:03:44,630
I had to.

1561
01:03:44,685 --> 01:03:45,465
I know you did.

1562
01:03:46,175 --> 01:03:46,805
That's okay.

1563
01:03:47,145 --> 01:03:50,405
I carry a lot of, I carry a lot of, I take a lot of heat from bitcoiners for

1564
01:03:50,405 --> 01:03:54,505
owning gold, but I'll tell you what, I have helped the cause of bitcoin a lot

1565
01:03:54,515 --> 01:04:00,120
because I've been able to convert gold people and, and only not, I would say a

1566
01:04:00,140 --> 01:04:05,280
gold person is the best person to convert a bit to who's become a bitcoiner like me.

1567
01:04:05,770 --> 01:04:08,930
It's easier for me to do it because they trust me because

1568
01:04:08,930 --> 01:04:12,310
they know I'm a real legit gold guy and I've moved over to here.

1569
01:04:12,710 --> 01:04:14,900
And so like, there's a guy called Chris Irons who runs Quoth

1570
01:04:14,910 --> 01:04:16,090
the Raven on Twitter is very

1571
01:04:16,420 --> 01:04:16,720
Oh yeah,

1572
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:17,640
I just orange pilled him.

1573
01:04:17,730 --> 01:04:18,720
I mean, he's all in.

1574
01:04:18,970 --> 01:04:20,320
He was a hundred percent gold guy.

1575
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:24,340
Yeah, so, so that's my role in this whole thing has been to

1576
01:04:24,340 --> 01:04:26,230
kind of, hey gold guys, wake up.

1577
01:04:26,380 --> 01:04:27,460
So when Peter Schiff?

1578
01:04:27,830 --> 01:04:30,250
Uh, I tried, I did, I did an hour and a half interview.

1579
01:04:30,590 --> 01:04:32,210
He is so intransigent.

1580
01:04:32,730 --> 01:04:34,220
I mean, I, Google it.

1581
01:04:34,220 --> 01:04:35,530
I had a, I had a debate with him.

1582
01:04:35,530 --> 01:04:36,230
Very pleasant.

1583
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:38,230
I would, I tried to keep it very professional.

1584
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:40,330
He just can't get over it.

1585
01:04:40,610 --> 01:04:42,860
Although he conceded a few points to me.

1586
01:04:43,175 --> 01:04:47,885
And to be brutally frank, it would not surprise me, he's too smart, it

1587
01:04:47,885 --> 01:04:52,125
wouldn't surprise me if he's got in his back pocket, if he's got some,

1588
01:04:52,155 --> 01:04:55,075
and he's not talking about, part of the reason he doesn't talk about,

1589
01:04:55,185 --> 01:05:00,595
he's got an enormous business based on gold, selling gold, investing in gold,

1590
01:05:00,875 --> 01:05:03,745
you know, clients, He almost can't.

1591
01:05:03,745 --> 01:05:06,775
I mean, I've got clients who are into gold, but they're, you know,

1592
01:05:06,775 --> 01:05:10,255
they're flexible and, and I can migrate, do you know what I mean?

1593
01:05:10,465 --> 01:05:15,635
He's, he's got 30 years in gold and, and so he's kind of trapped

1594
01:05:16,105 --> 01:05:19,015
and I think he'd probably lose a, if he, if he said, I like Bitcoin,

1595
01:05:19,015 --> 01:05:20,415
he'd probably lose a lot of clients.

1596
01:05:20,645 --> 01:05:21,495
I said, I like Bitcoin.

1597
01:05:21,515 --> 01:05:23,275
I lost, actually, I did lose a few clients.

1598
01:05:23,675 --> 01:05:26,055
When I said I like Bitcoin, I lost a few gold guys and said, well, I'm

1599
01:05:26,055 --> 01:05:27,635
out and I don't, that's not good.

1600
01:05:27,665 --> 01:05:28,325
I don't want you doing that.

1601
01:05:28,780 --> 01:05:30,960
But you gained a whole bunch of

1602
01:05:31,185 --> 01:05:32,645
Well, exactly right.

1603
01:05:32,715 --> 01:05:33,575
That's exactly right.

1604
01:05:33,595 --> 01:05:36,595
And so, so I think Peter might be the last guy to come around, but he's,

1605
01:05:37,225 --> 01:05:40,465
again, he's smart enough that, you know, if he, if he's, you know, I

1606
01:05:40,745 --> 01:05:44,855
wouldn't, if, you know, it wouldn't surprise me if he owned some personally.

1607
01:05:45,125 --> 01:05:48,615
You know, another guy who I think is in the same camp, you know, um, uh, Brent

1608
01:05:48,615 --> 01:05:50,475
Johnson from, uh, Santiago Capital.

1609
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:52,010
The Dollar Milkshake guy.

1610
01:05:52,970 --> 01:05:55,970
He's kind of neutral, a little bit neutral on Bitcoin.

1611
01:05:56,020 --> 01:05:57,000
I'll bet he owns some.

1612
01:05:57,520 --> 01:05:59,870
He's too smart not to, you know.

1613
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:00,800
So, anyway,

1614
01:06:01,460 --> 01:06:01,890
Anyway.

1615
01:06:01,890 --> 01:06:02,100
much.

1616
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:02,340
Really

1617
01:06:02,530 --> 01:06:02,790
Great

1618
01:06:02,810 --> 01:06:03,070
you, man.

1619
01:06:03,090 --> 01:06:04,150
Yeah, good to see you, brother.

1620
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:05,180
Thanks a lot,

1621
01:06:05,310 --> 01:06:06,280
nice to see you, yeah.

1622
01:06:06,380 --> 01:06:06,690
Yeah.

1623
01:06:06,750 --> 01:06:06,990
All right.

1624
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:08,450
Any, any last words?

1625
01:06:08,450 --> 01:06:09,380
Anywhere you want to send people?

1626
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:09,710
That's it.

1627
01:06:10,020 --> 01:06:10,330
That's good.

1628
01:06:10,610 --> 01:06:10,870
That's good.

1629
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:12,500
We'll send a fax about the details.

1630
01:06:12,500 --> 01:06:13,147
We'll send

1631
01:06:13,210 --> 01:06:14,420
pill everybody you can.

1632
01:06:14,420 --> 01:06:17,160
That's, you know, that was Sailor's message, that's my message.

1633
01:06:17,815 --> 01:06:20,765
This is going to make the world a better place, and so, to the degree

1634
01:06:20,765 --> 01:06:24,235
that we can do the work of converting people, that's all we can do, right?

1635
01:06:24,650 --> 01:06:25,030
Fantastic,

1636
01:06:25,175 --> 01:06:25,845
Yeah, great.

1637
01:06:25,845 --> 01:06:26,245
Thank you so

1638
01:06:26,370 --> 01:06:27,290
Thank you so much.

1639
01:06:27,378 --> 01:06:28,790
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

1640
01:06:28,860 --> 01:06:29,640
Thanks for listening.

1641
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:30,610
Brush your teeth.