Supporting the Lightning Network with Henrik Skogstrøm

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basically if you're any type of company that touches the Lightning Network

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directly through a node, then you need to be able to manage that node and

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you need to have systems around it.

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So that can be anything from seeing which channels you have, how many

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payments have gone out or in, you yeah, opening and closing channels,

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it can be even just account systems.

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So if you have customers that have different balances that you hold for

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them, you need to keep track of that.

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Um, and.

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Torque helps you do a lot of these things.

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Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint Show.

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The Bitcoin Philosophy Show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn.

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Today we're joined by Henrik Skogström, founder of TORQ, formerly LN Capital,

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to talk about the Lightning Network.

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We learn a lot about how Lightning works, the things Lightning companies need to do

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to keep the experience seamless for users, and how TORQ can help with all that.

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But before we jump in, I'll quickly cover how you can support the show.

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All our links are in the description.

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And finally, we want to thank today's sponsors, Amber App, Wasabi Wallet, Orange

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Pill App, The Bitcoin Way, and Geyser.

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All their information is in the description.

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We'll be talking a bit more about them later.

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And now, without further ado, here is Henrik Skogström on

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the Freedom Footprint show.

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Henrik, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show.

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Thanks for joining us.

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Thank you for having me.

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Yeah.

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Welcome Hendrik.

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I can give a TLDR on, on how we got connected because this is, this is

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sort of a in real life connection story via orange pill app, a shout out

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so, so, uh, yeah, we, we met at a, uh, we didn't meet, but.

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I met somebody who works with your, your company Torque, in a, in a

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live event, uh, orange pill app event, uh, in Tampere, Finland.

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And, uh, we were at a sauna, party and, uh, And then, uh, yeah, we found out

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that there's a connection between, uh, yourself and, uh, and Finland and, uh,

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got to talking that it would be, uh, nice to get you on our show and, uh, hear

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about everything you're doing with the Lightning Network because we, we have

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not had anyone who is a Lightning expert.

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In any real respect, come onto the show and talk to us.

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So yeah, welcome Henrik, and let's maybe start off with an introduction

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to yourself and the work that you do.

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Yeah, great.

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Uh, again, thanks for having me.

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And, uh, yeah, cool connection, uh, through, uh, Yoho there.

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Um, yeah, so introduction, uh, of me, I've, I've been working in the

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lighting industry since, uh, 2019.

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Um, maybe start with, my name is Henrik Skogström, uh, and, uh, we, um, Yeah,

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we, at Torque, we're building sort of this, um, management, lightning

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management platform for enterprises.

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Uh, so we've been really deep into how lightning works and different

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implementations for almost two years now.

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Uh, and it's been a ton of fun.

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So, um, hopefully we can dive into something, uh, some of

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the evolution there as well.

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yeah, I've been using the Lightning Network since 2019 and I'm just baffled

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by how people are so ignorant about it and don't know about it and how awesome it is.

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Uh, so, so, but, but as, as I understand it, like most people use

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custodial lightning, uh, lightning.

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And I'm guilty as charged most of the time myself, uh, because I usually

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just use a custodial service and then put it into cold storage later.

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Could you give us an explanation of that and how, how the network, what

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the network looks like at this point, like how, uh, non custodial is it

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and, uh, what are the trade offs?

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Yeah, sure.

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So, I think it's important to remember when you need true self custody

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custody and in what scenarios.

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The dream world is that everybody has 100 percent control of absolutely

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all their money at all times, right?

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Um, but at the same time, if you have a wallet with a hundred dollars in it.

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It's not the end of the world if somebody rugs that one.

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It's of course bad to have sort of a situation where either a company can rug

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you or some hacker can get access to it, but There is this balance to, to reach.

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So what we're seeing currently is that there are major providers that are like

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Vault of Satoshi and, and these that are custodial that a lot of people are using.

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Um, But we're also seeing an increase in, um, self custodial

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wallets like Breeze, for example.

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Um, and in these cases, they're very often paired with, um, large LSP nodes.

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And both of these types of companies and wallets have the effect of...

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Gathering up a lot of liquidity in certain nodes, um, and that is

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by some seen as centralization.

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Um, the reality is more that it's centralization of capacity

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or capital to some places, and it's quite natural because if you

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have, if you're an individual, you don't need 20, 000 on your node.

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Um, but a business or an LSP or wall provider definitely needs more than that.

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So that is sort of some of the effect we're seeing.

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I

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Okay.

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So, uh, um, so can you give us a, uh, for, for those of our listeners

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who don't know how lightning works, because it's kind of complicated.

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Is there a, a quick way of explaining what the lightning network is and how it works?

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Yeah, um, so the Lightning Network is a scaling solution for Bitcoin.

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So what it, the way it scales Bitcoin is that you do one Bitcoin transaction

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to open what we call a channel.

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And through that channel, you can send as many transactions as you want.

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Basically, what you're doing is just asking the other party and yourself

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to update a contract between yourself.

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about how much Bitcoin each side has and that contract is basically just a

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potential normal Bitcoin transaction.

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Um, and since this doesn't have to be broadcast to the world, you can do that as

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many times you want, as fast as you want.

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Um, and of course don't impact everybody else.

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Bitcoin

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transactions.

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Um, the second effect there is that You can have a challenge with multiple

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parties and I can ask somebody, I can send money to somebody I'm not

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directly connected to because I can ask different hops or different node

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operators that I have a challenge with to relay a transaction through them.

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And this, of course, is always done without any form of trust

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involved in that transaction.

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Uh, so that might not have been as, uh, short and straightforward

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as it could be, but that's sort of a very short explanation of what

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Lightning is and how it works.

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Yeah, don't worry.

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I think most of our listeners have some understanding of this stuff.

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So, uh, the.

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The thing I'm curious about is like, uh, the regulations that are popping up in

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different jurisdictions around Bitcoin.

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Uh, could you make, like, a legal case for Lightning not being anything but

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mathematics, and thereby, like, since, since it doesn't ever have to touch

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The base chain, really, you could just call it messages between people.

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And maybe, do you know of any anyone that's trying to

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lobby a politician or like,

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some lawmaker around in these areas?

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Because like, to me, you know, money should be under free speech laws

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that should like, I do not care what you pay, but you will fight to

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the death for your right to pay it.

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Um, Because what bitcoins obviously has pointed out to everyone is that money

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really is nothing but information.

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And money ness is more of an adjective than a noun and all of this philosophical

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stuff that we touch on often in this show.

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Um, but lightning is a special case.

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I mean, you, you could make a good legal case for lightning

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transactions, not being transactions at all, but just messages, right?

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Yeah, it's a very interesting question, I guess.

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So, I talked to some lawyers about this recently, and I think, it

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depends on what each country thinks related to money transferring laws.

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But I very much agree with the philosophical thought of

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it being just communication.

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Um, Or language, because yeah, you, you move, like moving money is

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essentially saying I value this thing.

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Um, I'm no legal expert, but it's, it's something where the power of it is so big

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that it should be a fundamental right we have as humans to be able to transact.

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Yeah, given that we have such a high degree of, uh, like everything is digital

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around us, being able to pay online or digitally is becoming so important

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that it should be a basic human right.

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And, uh, yeah, lightning is a tool to, to make that possibility because

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right now finance is, or payments is a very permission, um, based

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system where certain parts of, um, The globe can't access that system.

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So yeah, philosophically, that's a really interesting topic.

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Henrik.

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Yeah, uh, to my knowledge, like, each lightning node does not know, uh,

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where the, it knows the, what node the transaction comes from and where it's

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going to, but it does not know how long the chain is, and it does not know

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how, uh, what the final destination is or where it came from originally.

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So, so, uh, How private is a Lightning transaction?

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Like, I mean, obviously it's less private if you're using a custodian,

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but how private is it if you're doing it properly, so to speak?

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So yeah, a custodian will see, of course, who you are, if they're doing KYC, and

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they will see who you're sending it to.

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If you're not Using a custodian, you're 100 percent generating invoices and

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paying invoices on your own device.

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That can be sort of something like Breeze or it can be a wallet.

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Then it is, um, then it is very private.

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The hops in between don't see, as you said, they don't see what the length

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are, where the payment is actually going.

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If you're the first hop or so the payment is coming from you or not.

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Um, and this again has some interesting effects on the legal

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systems, uh, for larger financial institutions and different, um, uh,

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payment providers, uh, out there.

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So, but other than that, other than sort of the routing, this

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is like paying with cash again.

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It is like you.

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You sort of pay with cash right through your mobile or,

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or, um, uh, computer screen.

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Uh, so in that sense, it's back to a very basic and known element that we have.

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All right, so, uh, Lightning is known as a layer two solution to Bitcoin

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because layer one is viewed as the, uh, the base chain is viewed as layer one.

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I would say that layer zero is the people involved or are the people

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involved, uh, that because there's no layer one without, without the people.

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So, uh, Is there, is there a layer three coming and what would that be in your, in

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your mind with like, what, what problem does it even solve when we already

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have lightning, like, is there a layer on top of this coming in the future?

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And what would that look like?

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I mean, it's, um, at definition, I don't know, like there's applications,

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of course, on top of Lightning.

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And then we have, uh, I guess layering is the sort of protocols

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doing something different.

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I mean, um.

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Separate assets and something like that could be considered a layer three

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where we use Lightning as the transport layer and then we use some other

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protocol to have some other meaning to those transactions on top of it.

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So that can be considered a layer three to add more functionality that

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isn't possible on Lightning itself.

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Um, scalability wise.

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I don't, yeah, it's, it's not something I think would be adding a third

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layer for scalability again, right?

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Lightning pretty much solves that.

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Okay, so what is, what is torque?

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Like, what do you do at torque?

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Well, what is the, what is torque?

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Yeah, so basically if you're any type of company that touches the Lightning

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Network directly through a node, then you need to be able to manage that node

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and you need to have systems around it.

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So that can be anything from seeing which channels you have, how many

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payments have gone out or in, you know.

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Um, um, yeah, opening and closing channels, it can be

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even just account systems.

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So if you have customers that have different balances that you hold for

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them, you need to keep track of that.

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Um, and all these sort of different aspects of interacting

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on the Lightning Network.

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and.

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Torque helps you do a lot of these things.

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I mean, constantly expanding and adding modules to Torque.

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But right now, the modules we have is that we help you collect

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data about all the traffic and everything going on with your node.

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We then help you open and close channels, for example, either

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manually or automatically.

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We'll let you see all that data, so you can interact and analyze

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everything that's going on.

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Um, we also have the ability to manage multiple nodes.

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And this is important because a lot of the enterprises around, uh, today, they have

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multiple nodes for redundancy reasons and for special, um, specializing the traffic.

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Um, so for example, you can have, uh, two nodes.

233
00:14:56,918 --> 00:15:00,858
One is mainly sending data or sending transactions out and one

234
00:15:00,858 --> 00:15:02,638
is mainly receiving payments.

235
00:15:03,138 --> 00:15:04,548
And then you have redundancies.

236
00:15:04,588 --> 00:15:06,868
You might have four because you have two of each.

237
00:15:07,868 --> 00:15:10,838
And this sort of increased the entire complexity of the operation, of course.

238
00:15:11,003 --> 00:15:16,913
so Because the complexity is increasing as you add more nodes and you have more

239
00:15:17,603 --> 00:15:22,643
channels, you have more transactions and things going on in your operation,

240
00:15:23,783 --> 00:15:28,213
this gets ever more complex and harder and harder to manage and build.

241
00:15:28,243 --> 00:15:35,053
So what we provide is a platform for operators to work off of so that they

242
00:15:35,053 --> 00:15:39,698
don't have to, um, Uh, build everything from scratch and they can rather build

243
00:15:39,698 --> 00:15:44,008
the systems and the end user experience that their user care about and not

244
00:15:44,038 --> 00:15:45,308
sort of know the management stuff.

245
00:15:45,870 --> 00:15:48,960
you got to remember that, for example, if you're a payment processor or your

246
00:15:48,970 --> 00:15:53,310
wallet, your customers don't care at all about how it works in the background.

247
00:15:53,750 --> 00:15:56,330
They just want a really cool user experience, they want an

248
00:15:56,340 --> 00:15:58,360
API, they want a smooth wallet.

249
00:15:59,170 --> 00:16:03,150
So, there's a limit to what you really want to spend an energy

250
00:16:03,150 --> 00:16:04,550
on building stuff yourself.

251
00:16:04,590 --> 00:16:11,070
So, what we do is we provide a set of modules that help these companies operate.

252
00:16:11,170 --> 00:16:15,220
For example, it allows you to collect data about everything that's happening.

253
00:16:15,735 --> 00:16:22,045
You can, uh, inspect channels, you can, uh, automate, uh, or

254
00:16:22,055 --> 00:16:23,855
manually open and close channels.

255
00:16:24,575 --> 00:16:28,945
Um, you can also manage multiple nodes, and this is especially when

256
00:16:28,945 --> 00:16:35,375
the, um, as the operation grows, you can see that you have, um, For

257
00:16:35,375 --> 00:16:39,615
example, um, two or four nodes.

258
00:16:40,035 --> 00:16:43,905
And the reason for this is that the traffic is so big that you want to

259
00:16:43,965 --> 00:16:49,065
specialize the node activity and you want to have redundancy in your operation.

260
00:16:50,705 --> 00:16:58,055
So in short, you can use Torque to simplify and use Torque instead of

261
00:16:58,065 --> 00:17:01,505
building your own tooling and simplify your organization in that way.

262
00:17:02,003 --> 00:17:02,503
All right.

263
00:17:03,073 --> 00:17:04,953
Luke, is there anything on your mind?

264
00:17:05,308 --> 00:17:05,888
Well, sure.

265
00:17:05,888 --> 00:17:06,238
Yeah.

266
00:17:06,298 --> 00:17:11,438
So, so I think, um, lightning from the perspective of, yeah.

267
00:17:11,963 --> 00:17:16,993
What it actually does for Bitcoin, I think this is a, this is a bit of a deep thing

268
00:17:17,003 --> 00:17:24,153
because, uh, we, we tend to try to avoid any mention of shitcoins here on the show,

269
00:17:24,153 --> 00:17:30,423
and I'm not going to mention any by name, but the general idea is that there is so

270
00:17:30,423 --> 00:17:34,843
called quote unquote blockchain technology that can beat Bitcoin in the future.

271
00:17:35,593 --> 00:17:39,723
Specifically the level of fast payments and that's kind of the idea here and

272
00:17:39,723 --> 00:17:44,533
so um, maybe something about um, what I'm trying to get at here is do you

273
00:17:44,533 --> 00:17:50,743
have any, any feelings on what is the real value of lightning to bitcoin?

274
00:17:52,143 --> 00:17:53,043
Is it working?

275
00:17:53,043 --> 00:17:59,253
Is it, is it actually helping bitcoin to do what everyone hopes it will do?

276
00:18:00,648 --> 00:18:01,588
Yeah, definitely.

277
00:18:01,588 --> 00:18:04,668
And I've done large payments on Lightning as well.

278
00:18:04,708 --> 00:18:10,428
And especially for something that we use payments for every day, um,

279
00:18:10,478 --> 00:18:15,358
up to a thousand dollars, there's everything, regardless of self

280
00:18:15,358 --> 00:18:16,968
hosted or not works really well.

281
00:18:17,508 --> 00:18:22,988
Um, the, the interesting thing there versus a lot of other coins where

282
00:18:22,988 --> 00:18:26,458
they're talking about transaction volume and speed and all that is that

283
00:18:27,918 --> 00:18:30,718
Lightning settles less than a second.

284
00:18:30,888 --> 00:18:31,378
And.

285
00:18:31,913 --> 00:18:34,173
The, the way it scales is, uh.

286
00:18:36,098 --> 00:18:38,068
is in a way that's super efficient.

287
00:18:38,618 --> 00:18:40,948
So when you look at a lot of other coins, what they're talking

288
00:18:40,948 --> 00:18:45,818
about is that they, um, they increase the number of transactions

289
00:18:45,818 --> 00:18:49,108
possible, um, by a few methods.

290
00:18:49,108 --> 00:18:54,188
One is just increasing the, the speed of the, the block creation, or they

291
00:18:54,188 --> 00:18:56,068
just, uh, increase the block size.

292
00:18:56,148 --> 00:19:00,098
And when you think about that, it It is a solution where they then just

293
00:19:00,258 --> 00:19:02,388
not talk about what happens over time.

294
00:19:02,848 --> 00:19:06,328
There's a lot of different, um, problems that arise from that.

295
00:19:06,348 --> 00:19:09,928
One is just that the block size, um, creates an intense, insanely

296
00:19:10,658 --> 00:19:15,298
large, um, um, blockchain over time.

297
00:19:16,158 --> 00:19:23,438
And that's where I think we in Bitcoin and in Lightning is much more honest about

298
00:19:23,448 --> 00:19:29,258
what are the challenges in Lightning today and what are, how does it scale, um, in

299
00:19:29,258 --> 00:19:34,408
what areas do we need to improve, uh, and all of these things, uh, rather than

300
00:19:34,408 --> 00:19:36,598
just saying, okay, we, we have sold it.

301
00:19:36,608 --> 00:19:38,278
Everything is fantastic.

302
00:19:38,388 --> 00:19:39,768
Uh, it will work forever.

303
00:19:40,428 --> 00:19:43,458
Um, we address sort of these problems and, and work on them.

304
00:19:43,975 --> 00:19:45,985
Okay, we have some big news.

305
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306
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307
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308
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309
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310
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311
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312
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313
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314
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315
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316
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317
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318
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319
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320
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321
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322
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323
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325
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326
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327
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328
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329
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330
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331
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332
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333
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334
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335
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So how did you discover Bitcoin?

336
00:21:15,041 --> 00:21:17,421
Like what was your orange pilling journey?

337
00:21:17,421 --> 00:21:20,001
Like when, when did you get orange pilled and how?

338
00:21:20,928 --> 00:21:21,888
Yeah, it's interesting.

339
00:21:21,888 --> 00:21:26,748
I, I went through a route I think a lot of Bitcoins do with sort of the Bitcoin route

340
00:21:27,378 --> 00:21:34,478
where, um, I, I got into it, um, basically because I was interested in currency

341
00:21:34,483 --> 00:21:39,878
trading originally and discovered that maybe there's a interesting way to trade.

342
00:21:40,488 --> 00:21:45,798
And make money, uh, through arbitrage or momentum trading, uh, with, uh, bots.

343
00:21:46,478 --> 00:21:50,738
So I started playing around with that, a ton of different coins and got swept

344
00:21:50,738 --> 00:21:53,468
up in all that in 2017 especially.

345
00:21:54,058 --> 00:21:56,068
And, uh, went through the entire crash.

346
00:21:56,278 --> 00:22:00,298
And I think there's a small percentage each time who then's like what happened

347
00:22:00,448 --> 00:22:05,248
and realize that, oh, I should just bin at Bitcoin the entire time and get into that.

348
00:22:05,248 --> 00:22:08,488
And then I started really learning how Bitcoin converts, how.

349
00:22:09,253 --> 00:22:11,663
When I discovered Lightning, it was like, okay, game over.

350
00:22:11,723 --> 00:22:13,023
The other stuff is just BS.

351
00:22:13,193 --> 00:22:14,533
Uh, let's dive into this.

352
00:22:15,213 --> 00:22:19,143
Uh, and I've been working, um, really diving into Lightning after that.

353
00:22:20,653 --> 00:22:25,513
Um, where is, where are you on the, uh, sound money journey, like on,

354
00:22:25,513 --> 00:22:29,983
on the ethos of Bitcoin journey and the like, uh, on the, on the more

355
00:22:29,983 --> 00:22:32,983
philosophical prax logical side?

356
00:22:32,983 --> 00:22:37,393
Like what, what have you views on, uh, hyper colonization, for instance?

357
00:22:37,393 --> 00:22:39,913
Do you think that's a likely scenario?

358
00:22:39,913 --> 00:22:43,723
And, uh, if so, when and what does, what does it mean to you?

359
00:22:45,513 --> 00:22:47,393
Yeah, it's a very interesting topic.

360
00:22:47,493 --> 00:22:52,713
I think, I think I might be a bit unconventional Bitcoiner in that area.

361
00:22:52,723 --> 00:22:53,313
I think.

362
00:22:54,288 --> 00:22:58,678
If we see hyperbitcoinization in next year, then the world is in so much

363
00:22:58,678 --> 00:23:02,548
trouble that it's time to get your, your shotgun and guard your door.

364
00:23:03,728 --> 00:23:04,578
And the reason is

365
00:23:04,953 --> 00:23:05,763
that the case?

366
00:23:05,763 --> 00:23:10,323
Uh, if, if we're, if we don't get into hyper ization also though,

367
00:23:11,078 --> 00:23:13,298
yeah, I think there's going to be suffering either way.

368
00:23:13,518 --> 00:23:14,158
That's my point.

369
00:23:14,228 --> 00:23:21,303
I think where, um, We're in such a trouble, we're in such big trouble

370
00:23:21,333 --> 00:23:25,673
with the debt that we're in that there is no smooth way out of it.

371
00:23:26,343 --> 00:23:30,903
So essentially, if you stop all lending, and you go into hyperbitcoinization,

372
00:23:30,913 --> 00:23:37,373
and everybody just uses that, we're quickly into a situation where, um,

373
00:23:37,383 --> 00:23:42,637
so if everybody switches over to, um, to Bitcoin today, we're getting into a

374
00:23:42,637 --> 00:23:48,662
situation where I think the economy is going to go through a heavy, heavy crash.

375
00:23:48,662 --> 00:23:57,022
So even the housing market, for example, so I hope we transition

376
00:23:57,022 --> 00:23:58,392
there a bit more peacefully.

377
00:23:59,692 --> 00:24:03,532
yeah, you're, uh, I'm guessing your, your thoughts and your, um,

378
00:24:03,572 --> 00:24:05,412
idea on it is, is a bit different.

379
00:24:05,422 --> 00:24:06,982
And this is something I love to discuss.

380
00:24:07,887 --> 00:24:10,537
The different points of view in this, and I'm guessing that's what you've

381
00:24:10,537 --> 00:24:12,327
been doing a lot on the show so far.

382
00:24:12,518 --> 00:24:12,728
Yeah.

383
00:24:12,733 --> 00:24:15,398
Well, we're, we're, we're sort of on the philosophical side.

384
00:24:15,398 --> 00:24:19,658
I mean, we, we try to envision what, what, what this means and what it

385
00:24:19,663 --> 00:24:25,433
is and, uh, where, where the vectors are pointing and, uh, I always like

386
00:24:25,433 --> 00:24:30,173
to, to like, to try to extrapolate, extrapolate the, uh, thought vector as

387
00:24:30,173 --> 00:24:35,083
far ahead into the future and possible as possible and see, see where I end up.

388
00:24:35,088 --> 00:24:40,483
And it's, it's kind of hard to see anything but hyper ization happening

389
00:24:40,483 --> 00:24:42,493
given that everything else is crashing.

390
00:24:43,063 --> 00:24:45,703
Um, I mean, where else?

391
00:24:46,498 --> 00:24:47,838
Are the money supposed to go?

392
00:24:47,838 --> 00:24:55,318
I just don't see how in a, in a hyper interneted world that the, the, the

393
00:24:55,318 --> 00:24:59,678
money could go anywhere else than Bitcoin because it's the only stable thing left.

394
00:25:00,555 --> 00:25:00,875
Yeah.

395
00:25:00,875 --> 00:25:03,255
And that's a, that's a very good point.

396
00:25:03,295 --> 00:25:07,925
Um, most likely it becomes, um, over time it becomes the base,

397
00:25:08,155 --> 00:25:13,495
uh, value where we store value and perhaps also settle value across,

398
00:25:13,765 --> 00:25:16,275
uh, countries and larger operations.

399
00:25:17,085 --> 00:25:18,495
Um, definitely.

400
00:25:18,635 --> 00:25:25,000
Um, I guess it depends a bit on what, what you mean with hyperbitcoinization is if

401
00:25:25,300 --> 00:25:30,100
absolutely every other currency becomes Bitcoin and we only transact in Bitcoin,

402
00:25:30,590 --> 00:25:36,510
uh, and we eliminate all debt, that is, um, that is a different scenarios scenario

403
00:25:36,540 --> 00:25:41,690
than, for example, we don't limit debt and we, um, we have some other, uh, credit

404
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:48,057
based systems around things, uh, to, um, to use as, um, um, Uh, in some cases,

405
00:25:48,177 --> 00:25:54,387
efficiency gains, but, um, yeah, it's, it's just, I feel like the world is just

406
00:25:54,477 --> 00:26:01,477
so far out of balance today that how that is used around the world is quite crazy.

407
00:26:02,017 --> 00:26:03,877
Um, but then again, I'm not an economic,

408
00:26:04,697 --> 00:26:09,292
no, uh, I mean, um, Uh, there can still be debt on a, on a

409
00:26:09,292 --> 00:26:10,572
Bitcoin standard, of course.

410
00:26:10,652 --> 00:26:16,652
Uh, it's just that the interest rates will better reflect what the lender and

411
00:26:16,652 --> 00:26:20,632
the, and the receiver actually agree upon.

412
00:26:20,722 --> 00:26:23,452
And we won't have these artificial things.

413
00:26:23,832 --> 00:26:27,452
I mean, there's, there's always a market for lower interest rates.

414
00:26:27,762 --> 00:26:33,337
I mean, It's basically a bet on, on the future, like, it's better to

415
00:26:33,337 --> 00:26:34,797
have money now than in the future.

416
00:26:34,827 --> 00:26:36,547
So, so that's where interest comes from.

417
00:26:36,547 --> 00:26:41,067
It's just that, and the free market should be able to, to figure out

418
00:26:41,067 --> 00:26:44,037
the correct interest rate by itself.

419
00:26:44,037 --> 00:26:48,007
It's just that it's been so manipulated at this point that it's not.

420
00:26:48,237 --> 00:26:52,127
It's just weird, like negative interest rates, for instance, it should make

421
00:26:52,137 --> 00:26:57,707
everyone like buy that shotgun and hide up in a cabin somewhere or leave the country

422
00:26:57,707 --> 00:27:00,977
because it's, it's, uh, just not possible.

423
00:27:01,617 --> 00:27:05,807
Uh, that word in itself, in my mind, should, should make people

424
00:27:07,017 --> 00:27:10,987
really scared because that's like the ultimate testament to that.

425
00:27:11,077 --> 00:27:12,107
You're being played.

426
00:27:12,317 --> 00:27:16,907
You're, you're being, you're, you're caught in a system that is using you.

427
00:27:17,627 --> 00:27:22,857
yeah, it's, um, it's definitely not as straightforward anymore as it

428
00:27:22,867 --> 00:27:25,677
was, uh, once, uh, once upon a time.

429
00:27:28,102 --> 00:27:34,612
Yeah, I, I think Bitcoin is a tool that can be used for a lot of good, it can be

430
00:27:34,612 --> 00:27:40,162
used in, uh, to fix a lot of systems, but there's another side of it, which I think

431
00:27:40,162 --> 00:27:43,962
a lot of Bitcoiners don't talk too much about, and that basically is the power

432
00:27:43,962 --> 00:27:49,882
of money in the, in the direct sense, uh, where if you have a lot of money, even

433
00:27:49,882 --> 00:27:55,837
if you have a lot of Bitcoin, you can use that as a tool to influence others to do

434
00:27:55,837 --> 00:27:57,777
things they basically don't want to do.

435
00:27:58,507 --> 00:28:02,597
Um, so of course, just doing work is one thing, but you mostly are happy

436
00:28:02,637 --> 00:28:04,117
to do work in order to get paid.

437
00:28:04,127 --> 00:28:06,967
But there's situation where you can pressure people to the point

438
00:28:06,977 --> 00:28:08,507
where, yeah, they're still working.

439
00:28:08,617 --> 00:28:09,877
They're still getting a salary.

440
00:28:10,392 --> 00:28:13,962
But that's the only option they have and the salary is not enough to live off.

441
00:28:14,292 --> 00:28:16,692
We don't really get rid of that problem still with Bitcoin.

442
00:28:17,232 --> 00:28:24,092
There's still going to be massive, massive, um, difference in, um,

443
00:28:25,022 --> 00:28:28,622
uh, in income around the world and, and power through that.

444
00:28:29,472 --> 00:28:32,512
And I think that's a problem that we don't address with Bitcoin and that we

445
00:28:32,642 --> 00:28:37,642
should be very aware of both in society today and in the future Bitcoin world.

446
00:28:39,867 --> 00:28:41,427
So, how is the climate at TORC?

447
00:28:41,437 --> 00:28:45,287
Like, do you discuss these philosophical stuff in the office, or

448
00:28:45,517 --> 00:28:47,127
wherever, if you even have an office?

449
00:28:47,127 --> 00:28:52,337
I guess you're mostly online, but do you discuss these things,

450
00:28:52,337 --> 00:28:55,497
or like, what's going on there?

451
00:28:56,412 --> 00:29:01,632
Yeah, um, we, we do once in a while, but we're also very tech focused,

452
00:29:01,802 --> 00:29:06,312
uh, and love sort of diving into how Lightning works and what it does.

453
00:29:06,992 --> 00:29:10,042
Um, but we certainly discuss it once in a while.

454
00:29:10,512 --> 00:29:12,652
Um, but yeah, we don't have a, a office.

455
00:29:12,652 --> 00:29:16,522
We're working completely remote, um, which changes the dynamic a bit, I guess.

456
00:29:17,218 --> 00:29:21,668
Yeah, from your accent, you're, you're from, uh, the space cat planet, right?

457
00:29:21,748 --> 00:29:23,568
Like, uh, but, but you're not an astronaut.

458
00:29:23,608 --> 00:29:25,808
So, so, uh, it must be Norway.

459
00:29:26,698 --> 00:29:27,498
Yeah, definitely.

460
00:29:27,698 --> 00:29:31,618
One of the guys in the team, they usually have like a space background.

461
00:29:31,798 --> 00:29:33,758
So bit in space.

462
00:29:34,530 --> 00:29:35,010
There you go.

463
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,060
How is everything going in Norway, by the way, if that's

464
00:29:39,060 --> 00:29:40,410
where you're actually based?

465
00:29:40,420 --> 00:29:43,770
Because I mean, you can't actually tell by where someone is from

466
00:29:43,780 --> 00:29:45,080
originally where they actually are.

467
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:45,630
But anyway,

468
00:29:46,265 --> 00:29:50,625
Yeah, no, I, uh, I'm born and raised in Oslo and still live in Oslo.

469
00:29:50,675 --> 00:29:52,705
So I never got out anywhere, I guess.

470
00:29:53,575 --> 00:29:54,425
Traveled a bit though.

471
00:29:54,475 --> 00:29:55,005
So that's good.

472
00:29:55,405 --> 00:30:00,735
But, uh, um, here, uh, I mean, that's, that's one of the things where I'm.

473
00:30:01,232 --> 00:30:07,759
not too interested in, I guess, in the politics, uh, in Norway and how things

474
00:30:07,769 --> 00:30:12,859
are evolving there and a bit of that is that it's so stable, so it might be very

475
00:30:12,859 --> 00:30:17,839
dark clouds on the horizon, but for, I guess, most people living in Norway,

476
00:30:18,429 --> 00:30:24,624
the so Economic situation is, is quite stable, uh, prices are, of course, going

477
00:30:24,624 --> 00:30:30,964
up, uh, there is inflation, um, there is, of course, one of the only ways to

478
00:30:30,964 --> 00:30:35,654
get out of the, the inflation we are in is that the regular people suffer.

479
00:30:36,004 --> 00:30:39,034
And I think people are starting to notice that, that they have less

480
00:30:39,064 --> 00:30:43,214
money, prices on everything is going up, especially the stuff that...

481
00:30:43,539 --> 00:30:47,329
isn't in the inflation numbers, like just groceries, right?

482
00:30:47,939 --> 00:30:51,509
Um, so, um, it's going to be interesting in the next few

483
00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:55,139
years when this sort of starts to stress the economy more and more.

484
00:30:55,605 --> 00:30:58,580
Yeah, the same thing is happening in Sweden, where the...

485
00:30:58,700 --> 00:31:06,120
The both the Kronos are losing value fast and it's pretty sad to see because

486
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:11,090
most of the populations don't seem to realize what's going on, which is often

487
00:31:11,090 --> 00:31:13,490
the case when inflation hits hard.

488
00:31:14,190 --> 00:31:18,860
No one seems to be able to pierce the veil and see what's going on.

489
00:31:18,950 --> 00:31:23,050
But you know, the pay no attention to the men behind the curtain type thing.

490
00:31:23,755 --> 00:31:27,295
Uh, they're waving with one hand to make you not focus on the other.

491
00:31:27,925 --> 00:31:32,115
Um, do, do you know our friend Rune Østgaard by, by any chance?

492
00:31:32,415 --> 00:31:37,645
Another Norwegian, uh, recently came out with a book called Fraud Coin.

493
00:31:39,445 --> 00:31:41,975
Ah, yeah, yeah, I listened to his presentation on one

494
00:31:41,975 --> 00:31:44,135
of the local, um, meetups.

495
00:31:44,795 --> 00:31:46,965
Um, that was, that was great.

496
00:31:48,205 --> 00:31:52,545
Yeah, he has some great takes on, uh, on, uh, the situation in Norway

497
00:31:52,545 --> 00:31:56,975
and Norwegian politics is, uh, very active on Twitter and, uh, everyone

498
00:31:56,975 --> 00:31:58,335
should follow Rune, he's great.

499
00:31:59,635 --> 00:32:04,405
an aggressive Trønders separatist, which is interesting, but he's a fun guy.

500
00:32:04,955 --> 00:32:05,905
An aggressive what?

501
00:32:07,585 --> 00:32:10,475
He's advocated for the independence of Trøndelag.

502
00:32:10,475 --> 00:32:13,465
I don't, I don't know how serious he's actually being, but yeah.

503
00:32:13,815 --> 00:32:16,735
Yeah, I think that's a bit, um, humor in there.

504
00:32:17,665 --> 00:32:22,595
Yeah, uh, then again, um, it's the separation, the separation of

505
00:32:22,605 --> 00:32:25,635
money and state is the separation of everyone and state in the end.

506
00:32:25,645 --> 00:32:29,945
So like, so, so, uh, the smaller, the better.

507
00:32:30,065 --> 00:32:34,635
Like, uh, As long as we can still trade between the cantons,

508
00:32:34,935 --> 00:32:36,475
uh, we're fine, I guess.

509
00:32:38,010 --> 00:32:40,150
Every single farm out there is by zone.

510
00:32:41,730 --> 00:32:47,240
There's balance in these things again, I think, but it's, um, it's interesting

511
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:52,980
to see, uh, that effect in, in the difference between the U S and Norway and,

512
00:32:52,990 --> 00:32:55,360
um, different how the starting point is.

513
00:32:57,925 --> 00:33:03,585
And I think the, um, the effect that you talked about earlier, people not

514
00:33:03,615 --> 00:33:07,935
noticing, I think this is something that's a bit scary for Norway and, uh,

515
00:33:07,945 --> 00:33:12,825
all countries basically is that some of these effects are, they're coming

516
00:33:12,845 --> 00:33:14,805
over time and they're quite subtle.

517
00:33:15,015 --> 00:33:16,105
They're hard to understand.

518
00:33:16,105 --> 00:33:19,005
And I think a lot of people are getting more and more frustrated.

519
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,700
Because they feel like they're getting screwed in some way.

520
00:33:21,710 --> 00:33:25,220
They don't know the source of it and they start to blame everything

521
00:33:25,230 --> 00:33:29,880
around them in different directions and just frustration, uh, increases.

522
00:33:30,060 --> 00:33:36,300
Um, I think this is a bit behind the political, um, climate in, in the US.

523
00:33:36,490 --> 00:33:42,230
Uh, I'm not into politics, uh, the US, uh, at a level where I should discuss this,

524
00:33:42,270 --> 00:33:47,980
but it feels a bit like they're so much further ahead in that frustration than

525
00:33:47,990 --> 00:33:49,600
many other countries are at this point.

526
00:33:50,059 --> 00:33:54,449
Yeah, uh, given the video clips we see on social media over here

527
00:33:54,449 --> 00:33:58,879
about, uh, grocery prices being completely bonkers over there.

528
00:33:59,299 --> 00:34:02,989
But, uh, yeah, we're, we're headed, we're on the same path.

529
00:34:03,169 --> 00:34:05,349
And, uh, yeah, people should know this.

530
00:34:05,349 --> 00:34:07,239
Inflation is not a natural thing.

531
00:34:07,359 --> 00:34:13,049
It, it comes from some people in society being allowed to

532
00:34:13,049 --> 00:34:17,039
counterfeit money and others, while others don't have that privilege.

533
00:34:17,099 --> 00:34:18,329
That's where it comes from.

534
00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:21,179
That's the only reason that prices are going up and not down.

535
00:34:21,929 --> 00:34:23,699
And inflation is wage deflation.

536
00:34:23,699 --> 00:34:27,299
So what it does is just making everyone poorer over time.

537
00:34:27,449 --> 00:34:31,859
You, you're not getting a 5% raise a year, you're, you're, you're losing 5%

538
00:34:31,859 --> 00:34:33,659
per year because the inflation is 10%.

539
00:34:33,664 --> 00:34:37,579
So, like, and, and the real inflation is even higher than that because they,

540
00:34:37,909 --> 00:34:43,379
in this C P I basket, they don't, they don't take account for house, house

541
00:34:43,379 --> 00:34:45,599
prices and the stock market and so on.

542
00:34:45,604 --> 00:34:49,349
So, uh, it's, it's just a complete joke in the end.

543
00:34:49,559 --> 00:34:50,639
And the joke on you.

544
00:34:51,064 --> 00:34:53,684
So, get out, get some

545
00:34:53,799 --> 00:34:54,409
yeah, I mean,

546
00:34:54,994 --> 00:34:55,384
brush your

547
00:34:55,489 --> 00:35:00,129
yeah, yeah, yeah, actually, it's, uh, it's a really good

548
00:35:00,149 --> 00:35:01,399
argument to get into Bitcoin.

549
00:35:01,399 --> 00:35:03,629
I guess that's why everybody's talking about it.

550
00:35:04,319 --> 00:35:07,649
Um, and also like at the end of the day, it's the people who don't have

551
00:35:07,649 --> 00:35:12,704
an option and are just wage, um, Uh, getting a wage paycheck, those are

552
00:35:12,704 --> 00:35:16,574
the guys who are suffering in order to end massively increasing inflation,

553
00:35:17,154 --> 00:35:21,444
which, uh, we are in a, in a situation where you have a lot higher inflation

554
00:35:21,444 --> 00:35:23,804
than normal all around the world.

555
00:35:24,474 --> 00:35:29,864
Um, so yeah, it's, I think my, uh, outlook on that is a bit

556
00:35:30,074 --> 00:35:32,114
dark and pessimistic, I guess.

557
00:35:32,464 --> 00:35:33,984
Normal people are going to suffer.

558
00:35:34,646 --> 00:35:38,666
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597
00:37:26,553 --> 00:37:28,013
How about remittances?

598
00:37:28,063 --> 00:37:33,483
Is that a, uh, like, Lightning is always, uh, um, quite often, uh, advertised

599
00:37:33,483 --> 00:37:37,903
as being the, the, the real killer app of Lightning being remittances

600
00:37:37,903 --> 00:37:42,483
between countries, like, um, or at least that's a, a major use case.

601
00:37:43,003 --> 00:37:48,653
And I don't know how much of the network you actually monitor at TORC and like

602
00:37:48,803 --> 00:37:52,613
what you, what you see and what you don't see, but like, do you think there's,

603
00:37:53,093 --> 00:38:00,133
there are remittances being sent from Norway, for instance, to wherever refugees

604
00:38:00,133 --> 00:38:03,453
come from, like Syria and other places?

605
00:38:03,733 --> 00:38:05,343
Do you think there's any of that going on?

606
00:38:06,573 --> 00:38:10,013
So, um, that's also a distinction in, in Troy Cooper.

607
00:38:10,403 --> 00:38:14,083
The tooling we're building is focused on the operator operating,

608
00:38:14,203 --> 00:38:15,483
uh, operating their node.

609
00:38:15,813 --> 00:38:18,493
So they're actually not sending any data to us, and we're not

610
00:38:18,543 --> 00:38:23,173
analyzing either private data or public data, so we can't see these,

611
00:38:23,313 --> 00:38:25,323
uh, patterns directly in any way.

612
00:38:25,473 --> 00:38:29,918
All we can do is analyze the public, um, Uh, graph, the lightning graph,

613
00:38:29,928 --> 00:38:33,898
which means which channels, which nodes have chance with who, where

614
00:38:33,958 --> 00:38:37,058
liquidity is allocated and which channels are closing and opening.

615
00:38:37,922 --> 00:38:43,122
I mean, do you think there's that there are remittances sent by a

616
00:38:43,122 --> 00:38:48,022
lightning from the Scandinavian countries to like Ukraine and Syria

617
00:38:48,022 --> 00:38:50,172
and places like that at this moment?

618
00:38:50,682 --> 00:38:54,042
Or do you think that's just a fantasy thing at this point?

619
00:38:54,896 --> 00:38:56,396
I'm not sure in that direction.

620
00:38:56,396 --> 00:39:01,766
I know that lightning has huge benefits in countries where remittances are very,

621
00:39:01,766 --> 00:39:06,896
very expensive or slow, or where large parts of population don't have access to

622
00:39:06,896 --> 00:39:11,616
banking, um, digitally or even close by.

623
00:39:11,736 --> 00:39:16,146
Uh, some people have to travel quite a distance in order to reach a place that

624
00:39:16,146 --> 00:39:20,976
can help them, like Western Union, that can help them transact, uh, or get, um,

625
00:39:20,976 --> 00:39:23,436
money abroad or, uh, send money abroad.

626
00:39:24,416 --> 00:39:28,546
Um, then they additionally take a 10 percent charge or even much higher

627
00:39:28,546 --> 00:39:30,656
sometimes, uh, on their transaction.

628
00:39:31,596 --> 00:39:34,886
Um, and in those cases, Lightning has a huge benefit and is

629
00:39:34,936 --> 00:39:36,876
being used, uh, quite a bit.

630
00:39:37,516 --> 00:39:41,536
Um, so I think we, we need to see more of it and we need to see

631
00:39:41,536 --> 00:39:43,575
a dynamic where there are more.

632
00:39:43,726 --> 00:39:45,346
People exchanging directly.

633
00:39:45,556 --> 00:39:49,356
We need more apps that help people exchange in and out of their native

634
00:39:49,356 --> 00:39:52,416
currency very quickly in order to see that effect in that use case.

635
00:39:54,576 --> 00:39:58,936
Because for a lot of these people, they can't risk being in Bitcoin right now.

636
00:39:58,956 --> 00:40:02,616
They can't just instantly switch to just using Bitcoin because

637
00:40:03,616 --> 00:40:06,896
they have to live in a world where other people aren't using it.

638
00:40:07,866 --> 00:40:11,576
So there is a bit of cold start problem with Bitcoin in a lot of places.

639
00:40:12,284 --> 00:40:19,545
This is such a, uh, a sad part because, uh, yeah, it's like I, I, um, I see a, a

640
00:40:19,604 --> 00:40:21,884
bitcoin, a t m in a mall, for instance.

641
00:40:22,474 --> 00:40:26,764
Uh, and I see isn't this wonderful that you can just, uh, go there and get some,

642
00:40:27,404 --> 00:40:30,044
uh, euros, k y c free from a machine?

643
00:40:30,514 --> 00:40:35,799
Uh, But when you think one step further about that machine, it's, it's only

644
00:40:35,799 --> 00:40:39,739
a matter of time till all the vendors inside the mall realize that people don't

645
00:40:39,739 --> 00:40:41,149
even have to go through the machine.

646
00:40:41,159 --> 00:40:43,859
They could just accept Bitcoin payments directly.

647
00:40:44,429 --> 00:40:48,789
And, uh, I guess it's the same with remittances that people think

648
00:40:48,789 --> 00:40:51,749
that they need to exchange the Bitcoin for some local shitcoin,

649
00:40:52,549 --> 00:40:54,129
but when really they don't.

650
00:40:54,624 --> 00:40:55,294
They don't have to do that.

651
00:40:55,294 --> 00:40:59,274
They could just start this underground economy in their own circles.

652
00:40:59,304 --> 00:41:04,144
And that shows you the importance of orange pilling the people around your

653
00:41:04,154 --> 00:41:07,724
community to make this happen locally.

654
00:41:08,354 --> 00:41:11,724
It's not going to happen by itself.

655
00:41:11,724 --> 00:41:14,864
Well, it is, but it's going to go a lot faster when people

656
00:41:14,864 --> 00:41:16,864
talk to one another about it.

657
00:41:17,454 --> 00:41:22,764
Yeah, I also think like, as the size of the market cap of Bitcoin

658
00:41:22,774 --> 00:41:25,204
grows, we see that stabilize.

659
00:41:26,024 --> 00:41:31,884
We see also during the winter that the value of Bitcoins stabilize quite a bit.

660
00:41:32,424 --> 00:41:36,794
They have some of the sudden moves once in a while, but that helps in general, people

661
00:41:36,794 --> 00:41:40,274
just staying within the Bitcoin currency.

662
00:41:42,144 --> 00:41:46,224
But of course, I think having for a lot of merchants having that option where

663
00:41:46,224 --> 00:41:50,374
they don't even think about them using Bitcoin for quite some time, I think

664
00:41:50,384 --> 00:41:54,754
can actually be a benefit because then people slowly transition into Bitcoin.

665
00:41:55,884 --> 00:41:59,034
And we managed to bring the whole world on board instead of creating this sort

666
00:41:59,034 --> 00:42:01,784
of almost division where people are like, we're only going to use Bitcoin and

667
00:42:01,934 --> 00:42:03,364
others like we're never going to touch it.

668
00:42:04,404 --> 00:42:05,904
That's not the ideal situation.

669
00:42:05,914 --> 00:42:08,174
We should have this transition where.

670
00:42:08,454 --> 00:42:12,164
The people who only want to use Bitcoin can actually use it everywhere, regardless

671
00:42:12,204 --> 00:42:14,004
of other people adopting it or not.

672
00:42:14,024 --> 00:42:17,244
And that way we get much more natural adoption, I think.

673
00:42:17,274 --> 00:42:22,864
Um, so I'm always torn between this sort of idealistic thinking and ideal world

674
00:42:22,884 --> 00:42:25,774
and, and trying to think about how.

675
00:42:26,149 --> 00:42:31,429
Perhaps adoption can happen, and I think we as Bitcoiners have to compromise a

676
00:42:31,439 --> 00:42:35,199
bit with the rest of the world in terms of driving adoption without compromising

677
00:42:35,199 --> 00:42:39,619
on how Bitcoin works and how we're, where we're going to end up in the end.

678
00:42:40,487 --> 00:42:46,807
Yeah, to me, this is definitely a transition phase where these solutions

679
00:42:47,117 --> 00:42:52,497
between all the currencies are happening, because it's sort of like those stationary

680
00:42:52,497 --> 00:42:59,487
computers that had two DVD slots, one for burning a DVD and one for reading one.

681
00:43:00,017 --> 00:43:02,477
And you could just copy movies that way.

682
00:43:03,277 --> 00:43:07,057
When the data is all there, you can just send it to someone.

683
00:43:07,397 --> 00:43:11,387
And like, it's, uh, maybe that's a bad analogy, but, but there are lots of

684
00:43:11,387 --> 00:43:18,167
examples of, uh, of this, like phone companies trying to hinder IP telephony

685
00:43:18,167 --> 00:43:23,037
and, and stuff like that, like, uh, uh, sooner or later people will realize

686
00:43:23,077 --> 00:43:27,857
that the, uh, the network is the network and you don't need the other

687
00:43:27,857 --> 00:43:29,717
networks for the network to function.

688
00:43:31,297 --> 00:43:32,247
Exactly, yeah.

689
00:43:32,817 --> 00:43:37,497
I mean, it's, um, it's always a mix between technology limitations in

690
00:43:37,527 --> 00:43:42,237
technology and limitations in what people understand and can adopt.

691
00:43:43,037 --> 00:43:49,757
Um, I think Bitcoin has a bigger problem with, um, with how merchants and how

692
00:43:49,787 --> 00:43:51,967
people relate and think about it.

693
00:43:53,217 --> 00:43:57,647
And I think we need companies who think much more about the commerce

694
00:43:57,697 --> 00:44:01,977
side than perhaps the ideal state of people holding Bitcoin in their wallet.

695
00:44:02,507 --> 00:44:10,107
I think the ideal solution for adoption is the case where I can go with my app

696
00:44:10,107 --> 00:44:16,467
of choice and pay for whatever in a different country by just scanning a QR

697
00:44:16,527 --> 00:44:21,647
code or tapping the phone to whatever terminal that already exists in that shop.

698
00:44:22,277 --> 00:44:26,297
Um, and when I do that, it exchanges from my Norwegian banking account

699
00:44:26,317 --> 00:44:30,727
into Bitcoin over to the merchants and perhaps back into their currency.

700
00:44:31,257 --> 00:44:35,927
Because having that choice, um, makes it possible for me to choose either.

701
00:44:36,142 --> 00:44:40,852
Loading my shitcoin, local shitcoins into Bitcoin, transacting that

702
00:44:40,852 --> 00:44:45,602
way, or just having that super seamless transition when I need it.

703
00:44:46,412 --> 00:44:49,842
So there is no disruption or extra steps in order to pay.

704
00:44:51,032 --> 00:44:56,312
That's for at least the, the sort of Europe and US and these areas.

705
00:44:56,722 --> 00:45:00,762
In other countries that have a much, much bigger problem with either their financial

706
00:45:00,782 --> 00:45:07,737
system or Um, their local, uh, coins, uh, deflating at an even higher rate.

707
00:45:08,247 --> 00:45:10,197
Um, it's different again.

708
00:45:10,297 --> 00:45:12,967
I think the willingness to hold Bitcoin might be much, much higher.

709
00:45:13,487 --> 00:45:17,993
It's funny that we're seeing these days, um, like a whole

710
00:45:18,003 --> 00:45:23,523
thing about what is really Going on with with Bitcoin adoption.

711
00:45:23,543 --> 00:45:28,163
And right now there's a little bit of Twitter drama going on where where

712
00:45:28,213 --> 00:45:35,133
our friends Joe Nakamoto and Paco de la India are, are going around the

713
00:45:35,133 --> 00:45:41,998
world and showing Bitcoin adoption and, and um, Well, the showing

714
00:45:41,998 --> 00:45:45,418
it and also, you know, trying to increase it and all that good stuff.

715
00:45:45,878 --> 00:45:48,778
Um, and there's, there's some smooth brains out there.

716
00:45:48,778 --> 00:45:53,718
I won't say who they are, who, who are, uh, saying that, you know, that

717
00:45:53,738 --> 00:45:58,938
like, uh, if a merchant allows Bitcoin payments and such a small percentage of

718
00:45:58,938 --> 00:46:03,148
their, their payments are in Bitcoin, well, then what's the value to them

719
00:46:03,328 --> 00:46:06,012
and all this, but the, I don't know.

720
00:46:06,283 --> 00:46:13,833
On the ground of it all is that just by convincing merchants to take it and seeing

721
00:46:13,833 --> 00:46:19,783
that Bitcoin is accepted somewhere, right, like, the payment side and the adoption,

722
00:46:20,013 --> 00:46:26,303
it really does help, right, like, it's not as if a merchant accepting Bitcoin is

723
00:46:26,313 --> 00:46:31,223
going to be even like really a negative for them, unless it massively increases

724
00:46:31,223 --> 00:46:35,908
their anxiety about whether they're tax burden or, or regulatory accounting

725
00:46:35,918 --> 00:46:41,428
needs or something like that, which is, uh, fair that happens in some, some

726
00:46:41,468 --> 00:46:48,748
countries that don't get it, but, but, uh, merchant adoption and payments and,

727
00:46:48,748 --> 00:46:52,688
and all this, this is what the lightning network work is really for, right?

728
00:46:52,698 --> 00:46:56,988
Like that, that's the purpose to actually facilitate the payment side of Bitcoin as

729
00:46:56,988 --> 00:46:58,358
opposed to just keeping a store of value.

730
00:46:58,368 --> 00:46:59,528
Like, what are your thoughts on that?

731
00:47:00,383 --> 00:47:01,063
Yeah, exactly.

732
00:47:01,063 --> 00:47:07,983
I mean, my thoughts in general is that the companies, um, And the people pushing

733
00:47:08,133 --> 00:47:15,583
this online and, um, people operating with lightning, we need to look at how

734
00:47:15,623 --> 00:47:19,973
payments work in the different countries, what the challenges are, and we need to

735
00:47:19,973 --> 00:47:25,473
solve them, um, because nobody's adopting this technology or that's incorrect.

736
00:47:25,673 --> 00:47:27,203
A few people are adopting it.

737
00:47:27,753 --> 00:47:31,133
Just because they want to use that new technology, when you look at the

738
00:47:31,153 --> 00:47:35,823
total population, people care about money, people care about simplicity,

739
00:47:35,883 --> 00:47:41,413
especially simplicity, people even pay money to not have to bother with things.

740
00:47:41,953 --> 00:47:47,443
Like you see with credit card fees and this, like, imagine how much money is

741
00:47:47,753 --> 00:47:50,823
lost by merchants, large merchants.

742
00:47:51,263 --> 00:47:54,033
paying percentages based on transactions.

743
00:47:54,673 --> 00:47:58,693
They're doing that for convenience and they're doing that because they don't

744
00:47:58,693 --> 00:48:02,483
really see that expense that that's sort of just deducted from what they

745
00:48:02,483 --> 00:48:05,933
receive and it's just calculated into the price but they might pay millions

746
00:48:05,973 --> 00:48:10,893
millions for this little box that the customer taps in order to pay them or

747
00:48:10,893 --> 00:48:13,233
whatever form they fill in to to pay.

748
00:48:15,713 --> 00:48:20,523
For their goods online and for lightning adoption in certain

749
00:48:20,523 --> 00:48:24,303
countries, we need to reach the point where the simplicity is equal.

750
00:48:24,393 --> 00:48:28,773
Uh, and, uh, people don't really think about this differently,

751
00:48:28,773 --> 00:48:31,953
but we get all the benefits we get from lightning transactions,

752
00:48:31,953 --> 00:48:33,543
which is the final settlement.

753
00:48:34,053 --> 00:48:36,423
We get the speed of that transaction.

754
00:48:36,483 --> 00:48:40,053
Uh, the price of that transaction is much lower, especially if you do it right.

755
00:48:40,763 --> 00:48:46,503
Uh, we need, um, we need to just show that and sell that, not sell Bitcoin.

756
00:48:46,998 --> 00:48:50,298
and beginning to get these people because they don't care about Bitcoin, right?

757
00:48:50,828 --> 00:48:54,278
We care about Bitcoin and we're trying to get people to care about Bitcoin

758
00:48:54,288 --> 00:49:00,258
because of all the important, um, benefits that has, but as we see at

759
00:49:00,278 --> 00:49:04,848
massive scale, people don't do their, do what's good for them necessarily, right?

760
00:49:05,288 --> 00:49:08,578
Uh, convenience and just going through your day is often...

761
00:49:08,938 --> 00:49:13,118
Enough, uh, for people to just, I don't know, be distracted and not caring

762
00:49:13,118 --> 00:49:15,238
about the important parts of this.

763
00:49:15,268 --> 00:49:20,608
So we need to meet people, um, where they are, and we need to

764
00:49:20,608 --> 00:49:22,318
solve the problems in each country.

765
00:49:22,358 --> 00:49:26,918
And we need to, yeah, make it easy for people to make the right choice.

766
00:49:27,797 --> 00:49:30,547
Any thoughts on El Salvador and what is going on there?

767
00:49:30,647 --> 00:49:32,967
And any thoughts on Chivo Wallet?

768
00:49:33,017 --> 00:49:34,297
Is that a psy op?

769
00:49:34,527 --> 00:49:37,917
Like, is that a CBDC in disguise?

770
00:49:37,947 --> 00:49:40,957
Like, well, what are your thoughts on El Salvador in general?

771
00:49:41,556 --> 00:49:44,246
Um, to be honest, I'm not deep enough into it.

772
00:49:44,246 --> 00:49:48,336
I see stuff on Twitter, but it's so easy on Twitter to say, Oh, that's bad.

773
00:49:48,336 --> 00:49:49,026
Oh, that's good.

774
00:49:49,026 --> 00:49:49,276
Right.

775
00:49:49,646 --> 00:49:52,586
Um, without really looking deeper into what's going on.

776
00:49:52,636 --> 00:49:57,651
Um, I've heard there is issues with adoption, and I think that goes back to

777
00:49:57,651 --> 00:49:59,361
the same stuff I talked about earlier.

778
00:50:00,351 --> 00:50:01,401
People don't understand it.

779
00:50:01,411 --> 00:50:03,941
They don't necessarily know what's good for them.

780
00:50:04,981 --> 00:50:07,231
It is a hard transition, right?

781
00:50:07,421 --> 00:50:12,621
Imagine that we just suddenly come in and say like, in 1997,

782
00:50:13,371 --> 00:50:17,111
we say just everybody should use internet right now to send mail.

783
00:50:19,091 --> 00:50:20,921
A lot of people aren't going to do that, right?

784
00:50:21,281 --> 00:50:23,781
Um, and the convenience stress isn't high enough.

785
00:50:23,801 --> 00:50:30,361
So we need to, to, to get to that point and need to be not necessarily patient,

786
00:50:30,411 --> 00:50:36,361
uh, but need to understand how heavy and how much needs to change to get there.

787
00:50:36,401 --> 00:50:41,996
So I'm actually quite positive of what's happening in El Salvador in terms of Uh,

788
00:50:42,106 --> 00:50:47,236
whatever adoption we have, uh, we need to just keep working on it and increase that.

789
00:50:48,009 --> 00:50:49,829
But yeah, again, I'm not too deep into it.

790
00:50:49,829 --> 00:50:53,779
There's probably a lot of problems in different places, uh, that you

791
00:50:53,779 --> 00:50:58,629
alluded to that I'm not deeply into enough because I'm so focused on

792
00:50:58,629 --> 00:51:02,859
building and working in the Lightning industry from a technical perspective.

793
00:51:04,384 --> 00:51:05,024
Oh, that's great.

794
00:51:05,034 --> 00:51:06,444
That's the division of labor.

795
00:51:06,574 --> 00:51:11,714
Uh, I mean, focus on what you're good at and things will sort themselves out.

796
00:51:11,814 --> 00:51:12,284
Right, Luke?

797
00:51:13,124 --> 00:51:13,974
Yeah, absolutely.

798
00:51:13,974 --> 00:51:18,414
I mean, we need people who understand the technical side and I've got a technical

799
00:51:18,424 --> 00:51:22,694
background and I still even have a fiat job that's kind of tech oriented.

800
00:51:22,694 --> 00:51:29,644
And the thing is, it's still Really not something that I can personally focus

801
00:51:29,694 --> 00:51:34,624
on building the the tech side juggling a fiat job and something like that.

802
00:51:34,654 --> 00:51:38,544
And so so, yeah, for people who actually are able to make the

803
00:51:38,844 --> 00:51:44,144
leap to to work on Bitcoin, it's it's really fantastic to see.

804
00:51:44,144 --> 00:51:50,484
And, and, I mean, how does it work that that to actually get information

805
00:51:50,959 --> 00:51:54,529
Developers and technical people to be able to do more things with Bitcoin

806
00:51:54,539 --> 00:52:00,089
because I, I really do see it as a, as a problem that, for example, they can

807
00:52:00,089 --> 00:52:04,869
just, again, with the shit coins, they can just get a bag of shit coin money to

808
00:52:04,869 --> 00:52:10,699
go work on some blockchain project, or they can mine fiat and do normie things.

809
00:52:11,289 --> 00:52:16,629
Um, how, how do we get developers to, to, uh, Bitcoin and to understand,

810
00:52:16,849 --> 00:52:19,519
uh, why it's important for them to spend their time on that?

811
00:52:20,116 --> 00:52:24,466
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot more developers who really want to work

812
00:52:24,476 --> 00:52:27,956
with Bitcoin and on Bitcoin than the people who get the chance to do it.

813
00:52:28,576 --> 00:52:36,321
Um, the reason for that is, as you said, with With shitcoins, you can

814
00:52:36,321 --> 00:52:40,641
just basically print money out of nowhere, uh, and convince people

815
00:52:40,651 --> 00:52:44,341
through massive amount of marketing that they're worth something, and then

816
00:52:44,341 --> 00:52:48,941
cash that out in order to fund your development, uh, or fund VCs, essentially.

817
00:52:48,951 --> 00:52:52,901
And a lot of VCs have gotten used to the fact that you, you

818
00:52:52,911 --> 00:52:57,551
create this token, you dump it on people, uh, within a year or two.

819
00:52:57,581 --> 00:52:59,131
And if you're a VC.

820
00:52:59,936 --> 00:53:03,766
And you get the choice between a regular startup that spends 10 years

821
00:53:03,766 --> 00:53:10,416
until they can cash out, um, or two years from some, yeah, token.

822
00:53:10,926 --> 00:53:14,256
Um, you're going to do the former, uh, no, the later, I mean.

823
00:53:14,696 --> 00:53:20,926
Um, and that's where Bitcoin is in this position where, funding wise,

824
00:53:21,406 --> 00:53:23,946
they, they operate like in normal.

825
00:53:24,451 --> 00:53:26,021
Um, startup.

826
00:53:26,401 --> 00:53:28,681
So it is the near horizon on things, right.

827
00:53:29,201 --> 00:53:34,361
Um, while the investors who are there are often coming from sort

828
00:53:34,361 --> 00:53:35,861
of the general crypto space.

829
00:53:36,151 --> 00:53:40,561
Uh, of course we have Bitcoin focused VCs and they're often really good, but.

830
00:53:41,201 --> 00:53:44,141
There's limited amount of money in that, which in, in, so

831
00:53:44,141 --> 00:53:45,461
the, the Bitcoin focused one.

832
00:53:46,081 --> 00:53:49,501
So, so you have this huge division, uh, and separation between sort

833
00:53:49,501 --> 00:53:52,441
of the rest of the, the VC world and so the, the Bitcoin VCs.

834
00:53:53,511 --> 00:53:58,291
And that results in less money for the true Bitcoin companies,

835
00:53:58,531 --> 00:54:00,271
uh, which results in fewer jobs.

836
00:54:01,021 --> 00:54:05,371
So there are a lot of people right now who's just either, uh, part-time

837
00:54:05,371 --> 00:54:10,711
or full-time working on open source projects or in companies for lower.

838
00:54:11,011 --> 00:54:15,841
Rages because they're really passionate about getting this to work and doing

839
00:54:15,841 --> 00:54:21,081
the work that is needed, um, for Bitcoin to evolve and to work, and, um.

840
00:54:21,901 --> 00:54:25,741
yeah, I mean, uh, I think it is something that's worthwhile doing

841
00:54:25,751 --> 00:54:30,241
because this industry is growing, uh, steadily through the bear market.

842
00:54:30,681 --> 00:54:35,571
It grows of course, um, a lot in funding wise in the, in the bull market.

843
00:54:36,211 --> 00:54:41,246
And the only way to really get into this industry is through fruitful work.

844
00:54:41,416 --> 00:54:47,046
Uh, you need to show that you understand Bitcoin and especially Lightning

845
00:54:47,056 --> 00:54:49,536
has a complexity that's higher.

846
00:54:49,566 --> 00:54:50,736
It is harder to understand.

847
00:54:50,746 --> 00:54:57,046
There's more terms, um, both from sort of user perspective and from development

848
00:54:57,206 --> 00:54:59,346
perspective of how the network works.

849
00:55:00,046 --> 00:55:05,276
Um, so yeah, proof of work, you really dive into it, uh, spare time

850
00:55:05,346 --> 00:55:09,016
in the beginning if you need to and, uh, get into the industry now.

851
00:55:10,531 --> 00:55:10,751
Yeah.

852
00:55:10,751 --> 00:55:13,661
Proof of work leads leading up to proof of results.

853
00:55:13,991 --> 00:55:16,321
Uh, at some point, that's what we're looking for.

854
00:55:16,941 --> 00:55:21,061
Henrik, thank you very much for the conversation and I hope to see you soon.

855
00:55:21,601 --> 00:55:26,351
Before we leave, can you guide our listeners to where to find you and where

856
00:55:26,351 --> 00:55:31,181
to find TORQ and are you attending any conferences this year or stuff like that?

857
00:55:32,261 --> 00:55:38,221
Yeah, I've, uh, I'm attending the Adopting Bitcoin conference, uh, so, uh, go there.

858
00:55:38,221 --> 00:55:41,921
I think that's a great, uh, conference, uh, also for Lightning.

859
00:55:42,681 --> 00:55:48,001
Um, you can find Torque at, um, Twitter with, uh, at Torque LN.

860
00:55:49,521 --> 00:55:51,751
And, uh, myself at O.

861
00:55:51,801 --> 00:55:57,211
Henrik Skogström, a bit hard to pronounce and understand, so maybe we

862
00:55:57,211 --> 00:56:01,271
can add something in the show notes, um, but that's the main two channels.

863
00:56:01,391 --> 00:56:06,021
Uh, we're also writing a lot of content on Toric LN, uh, to, to help

864
00:56:06,031 --> 00:56:07,861
bring people, uh, into Lightning.

865
00:56:08,740 --> 00:56:09,310
Wonderful.

866
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:10,600
Thank you so much, Henrik.

867
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:12,910
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

868
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:14,040
Thanks for listening.

869
00:56:14,597 --> 00:56:16,347
So what did you think of that episode with Henrik?

870
00:56:16,717 --> 00:56:18,637
It was interesting to learn more about how the Lightning

871
00:56:18,637 --> 00:56:19,937
Network works under the hood.

872
00:56:20,477 --> 00:56:21,667
What was your favorite moment?

873
00:56:21,817 --> 00:56:22,497
Let us know.

874
00:56:22,897 --> 00:56:25,747
You can send us a boostergram on Fountain, leave us a comment on YouTube,

875
00:56:25,757 --> 00:56:27,577
or get in touch on Nostr or Twitter.

876
00:56:28,197 --> 00:56:30,327
If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode

877
00:56:30,327 --> 00:56:31,467
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878
00:56:31,947 --> 00:56:35,947
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879
00:56:36,087 --> 00:56:37,807
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880
00:56:38,207 --> 00:56:39,837
All their information is in the description.

881
00:56:40,687 --> 00:56:44,587
That's all for now, see you next time, and thanks for listening.