The Treasury of Michael Saylor with Anil Patel | Bitcoin Infinity Show #179

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Bitcoin's currently a $2 trillion asset class. It's going to capture perhaps half of the monetary

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premium in the world, which gives it about 100x upside from here. The only scenario in which I

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see someone competing with strategy would be just a government through seizure of assets,

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either through crime or rugging their citizens. So even if you're just thinking from a game theory

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point of view, if you're a company and your competitors adopt Bitcoin, they could be a worse

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off company, inferior products, lower profit margins. But if you're both cashflow positive

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and they're storing the fruits of their labor in Bitcoin,

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well, over time, they're just going to destroy you.

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Anil, welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

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Nice to have you here.

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Great to see you.

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Excited to chat.

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It's been a long time.

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It's been a long time.

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You were on back when we were the Freedom Footprint Show

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and you had your first book, a beautifully designed book.

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And now you've written a second book, this time about someone else.

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that's someone else being Michael Saylor

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it's called the treasury of Michael Saylor

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and in it you explain

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in a very visual way as usual

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I suspect

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what Michael Saylor's

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strategy is

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is that right?

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yeah pretty much bang on

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you know kind of following

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his own journey of

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having all this cash

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sitting on his balance sheet

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and kind of having a moment of panic

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of what do you do?

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How do you preserve it

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as inflation is kind of chipping away at it?

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And he kind of has to go through

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that process of elimination

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and then also convince other people

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on his board and shareholders

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within his own professional community

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that he's not crazy

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and that this actually is the best path forward.

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And then it's about how they execute on that

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and what the future might look like.

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Since it's been a while since last you were on,

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can you give our listeners

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a little TLDR on yourself?

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Where did you come from in Fiat land and how did you end up in Bitcoin land?

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Yeah, I did a bunch of things in Fiat land.

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I worked in the music industry.

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I worked in higher education, worked for a few startups.

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And yeah, then when I made my way into Bitcoin, I kind of did it through the education route

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where I was just putting out educational content that I thought others might find useful.

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And then, you know, I went and worked for a bunch of Bitcoin companies within the space.

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Swan, Unchained, Bitcoin Magazine, did some angel investing.

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I'm an investor in about a dozen Bitcoin companies that I personally believe in.

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And in the process of that, I've also written a couple of books.

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So I'd say, yeah, primarily education has been my focus.

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How many books at this point?

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And what are they called?

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So yeah, two under my own name.

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So the Bitcoin Handbook, which is really just a collection of mental models

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that I think are helpful for anyone trying to make sense of Bitcoin.

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It's now out in about 10 languages, which is pretty cool.

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And then I had the fortune of working with Parker Lewis to turn his essay series gradually

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then suddenly into a book, which I'm really proud of.

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I think everyone should own that.

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And yeah, my latest one, The Treasury of Michael Saylor, is now out and should be out in about

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five or six languages in the coming months as well.

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And again, all of it you can get for free.

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Awesome.

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Awesome.

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And Parker Lewis's book is published with the Safe for Dean's publishing company, right?

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The Safe House, if I'm not mistaken.

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Yeah.

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So you can pay with stats and get it through safefadean.com.

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Fantastic.

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But we're here today to talk about the latest book, I guess.

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And how much was Michael himself involved with this project, or if at all?

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Yeah, very little.

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You know, he was very supportive of me doing this.

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You know, that was nice.

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and I'd been posting a lot of content of his, basically distilling it, trying to find these

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lessons and analogies that I thought were really connecting with people. He's a very effective

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communicator, like whether you like him or not, I don't think you can argue with that.

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And so I'd kind of collected enough material that it made sense to make a book and really,

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it was just a book I wanted to own. And it's not a book promoting strategy as a company. It's not a

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book that's particularly pro-Michael. It's really just a book about an individual taking a first

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principles approach and looking at Bitcoin from an engineering perspective. If you were to have an

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ideal form of money or a way to store value, how would you design that from the ground up?

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Maybe the same way you'd design an airplane's fuselage. I hope it's very accessible to people.

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It's very difficult to argue with a lot of the material in the book.

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And it kind of just explains why the logical step for an individual, charity, community,

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and a corporation should save long-term if they're creating value in society, should

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put that value into Bitcoin long-term.

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Yeah, I saw a nice talk about this this summer at the Plan B Business School in Lugano when

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when Preston Pysh explained, he used a bicycle as a metaphor, for instance, and also a like a

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water power plant of some kind, like a pond of water, which represented all the boomer money

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that were so far inaccessible to the Bitcoin space and how Michael has been able to tap into that.

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And the different MicroStrategy products with different yield curves and whatnot was sort of

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the gears on the bicycle depending on how steep the hill was at the moment well what what how do

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you describe it in your book i mean i guess this is a spoiler episode um yeah yeah well i was very

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fortunate that there are actually two forwards in the book and one was written by senator lammus

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who was behind the bitcoin act and the other one was written by preston so he kind of explains

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very well what Michael is doing in even clearer terms. He uses a similar analogy that he used in

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Luongo. One of the chapters is Michael laying out the case of what Standard Oil did. How Rockefeller

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took this product, this commodity, crude oil, and then was distilling it in different levels of

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purity to create different products for different consumers with different needs. And, you know,

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Michael's used this analogy many times. It's no secret that that's what they're doing,

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is that there are markets that exist right now that aren't being served.

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And he plans to serve them using Bitcoin as his capital base.

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So, yeah. And the book also contains a transcript from an interview between Michael and Preston,

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where they're kind of discussing, you know, Bitcoin is this ideal measuring unit for conducting,

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you know, any kind of economic transaction. All right. And how did this whole thing start? I mean,

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we've had both Michael and Eric Weiss on the show. I think Eric twice, if I'm not misremembering.

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And Eric is known as the guy who orange-pilled Michael, and this is during the lockdowns and

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stuff. And they're sitting on this giant lawn in Miami, and he's like, Michael, maybe you should

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have another look into Bitcoin. Like, is that whole story in the book as well? Yeah, briefly,

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briefly, it definitely goes into that moment of, you know, during the pandemic. And that was

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clearly that hit of inflation was kind of the final nail in the coffin for him to be like,

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something's wrong here. I need to better understand money. I need to better understand,

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you know, central banking and that kind of led him on his own journey to kind of discover and

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accept Bitcoin as the ultimate form of money. Yeah. And then there's a whole process of orange

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peeling the board, which cannot have been the easiest task in the world. And how did he pull

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that off? Well, so if you go back and read the mobile wave, which he wrote in 2012, and he kind

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of lays out the case that, you know, every time there's a technological, like a paradigm shift,

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essentially, there are going to be these players that emerge to dominate certain applications

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in a new field. So the mobile wave was kind of about these dominant digital networks that we now

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know as the Mag7 or the Fang stocks. And his thesis was absolutely correct. He was right.

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There were all these winner-take-all markets, and there were going to be these kind of superpowers

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that emerged from the birth of the internet. And if you read that, and perhaps you've been

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on Michael's board for a decade and you read that book too and you've watched how he operates,

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you kind of know he's always on the lookout for the next thing. And so when Bitcoin came along,

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I think he was perfectly primed to grasp it and also know that you have to act pretty quickly

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to kind of carve out that dominant place in an industry. And he's made no secrets about wanting

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to be the Bitcoin bank.

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So yeah, I'm sure his board were kind of aware that there would be another thing coming that

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he'd be a very strong proponent for.

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So being the Bitcoin bank for the world, is that the end goal in your opinion?

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Do you think that's what he's building here?

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Yeah, to be clear, I have no inside information.

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I tried to make the book purely out of publicly available interviews, but he has said publicly

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in like, you know, maybe a few years back in interviews, he was kind of using that term.

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He wanted to be the Bitcoin bank. And to be that, you have to be, you know, 150% Bitcoin,

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which is why they're looking at different strategies to, you know, leverage debt and

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acquire Bitcoin in like accretive ways. So I do think he believed it's a winner take all market,

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just like e-commerce was just like online news was in search so my opinion you know become the bank

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and then you're creating different products the same way rockefeller was using that um refining

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analogy of oil so everything from asphalt or bitumen to to natural gas like and everything

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between diesel and gasoline and stuff exactly exactly all kinds of yields all kinds of maturities

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all right and how how would you explain what he's doing in in like the simplest terms to the to the

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layman like what what what's what has he found here so in the simplest terms i would say big of

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probably one of the smartest people you know and i'm talking objectively here if you if you looked

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at his own knowledge base and the kind of all the different pieces of history and engineering

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and knowledge that he draws upon when he talks just in general. So one of the most well-read,

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most knowledgeable people you know, been spending all day on ChatGPT interacting with the smart

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stay high, you know. What do you think will be the result of that? And by the way, this very

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smart individual is also incredibly well capitalized and has a lot of resources to do what

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they want so in my opinion yeah the outcome of that is going to be dominance in whatever field

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they choose to pursue so it's as simple as that it's it's just the smartest guy in the room figures

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out that he should sell the the losing asset and buy the winning asset like and acquire as much

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debt as possible i guess in the thing that is losing value and buy the thing that is gaining

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in value it's as simple as that yeah and he's not the only person doing this right like all

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very wealthy people do this they just most of them have not rocked bitcoin so they don't understand

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what the asset you should want to hold is so yeah he could he definitely understood the importance

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of being being early being first and acting acting um very strongly early on yeah and if i understood

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Preston correctly, all the other products that are in MST, they're called like MSTR and MST,

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some other letters, or STR. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm bad with this stuff. But anyway,

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he described them as like the gears on a bicycle because they have X percent guaranteed yield in

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dollars per year and then the rest goes to strategy because they are expecting bitcoin to go up more

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than that and there are different levels so you so like a four percent yield eight percent yield

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ten percent yield whatever it is guaranteed and then that comes at the price and there was also

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some mechanism of like all of this funding the the extra funds that comes from the number go up

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funding the underlying thing or something like how would you explain these other products at a very

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simple level if you look at his overall thesis which is i would say is a lot of a lot of bitcoins

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have a similar thesis that bitcoin is currently a two trillion dollar asset class it's going to

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capture you know perhaps half of the monetary premium in the world which gives it about a

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hundred x upside from here and you think how long will it take to to reach that kind of saturation

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point or monetization, or maybe, you know, 20 to 30 years, if you look at other technology cycles,

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okay, and you work backwards, and you're like, okay, that gives us roughly 30% a year is our

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expectation of what Bitcoin should appreciate in fiat terms. Well, then you're kind of saying to

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yourself well I can then lend at a rate lower than 30 And I should theoretically be okay Now obviously you don want to be borrowing money at 29 with an expectation of a 30 payoff

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You want to have a much, much wider gap. And so he kind of has this explanation of,

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you want long duration debt at the lowest interest rate you can get. And so if you're paying out

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investors who own some of these preferred shares at 8% per year, getting the cash today to invest

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in an asset you believe is going to appreciate 30% per year. It's pretty simple business in that

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respect. Now there's a lot of different conditions and scenarios that can happen within all those

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products. I'm not suggesting anyone go out and buy any of them by any means, but at a very simple

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rate, you know, the way strategy is built and all the different pipes they built and

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the access they have to different capital pools that sit around the world.

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At a very simple explanation, it's we want your money today.

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We're going to pay you X percent.

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And we expect that our Bitcoin is going to appreciate by way, way more than that in the

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future.

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so so it's a low time preference game for sure like this is yes i've heard michael michael ask

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the question rhetorically well like if if you were to store gold for the last hundred years

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where would you store it like what what city would you prefer to store it in and turns out there's no

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real good there was no real good place to store your gold for the last hundred years like it has

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all been captured by some empire somehow. And this is still true. Like, not your vault, not your gold,

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I guess. Speaking of not your keys, not your coins is a phrase I kind of miss hearing at these

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conferences. I go to a lot of Bitcoin conferences, you know, and we sort of never hear this, this

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not your keys, not your coins phrase anymore since these strategic reserve companies started

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popping up. And sure, I believe that MicroStrategy, or I shouldn't say MicroStrategy,

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I should say Strategy, because that's their name now. I believe this is probably the safest bet

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within this realm. I think there are going to be a lot of rug pulls with other companies, and

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not everyone is playing a fair game here. I think I tweeted something about them being this cycle

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shitcoins. So the saying now is sort of, you either die a Bitcoiner or you live long enough

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to see yourself become the suit coiner.

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And is there a truth to that?

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And what's the danger there in your opinion?

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Yeah, you know, like you said,

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it's these treasury companies,

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it doesn't take much to spin one up

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or take a company over

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and turn it into a treasury company.

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So there's nothing particularly special

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about a Bitcoin treasury company

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that emerges today.

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It definitely comes down to the management team

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and the strategy they pursue.

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And, you know, I personally do own MSTR.

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And I own it in a capacity where there's money that cannot own Bitcoin outright.

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You know, someone asks me, what would I like to own?

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I would like to own Bitcoin in self-custody, multi-jurisdictional, multi-sig setup.

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That is the top of the pyramid.

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So, you know, Michael's kind of made clear that there is a lot of capital in the world

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that cannot access Bitcoin directly.

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you know, can never buy spot Bitcoin. Their mandate just won't allow them to hold the commodity.

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And you go talk to anyone who runs a pension fund, you know, this is very obvious. So what can they

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own and gain some exposure to Bitcoin or get a yield of eight, 9% when interest rates are full?

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So yeah, there's trade-offs in everything. And by no means am I promoting people should own

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strategy stock. But when someone asks me like, well, why, why do you own MSTR? And I'm like,

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well, my due diligence was writing a book. I literally went and researched the team,

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the company, the strategy, and looked into how Michael thinks over a hundred of hours,

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hundreds of hours of content. And, you know, the outcome of that was me thinking, okay,

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if I have money that I cannot put directly into Bitcoin for legal reasons, tax reasons, whatnot,

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I will and I can't own an ETF either then MSTR is the next best thing so yeah but not your keys

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not your coins I agree you don't you don't hear much of that anymore and you certainly won't hear

238
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that in the traditional financial world because that's where most of the fees come from is from

239
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financial institutions holding your assets for you charging you a fee and you know sometimes in

240
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jurisdictions racking you so yeah it's it's definitely something people should be aware of

241
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yeah i think this this is the beauty of the thing is it's a true trojan horse in that sense because

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the bitcoin needs to be permissionless to work like if if we're if a government or a regulator

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gets to decide what a node is then bitcoin is not bitcoin anymore so it sort of needs to be black

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market money at its core it needs to be by the people for the people even though the people are

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retarded i mean this is this is the beauty of the network right so so we're the the trojan horse

246
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metaphor is is very beautiful in that sense because that's what we're selling that so what i usually

247
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warn people about these products is like yeah for a fiat world product it's probably pretty good

248
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but it's still the bitcoins aren't strategies in the not your keys not your coin sense they're not

249
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even that the allegedly that they are on coinbase right i think they store with coinbase or with

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some other key holder at the end of the day is some guy at coinbase is very very wealthy at this

251
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point or or a few guys because it's probably a multi-sig thing and it's so my fear is couldn't

252
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some guy at coinbase just disappear one day and then there's zeros everywhere and some guy has

253
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both in Ireland, like, and poop through your gone. Like, what's your take on that?

254
00:20:21,719 --> 00:20:28,839
Yeah, I guess, firstly, to be publicly listed on the NASDAQ, there are, there's a lot more

255
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scrutiny. In fact, it's probably like the most scrutiny of any capital market in the world,

256
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if you want to list and, you know, be a company of that size, have analysts constantly, you know,

257
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looking at your company. And, you know, if you see or have joined any of their earnings calls,

258
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and you see that they get, you know, about a quarter of a million people tuning in live.

259
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Think about how many people are doing research on them from every angle all the time. Like they're

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under a pretty big microscope. Now that said, that maybe is no replacement for, you know,

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proof of reserves and what have you. And the reason I wrote the book was not so much to tell

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people that you should buy this stock or any kind of investment advice. In fact, one of the chapters

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in the book is Michael laying out the 18 or 24 risks, I think, of equities. One of them being

264
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custody risk, right? If you invest in any equity, you're trusting the management team,

265
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you're trusting the jurisdiction, you're trusting the government, you're trusting the products they

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issue, you're trusting there won't be any employees committing fraud. So he's very aware of all those

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risks and makes them clear publicly. But if you're interested in finance in any capacity,

268
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it doesn't matter where you are in the world, if you're interested in markets in any capacity,

269
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you need to understand what's going on. You don't have to agree with it. You don't have to like it.

270
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You don't have to be in favor of it, but you will need to understand it. So yeah, if anything,

271
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yeah, you should read the book purely from an educational point.

272
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Yeah, I absolutely agree. I'm just saying that. So I'm not advising people to not buy strategy

273
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stock either. I'm just saying that at the end of the day, like possessing a Bitcoin, if you will,

274
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rather than owning it, it's just having a piece of information that you don't think other people

275
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have, i.e. the private key. And some guy will have to hold the private key. Or if it's a multisig,

276
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it's a few guys but they can collude like and is there a scenario where we have the the final scene

277
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of fight club play out instead of this beautiful like i because i'm sort of looking forward to that

278
00:22:42,159 --> 00:22:49,019
yeah well yeah again i don't have any insight into how a lot of these treasury companies are

279
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setting up their their custody solutions you know as you point out a lot of people or a lot of yeah

280
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Yeah, it's more a question of the custodians themselves rather than the treasury company.

281
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Yeah, and it's unfortunate a lot of them use Coinbase custody because that's just one of the most, it's got the most ticks from regulators in the US that it maybe is the easiest solution.

282
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And, you know, I personally am no fan of Brian Armstrong.

283
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So it's interesting.

284
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I wonder how it'll play out, but I don't have any immediate concerns.

285
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Yeah, and before some guy walks off with the money, he should be aware that there are half a million people looking at these board meetings and stuff.

286
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So some guy would be pressured not to bail with the money, I guess.

287
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Anyway, what's the other risk there?

288
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Is there a risk that Coinbase and the likes of Coinbase become so powerful that they have too much of a say in Bitcoin's direction in the future, do you think?

289
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Like right now, I think like 60%, more than 60% of the coins are still held by individuals and not by institutions.

290
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But if that number shrinks and all of a sudden we have Coinbase being this giant key holding player and the more of these treasury companies we see, the more institutionalized Bitcoin gets, the less grassroots it gets.

291
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And then there is, in my mind, at least there's a higher risk of capture there at some point.

292
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But what are your views on that?

293
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What are Michael's views?

294
00:24:31,599 --> 00:24:53,979
Yeah, I don't know Michael's views on this one, but my own views, I think there's lots of different kind of cycles happening. So for at an individual level, and let's talk about, you know, millennials, maybe, maybe their first foray into Bitcoin is buying an ETF in their, you know, Robinhood account.

295
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and maybe they live in a country where the government kind of rugs them similar to you know

296
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say what happened in cyprus or greece or even the 08 financial crisis and then they go deeper down

297
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the rabbit hole understand central banking a bit more and go from a wrapped etf product to self

298
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custody which then is you know kind of draining funds out of out of those pools then you have you

299
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know, say the treasury companies, if the goal is to hold Bitcoin you acquire forever, well,

300
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how many businesses can actually do that? Do you think of all the risks, you know,

301
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business cycle risk, you have to have a very strong strategy and balance sheet to be able to,

302
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you know, do that. I think a lot of treasury companies, like you mentioned, you know,

303
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probably will blow up and go through bankruptcy and those Bitcoin will end up back in, you know,

304
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on the market available for individuals to purchase. So I kind of see it as a cycle. I don't

305
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imagine a scenario where all the Bitcoin is held by BlackRock and strategy. I think there are just

306
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so many other factors at play, like especially demographics and generational preferences.

307
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And the next generation probably has less and less trust for custodians.

308
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Yeah. And in Bitcoin, like your first million sets is the hardest, not the easiest. Like the

309
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the dollar works differently.

310
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Like the first million dollars is the easiest.

311
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That's the saying, right?

312
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And Bitcoin is the reverse.

313
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It's like the inverse of everything.

314
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So number go up also stops these institutions

315
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from becoming too large

316
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simply because the coins get more expensive.

317
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I think Bitcoin was around 20K

318
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like the first time Michael bought any

319
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or even lower than that.

320
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Yeah, I think about nine.

321
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That low?

322
00:26:40,539 --> 00:26:41,359
Oh, really?

323
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For his personal holdings, yeah.

324
00:26:43,299 --> 00:26:50,259
was oh yeah yeah but yeah strategy's first purchase yeah i think it was around 10 or yeah yeah okay so

325
00:26:51,459 --> 00:26:59,619
yeah yeah which which is hilarious in hindsight yes so we all thought he was late like you know

326
00:27:00,259 --> 00:27:08,899
yeah you're never late to bitcoin yeah so so what's what's the main thing that sets strategy apart

327
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from all these other treasury companies,

328
00:27:11,559 --> 00:27:13,079
except for them being bigger?

329
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Two things.

330
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I mean, first, you know,

331
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so it's not necessarily being bigger.

332
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It's, you know, someone kind of thinks,

333
00:27:20,859 --> 00:27:25,259
okay, so let's say they have 680,000 Bitcoin at this point,

334
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640, around that.

335
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For another company to compete with them,

336
00:27:30,279 --> 00:27:34,719
it's not simply buying $70 billion worth of Bitcoin,

337
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which they have.

338
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It's actually the replacement cost.

339
00:27:37,239 --> 00:27:54,978
you got a bid into the market right now to try and acquire 640 Bitcoin What might that cost you What might that do to the price What might that do to strategy stock as a result and their ability to purchase more Bitcoin So you fighting a

340
00:27:54,978 --> 00:27:59,198
losing battle if you're going to try and take them on. The only scenario in which I see someone

341
00:27:59,198 --> 00:28:06,658
competing with strategy meaningfully would be just a government through seizure of assets,

342
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either through crime or rugging their citizens,

343
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in which case they might be able to reach that kind of threshold.

344
00:28:12,998 --> 00:28:15,598
And the other piece, what was I going to say?

345
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I know there is no second best.

346
00:28:19,838 --> 00:28:22,958
Well, I just, yeah, he kind of, yeah.

347
00:28:23,158 --> 00:28:26,398
Oh, this is a very underappreciated point, I think,

348
00:28:26,858 --> 00:28:31,559
is that, you know, Michael has been a public markets executive

349
00:28:31,559 --> 00:28:35,898
for three decades and he saw his stock go from, you know,

350
00:28:35,898 --> 00:28:43,178
I think $300 to less than a dollar and basically saw like a 99% decline in his personal net worth,

351
00:28:43,278 --> 00:28:50,258
which would, you know, crush any average person. But think about someone who's very determined

352
00:28:50,258 --> 00:28:55,078
and how much more that might play on you. And your major newspapers are making fun of you.

353
00:28:55,178 --> 00:28:58,758
You're on the front page of like the Wall Street Journal and they're mocking you.

354
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and I just don't think that Michael has forgotten any of that and I don't think he's going to let

355
00:29:06,398 --> 00:29:11,758
that happen again so I think you have someone who's got a lot of wisdom through a lot of pain

356
00:29:11,758 --> 00:29:18,758
in the past and is being very careful to to not repeat any of the same things that happened in the

357
00:29:18,758 --> 00:29:25,418
past yeah I I haven't had a chance to have a chat with Michael since I think New Year's but I saw his

358
00:29:25,418 --> 00:29:31,819
talk in in prague and that that talk had a lot to do with it's called 21 years i think like the

359
00:29:32,698 --> 00:29:40,059
21 everything and it was a lot about like advising people to to borrow money to to acquire bitcoin

360
00:29:40,698 --> 00:29:46,539
and that made me raise an eyebrow because like is is that really advisable we know that bitcoin

361
00:29:46,539 --> 00:29:53,738
can have long ass dips like it can take a while before before the next bull run i mean i mean

362
00:29:53,738 --> 00:30:00,098
I absolutely believe that as long as it continues to function, it can only go up.

363
00:30:00,358 --> 00:30:02,098
But there will be cycles.

364
00:30:02,358 --> 00:30:05,898
One of the cycles is probably the last cycle, and that's going to be weird.

365
00:30:06,318 --> 00:30:11,799
But we have no idea if that last cycle is like four years away or 400 years away.

366
00:30:12,078 --> 00:30:16,618
So is that really advisable to borrow fiat to buy Bitcoin?

367
00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:19,358
It depends.

368
00:30:19,358 --> 00:30:23,039
I mean, look, let's take the New Year's party, for example.

369
00:30:23,738 --> 00:30:29,378
And I mean, you know, kind of look around who was there and you have very public people,

370
00:30:29,539 --> 00:30:35,238
very senior people within the US government, other billionaires, a lot of notable people

371
00:30:35,238 --> 00:30:38,258
that you can kind of see, okay, Michael's a very well-connected person.

372
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He's in a lot of conversations.

373
00:30:40,898 --> 00:30:47,498
And I don't imagine he would ever advise people to do something unless he understood that something

374
00:30:47,498 --> 00:30:52,638
had such a great deal of certainty within a certain jurisdiction that it probably is

375
00:30:52,638 --> 00:30:59,278
similar risk to someone, you know, leveraging real estate by taking, you know, a 90%

376
00:30:59,278 --> 00:31:06,018
of a house via a mortgage, you know, putting 10% down, borrowing 90%, you know, 3% for 30 years.

377
00:31:06,418 --> 00:31:11,338
Well, if you were going to do that for an investment property, so not your primary residence,

378
00:31:11,978 --> 00:31:15,978
well, why wouldn't you look at other assets that have kind of similar terms? And again,

379
00:31:15,978 --> 00:31:22,598
I also agree with you, I would never tell someone to borrow to acquire Bitcoin at a personal level.

380
00:31:22,638 --> 00:31:27,818
but if you're in a position where you're like hey i've got a few hundred grand i'm looking at

381
00:31:27,818 --> 00:31:33,078
purchasing this piece of real estate well what are your other options if your goal is purely

382
00:31:33,078 --> 00:31:37,998
a return in the future you know unless you're really passionate about real estate and you want

383
00:31:37,998 --> 00:31:42,478
to be a real estate investor because you just love real estate yeah you have to go through that

384
00:31:42,478 --> 00:31:46,758
checklist of what are all the other asset classes you should be looking at against the same terms

385
00:31:46,758 --> 00:31:51,318
if you're planning to borrow money to purchase it so that's my own take

386
00:31:51,318 --> 00:31:57,618
yeah it's probably a good one i mean i the way i see it with real estate is like the

387
00:31:57,618 --> 00:32:03,578
problem with real estate is that it's being used as money like as proper money as store value or

388
00:32:03,578 --> 00:32:09,778
as i prefer to say medium exchange over time anyway so real estate being used as a store of

389
00:32:09,778 --> 00:32:16,358
value makes real estate worse as housing for human beings and i think there's a flip side to that i

390
00:32:16,358 --> 00:32:22,138
think the same is true for money. Like if money has other use cases than the monetary use case. So

391
00:32:22,138 --> 00:32:28,299
if money is used for JPEG storage, for instance, then I think it becomes a worse form of money

392
00:32:28,299 --> 00:32:35,338
because it gets priced differently because it has other use cases. And also, yeah, all the UTXO

393
00:32:35,338 --> 00:32:42,938
bloats and all that stuff. Are you taking a side in this latest Knotts vs. Kort? I accidentally

394
00:32:42,938 --> 00:32:49,418
stumbled into this but oh just yeah i'd love to hear you love to uh honestly i i didn't

395
00:32:49,418 --> 00:32:54,618
want to end up there but but here we are so i'm gonna divert look there are a lot of smarter

396
00:32:54,618 --> 00:33:00,638
people involved in this debate than i am um i always just you know fall back on the fact that

397
00:33:00,638 --> 00:33:07,918
fortunately for us you know uh bitcoin clients you know they're backwards compatible so i don't see

398
00:33:07,918 --> 00:33:14,258
any immediate need to upgrade to something I don't fully understand the risks or opportunities of.

399
00:33:14,978 --> 00:33:21,478
And going back to your point about monetary premiums, that's why I still to this day recommend

400
00:33:21,478 --> 00:33:27,378
Vijay's essay, The Bullish Case of Bitcoin, where there's a beautiful chart where he kind of lays

401
00:33:27,378 --> 00:33:33,318
out the monetary premium of silver, gold, and Bitcoin. And Bitcoin is just pure monetary premium

402
00:33:33,318 --> 00:33:37,618
because you don't, like you said, you don't want any other applications competing for that asset.

403
00:33:37,918 --> 00:33:43,878
And that's something that gold bucks just completely miss when they argue with Bitcoiners and saying, but you can use it in dentistry.

404
00:33:44,878 --> 00:33:48,238
Like, yeah, that makes it a worse asset to hold.

405
00:33:49,278 --> 00:33:49,598
Yes.

406
00:33:50,218 --> 00:33:51,998
They never seem to get that.

407
00:33:51,998 --> 00:34:07,278
But I think that that's true for, like, if we set the whole which version you're running kind of debate aside, like the other use cases that they are trying to push onto Bitcoin.

408
00:34:07,278 --> 00:34:13,499
is like obviously going to make it, it will compete with the medium exchange use case,

409
00:34:13,738 --> 00:34:15,378
which is what the thing is for.

410
00:34:15,878 --> 00:34:17,618
So we'll see what happens with that.

411
00:34:18,378 --> 00:34:25,459
At least I haven't seen any dickbutt JPEGs inscribed in the actual ETFs.

412
00:34:25,459 --> 00:34:32,439
That might be a thing in the future that you get an official document with a US government

413
00:34:32,439 --> 00:34:34,818
stamp and there's a dickbutt JPEG on it too.

414
00:34:35,538 --> 00:34:36,338
What do you think?

415
00:34:37,278 --> 00:34:39,878
Yeah, anything's possible, right? Missionless.

416
00:34:41,698 --> 00:34:51,558
So is there a conclusion to the book? Or is it just like, here's the thing? What would you say?

417
00:34:52,238 --> 00:34:58,939
Well, yeah, the conclusion is, it works you through first principles.

418
00:34:58,939 --> 00:35:04,479
Like, what is energy? What is money other than a form of economic energy?

419
00:35:04,479 --> 00:35:13,098
how do individuals benefit or use that to then build capital investments or store wealth?

420
00:35:13,678 --> 00:35:20,979
It just kind of ends with, I guess, another call to action of if you want to be prosperous in the

421
00:35:20,979 --> 00:35:27,258
future, if you want your family to be prosperous, if you want your company to survive, you need to

422
00:35:27,258 --> 00:35:32,198
take a serious look at this. It's not going away and anyone who adopts it will have an immediate

423
00:35:32,198 --> 00:35:36,338
advantage of everyone who does it. So even if you're just thinking from a game theory point

424
00:35:36,338 --> 00:35:43,598
of view, if you're a company and your competitors adopt Bitcoin, they could be a worse off company,

425
00:35:44,258 --> 00:35:50,138
inferior products, lower profit margins. But if you're both, say, cashflow positive,

426
00:35:50,618 --> 00:35:56,158
and they're storing the fruits of their labor in Bitcoin, well, over time, they're just going to

427
00:35:56,158 --> 00:36:02,038
destroy you. If they see a 10x appreciation over a decade in their treasury,

428
00:36:02,198 --> 00:36:04,298
or then you become an acquisition target.

429
00:36:04,818 --> 00:36:07,158
So it's very different at an individual level

430
00:36:07,158 --> 00:36:09,078
saving in Bitcoin versus a corporation

431
00:36:09,078 --> 00:36:10,519
or publicly traded corporation

432
00:36:10,519 --> 00:36:12,278
where you actually have to be aware

433
00:36:12,278 --> 00:36:13,398
of what your competitors are doing

434
00:36:13,398 --> 00:36:15,778
because otherwise they just might acquire you.

435
00:36:16,858 --> 00:36:18,618
So yeah, we're the argument where people

436
00:36:18,618 --> 00:36:20,898
don't quite understand why

437
00:36:20,898 --> 00:36:23,278
these treasury companies are popping up.

438
00:36:23,419 --> 00:36:25,078
It's because it very much is

439
00:36:25,078 --> 00:36:26,939
far more game theoretical

440
00:36:26,939 --> 00:36:30,898
than individuals just casually saving in Bitcoin.

441
00:36:32,198 --> 00:36:41,459
Yeah, no, that's one of the best slides I've seen Michael use in his talks is that one with where you adjust for inflation in a proper manner.

442
00:36:41,459 --> 00:36:49,459
So real inflation, meaning the actual money supply is taken into account and nothing outperforms.

443
00:36:49,999 --> 00:36:57,838
Like even if the S&P 500 is a losing game, like everything's a losing game except four or five companies in the world.

444
00:36:57,959 --> 00:36:59,398
Everything else is just losing.

445
00:36:59,398 --> 00:37:06,138
and and then of course bitcoin and microstrategy outperforms everything so yeah yeah and that's the

446
00:37:06,138 --> 00:37:10,718
other piece is recognizing that there have been different kind of primary saving vehicles of a

447
00:37:10,718 --> 00:37:15,158
time you know for a period of time people saved in government bonds for a period of time people

448
00:37:15,158 --> 00:37:20,758
saved in gold for a period of time currently people are saving in the s&p 500 and all those

449
00:37:20,758 --> 00:37:25,798
things were just tracking the rate of monetary inflation and you know the next what's the next

450
00:37:25,798 --> 00:37:30,738
thing that it is where's all that money going to move next so that's just the question yeah and

451
00:37:30,738 --> 00:37:38,598
also the the idea that saving in something that is inflationary like so so that you actually

452
00:37:38,598 --> 00:37:45,858
you're actually not making any money like in in reality the free market is deflationary and all

453
00:37:45,858 --> 00:37:51,039
prices are falling and if you put on the bitcoin go rules you can actually see this but yeah but

454
00:37:51,039 --> 00:37:57,459
So everyone thinks that zero inflation is like the neutral thing, but it isn't.

455
00:37:58,398 --> 00:38:02,198
Zero inflation is also stealing a whole bunch of...

456
00:38:02,198 --> 00:38:07,158
That's printing as fast as people get better at doing stuff, basically.

457
00:38:08,158 --> 00:38:11,039
So, and I mean, for me, that was a...

458
00:38:11,039 --> 00:38:14,058
When I realized that, then that's a real penny drop.

459
00:38:14,138 --> 00:38:16,939
Like how much they've stolen from us, not only through inflation,

460
00:38:17,078 --> 00:38:19,398
but through not letting deflation happen.

461
00:38:19,398 --> 00:38:22,278
It's just insane.

462
00:38:22,778 --> 00:38:31,078
Yeah, and the amount of unlearning that has to happen for people to recognize that the true nature of technology is deflationary, which is so obvious.

463
00:38:31,499 --> 00:38:32,479
It sounds so obvious.

464
00:38:32,638 --> 00:38:33,919
It's super, super obvious.

465
00:38:34,118 --> 00:38:36,999
The way I put it in clown world was like, ask yourself a question.

466
00:38:37,198 --> 00:38:42,459
If human beings practice doing something, do they usually get better or worse at what they're practicing?

467
00:38:42,999 --> 00:38:44,698
And the answer is obvious.

468
00:38:44,798 --> 00:38:45,439
We get better.

469
00:38:45,439 --> 00:38:51,598
But the follow-up question everyone should ask themselves is, so why aren't all prices falling forever?

470
00:38:52,578 --> 00:38:54,718
Because that's what that means.

471
00:38:55,738 --> 00:38:57,218
It's super simple.

472
00:38:58,078 --> 00:39:01,858
And so few see that.

473
00:39:02,618 --> 00:39:04,499
And that's just insane.

474
00:39:04,818 --> 00:39:06,919
We can understand 2 plus 2.

475
00:39:07,039 --> 00:39:08,258
We can understand language.

476
00:39:08,258 --> 00:39:15,798
and also everyone can but no one sees this absolutely bleeding obvious fact that is staring

477
00:39:15,798 --> 00:39:20,238
us in the face all at all times that you're being stolen from because prices are going up

478
00:39:20,238 --> 00:39:25,939
but then it makes sense from an incentives point of view if you have the money printer

479
00:39:25,939 --> 00:39:31,959
you're going to allocate as much of the money you're printing to keeping your population

480
00:39:31,959 --> 00:39:39,178
economically illiterate or funding you know systems that teach people that you are good

481
00:39:39,178 --> 00:39:47,618
so how much is of this is an actual conspiracy like or is it just the incentives or is there

482
00:39:47,618 --> 00:39:54,098
actually a mad evil genius on top that it rubs his hands and and and it just schemes this into

483
00:39:54,098 --> 00:39:59,378
being i don't know i think like i don't think even when they started the federal reserve that they

484
00:39:59,378 --> 00:40:05,378
they knew where it was going like right maybe someone did but but like most people they don't

485
00:40:05,378 --> 00:40:10,638
see the hockey stick nature of of these things because it's exponential too right that you have

486
00:40:10,638 --> 00:40:16,358
to print more and more as we get better at things faster and faster because we have ais and stuff now

487
00:40:16,358 --> 00:40:21,858
no it's just insane what else do you want to talk about except michael saylor let's let's let's not

488
00:40:21,858 --> 00:40:25,638
narrow this down well let me get i mean yeah you know i don't use a podcast to catch up but yeah

489
00:40:25,638 --> 00:40:31,118
what have you been up to? You've written a few books now, a lot of episodes into the new podcast.

490
00:40:31,479 --> 00:40:35,479
I see you at a ton of conferences. Yeah, what are you working on?

491
00:40:36,338 --> 00:40:44,318
Yeah, I had a lot of fun here the last couple of weeks. I was on a small mini Europe tour. So I was

492
00:40:44,318 --> 00:40:51,358
first in Sofia, Bulgaria for a great little cozy conference there and met the Bulgarian Bitcoin

493
00:40:51,358 --> 00:40:57,039
community again. I've been once before, three years ago, and it's very good to catch up again

494
00:40:57,039 --> 00:41:01,758
and see how things are unfolding there. And then I went to Prague for the Trezor event,

495
00:41:01,758 --> 00:41:08,738
where they released the latest model of the Trezor, Trezor Model 7, which was a very cool

496
00:41:08,738 --> 00:41:14,738
event too. And a lot of good people, a lot of managed to film an interview in driving around

497
00:41:14,738 --> 00:41:21,178
Prague in a veteran car that is coming out soon, I guess. And that was also fun. And after that

498
00:41:21,178 --> 00:41:26,658
straight to Lugano, which was also packed with stuff to do. So what I did there was like the

499
00:41:26,658 --> 00:41:32,638
first night I did this Rocca Moto thing that you might have seen pictures of, where I sing Nirvana

500
00:41:32,638 --> 00:41:47,877
covers with Samson and Luke and Marty And we had a pod a live pod recording 8 in the morning after that So that was a bit rough And yeah and then that day was my 49th birthday

501
00:41:47,877 --> 00:41:53,837
And I did a panel on the history of Austrian economics with Seyfeddin and Rahim.

502
00:41:53,998 --> 00:41:55,318
And that was a great honor.

503
00:41:55,337 --> 00:41:55,617
What a great honor.

504
00:41:56,238 --> 00:41:56,998
No, fantastic.

505
00:41:57,337 --> 00:41:58,778
So I was a very happy boy.

506
00:41:59,677 --> 00:42:02,857
And as always in Lugano, you meet a lot of great people.

507
00:42:02,857 --> 00:42:09,778
and it's it's lugano itself it's just fantastic it's a beautiful place for sure and yeah and now

508
00:42:09,778 --> 00:42:16,837
i'm happily home again and you know the saying you can just do things it's very true but what

509
00:42:16,837 --> 00:42:21,538
people forget is that sometimes you can also just not do things and how great that is

510
00:42:21,538 --> 00:42:27,957
you need recovery between these things but coming up for me later this year is yeah and

511
00:42:27,957 --> 00:42:34,637
Next week on Sunday, I fly out to El Salvador for Bitcoin Historico and adopting Bitcoin.

512
00:42:34,837 --> 00:42:36,418
So that's going to be a lot of fun too.

513
00:42:37,018 --> 00:42:41,258
That looks like some exceptional programming for the Bitcoin Historico.

514
00:42:41,617 --> 00:42:42,837
That looks like a great lineup.

515
00:42:43,038 --> 00:42:43,857
A lot of marble.

516
00:42:45,597 --> 00:42:46,877
No, it's going to be great.

517
00:42:47,177 --> 00:42:50,218
And the venue is, of course, fantastic.

518
00:42:50,377 --> 00:42:51,578
The National Palace.

519
00:42:51,578 --> 00:42:56,038
Yeah, it's kind of amazing how these Bitcoin conferences are now.

520
00:42:56,038 --> 00:43:01,738
yeah just there's just the venues that were get i'm so is it um btc and dc a few weeks back yeah

521
00:43:01,738 --> 00:43:06,418
yeah yeah tell me about that well it was you know it's at the kennedy center it's like yeah

522
00:43:06,418 --> 00:43:11,377
you know and the and the hotel that the conference hotel was the watergate hotel

523
00:43:11,377 --> 00:43:17,097
tomer i had a chat with tomer straw light yesterday he was also there and the kennedy

524
00:43:17,097 --> 00:43:22,778
center is where they inducted like led zeppelin into the rock and roll hall of fame and stuff

525
00:43:22,778 --> 00:43:28,957
right yeah exactly big like that yeah they do like the the mark twain prize for comedy every

526
00:43:28,957 --> 00:43:33,798
year which is a massive occasion so it's just amazing to be like you know here's a group of

527
00:43:33,798 --> 00:43:39,698
bitcoiners in these you know treasured halls all around the world this is kind of starting to

528
00:43:39,698 --> 00:43:46,137
happen where we're going from like you know the basement of like a hair salon to these these

529
00:43:46,137 --> 00:43:51,157
beautiful beautiful venues and you know i think everyone sees that too in the general public they

530
00:43:51,157 --> 00:43:57,438
see like oh what's happening here oh that bitcoin thing you guys have this venue so it has just this

531
00:43:57,438 --> 00:44:02,798
recognition in it now for for people like oh this is a serious serious industry we need to take it

532
00:44:02,798 --> 00:44:09,818
take more um you know more notice for me like the the journey the last decade has just been i just

533
00:44:09,818 --> 00:44:15,637
keep pinching myself because it's it's it's retarded like i can't find a better word like

534
00:44:15,637 --> 00:44:26,038
The amount of banana skids I've managed to slid on, if that's even a word, slip on.

535
00:44:26,438 --> 00:44:28,058
It's just insane.

536
00:44:28,657 --> 00:44:32,498
And when you're in the midst of it, you don't really think about it too much.

537
00:44:32,597 --> 00:44:35,837
You just go with the flow and be yourself and do your best and whatnot.

538
00:44:36,637 --> 00:44:41,078
But sometimes you take a step back and you think, holy shit, what is this thing?

539
00:44:41,078 --> 00:44:45,698
So we have Luke and I have a saying head in the clouds, feet on the ground.

540
00:44:45,698 --> 00:44:47,617
So that's what I try to live by.

541
00:44:47,617 --> 00:44:51,078
You have to stay grounded and like keep your shit together.

542
00:44:51,998 --> 00:44:56,198
But still remember that crazy things can happen.

543
00:44:56,198 --> 00:45:02,798
And it's not it's not if you aim for the stars, you might reach the moon.

544
00:45:03,398 --> 00:45:05,957
Yeah, that's beautifully put.

545
00:45:06,238 --> 00:45:08,698
And, you know, it's also like recognition, right?

546
00:45:08,698 --> 00:45:14,898
that you you put in a lot of work early on and now as more and more people are coming to this space

547
00:45:14,898 --> 00:45:20,698
they you know recognize the work you've put in right and you you're just finally getting paid

548
00:45:20,698 --> 00:45:27,877
i guess in a way i mean you you experience it too uh it's we're we're on the same a very similar

549
00:45:27,877 --> 00:45:34,238
journey and it's home so um yeah you know like that so the spanish version of the treasury of

550
00:45:34,238 --> 00:45:39,137
sale is going to come out very shortly. And yeah, very, very excited about that. I think it's a

551
00:45:39,137 --> 00:45:44,137
really important language to have, especially for Latin America. And I reached out to Ricardo

552
00:45:44,137 --> 00:45:47,698
Salinas. I'm like, would you write the forward to this? I know you and Michael are friends. He's

553
00:45:47,698 --> 00:45:53,438
like, absolutely. Sends me a beautifully written forward. Couldn't, you know, couldn't have asked

554
00:45:53,438 --> 00:45:59,357
for more. Like what a generous, generous guy. And I was talking to my wife. I'm like, oh yeah.

555
00:45:59,598 --> 00:46:03,578
She's like, what are you doing? I'm like, oh, I'm just editing this message I got from, from,

556
00:46:03,578 --> 00:46:08,117
friend oh who's your friend oh it's this billionaire guy like oh michael no no the

557
00:46:08,117 --> 00:46:15,637
other billionaire it's like in what world would someone shit posting on twitter have access to

558
00:46:15,637 --> 00:46:23,518
this caliber of people right it's just it's just ridiculous yeah yeah it absolutely is yeah i have

559
00:46:23,518 --> 00:46:31,157
very very very similar experiences with this and and i think the uh i won't have it done by el

560
00:46:31,157 --> 00:46:34,518
Salvador, unfortunately, but Bitcoin,

561
00:46:35,238 --> 00:46:40,298
el inverso del mundo payaso, which is the primordial Spanish translation,

562
00:46:40,298 --> 00:46:43,038
will come out pretty soon, too, and I'm looking forward to that.

563
00:46:43,198 --> 00:46:47,677
Everything divided is already, there's already a Spanish translation.

564
00:46:47,877 --> 00:46:50,798
Go to BitcoinInfinity.com for more and brush your teeth and all that.

565
00:46:51,258 --> 00:46:51,758
So, yes.

566
00:46:53,018 --> 00:46:57,398
Now, and writing, what's your book writing process like?

567
00:46:57,518 --> 00:46:59,317
Like, how do you write the book?

568
00:46:59,317 --> 00:47:07,317
I don't know if you find this, but it gets easier each time. And you kind of pick up earlier

569
00:47:07,317 --> 00:47:10,698
drafts of your work or a previous book you've written, and you're almost like

570
00:47:10,698 --> 00:47:17,357
disgusted by it. Like, oh, I can't believe I wrote that or designed it that way. I'd never

571
00:47:17,357 --> 00:47:21,137
do that now. I think that's a good thing. You're just continually trying to get better

572
00:47:21,137 --> 00:47:25,957
with the reader in mind. So with this book, it was a bit different because it's just all of

573
00:47:25,957 --> 00:47:31,018
Michael's words. I had, you know, he's done hundreds of interviews. So there's thousands

574
00:47:31,018 --> 00:47:37,117
of hours of content I was sifting through trying to find like the gems. And then luckily we have

575
00:47:37,117 --> 00:47:42,938
Twitter or X so that I would put samples out into the world and see what connected. So it's very low

576
00:47:42,938 --> 00:47:48,137
risk in that way. It literally just took all the greatest hits, Michael's greatest hits. And then

577
00:47:48,137 --> 00:47:51,758
like, okay, that's, that's going to be the book. And then you're just kind of stitching it together

578
00:47:51,758 --> 00:47:57,857
in a logical way. So, you know, not rocket science, but I guess I was the only one who was

579
00:47:57,857 --> 00:48:02,058
willing to spend a year doing it, which again, just shows you, you know, you don't have to be

580
00:48:02,058 --> 00:48:05,778
the smartest. You have to be the best at it. You just have to be the one willing to work

581
00:48:05,778 --> 00:48:12,298
the hardest. And how visual is this book? Like in comparison to the very, yeah, I made about 200

582
00:48:12,298 --> 00:48:17,938
different graphics for it. About a hundred made it into the book. So yeah, I'd say more material

583
00:48:17,938 --> 00:48:20,098
got cut out of it than ended up in it.

584
00:48:20,837 --> 00:48:21,778
So hopefully, you know,

585
00:48:21,877 --> 00:48:23,677
it explains it to pretty much anyone.

586
00:48:23,798 --> 00:48:25,538
The goal was that anyone could pick up this book

587
00:48:25,538 --> 00:48:27,837
and be able to comprehend what's going on.

588
00:48:27,957 --> 00:48:29,877
You don't need to have an understanding of physics.

589
00:48:30,157 --> 00:48:31,218
You don't need to know

590
00:48:31,218 --> 00:48:33,078
what the Canteon effect is.

591
00:48:33,377 --> 00:48:35,438
You can grok what's happening.

592
00:48:36,357 --> 00:48:37,957
Because the way I see it,

593
00:48:38,058 --> 00:48:40,438
this might be a controversial opinion,

594
00:48:40,637 --> 00:48:41,538
but I think...

595
00:48:41,538 --> 00:48:43,357
No, get out of here.

596
00:48:44,298 --> 00:48:46,418
But everyone can do proof of work.

597
00:48:46,418 --> 00:49:10,457
Yeah. Like, few can do proof of results, like, and actually produce something that people want. And few people have an actual unique talent. And yours is, in my opinion, is with those visualizations, because they're absolutely top notch in teaching complex concepts in very accessible ways. And I think they're absolutely brilliant.

598
00:49:10,837 --> 00:49:11,877
Yeah, thank you. Appreciate that.

599
00:49:11,877 --> 00:49:17,877
the handbook is absolutely beautiful and yeah i'd love to do something together at one point and

600
00:49:17,877 --> 00:49:25,058
we'll see absolutely we'll see i have some ideas for the future but yeah i usually write in the

601
00:49:25,058 --> 00:49:30,598
mornings because i i've heard john cleese say this once that you need not only not to be interrupted

602
00:49:30,598 --> 00:49:35,498
but you need to know that you're not going to get interrupted in order for the creative uses to flow

603
00:49:35,498 --> 00:49:42,918
properly i love his his book creativity i i refer to a lot yeah it's great so do i it's a fantastic

604
00:49:42,918 --> 00:49:48,018
book and i i can't recommend the audiobook enough it's a very short read it's like around an hour

605
00:49:48,018 --> 00:49:55,038
even shorter if you play it faster and he he reads his own book and laughs at his own jokes and it's

606
00:49:55,038 --> 00:50:02,598
just wonderful yeah so comedy is a great resource right because comedians have to put things complex

607
00:50:02,598 --> 00:50:09,898
ideas or very difficult things to comprehend into just the simplest format possible absolutely and

608
00:50:09,898 --> 00:50:16,038
i think comedian is probably the the hardest but most rewarding job in the world it's like

609
00:50:16,038 --> 00:50:20,938
because it's sort of like being an opera singer or a football player you have to be the absolute

610
00:50:20,938 --> 00:50:27,538
best to be good at all like sort of to get anywhere or metal musician for that matter you

611
00:50:27,538 --> 00:50:32,117
sort of have to be the absolute world class if if if it's going to count if it's going to be worth

612
00:50:32,117 --> 00:50:37,137
it at all if it's if you're going to make any money out of it or whatnot or make a career out

613
00:50:37,137 --> 00:50:42,657
of it might be better work but no i can't recommend that book enough it's it's absolutely great

614
00:50:42,657 --> 00:50:49,137
and i've i'm very fascinated with creativity in general and like how to how to tame it because

615
00:50:49,137 --> 00:50:54,298
it's such a strange beast because where do you start with the blank page where does it here's a

616
00:50:54,298 --> 00:51:01,317
question for you like do you actively try to come up with ideas or do they just kind of come to you

617
00:51:01,317 --> 00:51:10,078
and hit you in you know random points of the day a bit of both i'd say i i i do i take shit long

618
00:51:10,078 --> 00:51:19,357
walks i average like around 17 000 steps a day wow and with the goal of clearing your mind so that

619
00:51:19,357 --> 00:51:25,298
that's a big part of it not every day because sometimes i walk with my wife or or with my

620
00:51:25,298 --> 00:51:31,898
brother or whatever so it's not it's different but if i have a book in mind and i'm trying to like

621
00:51:31,898 --> 00:51:38,377
i can sort of feel you know creatively constipated if that's a yes that's a good analogy like i have

622
00:51:38,377 --> 00:51:44,738
to like release something at some point and and then i walk around and try to find ideas that are

623
00:51:44,738 --> 00:51:51,038
good enough to pursue because if they're not good enough to pursue i will i won't get anyway

624
00:51:51,038 --> 00:51:56,157
anywhere i get right this block sort of and this has always been the case and i love these creative

625
00:51:56,157 --> 00:52:02,298
tips from especially from musicians and comedians of how to view this thing and once you start

626
00:52:02,298 --> 00:52:08,137
something like finish what you started like if it's a section of a chapter or if the whole chapter

627
00:52:08,137 --> 00:52:14,438
like churn it out while while you're at it and while while the fire is still burning yes yes

628
00:52:14,438 --> 00:52:20,558
yeah what's it inspiration is perishable so you have to like act on it immediately yeah it's

629
00:52:20,558 --> 00:52:26,357
literally trying to catch lightning in a bottle sometimes and also this trey parker tip and that

630
00:52:26,357 --> 00:52:32,957
is to aim for 95 perfection and not 100 because then you get if you aim for 100 perfection you

631
00:52:32,957 --> 00:52:38,498
lose the momentum and you need the momentum as you said when you were looking back we were luke

632
00:52:38,498 --> 00:52:44,317
and i were re-editing all the older books slightly re-editing them just making them more readable

633
00:52:44,317 --> 00:52:51,038
is still the same content we did quite a big or i did first and then us together quite big rewrite

634
00:52:51,038 --> 00:52:55,518
of the praxeology books it reads more like a textbook now added some chapters and whatnot

635
00:52:55,518 --> 00:53:01,918
and structured it slightly differently and while you do while you do all these things you get better

636
00:53:01,918 --> 00:53:09,357
at at your craft actually so i consider myself a a proper author now and not a proper author was

637
00:53:09,357 --> 00:53:14,857
he wrote the first book they still i mean it was still the first one was still good enough for

638
00:53:14,857 --> 00:53:20,918
michael to recommend it on hope.com but then i'm very proud of that but reading it now it's like

639
00:53:20,918 --> 00:53:25,677
i can do so much better yeah but that's the important point right is that you're iterating

640
00:53:25,677 --> 00:53:29,137
that you can actually do that with a book you're literally upgrading it like software

641
00:53:29,137 --> 00:53:35,238
you're using all the bugs which you know you can't do with a piece of music say or film once

642
00:53:35,238 --> 00:53:39,698
it's out there in the world that's kind of usually it but yeah i think that's important to go back

643
00:53:39,698 --> 00:53:43,898
and try to make it better for the reader because you know you don't know what the lifespan of your

644
00:53:43,898 --> 00:53:50,238
books are going to have no and when directors specifically try to go and redo their movies

645
00:53:50,238 --> 00:53:55,258
like when they inserted 3d effects into the star wars movies for instance it was horrible

646
00:53:55,258 --> 00:54:01,938
like so because and i think that is because a movie or a music project is usually a group of

647
00:54:01,938 --> 00:54:04,817
people that make it magic and not a single person.

648
00:54:05,298 --> 00:54:09,377
And then the single person can think that they are, they're the one who made it magic,

649
00:54:09,477 --> 00:54:10,098
magical.

650
00:54:10,758 --> 00:54:14,898
But for star Wars, for instance, George Lucas would have needed all of his, like,

651
00:54:15,018 --> 00:54:16,518
yes, his entire team.

652
00:54:16,918 --> 00:54:20,398
And they would have had been in the right mindset to make it consistent.

653
00:54:20,398 --> 00:54:25,977
But, and that's why it looks so awful with the, the CGI that he shoehorned into it.

654
00:54:26,438 --> 00:54:30,198
So I think it's different with the book and, and many of my favorite authors, they

655
00:54:30,198 --> 00:54:30,837
worked that way.

656
00:54:30,837 --> 00:54:34,218
They kept on reiterating Mises in particular.

657
00:54:34,218 --> 00:54:40,837
I mean, human action is basically just the culmination of a lifetime of writing about economics.

658
00:54:41,738 --> 00:54:45,477
But Tolkien is another example, I guess.

659
00:54:46,198 --> 00:54:55,058
I mean, he spent years writing about these elves and gnomes and stuff and only finally made a masterpiece out of it.

660
00:54:55,377 --> 00:54:55,558
Yeah.

661
00:54:56,518 --> 00:54:57,117
Yeah.

662
00:54:57,918 --> 00:54:59,258
There's something to that.

663
00:55:00,198 --> 00:55:00,498
Jack?

664
00:55:00,837 --> 00:55:07,498
Cool. This has been a lot of fun, man. It's great to catch up and chat the creative process.

665
00:55:07,918 --> 00:55:10,558
Yeah, I don't get to do that very often. It's very therapeutic.

666
00:55:11,758 --> 00:55:16,957
No, great. I love chatting about it too. And I'm looking forward a lot to reading this book.

667
00:55:17,617 --> 00:55:21,538
And I hope I get to see you at one of the conferences. You say you're not doing very

668
00:55:21,538 --> 00:55:26,317
many this year, and I'm trying to cut down too, but you never know with these things.

669
00:55:26,317 --> 00:55:29,018
All of a sudden, something comes up that you can't say no to.

670
00:55:29,018 --> 00:55:31,718
Exactly. Yep. That's, that's how it works. Yeah.

671
00:55:31,718 --> 00:55:33,218
Whether it's New Year's Eve,

672
00:55:33,277 --> 00:55:36,937
parties or anything else, but we'll see.

673
00:55:36,997 --> 00:55:38,557
We'll see what happens in the future.

674
00:55:38,557 --> 00:55:40,957
And it's a pleasure to know you, man.

675
00:55:40,957 --> 00:55:45,517
And, uh, I wish you all the best and I hope we can do something in the future.

676
00:55:46,077 --> 00:55:46,797
Likewise.

677
00:55:46,837 --> 00:55:47,057
Yeah.

678
00:55:47,057 --> 00:55:49,057
I appreciate our friendship and yeah.

679
00:55:49,237 --> 00:55:51,757
Say hi to Luke for me and look after yourself.

680
00:55:52,837 --> 00:55:53,157
Yeah.

681
00:55:53,337 --> 00:55:57,577
Finally, where, where do you want us to send our listeners on the internet?

682
00:55:57,577 --> 00:55:59,297
Where can, where can they find this book?

683
00:55:59,297 --> 00:56:01,997
Where can they find other stuff, your other stuff?

684
00:56:01,997 --> 00:56:04,037
And is there anywhere else you want to send them?

685
00:56:04,617 --> 00:56:06,377
Yeah, if you just head to my X profile,

686
00:56:06,917 --> 00:56:08,537
and Neil said so, everything's there.

687
00:56:08,757 --> 00:56:09,897
All the links are there.

688
00:56:10,397 --> 00:56:11,837
You can get all my books for free.

689
00:56:12,297 --> 00:56:13,757
You can get all my slide decks for free.

690
00:56:14,197 --> 00:56:16,137
There's an online course that I put together.

691
00:56:16,357 --> 00:56:16,917
It's free.

692
00:56:17,837 --> 00:56:20,997
So yeah, head there if you want any of the resources.

693
00:56:22,057 --> 00:56:24,457
And if I remember correctly,

694
00:56:24,457 --> 00:56:26,477
you encourage people to use your slides

695
00:56:26,477 --> 00:56:28,357
in their own presentations, right?

696
00:56:28,917 --> 00:56:43,782
Yeah if you giving a talk at a meetup or a conference or you even just teaching your friends and family at home yeah hopefully I got enough slide decks now that there be one that might be useful for the audience that you speaking to

697
00:56:44,442 --> 00:56:45,762
Just kind of makes your life a bit easier.

698
00:56:46,502 --> 00:56:51,742
Yeah, and I bet if you've been to a Bitcoin conference, regardless if Anil was there or not,

699
00:56:51,742 --> 00:56:55,502
You've probably seen one of these at some talk somewhere because they're

700
00:56:55,702 --> 00:56:58,822
frequently used by other Bitcoiners and for a good reason.

701
00:56:59,222 --> 00:57:00,622
Yeah. Cheers.

702
00:57:00,622 --> 00:57:04,102
Yeah. So check out Anil's book and other content.

703
00:57:04,102 --> 00:57:07,062
And Anil, it's a giant pleasure.

704
00:57:07,062 --> 00:57:09,582
Namaste. And thank you for being here.

705
00:57:09,622 --> 00:57:12,102
And until we meet again and the case is solved.

706
00:57:12,582 --> 00:57:14,222
Yeah. Cheers, Knud. Thanks for the chat.

707
00:57:15,302 --> 00:57:18,102
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Thanks for listening.

708
00:57:21,742 --> 00:57:51,722
Thank you.