Bitcoin Corporate Treasuries with Pierre Rochard | Bitcoin Infinity Show #181

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Pierre, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Nice to have you here.

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Hey, thanks for having me on.

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This is actually quite the moment for me because yours was the first pod I was ever on.

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Back when you had the Noded podcast, I looked it up. It was episode 63, I think, of the Noded podcast.

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I had just released Sovereignty Through Mathematics, and we had, I believe, met in Riga, maybe, or maybe it was before Riga.

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I remember, I remember it because I missed it.

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I missed the date because I was at an amusement park with my kids and I totally fucked up.

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And I thought I had made the biggest blunder of my life, but it turned out pretty well.

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Now, even though I missed the park.

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You can never go wrong going to the amusement park with your kids.

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I think that's the right move.

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Yeah.

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Except in Sweden, because it's shit cold at the amusement parks.

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But anyway, that was, that was a good time.

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Yeah.

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And a lot has happened since.

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What, first of all, what, what, maybe we should start with giving our listeners a TLDR

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on Piero card, since you haven't been on my show before.

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So, so just give them the, the short one.

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Yeah, sure.

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So, you know, before Bitcoin existed, I got interested in monetary economics.

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I was kind of a sound money, gold and silver student of the Austrian school.

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And I also got interested in open source software.

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So I was listening to Richard Stallman, and I never thought those two things would cross.

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But fast forward to the end of 2012, and I really took a deep dive into Bitcoin at the behest of my friends, Michael Goldstein and Daniel Krewis, who would later go on to develop some of these thoughts at the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute.

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And Michael Goldstein continues to maintain the Nakamoto Institute.

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He's the president there.

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So for people who really want to go deep on coin philosophy and history and kind of cypherpunk and all of the literature around that, I highly recommend it.

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And to donate and support it so that it continues to grow in its content.

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So fast forward to, you know, kind of, I took a career in accounting.

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I got my bachelor and master in accounting at UT Austin.

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Started kind of a normal TradFi accounting role.

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but really wanted to work in the Bitcoin industry.

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So I took a role at BitPay

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in their accounting department in Atlanta.

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That was a Bitcoin payment processor.

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They still exist actually,

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but I feel like they're maybe less prominent

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than they were at the time.

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And worked in TradFi as well,

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later at Hudson River Trading,

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which is a high-frequency trading shop there.

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I was doing accounting, nothing to do with Bitcoin,

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but definitely, you know, fiat mining, right?

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and also learning a lot about how the financial system and capital markets work.

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So when I really wanted to focus on open source full-time, I was really interested in the Lightning

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network. I'd started seeing videos of Jack Mahler's working on his Lightning software,

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and I thought it was really cool. And I was a Python guy. He was more of a, I think, you know,

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JavaScript guy. And I like JavaScript, but I felt more comfortable with Python. So

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I started working on some different lightning related projects. I did what they call a residency

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at ChainCode Labs back then. And you do a project as part of that. And so my project was

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actually an Excel plugin that allowed you to send lightning payments from within Microsoft Excel.

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So I had a lot of fun doing that. And then that led me to the node launcher because the hardest

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part of that on Windows was actually running a Bitcoin and lightning node side by side and

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having them communicate with each other. And that led me to Kraken because Kraken was really

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interested in integrating with the Lightning Network. And it took a little while, but we

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eventually got that done. And then Elizabeth Warren started attacking Bitcoin miners. And so

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I joined Riot Platforms as their VP of research to provide the intellectual arguments for why she's

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wrong and pushed back on this by hiring lobbyists, hiring public policy experts to go and make sure

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that the regulatory risk around Bitcoin mining in the US was minimized. That was successful beyond

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anyone's imagination that we completely won that battle. Nobody cares anymore about Bitcoin mining

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from a political perspective and that decided to go out and focus on other things, namely

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the financialization of Bitcoin.

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I think that's probably the biggest topic for the next few decades.

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You know, payments will continue to be important, obviously, and mining will continue to be

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important.

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But what I'm really excited about is taking over the financial system.

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Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there and a lot like we've had parallel careers in this.

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like but in completely different directions it's kind of kind of fun to to pinpoint that the timeline

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and what happens when and yeah i like to do this with a lot of bitcoiners like uh first of all like

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i remember using lightning back the first time we met was baltic honey badger 2019 this is the second

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year they do the conference i believe and i remember using lightning then and custodial

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lightning of course like i i could accept custodial lightning payments for my book i don't have

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anything against custodial lightning in fact you know that's what we need to crack and uh and it

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worked really well but i i don't have you know it's like because if you already have an account

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open at the exchange it's just so convenient yeah and i mean i view it as a superior form of a bank

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account because like sure you can do fractional reserve on on custodial lightning theoretically

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you could absolutely do that.

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Cracken did proof of reserves, right?

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So it was, but yeah, I agree that it's a risk, right?

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That that would happen.

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I mean, it's safer than a regular bank

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because if there was a bank run on a custodial Lightning wallet,

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then there is no central bank to bail the Lightning provider out.

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Yeah.

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So that's actually a good thing then.

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So, yeah.

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And, you know, it's funny because people say,

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oh, what happens if Bitcoin becomes fractional reserve?

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It's like, well, what happened to FTX?

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What happened to MacGuy's?

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The people there get wiped out,

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and then everybody else in the Bitcoin economy is like,

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hey, you shouldn't have done that.

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No, it's as it should be.

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It's what banking used to be before the central banks.

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If you weren't doing your due diligence

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to check if the bank was legit or not as the customer,

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you got wrecked.

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Yeah.

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And no one else got wrecked.

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The taxpayer didn't get wrecked.

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So that's the difference.

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People still get wrecked.

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It's just that it's obscured.

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And then, you know, to take it even further, like Sam Beckman-Fraid, he's in prison today.

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I don't think anybody who was responsible for the 2008 financial crisis is in prison today.

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No.

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No.

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There was one guy who committed suicide.

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Slightly shortly after.

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But other than that, I've heard of no, if you can call that a repercussion, maybe it shouldn't, because who knows whatever made him make that horrible decision.

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But I mean, they haven't been held accountable, that's for sure.

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And the scariest part about that, and I remember even back then reflecting on this, even though it was happening on the other side of the globe, like the Democrats and the Republicans just colluding and saying that this was the best way forward to just bail out the bad guys.

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And I never understood it.

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I think that to not do it would have required admitting, like, because they actually didn't do anything illegal.

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That's why they didn't go to jail.

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because all of this nonsense is legal.

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And it's legal by exception.

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It says that nobody can do this except this oligopoly,

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this cartel that can create money out of thin air

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and everybody else, it's counterfeiting.

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Yeah, I mean, this is where the distinction

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between legal and lawful from a libertarian perspective comes in.

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It may be legal, but it sure as hell ain't lawful.

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No, not at all.

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Because it's breaking natural law.

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So, yeah, back when I did the pod with you, that was episode 63 of Noded, which you did with Bitstein or Michael Goldstein.

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So when did that whole thing start?

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When did you start doing that pod and why?

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Like what was the origin story there?

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The origin story was that there was an altcoin podcast that was becoming popular.

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And I thought, well, there should be a Bitcoin podcast as well.

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it might not become popular, but there should be one. And I enjoyed being a guest on other people's

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podcasts at that point. And so I was like, well, I could start my own. And with Michael Bilstein as

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well, because we have good chemistry together in having some sense of humor about this stuff.

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And the title came from a famous Barry Silberg tweet responding to what we would call it today,

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a Bitcoin pleb. And he said that the pleb, I forget his name now, but he said something

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along the lines of like that he thinks Barry Silbert's a scammer or something, right?

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And Barry Silbert replied, noted, N-O-T-E-D, you know, period of like somehow, you know,

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Barry Silbert's writing this guy's name down and, you know, their enemies text.

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I thought it was a lot of people on Twitter thought it was a funny, you know,

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weird, egotistical thing to write.

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And so it kind of took off as a meme.

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And then I thought, well, how about noted?

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I know D-E-D.

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It's a playoff of the peer-to-peer network.

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And how many episodes did you record in total?

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Like for how long did that, is it a latent project, by the way?

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Is there a chance you'll revive it?

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We try to get an episode out once a year now.

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So it's still going.

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You know, both Michael and I, we've got kids.

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It's hard to find both time that synchronizes with each other and with a guest.

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It's a little bit too much overhead.

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So we did do just Michael and I podcast episodes for the Nakamoto Institute.

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It's called The Reorg.

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And we went back and we looked at past writings on the Nakamoto Institute website

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and kind of have they withstood the test of time, you know, 10 years later.

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So how early was noted, like in comparison to, you know, what Bitcoin did or Tales from the Crypt?

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Well, that's a good question.

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I'd have to go look because I was the first interview guest on Tales from the Crypt.

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I had met Marty Bett in New York.

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We were both living there and we had bone broths together while walking the streets of New York, I remember.

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And yeah, we recorded the, I think it was a two or three hour rip that we had as the first episode.

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So I definitely recommend people go back and listen to that.

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I think I want to say that was 2019.

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So after we started Noted.

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And then what Bitcoin did, I remember I was a guest on pretty early.

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I'd have to go look.

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but Pierre McCormick was asking about like what why are you a bitcoin maximalist was kind of the

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gist of the podcast and I still think it's one of the most important questions in you know in the

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world but yeah I'd also recommend people go go listen to that one it was a while back he had just

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gotten himself into trouble for for saying something anti-maximalist but he does that right

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he gets himself in trouble, then talks about it for a little while.

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And I think it's an interesting way to go.

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Maybe there's a tactic there.

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I will not comment any further on that, but it's this trying to become a big

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podcaster is a different game than trying to become a respected maxi for sure.

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Anyway, anyway, let's not, let's not talk about that.

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Uh, I have him down as a respected maxi for the record.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I do too.

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Like the, the way I judge people is usually like, is their net contribution

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positive or negative?

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And like, I, I judged them on that.

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So you can have, I mean, it's not a, it's not a purity test in that sense, but like

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people do do things that sometimes farnish their reputation, but then they redeem

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themselves by, by just putting on good content.

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like, and a lot of it.

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So on the whole, are they a net benefit or a net detriment?

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That's, that's how I try to like judge people.

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I don't know.

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Do you have a method for that?

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I try not to judge people.

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You know, I, I feel like who am I to judge, but also when I think about

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Bitcoin adoption, I, yeah, I, I don't know where some of these things net out.

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Right.

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Where I don really know So you know for example like let say Mt Gox like you could say well obviously a net negative right But it got a lot of people on self custody

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And so how do you balance the positive things that came out of something

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negative with, you know, the means don't justify the ends?

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Yeah.

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I didn't necessarily mean judge meant judging people, but judging people's

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actions is a better term, I guess, because like, and how do you balance like, uh, if

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because you, you, you can't escape, you, you do value a person's opinion according to how much

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you trust them sort of like, you have to base it on some something.

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I just find it hard sometimes to disentangle whether their actions were motivated by, like,

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I feel like that, that matters is, was it motivated or was it out of ignorance?

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And sometimes it's kind of in a gray area.

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Yeah.

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I don't have all the information.

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No, there's a saying nowadays that you either die a big coiner or you live long enough to see yourself become the suit coiner.

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You know, I love the term suit coiner.

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I would definitely put myself in the camp.

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I was a suit coiner, you know, in high school, I was on the debate team.

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And so I got to wear a suit all the time.

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And, you know, I was into silver coins.

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So I was Citcoining, you know, quite early in my life.

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And I think that one of the challenges for Bitcoiners is, well, and I think it's true

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historically, right?

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So if you look at any kind of what we could call a revolutionary movement, if they are

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successful, then there's a point where they have to change gears into governing because

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they've won.

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And I think that that makes Bitcoiners intrinsically uncomfortable.

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role and we want to continue the revolution right it's like oh no we're not done yet we can't be

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satisfied here and i think that you know that for example like luke is like if if if not everyone is

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running a node and using a node then bitcoin has failed that's that's one of his axiomatic beliefs

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is that bitcoin has failed if if grandma is not running her node and i think i think the the the

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actual quote is like, if not at least 85% of the network of the coins are run by people who run

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or are owned by people who run nodes or something like that. I think it's slightly, it's not everyone,

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but like the majority needs to run nodes. Which I mean, the obvious problem is how would you know

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where you are on that spectrum? It's impossible, right? Yeah, it's impossible. But I also think

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that what really matters is the option value, the ability to run a node, the freedom to run a node,

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if you want to, is really why Bitcoin is decentralized. It's the cost of entry, basically.

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And so to me, the biggest question is, what's the cost of running a node and what percentage of the

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world's population could afford to pay that cost if they were motivated to do so. And I think that

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if it's framed that way, then we don't have to continue the revolution until 85% of the coins,

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you know, we verify are being, you know, self-custody by people running their own nodes.

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And so I think that, yeah, that's where my headspace is at on the suit coining versus the bitcoining.

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All right. Yeah, there's a lot to dive into there.

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Because, yeah, a lot of moral questions about how to rationalize for yourself, like merging the Bitcoin world with the legacy world.

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Isn't that like what we're trying to get away from?

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And aren't we sort of giving in if we're on a dollar standard in legal terms?

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So I guess the deeper question is, if a politician gets to dictate what a node is or isn't,

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haven't we already lost the game?

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Or at least on a very slippery slope to do so?

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Yeah, I don't know that a politician has that power to decide what is a Bitcoin node or not.

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I don't know how they would be able to coordinate that. Maybe the closest thing we have to that is

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Luke and the core developers. Maybe they're the politicians who decide what a Bitcoin net is.

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Trump isn't really in a position to do that. Also, if you look at, for example, BlackRock,

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right they've got this giant ibit etf they're charging fees on it and the c's are so substantial

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in the aggregate that it's actually now a material percentage of their revenue for blackrock the

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world's biggest asset manager and if you go look at and so to me like larry fink is the epitome of

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the suit coiner right like he is the the king of suits maybe not the coiner but the suit well he

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was on national television saying that Bitcoin is above governments. And so I think that raises

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a really serious philosophical question of whose side is he on, right? And then if you look at their

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marketing materials for iBit, you know, the central question they're trying to answer is why does

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Bitcoin have value, right? Because they're selling a Bitcoin ETF, right? They're not selling an ETF,

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ETF, they're selling a Bitcoin ETF. They sell lots of other ETFs. And if they wanted to,

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you know, warn people against that, they could take the Vanguard approach and warn people against

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it. So what does the marketing material say on their prospectus on kind of what they're trying

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to sell to investors? Bitcoin is decentralized. It's scarce. It's permissionless. And you can,

264
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you know, use it 24-7 globally. And that's why it's increasing in market share. You can self-custody

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it. So it's quite the paradox that they're advertising the centralized product using the

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properties of the underlying. And obviously, people are very interested in an ETF because

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it's convenient. They don't have to think about keys. They don't have to think about all the

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tech aspect of it. They can use it for options trading. They can borrow against it at much

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better terms than other options out there. And so would Larry Fink want to take over Bitcoin

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and co-opt it and centralize it and run all the nodes or decide what a node is?

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I actually don't think so. I think that would be against his rational profit maximizing commercial

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interests. I think that he would be killing the goose that's laying the golden egg right now for

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and that if anything, what I see them actually doing is going in the opposite direction.

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For example, they are pushing to be able to create redeem in kind, meaning that you'd

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be able to convert from physical, you know, real UTXOs into IBIT and back in as frictionless

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of a manner as possible.

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And the reason why they want to do that is because that's ultimately how they get paid

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the most fees, right?

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is to have the most users, have the best product.

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And they know that people can opt out very easily, right?

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If IBIT is annoying and inconvenient,

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people just go use real UTXOs.

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And so I think that the option value of self-sovereignty

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ultimately puts massive competitive pressure

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on anybody trying to build long-term profitable products

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around Bitcoin.

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The other part of it, when we look at, you know,

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So the state, like here in Texas, I had the joy of testifying for a strategic Bitcoin reserve for the state of Texas.

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And I couldn't believe it.

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The state senator, who is the chair of the Business and Commerce Committee, very serious guy.

291
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He opened up the reasoning why we need to have a strategic Bitcoin reserve is because the U.S. dollar is going to collapse.

292
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and so the state needs to have you know an insurance policy against that and that's where

293
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i think that kind of on one hand okay we don't want to empower the state by having its own you

294
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know having more bitcoin right and more resources on the other hand we do want to disempower the

295
00:22:35,426 --> 00:22:40,526
state by removing its monopoly on the issuance of currency right on the senior edge and that

296
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it's not going to happen overnight. But I think that if we don't build bridges between the fiat

297
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world and the Bitcoin world, because we hate fiat, the outcome is extremely immoral. Because

298
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the outcome is that you have a handful of people who, one, are young and risk-seeking enough to

299
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hold Bitcoin because it's so volatile, and two, tech-savvy enough to run their own node,

300
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hold their own keys. Everybody else in society would have to essentially experience the collapse

301
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of fiat, which might take centuries. Let's be realistic because Soviet Union took decades to

302
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collapse. Fiat could last another century. There's no question about it. I think that that would be

303
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the worst outcome. The best outcome would be that we find ways to help everybody upgrade to Bitcoin

304
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and meet them where they're at. If they think Bitcoin is too volatile, then they can go invest

305
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in securities offered by strategy, like the perpetual preferreds that are powered by Bitcoin,

306
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but are not volatile. And so all of these critiques of Bitcoin ultimately are just

307
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an opportunity for businesses to build products that address those problems by taking advantage

308
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of Bitcoin's properties. Okay, I'm trying to come up with a good devil's advocate angle here,

309
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because it's usually the best for getting the conversation going. If we go back to the core

310
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versus not debate, if there's one thing I think people should be happy about, it would be the fact

311
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that this thing is happening at all because it is making people run nodes to like a lot of people

312
00:24:37,046 --> 00:24:41,526
are now running nodes because this debate is happening and they are doing their homework

313
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sure they might be making the wrong decisions regardless of what side of the debate you're on

314
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you will probably think that they're making the wrong decisions if they're on the other side of

315
00:24:52,426 --> 00:24:57,766
the debate or what but they are running nodes and they are actively participating in the network

316
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and that's a good thing so so like and this is something you cannot say about

317
00:25:03,106 --> 00:25:10,346
the strategic reserve companies like they are not actively they all have their coins with

318
00:25:10,346 --> 00:25:16,086
custodians right and if there's one phrase i miss from mishearing at these conferences it's

319
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not your keys not your coins you never hear that anymore because it's all about these paper bitcoins

320
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And we went sort of from being very, very adamant about the crucial importance of not your keys, not your coins, because it's a whole new form of ownership in a way.

321
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Abstract thinking that other people don't have the secret you do, kind of not really owning anything at all, but just keeping a secret.

322
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And we've gone from that to this all of a sudden thinking that paper bitcoins is okay.

323
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And it's the same thing with mining.

324
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If now mining is centralized, which some people raise alarm bells about mining being centralized

325
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and really owned by the same entity.

326
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And if that is true, then Bitcoin still has some type of resilient architecture because

327
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no miner wants to destroy Bitcoin.

328
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They don't have an incentive to actively destroy Bitcoin, but it's not at all as robust as

329
00:26:14,626 --> 00:26:18,826
it would have been if the node runners were actually in charge of what was going on.

330
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So like, what do you, what do you view as the biggest attack vector here?

331
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And is there, is there an attack vector baked into all this to the suit coining,

332
00:26:29,266 --> 00:26:31,306
let's say, or to the paper bitcoins?

333
00:26:32,106 --> 00:26:32,406
Yeah.

334
00:26:32,406 --> 00:26:38,706
I mean, I think that it's, I think the challenge is that the economic equilibrium

335
00:26:38,766 --> 00:26:42,506
outcome is different than our ideological preferences.

336
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And so if we look at, for example, not your keys, not your Bitcoin, that

337
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I think addresses two risks. One is the risk by the custodian of stealing the Bitcoin,

338
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right? Or getting hacked. And if you look at the history of exchanges, there's plenty of examples

339
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to point to, right? But there's also plenty of counter examples to point to. So, you know,

340
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Coinbase, Kraken, BitGo, they've not gotten their private keys compromised.

341
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there have been lots of accounts compromised at these exchanges so I still think that

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self-custody is actually better in that regard that you know I worked at Kraken like I heard

343
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these stories all the time of somebody getting their account drained because their credentials

344
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got you know compromised but that's not materially different than somebody inputting their seed phrase

345
00:27:40,646 --> 00:27:51,992
on an online service and getting swept right Which also happens right But I think that the equilibrium of well actually a lot of these custodians

346
00:27:51,992 --> 00:27:55,391
have done a semi-decent job of, you know,

347
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not stealing people's Bitcoin

348
00:27:57,351 --> 00:27:58,812
or losing people's Bitcoin.

349
00:27:59,351 --> 00:28:01,731
If Coinbase got hacked tomorrow, right,

350
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and the private keys got compromised,

351
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I think that we would see hardware wallet sales take off

352
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and that then there would be kind of a renewal of the ethos

353
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but it's kind of hard to say that oh i hope coinbase gets hacked so that we see more not

354
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your keys not your bitcoin because lots of innocent people would be harmed right so i feel like that's

355
00:28:27,312 --> 00:28:35,552
not not not not necessarily like a good idea to advocate for and then on the 6102 attack side

356
00:28:35,552 --> 00:28:47,512
I think that this one is much more serious in the sense that governments are going to be facing financial difficulties and they're going to be incentivized to seize Bitcoin.

357
00:28:47,512 --> 00:28:52,711
we just saw the u.s government seize i think it was a hundred thousand bitcoin

358
00:28:52,711 --> 00:29:01,992
from this pig butchering scam in asia where these people were you know i think it was chinese men

359
00:29:01,992 --> 00:29:08,471
who were being seduced by foreign women and then they were sending bitcoin or something like that

360
00:29:08,471 --> 00:29:15,032
i'm still asking chat gpt to figure it out for me and somehow the u.s got their hands on the

361
00:29:15,032 --> 00:29:19,691
Bitcoin. So I was like, how did the U.S. seize the Bitcoin on something that seems like it was

362
00:29:19,691 --> 00:29:26,411
not happening in the U.S., right? And so the question is, will the U.S. seize IBIT? And

363
00:29:26,411 --> 00:29:35,451
it could. I think that what we'll start seeing is institutions using multi-sig in multiple

364
00:29:35,451 --> 00:29:42,671
jurisdictions. So if you have a three or five multi-sig and you set it up in areas that have

365
00:29:42,671 --> 00:29:47,711
better asset protection, right? So you put a key in Hong Kong, you put one in London,

366
00:29:47,711 --> 00:29:57,012
you put one in Zurich, and then one in the US, and then one in St. Kitts or Bermuda or something,

367
00:29:57,512 --> 00:30:02,351
where now in order to seize the Bitcoin, the US government would have to jump through a lot more

368
00:30:02,351 --> 00:30:08,691
hoops. And so I think that, or even more practically speaking, civil litigation, right?

369
00:30:08,691 --> 00:30:13,471
What happens if somebody sues BlackRock and, you know, tries to take the Bitcoin or something

370
00:30:13,471 --> 00:30:14,072
like that?

371
00:30:14,572 --> 00:30:23,512
So I think that just reputationally, that's a different situation than we were in five,

372
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10 years ago.

373
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And we could argue against it until our faces are blue and wish, you know, people would

374
00:30:29,691 --> 00:30:31,871
take Not Your Keys, Not Your Bitcoin more seriously.

375
00:30:32,351 --> 00:30:38,451
But ultimately, I think that that responsibility is on the people who are offering those services,

376
00:30:38,451 --> 00:30:44,752
right if if you're like if we look at the landscape of self-custody there's plenty of

377
00:30:44,752 --> 00:30:50,671
services that are open source and free and people can go use those and it's pretty frictionless i'd

378
00:30:50,671 --> 00:30:57,111
point to like sparrow as as an example of something that's really easy to set up multi-sig on and i've

379
00:30:57,111 --> 00:31:03,471
helped other people set them set themselves up on that and i don't really see what the practical

380
00:31:03,471 --> 00:31:13,451
problem is where like why is it that more people are not doing that right and i i think it's just

381
00:31:13,451 --> 00:31:17,871
because they don't have the motivation to do it and then it's like how do you create that motivation

382
00:31:17,871 --> 00:31:26,371
okay let me offer an explanation yeah i i think entities like coinbase and kraken have our forces

383
00:31:26,371 --> 00:31:31,072
in the opposite direction because of course they want people to custody their bitcoin with them

384
00:31:31,072 --> 00:31:38,131
and yeah you rightfully say that they've been good at not losing people's bitcoin

385
00:31:38,131 --> 00:31:45,272
but a lot of that has to do with them making enough money to not lose people's bitcoin because

386
00:31:45,272 --> 00:31:50,931
because they've been scamming people with all this fucking shit coins and and like marketing

387
00:31:50,931 --> 00:31:59,431
shit coins as as legitimate as bitcoin like and uh i mean uh uh what's his name the bog the

388
00:31:59,431 --> 00:32:00,371
the Coinbase guy.

389
00:32:00,671 --> 00:32:01,471
Brian Armstrong, yeah.

390
00:32:02,352 --> 00:32:03,451
Yeah, Brian Armstrong.

391
00:32:04,092 --> 00:32:06,832
He never says the word Bitcoin.

392
00:32:06,971 --> 00:32:08,252
It's always Bitcoin and crypto.

393
00:32:08,532 --> 00:32:13,191
And it's like he can't say anything but crypto

394
00:32:13,191 --> 00:32:17,832
because he needs to keep this fooling people over and over again

395
00:32:17,832 --> 00:32:20,252
to be able to store people's Bitcoin.

396
00:32:20,252 --> 00:32:22,852
So he's not fucking over Bitcoiners, sure,

397
00:32:23,211 --> 00:32:26,772
but he's fucking over other people by legitimizing these other things.

398
00:32:26,772 --> 00:32:29,951
And so don't you see a problem with that?

399
00:32:30,072 --> 00:32:31,451
Is that morally okay?

400
00:32:31,631 --> 00:32:33,292
Or like, what's your view?

401
00:32:34,012 --> 00:32:37,951
Well, I mean, I think that it's putting it.

402
00:32:38,312 --> 00:32:41,292
Look, I think that morally it's not okay.

403
00:32:41,471 --> 00:32:42,951
I like services like River.

404
00:32:43,391 --> 00:32:46,971
I recommend people use river.com over Coinbase.

405
00:32:47,211 --> 00:32:53,252
From a market perspective, it seems like a losing battle for them, right?

406
00:32:53,252 --> 00:32:57,611
If you look at Bitcoin dominance, it's actually pretty healthy.

407
00:32:58,032 --> 00:33:00,292
The S coins keep getting wrecked.

408
00:33:00,951 --> 00:33:07,252
And, you know, even like the Ethereum ETFs have been a lot less successful than the Bitcoin ETFs.

409
00:33:08,272 --> 00:33:19,411
So, you know, even like on the treasury company side, I think that the altcoin treasury companies are going to underperform the Bitcoin treasury companies.

410
00:33:19,411 --> 00:33:27,731
and you know it's like i i've met you know over the past decade plenty of altcoiners

411
00:33:27,731 --> 00:33:32,532
some of them are just trying to make more bitcoin and so that i feel like that's kind of dishonest

412
00:33:32,532 --> 00:33:37,431
right i think it's more honest to say like oh i actually believe this has utility and like

413
00:33:37,431 --> 00:33:44,731
i'm accumulating ethereum so that i can spend gas on my future stablecoin payments that would be the

414
00:33:44,731 --> 00:33:53,092
honest but utterly ridiculous position to have. Usually, they're just trying to flip and get more

415
00:33:53,092 --> 00:34:00,072
Bitcoin at the end of the day. So I think that ultimately, the market-driven process is twofold.

416
00:34:00,431 --> 00:34:07,272
One is just the fundamentals of Bitcoin just has more reliable software parameters than any other

417
00:34:07,272 --> 00:34:14,572
network. But two is economic on the liquidity. So Bitcoin has liquidity network effects that

418
00:34:14,572 --> 00:34:22,311
are self-reinforcing and ultimately will make it such that these altcoins, despite Kraken and

419
00:34:22,311 --> 00:34:29,811
Coinbase screwing over their customers, will not really take market share from Bitcoin.

420
00:34:31,092 --> 00:34:39,072
But isn't the strategic reserve companies, Bitcoin on the balance sheet companies,

421
00:34:39,072 --> 00:34:44,771
isn't that this cycle shit just this cycle shit coins then because a lot a lot of them are going

422
00:34:44,771 --> 00:34:50,731
to rug people right like it's uh there's a lot of added third-party risk third-party risk upon

423
00:34:50,731 --> 00:34:56,892
third-party risk since it's held by a custodian and then you buy the stock of the company that

424
00:34:56,892 --> 00:35:03,352
is keeping its coins with it's double right so so do you view them as as that i'm i know you're

425
00:35:03,352 --> 00:35:08,912
involved with some of them so so obviously you don't view the ones you're involved with as that

426
00:35:08,912 --> 00:35:11,231
But I see a big risk there.

427
00:35:11,311 --> 00:35:11,651
Do you?

428
00:35:12,552 --> 00:35:13,492
So I don't.

429
00:35:13,572 --> 00:35:14,931
I think it's a huge opportunity.

430
00:35:15,211 --> 00:35:19,311
And so one is on, are these, this cycles S coins?

431
00:35:19,992 --> 00:35:26,771
And what I look for is like, what is the valuation model for the asset?

432
00:35:27,251 --> 00:35:34,092
So when I look at a SHIB or Dogecoin or, you know, all these other altcoins,

433
00:35:34,092 --> 00:35:45,392
I know this is anti-Austrian, but just the terminology, intrinsic value, fundamental value.

434
00:35:45,992 --> 00:35:51,211
My subjective valuation of them would be the more Austrian way to put it.

435
00:35:51,771 --> 00:35:57,352
When I do my subjective valuation of Dogecoin, the value I come to is zero.

436
00:35:58,372 --> 00:36:03,052
Zero BTC is what one Dogecoin is worth from my perspective.

437
00:36:03,052 --> 00:36:15,311
When I look at the value of a Bitcoin treasury company, I first start with how many Bitcoin per share do they have, right, as kind of the first fundamental.

438
00:36:16,231 --> 00:36:20,231
Then secondly, kind of what's the trajectory for that?

439
00:36:20,372 --> 00:36:23,012
Is that going to increase or decrease?

440
00:36:23,872 --> 00:36:32,651
And then what risk probability do I assign to having to rely on third parties, right?

441
00:36:32,651 --> 00:36:39,012
And basically, in order for a Bitcoin treasury company to be interesting from a valuation

442
00:36:39,012 --> 00:36:45,451
perspective, my subjective valuation of it has to be less than the market price.

443
00:36:46,271 --> 00:36:52,331
So if the market price is greater than my valuation of it, then that overvaluation

444
00:36:52,331 --> 00:36:59,131
is the S-coin component of it, where I just think that it's overvalued relative to its

445
00:36:59,131 --> 00:36:59,512
fundamentals.

446
00:36:59,512 --> 00:37:10,231
But it could also, there could be times where sentiment is bad and people's expectations, I believe, are incorrect subjectively.

447
00:37:10,751 --> 00:37:15,612
And that coin treasury company is undervalued relative to my subjective valuation of it.

448
00:37:16,191 --> 00:37:27,151
And so whether at any particular point in time the company is overvalued or undervalued in its stock price, I think that that's open to debate.

449
00:37:27,151 --> 00:37:33,112
what I don't think is open to debate is to say, oh, the fundamental value of these companies is zero.

450
00:37:34,191 --> 00:37:42,432
That's just saying my subjective risk assessment, I multiply the probability of the Bitcoin

451
00:37:42,432 --> 00:37:48,751
disappearing by 100%. And so there I would say, well, you're mispricing the risk.

452
00:37:49,352 --> 00:37:54,471
And that really, but that's subjective, right? So you can disagree with me and that's what makes a

453
00:37:54,471 --> 00:38:05,012
market yeah but if if you extrapolate uh into into infinity so so like if if you think of this at

454
00:38:05,012 --> 00:38:12,831
from the longest time on the longest time frame you can then they do go to zero because either

455
00:38:12,831 --> 00:38:19,631
bitcoin outperforms them in case it was better to hold bitcoin than to hold these paper bitcoins

456
00:38:19,631 --> 00:38:21,651
with added counterparty risk,

457
00:38:22,032 --> 00:38:23,651
or Bitcoin goes to zero

458
00:38:23,651 --> 00:38:25,072
and then they also go to zero

459
00:38:25,072 --> 00:38:27,852
because then they have no underlying asset.

460
00:38:28,512 --> 00:38:31,852
So what time frame are we talking about here?

461
00:38:32,072 --> 00:38:35,032
Or do we have to re-evaluate these things

462
00:38:35,032 --> 00:38:37,352
every year or every month or every week

463
00:38:37,352 --> 00:38:38,811
or every decade?

464
00:38:39,331 --> 00:38:41,572
What's your time frame when you talk about these things?

465
00:38:42,352 --> 00:38:45,751
Yeah, you have to re-evaluate them on a daily basis.

466
00:38:46,032 --> 00:38:47,711
I think that's really the strongest argument

467
00:38:47,711 --> 00:38:49,271
against Bitcoin treasury companies.

468
00:38:49,631 --> 00:38:56,052
is that the active management of the asset, you have to keep your eyes on it if you actually want

469
00:38:56,052 --> 00:39:04,412
to understand when to sell the stock or buy the stock. And I think that most Bitcoiners are not

470
00:39:04,412 --> 00:39:11,771
interested in investing in equities. They want to save money. They want to hold stats in cold

471
00:39:11,771 --> 00:39:17,711
storage and hold Bitcoin. And so that's why I think that Bitcoin treasury companies are not

472
00:39:17,711 --> 00:39:25,512
particularly interesting to most Bitcoiners. It's kind of a niche interest of you have to be

473
00:39:25,512 --> 00:39:31,131
interested in capital markets. You also have to believe that the US rule of law and property

474
00:39:31,131 --> 00:39:37,112
rights are going to hold together well enough that this isn't going to be an issue going forward.

475
00:39:38,072 --> 00:39:44,552
And yeah, so I definitely don't think that it's for most people something that they can wrap

476
00:39:44,552 --> 00:39:50,231
their heads around and keep tabs on. Even within the Bitcoin treasury industry, sometimes I'll hear

477
00:39:50,231 --> 00:39:55,612
people say things that I believe are incorrect and they're in the industry, right? So it's like,

478
00:39:55,872 --> 00:40:01,392
well, yeah, I think they even, even I say things incorrect because I would also point out,

479
00:40:01,392 --> 00:40:07,872
this is very new. So the Bitcoin treasury playbook only, I would argue, started getting

480
00:40:07,872 --> 00:40:14,171
written this book, or sorry, this year because of the perpetual preferreds that started this year,

481
00:40:14,171 --> 00:40:20,331
So before, it was only about convertible bonds and what Sealer was doing with that kind of leverage.

482
00:40:20,951 --> 00:40:22,831
Now we're on a completely new model.

483
00:40:23,412 --> 00:40:27,671
And so I think that not only are you underwriting all the risks that we've discussed,

484
00:40:27,932 --> 00:40:30,492
you're also kind of underwriting a new business model.

485
00:40:30,671 --> 00:40:36,191
And so it's almost like you're a startup VC more so than just a value investor.

486
00:40:36,191 --> 00:40:51,151
Yeah, I mean, the biggest positive I see with them is that they somehow managed to tap into this giant pond of boomer money that was inaccessible to that wasn't flowing into Bitcoin before.

487
00:40:51,291 --> 00:40:58,352
But now somehow it's like everything connects to Bitcoin in a way that it didn't before.

488
00:40:58,352 --> 00:41:04,451
Like it's even in the Swedish pension funds now because they own some micro strategy stock or something.

489
00:41:04,451 --> 00:41:10,892
So like inadvertently, like everything touches Bitcoin and all the boomer money and they're going to have to live with it.

490
00:41:11,291 --> 00:41:13,092
That's a good aspect of it, I guess.

491
00:41:13,512 --> 00:41:14,592
I think that's it.

492
00:41:14,651 --> 00:41:16,951
I think it's crucial from a political perspective.

493
00:41:17,552 --> 00:41:26,352
This is actually what minimizes the risk of a 6102 is that everybody in society has some kind of exposure to Bitcoin.

494
00:41:26,352 --> 00:41:28,751
So everybody is getting rich together.

495
00:41:28,751 --> 00:41:49,297
Yeah There is though in the EU there a 6102 light in a way because they trying as hard as they can to ban what they call unhosted wallets So they basically trying to prevent you from holding your own keys which is like vulgar to

496
00:41:50,017 --> 00:41:56,897
a Bitcoiner. I mean, I never wanted to meddle with these. Like you say, if you have to check

497
00:41:56,897 --> 00:42:03,857
the price every day, I mean, the reason I found Bitcoin so compelling, one of the reasons was that

498
00:42:03,857 --> 00:42:08,817
I didn't want to be a trader. I didn't want to watch Shards all day and not know if I was going

499
00:42:08,817 --> 00:42:15,777
to win or lose when I can just hold the sats for a decade and be happy. And I believe you can still

500
00:42:15,777 --> 00:42:21,537
do that. You're still going to win massively if you hold sats for a decade. The chances that you

501
00:42:21,537 --> 00:42:26,817
will are enormous. The upside is still enormous. So yeah, where was I going with this? I don't

502
00:42:26,817 --> 00:42:31,897
don't really know where I was going with this. Thoughts? Yeah. So, I mean, I think that to me,

503
00:42:32,237 --> 00:42:38,757
like what big picture from an economic perspective, the reason why I think Bitcoin treasury companies

504
00:42:38,757 --> 00:42:45,217
came about and will continue to grow at an astonishing rate is really because they are

505
00:42:45,217 --> 00:42:52,857
doing a speculative attack on seat currencies. And so on one hand, they are going leverage long

506
00:42:52,857 --> 00:42:59,597
Bitcoin with the equity part, let's say MSTR. On the other hand, they're shorting fiat currencies

507
00:42:59,597 --> 00:43:05,337
by issuing these perpetual preferreds. And so they, for example, you know, yesterday they announced

508
00:43:05,337 --> 00:43:12,877
STRE, which is a stream, which is aimed, it's denominated in euros. And I think it pays like

509
00:43:12,877 --> 00:43:18,197
10% yield or something like that. I'd have to go double check, but it's basically, you know,

510
00:43:18,197 --> 00:43:26,817
double digit percentage. In Europe, the current fixed income products are paying single digits,

511
00:43:27,097 --> 00:43:35,617
low single digits. And so what happens when an investor in Europe, they sell their government

512
00:43:35,617 --> 00:43:43,437
bond that's paying 1% or 2% or whatever it is, and they go buy Stream that pays 10%

513
00:43:43,437 --> 00:43:46,197
and they give euros to Michael Saylor

514
00:43:46,197 --> 00:43:48,517
and then Michael Saylor goes out and buys Bitcoin

515
00:43:48,517 --> 00:43:54,717
and then Bitcoin does better than 10% over the long run,

516
00:43:55,757 --> 00:43:58,537
that then this fixed income instrument

517
00:43:58,537 --> 00:44:03,337
was smoothing out the returns of Bitcoin in the short run

518
00:44:03,337 --> 00:44:06,597
so that the boomer has price stability

519
00:44:06,597 --> 00:44:11,137
and has income on his euros or her euros.

520
00:44:11,137 --> 00:44:15,737
and that, okay, well, wouldn't it be better

521
00:44:15,737 --> 00:44:17,797
if these people could just buy Bitcoin

522
00:44:17,797 --> 00:44:22,497
and be okay with being down 80% and then up 5,000%?

523
00:44:23,697 --> 00:44:25,737
Yes, in theory, it would be better.

524
00:44:26,197 --> 00:44:27,957
In practice, they would panic sell.

525
00:44:28,877 --> 00:44:31,257
Or they would sell too early during the bull market.

526
00:44:31,817 --> 00:44:33,717
They would make trading mistakes

527
00:44:33,717 --> 00:44:36,657
despite us yelling at them to hold it in cold storage

528
00:44:36,657 --> 00:44:37,397
and ignore it.

529
00:44:38,077 --> 00:44:40,037
And one of the reasons why is that

530
00:44:40,037 --> 00:44:46,537
either they're very risk averse or they need the income this year, right? They needed the 10%

531
00:44:46,537 --> 00:44:51,877
income this year. And so they have to go sell some percentage of the Bitcoin if they were holding

532
00:44:51,877 --> 00:44:57,597
Bitcoin. And that a lot of people are just, you know, they're worried about the principle.

533
00:44:58,337 --> 00:45:04,697
And what if Bitcoin goes sideways or down for, you know, three years that they can't hold through

534
00:45:04,697 --> 00:45:12,237
that psychologically or economically. So I think that these products are solving a real problem for

535
00:45:12,237 --> 00:45:17,317
the people buying them. And they're solving a real problem for strategy because strategy wants to get

536
00:45:17,317 --> 00:45:25,397
leveraged on Bitcoin. And so that's the two legs of the Bitcoin treasury trade. And so, you know,

537
00:45:25,397 --> 00:45:33,857
how do we get to a world without fiat? Well, the governments are going to have to do some things,

538
00:45:33,857 --> 00:45:42,057
right? If people are selling government bonds to buy Stream or any of these other fixed income

539
00:45:42,057 --> 00:45:46,497
products, the governments are either going to have to compete and raise interest rates.

540
00:45:46,997 --> 00:45:50,737
They can't do that because they're over indebted. And so that would cause

541
00:45:50,737 --> 00:45:57,457
the financial system, the fiat financial system to get into some serious problems.

542
00:45:57,457 --> 00:46:00,697
or they impose capital controls.

543
00:46:00,997 --> 00:46:04,817
You could imagine that the EU could ban strategy

544
00:46:04,817 --> 00:46:06,897
from issuing perpetual preferreds

545
00:46:06,897 --> 00:46:11,637
or Elizabeth Warren could try to ban strategy

546
00:46:11,637 --> 00:46:12,497
from holding Bitcoin.

547
00:46:12,977 --> 00:46:15,377
They could say you can't have more than 50% of your Bitcoin

548
00:46:15,377 --> 00:46:16,997
or balance sheet in Bitcoin.

549
00:46:17,917 --> 00:46:19,377
So they have capital controls.

550
00:46:19,577 --> 00:46:22,177
And I would argue that's what they tried here in the US

551
00:46:22,177 --> 00:46:24,257
with Operation Chokepoint 2.0,

552
00:46:24,657 --> 00:46:26,697
where they were trying to stop Bitcoin companies

553
00:46:26,697 --> 00:46:27,937
from having bank accounts.

554
00:46:28,497 --> 00:46:29,437
So they try to separate.

555
00:46:29,937 --> 00:46:31,497
It's funny, it's kind of the horseshoe theory.

556
00:46:31,737 --> 00:46:34,217
Like there's Bitcoiners who want to separate

557
00:46:34,217 --> 00:46:36,037
the financial system from Bitcoin.

558
00:46:36,037 --> 00:46:40,077
And there's also fiat maxis who want to do the same thing, right?

559
00:46:40,097 --> 00:46:42,717
They don't want Bitcoin to get intermingled with the financial system.

560
00:46:43,317 --> 00:46:46,997
The third thing that governments can do,

561
00:46:47,057 --> 00:46:48,257
and I think should do,

562
00:46:48,477 --> 00:46:51,257
in order to stabilize their currencies

563
00:46:51,257 --> 00:46:53,917
is to print fiat to buy Bitcoin.

564
00:46:53,917 --> 00:46:59,537
and to do that until they can back the fiat one-to-one with Bitcoin

565
00:46:59,537 --> 00:47:04,417
and speedrun the gold standard in reverse with Bitcoin.

566
00:47:05,337 --> 00:47:07,377
Yeah, we're going to have to see how that plays out

567
00:47:07,377 --> 00:47:09,737
because like that seems like...

568
00:47:09,737 --> 00:47:10,817
Those are the only three options.

569
00:47:10,977 --> 00:47:12,697
There's not like a fourth option that they have.

570
00:47:13,457 --> 00:47:17,577
Well, there's the non-option, which is just letting it die.

571
00:47:17,577 --> 00:47:26,497
And this seems to me like a dead horse having spasms.

572
00:47:26,797 --> 00:47:27,837
It's already dead.

573
00:47:28,037 --> 00:47:29,677
Fiat is already dead.

574
00:47:29,757 --> 00:47:41,997
When you can get this product based on Bitcoin that can guarantee 10% yield, which is probably not really 10% because I believe the real euro inflation is above 10%.

575
00:47:41,997 --> 00:47:43,957
And especially if it's denominating Bitcoin.

576
00:47:43,957 --> 00:47:53,517
And as an Austrian, we know that the natural state of the free market is falling prices.

577
00:47:54,177 --> 00:47:59,197
So stable currency is a lie in itself, right?

578
00:47:59,457 --> 00:48:01,717
We should have seen falling prices.

579
00:48:02,357 --> 00:48:06,937
And it's definitely not going to cover if you take that into account.

580
00:48:07,197 --> 00:48:08,257
I agree.

581
00:48:08,517 --> 00:48:11,697
I mean, it's just about having the least worst product, right?

582
00:48:11,697 --> 00:48:16,317
it's like when you're running from the bear you just have to be faster than

583
00:48:16,317 --> 00:48:22,497
the slowest person oh yeah i saw that in some some documentary about a guy that was worried

584
00:48:22,497 --> 00:48:29,957
about peak oil once yeah that very analogy but that's that's a good yeah the other analogy is

585
00:48:29,957 --> 00:48:35,437
the musical shares like that's how fiat works there's always a loser and on a bitcoin standard

586
00:48:35,437 --> 00:48:40,797
there there are no losers like we're all winning together and i think people have such a hard time

587
00:48:40,797 --> 00:48:45,097
wrapping their heads around that because they never lived in an economy where in order for

588
00:48:45,097 --> 00:48:51,917
someone to win someone else always had to live always had to lose like they never they never

589
00:48:51,917 --> 00:48:57,877
realized that it can be uh all boats rise with the tide game it doesn't have to have losers

590
00:48:57,877 --> 00:49:06,237
as the the money printing is creating the losers right so but and also like the the very notion of

591
00:49:06,237 --> 00:49:08,197
separating the two systems.

592
00:49:08,577 --> 00:49:09,877
Sure, we want Bitcoin to win

593
00:49:09,877 --> 00:49:12,017
and the dollar to eventually die,

594
00:49:12,137 --> 00:49:14,277
but us to have a lifeboat when it does.

595
00:49:15,617 --> 00:49:19,957
Still, if you just look at the internet movie database,

596
00:49:20,237 --> 00:49:21,977
are you aware of Kevin Bacon numbers

597
00:49:21,977 --> 00:49:24,037
and how interconnected people are?

598
00:49:25,377 --> 00:49:28,637
They could find six degrees of separation

599
00:49:28,637 --> 00:49:32,157
between a person who has been in a movie with Kevin Bacon.

600
00:49:32,157 --> 00:49:36,217
that has Kevin Bacon himself as Kevin Bacon number zero.

601
00:49:36,577 --> 00:49:38,277
And if you've been in a movie with him,

602
00:49:38,317 --> 00:49:39,557
you have Kevin Bacon number one.

603
00:49:39,937 --> 00:49:41,297
If you've been in a movie with a guy

604
00:49:41,297 --> 00:49:43,877
who's been in a movie with Kevin Bacon number two and so on,

605
00:49:44,197 --> 00:49:45,617
the longest chain they could find

606
00:49:45,617 --> 00:49:47,257
was six degrees of separation.

607
00:49:47,897 --> 00:49:50,157
So there is no circular economy.

608
00:49:50,317 --> 00:49:52,197
There is no fiat economy in a Bitcoin economy.

609
00:49:52,317 --> 00:49:53,137
We're all connected.

610
00:49:53,137 --> 00:49:56,497
And every action we take has an effect

611
00:49:56,497 --> 00:49:58,097
on other people's lives.

612
00:49:58,337 --> 00:50:00,017
Butterfly effects are everywhere.

613
00:50:00,017 --> 00:50:06,657
so I don't believe they do coexist for now and one is going to win and the other is going to lose in

614
00:50:06,657 --> 00:50:12,397
the end we can't have we can't have them coexist forever I don't know about that I mean I think that

615
00:50:12,397 --> 00:50:18,017
the way bitcoin wins could be through the continued existence of let's say dollars

616
00:50:18,017 --> 00:50:24,217
where one dollar equals one satoshi and so people just use those words interchangeably

617
00:50:24,217 --> 00:50:31,117
and that, you know, there's JPMorgan Chase has dollar bank accounts

618
00:50:31,117 --> 00:50:34,777
that are just, you know, you can deposit there with lightning.

619
00:50:36,217 --> 00:50:37,617
Yeah, but why though?

620
00:50:37,937 --> 00:50:43,257
It's because people are, you know, not highly regarded,

621
00:50:43,457 --> 00:50:45,117
but they're set in their ways.

622
00:50:45,717 --> 00:50:47,537
I could smell that word coming.

623
00:50:48,237 --> 00:50:48,497
Yeah.

624
00:50:48,497 --> 00:50:57,257
Yeah. You know, if you've been, it's like, do you know how many people still think the dollar is backed by gold?

625
00:50:58,037 --> 00:50:59,377
Most, I'd guess.

626
00:50:59,377 --> 00:51:04,617
Yeah, it's an astonishing percentage. And so I think there's a huge amount of momentum.

627
00:51:04,617 --> 00:51:13,897
And there's also just the ethical question of, okay, somebody was saving dollars their whole life for their pension fund.

628
00:51:13,897 --> 00:51:22,737
and then the dollar goes to zero and they don't have any savings for retirement.

629
00:51:22,737 --> 00:51:30,997
And it's not because they had any kind of moral culpability in the dollar.

630
00:51:32,057 --> 00:51:36,057
They're just basically collateral damage from this.

631
00:51:36,317 --> 00:51:43,637
And so I just think that it would be much better if we actually bridged it so that dollars become Bitcoin.

632
00:51:43,897 --> 00:51:48,177
and that dollars become backed by Bitcoin one for one.

633
00:51:49,037 --> 00:51:51,877
And you might say, well, if we're recreating the gold standard,

634
00:51:51,997 --> 00:51:53,277
won't the same thing happen again,

635
00:51:53,277 --> 00:51:57,277
where the government will default on the exchange ratio

636
00:51:57,277 --> 00:52:00,877
between dollars and Bitcoin and print too many dollars?

637
00:52:01,617 --> 00:52:02,437
Maybe, right?

638
00:52:02,577 --> 00:52:07,077
But that's certainly less bad than the alternative of the dollar going to zero.

639
00:52:08,057 --> 00:52:11,857
And that's just, I look at it from the perspective of the people

640
00:52:11,857 --> 00:52:14,877
who are relying on the continued existence of the dollar.

641
00:52:15,217 --> 00:52:17,417
And they're not all parasites, right?

642
00:52:17,457 --> 00:52:20,597
Some of them are just people who grew up in the dollar system

643
00:52:20,597 --> 00:52:21,537
and are retiring.

644
00:52:22,197 --> 00:52:24,977
No, most of them, if they are parasites,

645
00:52:25,117 --> 00:52:26,997
they're probably unaware that they are.

646
00:52:28,377 --> 00:52:31,717
But the whole system is corrupt, right?

647
00:52:31,857 --> 00:52:34,137
And there's nothing ethical about it.

648
00:52:34,657 --> 00:52:35,537
If you can conjure...

649
00:52:35,537 --> 00:52:39,477
I mean, fiduciary media is, by its very nature, unethical.

650
00:52:39,477 --> 00:52:46,177
It's giving out, conjuring up a loan out of thin air and demanding to get paid back with interest.

651
00:52:47,077 --> 00:52:50,377
It's stealing from everyone else who holds that currency.

652
00:52:50,577 --> 00:52:51,077
Yeah, sure.

653
00:52:51,237 --> 00:52:56,257
But if I look at, for example, insurance contracts are denominated in dollars.

654
00:52:56,957 --> 00:53:05,137
The insurance contract can be completely libertarian and not coercive at all and perfectly rational.

655
00:53:05,477 --> 00:53:09,457
But because it was denominated in dollars, now its value goes to zero.

656
00:53:09,477 --> 00:53:11,197
if the dollar goes to zero.

657
00:53:11,857 --> 00:53:14,257
And so I just think that there's a lot of systems

658
00:53:14,257 --> 00:53:18,097
that are depending on the dollar as a unit of account

659
00:53:18,097 --> 00:53:20,457
that if the dollar goes to zero,

660
00:53:21,057 --> 00:53:24,517
it tears apart the social fabric of society

661
00:53:24,517 --> 00:53:28,957
in a really chaotic manner that is unnecessary

662
00:53:28,957 --> 00:53:31,617
if we build bridges

663
00:53:31,617 --> 00:53:34,857
and we actually get the government to do the right thing.

664
00:53:35,957 --> 00:53:36,597
Yeah.

665
00:53:36,597 --> 00:53:45,637
uh we'll we'll see i i it's it's a it's a hopeful thought and i hope you're right and that this is a

666
00:53:45,637 --> 00:53:51,737
good transition thing because you say it's it's less bad than what the dollar is now yes but it's

667
00:53:51,737 --> 00:53:58,617
also less good than just educating people to hold their own keys and and and doing a bit properly

668
00:53:58,617 --> 00:54:05,737
do we have time right do we have the time to do that i think that you know if we had like

669
00:54:05,737 --> 00:54:08,517
how long would it take to

670
00:54:08,517 --> 00:54:10,317
onboard everyone onto Bitcoin?

671
00:54:11,037 --> 00:54:12,377
So currently, let's say

672
00:54:12,377 --> 00:54:14,497
we've got about 100,000 people

673
00:54:14,497 --> 00:54:16,577
or maybe a million people

674
00:54:16,577 --> 00:54:18,257
holding their own keys.

675
00:54:18,417 --> 00:54:19,897
I don't know what your estimate would be.

676
00:54:20,337 --> 00:54:22,317
Closer to a million, but maybe 100,000

677
00:54:22,317 --> 00:54:23,897
in the US, yes.

678
00:54:24,337 --> 00:54:25,877
Or globally, a million?

679
00:54:26,317 --> 00:54:28,757
Yeah, I don't have...

680
00:54:28,757 --> 00:54:30,337
I'm pulling numbers out of my ass.

681
00:54:31,537 --> 00:54:33,017
Let's say it's like 10 million

682
00:54:33,017 --> 00:54:34,797
even, right? In 16

683
00:54:34,797 --> 00:54:39,357
years, the growth rate has not been accelerating as far as I can tell.

684
00:54:40,157 --> 00:54:41,757
You know, on-chain is kind of empty.

685
00:54:41,857 --> 00:54:43,637
That's why we've got all this spam coming on.

686
00:54:44,357 --> 00:54:48,977
And so how many more decades would it take to get everybody onboarded?

687
00:54:49,917 --> 00:54:52,697
Well, let me offer you a perspective on that.

688
00:54:53,037 --> 00:54:57,077
Because I think the dichotomy between store of value and medium of change is

689
00:54:57,077 --> 00:55:00,657
false and like very influenced by Keynesian mindset.

690
00:55:00,657 --> 00:55:01,177
Sure.

691
00:55:01,377 --> 00:55:04,457
So I view them as two sides of the same coin.

692
00:55:04,797 --> 00:55:07,357
and medium of exchange over space and time.

693
00:55:07,357 --> 00:55:10,857
Like store value is just medium of exchange with your future self

694
00:55:12,037 --> 00:55:13,337
from a certain perspective.

695
00:55:13,337 --> 00:55:17,197
And that whole framing is just to point out that

696
00:55:18,457 --> 00:55:20,397
you can't have one without the other, really.

697
00:55:20,397 --> 00:55:24,697
And gold was a good store value and fiat was good medium of exchange.

698
00:55:24,697 --> 00:55:25,837
That's the narrative.

699
00:55:25,837 --> 00:55:28,197
And now we have something that can do both, right?

700
00:55:28,197 --> 00:55:33,257
But we still come from a fiat mindset where velocity of money is

701
00:55:33,303 --> 00:55:36,123
is an important metric, according to Keynes.

702
00:55:36,263 --> 00:55:38,843
That's why they're pro-money printing,

703
00:55:38,963 --> 00:55:43,303
because they think they create value every time a $100 bill changes hands.

704
00:55:43,703 --> 00:55:43,903
Yeah.

705
00:55:44,023 --> 00:55:46,003
That's basically the Keynesian theory.

706
00:55:46,423 --> 00:55:48,523
What they omit from the theory is that,

707
00:55:48,683 --> 00:55:50,083
yeah, but what's the alternative?

708
00:55:50,623 --> 00:55:55,203
What can that $100 bill have been used for if it had been sounder

709
00:55:55,203 --> 00:56:00,343
and people were saving and delaying gratification and so on and so forth?

710
00:56:00,343 --> 00:56:13,663
So we think that it's not being used at a medium of exchange, but maybe we just have the wrong timeframe. Maybe people just choose to not use it for 100 years. And who's to say that that's wrong or right, right?

711
00:56:13,663 --> 00:56:22,403
so if bitcoin is just and and i and i can predict like right now there there's a ton of micro

712
00:56:22,403 --> 00:56:27,223
payments everywhere you you pay to go to the bathroom in the central station somewhere in

713
00:56:27,223 --> 00:56:33,543
europe by putting a coin in a slot and to open the door blip your card at a machine somewhere

714
00:56:33,543 --> 00:56:38,463
there's always a transaction and i think on a bitcoin standard it's much more likely that you

715
00:56:38,463 --> 00:56:44,643
buy a lifetime subscription service to all the train rides you can and wash your rooms you could

716
00:56:44,643 --> 00:56:51,463
ever want because the the seller always has an incentive to acquire the bitcoin sooner rather

717
00:56:51,463 --> 00:57:00,043
than later so so what i what i take away from that is like fewer transactions in total because you

718
00:57:00,043 --> 00:57:06,983
don't need as many transactions it's like if you have 10 poor friends who eat together for 10 days

719
00:57:06,983 --> 00:57:12,223
then they all buy a pot of noodles each because no one can afford to pick up the bill if you have

720
00:57:12,223 --> 00:57:18,263
10 billionaires who eat together for 10 days then they someone picks up the bill every night

721
00:57:18,263 --> 00:57:24,463
then maybe it's the same person picks up all bills regardless there's fewer transactions taking place

722
00:57:24,463 --> 00:57:29,323
because when when everyone's wealthier and you have money that goes up in value you don't need

723
00:57:29,323 --> 00:57:34,803
to transact as often as you do when when you have inflation like the whole point of the inflation

724
00:57:34,803 --> 00:57:40,263
according to the inflationists themselves is that they want many transactions to happen.

725
00:57:41,003 --> 00:57:46,503
So yeah, thoughts about that? Yeah, I mean, I think that like one way to think about market

726
00:57:46,503 --> 00:57:52,243
share would be transactional. The other would be balance sheet, right? So Bitcoin's a $2.1 trillion

727
00:57:52,243 --> 00:58:00,783
asset at this point. Global wealth, you could say it's like $500 trillion of stocks, bonds,

728
00:58:00,783 --> 00:58:11,463
real estate, art, gold. And so how do we get more market share for Bitcoin in this context?

729
00:58:12,283 --> 00:58:20,123
I think that essentially we're firing on all cylinders on Bitcoin as a spot commodity,

730
00:58:20,343 --> 00:58:26,763
right? Whether it's because of self-sovereignty reasons that people have demand for real Bitcoin,

731
00:58:26,763 --> 00:58:32,323
or it's because they like the risk return profile and so they've got IBIT, right?

732
00:58:32,723 --> 00:58:39,303
In order to tap those other adjacent markets like the bond market or like the equity market,

733
00:58:39,703 --> 00:58:42,683
then you have to actually build products for those.

734
00:58:42,683 --> 00:58:49,563
And so I don't think that there's a path to, well, so I mean, the other path would be that

735
00:58:49,563 --> 00:58:57,883
bonds go to zero, stocks, you know, really in sats terms go to zero, and that we're only

736
00:58:57,883 --> 00:59:16,942
onboarding people onto real Bitcoin right And I feel like that the nirvana fallacy of because that would be the ideal world we going to reject the existing you know we going to it kind of the Soviet like new man thing We going to

737
00:59:17,022 --> 00:59:22,922
we're going to create a new person and he is the sovereign individual and he holds his own keys and

738
00:59:22,922 --> 00:59:29,802
he runs his own node. And we're going to reprogram society and re-educate everybody to, to, to be

739
00:59:29,802 --> 00:59:36,322
like this. And I don't know that we have time to do that. I'll be honest. I also think that

740
00:59:36,322 --> 00:59:43,502
in order to get to that pragmatically, the best way to do that is to upgrade society to Bitcoin

741
00:59:43,502 --> 00:59:51,242
through these products. And so I really see it as like long-term, even if your goal is to just

742
00:59:51,242 --> 00:59:58,442
have people self-custaining Bitcoin, the shortest path to that is all of these custodial products.

743
00:59:58,442 --> 01:00:06,382
and it's as frustrating as that may be yeah well time will tell i guess there's also like

744
01:00:06,382 --> 01:00:12,722
we we use the word we a lot here in this discussion and maybe that's like the crucial

745
01:00:12,722 --> 01:00:18,722
from from an austrian perspective that would be mistake because who's we really like what what's

746
01:00:18,722 --> 01:00:25,902
society and so on and so forth uh and there is a point to it being more important that you know

747
01:00:25,902 --> 01:00:32,782
honest and daring and intelligent people hold Bitcoin than everyone holds Bitcoin.

748
01:00:32,782 --> 01:00:39,182
Bitcoin is more for anyone than for everyone from a not your keys, not your coins perspective,

749
01:00:39,502 --> 01:00:52,942
I guess. Because right now, you can become very wealthy from quite bad behavior. You can have a

750
01:00:52,942 --> 01:00:58,542
quite immoral code of conduct and still get very wealthy. And that's much harder on a Bitcoin

751
01:00:58,542 --> 01:01:04,622
standard because you can't manipulate stuff as easily. So maybe it's more important to just

752
01:01:05,262 --> 01:01:13,742
onboard honest entrepreneurs than everyone. And then these derivatives and stuff could be for

753
01:01:13,742 --> 01:01:17,982
everyone else. Is there a middle of the bell curve thing here going on? I don't know.

754
01:01:17,982 --> 01:01:27,062
So, yeah, well, I think that it's, you know, it reminds me of like the Hal Finney forum

755
01:01:27,062 --> 01:01:31,602
post where he was saying like, oh, this is going to end up, you know, decentralizing

756
01:01:31,602 --> 01:01:34,042
the banking system, but people will still use banks.

757
01:01:34,562 --> 01:01:39,602
I think that was kind of the gist of the Bitcoin standard book from Safety and Amos as well

758
01:01:39,602 --> 01:01:41,342
and the conclusion of it.

759
01:01:41,342 --> 01:01:48,202
And I think that ultimately, the past is the best predictor of the future.

760
01:01:49,022 --> 01:01:55,662
And so I do think it'll continue to be a mix of people self-custodying and of companies,

761
01:01:56,142 --> 01:02:00,042
large platforms being trusted third-party custodians.

762
01:02:00,342 --> 01:02:05,482
But at the same time, I like to point out, all of the Bitcoin are self-custody, right?

763
01:02:05,662 --> 01:02:08,262
So Coinbase is self-custodying against Bitcoin.

764
01:02:08,262 --> 01:02:11,322
and that you've got claims on those Bitcoin

765
01:02:11,322 --> 01:02:14,362
and they have specific properties and trade-offs.

766
01:02:14,942 --> 01:02:18,302
But ultimately, from a systemic perspective,

767
01:02:18,942 --> 01:02:21,382
it's not like there is some kind of ephemeral

768
01:02:21,382 --> 01:02:23,402
permanent trusted third party here.

769
01:02:25,042 --> 01:02:28,662
No, this is the point I'm trying to make all the time

770
01:02:28,662 --> 01:02:29,862
when I talk about these things.

771
01:02:30,002 --> 01:02:32,342
And that is that some guy at Coinbase

772
01:02:32,342 --> 01:02:34,402
has a lot of power at this point

773
01:02:34,402 --> 01:02:47,780
and could just evaporate and buy an island some somewhere at any point like yeah he end up in prison like SBF right So I think that in the current context

774
01:02:47,860 --> 01:02:49,700
with great power comes great responsibility.

775
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:53,140
If we were to descend into chaos,

776
01:02:53,620 --> 01:02:55,100
maybe that would change, right?

777
01:02:55,100 --> 01:02:59,220
If there really was a destruction of society

778
01:02:59,220 --> 01:03:03,320
such that the whole judicial system fell apart,

779
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:07,460
then people could get away with just looting like that.

780
01:03:07,460 --> 01:03:09,100
But SPF went to jail.

781
01:03:09,860 --> 01:03:15,640
So I don't know that there's one person at Coinbase who has control over the keys.

782
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:22,060
I imagine they've got a slightly different system, but also that those people, they're

783
01:03:22,060 --> 01:03:26,160
getting, they are getting paid money to hold those roles, right?

784
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:29,980
They're not like doing it for free because they know they're going to be able to steal

785
01:03:29,980 --> 01:03:30,340
the Bitcoin.

786
01:03:30,340 --> 01:03:36,880
I think they're requiring to get paid because they're having to have this responsibility hanging over their head.

787
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:38,640
Yeah, absolutely.

788
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,660
And it seems to be working for now, and hopefully it does.

789
01:03:42,980 --> 01:03:50,800
Like, the not your keys, not your coins part is, for me, that was what intrigued me from the get-go.

790
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:55,860
Like, I was fascinated by the promise of something on the internet that couldn't be copied.

791
01:03:56,180 --> 01:03:59,200
And it took me like 10 years to realize why.

792
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:02,180
And that is because the coins are actually not on the internet.

793
01:04:02,420 --> 01:04:08,720
They're in people's heads, like really literally in people's heads, because it's just keeping a secret from everyone.

794
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:22,440
And also believing that the system is set up in such a robust way that it will not change to such an extent that the 21 million cap will change or something so that my coins become valueless.

795
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:24,480
So I was thinking about this the other day.

796
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:28,160
You know, we back up our private keys on metal plates.

797
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:33,480
was 12 or 24 words to be resistant to fire or flood, right?

798
01:04:34,100 --> 01:04:34,320
Yeah.

799
01:04:34,980 --> 01:04:38,760
Why don't we back up the entire Bitcoin source code

800
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:43,120
and the 600 gigabytes of transactional history

801
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:46,780
onto metal plates and just add a plate every day

802
01:04:46,780 --> 01:04:49,980
that has that day's history somewhere

803
01:04:49,980 --> 01:04:52,380
or in multiple places, right?

804
01:04:52,380 --> 01:04:56,460
That protects it from EMP attacks

805
01:04:56,460 --> 01:04:59,240
or more extreme scenarios.

806
01:04:59,700 --> 01:05:00,580
I was thinking about this.

807
01:05:00,740 --> 01:05:02,620
I asked ChatGPT how much it would cost.

808
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:03,880
About $30 million.

809
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:05,680
That's nothing.

810
01:05:06,500 --> 01:05:06,740
Yeah.

811
01:05:07,180 --> 01:05:09,280
This is a really cool project.

812
01:05:11,420 --> 01:05:14,120
Because I've been thinking for a long time,

813
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:15,740
these metal plates,

814
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:20,400
I heard somewhere there was 70 competing companies worldwide

815
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:24,980
that are manufacturing steel seed solutions.

816
01:05:24,980 --> 01:05:32,220
And my question is, will these things even exist 50 years down the line or even 10 years down the line?

817
01:05:32,460 --> 01:05:37,400
Are these things as permanent as they pretend to be?

818
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:42,620
And maybe they are, but only if we can store the rest of it.

819
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:47,560
So that would be the ultimate insurance against quantum computers, right?

820
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:54,480
Because then we can always freeze the chain in time and then solve the problem and start building on the last metal block.

821
01:05:54,980 --> 01:06:04,820
Yeah. Yeah. So 30 million, let's say you need it on all different continents. So that that's 150 million, maybe.

822
01:06:04,820 --> 01:06:05,320
Yeah.

823
01:06:07,140 --> 01:06:22,659
Super cool idea I bet that I bet that that thing would be worth more than 30 million once it actually done Well it kind of a tragedy of the commons because everybody would benefit from this right

824
01:06:23,419 --> 01:06:31,159
Yeah, but you could, being the custodian of the blockchain on metal plates, it's a pretty cool thing to be.

825
01:06:31,159 --> 01:06:39,159
like, and how big would each plate like so so so a block is at most four megs. So how much is four

826
01:06:39,159 --> 01:06:46,839
megs etched into it into metal? Like, yeah, I'd have to dig into kind of the most efficient encoding

827
01:06:46,839 --> 01:06:52,599
method, because then you want to be able to scan them back in right as well. So maybe giant QR codes.

828
01:06:52,599 --> 01:06:59,639
I don't know. Yeah, or just the hashes. But that's sort of you want the raw data. Yeah, the raw data.

829
01:06:59,639 --> 01:06:59,879
Yeah.

830
01:06:59,879 --> 01:07:06,799
So yeah, I think that, you know, it would take some laser etching, but it's not like

831
01:07:06,799 --> 01:07:08,139
it's infeasible, right?

832
01:07:08,139 --> 01:07:10,399
It's not like an unsolved physics problem.

833
01:07:10,699 --> 01:07:14,679
It's just purely, you know, a cost engineering consideration.

834
01:07:15,639 --> 01:07:16,019
Yeah.

835
01:07:16,499 --> 01:07:16,799
Yeah.

836
01:07:17,959 --> 01:07:18,819
Well, cool idea.

837
01:07:19,599 --> 01:07:24,419
Pierre, it's been absolutely great talking to you anywhere we haven't gone yet.

838
01:07:24,419 --> 01:07:27,279
The stuff you wanted to talk about that we haven't covered yet.

839
01:07:27,279 --> 01:07:33,919
no we covered so much i really appreciate the tough questions i think that it's important to

840
01:07:33,919 --> 01:07:39,959
to get people's perspectives out there yeah absolutely i think so too like civil debate is

841
01:07:39,959 --> 01:07:44,739
humans have two ways of resolving conflicts and one is aggression and the other is communication

842
01:07:44,739 --> 01:07:50,459
and i i definitely prefer the latter so so anywhere you want to send our listeners

843
01:07:50,459 --> 01:07:51,459
Where can they find you?

844
01:07:51,459 --> 01:07:53,459
Yeah, at Bitcoin tier on X.

845
01:07:53,459 --> 01:07:59,459
I'm also on Noster, but I won't, you know, spell out my whole Noster key here.

846
01:07:59,459 --> 01:08:01,459
But yeah, come and find me.

847
01:08:01,459 --> 01:08:02,459
Watch out for impersonators.

848
01:08:02,459 --> 01:08:03,459
Yeah.

849
01:08:03,459 --> 01:08:06,459
And are you coming to Historico next week?

850
01:08:06,459 --> 01:08:09,459
Unfortunately, I won't be able to make it.

851
01:08:09,459 --> 01:08:11,459
I really wanted to go, but I have a conflict.

852
01:08:11,459 --> 01:08:12,459
Oh yeah.

853
01:08:12,459 --> 01:08:15,459
I think I saw you on the list there somewhere.

854
01:08:15,459 --> 01:08:16,459
Yeah, I was a yes.

855
01:08:16,459 --> 01:08:20,539
Yes. And then something family related came up that I couldn't say no to.

856
01:08:21,259 --> 01:08:24,059
Oh, well, I hope it's something good.

857
01:08:24,419 --> 01:08:24,699
It is.

858
01:08:24,779 --> 01:08:26,179
Yeah. Good to hear.

859
01:08:26,299 --> 01:08:28,499
Family is the most important thing.

860
01:08:28,939 --> 01:08:30,819
So we won't see each other there.

861
01:08:30,859 --> 01:08:32,539
When's the next time we'll see each other?

862
01:08:32,539 --> 01:08:33,379
I don't know.

863
01:08:33,379 --> 01:08:34,499
Are you going to Las Vegas?

864
01:08:35,459 --> 01:08:37,059
Probably. No, I'm not.

865
01:08:37,259 --> 01:08:39,499
I'm boycotting them.

866
01:08:39,539 --> 01:08:40,179
That's okay.

867
01:08:40,619 --> 01:08:41,259
That's okay.

868
01:08:41,699 --> 01:08:43,139
What about BitBlockBoom?

869
01:08:43,219 --> 01:08:44,339
Gary Leland.

870
01:08:44,579 --> 01:08:46,259
I'd love to go to BitBlockBoom.

871
01:08:46,259 --> 01:08:53,039
Yeah, I think that's probably the most based Bitcoin conference in the US at the moment.

872
01:08:53,199 --> 01:08:53,779
Don't you think?

873
01:08:54,139 --> 01:08:55,039
I do think so.

874
01:08:55,219 --> 01:08:57,059
And it's an easy drive for me.

875
01:08:57,159 --> 01:08:58,419
So I'm definitely going to be there.

876
01:08:59,599 --> 01:08:59,819
Yeah.

877
01:08:59,979 --> 01:09:00,839
When is that?

878
01:09:01,859 --> 01:09:04,479
I believe that's in April.

879
01:09:04,879 --> 01:09:09,339
Let me double check for our audience so that they don't book tickets on the wrong date.

880
01:09:09,599 --> 01:09:11,459
April 9th to 12th.

881
01:09:11,459 --> 01:09:12,899
April 9th to 12th.

882
01:09:12,939 --> 01:09:14,559
Yeah, I should check that out, actually.

883
01:09:14,659 --> 01:09:15,299
I'm writing it down.

884
01:09:15,299 --> 01:09:23,799
I know I might be going to the U.S. end of next summer to Lake Satoshi.

885
01:09:24,819 --> 01:09:25,179
Oh, yeah.

886
01:09:25,959 --> 01:09:26,719
We'll see.

887
01:09:27,279 --> 01:09:28,799
Anyway, great chat.

888
01:09:29,139 --> 01:09:30,179
Good luck with everything.

889
01:09:30,499 --> 01:09:31,639
And see you next time.

890
01:09:32,039 --> 01:09:32,379
Thank you.

891
01:09:32,419 --> 01:09:32,939
See you next time.

892
01:09:45,299 --> 01:10:15,279
Thank you.