Bitcoin in the Middle East and Africa with Sooly Kobayashi - FFS #103

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My experience I noticed like one thing that's been working in Africa

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with business owners, just from a mining perspective is mining is legal.

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Just explore, how much electricity do they have?

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How much electricity do they consume?

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the cost of electricity.

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Convince them to put a miner to transform a cost center into a

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profit center in their business.

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the adoption, it's.

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is accelerating from my view for the small to medium business owners,

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in Africa and the Middle East.

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no one heard of ordinals in Africa.

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But the impact of the ordinance and the transaction fees.

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They know of that.

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They don't want to dive into the intricacies of lightning

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Opening channels, et cetera.

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No.

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they heard that Bitcoin has a, they can transfer money for cheap,

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they can wait 10 minutes or like 15 minutes or whatever for, to get

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their $101,000 or, or 10 K or 20 K.

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They want that and they hear it's, it's been the most secure

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network to transact on for them.

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They don't care about the speed, as long as it's cheap and secure.

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But with the ordinals, it only made that more difficult.

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Sooly Kobayashi, welcome to the Freedom Footprint Show.

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Thanks for joining us.

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Thanks for having me, Luke, Knut.

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Yeah.

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Nice to see you, Sooly.

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could you start by giving our listeners a little introduction through to yourself?

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Give us, give us the TLDR on Sooly Kobayashi, please.

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sure.

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SuSoolyLebanese born and raised.

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lived through the Lebanese public corruption before all the inflation and

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Lebanon getting into the mainstream media.

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Uh, worked into international NGOs, uh, United Nations humanitarian

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development programs in Lebanon, uh, working with ministries,

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working with cash programs, etc.

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I've always been an IT geek since seven, uh, when I disassembled the first PC.

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And then, uh, yeah, 2014, I moved to Europe, to the corporate world,

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where it happens just moving.

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I hear about something called Bitcoin.

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Didn't really, Look into it.

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That's my, my 10 year anniversary memorial, uh, since 2014.

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and then, um, yeah, I started traveling to Africa, uh, Southwest Africa and

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the Middle East for the last decades, every six weeks for three weeks.

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and Just before the inflation that hit Angola in 2016, I had started to

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dabble into the TradFi kind of trading traditional finance just as a hobby.

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2016, I am in Angola, the, there's all this inflationary syndrome that the

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country is going through from capital controls to prices to, uh, price controls,

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to the banks, not transferring money, um, outside the country, et cetera.

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And then, yeah, that's, just wanted to, to, to share that because for me,

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as a Lebanese, I saw that in 2016 and as soon as it started 2019 in Lebanon,

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uh, I saw a lot of similarities.

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Now, um, through my Bitcoin story, just 2017, I told you 1,016, I started

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like stratify, um, Bitcoin, uh, um.

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It happened that I picked up Bitcoin on my, investing, trading

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radar, just like any other asset.

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I didn't know what it was, just traded it just like that.

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other funds and oil and metals, et cetera, had no cloud bought custody.

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and back then I was like, I was proud that, yeah, I started, uh, I

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own some Bitcoin on a trading app.

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I thought it was like mine anyway, in the first place.

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and then 2019 is where I really started to realize that this is very time consuming.

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I was lucky that I, unfortunately, the only thing I lost was

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time and time preference.

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and I only realized the, the, the importance of time preference in

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2019, where it was affecting really my life, uh, family, friends, work,

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because I was doing this on the side.

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And, You have to follow the news, um, Asia, Europe, uh, the States, uh,

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having two or three screens, uh, on and like trying to understand graphs and

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astronomy, um, so it was quite a thing.

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And then I noticed that everything followed Bitcoin,

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uh, for a reason or another.

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So that triggered my curiosity, and frankly, I, I go through these

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annual self reflections, uh, where I had to change something in my life.

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Uh, everything was okay except sleep and like quality, uh, relationships.

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I was like, you know what, uh, I'm going to convert all these

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top 30, 40 crypto to Bitcoin.

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I did that, 2019, just at the beginning, even though I started

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dabbling because like I always followed Buffet's, uh, advice on like, always

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buy when there's blood on the street.

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Uh, I understood back then that Bitcoin was, uh, an asset that had

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some legitimacy, uh, even back then, and then converted to Bitcoin 2019.

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And I started entering the rabbit hole, uh, 2019.

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I meet a great guy, Bitcoiner and a friend, Marco from Lebanon, who's the

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founder of the biggest, Bitcoin community in Lebanon, education community.

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And we started, I remember like, Like for weeks debating about like, you know, he's

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a maxi, he was a maxi, I wasn't one then.

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Um, a money maximist, let's sound money maximist, let's keep it, uh,

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let's clarify it now, it's 2024, we need to, we need to clarify, I guess.

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Um, and then I realized like, wow, this is really something.

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And I started converting all my other trad5 holdings to Bitcoin.

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Um, 2020, unfortunately, it was unfortunate for the COVID, uh, syndrome

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and impact on the world, but, uh, being home without traveling, made

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me discover that there was something called Clubhouse, which was like the

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early generation of Twitter spaces.

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I got educated by Max Hillebrand in a toxic way that I really loved it, man.

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I loved it.

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I loved every single hour, like it was like, it was like, I was so

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thirsty for learning and, um, started organizing sessions on Clubhouse

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for, to educate Bitcoin and Arabic 2020 weekly with Marco, that's.

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took off.

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And then, uh, back then I didn't know that, uh, Swan was, uh, on

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one of the clubs and they saw that I was organizing these sessions

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in Arabic every, every week.

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And they reached out and asked me how it's going.

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And like, if I'm interested in like, to do something further and back then, really,

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like even now, I don't, I, um, I work in a, in a family business, um, and I don't

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have time to do any real operational work, but I was like, I was so frustrated

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back then, you know, like you just like swallow the toxic orange pill where you

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see the, you're, you're, I think toxicity levels decreases over time and you keep,

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at least for me, uh, um, uh, a switch.

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Where you can switch it on.

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Uh, this is how I do it.

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I think like you can be a maxi gentleman, uh, without using the

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toxicity left, right and center.

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And then I was like, uh, what are you doing in the Middle East and Africa?

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Since you're asking, because like I, I know the market quite well.

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I know the, who are the players, the exchanges, the applications,

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and I know what's happening.

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And I was like, I ranted and vented and vomited it all on a call.

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And the guy was like, uh, maybe I think you should talk to Corey.

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I was like, okay, and taught me that you create your own reality, uh, in

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the sense where that's years ago, fast forward today, I do Bitcoin consulting,

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business consulting, uh, for, Bitcoin companies wanting to work in the Middle

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East and Africa, but most of my work is to onboard non Bitcoin companies onto

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Bitcoin through, um, acquiring Bitcoin, custodying Bitcoin, um, mining, point

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of sale, um, a la carte menu, kind of, if someone needs it, just because like

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during, through my work, which is, um, a fiat job nowadays, the, we're entering

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the, we're, we're diversifying into a Bitcoin, uh, business unit as well.

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That's all that I'm handling, but it exposes me to a lot of

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manufacturers, supply chain distributions, business owners.

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And yeah, it's been really mind blowing how you tell me like, what's the TLDR?

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It's just like how it all started.

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And Bitcoin just gives you, um, I mean, first off, you just want to do

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something a Bitcoin and, um, By the way, I did give a talk on the, one of the

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European meetups, the Antwerp Belgium meetups about how to find a job and to

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create your opportunities in Bitcoin.

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Like everyone wants to work on Bitcoin.

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Everyone wants to go on the website to look for jobs and Bitcoin companies.

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The best way, frankly, is to create your own.

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Um, because we're, we're not too many and we need each other.

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Um, and one thing that the TLDR of this thing is that basically every company

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would need someone who believes in a goal and an area, if you have an area

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of spec, uh, specialty of expertise, really just go do your homework

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and not start knocking on doors.

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If one doesn't work, the other will.

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That's it.

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Sorry for the longer TLDR.

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no, this is very interesting.

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There's a lot to unpack there.

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First of all, I'm curious what brought you to Angola in the first place.

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It's not a country that you just happened to end up in, I guess.

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Like, what brought you there?

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my fiat job is, I'm going to try not to talk myself much about this topic.

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It's just like Angola, uh, and the surrounding countries, Sub Saharan

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Africa is, um, is one of the operations we have, um, in my fiat job and,

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um, it's all supply chain based.

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Um, so yeah, this is, this is why.

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Um, like I'm based in Europe where the head offices are in Europe,

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but, uh, the arms of the business are in Africa and the Middle East.

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Okay, we won't dox you any further.

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Uh, I mean, that could mean literally anything from oil of

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Yulee to Barbie dolls to whatever.

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I don't know.

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Uh, so, uh, So let's not go there.

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Um, another thing that interests me, like the, the little I know about, uh,

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Islamic banking or, or like Arab banking is that, uh, I think it's taking interest,

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interest is sort of a sin in Islam.

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Isn't that the case?

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And it's, it's forbidden to, to, uh, give out loans and,

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uh, require interest payments.

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How does that work?

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so it's three parts or like, let's say four parts for first, Halal money in

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Islam is like avoiding Reba or interest.

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Like you mentioned, second is, um, this money to have

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an ethical business practice.

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Third is transparency and fairness.

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Transparency fourth and fairness, uh, sorry, transparency

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third and fairness fourth.

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So if you notice, like, if you, if you draw similarities with Bitcoin, if like

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from the creation of Bitcoin, from the code, the code is written in a fair way.

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The proof of work mining is done in a democratic, fair way, especially

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with the difficulty adjustment.

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Um, and the ethical business practices today, we know the illicit practices

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on fiat compared to Bitcoin, how it is and why Bitcoin prevents those illicit

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practices from, uh, from happening.

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So, so would you say Bitcoin is halal money?

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Yes, I say this, even though, disclaimer, I'm not a sheikh,

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even though we have a sheikh in the space called Muawiyah Tucker.

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You need to definitely, I don't know if you spoke with him.

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Uh, he's He is an official sheikh a teaching Sharia, et cetera.

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That's something else.

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Yeah.

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This is, this is, there's a, there are, there are a couple.

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There's also, uh, also, um, another, uh, bitcoin in this place called, uh, Muslim

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Bitcoin, who's also, uh, advocating a lot.

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And they both, both been, uh, writing papers, blogging, blogging about this.

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and there are even like, uh, I did some just by diving into the rabbit hole.

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Because, you know, when, when you just discover Bitcoin, you start asking

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questions, obvious questions, at least for me, like, why is the logo orange?

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Um, is it halal?

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Is anyone like, uh, has any sheikh or like any priest or any

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rabbi spoke about Bitcoin before?

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What did they do?

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Et cetera.

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And there are, um, there are a couple of, um, None, um, uh, let's

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say a couple of sheikhs and Islam, I think in Saudi Arabia and in Bahrain

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who have done lectures on YouTube about Bitcoin being halal in Arabic.

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And one of them has written a paper that I can share with you after the pod.

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Um, yeah, it's, it's quite interesting.

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I think today there's a lot.

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Uh, happening when it comes to, I mean, if you go to Dubai, you can see like

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from the airport, you see the, the, the crypto shitcoin area ads, um, welcoming

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you at the airport, uh, the highways.

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If you go on Twitter spaces, you see how Saudi Arabia, despite the non

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legislation is like booming when it comes to trading, et cetera, just because

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today they're using it as a property.

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Uh, not as, so today it's kind of, uh, unspoken halal property that everyone is

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using to trade regardless to huddle or to trade, like really, um, short term.

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Um, but you don't find any, anyone talking about money.

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And, uh, I know for a fact that I don't want to mention someone if they don't

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want to be mentioned, but I know for a fact that the mainstream media in the

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Arab world is refusing to talk about Bitcoin, comparing it to, like, talking

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about sound money on mainstream media.

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They are able, they are ready to speak about Bitcoin, the tech property,

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but don't bring up the sound money.

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yeah, there's, uh, proven, proven, uh, incidents or events where, um, people

229
00:16:18,757 --> 00:16:23,677
who went on TV shows who were able and more, more than capable to talk about

230
00:16:23,677 --> 00:16:27,237
the subject, they were requested not to speak about the sound money aspect of it.

231
00:16:27,931 --> 00:16:28,882
100%.

232
00:16:29,137 --> 00:16:31,967
that problem is sort of everywhere.

233
00:16:32,037 --> 00:16:36,887
I know they're for like, uh, this week when we reached a new all time high and

234
00:16:36,887 --> 00:16:42,907
stuff, the Bitcoin was mentioned in Sweden as well on, um, public service media.

235
00:16:43,517 --> 00:16:47,677
And, uh, of course they, they never talk about the, the sound money aspect.

236
00:16:48,277 --> 00:16:52,887
That's, that's just, it's mentioned like Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency, like

237
00:16:52,887 --> 00:16:57,247
implying that there are more, and this is purely speculative is something they

238
00:16:57,247 --> 00:17:01,807
say over and over again, never realizing that everything is purely speculative,

239
00:17:01,927 --> 00:17:04,447
uh, since value is subjective, right?

240
00:17:04,447 --> 00:17:09,206
So, so you never hear these, um, Other takes, you only hear it

241
00:17:09,236 --> 00:17:14,596
from the perspective of a statist Keynesian mindset, I guess.

242
00:18:08,739 --> 00:18:12,219
Hey, so maybe you can take us through a little bit about your experience

243
00:18:12,219 --> 00:18:18,539
with the general MEA Middle East Africa, um, kind of adoption there,

244
00:18:18,539 --> 00:18:22,229
because I know that that's one thing that you're heavily involved in here.

245
00:18:22,229 --> 00:18:23,734
Maybe, maybe a quick question.

246
00:18:23,984 --> 00:18:27,244
Sort of a combination for some, some background, like, like, what's

247
00:18:27,244 --> 00:18:32,004
your, what's been your experience with, with, uh, Bitcoin in, in these

248
00:18:32,014 --> 00:18:33,694
regions that you're working with?

249
00:18:34,453 --> 00:18:37,013
From a grassroots project, there's a lot happening.

250
00:18:37,293 --> 00:18:42,462
Um, and there are, evolution and challenges at the grassroots level.

251
00:18:42,832 --> 00:18:43,932
And we can dive into that.

252
00:18:44,342 --> 00:18:48,162
Uh, from a institutional level, there's a lot of evolution.

253
00:18:48,557 --> 00:18:52,647
Um, and from a regulatory point of view, there is, unfortunately, not much

254
00:18:52,647 --> 00:18:58,497
evolution except, um, in some of the, like, Dubai like cities, uh, we're talking

255
00:18:58,557 --> 00:19:02,697
about Bahrain, we're talking about Dubai, um, in particular Abu Dhabi and the UAE.

256
00:19:03,167 --> 00:19:05,547
And you have the religious perspective as well.

257
00:19:05,856 --> 00:19:09,946
now it depends if you're talking about the Middle East or Africa, that's about

258
00:19:09,946 --> 00:19:14,226
the, from the religious perspectives, mainly the Middle East, but for Africa in

259
00:19:14,226 --> 00:19:19,856
particular, man, the evolution happening there and the progress is mind blowing.

260
00:19:20,221 --> 00:19:25,771
Um, I mean, we met in Lugano, Knut, and compared to the African

261
00:19:25,781 --> 00:19:30,781
conferences, um, the, the conference I attended in September was in Ghana.

262
00:19:31,613 --> 00:19:37,293
The amount of energy people want to work on, on, on Bitcoin, the amount

263
00:19:37,293 --> 00:19:41,783
of developers working on Bitcoin, the, the initiatives of like.

264
00:19:42,323 --> 00:19:47,103
Coding, like incentivizing people to code on Bitcoin and to create like

265
00:19:47,113 --> 00:19:49,863
on ramps, off ramps is mind blowing.

266
00:19:49,993 --> 00:19:52,423
Um, so I would start with Africa.

267
00:19:52,423 --> 00:19:57,204
Africa is I think that the leading, leading continent in

268
00:19:57,294 --> 00:19:59,414
adoption, but also development.

269
00:20:00,054 --> 00:20:06,714
Um, and this comes from a simple idea is that if Bitcoin is stopped

270
00:20:06,744 --> 00:20:12,229
for any reason, In Europe, from a legislation point of view, I'm

271
00:20:12,229 --> 00:20:13,509
talking because it cannot be stopped.

272
00:20:13,539 --> 00:20:18,139
We all know that, uh, or in the West, nothing will change for the Westerners,

273
00:20:18,959 --> 00:20:24,889
but if, uh, Bitcoin is like, let's just, from a legislation point of

274
00:20:24,889 --> 00:20:26,909
view, try to be stopped in Africa.

275
00:20:27,214 --> 00:20:29,404
The Africans won't allow it to stop.

276
00:20:30,154 --> 00:20:33,334
Um, today they need Bitcoin more than anything else.

277
00:20:33,684 --> 00:20:38,084
They, I mean, there's today also the, the split between some are like,

278
00:20:38,524 --> 00:20:41,794
uh, complete hodling and some are like with the medium of exchange.

279
00:20:41,794 --> 00:20:47,721
And Africa is needs Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, uh, more than a store of value.

280
00:20:47,741 --> 00:20:52,121
Of course, store of value helps you in a highly inflationary environment.

281
00:20:52,431 --> 00:20:58,761
But if, for example, like Angola or Sierra Leone or South Africa, 70 percent

282
00:20:58,761 --> 00:21:04,871
of the market is informal markets, which means, um, you have most of the trade,

283
00:21:04,931 --> 00:21:06,871
commercial trade, the food and non food.

284
00:21:07,046 --> 00:21:10,686
It's happening on the streets, on tables, on the ground, like the mamas and papas

285
00:21:10,706 --> 00:21:15,416
are just like putting their shampoos next to their oils and cereals, etc.

286
00:21:15,416 --> 00:21:16,466
And you go buy from there.

287
00:21:16,476 --> 00:21:19,906
This is what 70 percent of the population does.

288
00:21:20,636 --> 00:21:22,056
And you have public markets everywhere.

289
00:21:23,036 --> 00:21:29,726
Now, the governments want these traders or these ladies to register

290
00:21:29,726 --> 00:21:32,756
their VAT or their tax registration.

291
00:21:33,291 --> 00:21:36,171
And they want them to start invoicing customers.

292
00:21:36,501 --> 00:21:41,761
Some have, believe it or not, those ladies that might be selling something on a table

293
00:21:41,861 --> 00:21:45,891
might own multiple shops in the back, and they have a lot of money, and they

294
00:21:45,891 --> 00:21:51,511
can afford going through the registration process, but this is the minority of

295
00:21:51,511 --> 00:21:54,581
those, um, traders on the streets.

296
00:21:55,101 --> 00:22:00,886
What I'm trying to say here is, like, as a medium of exchange, these These traders,

297
00:22:00,916 --> 00:22:08,826
these commercial business women and mainly ladies in Africa, they cannot register

298
00:22:09,166 --> 00:22:15,186
for taxes just because they live in the slums and every time there is rain, they

299
00:22:15,186 --> 00:22:17,606
will be changing their house every season.

300
00:22:18,641 --> 00:22:24,331
This is how informal the African continent still is, even though

301
00:22:24,771 --> 00:22:28,011
you go as a tourist and you go, you see the nice places, et cetera.

302
00:22:28,061 --> 00:22:32,161
But Africa has so much potential and they need Bitcoin.

303
00:22:32,162 --> 00:22:35,421
And this is why M Pesa exponentially grew there.

304
00:22:35,421 --> 00:22:40,471
This is why you see all these innovations on Bitcoin using mobile

305
00:22:40,611 --> 00:22:44,901
phones in Africa, because this is really the core need for Africa today.

306
00:22:45,511 --> 00:22:50,476
So from an adoption today, it's It's very, um, it's very young.

307
00:22:50,706 --> 00:22:55,456
Um, I wouldn't say premature to try anything at this stage.

308
00:22:55,496 --> 00:22:58,486
I think there's a lot of innovation and development happening.

309
00:22:58,776 --> 00:23:03,496
Like if you see a Cassie in South Africa, or if you see, um, a Bitcoin

310
00:23:03,497 --> 00:23:05,986
Dua in Ghana or a Bitcoin Dada in Kenya.

311
00:23:06,586 --> 00:23:07,976
They're doing great work.

312
00:23:08,186 --> 00:23:13,586
Uh, each of them is trying to educate and trying to, to work around, like to create

313
00:23:13,616 --> 00:23:17,816
a circular economy where, where, where they're working and they are progressing,

314
00:23:18,346 --> 00:23:22,697
but without the support, of the rest of the Bitcoiners around the world, this

315
00:23:22,707 --> 00:23:25,007
is not really gonna take off, I think.

316
00:23:25,282 --> 00:23:29,092
Um, and this is another story, but yeah, this is for, for Africa

317
00:23:29,092 --> 00:23:30,302
from an adoption point of view.

318
00:23:31,140 --> 00:23:34,120
yeah, I don't know if you want to learn more about, uh, the Middle East, we

319
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:39,700
can, but I think Africa is the most interesting developing, um, location

320
00:23:39,700 --> 00:23:41,990
for, for Bitcoin adoption nowadays.

321
00:23:42,805 --> 00:23:48,665
Yeah, yeah, and, uh, uh, Africans really have the chance to leapfrog everyone else

322
00:23:48,665 --> 00:23:51,895
here by, by, by being faster on the ball.

323
00:23:51,895 --> 00:23:58,472
It's, and it's a, it's beautiful because it's, uh, Uh, well, for lack of a better

324
00:23:58,472 --> 00:24:05,392
word, revenge for 50 years of failed politics trying to solve their problems.

325
00:24:05,572 --> 00:24:11,142
Um, so, um, uh, yeah, a lot of exciting stuff happening there.

326
00:24:11,202 --> 00:24:17,704
And, and these, uh, miners, Providing electricity to places that otherwise

327
00:24:17,714 --> 00:24:22,414
wouldn't have any chance of getting on any type of grid, I find that

328
00:24:22,604 --> 00:24:27,504
extremely fascinating too, and as you say, it's going fast, and I think

329
00:24:27,504 --> 00:24:32,874
we've just seen, like, the snowball start to roll down the hill, and it's

330
00:24:33,104 --> 00:24:35,817
only gonna get bigger, and it's gonna

331
00:24:36,098 --> 00:24:36,828
Absolutely.

332
00:24:36,868 --> 00:24:42,778
Um, talking about miners, uh, when you, when you see what, uh, gridless is doing

333
00:24:42,788 --> 00:24:48,398
in Kenya and Africa is amazing, but it's unfortunate there's a divide between West

334
00:24:48,398 --> 00:24:53,798
Africa and East Africa from a regulatory maturity in my opinion, or wisdom.

335
00:24:54,098 --> 00:24:55,388
Uh, for example, Angola.

336
00:24:56,798 --> 00:25:01,798
who has 97 percent of Angolan energy is hydro.

337
00:25:02,808 --> 00:25:08,198
More than 65 percent of the Angolan energy produced from hydro is in excess

338
00:25:08,238 --> 00:25:11,558
abundance, so no one is, uh, absorbing it.

339
00:25:12,348 --> 00:25:15,308
And they banned proof of work in December 2023.

340
00:25:16,118 --> 00:25:18,068
So, this is just an example.

341
00:25:18,683 --> 00:25:25,433
of a country that had one of the cheapest electricity on the globe in abundance,

342
00:25:25,981 --> 00:25:31,391
where it can serve the rural and the urban areas because in Africa, even the urban

343
00:25:31,391 --> 00:25:33,131
areas need some development, et cetera.

344
00:25:33,811 --> 00:25:38,161
What you're saying is that is indeed fascinating for the governments who

345
00:25:38,171 --> 00:25:41,202
really, understood the benefits from it.

346
00:25:41,582 --> 00:25:47,374
But, uh, some other countries with greater, unique value proposition

347
00:25:47,394 --> 00:25:49,324
or advantage to start mining.

348
00:25:49,884 --> 00:25:53,604
are just like shooting, shooting their, their selves in the foot, unfortunately.

349
00:25:54,148 --> 00:25:58,868
Malawi, uh, same, uh Latitude as Angola.

350
00:25:59,202 --> 00:26:01,362
there's a facility there, I know.

351
00:26:01,442 --> 00:26:05,012
Uh, a couple of our friends were there visiting, uh, and

352
00:26:05,012 --> 00:26:06,062
they started up something.

353
00:26:06,572 --> 00:26:09,942
So, things are happening all over the place, it seems.

354
00:26:10,379 --> 00:26:14,369
Yes, Bhutan, Bhutan is, is growing big time as well.

355
00:26:14,459 --> 00:26:19,569
Like Ethiopia, uh, Ethiopia is also, I mean, Hashlabs, the guys are doing great,

356
00:26:19,689 --> 00:26:21,549
great work in, in Ethiopia as well.

357
00:26:22,009 --> 00:26:23,939
Um, I mean, everyone is scouting, right?

358
00:26:23,999 --> 00:26:27,079
Everyone is scouting for countries with cheap electricity, but the

359
00:26:27,659 --> 00:26:32,069
many, few, or many are scouting for, for cheap electricity and

360
00:26:32,069 --> 00:26:34,339
few are scouting for cheap.

361
00:26:34,494 --> 00:26:39,654
properties, real estates with like, uh, really like a waterfall or some

362
00:26:39,754 --> 00:26:44,722
green energy kind of, innovation they can build on to, to mine and really

363
00:26:44,722 --> 00:26:47,002
develop the area where they will be based

364
00:26:47,642 --> 00:26:49,432
Yeah, fascinating continent.

365
00:26:49,482 --> 00:26:50,922
It's a land of opportunity.

366
00:26:50,982 --> 00:26:54,322
Uh, always has been in a way, but especially like in times like

367
00:26:54,322 --> 00:26:58,432
these when, when there's a whole new industry to be explored here.

368
00:26:58,552 --> 00:27:00,632
Um, fascinating.

369
00:27:00,702 --> 00:27:01,142
percent.

370
00:27:01,742 --> 00:27:07,517
Um, like for me, um, the, um, My experience, like when I go, I

371
00:27:07,517 --> 00:27:10,677
started like orange Bitcoin left, right and center like all of us.

372
00:27:10,717 --> 00:27:16,977
And then I noticed like one thing that's been working in Africa with manufacturers,

373
00:27:17,077 --> 00:27:21,820
um, or business owners, just from a mining perspective is mining is legal.

374
00:27:22,330 --> 00:27:26,100
Just explore, um, the, the homework of like, to know how

375
00:27:26,100 --> 00:27:27,650
much electricity do they have?

376
00:27:27,650 --> 00:27:29,270
How much electricity do they consume?

377
00:27:29,270 --> 00:27:31,177
How much, the cost of electricity.

378
00:27:31,407 --> 00:27:35,766
And just, Convince them to put a miner to transform a cost center into

379
00:27:35,766 --> 00:27:37,136
a profit center in their business.

380
00:27:37,786 --> 00:27:41,356
One miner becomes two and two becomes five and five becomes ten.

381
00:27:41,366 --> 00:27:43,686
And then I was like, Oh, I need to buy more Bitcoin because I don't

382
00:27:43,696 --> 00:27:45,796
have space for miners in my business.

383
00:27:46,084 --> 00:27:49,634
yeah, this is, I think the, it's unfortunate.

384
00:27:49,634 --> 00:27:51,704
Like the, the adoption, it's.

385
00:27:52,389 --> 00:27:57,149
is accelerating from my view for the small to medium business owners,

386
00:27:57,269 --> 00:27:59,229
um, in Africa and the Middle East.

387
00:27:59,259 --> 00:28:02,839
Um, uh, but not for the individual.

388
00:28:02,879 --> 00:28:04,779
I'm talking from a mining perspective.

389
00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:07,870
Fascinating you should mention Bahrain there before.

390
00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:13,440
I spent some time there, but my family used to live there, and I used to

391
00:28:13,460 --> 00:28:15,810
semi live there, or I was on and off.

392
00:28:15,810 --> 00:28:20,890
I was working on boats at the time, and so I was like out for six weeks, and then

393
00:28:20,890 --> 00:28:24,990
I spent like four weeks in Bahrain maybe, and then two weeks in Sweden or something.

394
00:28:25,631 --> 00:28:27,921
So, and it's a fascinating place.

395
00:28:28,995 --> 00:28:34,435
From what I know, they recently converted from an emirate to a kingdom, I think.

396
00:28:34,515 --> 00:28:39,604
Uh, so, so, um, what do you know about the regulations and stuff there?

397
00:28:39,604 --> 00:28:42,564
It's, it's a bit more liberal than Saudi Arabia.

398
00:28:42,564 --> 00:28:43,324
I know that much.

399
00:28:43,324 --> 00:28:47,614
It may be not as liberal as, as Dubai, but, uh, somewhere in between.

400
00:28:48,129 --> 00:28:49,161
what, what's going on?

401
00:28:49,781 --> 00:28:55,401
Uh, from a liberal point of view or liberalism, uh, is something,

402
00:28:55,541 --> 00:28:56,681
liberty point of view.

403
00:28:57,412 --> 00:29:02,012
listen, uh, I once heard like one saying, like, if you don't have a gay

404
00:29:02,132 --> 00:29:05,422
parade on the street of a country, that means you don't have liberty.

405
00:29:06,067 --> 00:29:13,437
Um, and, uh, at the same time, uh, liberty, uh, sphere of speech, et cetera.

406
00:29:13,617 --> 00:29:17,142
Now We're going to talk about what's happening in the region.

407
00:29:17,542 --> 00:29:18,112
Today.

408
00:29:18,652 --> 00:29:23,372
Um, there is a competition between Dubai or the UAE and

409
00:29:23,372 --> 00:29:25,782
United Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

410
00:29:26,082 --> 00:29:26,412
Okay.

411
00:29:26,762 --> 00:29:31,802
So Kingdom Saudi Arabia decided, uh, last year to have this vision that they want

412
00:29:31,802 --> 00:29:34,532
to be the leading city in the Middle East.

413
00:29:34,612 --> 00:29:38,682
Um, like one of their regions, uh, one of their areas in the, in Saudi.

414
00:29:39,012 --> 00:29:42,202
Um, they want to convert it into really like a mind blowing

415
00:29:42,202 --> 00:29:43,612
futuristic kind of city.

416
00:29:44,312 --> 00:29:47,762
Um, and of course, before that vision, you had Dubai in the Middle East

417
00:29:47,772 --> 00:29:49,712
that had a similar kind of view.

418
00:29:49,752 --> 00:29:52,122
And today you have a competition between both.

419
00:29:52,632 --> 00:29:53,192
Um,

420
00:29:53,377 --> 00:29:54,277
Neom, right?

421
00:29:54,682 --> 00:29:55,312
yes, correct.

422
00:29:55,342 --> 00:29:55,762
Correct.

423
00:29:55,822 --> 00:30:01,122
Neon is one of the, yeah, is, is, is DCT that got the marketing and the, the

424
00:30:01,122 --> 00:30:05,762
spotlights about how things are, um, expected to be, et cetera, like you have.

425
00:30:06,722 --> 00:30:11,612
Like, I don't know, like flying cars and like schools and hospitals, like

426
00:30:11,622 --> 00:30:15,202
above each other on a horizontal line in the desert, like really mind blowing

427
00:30:15,202 --> 00:30:16,582
from an architecture point of view.

428
00:30:17,042 --> 00:30:19,802
But let's see about that with like all like the budget was

429
00:30:19,812 --> 00:30:21,802
about like 60 billion or something

430
00:30:22,032 --> 00:30:23,932
It's a very fiat y project though.

431
00:30:24,042 --> 00:30:26,502
It's like central planning all over the place, right?

432
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,730
a hundred percent, like, okay.

433
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:37,290
So, um, I don't think the, the Middle East or Africa is getting

434
00:30:37,290 --> 00:30:38,410
away from central planning.

435
00:30:38,620 --> 00:30:39,480
Any time soon.

436
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:40,440
Okay.

437
00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:46,020
Unfortunately, uh, from a freedom footprint point of view, I think

438
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:51,360
things are getting better in some areas that have witnessed already some,

439
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,390
um, uh, oppression over the years.

440
00:30:54,390 --> 00:30:57,845
However, There are other areas like Lebanon, Syria,

441
00:30:57,895 --> 00:30:59,915
Palestine, Egypt with Sudan.

442
00:30:59,955 --> 00:31:01,715
Things are getting worse and worse.

443
00:31:02,375 --> 00:31:06,995
And you have the oil rich countries like Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the UAE

444
00:31:07,005 --> 00:31:11,695
that are really working on the regulatory point of view that to actuate and open to

445
00:31:11,695 --> 00:31:16,975
absorb basically the international, uh, investment, um, when it comes to Bitcoin.

446
00:31:17,377 --> 00:31:21,217
Bahrain is one of the leading ones, I think, after the UAE.

447
00:31:21,502 --> 00:31:27,748
So you have Dubai first, Abu Dhabi second, Bahrain maybe third, but despite

448
00:31:27,828 --> 00:31:33,131
all the, what you read on the media, that even Dubai, let's talk only about

449
00:31:33,131 --> 00:31:37,281
Dubai just because for you to understand what I'm talking about, today you have

450
00:31:37,741 --> 00:31:42,721
Bitcoin companies who've been, who went and opened offices in Dubai a year ago,

451
00:31:42,721 --> 00:31:48,131
recruited, uh, opened bank accounts with a lot of like, um, headache doing it,

452
00:31:48,181 --> 00:31:50,151
and they still didn't get their license.

453
00:31:51,011 --> 00:31:53,691
And it's been like 360 days since they applied.

454
00:31:54,341 --> 00:31:59,901
Now today in Dubai, and we're talking about the most open city slash, um,

455
00:31:59,931 --> 00:32:03,921
country in, in the world that should be really absorbed, be open minded

456
00:32:03,931 --> 00:32:08,991
about, about Bitcoin and absorbing the, the businesses and individuals.

457
00:32:09,511 --> 00:32:12,711
Today, if you are a business, and I spoke with compliance departments

458
00:32:12,721 --> 00:32:15,761
and banks trying to convince them of like Bitcoin, et cetera.

459
00:32:16,161 --> 00:32:19,791
You have, you might read that a bank is really Bitcoin friendly.

460
00:32:19,791 --> 00:32:24,181
You go, uh, they tell you, yes, it's crypto friendly or Bitcoin friendly.

461
00:32:24,191 --> 00:32:25,881
You open a bank account as a business.

462
00:32:25,881 --> 00:32:29,977
I'm talking at the moment, you're going to receive a transaction, from,

463
00:32:30,007 --> 00:32:32,677
um, A buying or selling Bitcoin.

464
00:32:33,017 --> 00:32:35,527
Let's say you have sister companies in Africa and you want to just

465
00:32:35,547 --> 00:32:38,097
transfer because like doing your own treasury management.

466
00:32:38,612 --> 00:32:43,462
you go through, um, a very long, difficult process.

467
00:32:43,858 --> 00:32:48,158
now apparently there are some new banks that are trying to make it easier

468
00:32:48,158 --> 00:32:49,918
for you, from a banking perspective.

469
00:32:50,268 --> 00:32:53,948
From a licensing perspective, Today depends what you want to do.

470
00:32:53,998 --> 00:32:56,498
Um, and it applies also the same in Bahrain.

471
00:32:56,925 --> 00:33:01,965
today you have, and you can notice from the couple of exchanges in the region,

472
00:33:01,965 --> 00:33:06,365
you have a couple of exchanges that are, you don't have Bitcoin only exchanges

473
00:33:06,375 --> 00:33:08,285
for a fact, unfortunately, not yet.

474
00:33:08,626 --> 00:33:13,096
but the exchanges you have, uh, have only few as a few, like

475
00:33:13,096 --> 00:33:15,016
couple of crypto and only Bitcoin.

476
00:33:15,564 --> 00:33:16,934
Um, if you want to.

477
00:33:17,094 --> 00:33:20,904
Uh, open a business today in the Middle East, um, you need to really

478
00:33:20,924 --> 00:33:24,984
find, uh, because you have, uh, it depends on your business model

479
00:33:25,024 --> 00:33:26,614
that you have different licenses.

480
00:33:26,923 --> 00:33:31,780
and if you read just the law, it's, it's really crazy how they've,

481
00:33:31,780 --> 00:33:35,730
they're, they're trying to regulate everything from wallets to exchanges.

482
00:33:36,435 --> 00:33:40,115
To if you're minting or not, if you're holding custody or not,

483
00:33:40,195 --> 00:33:44,744
if you, if you are just a normal startup, you're not holding custody.

484
00:33:44,744 --> 00:33:48,834
If let's say you're creating a Bitcoin app, right, where you can integrate

485
00:33:48,864 --> 00:33:53,234
with other applications, um, you can't open a normal bank account.

486
00:33:53,234 --> 00:33:55,144
You need to go through a specific directory.

487
00:33:55,944 --> 00:33:56,624
a process.

488
00:33:57,075 --> 00:34:00,535
So it's still good, better than other areas where they really don't

489
00:34:00,545 --> 00:34:02,285
allow you to do anything, to be fair.

490
00:34:02,395 --> 00:34:06,565
Um, we're still early because when you talk to banks, they don't have a clue

491
00:34:06,565 --> 00:34:08,725
still about what we're talking about.

492
00:34:08,795 --> 00:34:13,155
Um, but yeah, I had the same conversation with Portuguese banks,

493
00:34:13,205 --> 00:34:17,785
uh, of companies operating in Angola, trying to move their liquidity through

494
00:34:17,825 --> 00:34:22,111
Bitcoin, with a Portuguese bank that they have in Angola and Portugal.

495
00:34:22,521 --> 00:34:23,971
And the Portuguese bank didn't.

496
00:34:24,116 --> 00:34:28,126
like new or at least they didn't tell me that they acted really idiots

497
00:34:28,146 --> 00:34:33,468
not understanding what, uh, what's the Portuguese, crypto legislation.

498
00:34:33,988 --> 00:34:37,988
So I went on online on chatgpt for like three hours meeting with the

499
00:34:37,988 --> 00:34:41,878
CFO of a company and the compliance department in Lisbon, Portugal, copy

500
00:34:41,908 --> 00:34:45,008
pasting their own legislation, telling you, like telling them, listen, guys.

501
00:34:45,428 --> 00:34:51,018
Your country has some legislation about cryptocurrency and you can apply that.

502
00:34:51,128 --> 00:34:54,838
And they started asking about like, how can you trace Bitcoin transactions?

503
00:34:54,878 --> 00:35:00,398
Like things are, and, and, and I was like, even, um, having a conversation with your

504
00:35:00,408 --> 00:35:06,233
friend, Jeff Booth, Knut, asking him like, are they stupid or are they playing dumb?

505
00:35:07,083 --> 00:35:10,393
And he was like, I think they're playing dumb just because

506
00:35:10,523 --> 00:35:11,933
a bit of both I think.

507
00:35:12,335 --> 00:35:18,265
but when you're talking about with like people, uh, that are not boomers who've

508
00:35:18,265 --> 00:35:23,405
been in this space and who have read few things, you imagine there's a minimum.

509
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:29,200
Um, I think today that the world don't, I mean, as much as they have

510
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,200
the ETF and they're happy with the ETF and the banks are gonna, are

511
00:35:33,510 --> 00:35:35,340
marketing Bitcoin as a good thing.

512
00:35:36,420 --> 00:35:40,980
I'm, uh, more on the conservative, pessimistic side from a

513
00:35:40,980 --> 00:35:42,570
legislation point of view.

514
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:50,115
Um, I'm Over time, long term, as much as I'm hugely, um, uh, bullish on

515
00:35:50,125 --> 00:35:56,455
Bitcoin, I am, uh, I'm a sole money maximalist, uh, but I'm very pessimistic

516
00:35:56,495 --> 00:35:59,535
about the future, unfortunately, when it comes to real legislations, et

517
00:35:59,535 --> 00:36:01,935
cetera, and seeing the CBDCs happening.

518
00:36:02,345 --> 00:36:06,125
Abu Dhabi, for example, is working on a CBDC to go hand in hand with the

519
00:36:06,125 --> 00:36:08,325
Chinese CBDC in specific, for example.

520
00:36:08,465 --> 00:36:10,575
And Abu Dhabi has the central bank of the UAE.

521
00:36:10,989 --> 00:36:14,939
And you keep thinking about all these things, like how, like, okay, we're happy

522
00:36:14,939 --> 00:36:16,969
with the price going up great, but like

523
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,940
There is another perspective though, and that is that these regulations

524
00:36:20,940 --> 00:36:25,490
are, are forcing people to actually adopt a Bitcoin standard and do

525
00:36:25,490 --> 00:36:29,910
business on Bitcoin without involving banks or governments or anything like

526
00:36:29,910 --> 00:36:34,396
that, because a business on a Bitcoin standard doesn't have to be a Anything.

527
00:36:34,406 --> 00:36:35,896
You don't have to do any paperwork.

528
00:36:35,896 --> 00:36:39,506
It can be a Telegram group or a Nostr chat, you know?

529
00:36:39,966 --> 00:36:43,586
So, uh, uh, So, it is unstoppable in that sense.

530
00:36:43,586 --> 00:36:48,172
If you, if you, if you really use it, the way you can.

531
00:36:48,202 --> 00:36:51,922
And there are tools like Wasabi, for instance, and CoinJoints and stuff.

532
00:36:51,922 --> 00:36:57,512
You can, you can be completely private, and you can be completely independent.

533
00:36:57,512 --> 00:37:01,472
And that, uh, At the end of the day, that's the point of the whole thing,

534
00:37:01,912 --> 00:37:05,872
because it can't be permissionless if it needs permission from people,

535
00:37:05,932 --> 00:37:11,522
like, either it is permissionless or not, and, uh, it can't really compete

536
00:37:11,562 --> 00:37:15,257
with any other currency or, or asset.

537
00:37:15,617 --> 00:37:18,987
If it isn't, it needs to be outside of the law.

538
00:37:19,007 --> 00:37:24,907
It needs to be independent from what any human being, regardless if it's

539
00:37:24,907 --> 00:37:30,097
an emir, a king, or a president, or a, you know, a prime minister.

540
00:37:30,797 --> 00:37:34,037
Bitcoin needs to not give a fuck about that.

541
00:37:34,422 --> 00:37:38,102
Like, and, uh, and that's, that's a feature, not a bug.

542
00:37:38,602 --> 00:37:42,292
So, so I think what they're, what, what they're really achieving with all of

543
00:37:42,292 --> 00:37:46,812
this, especially when the threatening with CBDCs and stuff is that they're pushing

544
00:37:46,822 --> 00:37:50,179
everyone with a brain out away from.

545
00:37:50,624 --> 00:37:53,304
The legacy systems and on to this new standard.

546
00:37:53,750 --> 00:37:58,108
and I, uh, I take the, the more optimistic view.

547
00:37:58,258 --> 00:38:03,978
We have, you know, these, uh, Riverside here, or Zoom calls or video

548
00:38:03,978 --> 00:38:08,538
conferencing, we have social media, including Nostr, which is sort of

549
00:38:08,538 --> 00:38:12,798
unstoppable, uh, and we have Bitcoin, which is very much unstoppable.

550
00:38:12,998 --> 00:38:14,978
Um, so we're unstoppable.

551
00:38:15,133 --> 00:38:17,373
They, they can't stop this from happening.

552
00:38:17,773 --> 00:38:22,823
And sure, they can make martyrs out of this or that bitcoiner.

553
00:38:23,263 --> 00:38:29,463
They can imprison this or that guy, but on the whole, uh, there will be a

554
00:38:29,583 --> 00:38:33,743
segment of the world population that just don't have to care about this.

555
00:38:33,943 --> 00:38:35,073
laws and regulations.

556
00:38:35,123 --> 00:38:42,613
Just as, um, I guess the, the, uh, central bankers and, uh, quote unquote

557
00:38:42,623 --> 00:38:46,563
diplomats of the world don't have to care about laws and regulations right now.

558
00:38:46,583 --> 00:38:49,493
Like the, the so called elites, which is just basically the

559
00:38:49,503 --> 00:38:50,703
most successful thieves.

560
00:38:51,413 --> 00:38:58,053
Uh, but we're, we're creating a new global class of citizenry here that doesn't

561
00:38:58,063 --> 00:39:04,193
have to care about Um, what about laws the way, um, you know, legacy people do?

562
00:39:04,624 --> 00:39:06,164
a hundred percent, a hundred percent.

563
00:39:06,314 --> 00:39:13,244
But I think my frustration comes from stems from, um, the lack of the effort.

564
00:39:13,244 --> 00:39:14,834
I mean, there, there are a lot of efforts.

565
00:39:14,834 --> 00:39:15,584
Don't get me wrong.

566
00:39:15,624 --> 00:39:16,194
Just like.

567
00:39:16,529 --> 00:39:18,289
There's a lot of development happening.

568
00:39:18,319 --> 00:39:22,553
Like, yeah, we need to develop this, wallet 2.

569
00:39:22,553 --> 00:39:23,223
0.

570
00:39:23,233 --> 00:39:28,503
We need to develop this, uh, solution, uh, second, third layer, etc.

571
00:39:28,503 --> 00:39:29,643
It's all good for Bitcoin.

572
00:39:29,983 --> 00:39:32,603
But when it comes to Middle East and Africa.

573
00:39:32,643 --> 00:39:35,513
When I talk about Middle East and Africa, I'm not talking about the rich

574
00:39:35,533 --> 00:39:40,373
countries like Nigeria, the, or I'm talking about Dubai or Saudi Arabia.

575
00:39:40,483 --> 00:39:43,633
I'm talking about really the poor countries that really

576
00:39:43,633 --> 00:39:45,103
need Bitcoin as Bitcoin.

577
00:39:45,524 --> 00:39:52,386
today, in order to, use Bitcoin or to feel To build resilience for the people

578
00:39:52,386 --> 00:39:56,666
because we understand Bitcoin, but like it took you thousands of hours or hundreds

579
00:39:56,666 --> 00:40:02,556
of hours to be where you are today, but the normal business owner convincing

580
00:40:02,556 --> 00:40:09,356
him today with, um, with Bitcoin, it got much more difficult with the ordinals.

581
00:40:09,726 --> 00:40:10,956
Uh, that's one thing.

582
00:40:11,376 --> 00:40:17,006
Um, second thing, um, we need to, like, in order to, like what you said

583
00:40:17,016 --> 00:40:22,926
about like, um, Bitcoin doesn't care, doesn't, doesn't give a fuck by design.

584
00:40:24,306 --> 00:40:31,036
if those individuals can't spend their Bitcoin to buy their needs, they really,

585
00:40:31,086 --> 00:40:34,866
they don't really need to see the benefits from it other than store of value.

586
00:40:35,616 --> 00:40:36,676
Remittances, yes.

587
00:40:36,886 --> 00:40:40,386
To receive it from their diaspora from outside their continent where they

588
00:40:40,386 --> 00:40:41,986
have billions, millions and billions.

589
00:40:41,986 --> 00:40:42,206
Yes.

590
00:40:42,206 --> 00:40:42,596
Okay.

591
00:40:43,146 --> 00:40:47,826
But today it's very crucial to really accelerate a circular

592
00:40:47,826 --> 00:40:49,786
economy for these areas.

593
00:40:49,816 --> 00:40:52,196
And I think there are a couple of initiatives happening around the

594
00:40:52,196 --> 00:40:54,356
world that would only help that.

595
00:40:54,576 --> 00:40:58,726
Once you have a circular economy, um, I'm not talking about the on

596
00:40:58,726 --> 00:41:00,486
ramps we have, like Bitrefill.

597
00:41:00,526 --> 00:41:03,646
I'm talking about really the, like normal businesses.

598
00:41:03,646 --> 00:41:03,686
Yeah.

599
00:41:03,701 --> 00:41:08,351
To really accept, uh, Bitcoin for, from anything to anything really,

600
00:41:08,671 --> 00:41:12,611
that would help and they would, that would help feel the communities that

601
00:41:12,621 --> 00:41:16,641
they can adopt Bitcoin and to use it without going through the fiat on ramp

602
00:41:17,521 --> 00:41:22,196
until we get that, we still rely on the continent, still rely on the region,

603
00:41:22,196 --> 00:41:27,966
still rely on the banks, even like today you have unbanked people in Africa,

604
00:41:28,246 --> 00:41:31,396
but some share, uh, M Pesa account.

605
00:41:31,496 --> 00:41:32,976
Some share a SIM card today.

606
00:41:33,171 --> 00:41:37,061
In Africa, just because they can't handle the fees, et cetera.

607
00:41:37,401 --> 00:41:42,146
So, self sovereignty, they need to feel like they can survive.

608
00:41:42,196 --> 00:41:48,416
They can thrive from medical services to foods, to travel using Bitcoin.

609
00:41:48,909 --> 00:41:53,259
if they don't know about Bitrefill or any other, uh, option, that's, that's

610
00:41:53,269 --> 00:41:55,359
also, um, a problem until today.

611
00:41:56,265 --> 00:41:56,735
Yeah.

612
00:41:56,785 --> 00:42:01,255
So, um, that's like, we have to keep pushing the mantra, accept

613
00:42:01,425 --> 00:42:02,735
Bitcoin for your goods and services.

614
00:42:02,785 --> 00:42:04,465
That's, that's the most crucial thing.

615
00:42:05,026 --> 00:42:06,461
if you do, then you help people.

616
00:42:06,611 --> 00:42:09,201
Then you help this thing happen, regardless of where you're from or

617
00:42:09,201 --> 00:42:10,871
where you happen to be in the world.

618
00:43:28,109 --> 00:43:33,889
So you mentioned that, you mentioned the, the ordinals thing being a barrier

619
00:43:33,889 --> 00:43:38,269
to adoption for businesses, like they see that and it makes it more difficult.

620
00:43:38,289 --> 00:43:39,389
Can you explain that a little bit?

621
00:43:39,822 --> 00:43:45,102
I mean, uh, they don't, like, no one heard of ordinals in Africa.

622
00:43:45,122 --> 00:43:48,982
I mean, at least the people who I see and work with.

623
00:43:49,214 --> 00:43:52,384
but the impact of the ordinance and the transaction fees.

624
00:43:52,524 --> 00:43:53,614
They know of that.

625
00:43:53,944 --> 00:43:58,364
And, um, of course now that it got better than before, because like

626
00:43:58,404 --> 00:44:01,964
the, with the hype a couple of months back, it was just ridiculous.

627
00:44:02,434 --> 00:44:02,794
Yes.

628
00:44:02,794 --> 00:44:05,404
It was an opportunity to onboard them on Lightning and to explain

629
00:44:05,404 --> 00:44:06,484
what Lightning is, et cetera.

630
00:44:06,484 --> 00:44:10,108
But frankly speaking, When you're talking to a business owner who's like

631
00:44:10,621 --> 00:44:14,761
in his 40s or something, his 20s or something, but when you're talking for

632
00:44:14,761 --> 00:44:17,771
someone in his 60s, just explaining something very simple, you don't

633
00:44:17,771 --> 00:44:19,261
want to, you want to keep it simple.

634
00:44:20,101 --> 00:44:25,691
They don't want to dive into the intricacies of lightning and if

635
00:44:25,691 --> 00:44:27,731
they need privacy for liquid or not.

636
00:44:27,751 --> 00:44:30,441
And they're like, Opening channels, et cetera.

637
00:44:30,441 --> 00:44:30,951
No.

638
00:44:31,471 --> 00:44:35,761
So they, they heard that Bitcoin has a, they can transfer money for cheap,

639
00:44:35,761 --> 00:44:38,731
they can wait 10 minutes or like 15 minutes or whatever for, to get

640
00:44:38,731 --> 00:44:42,241
their $101,000 or, or 10 K or 20 K.

641
00:44:42,901 --> 00:44:47,071
They want that and they hear it's, it's been the most secure

642
00:44:47,131 --> 00:44:49,231
network to transact on for them.

643
00:44:49,231 --> 00:44:53,341
They don't care about the, the speed, as long as it's cheap and secure.

644
00:44:53,341 --> 00:44:55,261
They don't wanna trust a third party.

645
00:44:55,356 --> 00:44:55,706
Great.

646
00:44:56,951 --> 00:44:59,851
But with the ordinals, it only made that more difficult.

647
00:44:59,961 --> 00:45:06,906
Now, yes, maybe history and block size war taught us that it only accelerates

648
00:45:06,906 --> 00:45:10,086
the development of layer 2s, layer 3s, to make things better, blah, blah,

649
00:45:10,086 --> 00:45:11,846
blah, yes, yes, yes, and all the above.

650
00:45:11,876 --> 00:45:15,956
But frankly speaking, on the ground, we still, we're still not there yet.

651
00:45:16,397 --> 00:45:19,897
Well, the ordinalist problem seems to be solving itself now if you

652
00:45:19,907 --> 00:45:24,974
have a look at the mempool, because like, if I switch to the data, you

653
00:45:24,974 --> 00:45:27,164
know, visualization here on mempool.

654
00:45:27,174 --> 00:45:30,774
space, it's not at all as bad as it was like a month ago.

655
00:45:31,434 --> 00:45:34,294
So there, they might be finally running out of money, this.

656
00:45:34,595 --> 00:45:36,285
That's just for any given block, though.

657
00:45:36,325 --> 00:45:43,681
I mean, like, and I empathize with your point here, Sooly, that like, what

658
00:45:43,681 --> 00:45:47,331
I've seen as being the biggest problem is that it's contributed to create

659
00:45:47,691 --> 00:45:50,308
basically a minimum price right now.

660
00:45:50,508 --> 00:45:53,535
I mean, the ordinals are adding just enough demand that

661
00:45:53,545 --> 00:45:55,385
the mempool isn't clearing.

662
00:45:55,885 --> 00:45:56,635
At, at all.

663
00:45:56,635 --> 00:45:59,485
Like it, like it used to say six months ago or, or a year

664
00:45:59,485 --> 00:46:00,655
ago or something like that.

665
00:46:00,775 --> 00:46:04,285
And, and there can be an argument that maybe that's a good thing, right?

666
00:46:04,285 --> 00:46:09,535
But, uh, the, the, the thing is, uh, the, the combination of that Binance comes in

667
00:46:09,535 --> 00:46:14,088
and does, uh, a batch of consolidation transactions that's going to fill up

668
00:46:14,088 --> 00:46:18,738
20 blocks and then, and then you have these, these spiky fe it still happens.

669
00:46:18,738 --> 00:46:20,148
That, that there's a, a big.

670
00:46:20,383 --> 00:46:25,333
Spike, and it's all from some kind of, uh, inscription mint or something like that.

671
00:46:25,503 --> 00:46:28,503
And so those spike for a while, and so those, those Binance

672
00:46:28,533 --> 00:46:30,493
transactions don't get dealt with.

673
00:46:30,493 --> 00:46:32,053
It takes, it takes longer, right?

674
00:46:32,403 --> 00:46:37,613
And, and I mean, I think the, uh, the thing that, uh, I, I appreciate

675
00:46:37,613 --> 00:46:39,933
you saying is that there is an effect on the ground, right?

676
00:46:40,203 --> 00:46:44,568
The, the problem solving itself, okay, I, I, I can kind of see that to some extent.

677
00:46:44,568 --> 00:46:48,678
It's certainly not as bad as it as it was three months ago, for example,

678
00:46:48,928 --> 00:46:56,258
but higher fees are higher fees, and it prevents users from transacting,

679
00:46:57,498 --> 00:47:03,468
actually transacting money like a monetary transaction at the at the

680
00:47:03,478 --> 00:47:09,928
fee rate that they could if here, I'll, I'll, I'll Um, maybe try to be

681
00:47:09,928 --> 00:47:11,078
a little more succinct about this.

682
00:47:11,598 --> 00:47:14,528
There's no such thing as waiting for a couple of days

683
00:47:14,538 --> 00:47:16,278
for fees to go down anymore.

684
00:47:16,448 --> 00:47:21,508
It's just that fees sort of have this floor, and you put a transaction

685
00:47:21,508 --> 00:47:24,318
in, you have to do it above that floor, or you have no idea.

686
00:47:24,898 --> 00:47:26,908
How long it's going to transact from.

687
00:47:27,298 --> 00:47:30,558
So that floor used to be one sat per vbyte.

688
00:47:30,988 --> 00:47:33,988
Now it's something in the realm of 12.

689
00:47:34,458 --> 00:47:37,508
It was 20, uh, a month ago or something.

690
00:47:37,508 --> 00:47:37,718
Right.

691
00:47:37,718 --> 00:47:39,128
So, so it's just raised the floor.

692
00:47:39,188 --> 00:47:42,168
It's raised the ability for someone to, to transact.

693
00:47:42,178 --> 00:47:42,388
Right.

694
00:47:42,388 --> 00:47:43,148
So yeah.

695
00:47:43,208 --> 00:47:44,278
What, what do you think about that?

696
00:47:44,278 --> 00:47:46,088
Is it that, is that really having an effect?

697
00:47:46,647 --> 00:47:48,507
I mean, three months ago, it was an issue.

698
00:47:48,932 --> 00:47:53,962
And people just like, especially like, you have a lot of crypto bros

699
00:47:53,982 --> 00:48:01,922
trying to enter the market, especially after the finance shake last year.

700
00:48:02,282 --> 00:48:04,062
There's a lot of opportunities in Africa.

701
00:48:04,682 --> 00:48:11,043
And they keep, for me, it's like Bitcoin in a way or marketing

702
00:48:11,043 --> 00:48:13,093
Bitcoin over other shitcoins.

703
00:48:14,133 --> 00:48:18,108
I mean, of course, going through the The basics, uh, but when it comes from

704
00:48:18,108 --> 00:48:20,968
a transaction point of view and the fees point of view, that was an issue.

705
00:48:21,048 --> 00:48:22,208
Now it's no longer the issue.

706
00:48:22,279 --> 00:48:24,039
and education is key.

707
00:48:24,149 --> 00:48:28,629
At the same time, the more you educate the better, um, the more chance you have

708
00:48:28,629 --> 00:48:31,679
to educate, the more time you have to educate depends who you're talking to.

709
00:48:31,999 --> 00:48:35,709
If you're talking to a family office, with a board, you need

710
00:48:35,709 --> 00:48:37,509
to pick the youngest age group.

711
00:48:37,559 --> 00:48:41,199
If you're talking to, um, a um, a barber.

712
00:48:41,369 --> 00:48:45,559
In Africa, uh, who's in his sixties is going to be just tough.

713
00:48:45,689 --> 00:48:48,289
You need to download, download, unfortunately, a lightning wallet

714
00:48:48,319 --> 00:48:51,889
and transact, uh, on, uh, what if Satoshi to convince them

715
00:48:51,899 --> 00:48:53,869
and then orange them this way.

716
00:48:54,059 --> 00:48:55,199
Uh, so things change.

717
00:48:55,229 --> 00:48:59,899
Uh, there isn't, yes, it affected the, the, the education.

718
00:49:00,029 --> 00:49:03,875
Um, just like, you know, when you were orange billing.

719
00:49:04,235 --> 00:49:08,565
For a long time, using the same techniques, you don't have to

720
00:49:08,565 --> 00:49:12,645
worry about the fees, and from one day to another, fees are up.

721
00:49:12,875 --> 00:49:18,115
You need to change the whole, I mean, for me it's a bit, I'm a bit OCD, I'm a

722
00:49:18,175 --> 00:49:22,210
perfectionist in the sense where Yes, of course you can pitch for the lightning.

723
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,620
But lightning has its weaknesses as well.

724
00:49:24,660 --> 00:49:31,770
I don't like to pitch something, um, that I'm not 100 percent sure of.

725
00:49:31,820 --> 00:49:33,530
I'm 100 percent sure of Bitcoin today.

726
00:49:33,570 --> 00:49:37,280
Am I 100 percent sure of lightning in a controlled environment?

727
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:37,950
Yes, I am.

728
00:49:38,550 --> 00:49:43,570
Um, like I know people who and I even encouraged and did some some

729
00:49:43,570 --> 00:49:47,030
presentations where they had different offices across different countries.

730
00:49:47,030 --> 00:49:49,780
They have different nodes and they can transact their own channels,

731
00:49:50,140 --> 00:49:51,850
um, in a self sovereign way.

732
00:49:52,100 --> 00:49:53,480
But this is not your typical.

733
00:49:53,810 --> 00:49:55,170
business owner today.

734
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,260
And if we're going to drive adoption, I think there's a lot of,

735
00:50:00,460 --> 00:50:04,630
I mean, despite the development on L2s and L3s, and it's fantastic.

736
00:50:05,270 --> 00:50:09,560
L1 is still the way to go, in my opinion, for Africa when it

737
00:50:09,580 --> 00:50:12,630
comes to, I'm not talking medium of exchange, just to teach about

738
00:50:13,564 --> 00:50:17,784
A bit, a bit of a historical perspective here, though, from, from, uh, like,

739
00:50:17,844 --> 00:50:23,934
having lived through the segwit, um, the, the fork wars back in 2017.

740
00:50:24,374 --> 00:50:28,614
So there was a period, like, before the fork, but also after, like,

741
00:50:28,624 --> 00:50:33,484
during 2018, where no one thought the mempool would ever clear again.

742
00:50:34,169 --> 00:50:34,789
But it did.

743
00:50:35,029 --> 00:50:38,859
Like, it took months and months, but then it cleared up again.

744
00:50:39,469 --> 00:50:43,989
And, uh, and, uh, same, same thing in, uh, uh, when was that?

745
00:50:44,039 --> 00:50:45,499
Like, 2021?

746
00:50:46,049 --> 00:50:49,819
We had high fees for a while, like, the fir I think this is the, like, the first

747
00:50:50,619 --> 00:50:56,549
Ordinal type, if it's even that, but then it cleared again, and now we're having

748
00:50:56,609 --> 00:51:03,239
this spike, and it's going down again, and we can think that it's never gonna clear

749
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:06,429
again, but we don't really know that.

750
00:51:06,779 --> 00:51:08,409
We'll have to wait and see, I guess.

751
00:51:08,867 --> 00:51:09,767
Bitcoin doesn't care.

752
00:51:11,237 --> 00:51:11,707
We don't.

753
00:51:12,638 --> 00:51:17,688
you don't, the funny part is like, really, this is like the whole, we're

754
00:51:17,708 --> 00:51:23,787
entering the ordinance topic, just like in Africa or the Middle East, it's a, it's

755
00:51:23,787 --> 00:51:28,747
a region that needs really sound money for the characteristics of sound money.

756
00:51:29,532 --> 00:51:35,902
And Ordnance is just another fiat centralized VC way of doing things.

757
00:51:36,202 --> 00:51:41,292
Uh, it would be, yeah, creating hype and demand and adoption and blah, blah,

758
00:51:41,292 --> 00:51:46,012
blah, getting people back or like someone really trying, liking, like the mind

759
00:51:46,012 --> 00:51:50,860
blowing thing is just like today you have NFT artists claiming to be Bitcoin maxis

760
00:51:50,890 --> 00:51:54,070
because they believe in Bitcoin network to be the strongest network on earth.

761
00:51:54,130 --> 00:51:57,115
It's like, What am I doing here?

762
00:51:57,682 --> 00:52:03,342
Yeah, we saw some real Bitcoin art at Bitcoin Atlantis, uh, Fractal Encrypt, uh,

763
00:52:03,382 --> 00:52:07,602
tons of other artists, but Fractal's piece was the centerpiece of this art gallery.

764
00:52:07,862 --> 00:52:11,652
Absolutely mind blowing stuff, just mind blowing, and that's

765
00:52:11,652 --> 00:52:12,872
some real art right there.

766
00:52:13,067 --> 00:52:16,007
And not, not, not clogging the chain at all.

767
00:52:16,147 --> 00:52:20,417
It's like even that Fractal works so hard on his art, so he doesn't

768
00:52:20,417 --> 00:52:23,457
have time to do any on chain transactions, so he's even offloading

769
00:52:25,202 --> 00:52:26,662
I have practiced work at home.

770
00:52:26,812 --> 00:52:27,832
I love his work, man.

771
00:52:27,882 --> 00:52:28,122
Yeah.

772
00:52:28,792 --> 00:52:32,842
Um, uh, I, I wasn't able to make it for Atlantis this year, but

773
00:52:32,842 --> 00:52:35,202
I only saw amazing reviews guys.

774
00:52:35,202 --> 00:52:35,692
Well done.

775
00:52:36,067 --> 00:52:40,977
We had, we had such a wonderful time, and yeah, we're releasing a

776
00:52:40,977 --> 00:52:42,767
lot of episodes from that right now.

777
00:52:42,807 --> 00:52:46,767
This will of course be released after that, so it doesn't matter to this show.

778
00:52:47,597 --> 00:52:53,047
Anyway, Sooly, uh, tell us a bit about your, uh, uh, your current thing,

779
00:52:53,127 --> 00:52:55,127
like, uh, the consulting you do.

780
00:52:55,207 --> 00:53:00,657
Um, you, you consult Bitcoin businesses, you said, and like individuals as well?

781
00:53:01,072 --> 00:53:01,572
Yes.

782
00:53:01,642 --> 00:53:01,962
Correct.

783
00:53:03,117 --> 00:53:10,237
So, uh, what I do from, um, from the Bitcoin space, um, I'm always

784
00:53:10,337 --> 00:53:16,427
on the hunt to try to do my homework to see if there's any opportunity

785
00:53:16,457 --> 00:53:21,978
for a Bitcoin only company, to find opportunities for Bitcoin only companies.

786
00:53:22,108 --> 00:53:24,158
And the market in Africa or the Middle East.

787
00:53:24,538 --> 00:53:28,800
So what I do is like I assess the market, and knock on their doors,

788
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,630
uh, proposing a strategy to work on.

789
00:53:32,081 --> 00:53:35,371
so yeah, I did that with Swan.

790
00:53:35,461 --> 00:53:40,646
Uh, I did that with Jam3, even though Jam3 and, um, Their perspectives

791
00:53:40,646 --> 00:53:43,916
like, okay, but like, you know, for example, Dubai doesn't need Gen 3.

792
00:53:44,286 --> 00:53:46,746
They have enough money for Gen 3, but this is exactly the point.

793
00:53:46,756 --> 00:53:51,726
Like the whole region needs Gen 3 and we will see more of Gen 3,

794
00:53:51,736 --> 00:53:54,186
I'm sure, uh, this year in Africa.

795
00:53:54,647 --> 00:53:57,936
so this is what I do for the Bitcoin companies.

796
00:53:58,247 --> 00:54:03,227
Um, now even like I expanded into, um, like there's a lot of services that

797
00:54:03,237 --> 00:54:06,162
some of the Bitcoin companies, they don't have Pleasants in the Middle East.

798
00:54:06,162 --> 00:54:10,930
I need to, run some, um, uh, some assessments, uh, some vetting

799
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:12,730
for partners, uh, et cetera.

800
00:54:12,770 --> 00:54:13,820
So I did that.

801
00:54:13,820 --> 00:54:19,230
But the core is really onboarding individuals and businesses, um, high

802
00:54:19,230 --> 00:54:23,390
net worth individuals in specific or business owners that are That can be

803
00:54:23,470 --> 00:54:28,950
just a barber or like really nonprofits, Bitcoin organizations like Bitcoin

804
00:54:28,990 --> 00:54:34,520
Dada in Kenya and Ghana, uh, just to see how can Bitcoin help them grow.

805
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:38,730
Because at the end of the day, I strongly believe that, um, like all

806
00:54:38,730 --> 00:54:43,280
of us, like helping each other and helping Bitcoin entities thrive,

807
00:54:43,740 --> 00:54:45,570
we will all benefit from it.

808
00:54:45,670 --> 00:54:50,060
Um, so yeah, what I do is like, it all starts with a, I call it the Nakamoto

809
00:54:50,070 --> 00:54:53,060
approach where it's like, I divided the.

810
00:54:53,608 --> 00:54:59,318
It's just a normal, um, thinking where it's, you do the assessment,

811
00:54:59,318 --> 00:55:03,438
you have your white paper, and after the white paper, you do, basically,

812
00:55:03,458 --> 00:55:06,838
the first step is a discovery call, getting to know the client, etc.

813
00:55:06,868 --> 00:55:11,308
And then we do a preliminary deep dive of like the white, white paper

814
00:55:11,308 --> 00:55:15,988
preparation where we go, um, we do a SWOT analysis of the strategy,

815
00:55:15,988 --> 00:55:18,267
the vision of the person, et cetera.

816
00:55:18,647 --> 00:55:22,997
Um, and then I write like a clear proposal to serve the,

817
00:55:23,027 --> 00:55:25,087
the entity or the organization.

818
00:55:25,347 --> 00:55:30,337
And by the way, I like, it's varies between, uh, all sectors, agriculture,

819
00:55:30,417 --> 00:55:32,137
manufacturing and services.

820
00:55:32,427 --> 00:55:37,537
Um, as well, you have like great, um, business owners who've been building,

821
00:55:37,567 --> 00:55:39,487
uh, or using Bitcoin in different ways.

822
00:55:39,517 --> 00:55:44,322
And for me, orange billing has been so Interesting is in the sense

823
00:55:44,322 --> 00:55:48,162
where not convincing people to buy Bitcoin, just convincing people to,

824
00:55:48,632 --> 00:55:50,912
to really optimize their operations.

825
00:55:51,352 --> 00:55:54,012
Bitcoin brings you marketing today.

826
00:55:54,812 --> 00:55:59,712
Bitcoin brings you a point of sale and less accounting heads in your

827
00:55:59,712 --> 00:56:02,722
accounting department for less reconciliations during the day to do.

828
00:56:03,032 --> 00:56:05,332
There's a lot of things and energy and mining.

829
00:56:05,332 --> 00:56:10,652
So, frankly, Bitcoin is so easy to defend because it's so strong and amazing.

830
00:56:10,682 --> 00:56:12,772
So, um, and then, um.

831
00:56:12,982 --> 00:56:15,972
There's a session called the protocol alignment, where there's

832
00:56:15,972 --> 00:56:20,272
a roadmap of what needs to be done milestones wise based on the business

833
00:56:20,282 --> 00:56:21,882
or the high network individuals.

834
00:56:23,212 --> 00:56:24,632
And then there are checkpoints in between.

835
00:56:24,642 --> 00:56:26,582
And then there's a block confirmation.

836
00:56:26,622 --> 00:56:29,422
I call it in the, in the process, the block confirmation is like

837
00:56:29,422 --> 00:56:32,432
the strategy implementation, and there's a difficulty adjustment.

838
00:56:32,782 --> 00:56:35,402
At the end where there is always a check.

839
00:56:35,402 --> 00:56:38,682
So there's a timeline of a roadmap of different sessions.

840
00:56:38,712 --> 00:56:40,642
I try to, I call it Nakamoto approach.

841
00:56:40,642 --> 00:56:41,412
It's very transparent.

842
00:56:41,412 --> 00:56:44,432
This way it made me consistent with all the clients and to make

843
00:56:44,432 --> 00:56:45,802
sure that everything goes well.

844
00:56:45,802 --> 00:56:49,282
And it's very transparent, very methodical and it works.

845
00:56:49,702 --> 00:56:50,922
So yeah, this is what I do.

846
00:56:50,922 --> 00:56:55,382
And, um, Unfortunately, I haven't finalized the website

847
00:56:55,382 --> 00:56:58,972
yet because sometimes I have a too low time of a preference.

848
00:56:59,842 --> 00:57:01,592
My time preference is too low sometimes.

849
00:57:02,042 --> 00:57:06,202
Um, but yeah, um, I'll be launching this website very soon.

850
00:57:06,242 --> 00:57:09,932
And just because I need, didn't need the website before, but now that with

851
00:57:09,942 --> 00:57:13,362
all the hype and everyone wants more Bitcoin, it just makes more sense.

852
00:57:13,824 --> 00:57:17,464
So, so where can people find you online if they can't find you on the website?

853
00:57:17,709 --> 00:57:20,329
Uh, Sooly Kobayashi on Twitter, on LinkedIn.

854
00:57:21,219 --> 00:57:23,489
And yeah, that's me on all platforms.

855
00:57:23,609 --> 00:57:24,509
Sooly Kobayashi.

856
00:57:24,944 --> 00:57:27,914
And if they want your services, they can shoot you a DM, I guess.

857
00:57:28,171 --> 00:57:28,891
Always open.

858
00:57:29,071 --> 00:57:29,511
Thank you.

859
00:57:29,763 --> 00:57:31,223
Sooly, this has been fantastic.

860
00:57:31,223 --> 00:57:32,533
Thank you so much for joining us.

861
00:57:33,028 --> 00:57:33,518
Likewise.

862
00:57:33,558 --> 00:57:34,178
Thanks, guys.

863
00:57:35,073 --> 00:57:35,543
Yeah.

864
00:57:35,893 --> 00:57:36,333
Take care.

865
00:57:36,433 --> 00:57:37,503
Good luck with everything.

866
00:57:37,751 --> 00:57:39,321
This has been the Freedom Footprint show.

867
00:57:39,321 --> 00:57:40,981
Like, subscribe and brush your teeth.

868
00:57:41,021 --> 00:57:41,891
Thanks for listening.