BIP-110 and the Fight for Bitcoin's Future with Hodlonaut | Bitcoin Infinity Show #191

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Mr. Cat, a dear, warm, super warm welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

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Nice to have you here again.

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Thank you, Knut.

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Yes, you've stirred the pot a bit in the Bitcoin space like the last couple of days

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by first showing support for BIP110 and then withdrawing that support.

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So that has got a lot of attention from both sides.

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And I know that a lot of people are very curious about this conversation and where this will lead and what your rationale was for, first for supporting and then for withdrawing your support.

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So we'll look into that.

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Where do you want to start this?

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Like, where do we want this conversation?

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I think, you know, the backstory that we are sitting here on the podcast now is that the two of us had a long talk yesterday on the phone.

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And, and we, or at least I realized that, you know, I think, I mean, after that call,

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I watched the mechanics latest video and I think his approach, you know, of being humble

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and just pretty brutally honest, that really resonated with me.

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And I think it's super important.

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I'm going to like, just explain because I consider it, uh, I mean, I apologized on X

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and there is a reason I apologized on X of course.

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And the reason is that I think my support for BIP110 was premature.

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It was emotional.

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And I should have taken more time to reflect and evaluate and learn more basically.

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And the reason this happened was that I have been basically disconnected fully from the

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Bitcoin space for a year, the whole of 2025.

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After this stupid five years of fighting Craig Wright came to an end, I really kind of had

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the strong urge to take some time off, to put it that way.

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I had enough of Bitcoin conversations for a while.

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I just needed to focus on other things.

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And I have been focusing on stuff here in Norway.

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I started a podcast in Norway.

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I'm basically a public, I'm not a public person, but I didn't like do any efforts to hide my

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name or identity here in Norway.

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The reason for that again is, I mean, I got fully doxxed.

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Anyone who wants to find out who I am can easily do it after Craig and CoinGeek made

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sure of that.

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So when I came back after, you know, being out of the Bitcoin bubble for a year, a lot

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had happened as we all know.

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And the main thing being this decision of Bitcoin Core to merge Core version 30 with

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the uncapping of OP return.

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So when I came back, I was kind of like mind blown to learn how this happened, like in

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which way it happened, how arrogantly Core did it, despite obvious controversy.

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I had so many red flags popping up.

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I got emotional and when I saw BIP-100, learned about BIP-110, it was like, it seemed like

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the type of response to what I consider total lack of principles from core and irresponsibility.

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So it was like very knee jerk and like emotional reaction for me to just almost blindly support

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it.

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But as I said, I came into this with like, not the most solid understanding of the whole dynamic. So what I saw as the main flags, red flags from core was, you know, the technical hand waving, which I got tons of when I started just asking questions about this.

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I didn't like the dismissive attitude.

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The whole pleb slop narrative, you know that any pleb that is in Bitcoin for very principled

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reasons shall just be hand waved away as a ridiculous spouter of slop.

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That to me is a red flag in itself.

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I saw who supported uncapping up return.

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I saw the people who like cheered that specific change on.

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Obviously the narrative of uncapping up return never made sense to me.

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It still doesn't.

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They call it harm reduction, but you know, to standardize a new avenue of spamming and

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grifting on Bitcoin, I'm just not on board with it.

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And I think it's a dangerous pivot from trying to keep Bitcoin as money and the mission of

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separating money and state.

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So I jumped into supporting the BIP110.

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I always did say I was not sure this was the best solution, but I always also said that

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I feel something has to be done to counter this seeming uncontrolled slide of principles

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that Core is exhibiting, in my opinion.

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So I kept repeating this and I kept saying that I supported BIP110, but there were things

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that were lingering in my mind as doubts and still is, which is why I withdrew my support.

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I feel like this urgency premise that we have to do something now, it has to be done now

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else it's over. Bitcoin is over. This urgency thing, that's a red flag for me.

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I think the whole CSAM thing, I'm actually not sure about that. I think it's crazy that we have

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opened up a return to basically paste in CSAM if someone would be crazy enough to do that.

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And I do see a difference of CSAM appearing on the Bitcoin blockchain as a result of a standardized

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way of doing it instead of through some segvit taproot hack with the witness discount

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i see a difference there if if nothing else it's a huge principle difference

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i had and still maybe have a little bit of a problem with edge cases where coins could

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theoretically become unspendable if you have some crazy multi-sig with time locks for example i had

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and still have some issues with understanding the governance part of the BIP110 side.

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For example, I'll be blunt and say it like, is Luke fit to be a leader of basically, you know,

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a full-on pivot of the governance side of Bitcoin?

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I respect Luke deeply, and I think he lives and bleeds Bitcoin.

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I think his intentions are as honorable as they get.

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But some of his rhetoric, I think, is wild.

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And it's a little bit hard to see that as being the official voice of Bitcoin governance in some ways.

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But I think it's even wilder to have Gloria Hsiao be the official voice of Bitcoin governance, just to make that clear.

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So I think it kind of boils down to a question, or it boils down to different things, but

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should we, like, you can do nothing or I can do something, but the something can be doing harm.

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And also doing nothing right now with the 110 is not the same as never doing anything.

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So is this our best shot?

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Is it solid enough?

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good enough for us to use as the last stand, you know, the hill we die on or not? Because I'm

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willing to die on a hill to resist what Corey is doing. That's for sure. I'm just not sure if

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BIP110 is the hill. But I do feel, you know, people saying, shall we just sit around talking

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forever? And that's something I definitely don't want to do. I think that's really bad.

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yeah if make sure the hill you choose to die on has a sufficiently uh cozy valley to live in

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beneath it yeah would that be a fair so so i would it be a fair um assessment of your position

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that uh you are not against uh bip 110 you've just withdrawn your official support so you're

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right now in the face of studying the proposal more properly before stating your official position.

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Would that be? Yeah. Because I saw some backlash in a couple of forums where they called it flip

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flopping and that you are now like, some people see you as an enemy now, whether I tried to calm

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that down by saying like, no, that's tribalism. If a guy has doubts, then like, just give him time.

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and we'll see what happens.

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It was just, you know, back to the,

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it was just so retarded to,

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in hindsight retarded,

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because I was honest

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and it wasn't like I was aware

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that I was maybe premature in my support.

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I think maybe some of it is PTSD

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from fighting scammers in Bitcoin a lot

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that I kind of jumped the gun a little bit.

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But it just felt irresponsible for me to,

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you know, I changed the whole HODLonaut avatar with the BIP110 patch and all of that stuff.

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And that felt suddenly, I had my doubts, but still the principal side of it trumped everything else.

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And just a short recap of the Giacomo talk, and I kind of feel bad for even tagging him because

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Because it's so unfair that people are attacking Giacomo like he somehow tried to convert me to leave BitP110.

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He never, with one sentence, tried to make me do anything.

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I mean, he's a friend.

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I've known him for a long time.

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I think he's one of the most honest, solid people in Bitcoin.

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I never ever caught him in any type of manipulation or dishonesty.

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And that means a lot to me because I've been here for a while now.

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So of course, his opinion gave me more doubt when his opinion is that for several reasons

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he does not support BIP-110 as of yet.

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And it came off, you know, understandably very retarded and weirdly if it was understood

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like, yeah, no, the miners don't support it. So then it's impossible. It was more like,

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I think of it like, I don't think miners are going to help this happen. I think maybe in the end,

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they could be forced to just go along with it. But I don't think it's going to be any type of

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slow trickle where we have 5% miner support, we have 10% miner. It's going to be almost like

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like a moment where it flips if it flips. And there was like something about being

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reality oriented on how uninterested the miners are in this, which it was that even that was kind

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of like flawed thinking, but that along with his opinion of the urgency part being overstated.

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And I do feel that a little bit having been in the block size wars and listened to Roger

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for years when with his amazing children are dying messaging you know we have to like uh we have to

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increase the block size for children are dying for fuck's sake but yeah so so there are there are like

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in some it just gave me more pause and doubt than i could have and still have this bip 110 support

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on X.

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But I feel ashamed of it.

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I mean, I think it's stupid.

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I think I wasted my

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credibility.

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I don't think that.

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You wasted some cred points maybe,

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but not all of them.

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But just to be clear,

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I do take a lot of self-criticism for it.

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And now I just want to, you know,

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make damn sure that I don't

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take any hard stance on this

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until I have really, really deeply evaluated it.

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And also, it's not like I think that my,

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and maybe that was my mistake,

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that more people than I,

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I had been away for a long time,

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that more people cared about what I wrote

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than I was aware,

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which made my support being,

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it was harder or it was more impossible

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to stay in support

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when I had so much doubt all of a sudden.

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Yeah, and I mean, at the end of the day, the day that people stop having self-criticism

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and just cling on to the when tribalism wins then we don have any Bitcoin anymore Getting Bitcoiners to get along is a bit like herding cats but that a good thing

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I'm still supporting BIP-110, by the way, officially.

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And I think I can sum up the reasons why by paraphrasing the great speech in Team America World Police,

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It's a Matt and Trey's puppet movie from 2006 or something, I believe.

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I remember it well.

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Yeah, so the thing is, I'm going to self-censor here a bit.

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See, there are three kinds of people.

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Ds, Ps, and A-holes, right?

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That's what it is.

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Maybe I don't need to self-censor.

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Like dicks, pusses?

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Dicks, pusses, and assholes, yes.

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There are three kinds of people, dicks, pusses, and assholes.

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I think we're far enough into the YouTube video to not get like immediately banned there.

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Pussies think everyone can get along and dicks just want to fuck all the time without thinking it through.

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But then you got your assholes and all the assholes wants to do is shit all over everything.

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So pussies may get mad at dicks once in a while because pussies get fucked by dicks.

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But dicks also fuck assholes.

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And if they didn't fuck the assholes, you know what you get?

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you get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit and here comes the paraphrasing we the plebs

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are the dicks we are the reckless arrogant stupid dicks we are reckless arrogant stupid dicks

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and the developers are pussies and the spammers are assholes pussies don't like dicks because

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pussies get fucked by dicks uh meaning us plebs but dicks also fuck assholes meaning the spammers

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assholes just want to shit over everything pussies may think they can deal with assholes in their way

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but the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick with some balls the problem with dicks is

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that they sometimes they fuck too much or fuck when it isn't appropriate and it takes a pussy

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to show them that but sometimes pussies get so full of shit that they become assholes themselves

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because pussies are only an inch away from an asshole oh my god uh it's brilliant actually

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There's so much wisdom. I don't know much in this crazy, crazy world, but I do know that if you don't let us fuck these assholes, we're going to have our dicks and our pussies all covered in shit. And I think that's the essence of this entire debate. We may be stupid and this may all be plebslop, but I do plebslop for a living and I'm not going to stop doing that.

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I think fucking the assholes is more important here than pleasing the pussies.

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So that's why I'm taking the official stance.

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I'm wholeheartedly behind, you know, what you said there.

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So if that analogy was the whole thing, we would be, you know, supporting,

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both of us would be supporting it wholeheartedly.

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Yeah.

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So a bit of history here, I think, is appropriate to get this going.

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to we need to lay out first where we're coming from we've been friends for a very long time

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behind you i think you have a picture of our first like true collaboration which is the second

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edition of the citadel 21 magazine the correct yeah which you're reviving by the way we can get

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into that later or you might be reviving it uh we're both on that cover it's made by uh cypherpunk

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now a great Bitcoin artist. Martin Fisher. Yeah. And he made but 21 of those. I know

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Giacomo has one behind him when he does the interviews and so does Katie the Russian who

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is also on there. So does Mr. HODL I think if he didn't refuse to receive it because all of the

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people who are on that poster got one of them. Yeah. And it's beautiful. And yeah, right now,

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Now, I don't have it here in Spain.

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It's still back in Sweden, but it's a beautiful, beautiful poster.

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And I aim to put it up behind me someday.

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Shout out to Martin Fisher.

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I have more of his art on my walls.

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And I think he's one of the best artists in Bitcoin history.

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Absolutely.

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When is that from, by the way, that issue?

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Probably 22.

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22.

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so it's not that old

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I mean we go back earlier than that

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I know that

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it could be 21 as well

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yeah

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because I remember in Riga 2019

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there were cutouts of the

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the Hodlunoth helmet

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and like

220
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posters saying

221
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where's Mr. Cat

222
00:18:41,347 --> 00:18:42,947
and everyone was looking for you

223
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and couldn't find you

224
00:18:44,147 --> 00:18:46,227
yeah that was so cool

225
00:18:46,227 --> 00:18:48,727
of the Honey Badger guys to support me like that

226
00:18:48,727 --> 00:18:50,327
yeah and that was

227
00:18:50,327 --> 00:18:59,507
Your first claim to fame had nothing to do with the katana expert, Dr. Craig Wright, but it was actually the lightning torch.

228
00:18:59,807 --> 00:19:03,647
So after the block size wars, when the lightning was...

229
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It was May 2020, Knut, so it was earlier than I said.

230
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Yeah, yeah.

231
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Yeah.

232
00:19:10,107 --> 00:19:11,547
So, yeah, this is way back.

233
00:19:11,847 --> 00:19:19,747
But before that, you started the lightning torch, which was basically showing the world that the lightning network actually worked.

234
00:19:19,747 --> 00:19:24,747
by increasing by one sat and sending a torch in form of...

235
00:19:24,747 --> 00:19:28,427
Yeah, it was like 10,000 sat increase per jump.

236
00:19:29,367 --> 00:19:29,787
All right.

237
00:19:30,207 --> 00:19:32,187
So, and you did that twice.

238
00:19:32,267 --> 00:19:34,647
I think I was in the second one, but not in the first one.

239
00:19:35,087 --> 00:19:38,887
Yeah, we tried to do a replay in the year after in 2020.

240
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It got kind of, it went really well

241
00:19:42,207 --> 00:19:46,227
until some guy misunderstood completely and just sent it.

242
00:19:46,227 --> 00:19:51,567
I think he sent it to Jack without even asking Jack if he wanted it, and it just stranded there.

243
00:19:51,727 --> 00:19:53,387
Yeah, funny experiment, though.

244
00:19:53,647 --> 00:20:01,607
And before that, if we do a TLDR on the block size wars, because everyone has a different memory of it, and I'd like to pick your brain on what you remember.

245
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I know that the book, The Block Size Wars, I don't think that gives a...

246
00:20:07,447 --> 00:20:11,807
It tries to be neutral, but I don't think the wars were neutral.

247
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I think it was an attempt at a hostile takeover rather than just two sides arguing for different arguments.

248
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I think there were vested interests in increasing the block size in order to centralize Bitcoin and take it over.

249
00:20:27,007 --> 00:20:31,607
And I think the immune response was against exactly that.

250
00:20:31,607 --> 00:20:42,347
I think we can confirm that suspicion or this claim just by remembering what Roger did a little later.

251
00:20:42,527 --> 00:20:44,507
He teamed up with Craig Wright.

252
00:20:45,967 --> 00:20:51,367
I think you don't need to know much more about Roger's character and intentions than that.

253
00:20:52,527 --> 00:20:58,267
No, and he also controlled Bitcoin.com, which listed Bitcoin Cash as the real Bitcoin.

254
00:20:58,267 --> 00:21:02,007
And I don't know if Roger actually invented Bitcoin Cash.

255
00:21:02,167 --> 00:21:06,987
I think he sort of, there were probably other people involved.

256
00:21:07,127 --> 00:21:17,287
But one thing to know here is that the first attempt at increasing the block size was Gavin and Mike Hearn with Bitcoin XT, right?

257
00:21:17,687 --> 00:21:18,267
So they wanted...

258
00:21:18,907 --> 00:21:22,607
Was XT before Classic or were they like parallel?

259
00:21:22,867 --> 00:21:23,607
I don't even remember.

260
00:21:23,767 --> 00:21:25,407
I think XT was the first one.

261
00:21:25,407 --> 00:21:37,207
And so what happened was Satoshi pulled out and gave the keys to the repository to Gavin, effectively making Gavin sort of the official spokesperson for Bitcoin.

262
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And I suspect that Gavin kind of liked that.

263
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And also he got advisory roles in all the surrounding companies and stuff.

264
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And he may or may not have had the, like, I'm speculating here and I don't want to, you know, be too conspiracy and bash people too much.

265
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but having said that

266
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there was clearly was an incentive for him

267
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to be on that side

268
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if not for anything else

269
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then to just increase his own influence

270
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of the project

271
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and he also

272
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he fell for the whole Craig Wright thing

273
00:22:10,327 --> 00:22:12,647
Craig Wright bamboozled Gavin later

274
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and Gavin said that this is Satoshi

275
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that's also part of the story

276
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he didn't only fool for it

277
00:22:21,287 --> 00:22:23,847
he allowed Craig to parade him around

278
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as the crown witness of his Satoshi-ness.

279
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I sat in the court in 2022 in Oslo

280
00:22:31,307 --> 00:22:33,307
listening to Craig's lawyers

281
00:22:33,307 --> 00:22:38,347
again and again read Gavin's old words

282
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about how Craig was Satoshi

283
00:22:39,767 --> 00:22:42,127
and Gavin just sat and looked at it

284
00:22:42,127 --> 00:22:44,207
and didn't come forward at all.

285
00:22:45,507 --> 00:22:48,167
No, and have we heard anything from Gavin since?

286
00:22:48,887 --> 00:22:50,867
Has there been any official statement?

287
00:22:51,007 --> 00:22:52,067
Has he apologized or something?

288
00:22:52,107 --> 00:22:53,167
I don't remember.

289
00:22:53,167 --> 00:22:54,147
I don't think so.

290
00:22:55,967 --> 00:22:57,307
So that's interesting.

291
00:22:57,567 --> 00:23:06,727
So what happened basically was that there was a cabal of some of the most profitable companies in Bitcoin at the time.

292
00:23:06,867 --> 00:23:10,147
Some of the bigger exchanges, some of the biggest miners came together.

293
00:23:11,027 --> 00:23:12,467
And what was it called?

294
00:23:12,567 --> 00:23:19,487
BitPay, the payment processor, which Jeff Garcik was an advisor to, by the way.

295
00:23:19,487 --> 00:23:40,947
And so the big blockers basically came together in a meeting in New York where they decided that, okay, we'll implement this Segwist soft fork that everyone wants, but we'll also at the same time hard fork or a couple of months after we'll hard fork and increase the block size to two megabytes, the base block size.

296
00:23:41,487 --> 00:23:43,367
Yeah, this was called Segwist 2x, right?

297
00:23:43,367 --> 00:24:03,187
Yes. And then the soft fork happened smoothly because everyone was signaling that they were for it. And then this is a very much a TLDR. There is like BIP 91 and 141 and 148, like a bunch of stuff happening that we don't need to go into that much detail.

298
00:24:03,187 --> 00:24:15,867
But what basically happened was that the users said no to the hard fork, which was then canceled because the miners were afraid of splitting the chain.

299
00:24:16,207 --> 00:24:22,127
So they canceled the 2x part of the thing because people were signaling against it.

300
00:24:22,967 --> 00:24:28,027
And around the time, there's also then the Bitcoin Cash hard fork happens, right?

301
00:24:28,027 --> 00:24:35,147
They decide that at a certain block height, they're going to split the chain into two, effectively making the 21 million, 42 million.

302
00:24:35,147 --> 00:24:38,967
So like a crossover between a Christmas present and a train crash.

303
00:24:39,287 --> 00:24:50,167
And then a future market forms where you can sort of stake your bets on which of the chains are going to win.

304
00:24:50,667 --> 00:24:57,967
And I think this futures market is a big deal in what's actually going to happen in scenarios like this.

305
00:24:58,027 --> 00:25:04,307
But now you're talking about the 2X chain or the SegWit chain, right?

306
00:25:05,327 --> 00:25:07,207
Yeah, exactly.

307
00:25:07,747 --> 00:25:12,907
Because the Bcash chain, since it's hard forked, that ran its course.

308
00:25:13,707 --> 00:25:13,987
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

309
00:25:14,187 --> 00:25:17,127
So this is pretty, yeah, I'm mixing things up here.

310
00:25:17,207 --> 00:25:22,087
But of course, the futures market is for will there be a 2X chain or not?

311
00:25:22,207 --> 00:25:25,547
And there's clearly a signal that there wouldn't be one.

312
00:25:25,547 --> 00:25:31,047
And this played a big role in why the miners capitulated, I think.

313
00:25:31,547 --> 00:25:34,147
And a lot of that had to do with this user-activated software.

314
00:25:34,507 --> 00:25:38,707
Also to be remembered, Yihan Wu and Bitmain had something called ASIC Boost,

315
00:25:39,427 --> 00:25:43,827
which is, it's not proven that they actually ever used it,

316
00:25:44,247 --> 00:25:52,027
but it was a way for their miners to mine more efficiently than competing miners.

317
00:25:52,027 --> 00:25:59,647
It was like a small bug in the hashing algorithm or in SHA-256, I think, that you could hash

318
00:25:59,647 --> 00:26:03,387
like 10% faster or something with this implementation.

319
00:26:04,447 --> 00:26:05,947
And SegWit would prevent that.

320
00:26:06,107 --> 00:26:08,827
So it would prevent the head start that Bitmain had.

321
00:26:08,967 --> 00:26:12,487
That made Bitmain dig in pretty hard against it.

322
00:26:13,327 --> 00:26:13,487
Yeah.

323
00:26:14,187 --> 00:26:22,007
So, and what we have now is a similar situation, but the big difference is that this time around,

324
00:26:22,027 --> 00:26:28,447
core is not on the same side as the intolerant minority of plebs.

325
00:26:28,627 --> 00:26:31,487
Because we had an intolerant minority of plebs.

326
00:26:31,487 --> 00:26:33,987
That's what triggered the block size wars.

327
00:26:34,247 --> 00:26:37,687
That thing too, like that prevented that hard fork from happening.

328
00:26:38,207 --> 00:26:42,487
So right now we're in the stages of having a, there's a proposed soft fork.

329
00:26:42,667 --> 00:26:48,107
We don't know if it will lead to a hard fork, but that's one of the concerns is that it

330
00:26:48,107 --> 00:26:51,287
might lead to a hard fork and nobody sort of wants that.

331
00:26:52,027 --> 00:26:56,987
Yeah, I think the dynamics are rather different, even though, I mean, I agree with what you say,

332
00:26:56,987 --> 00:27:04,007
but back then it was like, I mean, from my perspective, it was like everyone pretty much

333
00:27:04,007 --> 00:27:12,287
in Bitcoin or the huge majority viewed the big block thing as an attack on the status quo.

334
00:27:12,547 --> 00:27:17,167
And now it's kind of like turned around a little bit because I'm probably entrenched by the fact

335
00:27:17,167 --> 00:27:23,207
that core has always been on the side of and seen as good actors and, you know, solid Bitcoiners.

336
00:27:23,467 --> 00:27:32,587
And right now it's kind of different. It's like, it's easy for the pro V30 people to portray the

337
00:27:32,587 --> 00:27:39,787
big 110 people as, you know, attacking the status quo, so to say, or like doing one thing to do

338
00:27:39,787 --> 00:27:57,794
reckless things And I think that a that an interesting debate on its own like because I seen quite a few people while I supported BIP110 trying to like put me like oh you basically a BSV now or like which

339
00:27:57,794 --> 00:28:04,714
is insane to me. So which one of these sides can credibly claim that the other side reminds

340
00:28:04,714 --> 00:28:10,334
most of the big blockers back then? Yeah, and that's a super interesting discussion

341
00:28:10,334 --> 00:28:14,634
because the first change,

342
00:28:14,774 --> 00:28:16,254
the controversial change

343
00:28:16,254 --> 00:28:17,854
that people were opposed to

344
00:28:17,854 --> 00:28:22,054
was the op return policy increase,

345
00:28:22,174 --> 00:28:23,854
which is not a consensus change,

346
00:28:24,074 --> 00:28:26,334
but still a change to a policy

347
00:28:26,334 --> 00:28:27,854
that most of the,

348
00:28:27,914 --> 00:28:30,234
or at least 20% of the plebs

349
00:28:30,234 --> 00:28:31,014
didn't agree to.

350
00:28:31,174 --> 00:28:33,394
I mean, it's a standardization, right?

351
00:28:33,734 --> 00:28:33,894
Yeah.

352
00:28:34,774 --> 00:28:36,574
Yeah, so it is signaling

353
00:28:36,574 --> 00:28:40,414
that these things are okay now.

354
00:28:40,594 --> 00:28:41,554
Go and do them here.

355
00:28:42,654 --> 00:28:45,574
Which is a very, very, it's subtle,

356
00:28:45,574 --> 00:28:50,714
but it is a change from the attitude in Bitcoin

357
00:28:50,714 --> 00:28:52,774
back in 2017, I think.

358
00:28:53,334 --> 00:28:53,894
Yes, I agree.

359
00:28:55,334 --> 00:29:02,194
So, and I hope I'm not misrepresenting any stance here,

360
00:29:02,274 --> 00:29:05,354
but I think the argument from Core is that this,

361
00:29:05,354 --> 00:29:11,094
In the end, this results in something less harmful than if we kept things the way they were.

362
00:29:11,294 --> 00:29:14,974
And on the other side, you have, we don't care if it's less harmful or not.

363
00:29:15,054 --> 00:29:18,274
We want to fight these things completely, and we don't want them here.

364
00:29:18,394 --> 00:29:21,854
We want to kick them out, while the core side is saying that it's futile,

365
00:29:22,014 --> 00:29:25,334
and spam can always be crammed in in other different ways.

366
00:29:25,514 --> 00:29:29,134
And therein lies the core of the conflict, pardon the pun.

367
00:29:29,134 --> 00:29:36,614
Yeah. And the more like, that's the one thing that the more I reflect on it and think about it,

368
00:29:36,614 --> 00:29:43,214
and the more I hear the rationale or the attempted rationale, it just makes less and less sense to

369
00:29:43,214 --> 00:29:49,954
me. And just like the first principle of, oh, it's possible to abuse the Bitcoin blockchain

370
00:29:49,954 --> 00:29:56,714
with this Segwit taproot hack and the witness discount to cram bullshit in there in very

371
00:29:56,714 --> 00:30:02,974
complex ways that you basically need third party applications to be able to view them.

372
00:30:02,974 --> 00:30:12,474
Let's just uncap up return and make it possible. Let's open a huge new door and standardize that.

373
00:30:13,194 --> 00:30:21,234
The signal and the philosophical impact of that from the reference implementation is unacceptable

374
00:30:21,234 --> 00:30:28,414
to me. Yeah, so the question then becomes, what shall we do about it and when? And the proposal

375
00:30:28,414 --> 00:30:37,634
is BIP110. Yeah, and I love the concept of limiting up return as a consensus rule.

376
00:30:39,214 --> 00:30:46,074
Yeah, so yeah, I love that too, like because all of a sudden it's consensus and you don't have this,

377
00:30:46,074 --> 00:30:49,094
You're forcing the network to make a decision, basically.

378
00:30:50,074 --> 00:30:56,314
So maybe we should go through the points of the fork, or maybe a bit of other preamble here.

379
00:30:56,734 --> 00:31:08,374
I think another thing here, and why the BIP is controversial, is that some fringe use cases that has to do with, what's it called,

380
00:31:08,374 --> 00:31:12,294
Tapscript and some time block functions, Miniscript.

381
00:31:12,954 --> 00:31:17,454
Yeah, some really, really advanced features of Bitcoin.

382
00:31:17,594 --> 00:31:23,954
Like you have this, I met a lot of developer types in Bitcoin that have this vision of

383
00:31:23,954 --> 00:31:29,314
if we can make it more complex and if we can allow it to be more programmable,

384
00:31:29,314 --> 00:31:30,874
we get all these nice features.

385
00:31:31,574 --> 00:31:37,354
And my approach has always been before deciding your opinion on anything in this,

386
00:31:37,354 --> 00:31:42,554
ask yourself, does this make Bitcoin better money? And to be better money is very simple.

387
00:31:42,554 --> 00:31:50,774
You have the six or seven properties of money, and you have money solves two problems. It's the

388
00:31:50,774 --> 00:31:58,614
mutual coincidence of need problem, which allows money to be better than barter.

389
00:31:59,354 --> 00:32:04,254
And then there's economic calculation. It allows you to do economic calculation,

390
00:32:04,254 --> 00:32:14,534
And the more fixed the supply, the more predictable the schedule, the more predictable and stable everything is, the better it functions at that, basically, which is why you shouldn't fuck with it.

391
00:32:14,874 --> 00:32:26,094
So fucking with it, there's always a cost to fucking with the rules because it may fuck up an incentive here or there, thereby making it less good as money because it's now less predictable.

392
00:32:26,094 --> 00:32:35,394
And it doesn't matter if you have a smart contract feature in which you can time lock one out of seven signing participants.

393
00:32:35,894 --> 00:32:39,094
That is always inferior to me.

394
00:32:39,414 --> 00:32:47,254
To me, that's always inferior to just, I hate the word ossifying, but to just leave Bitcoin alone and don't fiddle around with it.

395
00:32:47,814 --> 00:32:52,354
There's a fuck around and find out part to doing so.

396
00:32:52,354 --> 00:32:59,694
I always loved the term ossify, but it's probably because I'm a ridiculously stupid plebslopspouter.

397
00:33:01,594 --> 00:33:07,834
I don't think Bitcoin can ossify because at the end of the day is people voluntarily choosing software.

398
00:33:07,834 --> 00:33:11,334
But the concept being, you know, that fuck all this innovation.

399
00:33:11,834 --> 00:33:21,894
We have already now something that is completely disruptive to a lot of the worst shit going on in the world because of the money system.

400
00:33:22,354 --> 00:33:23,674
Why should we risk it?

401
00:33:24,294 --> 00:33:27,914
And I just want to put something in there that I thought about when you talked now,

402
00:33:27,914 --> 00:33:29,894
like the arguments.

403
00:33:30,674 --> 00:33:36,614
One thing that triggers me and that is a red flag for me is bad faith arguments

404
00:33:36,614 --> 00:33:45,254
and arguments that are basically false or exaggerated or designed to create FUD.

405
00:33:46,114 --> 00:33:49,354
And I want to throw in one argument that I've seen,

406
00:33:49,534 --> 00:33:52,094
and that's been picked up by a lot of people.

407
00:33:52,094 --> 00:33:56,134
It's basically that BIP-110 breaks multisig.

408
00:33:57,414 --> 00:34:05,134
And suddenly you have, I mean, so many Bitcoiners secure their coins with different multisig solutions, usually two out of three.

409
00:34:06,694 --> 00:34:18,574
And when you saw this suspicion or argument that BIP-110 is a threat to your cold storage if you run a regular multisig, that's a very bad faith argument to me because it doesn't.

410
00:34:18,574 --> 00:34:27,394
similarly to the argument on the other side on the pro BIP 110 side that someone is is claiming

411
00:34:27,394 --> 00:34:33,914
that Bitcoin is 100% dead if we don't do something now it's urgent and it has to happen now

412
00:34:33,914 --> 00:34:40,854
but that doesn't I mean I'm just throwing this out there because I think that's two examples of

413
00:34:40,854 --> 00:34:48,254
things that I personally don't uh find any truth in were you pro taproot

414
00:34:48,254 --> 00:34:59,014
yeah but it was based uh on uh trusting other people yeah same here based on and i think that

415
00:34:59,014 --> 00:35:06,054
was one of the really cool things about mechanics last video that he kind of owned up to having been

416
00:35:06,054 --> 00:35:14,474
to that he took self-criticism for some of the mechanics and stuff that happened in the block

417
00:35:14,474 --> 00:35:19,654
size war. And I think honesty, also looking back, is really important that we have to be

418
00:35:19,654 --> 00:35:26,214
honest about things. Yeah. The way I see, we won one battle. So we proved that Bitcoin can

419
00:35:26,214 --> 00:35:34,234
be like this, decentralized enough to withstand attacks. We didn't prove that it would always be,

420
00:35:34,314 --> 00:35:38,734
and we didn't prove that that was always going to be the case. We just proved that we had the

421
00:35:38,734 --> 00:35:46,054
ability to resist a hostile takeover and taproot uh i was for it too because i've been convinced by

422
00:35:46,054 --> 00:35:52,694
some technical arguments about coin joins and and making making basically making transactions more

423
00:35:52,694 --> 00:36:00,614
private and more anonymous because of the like same lengthness of but uh in hindsight i think

424
00:36:00,614 --> 00:36:06,414
it came with side effects that were definitely not worth it and i'm with jimmy song's stance on this

425
00:36:06,414 --> 00:36:11,754
says that in hindsight, we probably should have been a bit more self-critical.

426
00:36:11,754 --> 00:36:18,734
And that adds credibility and weight to the ossification argument, or call it not ossification,

427
00:36:19,134 --> 00:36:25,974
but like the resistance to big changes or the resistance to this innovation narrative.

428
00:36:26,294 --> 00:36:31,634
Yeah, because when that is actually the case, when Bitcoin is actually resistant to change,

429
00:36:31,634 --> 00:36:37,214
sufficiently resistant to change. Theoretically, at least, that means that Bitcoin can only change

430
00:36:37,214 --> 00:36:42,254
for the better, which is like the opposite of a democracy. But it means that if we have such

431
00:36:42,254 --> 00:36:46,654
overwhelming consensus that we will change it, then everyone thought it was a good idea,

432
00:36:46,894 --> 00:36:51,274
meaning that we can define what good is by that metric alone.

433
00:36:51,274 --> 00:36:58,614
Yeah. After we won the block size war, I think I could go back and find tons of tweets about this

434
00:36:58,614 --> 00:37:04,754
from hudlonot that you know let's not risk this again guys let's like let's let's stay

435
00:37:04,754 --> 00:37:11,274
sober now and not do crazy shit anymore now we have what we have what we need let's not get crazy

436
00:37:11,274 --> 00:37:19,154
and the analogy would be if i lived with my family in some almost paradise place i almost said island

437
00:37:19,154 --> 00:37:26,054
but i think you can't use the word island positively anymore uh but at least not when you

438
00:37:26,054 --> 00:37:31,894
children on it. Anyways, if I had a nice setup with my life and with the things that really

439
00:37:31,894 --> 00:37:39,894
mattered to me, no way in hell would I start risking that for like small potential increments

440
00:37:39,894 --> 00:37:45,414
of even more happiness, you know? Yeah, no, no, no. When the alternative outcome can be that

441
00:37:45,414 --> 00:37:51,974
a dragon comes flying in and burns down my family and everything. That's just like very simple logic

442
00:37:51,974 --> 00:38:01,654
to me. Yeah, exactly. And I think that kind of brings us into this because it's a weird situation.

443
00:38:01,654 --> 00:38:07,014
It's like, I have this position that I don't want Bitcoin to change. And then I'm seeing core

444
00:38:08,134 --> 00:38:17,014
pushing change in a direction I hate. And then there is no solution to just sit still and continue

445
00:38:17,014 --> 00:38:22,354
need to let that happen because that's like slow motion dragon flying into torch everything I love.

446
00:38:22,354 --> 00:38:31,074
Yeah. But also I don't want to risk releasing another dragon that flies way faster and like

447
00:38:31,074 --> 00:38:38,614
the resistance leading to even faster destruction. And also it's a very difficult situation right now,

448
00:38:38,634 --> 00:38:46,914
I think. Yeah, I totally agree. It's hard to know what the proper stance is. And our reputation

449
00:38:46,914 --> 00:38:53,274
are on the line after after this is has played out regardless of which side that wins we're gonna

450
00:38:53,274 --> 00:38:59,134
our tweets are gonna haunt us that's always the case i don't care about outcome um i mean i care

451
00:38:59,134 --> 00:39:06,214
about if my intention was honest and i can't do anything more than contributing my most honest

452
00:39:06,214 --> 00:39:12,354
words and actions and if they were wrong so be it you know here's here's another interesting uh

453
00:39:12,354 --> 00:39:17,134
conversation I had with Jimmy Song about being principled versus being utilitarian.

454
00:39:17,874 --> 00:39:25,934
And I think the way I see it, the lower your time preference, the more utilitarian your

455
00:39:25,934 --> 00:39:31,994
principles become. So being principled is utilitarian, but only if you have an extremely

456
00:39:31,994 --> 00:39:37,034
low time preference. If you can extrapolate your time preference into forever, then a principled

457
00:39:37,034 --> 00:39:44,594
approach to everything is the correct one. Whereas utilitarianism, like making your decisions not

458
00:39:44,594 --> 00:39:49,914
because you believe in them from first principles, but because of an outcome you find more or less

459
00:39:49,914 --> 00:39:56,834
likely, is sort of a high-time preference thing. And here's to me where this becomes so fucking

460
00:39:56,834 --> 00:40:04,414
tricky in Bitcoin, because the utility of signaling pro this fork and everything is that it might

461
00:40:04,414 --> 00:40:10,934
scare off spammers. And it's seemingly so because now fees are low and there isn't as much spam as

462
00:40:10,934 --> 00:40:16,434
there was because I think that some of these people are getting cold feet. And that's the

463
00:40:16,434 --> 00:40:22,134
same thing with also, you know, developers who want to do really advanced features in wallets.

464
00:40:22,134 --> 00:40:27,854
I mean, the more fringe you become in Bitcoin and the more fringe things you do, the more your

465
00:40:27,854 --> 00:40:35,954
coins are at risk. And that was always the case. If you decide to make a transaction that you know

466
00:40:35,954 --> 00:40:43,214
that a part of the community does not approve of, or we don't like that transaction, we are

467
00:40:43,214 --> 00:40:48,614
tolerating it, but we don't approve of it, like an NFT on Bitcoin, for instance, of a stupid

468
00:40:48,614 --> 00:40:54,974
dick pic or whatever, monkey JPEG, then that is a riskier transaction. But because at some point,

469
00:40:54,974 --> 00:40:59,474
there's the risk that that feature will be soft forked away.

470
00:40:59,474 --> 00:41:06,054
Or by some consensus rule change, those coins are at risk.

471
00:41:06,174 --> 00:41:10,694
And I think what BIP110 does and what this proposed cat thing

472
00:41:10,694 --> 00:41:13,194
that is probably not going anywhere,

473
00:41:13,354 --> 00:41:16,314
but just the threat of that thing happening

474
00:41:16,314 --> 00:41:18,294
and doing this whack-a-mole thing,

475
00:41:18,374 --> 00:41:20,194
I think that scared off some spammers.

476
00:41:20,754 --> 00:41:23,194
Some of them are signaling that we don't care what you do,

477
00:41:23,254 --> 00:41:24,634
we're always going to find new ways.

478
00:41:24,634 --> 00:41:26,034
but I don't really buy that.

479
00:41:26,534 --> 00:41:31,034
It's a, I mean, it's, it's decentralized threat against centralization.

480
00:41:31,034 --> 00:41:46,021
It and and and grifters they always would want more centralization Should should should we try to run through what we consider what is against BIP

481
00:41:46,021 --> 00:41:47,881
or what gives us pause

482
00:41:47,881 --> 00:41:50,381
and what gives us the desire

483
00:41:50,381 --> 00:41:51,321
to die on the hill?

484
00:41:52,161 --> 00:41:55,081
Yes, I have the website up here,

485
00:41:55,601 --> 00:41:57,401
BIP-110.org

486
00:41:57,401 --> 00:41:59,141
and we can just go through

487
00:41:59,141 --> 00:42:00,421
the entire thing

488
00:42:00,421 --> 00:42:01,381
and see how much of it

489
00:42:01,381 --> 00:42:02,601
we understand to begin with.

490
00:42:02,841 --> 00:42:04,781
And then...

491
00:42:04,801 --> 00:42:15,361
I'm up for that, but I was thinking more like the, not only, you know, the actual changes, but like the whole, the broader situation of it and how we interpret it.

492
00:42:15,541 --> 00:42:20,861
What is like, what is the reason that you are on the hill?

493
00:42:21,421 --> 00:42:26,381
And what is the reason, what, if any reasons, do you see as against it?

494
00:42:27,061 --> 00:42:32,381
Well, the Dick's Pussies and Assholes position is my, that's my stance.

495
00:42:33,121 --> 00:42:34,261
That's the hill I'm dying on.

496
00:42:34,261 --> 00:42:51,441
But I think Mechanic is right in saying that this doesn't require that much, much more than 10% for miners to just go on mining on this chain because they have basically nothing to lose from doing so.

497
00:42:51,581 --> 00:42:56,221
Miners are not making that much from putting spam on the chain as people think.

498
00:42:56,221 --> 00:43:06,401
But then, like, I think, you know, just to look at the percent is kind of, I mean, there are, we have to be honest and say that no, there are difference between nodes.

499
00:43:06,501 --> 00:43:20,401
You have like super connected, crazy big economic nodes and you have a pleb number 1438 that runs a node at home and they are different.

500
00:43:20,401 --> 00:43:28,141
And I think definitely we will need some of these economic nodes to support it or we will need, BIP-110 will need.

501
00:43:28,981 --> 00:43:31,561
Slightly different opinion there.

502
00:43:31,721 --> 00:43:49,761
I think that right now the node count signaling for BIP-110 is around 7.5%, which is very close to 10, which is the, paraphrasing here, what I think is mechanics opinion is that that's around how much we need because then we will just have to fold.

503
00:43:49,761 --> 00:44:07,201
Because we don't know whether these nodes signaling, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think I got this right, that there is no way to actually know whether a node signaling for this is an actual heavyweight economic node or not.

504
00:44:07,421 --> 00:44:11,421
You can only see that it's signaling for it or not.

505
00:44:11,421 --> 00:44:19,741
So you don't know how much significance that node has when push comes to show.

506
00:44:19,761 --> 00:44:27,461
in September. And so right now, we have basically no miners signaling for this yet. Then again,

507
00:44:27,561 --> 00:44:35,641
they have up until September to start signaling for it. And if there's a 55% threshold of miners

508
00:44:35,641 --> 00:44:43,701
before that, then the software will just happen. And if there's not consensus, all of the users

509
00:44:43,701 --> 00:44:46,061
that are willing to die on this hill

510
00:44:46,061 --> 00:44:49,061
will just reject any block

511
00:44:49,061 --> 00:44:51,061
that doesn't follow the tighter rules.

512
00:44:51,181 --> 00:44:52,641
So the incentive for the miner,

513
00:44:53,501 --> 00:44:55,901
and sure, go comment and stuff,

514
00:44:56,421 --> 00:44:57,281
brush your teeth first,

515
00:44:57,441 --> 00:44:59,981
but tell me why I'm an idiot and stuff

516
00:44:59,981 --> 00:45:01,341
and why Hodl or not is an idiot

517
00:45:01,341 --> 00:45:03,241
in the comments, of course.

518
00:45:03,461 --> 00:45:05,761
But the theory is that

519
00:45:05,761 --> 00:45:07,541
there's no reason for them

520
00:45:07,541 --> 00:45:08,861
to not follow that chain

521
00:45:08,861 --> 00:45:10,981
because the rules are tighter.

522
00:45:10,981 --> 00:45:16,901
so every block that is compliant with BIP110

523
00:45:16,901 --> 00:45:20,341
is also compliant with the loser rules.

524
00:45:22,261 --> 00:45:23,981
You understand where I'm going with this?

525
00:45:23,981 --> 00:45:28,981
And for the miner, there is a risk of mining the blocks

526
00:45:29,501 --> 00:45:30,941
with the bigger op returns and stuff

527
00:45:30,941 --> 00:45:34,941
because that has a risk of being rejected by the network.

528
00:45:35,801 --> 00:45:37,861
So why would they take that risk

529
00:45:37,861 --> 00:45:39,881
when there's not that much reward in it?

530
00:45:39,881 --> 00:45:47,761
And for that to happen, the estimate is that we need around 10% support.

531
00:45:47,941 --> 00:45:49,541
Somewhat by that.

532
00:45:49,741 --> 00:45:55,441
I mean, the thing is, even with the block size wars, there are so many interpretations of what actually happened.

533
00:45:55,961 --> 00:46:03,561
And it's very hard in a decentralized system to have any kind of objective view of what was actually going on.

534
00:46:03,621 --> 00:46:07,721
So I think it's very hard to assess the probability of this and that happening.

535
00:46:07,721 --> 00:46:12,641
And I know a lot of big names in Bitcoin have very different opinions on it.

536
00:46:12,841 --> 00:46:16,221
I don't agree with Tone Vase triangle thingy.

537
00:46:16,401 --> 00:46:18,521
I think that's misguided.

538
00:46:19,381 --> 00:46:22,341
I stopped listening to Tone Vase a long time ago.

539
00:46:22,801 --> 00:46:27,721
I don't because there is to me that's he is noise in my opinion.

540
00:46:28,641 --> 00:46:33,601
Yeah, I did a one of his Knotts versus Core series.

541
00:46:33,601 --> 00:46:37,781
like him and Jimmy interviewed me in San Salvador.

542
00:46:38,581 --> 00:46:40,361
And now they've done the last one, I think.

543
00:46:40,621 --> 00:46:44,961
Or Tone did one with Vortex after he did one with just Jimmy.

544
00:46:45,301 --> 00:46:47,681
But the one with Jimmy is very interesting.

545
00:46:47,881 --> 00:46:50,601
I'd recommend that one, even though, yeah,

546
00:46:50,701 --> 00:46:54,581
they are time-consuming to listen to these things.

547
00:46:56,661 --> 00:47:00,121
But yeah, as I said, it's hard to get a neutral position.

548
00:47:00,121 --> 00:47:08,741
What I don't like sometimes in the knots camp is this tribalism or this, if you're not for us, you're against us kind of attitude.

549
00:47:09,161 --> 00:47:10,401
I don't think that helps.

550
00:47:10,601 --> 00:47:14,141
I think that sort of, I understand where they're coming from.

551
00:47:14,881 --> 00:47:19,001
And a lot of them are passionate and fighting for Bitcoin's soul.

552
00:47:19,741 --> 00:47:20,541
We are too.

553
00:47:21,161 --> 00:47:27,541
It's just that, like, I think there's a point to diplomacy for sure.

554
00:47:27,541 --> 00:47:33,421
yeah well i fully understand it and i think it comes from you know it comes from a place where

555
00:47:33,421 --> 00:47:41,781
you really want to defend something and i got my fair share of shit last uh 24 hours or so uh 48

556
00:47:41,781 --> 00:47:47,781
hours but i mean i'm taking i'm taking it on the chin because i kind of think i deserved it

557
00:47:47,781 --> 00:47:55,521
a little bit and uh for the flip-flopping and like my lack of wisdom in jumping to something but

558
00:47:55,521 --> 00:48:02,081
But I do understand it and I do understand the disappointment when you think this is

559
00:48:02,081 --> 00:48:04,261
a really, really important fight.

560
00:48:04,261 --> 00:48:10,021
If you think someone like, or if you even suspect that someone has, and that's kind

561
00:48:10,021 --> 00:48:16,761
of the problem here that it's making the jump to thinking someone is compromised happens

562
00:48:16,761 --> 00:48:24,281
a little bit too fast for some people, I think, which is unfortunate, but it's also understandable,

563
00:48:24,281 --> 00:48:29,221
in the world we live in today with all the fucking crazy shit that is coming out, you

564
00:48:29,221 --> 00:48:30,221
know?

565
00:48:30,221 --> 00:48:34,521
So, do you want me to just quickly go through my...

566
00:48:34,521 --> 00:48:40,721
Yeah, just one more point on the diplomacy thing before I forget it, ADD brain.

567
00:48:40,721 --> 00:48:49,241
But that is this, I think you can draw a line between two extremes, like the extreme cypherpunk

568
00:48:49,241 --> 00:48:56,981
ethos bitcoiner to uh and on the opposite side of there you have david bailey which think a bitcoiner

569
00:48:56,981 --> 00:49:03,241
who thinks adoption is is everything and it doesn't matter who the fuck you you steamroll over

570
00:49:03,241 --> 00:49:11,521
uh in the way to adoption i mean i think if david bailey could earn money on the adoption going down

571
00:49:11,521 --> 00:49:17,461
he would be against yeah yeah so maybe yeah yeah absolutely he's a bad example but say someone who

572
00:49:17,461 --> 00:49:23,361
just wants bitcoin to be adopted by as many people as possible by all means necessary i think that

573
00:49:23,361 --> 00:49:30,361
extreme adoption thing is counterproductive because if if someone tries shit coins for one

574
00:49:30,361 --> 00:49:34,321
cycle it will take them another decade before they can figure out the difference between

575
00:49:34,321 --> 00:49:41,381
bitcoin and shit coins and therefore like the these confusing conferences and and and articles

576
00:49:41,381 --> 00:49:42,241
written about that.

577
00:49:42,521 --> 00:49:45,521
They're not adding to real adoption.

578
00:49:45,861 --> 00:49:47,781
I mean, paper Bitcoin is not Bitcoin.

579
00:49:48,421 --> 00:49:50,441
More ETFs adopting Bitcoin

580
00:49:50,441 --> 00:49:52,301
is not really more adoption of Bitcoin.

581
00:49:52,501 --> 00:49:54,341
It's more adoption of paper Bitcoin.

582
00:49:54,741 --> 00:49:56,281
Maybe it's even an adoption.

583
00:49:56,901 --> 00:49:58,821
Yeah, but at the same time,

584
00:49:58,821 --> 00:50:02,901
if you have too far on the other side of the extreme,

585
00:50:03,101 --> 00:50:05,261
that it's just this fringe,

586
00:50:05,421 --> 00:50:07,961
hate everyone else in society

587
00:50:07,961 --> 00:50:11,241
type of super cypherpunk ethos person,

588
00:50:11,381 --> 00:50:14,021
Then you get no adoption and we can play around.

589
00:50:14,301 --> 00:50:19,681
And that doesn't work either if we're going to take on the central banks at some point.

590
00:50:20,021 --> 00:50:22,641
So I think there's a balance to be struck there.

591
00:50:23,641 --> 00:50:30,381
And it's very hard to know where the appropriate stance is and where you...

592
00:50:30,921 --> 00:50:32,181
Yeah, for sure.

593
00:50:32,421 --> 00:50:37,201
So we can only do our best in trying to navigate this.

594
00:50:37,201 --> 00:50:41,701
And I mean, that's what I've been doing.

595
00:50:41,821 --> 00:50:45,641
I just made the mistake of being premature.

596
00:50:46,201 --> 00:50:48,521
It turned out I didn't think I was premature,

597
00:50:48,701 --> 00:50:52,321
but now I'm going to like make damn sure

598
00:50:52,321 --> 00:50:58,681
that I don't take any firm side unless or until I am sure of it.

599
00:50:58,861 --> 00:51:01,061
Because as I tried to get across,

600
00:51:01,121 --> 00:51:05,701
it's not like I look at BIP-110 as anything resembling,

601
00:51:05,701 --> 00:51:16,141
you know, bad fate or attack or I applaud it. And I applaud, you know, anyone who wants to fight for

602
00:51:16,141 --> 00:51:23,041
Bitcoin. You were just in support prematurely in full support of it. All right. Correct. So yeah,

603
00:51:23,181 --> 00:51:29,581
let's go through it. Yeah. And it's not a long list or anything like that. And maybe it's not

604
00:51:29,581 --> 00:51:34,301
even exhaustive for what I'm thinking, but it's what I just jotted down before we got on this call.

605
00:51:34,301 --> 00:51:43,901
And if I first do the four, the pro BIP-110 things, on top, I just wrote principles in

606
00:51:43,901 --> 00:51:47,561
big letters because that's like the real big deal for me.

607
00:51:47,561 --> 00:51:52,641
Because I really believe that if you start compromising on principles with technical

608
00:51:52,641 --> 00:51:58,081
hand waving and huge word salads and saying everyone who doesn't understand this is a

609
00:51:58,081 --> 00:52:04,241
non-technical idiot, that's like a surefire way that Bitcoin is going to be Ethereum.

610
00:52:04,241 --> 00:52:12,481
and worse down the road. So that is like 100% something that made me want to support BIP110.

611
00:52:13,201 --> 00:52:21,441
Bitcoin is money and spam is not money. I love the thought of rugging these spammers. I'm so

612
00:52:21,441 --> 00:52:30,321
fucking tired of all these lying grifters who misrepresent things and try to basically harm

613
00:52:30,321 --> 00:52:38,001
Bitcoin to personally enrich themselves. The fact that's throughout like the flags around

614
00:52:38,001 --> 00:52:45,001
the whole Citria launch and the timing and all of that, you know, how many red flags?

615
00:52:45,001 --> 00:52:46,001
It's so bad.

616
00:52:46,001 --> 00:52:51,341
Yeah. And all the worst people are pro this thing.

617
00:52:51,341 --> 00:52:58,981
And you know, who runs Bitcoin? Obviously, if Bitcoin is run by ivory tower developers

618
00:52:58,981 --> 00:53:04,601
and miners, then Bitcoin is already walking dead thing.

619
00:53:04,601 --> 00:53:08,301
Node runners have to count here.

620
00:53:08,301 --> 00:53:09,301
That's for sure.

621
00:53:09,301 --> 00:53:17,401
I've seen bad faith arguments from the anti-Bip 110 side that alone makes me sympathetic to

622
00:53:17,401 --> 00:53:19,601
the Bip 110 side.

623
00:53:19,601 --> 00:53:28,401
For example, this like funding around loss of funds, which is a non-factor as far as

624
00:53:28,401 --> 00:53:31,421
I now know for basically everyone.

625
00:53:31,421 --> 00:53:39,121
If you're not like some mad professor that made an insane multi-sig, custom multi-sig

626
00:53:39,121 --> 00:53:41,661
setup with time locks and God knows what else.

627
00:53:42,301 --> 00:53:45,441
So basically only if you're Luke Dasher, you're at risk.

628
00:53:45,701 --> 00:53:50,561
Maybe Luke Dasher is taking an even bigger one for the team by risking his funds here.

629
00:53:51,681 --> 00:53:56,961
Technical hand waving, like just observing the walkification of core.

630
00:53:56,961 --> 00:54:01,001
and I'm saying it out loud, the Voke-ification of core.

631
00:54:01,001 --> 00:54:09,521
Like what the fuck is when woke politics and DEI enters the, the height, the pinnacle

632
00:54:09,521 --> 00:54:11,721
of Bitcoin development, what the fuck?

633
00:54:11,721 --> 00:54:12,721
Yeah.

634
00:54:12,721 --> 00:54:17,081
This is the pussies and dick's pussies and assholes argument all over again.

635
00:54:17,081 --> 00:54:20,901
And then the against BIP-110.

636
00:54:20,901 --> 00:54:26,941
I don't like this, this premise that this has to happen now or never and Bitcoin is

637
00:54:26,961 --> 00:54:35,301
The moment, for example, a CSAM picture lands on the blockchain, I don't think it's that clear cut at all.

638
00:54:35,661 --> 00:54:40,301
It's disgusting and fucked up, but it's not that clear cut.

639
00:54:41,221 --> 00:54:42,601
Yeah, I agree with that.

640
00:54:42,601 --> 00:54:54,641
Some justification for that position is that I do not believe judges to be rational people when it comes to technicalities in computer thingies.

641
00:54:54,641 --> 00:54:58,701
No, exactly. So they could already find some premise.

642
00:55:00,101 --> 00:55:04,581
They're not going to care if Bitcoin officially supports this or not.

643
00:55:04,681 --> 00:55:07,241
And like, I don't buy that specific argument.

644
00:55:07,921 --> 00:55:11,521
No, it's just a disgusting thing to support it and standardize it.

645
00:55:12,261 --> 00:55:16,401
Yeah, yeah. I don't think arbitrary data has a place in Bitcoin.

646
00:55:16,401 --> 00:55:21,741
I'm very, like, I don't know if I want op return to exist at all.

647
00:55:21,741 --> 00:55:27,801
Because I don't know why you would need to put other data into Bitcoin at all.

648
00:55:27,801 --> 00:55:33,041
Like, I think Pierre Ocard was pro that position too, like just remove the entire thing.

649
00:55:33,068 --> 00:55:39,468
just remove it yeah it was put there in the first place it's kind of like the the the big increase

650
00:55:39,468 --> 00:55:45,108
because it was like okay you want to do at least do it here it's always been at least do it here

651
00:55:45,108 --> 00:55:49,328
because it's less harmful yeah you want to scam a little bit okay you can scam a little bit here

652
00:55:49,328 --> 00:55:58,668
yeah but no no i mean yeah to continue then yeah sure also yeah so and i think the spam

653
00:55:58,668 --> 00:56:08,888
urgency is in the same boat. I did sync up a node, a bit 110 node like five days ago,

654
00:56:08,888 --> 00:56:15,648
and it took less than 30 hours on a five-year-old laptop. It had an SSD, that's crucial here,

655
00:56:15,768 --> 00:56:24,448
and it had 16 gigabytes of RAM. But as of now, the spam topic, it's not like in one or two or

656
00:56:24,448 --> 00:56:29,488
three years, spam has ruined Bitcoin, in my opinion. It hasn't ruined initial block download

657
00:56:29,488 --> 00:56:35,488
in three years or four years. Down the road, like in 20 years, maybe, I don't know.

658
00:56:36,608 --> 00:56:42,848
Okay. Yeah. If I may, I have a difference of opinion here because it's the foreverness of it.

659
00:56:43,488 --> 00:56:49,488
If we have to store it forever, then it's crucial that we fight it off as much as we can.

660
00:56:49,488 --> 00:57:02,908
Yeah, but if Bitcoin is going to live for 500 years, what difference is it like life or death if we stop it the year 14, 15, 16 or 17?

661
00:57:02,908 --> 00:57:10,348
i i think there is because i think there are second order effects that are very hard to see

662
00:57:10,348 --> 00:57:18,868
here if i i think there is an urgency in the sense that if we don't show uh at the early stages that

663
00:57:18,868 --> 00:57:23,888
no you cannot fucking take this over no we are we are going to be resilient we're going to be

664
00:57:23,888 --> 00:57:29,328
resistant then you're sending a signal that will lead to worse things it's a slippery slope argument

665
00:57:29,328 --> 00:57:38,668
And I think Bitcoin has shown that in the past and that it's not continuing to show that kind of resilience to me.

666
00:57:39,308 --> 00:57:42,188
Yeah, makes sense somewhat.

667
00:57:42,888 --> 00:57:53,008
I mean, I think the longer you tolerate something, the harder it is to turn it around also because every day of tolerance brings strength to the status quo, so to say.

668
00:57:53,008 --> 00:57:59,708
Yes, and it also brings more vested interests in these things, like Citria, for instance, that shouldn't exist.

669
00:58:00,408 --> 00:58:06,248
But still, I oppose the narrative that this is now or never.

670
00:58:06,448 --> 00:58:11,848
It could be, in hindsight, that this was the time because this has already gathered momentum.

671
00:58:12,768 --> 00:58:13,548
And that matters.

672
00:58:13,788 --> 00:58:20,208
How easy would it be to even come where we are now in opposition to the directional core?

673
00:58:20,588 --> 00:58:21,588
Probably really hard.

674
00:58:21,588 --> 00:58:27,228
Okay, I think this is where you and I differ a bit because I think that that initial momentum,

675
00:58:28,228 --> 00:58:30,888
this may be the only opportunity we get.

676
00:58:31,408 --> 00:58:34,488
But that's what I said, Knut, so then we don't differ. Then you misunderstood me.

677
00:58:34,748 --> 00:58:39,448
Okay, okay, sorry. But yeah, so what's the counter argument? Like I thought you were

678
00:58:39,448 --> 00:58:40,708
making a counter argument.

679
00:58:41,948 --> 00:58:46,328
This is against, this is like my argument for the BIP 110.

680
00:58:46,328 --> 00:58:58,448
No, it is actually against it because I am saying that, I'm just steelmanning my own argument or like devil's advocating it.

681
00:58:58,568 --> 00:59:08,708
Like maybe this is the chance, you know, but I'm still saying that the absolute conviction that it's now or never is not something we know.

682
00:59:08,708 --> 00:59:09,608
It could be.

683
00:59:10,388 --> 00:59:12,848
There's a Ben Affleck Batman quote here.

684
00:59:12,848 --> 00:59:20,908
So like if there's a slightest chance that Superman may destroy humanity, then we have

685
00:59:20,908 --> 00:59:22,848
to take it as an absolute certainty.

686
00:59:22,848 --> 00:59:27,488
Yeah, that would make sense if there was no chance of doing harm with the action you

687
00:59:27,488 --> 00:59:29,608
chose to pursue.

688
00:59:29,608 --> 00:59:31,608
Yeah, fair enough.

689
00:59:31,608 --> 00:59:34,388
But yeah, so that's that.

690
00:59:34,388 --> 00:59:44,768
And then the fact that there is a theoretical chance and probably a real reality that some

691
00:59:44,768 --> 00:59:50,228
coins would be unspendable under BIP110.

692
00:59:50,228 --> 00:59:55,868
Some UTXOs would just be locked.

693
00:59:55,868 --> 01:00:03,528
And that is an argument that has been fielded to me very passionately by people against

694
01:00:03,528 --> 01:00:11,368
BIP 110. And I can't just completely dismiss that argument because they made a setup that was valid

695
01:00:13,768 --> 01:00:19,848
within the Bitcoin rules when they did it. A change that would permanently make those funds

696
01:00:20,808 --> 01:00:26,968
lost is problematic. It's setting a very dangerous precedent. I can agree to that.

697
01:00:27,528 --> 01:00:32,808
However, I think that as I mentioned before, I think there's a fuck around and find out scale here.

698
01:00:32,808 --> 01:00:40,248
if you just use bitcoin as intended as money then your your coins are at no risk they're only at

699
01:00:40,248 --> 01:00:46,068
risk if you try to fiddle around with these bitvm's things or what maybe i'm pulling this out of my

700
01:00:46,068 --> 01:00:53,908
ass but if you're using advanced shit like the more the more uh fringe things you're doing with

701
01:00:53,908 --> 01:00:59,448
bitcoin the more your coins are at risk that was always true to me that was always true but like

702
01:00:59,448 --> 01:01:03,248
my argument would be that you cannot own a Bitcoin.

703
01:01:03,428 --> 01:01:04,788
Like if you go deep into this,

704
01:01:05,328 --> 01:01:08,848
the only reason that I can act as if I owned my Bitcoin

705
01:01:08,848 --> 01:01:11,568
is that A, I find it improbable

706
01:01:11,568 --> 01:01:14,168
that someone else has access to the same private key

707
01:01:14,168 --> 01:01:18,168
and B, that I find it improbable

708
01:01:18,168 --> 01:01:23,488
that the protocol rules will change to such an extent

709
01:01:23,488 --> 01:01:30,468
that my coins will be at risk of not being accessible to me anymore.

710
01:01:30,908 --> 01:01:35,508
And if those two are true, which I think they are,

711
01:01:35,668 --> 01:01:41,248
then the more complicated shit you were trying to do with it,

712
01:01:41,348 --> 01:01:43,128
the more at risk your coins were.

713
01:01:43,228 --> 01:01:44,588
That was always true to me.

714
01:01:44,588 --> 01:01:50,168
Yeah, but as a fund owner, as a Bitcoin hodler,

715
01:01:50,168 --> 01:01:56,568
you are not necessarily the one who has engineered this way of storing your bitcoins

716
01:01:56,568 --> 01:02:04,668
that can have been done by some expert that that that presented a whole other narrative to you as

717
01:02:04,668 --> 01:02:09,408
the owner of the bitcoin that this is possible this is the rules of bitcoin this is a really

718
01:02:09,408 --> 01:02:14,648
good way to store your bitcoin i'm just but the responsibility is still yours that's the beauty

719
01:02:14,648 --> 01:02:19,828
of the system that you are responsible and like if you have the i'm with stupid t-shirt on instead

720
01:02:19,828 --> 01:02:26,068
of the I'm responsible t-shirt on, you are around and you will eventually find out. That's my

721
01:02:26,068 --> 01:02:32,448
argument. Anyway, I think it's fair. And I'm just like trying to give the points that, you know,

722
01:02:32,468 --> 01:02:39,288
has given me pause. Because if a person came to me saying that this is my setup, and as you see,

723
01:02:39,288 --> 01:02:46,328
they are stored with a time lock and 600 key multisig, and I'm losing everything if this

724
01:02:46,328 --> 01:02:51,708
activates. I mean, it's hard for me to just say, well, you stupid fuck, you shouldn't have done

725
01:02:51,708 --> 01:02:58,868
that. Because I do understand some of the argument on the other side too, that's all.

726
01:02:59,688 --> 01:03:09,408
So there's that. Well, I would say that if just to do a final rebuttal here is that if BIP110

727
01:03:09,408 --> 01:03:15,528
does that, it will not go through because it's too stupid. Then people will resist it.

728
01:03:15,528 --> 01:03:24,108
Bitcoin already has an internal mechanism to prevent that from happening because it won't get the support it needs if that was the case.

729
01:03:24,788 --> 01:03:27,608
Like, I think there's a circular argument there somewhere.

730
01:03:28,128 --> 01:03:31,868
And I'm basing that on that I don't really own my Bitcoin.

731
01:03:32,068 --> 01:03:33,368
I act as if I do.

732
01:03:33,788 --> 01:03:44,688
But can we agree that that would be the first time in Bitcoin history that some person lost Bitcoin after having stored them within consensus rules at the time?

733
01:03:44,688 --> 01:03:52,768
I don't think that's actually correct, because I think the inflation bug can be framed as that.

734
01:03:54,648 --> 01:03:57,988
Or something back in the past where the rules were changed.

735
01:04:01,048 --> 01:04:07,008
Here also, I should do my homework more, but I think that some of the Satoshi Dice stuff,

736
01:04:07,008 --> 01:04:18,888
That prevented maybe not a certain way of storing Bitcoin, but it definitely prevented a quote-unquote use case.

737
01:04:19,148 --> 01:04:27,128
So you can fuck up someone's business model that works on Bitcoin right now because of what the consensus rules are by tightening the rules.

738
01:04:27,128 --> 01:04:45,508
My point is that that was always the case, and it doesn't really matter if that involves freezing sub-thousand-set UTXOs or not, or fucking up some NFT salesman's business model.

739
01:04:45,928 --> 01:04:51,708
The point of this whole fork is to make it costlier to abuse the network.

740
01:04:53,548 --> 01:04:54,628
Which I agree with.

741
01:04:54,628 --> 01:04:59,128
So, so there's like, if you want to make an omelet, you have to break some eggs kind of argument.

742
01:04:59,128 --> 01:05:00,128
Yeah.

743
01:05:00,128 --> 01:05:05,728
And you have to keep in mind that I just ran through a whole list of probe BIP 110 angles

744
01:05:05,728 --> 01:05:06,728
as well.

745
01:05:06,728 --> 01:05:12,308
So this is, you know, to try to explain what is still giving me some pause to go and wanting

746
01:05:12,308 --> 01:05:16,248
to pick up my sword and shield and die on the hill.

747
01:05:16,248 --> 01:05:17,248
Okay.

748
01:05:17,248 --> 01:05:18,248
Yeah.

749
01:05:18,248 --> 01:05:26,068
And the last thing I think, which is something I basically need to understand better is the

750
01:05:26,068 --> 01:05:29,628
whole governance aspect of it.

751
01:05:29,628 --> 01:05:32,508
And that includes code quality.

752
01:05:32,508 --> 01:05:37,368
There was a bug recently, which is, I mean, Core V30 had a bug, right?

753
01:05:37,368 --> 01:05:38,688
So it's not like that.

754
01:05:38,688 --> 01:05:40,308
Quite a serious one.

755
01:05:40,308 --> 01:05:41,308
Yeah.

756
01:05:41,308 --> 01:05:46,308
Which is both, you know, argument for and against because it shows that you can still

757
01:05:46,308 --> 01:05:55,208
have a bug in very broadly reviewed code. And you can have a bug in code that is not reviewed that

758
01:05:55,208 --> 01:06:01,948
much. So it's like the code quality aspect and the whole aspect of what happens after the year

759
01:06:01,948 --> 01:06:08,128
is over, because this change is temporary, right? For a year. Yeah. And that year is not set in

760
01:06:08,128 --> 01:06:14,068
stone either. It can be revoked at any point. Like that's the fail-safe by the network, I guess,

761
01:06:14,068 --> 01:06:20,108
by the consensus. Like, again, I should have done my homework better, but it's not like a forever

762
01:06:20,108 --> 01:06:29,508
thing. No, it's just that if we open the door to like just a myriad of just one consensus fight

763
01:06:29,508 --> 01:06:36,448
after the other, and all of them will obviously be controversial and have infighting. And it's like,

764
01:06:36,448 --> 01:06:43,488
I would probably, I mean, I'm opening, I'm very open to just me not having understood the wisdom

765
01:06:43,488 --> 01:06:50,208
of this temporary thing, which I hope to learn more about. But yeah, it just doesn't vibe with

766
01:06:50,208 --> 01:06:57,268
my wish to kind of like, because this is a very exhausting and damaging fight for Bitcoin. So if

767
01:06:57,268 --> 01:07:02,008
we're just like kicking the can one year and we will have the same fight in one year, I think

768
01:07:02,008 --> 01:07:07,088
that's not good. But I don't think that's the point of the various ability. Like the whole point

769
01:07:07,088 --> 01:07:12,108
of the fork is like, it's like hitting the developers on the nose and telling them that,

770
01:07:12,108 --> 01:07:18,788
guys you are not in charge we are like do as we say or we will have to do things like this

771
01:07:19,448 --> 01:07:26,848
which is like super cool but what still what will we do after the year who who how will we form

772
01:07:26,848 --> 01:07:32,828
the consensus going forward from there and who will like who will be the the leaders

773
01:07:32,828 --> 01:07:40,708
and the the people writing this code basically will it be luke and mechanic and dayton oh well i i

774
01:07:40,708 --> 01:07:45,568
don't think that's how it works. I don't think you're a Bitcoin core developer if you're not

775
01:07:45,568 --> 01:07:53,988
aware of how the system may change in ways that you don't approve of. That was always true. I don't

776
01:07:53,988 --> 01:08:00,068
think core maintainers are going to quit Bitcoin because there's a soft fork that they don't

777
01:08:00,068 --> 01:08:05,988
particularly like that is being implemented. I don't think that's the reason why you...

778
01:08:05,988 --> 01:08:10,268
And I think Jimmy Song made this point on Tone's show as well,

779
01:08:10,468 --> 01:08:14,508
quite eloquently, like that's not how developers work.

780
01:08:14,508 --> 01:08:17,228
You don't devote your life to a project like this

781
01:08:17,228 --> 01:08:22,688
if you don't agree to the nature of the project.

782
01:08:23,028 --> 01:08:25,708
And the nature of the project is that this was always the case.

783
01:08:25,808 --> 01:08:28,208
The users could always go against the developers.

784
01:08:28,508 --> 01:08:29,688
That's not new.

785
01:08:30,168 --> 01:08:31,668
They were aware of that all the time.

786
01:08:31,788 --> 01:08:34,388
And if they weren't aware of that,

787
01:08:34,388 --> 01:08:36,128
Should they really have been there in the first place?

788
01:08:37,208 --> 01:08:40,448
Gloria Schauss certainly didn't seem to be aware of it.

789
01:08:41,028 --> 01:08:42,888
No, but she shouldn't have been there in the first place.

790
01:08:42,948 --> 01:08:43,528
I don't think so.

791
01:08:43,528 --> 01:08:46,548
Which has nothing to do with her gender or skin color.

792
01:08:46,728 --> 01:08:52,928
It has to do with her having these fucking anti-pleb opinions.

793
01:08:53,148 --> 01:09:00,148
Even implying that gender or skin color or anything is a factor, is bad faith.

794
01:09:00,148 --> 01:09:09,188
yes and and all of those dey narratives are a side effect of the state owning money production

795
01:09:09,188 --> 01:09:14,848
that might be hard for people to see but politicians have too much power because of

796
01:09:14,848 --> 01:09:31,435
money printing and therefore we get crazy fucking clown world things like dey yeah uh and if we if we didn have that we have a functioning meritocracy when no one gave a fuck about your sexual preference or if you were a devout Catholic or if you were whatever

797
01:09:32,195 --> 01:09:35,375
And it was completely based on merit.

798
01:09:35,535 --> 01:09:43,735
And that's what every single Bitcoiner I know wants Bitcoin to be a meritocracy and nothing else.

799
01:09:44,155 --> 01:09:44,435
Exactly.

800
01:09:45,715 --> 01:09:46,195
Yeah.

801
01:09:47,475 --> 01:09:48,155
I agree.

802
01:09:48,155 --> 01:09:54,075
And I think maybe I shall repeat because I'm not sure if I've said it out loud in this talk.

803
01:09:54,075 --> 01:10:03,435
I've said it to exhaustion on X that in my opinion, CORE carries the whole responsibility

804
01:10:03,435 --> 01:10:11,515
for the situation we are in right now. They caused this response by extremely arrogant,

805
01:10:11,515 --> 01:10:19,675
irresponsible and reckless behavior in uncapping up return in the face of huge controversy.

806
01:10:19,675 --> 01:10:22,875
Yeah. 100%.

807
01:10:22,875 --> 01:10:29,915
Yeah. And that's like another thing when I see them rejecting that, like they can't even

808
01:10:29,915 --> 01:10:39,275
accept that fact, then what the fuck? This is why I want a response to this.

809
01:10:40,075 --> 01:10:46,875
I want to support something that confronts it. And yeah, as we've been through, it's just that,

810
01:10:47,435 --> 01:10:49,915
you know, I feel like I was premature.

811
01:10:49,915 --> 01:10:59,275
So, what's the best counter argument to Bit110? What's your strongest reason for pulling out

812
01:10:59,275 --> 01:11:06,315
your support? Like, what is the crux of it? Is it just, hang on a minute, I'll need to do my homework?

813
01:11:06,315 --> 01:11:12,815
like or yeah i think i think it's the sum of doubts that that you know some of them were already

814
01:11:12,815 --> 01:11:20,235
there already there all the way as i as i posted about while supporting it like i am not sure if

815
01:11:20,235 --> 01:11:27,555
bit 110 is the best solution but i still supported it because i saw i was so sure that

816
01:11:27,555 --> 01:11:36,815
core direction needs to be opposed. And then, you know, after talking to, and once again,

817
01:11:36,915 --> 01:11:43,415
Giacomo did not reach out to talk to me. I reached out to talk to him. He did not try to convince me.

818
01:11:43,415 --> 01:11:49,995
It's just that I respect his opinion a lot and it gave me more doubt after talking to him.

819
01:11:50,655 --> 01:11:57,535
I'm honest about that. Of course, you shouldn't trust anyone blindly, but reality is that

820
01:11:57,555 --> 01:12:06,115
me and you and a lot of other people also use the social compass in navigating and and we we do

821
01:12:06,115 --> 01:12:12,675
outsource some or like at least listen to the people who have proven themselves worthy to listen

822
01:12:12,675 --> 01:12:20,915
to and suddenly i found found myself it's it's not like i mean jacomo he shares all of my

823
01:12:20,915 --> 01:12:29,915
anger at core basically. But he does not think BIP-110 is a responsible solution.

824
01:12:31,515 --> 01:12:38,155
So how much of that do you think is just like, Giacomo might be a bad example here. So let's not

825
01:12:38,155 --> 01:12:44,595
make this personal, but for influencers in general, or people who make a living out of

826
01:12:44,595 --> 01:12:52,515
being a voice in the Bitcoin space. I would say that there is an incentive to stay on the sidelines

827
01:12:52,515 --> 01:12:58,795
and not invest too much in a fight that you're not sure if you're going to win because you don't

828
01:12:58,795 --> 01:13:03,915
know what the result will be on the other side of that fight. So I think there's a reputational

829
01:13:03,915 --> 01:13:10,435
damage to be had. And I think there's influences like people who speak at conferences, people like

830
01:13:10,435 --> 01:13:19,215
me like uh and and uh to me that was sort of more of a reason to actually signal that i am willing

831
01:13:19,215 --> 01:13:25,355
to die on this hill because i i i the only thing that got me here in the first place was this

832
01:13:25,355 --> 01:13:31,895
principled approach to stuff and like as soon as i start compromising that i i become no better than

833
01:13:31,895 --> 01:13:38,515
anyone else no no not saying that i am better than anyone else but i'm just saying that yeah i i have

834
01:13:38,515 --> 01:13:46,255
my doubts about the actual fork as well, but I feel so strongly about fighting for Bitcoin's

835
01:13:46,255 --> 01:13:52,075
core principles. And to me, there's this Venn diagram of knowledge about computer networks

836
01:13:52,075 --> 01:13:57,875
and economic literacy. And ideally, you want the Bitcoiners to be in the middle of that Venn diagram.

837
01:13:58,995 --> 01:14:06,915
And I feel that Core has lost the part of the economic literacy way too much. I think maybe

838
01:14:06,915 --> 01:14:12,095
some of the people trying to keep the monetary thing, they don't have the technical understanding

839
01:14:12,095 --> 01:14:20,135
required. I might be in that camp, sure. But at least I'm trying to push the economic literacy

840
01:14:20,135 --> 01:14:26,455
bubble to be bigger and more important for the discussion. Make of that what you will.

841
01:14:26,455 --> 01:14:37,415
Yeah. One thing I've observed also, which I think is, I mean, I think you're very correct

842
01:14:37,415 --> 01:14:45,115
that a lot of people are scared to pick a side here. And I don't think they become less

843
01:14:45,115 --> 01:14:52,515
scared when they see the level of the level of backlash that comes whenever you choose

844
01:14:52,515 --> 01:15:01,475
aside. And I've managed the amazing feat of being hated by both sides in some ways right now,

845
01:15:01,475 --> 01:15:07,075
which is kind of funny, but I can assure it, it wasn't out of anything but, you know,

846
01:15:07,875 --> 01:15:14,515
of a Bitcoin and trying to do the right thing. I've seen one thing, I think at least I've seen it,

847
01:15:14,515 --> 01:15:19,795
I'm not going to be bombastic about it, but it really seems like that, that there is a cohort

848
01:15:19,795 --> 01:15:28,355
of people who resist and try to shut down this BIP110 thing because it's making noise, it's making

849
01:15:28,355 --> 01:15:36,195
drama, it's hurting the price. And that to me is like, that's not a good reason to be against BIP110.

850
01:15:36,195 --> 01:15:42,115
If you think if the only reason you're against it is because it can hurt, like drama can hurt the

851
01:15:42,115 --> 01:15:50,515
price short term no and and that's like this has been one of my key points uh since the whole core

852
01:15:50,515 --> 01:15:56,435
versus not debate started and that is that everyone should be happy that this conflict is happening

853
01:15:56,435 --> 01:16:01,955
because because it means that bitcoiners care yeah if we were just going along with anything

854
01:16:01,955 --> 01:16:07,955
like bad bad bad then that that would be much more dangerous it is going to be chaotic it's going to

855
01:16:07,955 --> 01:16:13,015
be super fucking scary and Bitcoin is going to be at the brink of death from certain point

856
01:16:13,015 --> 01:16:14,415
of views.

857
01:16:14,415 --> 01:16:15,635
That's part of the system.

858
01:16:15,635 --> 01:16:17,275
That's what we signed up for.

859
01:16:17,275 --> 01:16:18,655
It's why it's different.

860
01:16:18,655 --> 01:16:21,595
It's why it's special to me.

861
01:16:21,595 --> 01:16:23,855
Because there is no guiding light.

862
01:16:23,855 --> 01:16:28,175
There is no leader that can tell you what the correct position to have here is.

863
01:16:28,175 --> 01:16:35,815
Which is why I'm so frustrated when I see tribalism form and this whole, if you're not

864
01:16:35,815 --> 01:16:39,095
with us, you're against us attitude, because I don't think that helps either.

865
01:16:40,515 --> 01:16:47,855
And of course, this might be self-contradictory then with talking about the pros of being

866
01:16:47,855 --> 01:16:51,235
on the sidelines and not taking a side and that's cowardice.

867
01:16:51,895 --> 01:16:54,955
But as with all things, there's a balance to be struck.

868
01:16:56,475 --> 01:16:56,695
Absolutely.

869
01:16:57,155 --> 01:17:00,355
Yeah, this is a difficult topic.

870
01:17:00,355 --> 01:17:12,435
I'm going to spend a lot of time talking and reading and, you know, trying to address my, like, what is giving me, what is, like, unclear to me.

871
01:17:12,615 --> 01:17:15,895
And, yeah, I'm not going to make any rash decision for sure.

872
01:17:16,155 --> 01:17:23,375
Again, and if I ever, you know, were to support BIP110 again, which, I mean, I'm going to be honest.

873
01:17:23,375 --> 01:17:29,375
Like, I think you need to, you need to be able to, to like change your mind in the face

874
01:17:29,375 --> 01:17:31,915
of new information and new understanding.

875
01:17:31,915 --> 01:17:41,795
And once again, this just like underlines the stupidity in me to be premature in supporting

876
01:17:41,795 --> 01:17:42,795
it.

877
01:17:42,795 --> 01:17:45,455
And I tried to explain it was because I was away for a long time.

878
01:17:45,455 --> 01:17:50,375
I came in under informed and emotional and I regret it.

879
01:17:50,375 --> 01:17:55,315
It would be so much better if I was still on the sidelines, you know, and just like kept learning.

880
01:17:55,495 --> 01:17:57,975
And then I could like take a position.

881
01:17:58,655 --> 01:18:01,955
But I'm not done with this discussion.

882
01:18:02,155 --> 01:18:03,855
That's like my...

883
01:18:03,855 --> 01:18:06,475
So we don't really know your position yet.

884
01:18:07,615 --> 01:18:10,095
Honestly, it shouldn't really matter, to be honest.

885
01:18:10,095 --> 01:18:11,795
You should make up your own mind.

886
01:18:11,915 --> 01:18:13,815
It's like the life of Brian's everyone.

887
01:18:14,095 --> 01:18:14,815
We're all different.

888
01:18:15,275 --> 01:18:15,415
Yeah.

889
01:18:15,415 --> 01:18:25,695
So it's not like I think that my opinion should matter a lot to anyone, but probably the reality

890
01:18:25,695 --> 01:18:33,855
is that some people value my opinion too, and they want my opinion. And that's why it was super

891
01:18:33,855 --> 01:18:39,855
important for me to be honest that shit, I think I was, I don't have this conviction right now.

892
01:18:39,855 --> 01:18:46,835
I have to like withdraw my support right now, even if it was stupid as fuck and made me look like an idiot.

893
01:18:47,515 --> 01:18:49,955
So let's try a thing here.

894
01:18:50,015 --> 01:18:59,055
If I go to the website and just read off of it and see what our ideas are about these specific points, is that okay?

895
01:18:59,595 --> 01:19:07,315
Yeah, I think it has to be the last point on this call though, because I'm going to have a date with my girlfriend.

896
01:19:07,975 --> 01:19:08,315
Okay.

897
01:19:08,955 --> 01:19:11,135
Yeah, I wouldn't want to fuck that up.

898
01:19:11,655 --> 01:19:13,115
So how it works.

899
01:19:13,335 --> 01:19:18,095
Simple restrictions that preserve all monetary use cases while limiting data abuse.

900
01:19:18,095 --> 01:19:19,875
So output size limits.

901
01:19:20,055 --> 01:19:25,355
New outputs are limited to 34 bytes, except op return, which allows up to 83 bytes.

902
01:19:25,955 --> 01:19:31,275
The output size limits, that is to make it more expensive to put JPEGs and stuff on chain, I guess,

903
01:19:31,595 --> 01:19:36,895
because you have to split them up into smaller part, leading to bigger fees having to be paid

904
01:19:36,895 --> 01:19:41,435
because more V bytes per transaction of these things, right?

905
01:19:41,535 --> 01:19:42,675
Is that how you interpret it?

906
01:19:43,655 --> 01:19:46,935
Yeah, I mean, I also interpret it like, you know,

907
01:19:47,995 --> 01:19:53,175
putting the op return limitation into consensus

908
01:19:53,175 --> 01:19:57,635
and strangling it at 83 bytes instead of 100 kilobytes.

909
01:19:58,555 --> 01:20:01,875
Yeah, that's also, yeah.

910
01:20:01,875 --> 01:20:04,755
So I think in Nots, it's defaulted as,

911
01:20:04,755 --> 01:20:07,635
the default is like 42 bytes and not 83.

912
01:20:09,875 --> 01:20:13,935
But that's the mempool policy.

913
01:20:14,135 --> 01:20:17,935
I mean, you can just do that afterwards too, I guess.

914
01:20:18,455 --> 01:20:19,115
Whatever that.

915
01:20:19,915 --> 01:20:21,755
So data push limits,

916
01:20:22,095 --> 01:20:23,815
data pushes and witness elements

917
01:20:23,815 --> 01:20:26,755
are limited to 256 bytes maximum.

918
01:20:27,515 --> 01:20:30,395
Op push data payloads and witness stack elements

919
01:20:30,395 --> 01:20:32,735
exceeding 256 bytes are invalid.

920
01:20:32,735 --> 01:20:36,035
except BIP16 redeem script.

921
01:20:36,035 --> 01:20:42,555
So I guess this is another attempt at strangling whatever comes in there as spam.

922
01:20:42,995 --> 01:20:47,095
Yeah, I think, you know, I think already because I'll be perfectly honest

923
01:20:47,095 --> 01:20:54,855
and say that I don't know anything about OP push data payloads and witness stack elements.

924
01:20:55,135 --> 01:21:02,495
So that tells me that it would probably be smart to have like a layman's explanation

925
01:21:02,495 --> 01:21:04,875
on all of these points on this site?

926
01:21:05,915 --> 01:21:07,895
Yeah, I think so too, absolutely.

927
01:21:08,255 --> 01:21:12,915
But I'm just going to assume that all of these limits

928
01:21:12,915 --> 01:21:15,575
are to make spamming more expensive

929
01:21:15,575 --> 01:21:19,795
by limiting the amount of data per transaction.

930
01:21:21,255 --> 01:21:25,555
I think that's the retard understanding of it

931
01:21:25,555 --> 01:21:26,895
that actually works.

932
01:21:28,735 --> 01:21:31,595
Witness version restriction.

933
01:21:31,595 --> 01:21:34,035
restrictions, only well-defined

934
01:21:34,035 --> 01:21:36,175
witness versions, v0

935
01:21:36,175 --> 01:21:38,135
and taproot, can be spent

936
01:21:38,135 --> 01:21:39,215
during the deployment.

937
01:21:39,915 --> 01:21:41,975
Now, yeah, I'm

938
01:21:41,975 --> 01:21:44,155
confused. Do you understand any of this?

939
01:21:45,155 --> 01:21:46,035
Does this have

940
01:21:46,035 --> 01:21:47,495
anything to do with

941
01:21:47,495 --> 01:21:49,515
Segwit

942
01:21:49,515 --> 01:21:51,895
discount? I don't know.

943
01:21:52,895 --> 01:21:53,615
Probably not.

944
01:21:54,035 --> 01:21:56,115
So I think I have

945
01:21:56,115 --> 01:21:58,155
no idea. Yeah, this is

946
01:21:58,155 --> 01:21:59,915
Hodlunot and Knut Naked

947
01:21:59,915 --> 01:22:02,655
here admitting how much

948
01:22:02,655 --> 01:22:05,075
plebslop retard we actually are.

949
01:22:06,235 --> 01:22:07,795
I think so, yeah,

950
01:22:07,955 --> 01:22:09,735
here is where some of these

951
01:22:09,735 --> 01:22:11,535
wallet developers and stuff

952
01:22:11,535 --> 01:22:14,175
could be irritated at this

953
01:22:14,175 --> 01:22:15,775
because some of their functionalities

954
01:22:15,775 --> 01:22:17,535
would not work anymore, right?

955
01:22:18,175 --> 01:22:20,915
But that is motivated

956
01:22:20,915 --> 01:22:22,055
by the bigger incentive

957
01:22:22,055 --> 01:22:23,795
to just fuck with Citria

958
01:22:23,795 --> 01:22:24,715
and the likes of it.

959
01:22:26,055 --> 01:22:28,035
Yeah, but I think the broad

960
01:22:28,035 --> 01:22:39,195
The broad understanding I have is that, you know, none of these restrictions fuck with any like popular normal use case wallets at all.

961
01:22:40,035 --> 01:22:42,235
And that's very important to keep in mind.

962
01:22:43,015 --> 01:22:52,555
But it does fuck with the ability of mental gymnastic grifters to buy different methods, use Bitcoin for non-monetary transactions.

963
01:22:52,555 --> 01:23:07,335
Yeah, if I'm going to devil's advocate against this, that would be that it might disincentivize developers from working on new interesting features that could actually have monetary use case. But I don't think that's a very strong argument.

964
01:23:07,335 --> 01:23:29,262
Anyway taproot restrictions Taproot annexes large control blocks and certain opcodes are temporarily restricted Yeah I don think anyone uses taproot for whatever it was for its intended uses anyway or very limited usage of that So it being used way more for crap So I

965
01:23:29,262 --> 01:23:31,542
don't think that's a big concern.

966
01:23:31,542 --> 01:23:39,202
Would it be fair to say that the main result or the main innovation downstream of Taproot

967
01:23:39,202 --> 01:23:43,502
being merged was ordinals?

968
01:23:44,602 --> 01:23:50,102
Is this conspiracy theory territory where we think that it was actually pushed through

969
01:23:50,102 --> 01:23:51,882
because of that?

970
01:23:51,882 --> 01:23:58,242
It was actually not intended as that by me, but I certainly see that it could be interpreted

971
01:23:58,242 --> 01:23:59,242
like that.

972
01:23:59,242 --> 01:24:04,942
Yeah, and some malicious forces may have pushed it through because they wanted to do

973
01:24:04,942 --> 01:24:07,742
this shit.

974
01:24:07,742 --> 01:24:24,842
At least we have to agree that probably we should take lessons should be learned after the whole Taproot implementation, how casually and like non-investigatively that was done and like how that broad consensus formed.

975
01:24:25,002 --> 01:24:29,362
Was it just because all the people we got used to trusting were for it?

976
01:24:29,362 --> 01:24:37,142
I think that plus a fatigue from the block size war so so people were not willing to do the work

977
01:24:37,142 --> 01:24:42,082
and and actually reading up on what this thing actually did and as far as I remember it was also

978
01:24:42,082 --> 01:24:52,422
sold uh almost like like an extension of Segwit and Segwit was like you know it became seen as uh

979
01:24:52,422 --> 01:25:00,862
I mean, basically the fruits of winning the block size war in some way because Gihan resisted it so hard and stuff.

980
01:25:01,222 --> 01:25:06,982
And Taproot was like always like the last piece we needed to make it so much more powerful.

981
01:25:07,762 --> 01:25:08,322
Yeah.

982
01:25:08,542 --> 01:25:10,602
At least that's how I interpreted it.

983
01:25:11,162 --> 01:25:17,762
Yeah, that's how I remember it being marketed as well, whilst that might not have been entirely true then.

984
01:25:18,462 --> 01:25:18,822
Maybe.

985
01:25:18,822 --> 01:25:27,382
I mean, at least it seems to me like Taproot was a huge positive for people who want the

986
01:25:27,382 --> 01:25:28,382
JPEGs on Bitcoin.

987
01:25:28,382 --> 01:25:36,582
Yeah, unfortunately, like I sometimes wonder where Bitcoin would have been today if Lightning

988
01:25:36,582 --> 01:25:38,042
Network was not a thing.

989
01:25:38,042 --> 01:25:43,522
So yeah, sure, SegWit was important for other things than just Lightning, especially the

990
01:25:43,522 --> 01:25:47,142
malleability thing, transaction malleability bug.

991
01:25:47,142 --> 01:25:50,682
So what would have happened if we didn't have a Lightning Network,

992
01:25:50,862 --> 01:25:55,622
but if Bitcoin had just ossified and continued on,

993
01:25:55,722 --> 01:25:57,142
would we have had the spam?

994
01:25:57,682 --> 01:26:00,462
Would we have had similar attacks?

995
01:26:00,622 --> 01:26:04,742
We can never know because we live in the branch of the multiverse

996
01:26:04,742 --> 01:26:10,382
that we happen to live in, and that's just true for everyone alive.

997
01:26:10,382 --> 01:26:12,862
We cannot ever know what the...

998
01:26:12,862 --> 01:26:14,282
It's Bastia's broken window.

999
01:26:14,282 --> 01:26:16,422
or Bastia

1000
01:26:16,422 --> 01:26:18,962
the seen and the unseen

1001
01:26:18,962 --> 01:26:21,462
we cannot know what the other timeline

1002
01:26:21,462 --> 01:26:23,602
would have looked like because we're not in that timeline

1003
01:26:23,602 --> 01:26:25,082
we're in the one we're in

1004
01:26:25,082 --> 01:26:25,422
yeah

1005
01:26:25,422 --> 01:26:29,422
no it's this sliding doors or closing

1006
01:26:29,422 --> 01:26:30,922
doors thought like

1007
01:26:30,922 --> 01:26:33,342
what would happen if you managed to get

1008
01:26:33,342 --> 01:26:35,182
on that subway instead of the doors

1009
01:26:35,182 --> 01:26:36,422
closing in front of you and

1010
01:26:36,422 --> 01:26:39,342
what would have happened if the Germans won

1011
01:26:39,342 --> 01:26:40,762
World War 2 and all that shit

1012
01:26:40,762 --> 01:26:41,822
we will never know

1013
01:26:41,822 --> 01:26:45,722
Yeah, and if Jamie Oliver actually learned how to cook at some point.

1014
01:26:46,682 --> 01:26:47,342
We can never know.

1015
01:26:47,682 --> 01:26:51,142
Let's not get into the wildest mental gymnastics.

1016
01:26:52,922 --> 01:26:53,482
Yeah.

1017
01:26:53,982 --> 01:26:59,702
Anyway, so the common questions here, maybe we should round this out by commenting on this stuff too.

1018
01:26:59,902 --> 01:27:01,542
So why is this proposal temporary?

1019
01:27:01,762 --> 01:27:05,062
The one-year deployment allows the community to evaluate the impact.

1020
01:27:06,102 --> 01:27:07,962
That's very fair, I think.

1021
01:27:07,962 --> 01:27:14,782
that's what allows you to have a bit of time before you make your stance on this.

1022
01:27:15,022 --> 01:27:19,742
Like they're giving Hodlunot time to do his homework here.

1023
01:27:21,702 --> 01:27:22,982
And me, by the way.

1024
01:27:23,402 --> 01:27:26,802
So while developers work on a longer term solution,

1025
01:27:27,362 --> 01:27:32,822
so it sort of implies that something else will have to follow a longer term solution.

1026
01:27:33,002 --> 01:27:36,222
And I think that's referring to like actually fixing the bugs.

1027
01:27:36,222 --> 01:27:40,322
what Luke and Mechanic calls bugs anyway, or what Luke calls bugs.

1028
01:27:40,942 --> 01:27:43,982
I think they are bugs or exploits.

1029
01:27:44,082 --> 01:27:45,522
Exploits, I think, is a better word.

1030
01:27:46,282 --> 01:27:49,402
Ordinals and inscriptions and all of these are exploits.

1031
01:27:50,302 --> 01:27:53,162
Can I just devils advocate that?

1032
01:27:53,702 --> 01:27:54,062
All right.

1033
01:27:55,522 --> 01:28:00,022
It's like it's worded as of like just a positive.

1034
01:28:00,022 --> 01:28:02,182
It allows the community and, you know,

1035
01:28:02,182 --> 01:28:06,642
as the community is, as we are seeing right now, extremely polarized.

1036
01:28:07,382 --> 01:28:07,602
Yeah.

1037
01:28:07,802 --> 01:28:10,162
It allows the community to evaluate the impact.

1038
01:28:10,482 --> 01:28:11,042
No, no, no, no, no.

1039
01:28:11,162 --> 01:28:16,702
So that to me sounds like we're going to have like an ongoing,

1040
01:28:17,262 --> 01:28:24,562
very hostile debate going on what is this actually doing, you know?

1041
01:28:25,182 --> 01:28:27,302
And we'll have one side who says, look here,

1042
01:28:27,742 --> 01:28:30,442
it destroyed Bitcoin as we know it.

1043
01:28:30,442 --> 01:28:34,722
And the other side will, no, fuck you, it saved Bitcoin.

1044
01:28:34,722 --> 01:28:41,302
And this is like the thing that I haven't fleshed out in my mind enough,

1045
01:28:41,422 --> 01:28:46,702
just like how will this year and what happens after,

1046
01:28:46,822 --> 01:28:48,262
how will it look in practice?

1047
01:28:48,642 --> 01:28:57,142
Is it any chance of Bitcoin emerging from this as one solid thing

1048
01:28:57,142 --> 01:28:59,862
that still retains the trust of the world?

1049
01:28:59,862 --> 01:29:00,582
I don't know.

1050
01:29:02,502 --> 01:29:04,922
Well, I'm optimistic about that.

1051
01:29:05,462 --> 01:29:05,602
Yeah.

1052
01:29:05,922 --> 01:29:10,062
I think it wouldn't be the case if Bitcoin hadn't had this fight.

1053
01:29:11,022 --> 01:29:17,222
Either everyone agrees to this and then the consensus rules are temporarily tightened,

1054
01:29:17,802 --> 01:29:21,902
or we have a hard fork, or it's dead in the water.

1055
01:29:22,082 --> 01:29:22,542
Who knows?

1056
01:29:23,642 --> 01:29:24,682
Well, I guess we'll see.

1057
01:29:24,682 --> 01:29:28,682
there's some sort of Pascal's wager to it too

1058
01:29:28,682 --> 01:29:31,182
because like the more you believe it will happen

1059
01:29:31,182 --> 01:29:33,262
the higher the likelihood that it actually will

1060
01:29:33,262 --> 01:29:34,662
yeah

1061
01:29:34,662 --> 01:29:38,402
so that's to take into account too

1062
01:29:38,402 --> 01:29:41,082
like yeah the other sentence here is

1063
01:29:41,082 --> 01:29:44,082
I can agree that this language here

1064
01:29:44,082 --> 01:29:47,002
is kind of it's presenting this fork

1065
01:29:47,002 --> 01:29:50,262
as something that allows the community

1066
01:29:50,262 --> 01:29:51,282
to evaluate the impact

1067
01:29:51,282 --> 01:30:01,122
like it's it's very self-promoting in in the language chosen here yeah i could rewrite it

1068
01:30:01,762 --> 01:30:08,562
and probably probably be similarly close to the truth like something like allows the community to

1069
01:30:09,522 --> 01:30:17,442
infight and put each others on the stake and kill each other for a year developers work on

1070
01:30:17,442 --> 01:30:18,622
on a longer term solution.

1071
01:30:20,022 --> 01:30:24,022
Yeah, some restrictions would severely constrain future upgrades

1072
01:30:24,022 --> 01:30:27,182
if permanent, but are acceptable for a limited time

1073
01:30:27,182 --> 01:30:28,942
to address the immediate crisis.

1074
01:30:29,382 --> 01:30:33,802
Yeah, here I can actually be where one of my biggest concerns

1075
01:30:33,802 --> 01:30:38,482
with BIP-110 is the same as like passports

1076
01:30:38,482 --> 01:30:42,282
were a temporary measure at one point in time.

1077
01:30:42,282 --> 01:30:44,602
And now they're standard all over the world.

1078
01:30:44,602 --> 01:30:52,342
so you need a paper to be allowed to go abroad that was not always the case and this is this is

1079
01:30:52,342 --> 01:30:58,302
my biggest concern i think that sometimes temporary things are not as temporary as we think

1080
01:30:58,302 --> 01:31:07,482
it's like when you fix something with a gaff tape and yeah instead of properly fixing it

1081
01:31:07,482 --> 01:31:11,782
you tend to not give a fuck about it afterwards and the temporary solution becomes the permanent

1082
01:31:11,782 --> 01:31:18,902
solution. Yeah. I'll add something that would be pro-Bip or like that would make me less

1083
01:31:19,622 --> 01:31:26,342
concerned about that. And that's that severely constraining future upgrades. Like that just

1084
01:31:26,342 --> 01:31:31,142
sounds good to me. I don't want to upgrade all that. Like what is Bitcoin? Is it something that

1085
01:31:31,142 --> 01:31:39,142
we shall always like upgrade? I understand maintain and fix bugs and shit, but I don't want Bitcoin

1086
01:31:39,142 --> 01:31:45,982
going to be this innovation place no there is a point where enough is enough right that we don't

1087
01:31:45,982 --> 01:31:52,322
need to uh maintaining is one thing and and fighting off future threats uh that's one thing

1088
01:31:52,322 --> 01:31:59,062
uh but that's not upgrading necessarily so if upgrading is you know quantum resistance if that

1089
01:31:59,062 --> 01:32:06,162
is even needed i i don't know if that just fud as well but uh that would be valid uh it's both

1090
01:32:06,162 --> 01:32:12,042
fud and not fud at the same time ronner schrodinger's fud yes limiting taproot control blocks

1091
01:32:12,042 --> 01:32:17,602
could complicate advanced smart contracts like bitvm i don't think this is a trade-off at all

1092
01:32:17,602 --> 01:32:22,342
i think that's a feature not a bug like i don't want programmable money because to me programmable

1093
01:32:22,342 --> 01:32:27,982
money means programmable people i don't want i don't want fucking scripts like that i know that

1094
01:32:27,982 --> 01:32:34,762
satoshi was for uh having the script thing in there so so that in the future bitcoin could

1095
01:32:34,762 --> 01:32:36,762
accommodate smart contracts and stuff.

1096
01:32:37,082 --> 01:32:38,902
But I don't necessarily like that.

1097
01:32:39,422 --> 01:32:41,622
I want Bitcoin to be as simple as possible.

1098
01:32:41,842 --> 01:32:42,262
Yeah, I agree.

1099
01:32:44,962 --> 01:32:48,482
Upgrade hooks are temporarily unavailable for other soft forks.

1100
01:32:48,722 --> 01:32:52,702
Some wallet software using op-if and tap leaves may need updates.

1101
01:32:53,082 --> 01:32:56,482
However, these are acceptable short-term trade-offs for immediate benefits.

1102
01:32:56,862 --> 01:32:59,562
Yeah, might piss off some developers on some projects

1103
01:32:59,562 --> 01:33:02,462
and might even fuck with their business models somehow.

1104
01:33:02,462 --> 01:33:06,402
Yeah, however, I think this is definitely in the fuck around and find out category.

1105
01:33:08,142 --> 01:33:11,362
Is there any risk of funds being frozen or lost?

1106
01:33:11,602 --> 01:33:17,402
In theory, yes, but this proposal goes to great pains to avoid affecting those use cases.

1107
01:33:17,942 --> 01:33:22,862
Funds are completely unaffected if they don't use taproot, use taproot in standard ways,

1108
01:33:22,962 --> 01:33:27,522
or can be spent by a key path or other expected tap leaves.

1109
01:33:27,522 --> 01:33:35,982
Additionally, UTXO created before activations are permanently exempt from the new rules.

1110
01:33:36,422 --> 01:33:37,462
Oh, that's interesting.

1111
01:33:38,082 --> 01:33:38,202
Yeah.

1112
01:33:38,222 --> 01:33:44,922
So it doesn't freeze anything except if you create that thing now before the whole thing.

1113
01:33:45,462 --> 01:33:45,742
Yeah.

1114
01:33:46,042 --> 01:33:56,402
I would be interested to find out if there are no exceptions to that statement that basically funds, UTXOs, cannot be frozen.

1115
01:33:56,402 --> 01:34:00,242
because I've heard different stories spelled out

1116
01:34:00,242 --> 01:34:02,762
and yeah, that should be clarified.

1117
01:34:03,562 --> 01:34:06,462
It says UTXOs created before activation

1118
01:34:06,462 --> 01:34:10,062
are permanently exempt from the new rules.

1119
01:34:10,522 --> 01:34:14,842
To me, I interpret that as you being able to move those coins

1120
01:34:14,842 --> 01:34:16,182
after the rules are implemented.

1121
01:34:18,122 --> 01:34:21,182
Yeah, a separate two-week grace period

1122
01:34:21,182 --> 01:34:23,222
between lock-in and activation

1123
01:34:23,222 --> 01:34:25,902
also provides great general preparation time.

1124
01:34:26,402 --> 01:34:27,082
Yeah.

1125
01:34:29,042 --> 01:34:32,002
Won't spammers just spread their data over multiple fields?

1126
01:34:32,382 --> 01:34:41,802
While it's impossible to fully prevent steganography, limiting data sizes ensures abuses and non-contiguous and obfuscated.

1127
01:34:41,942 --> 01:34:51,102
Requiring users to divide files into chunks of 256 bytes raises the costs in fees and effort, sending a clear message that data storage is unwelcome.

1128
01:34:51,102 --> 01:34:54,882
I think this is the biggest why I'm pro this thing.

1129
01:34:54,882 --> 01:34:57,982
because I do want to send that message

1130
01:34:57,982 --> 01:35:01,442
and I do want it to become more expensive for them to do that.

1131
01:35:04,562 --> 01:35:09,082
I mean, even if my house, you know,

1132
01:35:09,282 --> 01:35:14,022
theoretically can be broken into by very sophisticated thieves

1133
01:35:14,022 --> 01:35:19,402
using advanced tooling and equipment,

1134
01:35:19,402 --> 01:35:30,002
I still prefer that situation to opening my door wide open with a sign and like marketing that thieves can enter here.

1135
01:35:30,742 --> 01:35:32,762
It's a huge difference to me.

1136
01:35:32,962 --> 01:35:38,482
And obviously to me, making it more difficult and need more complexity.

1137
01:35:39,082 --> 01:35:39,602
Costly.

1138
01:35:39,922 --> 01:35:42,762
Everything to spam the blockchain or grift on the blockchain.

1139
01:35:43,102 --> 01:35:44,382
We should do that.

1140
01:35:45,602 --> 01:35:45,782
Yeah.

1141
01:35:45,782 --> 01:35:50,162
Why limit script pubkeys to 34 bytes?

1142
01:35:50,462 --> 01:35:55,602
Script pubkeys must be stored indefinitely in quick access memory by all nodes.

1143
01:35:56,042 --> 01:36:00,662
Modern usage is all 34 bytes or smaller,

1144
01:36:00,882 --> 01:36:03,662
as actual spending conditions are in the witness.

1145
01:36:04,102 --> 01:36:07,862
Large script pubkeys enable data abuse and malicious poison blocks

1146
01:36:07,862 --> 01:36:09,822
that take a long time to validate.

1147
01:36:10,382 --> 01:36:13,222
Yeah, I don't have anything to add to that, I think.

1148
01:36:15,782 --> 01:36:19,222
Is there a slippery slope toward banning use cases?

1149
01:36:19,562 --> 01:36:22,902
No, these rules enshrine longstanding principles of Bitcoin.

1150
01:36:23,042 --> 01:36:27,602
This software does not restrict monetary activity, only non-monetary data storage.

1151
01:36:27,822 --> 01:36:32,002
The temporary nature reinforces a targeted intervention, not a new direction.

1152
01:36:32,642 --> 01:36:34,042
Yeah, I like that point.

1153
01:36:35,402 --> 01:36:40,402
Even if it said, yes, it is a slippery slope toward banning use cases, I would be pro it

1154
01:36:40,402 --> 01:36:42,122
because I don't want use cases.

1155
01:36:42,302 --> 01:36:44,462
I want there to be one single use case.

1156
01:36:44,462 --> 01:36:44,982
Yes.

1157
01:36:44,982 --> 01:36:46,042
Yes. Yes.

1158
01:36:47,102 --> 01:36:47,662
Yes.

1159
01:36:47,922 --> 01:36:49,802
I don't want smart contracts.

1160
01:36:51,802 --> 01:36:53,062
It's just a fact.

1161
01:36:53,282 --> 01:36:55,342
I want monetary transactions on Bitcoin.

1162
01:36:56,162 --> 01:36:56,402
Yeah.

1163
01:36:59,042 --> 01:37:03,202
And even a thing like time locks, which I think are super cool.

1164
01:37:03,702 --> 01:37:07,462
I know that if I was to put my Bitcoins in time lock,

1165
01:37:07,462 --> 01:37:20,369
to time lock them for X number of blocks then they are more at risk than if i could interact with them during that period of course because i cannot predict the future that is a fuck around use case

1166
01:37:20,369 --> 01:37:25,548
even though it's a cool use case it's still a fuck around use case all right does this solve

1167
01:37:25,548 --> 01:37:30,369
spam completely no of course it doesn't and no one ever claimed it did by the way this is the

1168
01:37:30,369 --> 01:37:36,869
that's what the yeah bad argument yeah which is which is also like something i don't like

1169
01:37:36,869 --> 01:37:46,869
with the rhetoric from this V30 core camp that, oh, look, we could put the whole BIP110 PDF

1170
01:37:46,869 --> 01:37:53,828
in the blockchain under BIP110 rules. Yay. So this is pointless. That's bad faith, in my opinion.

1171
01:37:54,489 --> 01:38:00,028
Yeah. The other point I want to make about the smaller, won't the spammers just spread their

1172
01:38:00,028 --> 01:38:04,369
data over multiple fields? This is, I guess the devil's advocate argument there would be that

1173
01:38:04,369 --> 01:38:10,028
since there are smaller fees, they will bloat the UTX set more because there will be more

1174
01:38:10,028 --> 01:38:15,089
transactions and they will have to like spam it up. The point is though, that it's costlier.

1175
01:38:15,889 --> 01:38:26,008
So I do think that that's a bad argument too, even though it could lead to more bloat, but that sort

1176
01:38:26,008 --> 01:38:33,669
of requires all the spammers to have more money to spend on this. And the risk there, I'd say,

1177
01:38:33,669 --> 01:38:40,629
is a state level attack where a nation state decides to kill Bitcoin and they have a money

1178
01:38:40,629 --> 01:38:49,268
printer. So they have infinite money for at least short term before the fiat, their printing dies.

1179
01:38:49,268 --> 01:38:54,548
So they can just print and print and print and spam the chain with or bloat the UTXO set.

1180
01:38:57,028 --> 01:39:00,869
However, that would require a competent government, which is incompatible with

1181
01:39:00,869 --> 01:39:03,268
with a deep state really smart government.

1182
01:39:03,449 --> 01:39:08,109
So I'm unsure there if retardation or 5D chess is the bigger threat.

1183
01:39:08,989 --> 01:39:09,209
Yeah.

1184
01:39:11,989 --> 01:39:15,389
Does this affect the UTXO set?

1185
01:39:16,048 --> 01:39:21,089
No, BIP-110 only limits the size of new outputs going forward.

1186
01:39:21,089 --> 01:39:25,508
It doesn't touch, invalidate, or prune any existing UTXOs.

1187
01:39:25,568 --> 01:39:26,489
This is important.

1188
01:39:27,469 --> 01:39:29,209
You may be thinking of the CAT.

1189
01:39:29,209 --> 01:39:33,089
Yes, the cat is the really controversial proposal.

1190
01:39:34,048 --> 01:39:38,089
And we had a lot of fun trolling people with that by saying meow on X.

1191
01:39:39,149 --> 01:39:44,028
Just threatening with a cat, which is actually going to these ordinals websites

1192
01:39:44,028 --> 01:39:47,409
and picking out these transactions and just making them unspendable.

1193
01:39:48,149 --> 01:39:51,349
When was that meow meme and cat?

1194
01:39:51,449 --> 01:39:52,528
When did cat launch?

1195
01:39:53,209 --> 01:39:57,589
Yeah, I'm sorry you missed it because you would have been perfect for it with the helmet on.

1196
01:39:57,589 --> 01:40:00,268
That was like a couple of months back, I guess.

1197
01:40:00,748 --> 01:40:05,089
It's an idea by a developer called Claire Ostrom,

1198
01:40:05,268 --> 01:40:09,248
which is probably some kind of NIMM thing.

1199
01:40:09,469 --> 01:40:12,129
And it proposed to actually go to all these sites

1200
01:40:12,129 --> 01:40:15,268
that promote selling stamps and ordinals and inscriptions

1201
01:40:15,268 --> 01:40:18,328
and target it because all the data is there

1202
01:40:18,328 --> 01:40:21,409
where this NFT was minted or whatever,

1203
01:40:21,548 --> 01:40:24,589
where the address of this rare set.

1204
01:40:24,589 --> 01:40:28,248
and you would just go there and invalidate all of those,

1205
01:40:28,389 --> 01:40:31,389
which is, I love the idea as much as I hate the idea,

1206
01:40:31,589 --> 01:40:33,849
the precedent it sets and so on and so forth,

1207
01:40:33,849 --> 01:40:37,568
but I kind of love it just to really, really rug the spammers.

1208
01:40:37,568 --> 01:40:38,768
I love that.

1209
01:40:39,429 --> 01:40:42,169
I love the finding out part of it,

1210
01:40:42,268 --> 01:40:44,589
but I don't love the precedence

1211
01:40:44,589 --> 01:40:47,729
and like basically the principle of it.

1212
01:40:47,849 --> 01:40:50,589
No, and someone would actually have to code the thing first.

1213
01:40:50,828 --> 01:40:52,709
So I think the cat is probably,

1214
01:40:52,709 --> 01:40:58,828
that's not the topic of today definitely not does this affect the lightning network no

1215
01:40:58,828 --> 01:41:02,288
is the short answer here yeah

1216
01:41:02,288 --> 01:41:10,629
i'm sure there will be someone in your comments depending on how many people watch this but

1217
01:41:10,629 --> 01:41:16,349
that will create some type of exotic scenario where it would affect something on the lightning

1218
01:41:16,349 --> 01:41:24,068
network. But I mean, I trust what is said here that basically the summarized answer is no.

1219
01:41:25,109 --> 01:41:32,849
Yeah. Taproot was designed so that... Why is op-if restricted in Tapscript? And here's a long

1220
01:41:32,849 --> 01:41:39,649
explanation. And it's basically to... Oh, this is long and complicated.

1221
01:41:39,649 --> 01:41:48,689
I have seen controversy around this op-if thing at least, but my takeaway from what

1222
01:41:48,689 --> 01:41:55,788
I read is that it's extremely rarely used, if at all, and that there are substitutes for

1223
01:41:55,788 --> 01:42:00,748
it that can be implemented if BIP-110 were to activate.

1224
01:42:00,748 --> 01:42:01,748
Yeah.

1225
01:42:01,748 --> 01:42:07,489
And as we have said before, BIP-110 is a consensus level change and not a mental policy

1226
01:42:07,489 --> 01:42:08,489
that change.

1227
01:42:08,489 --> 01:42:16,469
This is where most of the criticism is like that this is and should be a policy level thing,

1228
01:42:17,009 --> 01:42:22,109
how much you allow or not, choose to allow or not allow in your mempool.

1229
01:42:22,109 --> 01:42:31,009
But I'd say that that is, yes, that was a good position to have up until Core V30, which fucked that up.

1230
01:42:31,248 --> 01:42:37,589
So now that argument does no longer apply, in my view, because they went against the grain there.

1231
01:42:37,589 --> 01:43:04,768
Is this optional for miners? During the signaling phase, miners can choose whether to signal support. If 55% signal in a retarget period, the soft fork locks in early. If not, mandatory signaling kicks in before the deadline. Locks that don't signal are rejected, guaranteeing lock in. Once activated, the new rules are enforced at the consensus level. Any block that violates them is rejected by all enforcing nodes, regardless of the miner's preference.

1232
01:43:04,768 --> 01:43:09,728
Yeah. Are people willing to die on this hill or not? I guess we'll see.

1233
01:43:11,889 --> 01:43:24,849
Yeah. And I hope the debate continues to illuminate what it really is for me and for everyone who wants

1234
01:43:24,849 --> 01:43:34,528
to understand that the sides of it that are still contentious or under understood will be better

1235
01:43:34,768 --> 01:43:40,389
relate to laymen or people with less technique like plebsop people like us.

1236
01:43:41,548 --> 01:43:47,889
And I also hope that, you know, I think I like to think that our conversation today is kind of like

1237
01:43:47,889 --> 01:43:54,328
maybe representative for the level of technical understanding of a lot of Bitcoiners and therefore

1238
01:43:54,328 --> 01:44:01,989
may be useful. And maybe it's useful to have more conversations like this from not necessarily from

1239
01:44:01,989 --> 01:44:08,209
us, but from people who just like, honestly, people, maybe the main target would be people

1240
01:44:08,209 --> 01:44:13,328
who are worried about what Core is doing, because that's where I'm coming from. I would love to

1241
01:44:13,328 --> 01:44:20,429
just brush this aside. And like, why should we even consider this? I mean, we have a great

1242
01:44:20,429 --> 01:44:25,828
developer group in Core that we can trust and things are great, but I don't feel like that.

1243
01:44:25,828 --> 01:44:31,929
I really feel like Core needs to be tempered. Yeah, I totally agree. And

1244
01:44:31,929 --> 01:44:36,429
And the question becomes, is this the way of doing that?

1245
01:44:36,429 --> 01:44:39,949
Or shall we bicker and argue until a better way comes up?

1246
01:44:40,169 --> 01:44:42,969
And this is already gaining some momentum.

1247
01:44:42,969 --> 01:44:46,728
So I'm very unsure that we'll get a second chance at this.

1248
01:44:47,469 --> 01:44:53,489
And so the same argument, like, I think this was one of Giacomo's arguments to you, if I'm not mistaken,

1249
01:44:53,689 --> 01:45:01,469
that it has such low chances of succeeding that we'll have a harder time the next time we try something.

1250
01:45:01,469 --> 01:45:08,909
That will burn more social capital for maybe the right reaction.

1251
01:45:10,048 --> 01:45:22,009
Yes, but the counter argument to that would be, well, Batman was not the hero Gotham wanted, but it's the one they got.

1252
01:45:22,609 --> 01:45:25,589
This is the thing that is on the table.

1253
01:45:25,709 --> 01:45:27,849
There is currently no other thing on the table.

1254
01:45:27,849 --> 01:45:30,909
so maybe now that this is the thing on the table

1255
01:45:30,909 --> 01:45:32,869
then this is the only chance we get

1256
01:45:32,869 --> 01:45:35,568
and therefore we should just fucking do it

1257
01:45:35,568 --> 01:45:40,989
and then everyone can theorize afterwards

1258
01:45:40,989 --> 01:45:46,288
I think doing nothing over a long time period

1259
01:45:46,288 --> 01:45:48,409
is 100% harmful

1260
01:45:48,409 --> 01:45:51,009
that is harm the way I see it

1261
01:45:51,009 --> 01:45:56,849
but I also think doing something rather

1262
01:45:56,849 --> 01:46:08,048
drastic in haste has the potential of being harmful too. It's like, therefore, the conviction

1263
01:46:08,048 --> 01:46:16,949
level and confidence in having understood the aspects that are important to each of us,

1264
01:46:16,949 --> 01:46:24,689
wherever you stand subjectively, is a prerequisite before you die on the hill or before you

1265
01:46:24,689 --> 01:46:31,849
potentially decide to die on a hill because this is important for Bitcoin. This whole

1266
01:46:31,849 --> 01:46:39,449
conflict is very important for Bitcoin. And I don't think it's very overstated to say that

1267
01:46:39,449 --> 01:46:46,489
this is maybe not as important as the block size war, but this whole, it does feel like

1268
01:46:46,489 --> 01:46:54,568
a moment in time for Bitcoin where stakes are high and it really matters which side you choose.

1269
01:46:54,689 --> 01:47:03,068
yeah so so before we close this out like a final question would be what would it take to convince

1270
01:47:03,068 --> 01:47:12,308
you to signal support again for for bip 110 what would that take uh it would take for me to

1271
01:47:12,308 --> 01:47:22,889
reflect more on this and to become more uh confident in the in the points i raised against

1272
01:47:22,889 --> 01:47:36,929
BIP 110, basically. Maybe the biggest thing is uncertainty about everything regarding governance,

1273
01:47:36,929 --> 01:47:46,748
one year temporary activation, what happens after. That whole dynamic is big for me. And

1274
01:47:46,748 --> 01:47:53,849
also to have more clarity on potential for loss of funds for any users.

1275
01:47:55,389 --> 01:48:00,328
Yeah, fair enough. Do you wear flip-flops?

1276
01:48:01,248 --> 01:48:06,228
I did yesterday or the day before. I took them off.

1277
01:48:06,629 --> 01:48:06,949
Okay.

1278
01:48:08,149 --> 01:48:15,369
I mean, I'll just go back to saying maybe two things, you know, that I subscribe to just,

1279
01:48:15,369 --> 01:48:23,689
you know, being open to learning always and to be open to change my mind. And it's not like I really,

1280
01:48:24,909 --> 01:48:30,629
the degree to which I changed my mind was a conviction level. As I think I've become clear

1281
01:48:30,629 --> 01:48:36,509
in this conversation, I am not like one of the people who attack BIP110 in any way. I applaud

1282
01:48:36,509 --> 01:48:42,528
it. I applaud people who want to fight for Bitcoin and who follow principles. I like to

1283
01:48:42,528 --> 01:48:49,209
follow principles. I do that always. I try to, but I, yeah, but I'm, I'm very like, I feel

1284
01:48:49,209 --> 01:48:56,989
embarrassed for having flip-flopped on my outspoken support. And that means I will have to be damn

1285
01:48:56,989 --> 01:49:02,909
sure before I come back in support. Okay. So if we ever see you support it again,

1286
01:49:03,748 --> 01:49:11,268
then that's final. Then I'm on the hill. That's for sure. All right. Yeah. Uh, I'll,

1287
01:49:11,268 --> 01:49:13,609
I'll close out with this once again here.

1288
01:49:13,788 --> 01:49:15,308
We the plebs are the dicks.

1289
01:49:15,469 --> 01:49:17,509
We're reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks.

1290
01:49:18,068 --> 01:49:19,709
And the developers are pussies.

1291
01:49:20,509 --> 01:49:21,728
And the spammers are assholes.

1292
01:49:22,629 --> 01:49:23,849
Pussies just don't like dicks

1293
01:49:23,849 --> 01:49:25,589
because pussies get fucked by dicks.

1294
01:49:26,048 --> 01:49:28,429
But dicks also fuck assholes.

1295
01:49:30,689 --> 01:49:32,949
Assholes who just want to spam on everything.

1296
01:49:33,709 --> 01:49:36,369
Pussies make things that they can deal with assholes

1297
01:49:36,369 --> 01:49:38,268
in their way by increasing up return.

1298
01:49:38,509 --> 01:49:40,528
But the only thing that can fuck an asshole

1299
01:49:40,528 --> 01:49:42,449
is a dick with some balls.

1300
01:49:43,828 --> 01:49:44,048
Yeah.

1301
01:49:44,548 --> 01:49:46,189
With that...

1302
01:49:46,189 --> 01:49:48,429
Strong words, Knut. Strong words.

1303
01:49:48,949 --> 01:49:50,228
Pick a side or don't.

1304
01:49:50,589 --> 01:49:52,709
And remember to brush your teeth.

1305
01:49:53,609 --> 01:49:54,589
And like,

1306
01:49:54,589 --> 01:49:56,389
comment, subscribe, share this thing.

1307
01:49:57,149 --> 01:49:58,089
Call us idiots.

1308
01:49:58,768 --> 01:50:00,768
Call us wise old bearded

1309
01:50:00,768 --> 01:50:02,609
men. You're not bearded. You have a

1310
01:50:02,609 --> 01:50:04,589
mustache or an attempted

1311
01:50:04,589 --> 01:50:06,548
one. And I hope

1312
01:50:06,548 --> 01:50:07,929
to see you again soon, man.

1313
01:50:08,149 --> 01:50:10,389
We see each other way to sell them in

1314
01:50:10,389 --> 01:50:16,909
in the flesh and uh we we have to find an island somewhere where we can hang out with our kids maybe

1315
01:50:16,909 --> 01:50:26,349
we can do your eurasia yeah who knows it's always a pleasure anyway and i i i uh respect you insane

1316
01:50:26,349 --> 01:50:31,528
the the levels of respect i have for you and the decisions you made in life are

1317
01:50:31,528 --> 01:50:38,248
insane and it's always always good to talk to you and and bounce these things back and forth

1318
01:50:38,248 --> 01:50:43,869
I'm going to continue my support for BIP110 now and we'll see what happens in the future.

1319
01:50:45,748 --> 01:50:48,369
Yeah, I respect you a lot, Knut.

1320
01:50:48,528 --> 01:50:54,869
Thanks for having these conversations with me both on this podcast and on the phone before.

1321
01:50:55,248 --> 01:50:58,568
And thanks for being my friend and I hope to talk to you soon.

1322
01:51:00,449 --> 01:51:03,429
With that, this has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

1323
01:51:04,548 --> 01:51:05,469
Cheerio, folks.

1324
01:51:06,136 --> 01:51:07,296
Thank you.

1325
01:51:07,936 --> 01:51:08,376
Bye.