Rebuttal: Core vs Knots with Chris Guida | Bitcoin Infinity Show #189

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Chris, welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Nice to have you back.

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Hi, Knut. Great to be back.

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Yes, you were here like, what is it now? Like five months ago or something?

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Something like that or four maybe? I don't remember exactly.

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It's been a few months.

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I feel like it was shorter than that, but you know, time flies.

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Yeah, I think you were here just a week before Core V30 was released or something like that, or two weeks before or something like that.

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The show may have come out just days before.

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Okay, yeah. So December, November, October. Yeah, so that was three months?

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Three months. So yeah, we usually don't have guests back this soon after they've done a thing, but you wanted to come on to do a sort of rebuttal thing to Merch's episode because we're getting bogged down in this core versus not fantastic.

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I was hoping to actually have a conversation directly with Merch, which he still refuses to do for reasons I don't really understand.

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We're using your podcast as kind of the go-between.

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Well, I'm humbled that you're both willing to do that.

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And hopefully I can be a good mediator and maybe I can offer a third view.

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I don't know.

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But what has happened since you were on is, yeah, we had Merch on.

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We also had, I just recently interviewed CONSA, a long two and a half hour episode.

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I haven't released that yet, but that's very good.

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It's obviously from the not side, but also very much on the Austrian economics side and the anarcho-capitalist side,

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which I've, during our time apart, have figured out that you're not really an anarcho-capitalist.

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So we might get into that later on in the episode.

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I used to be.

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You used to be.

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Yes, and I think the thing I want to talk to you about there is maybe Anarcha Pulco and how those LARPers aren't really libertarians.

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That's another whole can of worms.

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Yeah, that's another whole can of worms.

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So I'm just saying that if this can of worms doesn't contain enough worms, we have other cans of worms to open.

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But let's go. You made a fantastic document here about certain timestamps from Merch's episode.

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So people can go and have a look at that if they want to, so they can hear both sides of this argument.

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And yeah, I'm going to try to stay as neutral as I can, but then also offer my opinion.

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So I guess I'm not going to be neutral at all.

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Okay. Yeah. And maybe let's not publish the doc yet.

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I'm going to clean it up if you want to actually publish it.

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I will not publish the doc. I don't intend to, and I don't think it's a good idea. But I do think I'm going to read off of it and we can get into, and maybe you will too, and we'll get into that. So the first point is from one minute and 35 seconds into the conversation with Merch. And that says that you agreed with Merch's definition of Bitcoin more than mine. Yes.

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Yeah. So basically you said, what is Bitcoin? And Murch said something like, it's a network that we can use for internet money. And then he said, it's the internet's native money. And then you said something like, it's a set of rules and a network that makes it more costly to break the rules than to follow the rules or something like that.

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I liked Murch's definition a little bit better because he mentioned that Bitcoin is money and your definition did not mention that.

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Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. My go-to answer is Bitcoin is an agreement on a fixed set of rules. And my slightly longer answer is that the reason we agree on this specific set of rules is that these are the only rules that are more expensive to break than to just follow.

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or that are most more expensive to break than to just follow, if that makes any sense,

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which in turn, in my view, that is the core thing that makes it money

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or makes it the best form of money humanity has ever seen.

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Right, but so it's kind of muddled.

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Your definition is almost like the core devs definition

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in that it doesn't actually say in the definition that Bitcoin is money.

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And I think that that is partly what's causing all the problems with CoreDev is that they have this notion that, oh, well, Bitcoin, the way that it works, it just naturally becomes the best money because of how it works.

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And I don't like I think where the not side is coming from on this is that, you know, maybe it'll get there someday, but we have to make sure that we explicitly define Bitcoin as money so that it can evolve into the best possible money.

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It is probably the best money in existence right now, but that doesn't mean that it will always be money.

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So I think it's important to specify that.

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Okay, I'm going to give an answer to that too.

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And I think the difference here is that I come from the Austrian economics literature in terms of what money is.

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And money, according to Mises and Rothbard and Hoppe too, is something akin to the thing that turns out to be that society's most prominent medium of exchange, implicitly over time and space.

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And I would say that Bitcoin is the best medium of exchange over time and space humanity has ever seen.

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So there's a good likelihood that it becomes money or becomes the best money also.

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It is already money, but it's not already the dominant type of money on planet Earth.

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And that's, I think, is where I draw the distinction.

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Hopper defined money as the best insurance against the future available on the market.

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And right now, that is probably Bitcoin, but it's still sort of up to the debate.

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I would say that it's intended to be money and intended to be a perfect medium of change of a space and time or almost perfect.

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So I think we do agree.

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It's just a semantics thing.

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Well, so I think it's important to point out that Hoppe and Mises and these people who are writing a long time ago were writing about things like gold that are not programmable, right?

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That don't evolve over time.

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Gold is just gold.

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It just it stays exactly how it is, regardless of what, you know, what the culture of gold bugs thinks.

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But Bitcoin is not like that.

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Bitcoin evolves based on what Bitcoiners think Bitcoin should become.

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And so Bitcoin is more of a living system, more of a sort of a macro organism than gold is, because the Bitcoin protocol will can and will evolve, you know, in the direction that Bitcoiners as a whole think that it should evolve in.

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And so if we don't consider, you know, Bitcoin being money as an important as an important goal or as something that needs to be actively fought for, then it's possible and maybe even likely that Bitcoin will start to become worse money over time.

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And so that's that's I think that sort of encapsulates the knots position.

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Yeah. And I by the way, I totally agree with that.

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I think Bitcoin should not aim to be anything but money.

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yes ever like it's super important crucially and i i completely agree with you that because

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bitcoin is bitcoin is is has very fundamentally good you know good features that make it

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fundamentally good money um but as you said it's not the most desirable medium of exchange right

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now um mostly because of network effects um but also there are user experience problems with with

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using bitcoin as a medium of exchange which we can talk about um and that's sort of money yeah

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And aggressive monetary monopolists hindering its evolution by enforcing people into behaviors that hinders Bitcoin adoption.

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They need to pay their taxes in dollars and so on and so forth.

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Yep.

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And they have to do settlement of oil purchases.

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You know, if you're a state actor is trying to buy and sell oil, you kind of have to use the dollar for that because the US monetary points a gun at your head.

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All right.

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next point i think we need to to move on here if we're going to get anywhere here so 350 in one

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group thinks that scaling is not part of what's what makes bet bitcoin better money yes this is a

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quote from uh from merch uh i guess yeah this is where merch was trying to paint the knot side as

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people who don't like scaling um and that's um just it's just dishonest the knot side does not

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dislike scaling. We think that Bitcoin needs to scale. As you and I were both saying just now,

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I think that it's important that Bitcoin become a popular medium of exchange because that's how it

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becomes the best money. And so it is impossible for Bitcoin to scale to a global user base

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in the current technological paradigm. Bitcoin needs to be upgraded in one way or another,

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or it just simply will not scale to a global user base. And so the Notsite, as I see it,

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Bitcoin sees that as important, but we need to be careful about scaling and do it properly

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instead of just kind of like, let's just open all the floodgates and let all the shitcoin

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VC money flood in and build whatever it wants.

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Because if you do that, then you risk corrupting the culture.

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And if you corrupt the culture, then Bitcoin may lose its way and stop trying to be the

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best money.

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And it will start trying to be whatever fiat VCs want it to be.

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Yeah, I absolutely agree.

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And here it's important to, I think, to point out the two problems that money solves, and that is removing the need for a mutual coincidence of needs, like is the case with barter trading.

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And the other is economic calculation.

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Without money, people cannot assess the future in the way they can if they have money.

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So they can calculate what they need to buy and how much income they need, how much profit they need, so on and so forth.

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And I'd say that any upgrade to Bitcoin that does not help one of those two is not really an upgrade to Bitcoin, but a sharecoin takeover attempt.

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Like Bitcoin should not upgrade if the upgrade does not make it better money.

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And I think the Nott side might have a stricter definition of what that actually means.

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Yeah, I think that those two points are related to your two definitions of your two types of medium of exchange, right?

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Your medium of exchange.

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Time and space, yeah.

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With space, you know, between people and then with yourself in the future, right?

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It's kind of like both of those different functions.

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Yes, and you can't have one without the other in a way.

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Like money needs to be both.

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There's no point in a medium of exchange over time if you cannot send it to other people.

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There's no point in a medium of exchange over space sending it to other people if it can't keep its value over time.

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because then you can't make the economic calculation,

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which is one of the problems,

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the very core problems that money is supposed to solve.

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Yep.

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And I've said this before.

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I think I said this on your last podcast,

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but Bitcoin is innovative and exciting

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because it solves both problems at the same time.

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So it is both a store of value and a medium of exchange.

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And this is what makes it exciting.

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Yeah.

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It's currently a better store of value than the dollar,

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but it is not a better medium of exchange than the dollar.

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And I think this is a problem.

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Yes.

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And come to think of it,

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these two problems that money solve are actually, the solution is actually medium exchange over space

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and medium exchange over time. The solution to the coincidence of needs is the medium exchange

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over space aspect. The solution to the economic calculation is medium exchange over time.

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So it makes perfect sense. So I think... Yeah, I like how you formulate that. That's brilliant.

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Thank you. And I think on the core side, that view may be more muddled. I suspect that we have, this is also taking sides, and I don't really like that when I'm doing an interview, but I suspect that there are more people who view money in that Austrian way on the not side. I suspect so.

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But I mean, I'm willing to give people benefit of the doubt.

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Let's just go on and see how we can comment on this point.

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Yeah, just to kind of summarize what I think for this conversation, what the difference, the important difference between Core and Knotts is that I think there's a lot of libertarians and even anarchists on both sides and even Austrian supporters on both sides.

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But I think that Core takes the view that Bitcoin is already ideal money and we just need to kind of tinker with it and then, you know, everything will be fine. Whereas Notts takes a more conservative approach and they think, you know, we should, we should, you know, we should, we should improve it. Right. But in the correct direction and make sure that we're doing the, if we're making changes to Bitcoin, we're making the correct changes to Bitcoin.

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Absolutely. I think this is very close to the difference between what I call a LARP-bertarian and a real libertarian. If you think the free market, in a truly free market, you can do whatever the fuck you want and you can scam people.

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That is not the Austrian definition of a free market A breach of contract is a breach of contract Scamming and spamming and implicitly spamming is not okay on a free market It is a crime If you advertising a product and you selling something else than you advertising you committing a contract crime of some kind a fraud at best

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I think. You're infringing someone's property rights at the very end. Exactly. Exactly. So

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that's what all crime is an infringement of property rights, according to Rothbardian

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ethics. So I think this is at the core, pun intended, of what we're missing here,

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because I think many people on the many sides of many issues think that they have a libertarian

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view when they don't really understand what a free market is. It does not give you permission

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to do whatever the fuck you want. That's not the point. All right.

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I like that formulation. And I just want to add to that. I think a lot of crypto people are,

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as you call them, larbertarians, where they want freedom, but they don't want any responsibility.

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So that's how I would summarize that.

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And I think fantastic.

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But I think it's infecting.

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There's always been sort of a contingent of the Bitcoin community that's been LARPitarians.

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And I think that that is now the majority of Bitcoin core.

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I'm sorry to say.

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Well, yeah, I might not have that a dark view about them, but I'd say like and I usually don't like to name names.

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But when people are obvious scammers, such as Eric Voorhees, for instance, I think that

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he's in the LARPitarian camp because he created an exchange that legitimized all the shit

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coins and compared them as equals to Bitcoin.

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And you could exchange back and forth when the whole idea is him taking your sets in the

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fees between the like.

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To me, that's obvious.

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If you're a shitcoin exchange, you make money off of people believing that there's any value in these things.

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And therefore, you can charge fees when people want to trade their precious sats for other shit.

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So at best, it's ingenuous.

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What's the word?

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Disingenuous.

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Insincere.

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Yeah.

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Yes. Yeah. Eric Voorhees and I go back a long way. And there are there are many Bitcoiners like him from from the early days. Yeah. Unfortunately, as you say, I yeah, I would consider them LARPitarians. Would I consider Eric Voorhees a scammer? Probably not. But I think he just he enables scammers and he and he I think he doesn't realize that he's doing it.

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Yeah, I can give him the benefit. I shouldn't be too harsh on the guy either. But as I said, I don't like picking on people. But I think at least he's definitely enabling scammers by providing that service.

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And I think that, yeah, this is this is the problem that that's infecting Bitcoin core at the moment is there's all these scammers that are trying to invade Bitcoin and the and the core devs are going, well, you know, the free market likes these scams.

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And so, you know, what are who are we to say what the free market should do?

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That's not the free market.

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So that's the point I really want to hammer in.

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And I want to add that, you know, libertarians love the free market. But what they don't realize is that when you have a money printer that prints the reserve asset, you don't have a free market. And this is actually my pinned tweet. Capitalism without money is not capitalism.

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100%

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There's all of this economic demand for all these scams

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And I'm like, yeah, there's a money printer

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That's stealing money from poor people

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And just shoveling it into the dumbest shit imaginable

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Of course people like scamming

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In that environment, scamming is one of the best, most lucrative strategies

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Of course, yeah

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As Bitcoiners, we should fight that

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As Bitcoiners, we're trying to bring a new sort of ethic into being

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Absolutely

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It's actually an older ethic

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It's actually, I think, a more natural or more human ethic, which is that you should build things of lasting value and you should provide real value to the world.

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And the monetary system should reward that.

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And the problem with the fiat monetary system is it's the opposite of that.

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It rewards people for doing bad things and punishes people for doing good things.

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Absolutely. I would call it natural law.

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I mean, this is the point, one of the underlying points of the entire Praxeology book I wrote is that we've never had true capitalism because we don't have sound money.

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Not even on a gold standard, we have absolutely finite money supply.

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And you sort of need that to get to experience the true beauty of the free market where everyone wins always.

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That has never been tried.

198
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All right.

199
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But Bitcoin fixes this.

200
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That is what Bitcoin does.

201
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Bitcoin absolutely fixes this.

202
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So, yes, where are we?

203
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We're never going to get all the way through this Google Doc, by the way.

204
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I mean, if we're going to do it at this speed, it would take us like 10 hours to get all the way through.

205
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No, but I kind of like it.

206
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And you're welcome to continue any day because I absolutely love this.

207
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Or do you want to do it any other way?

208
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Do you want to speed run through it or do you want to go back and forth?

209
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I have a couple of things that I wanted to highlight.

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um so one of the things is he's merch specifically called me out by name um at where is it 54 or

211
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something 40. holy shit this is long i know yeah you you didn't scroll all the way to the bottom

212
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yes it's a long yeah that's why we're never gonna get to the end of this thing but yeah so i wanted

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to specifically call that out um it would not call that out but i wanted to specifically respond to

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that because he you know misrepresented my position on that and then yeah i think we should

215
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talk about so we're talking about sort of the the the fundamental philosophy of bitcoin uh which i

216
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think we just touched on um and then there's you know uh things that are effective against spam

217
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and and why core's um uh core is making the problem worse rather than better um and then

218
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there's maybe addressing how core has made the problem even worse by not engaging with the

219
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node runners and the NOS supporters in an honest way. So, yeah, the large Burzai viewpoints that I'd

220
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like to hit and then we can... Okay, you want me to recite the entire quote here from Merch and

221
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where he misrepresents you or how do we want to do this?

222
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Yeah, you don't have to do that.

223
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I can just say, so yeah, so he says Chris Guida

224
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has been making that argument a lot.

225
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Okay, so you asked him,

226
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isn't it more expensive to run a node on a Raspberry Pi

227
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or isn't it impossible to run a node on a Raspberry Pi?

228
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And he said, oh no, that's wrong.

229
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

230
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Yeah, and then he said,

231
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Chris Guida is making that argument a lot.

232
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And then he explained why he thought that my argument was wrong. And then I thought it was interesting that he then explained why Bitcoin Core has, number one, has received a lot of reports of Raspberry Pis being slow to sync. And Bitcoin Core is specifically focusing on fixing Raspberry Pis, which he said that Lawrence is working on.

233
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So there's a whole lot of detail in all of that.

234
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But I guess just to summarize how he misrepresented my position, he said, so Chris Guida has been making that argument a lot.

235
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It is my impression that he was taking the point at which assume valid, the assume valid block was for an older version of Bitcoin Core at which it starts doing full script validation.

236
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So basically he said Chris Guida did a sync at some point.

237
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But so what he thinks that my position is, is, OK, Chris Guida did a sync at some point.

238
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And then he noticed that at some point in the syncing process, it slowed down a lot.

239
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And that's the assume valid point.

240
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And so Chris Guida, being the incompetent, you know, buffoon that he is, assumed that

241
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this was the effect of the spam and not the effect of assume valid.

242
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And so I just want to point out that this is this is this is the kind of this is the

243
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shit I'm talking about.

244
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like they just assume that when there's criticisms of how bitcoin core works that the people bringing

245
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up the criticisms are incompetent and doing something dumb um instead of just listening

246
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to the criticism and maybe engaging with the user and being like okay well that was your experience

247
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but a lot of use a lot of other users have had different experiences from you so maybe let's

248
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try to figure out whether there's some kernel of truth in what you're saying or whether you're just

249
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being a troll so they're treating me like a troll right but this is this is improper because i i

250
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worked for Start9 for years and leading up to the spam attacks and before the spam attack. And I've

251
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directly firsthand experienced the syncing process on a Raspberry Pi many, many times.

252
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And I have the primary, one of the primary goals of Start9 was to help as many people as possible

253
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sync the Bitcoin network as cheaply and as quickly and as easily as possible to run a lightning

254
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note. That was sort of their original goal. And so it's really just kind of bewildering and very

255
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concerning that he thinks that I'm some kind of just, you know, some kind of incompetent guy with

256
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no experience. You know, I'm probably the person that they should be talking to the most because

257
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I'm the most technical person who has experience syncing lots and lots of Raspberry Pis and helping

258
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people sync raspberry pies um so that's just it's just uh crazy to me that he would assume

259
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that that that i i misinterpreted the effect of of assume valid for the spam it's just okay so so

260
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so so what's the truth about uh the the cost of syncing on a raspberry pi is it much worse

261
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since february 2023 or not absolutely yes it is so and and as i said i have firsthand experience

262
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sinking many, many Raspberry Pis starting in 2020, which is when I started working for Start9,

263
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all throughout 2021, 2022, you could sink a Raspberry Pi in a few days, maybe a couple of

264
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weeks at most is how long it would take. There's a lot, a lot of moving parts with the initial

265
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sink. So it's like your mileage may vary. But in general, before the spam attacks up until 2022,

266
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you could sink a Raspberry Pi in, you know, five to, you know, 14 or 15 days. And then once the

267
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spam attack started hitting, it slowed down dramatically. And so, and the crazy thing about

268
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this is that Bitcoin Core, the core devs know that UTXO set bloat is bad because they know

269
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it slows down the initial sync. And they know that it makes, it can, if your computer is slow

270
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enough, it can make your computer fall out of sync with the rest of the network. Because, you know,

271
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you can have a block that takes a really long time to validate. And so they know that a large

272
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UTXO set is a problem. And we know that they know because their entire rationale for removing the

273
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opportun limit in PR32406 was UTXO set bloat. They were like, oh my God, Citria is going to add

274
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64 bytes of unspendable UTXO set bloat. And this is a huge problem. This is a problem that's huge

275
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enough that we have to cause basically a civil war in Bitcoin to fix this problem.

276
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so we know that they know that utxo set bloat is a problem and if they would just be honest with us

277
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and say yeah of course utxo set bloat is the reason why raspberry pi sinking slowed down

278
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dramatically during the spam attacks if they said that then i would trust them that they're engaging

279
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with the problem honestly merch did not not a single core dev has said yeah it's probably true

280
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that the UTXO set bloat caused by the BRC20 spam attack,

281
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which I'll remind your listeners,

282
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multiplied the UTXO set from four gigabytes to 12 gigabytes.

283
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Okay, it added 200% of the current UTXO set in 2022.

284
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By 2024, it was eight gigabytes more than that.

285
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Okay, that's a huge amount of UTXO set bloat

286
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from this spam attack.

287
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And so they're just complaining about UTXO set bloat when it suits their purposes, i.e. when they want to remove the opportune limit.

288
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But then they ignore UTXO set bloat when they actually need to take a serious look at Bitcoin D's architecture.

289
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And maybe take a serious look and be like, yeah, it's hard to sync a Bitcoin node cheaply and conveniently.

290
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And so as Merck said later, oh, yeah, we are working on this.

291
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Lawrence is working on speeding up the sync on the Raspberry Pi.

292
00:26:20,687 --> 00:26:28,967
So he's both acknowledging it and he's both saying, yeah, it's a problem because he has to say that because that's the, but I'm repeating myself now.

293
00:26:29,207 --> 00:26:30,007
Do you see what I'm saying?

294
00:26:30,467 --> 00:26:35,847
Yeah, yeah, but it's Schrodinger's UTXO set load, just like they did with Schrodinger's UTXO set load.

295
00:26:36,087 --> 00:26:42,587
And I've heard Mechanic make this argument, too, about the UTXO set load and how they're going back and forth on it.

296
00:26:42,587 --> 00:26:52,107
So why do you think that is? What makes them do that? It sounds suspiciously a lot like corruption to me, but is that what you're saying?

297
00:26:52,747 --> 00:26:58,707
So I will be charitable and I will assume that they are doing it because of laziness.

298
00:26:59,267 --> 00:27:03,207
So all of their actions can be assumed by laziness.

299
00:27:03,507 --> 00:27:08,627
So basically, you know, if so, so fixing IBD is a very, very, very difficult problem.

300
00:27:08,627 --> 00:27:17,027
I mean, there's an insanely large amount of moving parts to try to make IBD quicker, especially on a device like the Raspberry Pi, which is...

301
00:27:17,027 --> 00:27:19,207
Initial block download, right?

302
00:27:19,467 --> 00:27:20,447
Yes, the initial block download.

303
00:27:20,447 --> 00:27:25,667
Yeah, for listeners who are not familiar with the abbreviations.

304
00:27:25,807 --> 00:27:26,687
Okay, yeah.

305
00:27:26,847 --> 00:27:29,148
So there's a razor there somewhere.

306
00:27:29,287 --> 00:27:31,007
You're familiar with Occam's razor.

307
00:27:31,187 --> 00:27:33,067
Like maybe this is Chris Guida's razor.

308
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Never a tribute to Malice.

309
00:27:35,307 --> 00:27:36,007
That's Guida.

310
00:27:36,227 --> 00:27:37,027
Guida, sorry.

311
00:27:37,027 --> 00:27:54,355
Maybe this is Chris Guida razor never attribute to malice that which can be explained by laziness Laziness Exactly All right Oh well that good So what I saying is so if you look at their rationale for removing the opportune limit it was basically laziness

312
00:27:54,655 --> 00:27:56,795
They were like, we don't want to have to deal with this every time.

313
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So we're just going to get rid of it and maybe somebody else will deal with it.

314
00:28:00,315 --> 00:28:01,535
That was basically their rationale.

315
00:28:01,535 --> 00:28:03,115
And the same thing with IBD.

316
00:28:03,255 --> 00:28:08,555
They were basically like, well, you know, whenever somebody complains about slow IBD, we're just going to ignore them.

317
00:28:08,915 --> 00:28:09,315
Right.

318
00:28:09,315 --> 00:28:13,715
If you just ignore all of the criticism, then you make less work for yourself.

319
00:28:13,975 --> 00:28:16,855
So I think that's actually the proper explanation for this.

320
00:28:18,535 --> 00:28:19,015
Yeah.

321
00:28:22,155 --> 00:28:24,675
That's interesting, to say the least.

322
00:28:24,855 --> 00:28:25,715
Where do we go next?

323
00:28:25,915 --> 00:28:26,295
All right.

324
00:28:27,995 --> 00:28:36,075
Censorship resistance is an important property of Bitcoin, but it's not the most important property because there are a lot of systems that are censorship resistant.

325
00:28:36,075 --> 00:28:36,515
Yeah.

326
00:28:36,515 --> 00:28:38,775
Only one censorship resistant money.

327
00:28:39,315 --> 00:28:50,635
Yeah. So this is this is something that Murch said. I think he talked to you and then he talked to Luke DeWolf about, which is censorship resistance is a core feature of Bitcoin.

328
00:28:51,495 --> 00:28:57,995
Yeah, I've heard many people say that that's think that that's the absolute most important property.

329
00:28:59,135 --> 00:29:06,375
Yeah, so it is a very important property. It's kind of like what you were saying earlier with store of value and medium of exchange being important properties.

330
00:29:06,375 --> 00:29:23,375
They're both important properties. We have to have both of them. Right. So censorship resistance is one is like that. Right. It's it's something that without which Bitcoin would not work. OK, Bitcoin has to be censorship resistant. However, that is not sufficient for Bitcoin to succeed. Bitcoin needs to be censorship resistant money.

331
00:29:23,375 --> 00:29:34,515
If it stops being money, but it's censorship resistant, then it doesn't have any advantages over shit coins like Litecoin and BCH and Monero.

332
00:29:35,315 --> 00:29:36,935
And even worse than that, it doesn't have any.

333
00:29:37,075 --> 00:29:42,395
There's lots of censorship resistant data storage tech like BitTorrent and IPFS and Nostr.

334
00:29:42,755 --> 00:29:47,855
Those are censorship resistant data storage systems.

335
00:29:48,555 --> 00:29:50,835
And, you know, we already have those, right?

336
00:29:50,835 --> 00:29:55,575
We don't need another censorship resistant data storage platform.

337
00:29:55,835 --> 00:29:57,555
Bitcoin is censorship resistant money.

338
00:29:58,015 --> 00:29:59,095
That's what makes it interesting.

339
00:29:59,955 --> 00:30:05,155
Yeah, and I think people have the wrong definition of the word censorship because censorship

340
00:30:05,155 --> 00:30:11,595
implies that you were coerced or threatened to not say something or to not send some information.

341
00:30:12,235 --> 00:30:15,835
And there is no such thing going on in people filtering stuff.

342
00:30:15,835 --> 00:30:20,995
There's no such thing going on if people find a consensus around the cat, for instance.

343
00:30:21,095 --> 00:30:22,055
That's not censorship.

344
00:30:22,435 --> 00:30:23,775
It's not confiscation.

345
00:30:24,115 --> 00:30:27,355
It's just people agreeing that this is OK and this is not OK.

346
00:30:27,815 --> 00:30:30,935
This is not censorship because there are no guns involved.

347
00:30:31,035 --> 00:30:32,475
And I think people get that backwards.

348
00:30:33,795 --> 00:30:33,915
Yeah.

349
00:30:34,115 --> 00:30:36,235
So, yeah, censorship resistance is a big topic.

350
00:30:36,375 --> 00:30:41,575
I think that Merch and most of the core devs have a rather extreme view on this.

351
00:30:41,855 --> 00:30:44,615
And this goes back to the Schrodinger's Filter thing.

352
00:30:44,615 --> 00:30:54,775
Like they both think that, you know, running knots is censorship or like they both say that filters work and filters don't work.

353
00:30:54,975 --> 00:31:00,655
Right. So they'll say, oh, filters don't work unless, you know, 90 percent or more of the network is filtering.

354
00:31:01,035 --> 00:31:03,595
But then they'll say, oh, but filtering is censorship.

355
00:31:04,995 --> 00:31:08,115
Yeah. And so it's kind of like, OK, well, you have to pick one or the other.

356
00:31:08,115 --> 00:31:18,075
If it's easy to get a transaction confirmed that 10% of the network is relaying and 90% of the network is filtering, then censorship on Bitcoin is really, really, really hard, which is my position.

357
00:31:18,595 --> 00:31:27,055
Like, even if 100% of the network is filtering transactions, Bitcoin is still censorship resistant because you can just send your transaction directly to a miner.

358
00:31:27,735 --> 00:31:35,555
I think it's deeper, though, because I think this is back to the LARP-terians versus the libertarians, because filtering is not censorship at all.

359
00:31:35,555 --> 00:31:45,635
And stopping someone from sending a transaction because it's not really a monetary transaction, I wouldn't define that as censorship at all, like super far from it.

360
00:31:46,335 --> 00:31:53,815
Exactly. Yeah. So the Bitcoin transaction relay network is basically just it's kind of like a bunch of people in a room playing telephone.

361
00:31:54,675 --> 00:32:00,035
You know, somebody is whispering things in your ear and then you're whispering things to all of your friends based on what they said.

362
00:32:00,035 --> 00:32:07,335
Right. And so what a filter is, is that sometimes when you hear somebody whisper a message, you think I'm not going to whisper that.

363
00:32:07,675 --> 00:32:17,115
That's all a filter is. It's just, you know, I am not going to enable this particular piece of information to propagate widely throughout the network.

364
00:32:17,355 --> 00:32:22,215
You know, the buck stops from me. Right. Obviously, on a distributed network, that's difficult.

365
00:32:22,415 --> 00:32:29,935
But, you know, as you were saying, it's important to still send that signal like these transactions are abusive and these transactions are.

366
00:32:30,035 --> 00:32:34,115
are not abusive right these transactions are data storage and these transactions are money

367
00:32:34,675 --> 00:32:39,555
so i run a node so that i can enable bitcoin to be better money and so i am enthusiastic about

368
00:32:40,355 --> 00:32:45,795
relaying payment transactions to my peers but i am not enthusiastic about relaying data

369
00:32:45,795 --> 00:32:50,835
transactions to my peers because those make bitcoin worse money satoshi set this precedent

370
00:32:50,835 --> 00:32:57,635
satoshi set the precedent of and you know this is a whole conversation about uh why the the

371
00:32:57,635 --> 00:32:59,295
the opportunity conflict happened.

372
00:32:59,795 --> 00:33:01,335
But basically the core position is,

373
00:33:01,475 --> 00:33:03,795
you know, well, there shouldn't be filters, right?

374
00:33:04,115 --> 00:33:06,975
You know, the relay, everything that gets reliably,

375
00:33:07,255 --> 00:33:09,335
everything that gets reliably mined

376
00:33:09,335 --> 00:33:11,155
should be relayed by the relay network.

377
00:33:11,535 --> 00:33:13,415
And the precedent that Satoshi set

378
00:33:13,415 --> 00:33:14,795
is completely counter to that.

379
00:33:15,255 --> 00:33:16,275
Satoshi set the precedent of,

380
00:33:16,415 --> 00:33:18,635
we're going to have very loose consensus rules

381
00:33:18,635 --> 00:33:22,135
so that we can always do softworks to upgrade the rules.

382
00:33:22,275 --> 00:33:24,435
And when you do softworks, you're restricting the rules.

383
00:33:24,515 --> 00:33:26,535
So you're taking this very like unrestricted rule set

384
00:33:26,535 --> 00:33:30,755
And then you're sort of incrementally restricting it over time to make Bitcoin better money.

385
00:33:31,135 --> 00:33:32,255
But the filters are the opposite, right?

386
00:33:32,315 --> 00:33:37,575
The filters, you want filters to be as restrictive as possible to only allow the monetary uses and not the data uses.

387
00:33:38,655 --> 00:33:39,995
And I guess you set this precedent.

388
00:33:40,375 --> 00:33:46,955
And we've been doing that, you know, since the beginning, except for the last few years when Core has suddenly done a 180 on that.

389
00:33:48,155 --> 00:33:52,595
I think that you might slightly be misrepresenting that position.

390
00:33:52,595 --> 00:34:02,475
I think what March tried to get, the point March tried to get across was that it's more or less futile, not necessarily that they should be relayed.

391
00:34:02,535 --> 00:34:10,855
It's just that the filtering is kind of futile and that especially that the op-return policy is futile because these things get mined anyway.

392
00:34:11,275 --> 00:34:17,695
So their position is that it's harmful to have filters that are filtering things that are popular.

393
00:34:17,695 --> 00:34:20,135
For fee estimation and stuff like that, right?

394
00:34:21,015 --> 00:34:25,475
Yes, both for fee estimation, but mostly for mining centralization.

395
00:34:25,595 --> 00:34:33,435
So they say, OK, well, if you filter things that are popularly being mined, then you do a few things, right?

396
00:34:33,435 --> 00:34:35,495
You mess up fee estimation, which is wrong.

397
00:34:35,595 --> 00:34:38,075
You don't actually mess up fee estimation that much.

398
00:34:39,255 --> 00:34:41,255
Might it be a little bit different from the rest of the network?

399
00:34:41,375 --> 00:34:41,515
Sure.

400
00:34:41,655 --> 00:34:43,835
But that's not relevant for reasons we can get into.

401
00:34:43,835 --> 00:34:46,595
They say that it causes mining centralization for two reasons.

402
00:34:46,895 --> 00:34:49,895
One, because it makes block propagation slower.

403
00:34:49,895 --> 00:35:01,075
So basically that favors large miners because large miners can sort of do this accidental selfish mining attack where they, what is it?

404
00:35:03,235 --> 00:35:10,555
Yeah, anyway, when you make block propagation slower, I forget what the argument is exactly, but this is why it would be good to talk to a guy.

405
00:35:10,555 --> 00:35:17,475
I think there's a bunch of software that doesn't like that, that will not function as well.

406
00:35:17,475 --> 00:35:23,935
yeah it's basically okay if you if you if you're a well-connected miner and you're a well-funded

407
00:35:23,935 --> 00:35:27,875
miner right you're a large miner you can you can uh you can have better infrastructure and you can

408
00:35:27,875 --> 00:35:32,055
make sure that your blocks propagate more quickly and then if some of the network doesn't receive

409
00:35:32,055 --> 00:35:36,295
your blocks well that's actually an advantage for you because then you can just start mining on top

410
00:35:36,295 --> 00:35:40,515
of that block that you already mined and then the rest of the network might be a disadvantage to you

411
00:35:40,515 --> 00:35:44,475
because you have a higher hash rate and you can do what's called a selfish mining attack but the

412
00:35:44,475 --> 00:35:58,315
But the counter to that, that the not side makes, is that, well, you're harming yourself if the rest of the network doesn't see your block because a block that's filled with spam is going to get filtered, you know, is going to propagate more slowly because of block reconstruction.

413
00:35:58,615 --> 00:35:59,455
We can get into that.

414
00:36:01,135 --> 00:36:05,875
And so you have a higher risk of your block being orphaned.

415
00:36:05,875 --> 00:36:23,775
And actually, if you go back to the docs when compact blocks were added in 2016, you'll see that the Bitcoin Core official release in the release notes said, hey, miners, you should update to the official defaults of Bitcoin Core, because if you don't, your blocks are going to take longer to propagate and that will raise your risk.

416
00:36:23,775 --> 00:36:30,055
and then the the last way that it that it that they say it causes mining centralization is that

417
00:36:30,055 --> 00:36:36,875
it it pushes people to use out of band um out of band transaction submission and because larger

418
00:36:36,875 --> 00:36:42,155
miners are more likely to have direct apis and those direct apis are more likely to be seen

419
00:36:42,155 --> 00:36:46,475
you know by you know there's a power law right if you have a large miner that has a large amount

420
00:36:46,475 --> 00:36:49,815
of hash rate people are going to submit their transactions privately to that miner more than

421
00:36:49,815 --> 00:36:53,935
they're going to submit their transactions privately to smaller miners because those

422
00:36:53,935 --> 00:36:59,555
have less chance of getting confirmed. But there's a way around that too, which we can also go into.

423
00:37:00,255 --> 00:37:01,735
What's the counter argument to that?

424
00:37:02,215 --> 00:37:07,875
The counter argument to that is you can easily build a protocol that allows users to submit to

425
00:37:07,875 --> 00:37:14,495
a pool of mining pools. And that basically has whatever attributes the user likes.

426
00:37:14,495 --> 00:37:18,915
so instead of a

427
00:37:18,915 --> 00:37:21,655
public relay network where everybody sees the transaction

428
00:37:21,655 --> 00:37:25,575
you have a private relay network that nevertheless includes

429
00:37:25,575 --> 00:37:28,835
a lot of large miners and small miners so that would be completely

430
00:37:28,835 --> 00:37:31,055
feasible to build. Okay

431
00:37:31,055 --> 00:37:35,315
but still you have to build it

432
00:37:35,315 --> 00:37:38,735
so there's a slight hurdle. Of course

433
00:37:38,735 --> 00:37:41,895
yeah but what I'm saying is if we needed to build it then we could

434
00:37:41,895 --> 00:37:52,155
uh yeah uh this is reminds me of why i initially really like the cat proposal because like it so

435
00:37:52,155 --> 00:37:59,855
clearly points out that bitcoin it is more risky to try to embed data on bitcoin than to not do it

436
00:37:59,855 --> 00:38:06,035
and that's the way it's supposed to be because you expose yourself to the risk of the network being

437
00:38:06,035 --> 00:38:12,195
pissed enough to basically, well, quote unquote, censor your transaction at some point in the

438
00:38:12,195 --> 00:38:12,455
future.

439
00:38:12,455 --> 00:38:16,735
And it pointed out that that is possible as long as we agree on it.

440
00:38:17,055 --> 00:38:20,335
Whether we will or not is another question.

441
00:38:21,075 --> 00:38:28,015
But just the fact that it was never proof of work solely that shielded your transaction

442
00:38:28,015 --> 00:38:29,375
and made it safe.

443
00:38:29,575 --> 00:38:33,015
It was first and foremost, the consensus of the network.

444
00:38:33,595 --> 00:38:34,715
And I love that.

445
00:38:34,715 --> 00:38:36,335
It's always people.

446
00:38:36,935 --> 00:38:37,335
Right.

447
00:38:37,575 --> 00:38:37,735
Yeah.

448
00:38:37,855 --> 00:38:49,175
And I love that you brought that up because the kind of the moment where the your interview with Murch became sort of less interesting is when Murch was like, yeah, I agree with you, but there's nothing we can do about it.

449
00:38:49,255 --> 00:38:53,095
So the cat points to the to what the solution is.

450
00:38:53,135 --> 00:38:55,055
The solution is to break the shit corners protocols.

451
00:38:55,655 --> 00:38:56,275
That's the solution.

452
00:38:56,575 --> 00:38:57,695
And that's how we've always done it.

453
00:38:57,695 --> 00:39:04,155
If you go back to, you know, 2013, 2014, whenever the opera turn wars against the counterparty people and the Omni people and all that.

454
00:39:05,795 --> 00:39:11,715
Basically, the Bitcoin core devs were like, OK, you can build that, but we're going to add filters and consensus rules that break your shit.

455
00:39:12,975 --> 00:39:26,595
So so the scammers who were trying to launch these these, you know, spammy, scammy protocols on top of Bitcoin were like, oh, well, we're going to lose all our money if Bitcoin devs are at war with us, you know, and they're constantly escalating until we leave.

456
00:39:26,595 --> 00:39:32,695
And so let's just preemptively leave and go to some other blockchain, which is what they did. And then they left us alone for a decade.

457
00:39:32,695 --> 00:39:40,555
so uh if we give the core the benefit of the doubt there and say that the the argument i think

458
00:39:40,555 --> 00:39:46,355
from merch and others is that yeah but it's futile because they can just route around it and

459
00:39:46,355 --> 00:39:51,835
they can just do it again and blah blah blah and my counter to that is that yeah but at least

460
00:39:51,835 --> 00:40:00,215
there's a cost attached next time and i think the cat very much points out that you you are putting

461
00:40:00,215 --> 00:40:08,275
yourself at risk by adding spam like it's it's real the risk is real right and you know and

462
00:40:08,275 --> 00:40:14,495
people are right to point out that that that is kind of confiscation but at the same time uh as

463
00:40:14,495 --> 00:40:19,395
greg maxwell pointed out you know bitcoin is distributed authoritarianism and if the entire

464
00:40:19,395 --> 00:40:24,475
network comes to a consensus to confiscate your coins well then your coins get confiscated i mean

465
00:40:24,475 --> 00:40:29,755
yeah like you know we like to think that we like to think that that bitcoin is like this magic

466
00:40:29,755 --> 00:40:35,315
thing that will never do anything hostile against any of its users. But if its users are doing

467
00:40:35,315 --> 00:40:40,415
things that are hostile to it, it needs to be able to protect itself. And so if 99% of the Bitcoin

468
00:40:40,415 --> 00:40:45,195
community comes to the agreement that we should change the rules, then we're going to change the

469
00:40:45,195 --> 00:40:50,355
rules. I mean, Bitcoin is a consensus system. Yeah, this was always true. And this was like,

470
00:40:50,355 --> 00:40:56,275
this is the deeper layer that people misunderstand. And when that works, by the way,

471
00:40:56,275 --> 00:41:01,675
then Bitcoin can only be better because we sort of define better. If we all agree,

472
00:41:01,895 --> 00:41:08,275
then it is better. Like, that's why we all agree. Like, so it can only evolve for the better. And

473
00:41:08,275 --> 00:41:14,515
when that light bulb moment happened for me, it was like, holy shit, this is like super evolution.

474
00:41:16,295 --> 00:41:23,635
It brings, you know, large human organizations back in line with human values. And this is what

475
00:41:23,635 --> 00:41:27,535
And this is what libertarianism tries to do, but I think misses the point a little bit.

476
00:41:27,875 --> 00:41:29,495
I think you, yeah, okay.

477
00:41:29,495 --> 00:41:47,362
I think there that you have the wrong impression of what I could read between the lines of that shit long thread about that where we had a back and forth with all sorts of people was that I think you have the wrong view because I think you think the people at the Narcabogo were libertarians basically

478
00:41:47,622 --> 00:41:50,342
But it's not the Rothbardian ethical stuff.

479
00:41:51,362 --> 00:41:54,142
I mean, it wasn't just those people.

480
00:41:54,362 --> 00:41:58,902
I mean, again, you're kind of doing what Nersch was doing with my complaint about IBD.

481
00:41:59,202 --> 00:42:01,202
You're just saying, oh, well, Chris didn't do it right.

482
00:42:01,202 --> 00:42:02,502
You know, he didn't make a serious decision.

483
00:42:02,502 --> 00:42:06,802
Okay, let's address the actual point then.

484
00:42:07,042 --> 00:42:10,282
Where do you think libertarianism is wrong about these points?

485
00:42:10,422 --> 00:42:11,622
What do you think we get wrong?

486
00:42:11,622 --> 00:42:16,162
I think it underestimates the importance of enforcing the rules.

487
00:42:16,882 --> 00:42:26,822
So basically it considers – it assumes that all humans have human values and that there are no humans that are psychopaths.

488
00:42:27,322 --> 00:42:27,502
No.

489
00:42:27,502 --> 00:42:41,622
If you have, there are, you know, there's a natural feature of evolution, which is that some humans that have otherwise human DNA become predators and parasites to other humans.

490
00:42:42,062 --> 00:42:43,382
And these are called psychopaths.

491
00:42:43,562 --> 00:42:53,822
And when you have these people, you have to treat them differently from other types of humans because they see you as another type, as a different type of organism.

492
00:42:53,822 --> 00:43:05,602
And so so with my example of, you know, if if you have an anthill in your backyard and you decide to destroy the anthill, you know, the ants might think, oh, no, you're you're infringing my property rights.

493
00:43:05,602 --> 00:43:13,022
But it doesn't matter because your shoe. Yeah, but I think. And so that's what psychopaths do. Right. Psychopaths say, well, I have more guns.

494
00:43:13,162 --> 00:43:20,002
And so it doesn't matter. Your rights don't matter. And so when you're dealing with those people, you have to you can't you can't treat them.

495
00:43:20,102 --> 00:43:22,322
You have to put them in jail or do something with them. Right.

496
00:43:22,322 --> 00:43:29,702
or no okay enforce the rule against those people yeah but i don't think this is uh the i don't at

497
00:43:29,702 --> 00:43:36,602
all think this is something libertarians miss or anarcho-capitalists miss i think anarcho-capitalists

498
00:43:36,602 --> 00:43:43,002
is the only group that is actually honest about what happens because we have these psychopaths

499
00:43:43,002 --> 00:43:50,062
because these psychopaths end up as state leaders always like and they they wage wars which is just

500
00:43:50,062 --> 00:43:57,882
basically mass murder it's fucking awful uh so so we we are the only ones daring to imagine a system

501
00:43:57,882 --> 00:44:03,942
where this can't even be possible where we recognize each other's rights to defend ourselves

502
00:44:03,942 --> 00:44:08,922
to the fullest right and well i don't know if you want to go through this this whole can of worms but

503
00:44:08,922 --> 00:44:14,222
i mean yeah i've done uh many many years of of deep reflection about all these questions and i've

504
00:44:14,222 --> 00:44:18,542
hung out with a lot of people who call themselves anarcho-capitalists and i've hung out with even uh

505
00:44:18,542 --> 00:44:25,982
even leaders of the anarcho-capitalist movement, you know, people who are widely influential in the libertarian movement.

506
00:44:26,162 --> 00:44:33,022
So, I mean, just to dismiss me as, oh, the anarcho-pulco people won, you know, and he got the wrong idea.

507
00:44:33,022 --> 00:44:40,522
No, I'm saying that that's the vibe I got from that thread, because I read a lot of the responses you were giving

508
00:44:40,522 --> 00:44:46,042
were not addressing the actual, you know, Hoppean argumentation ethics and the non-aggression principle.

509
00:44:46,042 --> 00:44:55,302
You were misrepresenting those by not admitting that punishment is very much a thing in anarcho-capitalism.

510
00:44:57,422 --> 00:45:06,662
But when you actually go and hang out in libertarian or anarcho-capitalist society, see, this is the problem with anarcho-capitalists is they don't apply their ideas to reality.

511
00:45:06,862 --> 00:45:11,702
They just talk about their ideas and they imagine futures and then they don't actually go and try it.

512
00:45:11,702 --> 00:45:13,562
And so what I'm saying is I tried it.

513
00:45:13,562 --> 00:45:18,482
I hung out with people who were who were freedom minded and were who called themselves anarcho-capitalist.

514
00:45:18,782 --> 00:45:23,502
And we tried to make a society that worked on anarcho-capitalist principles.

515
00:45:23,502 --> 00:45:25,282
And it doesn't work. And you know why it doesn't work?

516
00:45:25,282 --> 00:45:27,642
Because the psychopaths come in and they take over.

517
00:45:27,902 --> 00:45:31,682
And then you have to make a state either out of either the psychopaths make a state.

518
00:45:31,922 --> 00:45:36,282
And now you just have, you know, a constant state of war where you have to make a state to fight off the psychopaths.

519
00:45:36,922 --> 00:45:40,522
And then the psychopaths come and take over whatever state that you made.

520
00:45:40,522 --> 00:45:50,682
okay i would just not frame that as it not working because it is like the there is no working or not

521
00:45:50,682 --> 00:45:55,742
working since it's not a political ideology it's just a lens through to view the world through

522
00:45:55,742 --> 00:46:01,862
which is more honest than every other lens is is it is it honest if you can't apply it in the real

523
00:46:01,862 --> 00:46:06,442
world what i'm saying is you need to actually take into account incentives you need to take

524
00:46:06,442 --> 00:46:12,482
into account the economics of violence okay okay so so the way i see it is that two plus two will

525
00:46:12,482 --> 00:46:18,962
still equal four regardless if there's a psychopath on top telling everyone that it equals five

526
00:46:18,962 --> 00:46:25,322
it still equals four and the same is true for hopian argumentation ethics you cannot argue

527
00:46:25,322 --> 00:46:32,182
against that you control your own body because by doing the argumentation i need to control my body

528
00:46:32,182 --> 00:46:35,702
So thereby I prove that human beings have control over their bodies.

529
00:46:36,122 --> 00:46:39,622
So it's the same kind of axiomatic thinking as mathematics.

530
00:46:40,042 --> 00:46:42,762
It only works as long as the other person buys into your system.

531
00:46:43,022 --> 00:46:44,542
If a psychopath says –

532
00:46:44,542 --> 00:46:46,502
As a worldview, it still works.

533
00:46:46,522 --> 00:46:49,762
If a psychopath says 2 plus 2 equals 5 or I'm going to shoot you, then –

534
00:46:49,762 --> 00:46:50,802
No, no, no.

535
00:46:51,002 --> 00:46:52,022
You're missing my point.

536
00:46:52,122 --> 00:46:52,982
You're missing my point.

537
00:46:53,362 --> 00:46:56,742
It still doesn't invalidate the non-aggression principle.

538
00:46:57,022 --> 00:46:59,802
It's just someone violating it.

539
00:46:59,802 --> 00:47:01,942
It still doesn't make it less true.

540
00:47:02,182 --> 00:47:06,722
Because it's still true that we would all be better off if we didn't aggress against one another.

541
00:47:06,822 --> 00:47:11,222
And there's no justification for aggression, no natural justification for it.

542
00:47:11,302 --> 00:47:15,242
That is still true, regardless of if someone violates it or not.

543
00:47:15,242 --> 00:47:18,782
Canute, the history of all of humanity.

544
00:47:19,902 --> 00:47:20,162
Yeah.

545
00:47:21,462 --> 00:47:25,582
There are incentives to violence.

546
00:47:25,722 --> 00:47:28,502
If there were not incentives to violence, then people would not be violent.

547
00:47:28,742 --> 00:47:30,242
But the fact that there's violence.

548
00:47:30,242 --> 00:47:31,062
every other way.

549
00:47:31,062 --> 00:47:31,622
Okay.

550
00:47:31,882 --> 00:47:33,362
There are incentives to violence.

551
00:47:34,042 --> 00:47:36,182
We're talking over each other's heads here

552
00:47:36,182 --> 00:47:39,282
because my response to that would be,

553
00:47:39,622 --> 00:47:41,922
yeah, but what's a priori about human history?

554
00:47:42,042 --> 00:47:42,282
Nothing.

555
00:47:42,602 --> 00:47:45,022
Like you can say two plus two equals five

556
00:47:45,022 --> 00:47:47,802
because people have believed that for 10,000 years.

557
00:47:47,982 --> 00:47:48,982
It's still not five.

558
00:47:50,082 --> 00:47:53,462
A priori systems are not useful.

559
00:47:53,802 --> 00:47:55,362
The reason why mathematics is useful,

560
00:47:55,502 --> 00:47:56,702
mathematics does not say anything

561
00:47:56,702 --> 00:47:57,782
about underlying reality.

562
00:47:57,782 --> 00:48:01,582
Mathematics is a language that humans can use to describe reality.

563
00:48:02,062 --> 00:48:03,422
And so it's very useful at that.

564
00:48:03,702 --> 00:48:08,062
But there are alternate forms of mathematics that rely on alternate axioms.

565
00:48:08,522 --> 00:48:14,782
And so, you know, if you just take if you take different axioms, yeah, true, then you have a completely different system.

566
00:48:14,882 --> 00:48:18,882
And this is what and this is the problem that I have with praxeology and and Kansa.

567
00:48:18,882 --> 00:48:29,002
They just declare that, oh, this is true, and we're not going to worry about collecting evidence about whether our system is true or not.

568
00:48:29,702 --> 00:48:31,142
And that's precisely the problem.

569
00:48:31,262 --> 00:48:41,422
If you build a system on top of axioms that are not viable, then you'll end up with a system that causes more harm than good.

570
00:48:42,302 --> 00:48:45,622
And so that's what libertarians and anarcho-capitalists often do.

571
00:48:45,622 --> 00:48:49,442
They take these axioms to be true, and they're not, right?

572
00:48:49,782 --> 00:48:53,702
They're true, and these systems work as long as everybody buys into the system.

573
00:48:54,162 --> 00:48:58,022
But as soon as you have a psychopath that doesn't buy into the system, now you have to deal with that.

574
00:48:58,322 --> 00:49:01,842
You have to deal with the incentive for the other person to just come in.

575
00:49:03,222 --> 00:49:04,822
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but okay, okay.

576
00:49:04,882 --> 00:49:06,622
We'd see more anarcho-capitalist systems, wouldn't we?

577
00:49:07,162 --> 00:49:08,382
Well, absolutely.

578
00:49:08,562 --> 00:49:13,922
We would see more anarcho-capitalistic systems if there weren't psychopaths in the world.

579
00:49:13,922 --> 00:49:20,722
I absolutely 100% agree with that because the psychopaths are the ones violating the non-aggression principle.

580
00:49:21,522 --> 00:49:25,682
We should design systems that take into account the existence of the psychopaths.

581
00:49:25,682 --> 00:49:26,722
Okay, who's we?

582
00:49:29,102 --> 00:49:31,042
People trying to build better systems.

583
00:49:31,662 --> 00:49:33,922
Yeah, but so...

584
00:49:34,802 --> 00:49:36,962
Well, I think that big winners are trying to build better systems.

585
00:49:37,402 --> 00:49:41,222
I think that the big winners are here is because we're trying to make a better system than what came before.

586
00:49:41,222 --> 00:49:50,422
Yeah, and that's why we're building it on Austrian principles, which is the same branch of science that leads to anarcho-capitalism.

587
00:49:50,662 --> 00:49:54,022
I think we should build a new system on principles that work in reality.

588
00:49:54,182 --> 00:50:06,642
I think we should take into account reality and evidence and history instead of trying to just kind of intuit this utopia that is not actually applicable when you try to put it into the real world.

589
00:50:06,642 --> 00:50:18,502
Yeah, but okay, once again, I'm just defending my personal view here because I don't view it as a system that you transition into and all of a sudden you live in Ancapistan.

590
00:50:18,502 --> 00:50:29,402
I just view it as a lens to view the world through, to acknowledge to yourself what is justifiable behavior and what is not.

591
00:50:30,182 --> 00:50:36,342
And it's super simple because what can be true for all humans at all times?

592
00:50:36,342 --> 00:50:39,062
And the only universal principle is property rights.

593
00:50:39,142 --> 00:50:41,762
It's like, you cannot violate my property.

594
00:50:42,202 --> 00:50:47,542
Like, if we don't get closer to that, we get less civilized.

595
00:50:47,742 --> 00:50:50,282
If we get closer to that, we get more civilized.

596
00:50:50,682 --> 00:50:52,422
Like, it's so basic.

597
00:50:52,762 --> 00:51:00,002
And also, I'd like to hear you try to refute one of the praxeological axioms.

598
00:51:00,162 --> 00:51:04,722
You may pick whichever one you use and just argue against it.

599
00:51:04,722 --> 00:51:13,142
impossible to refute an axiom do you know what an axiom is it's it's fine to be true so you can't

600
00:51:13,142 --> 00:51:18,922
be like no no no but okay let me say principles instead let's say principles instead i'm using

601
00:51:18,922 --> 00:51:25,042
the word wrong uh so one of the austrian economics principles one of the praxeological principles

602
00:51:25,042 --> 00:51:32,522
can you argue against it like for instance human action is purposeful behavior can you argue against

603
00:51:32,522 --> 00:51:39,462
that or yes in most cases right so what i'm saying is that yes the principles of libertarianism and

604
00:51:39,462 --> 00:51:44,742
anarcho-capitalism and and austrian economics are are good principles in theory but in practice

605
00:51:44,742 --> 00:51:50,022
there are people who are going to ignore that system and are going to ignore those principles

606
00:51:50,022 --> 00:51:54,362
and if you don't do something about that if you don't do something about people who are ignoring

607
00:51:54,362 --> 00:51:58,342
your system then your system is going to get eaten either from the outside or from the inside

608
00:51:58,342 --> 00:52:04,922
And that's what we always see with decentralized systems that try to provide decentralized collective defense.

609
00:52:05,062 --> 00:52:12,262
But doing something about it that does not violate the non-aggression principle.

610
00:52:12,522 --> 00:52:16,002
Defense is not violation of the non-aggression principle.

611
00:52:16,382 --> 00:52:23,422
In fact, there's a book by Rothbard called The Ethics of Liberty that allows the victim to do what's it called?

612
00:52:24,162 --> 00:52:25,762
Reparation and retribution.

613
00:52:25,762 --> 00:52:28,222
So it's basically two eyes for one eye.

614
00:52:28,342 --> 00:52:30,442
That's what the victim is entitled to.

615
00:52:30,662 --> 00:52:37,682
So none of this trying to fight psychopaths, none of that breaks the non-aggression principle at all.

616
00:52:38,022 --> 00:52:39,002
Like it's defense.

617
00:52:39,242 --> 00:52:40,562
We're allowed to do that.

618
00:52:41,042 --> 00:52:44,102
No, aggression is when you initiate violence.

619
00:52:44,102 --> 00:52:45,582
It's not when you defend yourself.

620
00:52:46,802 --> 00:52:47,002
I know.

621
00:52:47,122 --> 00:52:51,722
I'm saying if it works, then show me an example.

622
00:52:51,902 --> 00:52:52,682
It doesn't work.

623
00:52:52,682 --> 00:52:58,082
while you're deliberating about who has what rights and you know you're you're litigating you

624
00:52:58,082 --> 00:53:04,382
know oh who infringed on who first the psychopaths are are stealing everything they're just they're

625
00:53:04,382 --> 00:53:09,942
just going in and saying you aggressed on me first and they're just lying and then everybody has to go

626
00:53:09,942 --> 00:53:15,002
and it's it's way easier to spread bullshit than to disprove bullshit uh have you heard that saying

627
00:53:15,002 --> 00:53:20,922
like it's like a bunch of bullshit and that just it just dedosses everyone's time and attention

628
00:53:20,922 --> 00:53:28,902
And then while you're trying to deliberate on who did what wrong, they've stolen everything and killed everyone.

629
00:53:29,782 --> 00:53:32,322
Yeah, and that's what we're living in now.

630
00:53:32,422 --> 00:53:33,062
And it sucks.

631
00:53:34,262 --> 00:53:34,362
Yeah.

632
00:53:34,822 --> 00:53:37,882
So now let me just – let me just have you.

633
00:53:38,942 --> 00:53:41,382
Can I just slightly reframe?

634
00:53:41,522 --> 00:53:45,422
Because I think you don't get how I view the world.

635
00:53:45,422 --> 00:53:53,822
I think we live in Ankapistan, and I think it's unfortunate that we're not defending ourselves properly because we're being attacked all the time.

636
00:53:54,302 --> 00:53:59,882
But that does not change the fact that we cannot not live in Ankapistan.

637
00:54:01,082 --> 00:54:09,182
The only principle that can be justified is the non-aggression principle, and you can call it theoretical all day long and that it doesn't apply to reality.

638
00:54:10,442 --> 00:54:13,762
Just as I said, it's the same as 2 plus 2 equals 4.

639
00:54:13,762 --> 00:54:22,782
And to apply that to reality, a noun like two plus two apples equals four apples, then all of a sudden the mathematics is reality.

640
00:54:23,202 --> 00:54:26,362
And the same is true for the praxeological principles.

641
00:54:27,182 --> 00:54:31,502
Right. As long as your interpretation of the rules is the same as other people's interpretation of the rules.

642
00:54:31,642 --> 00:54:33,942
No, they're true regardless. That's the whole point.

643
00:54:34,282 --> 00:54:37,302
No, no, no. They're true regardless. That's the whole point.

644
00:54:37,302 --> 00:54:41,942
They do not rely on other people's opinions.

645
00:54:42,522 --> 00:54:46,862
That's the whole beauty of the system, and they do not require empirical evidence.

646
00:54:46,862 --> 00:54:55,382
In order to use mathematics, you need to be able to interpret the statements that mathematics says in a way that other people are going to interpret it.

647
00:54:55,762 --> 00:55:00,502
If you're using the rules of mathematics in a way that nobody else is using, then it's totally useless.

648
00:55:01,462 --> 00:55:08,362
Yeah, but two plus two apples is still going to equal four apples, regardless of people's interpretation and language.

649
00:55:08,362 --> 00:55:13,222
I can think of an interpretation in which two plus two apples does not equal four apples.

650
00:55:13,222 --> 00:55:14,222
Okay.

651
00:55:14,222 --> 00:55:15,622
There's this rule again.

652
00:55:15,622 --> 00:55:21,322
So like you're assuming that other people are interpreting the world in the same way that you're interpreting the world.

653
00:55:21,322 --> 00:55:22,302
That's not always true.

654
00:55:22,302 --> 00:55:26,422
People people have have all sorts of different ways of interpreting things.

655
00:55:26,422 --> 00:55:29,922
No, they come to a common understanding of those things.

656
00:55:29,922 --> 00:55:32,942
It's not your rule system is not going to apply to reality.

657
00:55:32,989 --> 00:56:02,969
It's not rules.

658
00:56:02,989 --> 00:56:10,549
the two realms together. So therefore, studying that is the most crucial thing to understanding

659
00:56:10,549 --> 00:56:15,669
how people can organize each other and find... What I'm saying is if other people have different

660
00:56:15,669 --> 00:56:20,389
goals from the rest of society, then you're still not going to be able to coordinate with those

661
00:56:20,389 --> 00:56:27,769
people. I know, I know. I'm failing to do that all the time. And so are you. Like we have a lot

662
00:56:27,769 --> 00:56:33,169
people that we have different opinions with and people we hate what they do but we can't influence

663
00:56:33,169 --> 00:56:37,689
it right so so let me let me extend an olive branch i think there is actually a resolution

664
00:56:37,689 --> 00:56:43,169
to this this conversation because i had this exact argument in my head over many years and

665
00:56:43,169 --> 00:56:47,589
my resolution is if you if you read the sovereign individual the book i think it explains what the

666
00:56:47,589 --> 00:56:53,249
resolution is the resolution is that in times where so you have this this concept of economics

667
00:56:53,249 --> 00:56:58,869
of violence. And according to the book, you know, it flips every 500 years. And sometimes offense

668
00:56:58,869 --> 00:57:03,909
is more efficient than defense. And then you get a society that's very, very offensive and very,

669
00:57:03,989 --> 00:57:08,229
very violent. And then you get central banks and you get gunpowder and you get basically invading

670
00:57:08,229 --> 00:57:13,369
is cheaper than defending. And then after 500 years, it flips again. And then you see a lot

671
00:57:13,369 --> 00:57:16,989
of castles, you know, and you see a lot of decentralization of political power and you

672
00:57:16,989 --> 00:57:22,329
see a lot of sort of fragmentation of the state. And so what they say is that Bitcoin is going to

673
00:57:22,329 --> 00:57:24,769
bring about this flipping, right?

674
00:57:25,629 --> 00:57:30,749
They don't specifically say, great book, but they don't specifically say Bitcoin, right?

675
00:57:30,789 --> 00:57:32,189
Because it's written in 1999.

676
00:57:32,509 --> 00:57:33,849
Right, but they say, yes, exactly.

677
00:57:34,049 --> 00:57:36,149
It was amazing that they wrote that in 1997.

678
00:57:36,529 --> 00:57:38,289
Yeah, something like Bitcoin.

679
00:57:38,429 --> 00:57:38,689
Yeah, yeah.

680
00:57:38,849 --> 00:57:41,669
And I use this analogy all the time.

681
00:57:41,669 --> 00:57:48,149
I talk about, you know, a spear and a sword and then eventually a shield and then a bigger

682
00:57:48,149 --> 00:57:55,669
sword and then a knight in armor and then a gun and then castle walls. We flip back and forth and

683
00:57:55,669 --> 00:58:01,569
then atomic bombs. And now we're all, we've been stuck in this offense Mexican standoff between

684
00:58:01,569 --> 00:58:06,989
states for a very long time. And all of a sudden, yeah, I had to talk about this too, like the

685
00:58:06,989 --> 00:58:12,069
similarities between Oppenheimer and Satoshi Nakamoto, because I think what they both did

686
00:58:12,069 --> 00:58:17,929
was find a way to use the power of physics to change human incentive structures.

687
00:58:18,149 --> 00:58:23,949
It's just that one did it very violently and very aggressively and the other very defensively.

688
00:58:24,449 --> 00:58:26,209
And I think that that's the beauty.

689
00:58:26,329 --> 00:58:33,709
And if that is this flippening that it promises to be, that's why I'm so fucking bullish on Bitcoin, because I love this.

690
00:58:33,789 --> 00:58:35,949
So I think we're very close here.

691
00:58:36,049 --> 00:58:38,189
And I think we have similar views.

692
00:58:38,289 --> 00:58:43,129
I think we have semantic differences for some things and mainly, yeah.

693
00:58:43,629 --> 00:58:45,409
So this is the problem, right?

694
00:58:45,409 --> 00:58:51,049
The problem that I have, and it's the core problem, the difference that I have with core devs is this view.

695
00:58:51,949 --> 00:58:59,969
Again, after many years of hanging out with anarcho-capitalists, I realized that they didn't actually have a mechanism for implementing their ideas.

696
00:59:00,289 --> 00:59:02,629
Their mechanism was always, oh, we're going to educate people.

697
00:59:02,629 --> 00:59:09,729
We're just going to get the word out, and then everybody is just like the scales are going to fall from everyone's eyes, and they're going to realize, oh, the government is a big fraud.

698
00:59:09,729 --> 00:59:16,129
But Larkin Rose talking about the most dangerous superstition, that somebody has authority over you.

699
00:59:16,189 --> 00:59:18,469
People are just going to realize that authority is a bad thing.

700
00:59:18,609 --> 00:59:20,389
And it's like, no, that's not going to happen.

701
00:59:20,389 --> 00:59:31,249
And the reason why that's not going to happen is because the incentives of the current technological regime are forcing everybody to continue this game that we're playing this very violent game.

702
00:59:31,249 --> 00:59:40,049
But if, and this is why I'm such a big Bitcoiner, if Bitcoin becomes the reserve asset of the world, now we are no longer going to have a fiat standard, which causes violence.

703
00:59:40,189 --> 00:59:42,389
We're going to have a Bitcoin standard, which causes peace.

704
00:59:42,869 --> 00:59:48,109
And then maybe we can have the anarcho-capitalist utopia, otherwise known as Ancapistan.

705
00:59:49,109 --> 00:59:50,609
I think that's beautiful.

706
00:59:50,609 --> 00:59:52,729
And it's so close to what I think.

707
00:59:52,729 --> 00:59:59,729
One of my earliest semi-viral tweets was like, being a libertarian without being a Bitcoiner is futile.

708
00:59:59,729 --> 01:00:07,529
futile and i still believe that like exactly exactly but i can still be an anarcho-capitalist

709
01:00:07,529 --> 01:00:14,009
at heart and have an austrian view of the world but i also understand that for me to have any more

710
01:00:14,009 --> 01:00:19,969
freedoms for myself in my life i need to be a betcoiner there's no other way like and i've

711
01:00:19,969 --> 01:00:25,549
fully accepted that for a decade now and that's i i love it and as you and as you said i completely

712
01:00:25,549 --> 01:00:30,369
agree that anarcho-capitalism and the non-aggression principle are good, as you say, lenses through

713
01:00:30,369 --> 01:00:34,189
which to view the world. I think that's useful because then you can find other people who

714
01:00:34,189 --> 01:00:37,389
are also viewing the world through that lens and you can be very good friends with those

715
01:00:37,389 --> 01:00:40,449
people and you can cultivate those relationships and those become those bear fruit.

716
01:00:40,449 --> 01:00:45,389
Then we're on the same page. But it's like when we argued in that thread, I think we

717
01:00:45,389 --> 01:00:53,229
had a disagreement about the word fee because I cannot view a tax as a fee because a fee

718
01:00:53,229 --> 01:00:54,969
to me is consensual.

719
01:00:54,969 --> 01:01:08,689
So, again, I think that you and I already agree that we are already living in Anikapistan, right? So if you look at Anikapistan, Anikapistan has private security agencies instead of public security agencies. And that's kind of the only difference.

720
01:01:09,389 --> 01:01:17,189
More than regular police officers, actually. Around the world, there are more security guards than police officers, like private police.

721
01:01:17,209 --> 01:01:18,069
Yes, but that's irrelevant.

722
01:01:18,709 --> 01:01:20,849
No, I think it's very relevant.

723
01:01:21,049 --> 01:01:22,729
Explain why. I'll explain why it's irrelevant.

724
01:01:22,729 --> 01:01:27,009
It's irrelevant because those security guards are operating within monopolies on violence.

725
01:01:27,409 --> 01:01:35,289
So security guards, like a security guard in Texas is answering to the police force of the state.

726
01:01:35,289 --> 01:01:39,329
And that police force is answering to the state police force.

727
01:01:39,329 --> 01:01:42,109
And that police force is answering to the national police force.

728
01:01:42,529 --> 01:01:42,989
Absolutely.

729
01:01:43,209 --> 01:01:44,829
At the international level, we have Ancapistan.

730
01:01:45,069 --> 01:01:48,029
At the international level, things are completely anarchic.

731
01:01:48,509 --> 01:01:49,729
So we already live in Ancapistan.

732
01:01:49,729 --> 01:01:53,149
in Kapistan. It's just that things are way more centralized than everybody wants.

733
01:01:53,709 --> 01:01:58,149
It's just like the criminal gangs are too big. That's the only problem, really.

734
01:01:58,349 --> 01:02:03,549
And that's why Trump can go and just pick Maduro out of the country and stuff like that,

735
01:02:03,909 --> 01:02:06,209
because that's an ANCAP move.

736
01:02:08,109 --> 01:02:11,989
Well, and again, that's what would happen. That's what happens with competing security

737
01:02:11,989 --> 01:02:17,189
organizations. If you have the big dog, which is the US, and you have the small dog in Venezuela,

738
01:02:17,189 --> 01:02:19,629
But the small dog is going to push the small dog around.

739
01:02:20,069 --> 01:02:20,749
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

740
01:02:20,829 --> 01:02:22,089
And I totally agree with that.

741
01:02:22,289 --> 01:02:24,149
It still doesn't justify it.

742
01:02:24,149 --> 01:02:42,169
What I wanted to point out was that the fact that there are more private security guards hints at that there's absolutely market demand for that and that people are willing to pay to be secured against whatever the criminal organization on top cannot take care of.

743
01:02:42,829 --> 01:02:42,849
Right.

744
01:02:42,849 --> 01:02:51,449
But so what I'm saying is the difference between Antcapistan and what we have now is immaterial, except that Antcaps want everything to be more decentralized than they are now.

745
01:02:52,209 --> 01:02:59,169
So, like, for instance, so they say, oh, we want everybody to pay a private security agency to secure their property rights.

746
01:02:59,609 --> 01:03:05,969
Right. So, like, you have these defense, you know, you have these dispute resolution organizations and you have these private security agencies.

747
01:03:05,969 --> 01:03:08,589
Or cities or even countries.

748
01:03:08,989 --> 01:03:10,969
Like, they could all be consensual.

749
01:03:11,629 --> 01:03:17,449
If I can leave whenever I want, and if it has sound money, then I have no problem with that.

750
01:03:17,609 --> 01:03:19,129
Then a country can be any size.

751
01:03:19,649 --> 01:03:19,969
Like, it's just...

752
01:03:20,549 --> 01:03:24,369
If you own property in Ancapistan, you're still paying property taxes.

753
01:03:24,649 --> 01:03:26,089
The only difference is that it's not a property tax.

754
01:03:26,089 --> 01:03:26,969
No, you're paying fees.

755
01:03:27,049 --> 01:03:27,869
It's a property fee.

756
01:03:28,229 --> 01:03:28,249
Exactly.

757
01:03:28,329 --> 01:03:28,469
Yeah.

758
01:03:28,549 --> 01:03:28,929
Yeah.

759
01:03:29,249 --> 01:03:29,709
Yeah.

760
01:03:29,709 --> 01:03:46,033
So what I saying is if I consent to pay my property tax on my property today right now if I already consenting then I already live in Ancapistan as far as I concerned Yeah and that good for you if you do consent

761
01:03:46,293 --> 01:03:50,833
But I'm saying that you couldn't live where you live without paying that.

762
01:03:50,933 --> 01:03:53,873
You have no competing fee of service.

763
01:03:54,413 --> 01:03:56,393
Right, but the tax is not on living here.

764
01:03:56,553 --> 01:03:58,053
The tax is on owning property here.

765
01:03:58,253 --> 01:04:02,553
And that's appropriate in my opinion because the government is protecting my property rights.

766
01:04:02,933 --> 01:04:06,133
Well, I would say it means that you don't want to defend me.

767
01:04:06,653 --> 01:04:10,213
I would say that it proves that it's not your property.

768
01:04:10,733 --> 01:04:14,213
You're living there under by permission.

769
01:04:14,213 --> 01:04:19,913
You have the permission to live in that house because they decide what it costs you to live there.

770
01:04:20,373 --> 01:04:20,573
Exactly.

771
01:04:20,753 --> 01:04:23,973
So ANCAPs should not be complaining that they have to pay property taxes.

772
01:04:24,233 --> 01:04:26,013
They should be complaining that, well.

773
01:04:26,753 --> 01:04:29,633
Well, I wouldn't call it owning the house.

774
01:04:29,653 --> 01:04:31,073
Things are too expensive, right?

775
01:04:31,073 --> 01:04:33,073
I think people just think that taxes are too high.

776
01:04:33,193 --> 01:04:38,233
I think everybody would be totally fine paying fees to a security service if the fees were reasonable.

777
01:04:38,433 --> 01:04:42,653
But I think that most people feel that the taxes are higher than the benefits that they're getting.

778
01:04:43,353 --> 01:04:43,833
Absolutely.

779
01:04:44,213 --> 01:04:50,353
But I don't think they can be fair or low if they aren't consensual fees rather than taxes.

780
01:04:50,793 --> 01:04:51,633
But they are consensual.

781
01:04:51,633 --> 01:04:55,253
If I didn't consent to the tax, I would buy property in a different jurisdiction.

782
01:04:55,853 --> 01:04:57,833
So they are completely 100% consensual.

783
01:04:57,973 --> 01:04:59,133
That is not my definition.

784
01:04:59,133 --> 01:05:06,673
If you buy property and you are ignoring the fact that you're going to need to pay property taxes, you're a libertarian.

785
01:05:06,813 --> 01:05:08,353
You're just trying or you're a communist.

786
01:05:08,493 --> 01:05:11,533
You're just trying to get somebody else to provide services to you for free.

787
01:05:12,453 --> 01:05:13,753
No, no, no, no.

788
01:05:14,093 --> 01:05:19,413
You're misinterpreting what I'm saying because I'm saying that you don't really own the house.

789
01:05:19,513 --> 01:05:20,633
You never bought the house.

790
01:05:20,753 --> 01:05:23,353
You bought a permission to live in it for a certain purpose.

791
01:05:23,593 --> 01:05:25,873
And you don't know when they will change the rules.

792
01:05:25,873 --> 01:05:29,273
If they increase the tax, you didn't agree to that.

793
01:05:29,933 --> 01:05:36,653
So what I'm saying is if libertarians just viewed the government as the actual owner of the land, then everybody would be fine with everything.

794
01:05:37,273 --> 01:05:38,093
No, no, no.

795
01:05:38,733 --> 01:05:46,273
There's this sort of perception of fraud because you bought the title to the land and so you feel like, oh, I'm the owner of the land.

796
01:05:46,773 --> 01:05:47,273
But you're not.

797
01:05:47,793 --> 01:05:49,353
In reality, you're not.

798
01:05:49,513 --> 01:05:50,753
The government is the owner of the land.

799
01:05:50,753 --> 01:06:02,393
However, if the government just came out and said that and they were like, we're renting parcels of land for $1,000 a year, but we're not going to pay property taxes, libertarians would be fine with that. It's the same thing.

800
01:06:03,453 --> 01:06:05,753
Let's get into the merge conversation again, shall we?

801
01:06:05,833 --> 01:06:07,293
Right, yeah, we went a little off the track.

802
01:06:07,413 --> 01:06:18,073
We're going to go in circles here, I'm afraid. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, where are we going into that then? Is there anywhere else in that that you think is super important to point out?

803
01:06:18,073 --> 01:06:25,013
yeah i mean okay here's here's one 1330 knut thinks utxo sharing is not important

804
01:06:25,013 --> 01:06:30,153
is incorrect in this it's very important but filtering spam has nothing to do with

805
01:06:30,153 --> 01:06:39,573
so why is that important yes um you you said something like uh um what is it yeah utxo sharing

806
01:06:39,573 --> 01:06:45,393
merch said scaling bitcoin to the world is important which i agree with um and i hope

807
01:06:45,393 --> 01:06:46,213
that you agree with.

808
01:06:46,733 --> 01:06:47,073
Absolutely.

809
01:06:47,333 --> 01:06:48,193
Now that we've both said,

810
01:06:48,233 --> 01:06:48,493
you know,

811
01:06:48,573 --> 01:06:50,293
that Bitcoin success

812
01:06:50,293 --> 01:06:51,133
as a medium of exchange

813
01:06:51,133 --> 01:06:52,633
is important to Bitcoin success overall.

814
01:06:53,673 --> 01:06:55,013
So UTXO sharing

815
01:06:55,013 --> 01:06:55,873
is how Bitcoin scales.

816
01:06:56,613 --> 01:06:57,473
And Merch was correct

817
01:06:57,473 --> 01:06:58,333
to point out that Lightning

818
01:06:58,333 --> 01:06:59,773
is a UTXO sharing scheme.

819
01:06:59,893 --> 01:07:00,233
If you have,

820
01:07:00,353 --> 01:07:01,213
do you have a Lightning node

821
01:07:01,213 --> 01:07:01,973
or a Lightning channel?

822
01:07:02,033 --> 01:07:02,553
Yeah, yeah.

823
01:07:03,313 --> 01:07:03,933
So a Lightning channel

824
01:07:03,933 --> 01:07:05,033
is a bilateral agreement

825
01:07:05,033 --> 01:07:07,593
where you're sharing a UTXO

826
01:07:07,593 --> 01:07:09,573
with your counterparty.

827
01:07:10,233 --> 01:07:11,093
And so Lightning

828
01:07:11,093 --> 01:07:12,953
is a very basic UTXO sharing scheme

829
01:07:12,953 --> 01:07:15,113
where you can share this UTXO

830
01:07:15,113 --> 01:07:17,273
as a two of two multi-sig with your counterparty.

831
01:07:17,273 --> 01:07:18,813
And you can have a bunch of these together

832
01:07:18,813 --> 01:07:20,653
and that forms the lightning, you know,

833
01:07:20,693 --> 01:07:21,213
that forms the lightning.

834
01:07:21,313 --> 01:07:21,573
Yeah, yeah.

835
01:07:21,993 --> 01:07:25,053
But there's more complex forms of UTXO sharing

836
01:07:25,053 --> 01:07:26,993
like ARK and up from there, right?

837
01:07:27,333 --> 01:07:30,053
Infinitely many ways you can share UTXOs with other people.

838
01:07:30,173 --> 01:07:31,633
And those are really how we scale Bitcoin

839
01:07:31,633 --> 01:07:33,673
because those are how we make effectively,

840
01:07:33,933 --> 01:07:37,073
you know, full reserve, full reserve Bitcoin,

841
01:07:37,273 --> 01:07:39,693
full reserve unilateral exit Bitcoin,

842
01:07:40,033 --> 01:07:41,093
not banks exactly.

843
01:07:41,293 --> 01:07:43,973
What do they call perfect money substitutes?

844
01:07:43,973 --> 01:07:50,013
You know, these things that that that seamlessly substitute for Bitcoin, like Lightning and ARK and things like that.

845
01:07:50,213 --> 01:07:59,873
I think it's important for Bitcoiners to draw a distinction between those types of constructions and things like Citria, which are one of Entrust model, which are not fully trustless.

846
01:07:59,873 --> 01:08:07,953
Because if you if you start building things that are not fully trustless and you put, you know, a majority of the capital into those systems.

847
01:08:09,413 --> 01:08:11,773
Then you get exactly what happened to gold, right?

848
01:08:11,773 --> 01:08:16,233
You get basically everybody treats the paper version of the gold as the real gold.

849
01:08:17,093 --> 01:08:21,653
And once you have that, then you have this sort of subversion and you no longer have sound money.

850
01:08:22,933 --> 01:08:26,933
So this is super interesting because like some philosophical questions here then.

851
01:08:27,653 --> 01:08:30,533
And this is wonderful to be talking to a developer about this.

852
01:08:30,953 --> 01:08:35,893
Because if now SegWit enabled a lot of spam, let's just say that.

853
01:08:35,893 --> 01:08:39,353
Or SegWit got implemented and the spam happened.

854
01:08:39,353 --> 01:08:41,813
And that's empirical, you know.

855
01:08:42,613 --> 01:08:42,873
Yeah.

856
01:08:43,013 --> 01:08:46,513
So Segwit slightly encouraged more spamming.

857
01:08:46,793 --> 01:08:50,673
But there have always been ways of cramming data into the Bitcoin block.

858
01:08:50,693 --> 01:08:51,193
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

859
01:08:51,193 --> 01:08:51,993
It's in the document.

860
01:08:52,173 --> 01:08:52,553
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

861
01:08:52,573 --> 01:08:53,833
There's always been ways of doing that.

862
01:08:53,933 --> 01:08:55,753
And the only way to fight that is by filtering it.

863
01:08:56,233 --> 01:09:02,253
So the fact that it's slightly cheaper, yeah, may have affected sort of the optics around inscriptions when they came up.

864
01:09:02,853 --> 01:09:03,333
Okay.

865
01:09:03,513 --> 01:09:07,773
So let me do an abstract example instead, like a thought experiment.

866
01:09:07,773 --> 01:09:12,293
If now, like, so we're living in the timeline we're living in.

867
01:09:12,453 --> 01:09:15,773
And in this timeline, Segwit was implemented, Taproot was implemented.

868
01:09:16,753 --> 01:09:19,573
The Lightning Network happened before Taproot was implemented.

869
01:09:19,793 --> 01:09:21,113
But, like, Lightning happened there.

870
01:09:21,413 --> 01:09:23,813
Everyone's happy because now Lightning exists.

871
01:09:23,913 --> 01:09:24,693
It's fucking awesome.

872
01:09:25,373 --> 01:09:26,093
We're doing that.

873
01:09:26,213 --> 01:09:27,893
Most of it is custodial, but who cares?

874
01:09:27,993 --> 01:09:32,893
It's still way better than banking, fractional reserve banking, so on and so forth.

875
01:09:33,033 --> 01:09:36,273
But also, 2023, spam goes up.

876
01:09:36,873 --> 01:09:38,913
Like if there was...

877
01:09:38,913 --> 01:09:40,853
Did you say we're okay with it being custodial?

878
01:09:40,913 --> 01:09:41,653
Because I'm not okay with that.

879
01:09:42,193 --> 01:09:42,633
No, no, no.

880
01:09:42,633 --> 01:09:45,373
But most people are okay with using custodial lightning.

881
01:09:45,533 --> 01:09:47,473
I think Bitcoiners should not be okay with that.

882
01:09:47,693 --> 01:09:48,553
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

883
01:09:48,633 --> 01:09:50,233
No, no, I can agree with that.

884
01:09:50,233 --> 01:09:54,853
So we're living in this world where Bitcoin is fantastic,

885
01:09:55,133 --> 01:09:59,073
but we have this spam issue that happened February 2023.

886
01:09:59,793 --> 01:10:04,313
So let's say if I pose an alternative timeline

887
01:10:04,313 --> 01:10:07,913
where SegWit was worked on for longer

888
01:10:07,913 --> 01:10:10,513
and Taproot 2 and weren't implemented,

889
01:10:11,113 --> 01:10:13,413
but were more carefully implemented

890
01:10:13,413 --> 01:10:15,053
and we wouldn't have the Lightning Network,

891
01:10:15,453 --> 01:10:17,213
but we wouldn't have the spam.

892
01:10:17,573 --> 01:10:19,813
Would you have preferred that timeline

893
01:10:19,813 --> 01:10:21,333
to the one you're living in now?

894
01:10:22,673 --> 01:10:23,893
I don't think so.

895
01:10:24,053 --> 01:10:25,673
Yeah, so there is this,

896
01:10:25,953 --> 01:10:27,893
that's a popular view on the not side.

897
01:10:27,893 --> 01:10:28,713
Oh, well, you know,

898
01:10:28,793 --> 01:10:30,413
why didn't we just take longer to do it?

899
01:10:30,493 --> 01:10:31,893
And then we would have come up with something better.

900
01:10:31,893 --> 01:10:39,613
and that's maybe true but that ignores the fact that by implementing it we were able to collect

901
01:10:39,613 --> 01:10:44,893
real world data on whether it would work and how it would fail so you know at the end of the day

902
01:10:44,893 --> 01:10:49,893
you have to do things if you never do anything and you just uh you just keep theorizing and you

903
01:10:49,893 --> 01:10:53,493
never apply your ideas in the real world then you're never going to find out whether there's

904
01:10:53,493 --> 01:10:58,993
those ideas actually if you never fuck around you'll never find out sure yeah yeah some fucking

905
01:10:58,993 --> 01:11:03,433
around yes that's that's that's beautiful some fucking around is is is necessary you know you

906
01:11:03,433 --> 01:11:08,333
have to kind of experiment with things otherwise you're never going to figure out what the real

907
01:11:08,333 --> 01:11:14,473
solutions are um and you know so i think the correct you know the the slow and team slow and

908
01:11:14,473 --> 01:11:18,313
steady as they're calling it on the internet i'm on team slow and steady i'm on i'm not on team

909
01:11:18,313 --> 01:11:22,213
stop right i think there actually are like actual ossificationists i don't find those people to be

910
01:11:22,213 --> 01:11:29,773
serious I think they know me neither yeah I don't think I can also fight I

911
01:11:29,773 --> 01:11:34,253
agree yeah there's always going to be a slightly different version of the rules

912
01:11:34,253 --> 01:11:49,657
that you know in the event of a fork would actually accrue more value in the free market so there there always going to be and because reality is always changing right So this is evolution right This is why biological forms of life

913
01:11:49,657 --> 01:11:51,357
are constantly evolving

914
01:11:51,357 --> 01:11:54,257
because the environment is constantly changing.

915
01:11:54,797 --> 01:11:57,917
And how could anyone ever prove that it had ossified?

916
01:11:58,277 --> 01:11:59,377
It's unprovable.

917
01:11:59,537 --> 01:12:00,677
You can't prove a negative, right?

918
01:12:00,937 --> 01:12:02,137
There's still people.

919
01:12:02,277 --> 01:12:04,037
People may choose other rules.

920
01:12:04,617 --> 01:12:04,917
Right, yeah.

921
01:12:04,917 --> 01:12:06,797
It's like saying, you know, evolution should ossify.

922
01:12:06,797 --> 01:12:09,037
It's like, okay, first of all, no.

923
01:12:09,217 --> 01:12:10,317
And second of all, that's impossible.

924
01:12:10,557 --> 01:12:14,117
Like if you tried to do that, you would end up destroying everything.

925
01:12:14,537 --> 01:12:17,237
So just like, let's go slow and steady.

926
01:12:17,717 --> 01:12:24,737
The Trodulites tried that or the cockroaches for a very long time.

927
01:12:25,077 --> 01:12:25,477
Anyway.

928
01:12:26,017 --> 01:12:26,877
Yes, there are.

929
01:12:27,017 --> 01:12:27,497
Yes, exactly.

930
01:12:27,637 --> 01:12:28,977
Like Bitcoin could be seen like a cockroach.

931
01:12:29,077 --> 01:12:30,857
You know, it's very, very, very durable.

932
01:12:31,377 --> 01:12:32,897
You know, very, very hard to kill.

933
01:12:33,517 --> 01:12:35,757
But it's still evolving slowly, you know.

934
01:12:35,757 --> 01:12:37,317
Or I would like to see it more like humans.

935
01:12:37,497 --> 01:12:44,317
You know, humans have been around for a while, but it's not impossible that we're just going to keep evolving, right?

936
01:12:44,397 --> 01:12:47,297
Like it seems, well, anyway, that's another whole conversation.

937
01:12:47,657 --> 01:12:51,057
But yeah, no, Bitcoin should not ossify with the current rule set.

938
01:12:51,057 --> 01:12:54,797
If Bitcoin ossifies with the current rule set, it will inevitably be captured, right?

939
01:12:54,817 --> 01:12:56,997
Because it doesn't work properly as a medium of exchange.

940
01:12:57,577 --> 01:13:00,657
And so there's no reason to expect it to perform better than gold in this respect.

941
01:13:00,757 --> 01:13:02,477
It will just get captured exactly the same as gold.

942
01:13:02,837 --> 01:13:03,917
So we have to keep scaling it.

943
01:13:03,917 --> 01:13:08,157
We have to make sure that it works as a medium of exchange for the world, for a global user base.

944
01:13:08,677 --> 01:13:12,377
Because if we don't, then there's no reason to expect Bitcoin to be more valuable than gold.

945
01:13:12,477 --> 01:13:18,317
There's no reason to expect people who are looking for a good store of value to buy Bitcoin instead of gold.

946
01:13:20,057 --> 01:13:21,257
No, absolutely agree.

947
01:13:21,377 --> 01:13:22,337
No disagreement there.

948
01:13:22,877 --> 01:13:24,157
Yeah, we were talking about UTXO sharing.

949
01:13:24,297 --> 01:13:26,497
Yeah, so Merch is correct.

950
01:13:26,497 --> 01:13:36,137
He said, oh, you know, Bitcoin has this flexible scripting language and Satoshi made this flexible scripting language so that we could evolve Bitcoin and have it do more interesting things.

951
01:13:36,357 --> 01:13:38,297
And I completely 100% agree with that.

952
01:13:38,577 --> 01:13:42,337
But Satoshi also made mempool filters.

953
01:13:42,597 --> 01:13:48,557
So he left the consensus rules perfectly flexible and expressive so that people could build whatever they want.

954
01:13:48,557 --> 01:14:00,197
But he also implemented mempool filters so that if people start doing stupid shit, if people start building things that are more destructive than constructive, then we can filter those things out.

955
01:14:00,897 --> 01:14:07,557
So mempool filters are a very, very fundamentally useful thing that Satoshi built in from the beginning into the Bitcoin protocol.

956
01:14:08,117 --> 01:14:12,777
And the core devs in the last few years have suddenly decided that mempool filters are no longer useful.

957
01:14:13,137 --> 01:14:15,677
And that's bewildering and concerning.

958
01:14:15,677 --> 01:14:24,377
yeah yeah um i agree and i still think it's it's strange there's so much that doesn't make sense

959
01:14:24,377 --> 01:14:30,437
to me out of this i can somewhat buy the argument that it's futile but but it's still the answer i've

960
01:14:30,437 --> 01:14:37,157
never gotten a really good straight answer to is why why was it important to increase the fucking

961
01:14:37,157 --> 01:14:44,017
thing right it wasn't and he even said that it wasn't yeah and so no so why did you do it like

962
01:14:44,017 --> 01:14:45,277
I still don't know why.

963
01:14:46,697 --> 01:14:47,437
He's explained.

964
01:14:47,577 --> 01:14:55,277
Merch himself has gone on social media and many different places and argued with lots of people who are less technical than me.

965
01:14:55,457 --> 01:14:56,997
His communication is only one way, right?

966
01:14:57,017 --> 01:14:58,177
He only tells people things.

967
01:14:58,237 --> 01:14:58,937
He doesn't listen.

968
01:14:59,197 --> 01:15:00,517
And so where was I going with that?

969
01:15:02,337 --> 01:15:03,677
I was answering your question.

970
01:15:05,057 --> 01:15:06,397
Shots fired, I guess.

971
01:15:06,557 --> 01:15:07,517
Okay, here's one.

972
01:15:07,657 --> 01:15:09,997
I was going to steel man their position.

973
01:15:09,997 --> 01:15:17,757
Okay, so their position is that leaving the oppratern filter in is bad for UTXO set bloat and mining centralization.

974
01:15:18,277 --> 01:15:21,337
And so as we've just talked about, it does neither of those things.

975
01:15:21,877 --> 01:15:30,297
And in the case of UTXO set bloat, it probably makes it a lot worse because as we've seen, BRC20, which was a result of not filtering inscriptions, caused 8 gigabytes of UTXO set bloat.

976
01:15:30,337 --> 01:15:39,037
Whereas Citria, the system that sort of prompted them to remove the oppratern limit, was 64 bytes, which is never expected to occur.

977
01:15:39,677 --> 01:15:46,697
So they were basically like, oh, UTXO set load is a huge problem when it's Citria who needs us to get rid of the off return limit.

978
01:15:47,297 --> 01:15:55,017
But not when Bitcoin node runners who are struggling to sync Raspberry Pi nodes need us to help limit the UTXO set size.

979
01:15:56,217 --> 01:16:00,637
Yeah, and here's a point that says Citria needed 144 bytes, not 100,000.

980
01:16:01,477 --> 01:16:02,457
Exactly, exactly.

981
01:16:03,037 --> 01:16:06,477
So as I said, you know, appeal from laziness, you know, argument from laziness.

982
01:16:06,477 --> 01:16:11,657
You know, they were like, oh, well, we don't want to have to keep having this fight every six months.

983
01:16:11,717 --> 01:16:14,037
So we're just going to completely rip out the filter.

984
01:16:14,837 --> 01:16:18,697
It's something sensible like having a discussion about whether to raise the limit.

985
01:16:19,897 --> 01:16:21,997
Yeah, here's another one.

986
01:16:22,117 --> 01:16:25,537
Knut says that spammer calls spammers users.

987
01:16:25,837 --> 01:16:26,997
I apologize for that.

988
01:16:27,097 --> 01:16:28,657
I don't think they are users.

989
01:16:28,817 --> 01:16:29,977
I think they're abusers.

990
01:16:30,597 --> 01:16:34,137
Yeah, there's a March quote here that could be good to address.

991
01:16:34,137 --> 01:16:39,097
this highlights that the 80 byte op return limit has downsides.

992
01:16:39,457 --> 01:16:43,337
Please explain the downside of 64 bytes that could go,

993
01:16:43,657 --> 01:16:46,477
but are never expected to go into the UTXO set.

994
01:16:47,537 --> 01:16:49,657
Right. So that's what I was just saying right now.

995
01:16:51,157 --> 01:16:56,917
Citria built this rollup that uses 64 bytes in the UTXO set,

996
01:16:58,637 --> 01:17:03,157
because they needed 144 bytes of arbitrary data in a single transaction,

997
01:17:03,157 --> 01:17:08,257
which isn't allowed the bitcoin network came to an agreement that 80 bytes was the maximum in 2014

998
01:17:08,257 --> 01:17:12,297
and so they were like okay well we need to put 144 bytes in so we're going to put 80 bytes into

999
01:17:12,297 --> 01:17:16,457
an opera turn and we're going to put 64 bytes into fake pub keys which go into the utxo set

1000
01:17:16,457 --> 01:17:21,197
this transaction is never expected to occur it's kind of like the justice transaction

1001
01:17:21,197 --> 01:17:28,257
in lightning you know it only happens if stuff is really going sideways right if the coordinator is

1002
01:17:28,257 --> 01:17:34,377
is executing things wrongly, you know, and basically trying to steal people's money.

1003
01:17:35,277 --> 01:17:40,157
So they're basically saying, oh, my God, 64 bytes, which is never expected to occur,

1004
01:17:40,877 --> 01:17:45,977
is worth getting rid of this, like, highly popular, highly respected

1005
01:17:45,977 --> 01:17:51,877
operaturn limit to limit transaction, to limit arbitrary data storage on Bitcoin

1006
01:17:51,877 --> 01:17:53,497
and keep Bitcoin as good money.

1007
01:17:53,897 --> 01:17:56,717
They're basically saying, you know, like, the whole rationale was bullshit.

1008
01:17:56,717 --> 01:17:59,897
And the thing is, I'm kind of the only one who knows why it's bullshit.

1009
01:18:00,037 --> 01:18:01,277
And this is why they won't talk to me.

1010
01:18:03,697 --> 01:18:09,557
So BAPS, this thing that Citra is pushing, to me, that sounds like complete bullshit.

1011
01:18:10,097 --> 01:18:11,797
What's your opinion on BAPS?

1012
01:18:14,017 --> 01:18:15,017
Same shit, different toilet.

1013
01:18:15,157 --> 01:18:18,377
I mean, it's the same thing that companies have been trying to do.

1014
01:18:18,457 --> 01:18:24,437
I mean, so Vitalik famously left Bitcoin, stopped trying to build Ethereum on Bitcoin in 2014.

1015
01:18:24,437 --> 01:18:25,677
when he...

1016
01:18:25,677 --> 01:18:27,317
He was pushed out, right?

1017
01:18:27,717 --> 01:18:30,597
Well, he said he looked at the situation with Oppurtern

1018
01:18:30,597 --> 01:18:32,977
and realized that the Bitcoin core devs

1019
01:18:32,977 --> 01:18:34,437
were going to be at war with him.

1020
01:18:34,557 --> 01:18:36,437
So he left Bitcoin entirely.

1021
01:18:36,797 --> 01:18:37,777
This is how we win.

1022
01:18:37,917 --> 01:18:39,257
Okay, so he went and built Ethereum.

1023
01:18:40,397 --> 01:18:43,057
Then there's a thing called Rootstock or RSK,

1024
01:18:43,317 --> 01:18:46,197
which, you know, because the Ethereum protocol was popular,

1025
01:18:46,197 --> 01:18:48,637
it used basically JavaScript-like programming.

1026
01:18:49,137 --> 01:18:51,037
And so it was very popular for lazy devs

1027
01:18:51,037 --> 01:18:51,937
who like JavaScript.

1028
01:18:52,317 --> 01:18:53,897
And so they were like, look, we can tinker around

1029
01:18:53,897 --> 01:18:55,317
and have all this fun with Ethereum

1030
01:18:55,317 --> 01:18:56,457
because it uses this language

1031
01:18:56,457 --> 01:18:58,117
that's very similar to JavaScript

1032
01:18:58,117 --> 01:19:00,837
or very conducive to sort of web style programming.

1033
01:19:00,937 --> 01:19:02,157
That's why they call it web.

1034
01:19:03,297 --> 01:19:05,317
And so there was this idea early on,

1035
01:19:05,377 --> 01:19:05,897
oh, we should just,

1036
01:19:06,017 --> 01:19:07,717
instead of having Ethereum be a separate blockchain,

1037
01:19:08,137 --> 01:19:10,517
we should make a copy of Ethereum

1038
01:19:10,517 --> 01:19:11,617
and bolt it onto Bitcoin.

1039
01:19:11,757 --> 01:19:12,537
So that was rootstock.

1040
01:19:12,957 --> 01:19:14,797
And so they made a federated side chain

1041
01:19:14,797 --> 01:19:17,017
and put the Ethereum virtual machine in that.

1042
01:19:17,457 --> 01:19:19,537
And there were a bunch of baps,

1043
01:19:19,617 --> 01:19:20,377
they didn't call them that,

1044
01:19:20,377 --> 01:19:23,797
but just apps that people built on top of rootstock

1045
01:19:23,797 --> 01:19:25,237
all of which were scams.

1046
01:19:25,237 --> 01:19:27,677
And rootstock, nobody cares about rootstock now

1047
01:19:27,677 --> 01:19:29,297
because obviously it was a scam.

1048
01:19:29,297 --> 01:19:30,997
Or maybe not rootstock itself,

1049
01:19:30,997 --> 01:19:33,037
but obviously it was misguided, right?

1050
01:19:33,037 --> 01:19:34,637
There was something that did not need to exist

1051
01:19:34,637 --> 01:19:39,637
and it effectively only existed in order to enrich

1052
01:19:39,637 --> 01:19:41,657
the people who were sort of building it.

1053
01:19:41,657 --> 01:19:42,717
Yeah, yeah.

1054
01:19:42,717 --> 01:20:02,340
But this is what I saying This is back to the Voorhees example Like this is pyramids upon pyramids of enabling each other to do like just enabling more and more scams Yeah the game if you trying to start a tech startup the game in fiat world is how do I get as many VCs to ape in to my startup as possible

1055
01:20:02,740 --> 01:20:13,300
Well, in late game fiat world, the best way is to just be fraudulent, is to just market really well, but not actually have a product that does anything useful.

1056
01:20:13,740 --> 01:20:18,780
So that's the name of the game in crypto world, in the crypto industry outside of Bitcoin.

1057
01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:21,080
That's what everyone does.

1058
01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:37,880
And so they did that with rootstock. And then Citria is the same exact thing. Citria is literally rootstock, but with a slightly better pegging mechanism that doesn't rely on a federated multisig. It relies on a BitVM bridge, which is a one of n trust model instead of a, you know, eight of 15 or whatever.

1059
01:20:37,880 --> 01:20:43,700
um but it's like there's pretty much no effective difference for the end user so there's no reason

1060
01:20:43,700 --> 01:20:49,880
to expect citria to be successful where rootstock was not so it's it's a cash grab right it's just

1061
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:56,260
people looking around for a a way to raise a bunch of vc money for a blockchain startup and this is

1062
01:20:56,260 --> 01:21:00,680
what they landed on because uh now since since casey rodimore invented inscriptions now inscriptions

1063
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:01,320
are a thing.

1064
01:21:04,040 --> 01:21:08,340
And since Robin Linus invented BitVM, you know, so there were...

1065
01:21:08,340 --> 01:21:13,820
Yeah, I met him in Prague after we had our conversation, I think.

1066
01:21:13,820 --> 01:21:20,240
Like after, yeah, I met a lot of core side people there at the Trezor event.

1067
01:21:20,380 --> 01:21:22,200
I guess they would be at that event.

1068
01:21:22,420 --> 01:21:26,020
But yeah, let's see where we are here.

1069
01:21:26,020 --> 01:21:31,060
Okay, so let's talk about the proposed forks, 110 and the cat.

1070
01:21:31,320 --> 01:21:33,180
Like, what are your opinions on those two?

1071
01:21:33,240 --> 01:21:37,080
Because I think both of those were suggested after we had our last conversation.

1072
01:21:37,300 --> 01:21:38,340
So let's go in there.

1073
01:21:38,440 --> 01:21:42,140
What's your opinion on BIP-110?

1074
01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:48,840
Yes, BIP-110 is just a, also known as BIP-444,

1075
01:21:48,840 --> 01:21:57,200
is a proposal to sort of reject data storage strongly at the consensus level.

1076
01:21:58,060 --> 01:22:06,080
It was originally proposed in order to protect node runners against like a CSAM attack.

1077
01:22:07,440 --> 01:22:13,180
You know, and this is still sort of its strongest rationale, in my opinion.

1078
01:22:13,180 --> 01:22:19,860
but it sort of evolved into a basically just a general rejection of the data storage use case

1079
01:22:19,860 --> 01:22:23,360
which I think is really really useful I think that that you know Bitcoiners should be able to

1080
01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:31,340
come together and say you know Bitcoin is money it's not data storage so and bit.10 in my opinion

1081
01:22:31,340 --> 01:22:36,040
does this just about as well as anything I can imagine so you know you know we've been we've

1082
01:22:36,040 --> 01:22:40,640
been going in circles over you know what's going to be the next consensus change for the last few

1083
01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:45,120
years and it seems like something something conservative like this something that solves

1084
01:22:45,120 --> 01:22:48,940
some of the problems that were that were caused by segwit and taproot by you know by the prior

1085
01:22:48,940 --> 01:22:56,840
softworks um is is probably the next best candidate for for a consensus change so i think uh yeah i'm

1086
01:22:56,840 --> 01:23:05,880
a big supporter of bit 444 and yeah you have it in your handle yes yeah and the cat is kind of

1087
01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:15,660
interesting it's a lot more complex than uh bit 444 uh and it's a lot more uh like it kind of

1088
01:23:15,660 --> 01:23:20,300
changes the social contract of bitcoin a little bit um i mean obviously you know as we were saying

1089
01:23:20,300 --> 01:23:28,100
earlier if bitcoiners decide to activate it you know then it activates you know i mean so so the

1090
01:23:28,100 --> 01:23:33,760
Cat is much less mature than bit444.

1091
01:23:34,440 --> 01:23:37,820
Bit444 already has an activation client already published.

1092
01:23:38,440 --> 01:23:41,820
So I think it makes sense to just support that and activate that.

1093
01:23:42,340 --> 01:23:46,440
Since it's a much more simple change, it's very easy to review.

1094
01:23:48,500 --> 01:23:49,520
It's ready to go.

1095
01:23:50,060 --> 01:23:50,860
Let's turn it on.

1096
01:23:51,900 --> 01:23:54,560
Whereas with the Cat, it needs to be developed further

1097
01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:58,140
into an actual piece of software that people can run.

1098
01:23:59,360 --> 01:24:02,180
And it's pretty doubtful that that would happen soon.

1099
01:24:03,400 --> 01:24:05,500
But what I really like about the cat is that,

1100
01:24:05,600 --> 01:24:07,120
I don't know if you noticed,

1101
01:24:07,260 --> 01:24:09,560
but pretty much right after it was proposed,

1102
01:24:10,700 --> 01:24:11,400
spam went down.

1103
01:24:11,940 --> 01:24:12,900
All of the spammers went away.

1104
01:24:13,460 --> 01:24:15,120
No, that's why I loved it so much

1105
01:24:15,120 --> 01:24:19,000
because regardless of if it's implemented or not,

1106
01:24:19,520 --> 01:24:22,320
just the risk of something like that being implemented

1107
01:24:22,320 --> 01:24:24,220
is fucking up their incentives.

1108
01:24:24,220 --> 01:24:25,740
and it's all about incentives.

1109
01:24:26,120 --> 01:24:27,400
I love it.

1110
01:24:27,800 --> 01:24:30,100
Like, we're not gonna take it.

1111
01:24:30,220 --> 01:24:31,840
That's the message it sent.

1112
01:24:32,000 --> 01:24:32,960
And it's wonderful.

1113
01:24:33,640 --> 01:24:33,720
Right.

1114
01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:36,040
By the way, my power just went out,

1115
01:24:36,100 --> 01:24:36,660
so I'm on battery.

1116
01:24:36,780 --> 01:24:37,820
So I'm not sure how long this is going.

1117
01:24:37,820 --> 01:24:38,160
All right.

1118
01:24:38,320 --> 01:24:38,680
Yeah, yeah.

1119
01:24:38,700 --> 01:24:40,220
We've been going for one and a half hours.

1120
01:24:40,300 --> 01:24:41,300
I think we should round out.

1121
01:24:41,500 --> 01:24:43,460
I just wanted to reiterate the point

1122
01:24:43,460 --> 01:24:46,200
that Merch says that there's no way to fight spam

1123
01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:48,880
and the cat demonstrates why this is wrong.

1124
01:24:49,780 --> 01:24:51,380
Because all we have to do is talk about

1125
01:24:51,380 --> 01:24:52,900
breaking their protocols and they leave.

1126
01:24:53,400 --> 01:24:56,660
So now merch will say, oh, well, that's because they were outpriced.

1127
01:24:57,120 --> 01:24:58,540
You know, they were priced out.

1128
01:24:58,960 --> 01:25:00,320
Their scams became unprofitable.

1129
01:25:01,060 --> 01:25:03,300
And it's like, yeah, but why did their scams become unprofitable?

1130
01:25:03,300 --> 01:25:04,820
Because Bitcoiners were hostile.

1131
01:25:05,780 --> 01:25:06,260
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1132
01:25:06,500 --> 01:25:11,820
And also, like, the fact that we're talking about it and doing these things,

1133
01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:15,980
maybe someone who was prone to buy one of these scams got thought,

1134
01:25:16,120 --> 01:25:19,800
had to think twice and refrained from doing that stupid shit.

1135
01:25:19,800 --> 01:25:24,460
So like, that's why I still believe that education is the most important thing.

1136
01:25:24,660 --> 01:25:30,700
And maybe you can't, you probably can't educate everyone in the world to run a lightning node at home.

1137
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:35,960
Like it's too complex for most people, but you can tell everyone why shit coins are shit.

1138
01:25:36,120 --> 01:25:38,400
That's very simple to explain.

1139
01:25:39,060 --> 01:25:45,700
Right. Yeah. And if you, you know, if you, if you basically say, okay, Bitcoin is money and we're not going to put up with your stupid spamming,

1140
01:25:45,740 --> 01:25:49,380
then that kind of refocuses everybody and gets everybody back on the same page.

1141
01:25:49,380 --> 01:25:51,000
oh, we should be improving Bitcoin as money.

1142
01:25:51,100 --> 01:25:52,500
And then it becomes easier to convince people

1143
01:25:52,500 --> 01:25:53,400
to run Lightning nodes.

1144
01:25:53,620 --> 01:25:56,600
And then it becomes easier and easier to run Lightning nodes.

1145
01:25:56,740 --> 01:25:57,660
The more in open source,

1146
01:25:57,840 --> 01:25:59,160
the more people that run a program,

1147
01:25:59,240 --> 01:26:00,600
the more eyes you have on that program

1148
01:26:00,600 --> 01:26:01,760
and the faster it improves.

1149
01:26:02,080 --> 01:26:02,980
So that's what we want, right?

1150
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:04,180
We want lots of people running it,

1151
01:26:04,240 --> 01:26:05,380
even though it's difficult,

1152
01:26:05,620 --> 01:26:07,580
it's way easier than it was and it's getting better.

1153
01:26:07,980 --> 01:26:09,860
And the more people that do it, the faster it will go.

1154
01:26:10,340 --> 01:26:11,040
So that's what we want.

1155
01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:14,220
Yep, I have, you can see the box over there.

1156
01:26:14,360 --> 01:26:15,280
That's the start nine.

1157
01:26:15,400 --> 01:26:16,340
It's running over here.

1158
01:26:17,060 --> 01:26:17,620
Excellent, excellent.

1159
01:26:17,620 --> 01:26:22,700
anyway is there anything we haven't talked about yet that you wanted to bring up really like have

1160
01:26:22,700 --> 01:26:27,760
we missed anything here before your battery runs out yeah i mean there's like yeah like i said

1161
01:26:27,760 --> 01:26:33,660
there's probably a ton in here um i think we i think we hit all the main points yeah and some

1162
01:26:33,660 --> 01:26:39,520
bonus points i just want to reiterate that i would love to have a direct conversation with merch or

1163
01:26:39,520 --> 01:26:45,040
anyone from the core dev side this problem wouldn't exist if they just treated our our concerns uh as

1164
01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:49,780
real concerns and you know treated us like human beings and and uh actually talk to us and listen

1165
01:26:49,780 --> 01:26:55,500
to our concerns that's that's a whole a whole different can of worms to open up the the not

1166
01:26:55,500 --> 01:27:00,960
letting you guys even propose stuff on the forums and stuff like that that's that's a huge problem

1167
01:27:00,960 --> 01:27:07,260
let's not go there now i mean i would absolutely love a conversation between you and march i would

1168
01:27:07,260 --> 01:27:11,840
i would be glued to the screen uh pretending i understood what you were talking about

1169
01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:15,640
and I think a lot of my listeners would too.

1170
01:27:16,020 --> 01:27:19,100
So like, subscribe and brush your teeth and comment

1171
01:27:19,100 --> 01:27:21,000
if you want to see the things.

1172
01:27:21,940 --> 01:27:25,040
And Chris, thank you for coming back to the show.

1173
01:27:25,200 --> 01:27:28,000
You're welcome back whenever you want to do another rant

1174
01:27:28,000 --> 01:27:29,540
or back and forth like this.

1175
01:27:29,820 --> 01:27:31,260
Follow Chris on X.

1176
01:27:31,620 --> 01:27:33,780
I guess that's the best way to follow you.

1177
01:27:34,220 --> 01:27:35,060
Yep, yeah.

1178
01:27:35,400 --> 01:27:36,600
Siglita6 is my handle.

1179
01:27:41,840 --> 01:28:11,820
Thank you.