Quantum Computing and Interplanetary Horizons with Dhruv Bansal - Freedom Footprint Show 55

1
00:00:00,020 --> 00:00:03,880
I think also there's this notion of we're so early that we barely understand it.

2
00:00:04,229 --> 00:00:09,679
I think 300 years from now and Bitcoin has been ascendant for centuries and

3
00:00:09,839 --> 00:00:13,300
everyone assumes this is how it always worked, I think our level of understanding

4
00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,975
of all of this will be higher,

5
00:00:16,194 --> 00:00:20,534
In our grandchildren's minds, us three here, this conversation

6
00:00:20,534 --> 00:00:21,654
will be drooling idiots.

7
00:00:22,024 --> 00:00:22,994
Yes, exactly.

8
00:00:23,274 --> 00:00:23,564
Yeah.

9
00:00:24,314 --> 00:00:25,454
there's no way around that.

10
00:00:25,754 --> 00:00:30,014
So I hope at least has entertainment value to them so they can laugh at us.

11
00:00:30,434 --> 00:00:32,164
Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint Show.

12
00:00:32,844 --> 00:00:36,974
The Bitcoin Philosophy Show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn.

13
00:00:37,350 --> 00:00:41,710
Today, we're joined by Dhruv Bansal, the co founder of Unchained Capital,

14
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:46,120
a financial services company building products for long term Bitcoin holders.

15
00:00:46,620 --> 00:00:49,090
In this episode, we explore the relationship between

16
00:00:49,130 --> 00:00:50,330
physics and economics.

17
00:00:50,627 --> 00:00:54,177
We discover all about Unchained Capital and the relevance of collaborative

18
00:00:54,177 --> 00:00:55,667
custody for long term holders.

19
00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,130
We discuss KYC and the future of Bitcoin regulations.

20
00:00:59,220 --> 00:01:04,060
And finally, we deep Dive into quantum computing and the interplanetary

21
00:01:04,070 --> 00:01:05,610
horizons of the blockchain.

22
00:01:05,994 --> 00:01:09,264
But before we dive in, a quick reminder that the best way to support the show

23
00:01:09,264 --> 00:01:12,374
is to send us a boost or stream us some sats using a value for value

24
00:01:12,384 --> 00:01:14,084
podcasting app such as Fountain.

25
00:01:14,410 --> 00:01:17,070
If you're listening to this show as a podcast, check it out on Fountain.

26
00:01:17,090 --> 00:01:19,410
You can earn sats from listening and you can support us and

27
00:01:19,420 --> 00:01:20,830
all your other favorite shows.

28
00:01:21,088 --> 00:01:24,388
You can also support us on geyser fund or send sats directly to our lightning

29
00:01:24,388 --> 00:01:26,748
address, freedom at geyser dot fund.

30
00:01:27,061 --> 00:01:29,901
And if you want to exchange your dirty fiat, you can support us on Patreon.

31
00:01:29,941 --> 00:01:31,381
All our links are in the description.

32
00:01:31,864 --> 00:01:33,974
If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode

33
00:01:33,974 --> 00:01:35,074
and subscribe to the channel.

34
00:01:35,544 --> 00:01:38,334
Even if you're listening as a podcast, head over to our YouTube

35
00:01:38,334 --> 00:01:39,744
channel and subscribe to us there.

36
00:01:39,754 --> 00:01:41,254
It would be a big help.

37
00:01:41,934 --> 00:01:43,874
And finally, we want to thank today's sponsors.

38
00:01:44,244 --> 00:01:46,864
Wasabi Wallet, Orange Pill App, The Bitcoin Way.

39
00:01:47,124 --> 00:01:48,854
zellox and bitcoinbook.

40
00:01:48,914 --> 00:01:49,314
shop.

41
00:01:49,954 --> 00:01:51,614
All their information is in the description.

42
00:01:51,624 --> 00:01:53,384
We'll be talking a bit more about them later.

43
00:01:53,931 --> 00:01:58,231
And now, without further ado, here is Dhruv Bansal on

44
00:01:58,601 --> 00:01:59,641
the Freedom Footprint show.

45
00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,037
Dhruv, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show.

46
00:02:02,057 --> 00:02:02,817
Thanks for joining us.

47
00:02:03,597 --> 00:02:04,407
Thanks for having me guys.

48
00:02:04,407 --> 00:02:05,247
It's a pleasure to be on.

49
00:02:05,820 --> 00:02:07,527
Pleasure to have you here, Dhruv.

50
00:02:07,527 --> 00:02:10,807
Yeah, let's start off with a presentation of you.

51
00:02:10,947 --> 00:02:13,677
Can you give us the TLDR on Dhruv Bansal?

52
00:02:13,697 --> 00:02:17,493
Who are you and when did you find Bitcoin and all this stuff?

53
00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:18,120
Sure.

54
00:02:18,449 --> 00:02:22,009
I started out my career as a, as a physicist at the University of Texas at

55
00:02:22,009 --> 00:02:24,839
Austin, like this way back in 2005 or so.

56
00:02:24,929 --> 00:02:27,539
So dating myself, um, just pre Bitcoin.

57
00:02:27,972 --> 00:02:30,516
my research area was, kind of focused on.

58
00:02:31,246 --> 00:02:34,336
You know, big human systems, even though I was, even though I was a physicist, I

59
00:02:34,336 --> 00:02:38,796
was often taking real world data sets and, you know, stock markets, school systems,

60
00:02:38,826 --> 00:02:41,646
economies, whatever, looking at them from, you know, kind of a physics perspective.

61
00:02:41,646 --> 00:02:44,846
There's some interesting things I felt that, you know, even physicists could say,

62
00:02:45,236 --> 00:02:49,991
uh, about those complex systems, that led to like a big love of programming and data

63
00:02:49,991 --> 00:02:55,281
sets and interacting online in an era that was like a little bit just pre GitHub, pre

64
00:02:55,281 --> 00:02:58,781
a bunch of tools that we kind of take for granted today, before AWS, for example.

65
00:02:59,184 --> 00:03:02,364
and it was just really hard to move data around, and so I kind

66
00:03:02,364 --> 00:03:04,694
of fell into no, no plan at all.

67
00:03:04,704 --> 00:03:06,064
This was not my life plan.

68
00:03:06,064 --> 00:03:09,454
I was going to be a physicist, but I kind of fell into this startup with

69
00:03:09,644 --> 00:03:13,554
Joe Kelly, my co founder here at Unchained, um, and third co founder,

70
00:03:13,554 --> 00:03:14,962
Flip Cromer, the physics department.

71
00:03:14,963 --> 00:03:18,463
So the three of us before Unchained started this business around data and

72
00:03:18,703 --> 00:03:23,336
Cloud computing and, DevOps and all these trends that were kind of colliding

73
00:03:23,346 --> 00:03:25,206
in that, you know, mid 2000s era.

74
00:03:25,906 --> 00:03:27,936
Um, a lot of stuff that was coming, you know, out of Google

75
00:03:28,116 --> 00:03:29,676
and sort of becoming open source.

76
00:03:30,020 --> 00:03:31,230
and so I really learned a lot.

77
00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,440
I said, we want to starting a business kind of building out infrastructure like

78
00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,690
this to help people move data around often in the enterprise, you know, banks

79
00:03:37,690 --> 00:03:39,510
and big companies and manufacturers.

80
00:03:39,510 --> 00:03:40,670
That's kind of where we found success.

81
00:03:40,670 --> 00:03:42,030
Ultimately, we started in a nerdier.

82
00:03:42,210 --> 00:03:44,000
area of the world, but that's where we found success.

83
00:03:44,420 --> 00:03:47,390
And so in this process, I learned a lot about like distributed systems

84
00:03:48,330 --> 00:03:51,680
and, you know, like machine learning, but like also like how a distributed

85
00:03:51,690 --> 00:03:55,590
database works and how time is a really important idea on those systems.

86
00:03:55,590 --> 00:03:58,150
And of course, these are all centralized databases, right?

87
00:03:58,150 --> 00:04:01,500
They're distributed, but they're all run by the same guy, often me, right?

88
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,410
Like setting up a large cluster of machines.

89
00:04:04,030 --> 00:04:08,770
Um, somewhere in that story, I met someone, um, at a conference, open source

90
00:04:08,770 --> 00:04:12,250
conference about databases and stuff, like he was talking about Bitcoin and.

91
00:04:12,610 --> 00:04:16,030
In my head, I'm just like, I can't think of it as anything other than a

92
00:04:16,030 --> 00:04:19,240
distributed database, you know, like, I just, I don't know anything about

93
00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,900
money, I don't have any money, I've never heard of Austrian economics, probably

94
00:04:22,930 --> 00:04:24,260
wouldn't have cared about it if I had.

95
00:04:24,646 --> 00:04:27,797
This guy's talking about so much about the code, the blockchain, this,

96
00:04:27,827 --> 00:04:31,947
blockchain, that, right, and I'm just like, I had enough background in these

97
00:04:31,947 --> 00:04:36,137
distributed systems and database stuff to sort of, Understand that like,

98
00:04:36,137 --> 00:04:38,037
okay, this is actually a real thing.

99
00:04:38,037 --> 00:04:39,503
Like this could work.

100
00:04:39,503 --> 00:04:44,393
I concede that this is a very clever and interesting design for a database,

101
00:04:44,743 --> 00:04:48,523
but I could not understand why it should have a price, like what the

102
00:04:48,523 --> 00:04:49,973
money has to do with any of it.

103
00:04:49,973 --> 00:04:53,243
Like, I just, I thought it was, um, There's these esoteric programming

104
00:04:53,243 --> 00:04:56,263
languages like BrainFuck and things like this that are like

105
00:04:56,593 --> 00:04:58,133
designed to be hard to use.

106
00:04:58,143 --> 00:05:01,513
They're like a Rube Goldberg machine and like the whole idea is like, can

107
00:05:01,513 --> 00:05:04,443
you do something useful even though the machine you made was designed

108
00:05:04,453 --> 00:05:07,213
to be perversely hard to use in a fun way for programmers, right?

109
00:05:07,493 --> 00:05:09,523
And so I thought that, I was like, this is what this is, right?

110
00:05:09,523 --> 00:05:11,983
Like, I have a, I have a Cassandra cluster over here that I'm throwing

111
00:05:11,983 --> 00:05:13,483
like terabytes in every day.

112
00:05:13,768 --> 00:05:14,618
you're giving me...

113
00:05:14,633 --> 00:05:16,431
The blockchain, what is this for?

114
00:05:17,035 --> 00:05:20,055
so I, I, I saw it as a database and then I dismissed it, right?

115
00:05:20,125 --> 00:05:22,065
Also Bitcoin price, this is 2011 or so.

116
00:05:22,385 --> 00:05:23,735
Bitcoin price is like less than a dollar.

117
00:05:24,045 --> 00:05:25,425
So I'm like, man, it's not, who cares?

118
00:05:25,756 --> 00:05:27,702
fast forward a couple of years, we sold the business.

119
00:05:27,732 --> 00:05:29,592
I made some money for the first time in my life.

120
00:05:29,892 --> 00:05:31,032
I bought some dumb things.

121
00:05:31,122 --> 00:05:35,172
And one of the dumb things I thought I might buy would be Bitcoin,

122
00:05:35,192 --> 00:05:36,472
because of course it's now 2013.

123
00:05:36,882 --> 00:05:37,662
I checked in on the price.

124
00:05:37,662 --> 00:05:39,642
It's like a hundred dollars or something, a coin.

125
00:05:40,087 --> 00:05:41,677
And I'm like, how the hell did that happen?

126
00:05:42,207 --> 00:05:45,577
Like in just two years, this thing that I thought was like an esoteric

127
00:05:45,847 --> 00:05:49,137
database tool worth less than a coin is now worth hundreds of dollars.

128
00:05:49,227 --> 00:05:53,107
Who is, oh, and then I, oh my God, if people are actually going to use this

129
00:05:53,107 --> 00:05:56,057
thing as money, if like they actually start doing that, then it might work.

130
00:05:56,567 --> 00:05:57,487
I should buy some, right?

131
00:05:57,487 --> 00:05:58,257
I'm already too late.

132
00:05:58,522 --> 00:06:00,682
You know, I might as well get in now and get a little bit.

133
00:06:00,852 --> 00:06:03,572
And, um, so that was the beginning for me, right?

134
00:06:03,572 --> 00:06:06,802
Like sort of feeling the FOMO, like oftentimes people feel, and then

135
00:06:06,802 --> 00:06:09,982
making a speculative investment, um, not understanding anything

136
00:06:09,992 --> 00:06:11,162
about how it actually worked.

137
00:06:11,182 --> 00:06:13,372
Just looking at that number going up and being like, yeah, all right,

138
00:06:13,402 --> 00:06:14,372
I'll throw some cash into this.

139
00:06:14,502 --> 00:06:18,512
I'll only put a little bit in, of course, um, wish and happy

140
00:06:18,512 --> 00:06:19,632
that I didn't put in more.

141
00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:21,339
and then I didn't think about it for a couple of years.

142
00:06:21,339 --> 00:06:23,279
Joe and I, uh, you know, got acquired.

143
00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,239
We went and worked for Acquire for a little bit.

144
00:06:26,189 --> 00:06:30,221
Quitting because it's terrible sometimes to work for large businesses and did

145
00:06:30,221 --> 00:06:35,078
nothing for a year and floated joe got married i built a house like we just

146
00:06:35,088 --> 00:06:38,448
did a bunch of life stuff and the whole time i'm just thinking what's the next

147
00:06:38,448 --> 00:06:43,121
business what do we want to do next and then ultimately around twenty fifteen

148
00:06:43,121 --> 00:06:44,881
twenty sixteen or so we're starting now.

149
00:06:45,041 --> 00:06:46,371
We're like, all right, let's start another business.

150
00:06:46,371 --> 00:06:47,671
Like we're doing the research.

151
00:06:47,671 --> 00:06:49,501
We're thinking about problem domains.

152
00:06:49,801 --> 00:06:53,571
We're supposed to be working on all these interesting applications of

153
00:06:53,571 --> 00:06:57,776
data and computer science to, you to, to construction or food industry,

154
00:06:57,776 --> 00:07:01,342
or, or this is our hypothesis about what we want to accomplish.

155
00:07:01,662 --> 00:07:03,492
And then neither of us did the work.

156
00:07:03,682 --> 00:07:07,982
We instead just read about Bitcoin and kind of were falling into the rabbit hole.

157
00:07:08,072 --> 00:07:09,932
And we didn't have that expression for it at the time.

158
00:07:09,952 --> 00:07:10,942
That's what was happening to us.

159
00:07:11,476 --> 00:07:13,716
And so at some point around 2016, I remember we just admitted it.

160
00:07:13,726 --> 00:07:17,296
We were like, I think we're really into Bitcoin and I think Bitcoin is

161
00:07:17,296 --> 00:07:18,936
gonna be a giant thing in the future.

162
00:07:19,326 --> 00:07:20,536
We should just start a Bitcoin company.

163
00:07:20,966 --> 00:07:24,846
And it felt a little crazy because, um, there weren't a lot of Bitcoin

164
00:07:24,846 --> 00:07:28,256
businesses and we felt a little bit late in some ways and a little bit early.

165
00:07:28,286 --> 00:07:30,996
Bitcoin's total market cap at that era is like six to eight billion

166
00:07:30,996 --> 00:07:32,246
dollars or something like this.

167
00:07:32,716 --> 00:07:33,236
So.

168
00:07:33,657 --> 00:07:34,532
yeah, early days.

169
00:07:34,582 --> 00:07:37,162
Um, but yeah, it was a long journey from being a scientist to kind of

170
00:07:37,162 --> 00:07:41,482
discovering and becoming a data person to eventually realizing that the

171
00:07:41,482 --> 00:07:45,322
blockchain, despite that it's got all these data like words, is actually

172
00:07:45,322 --> 00:07:48,957
really more about money and sort of building a business that makes sense.

173
00:07:49,477 --> 00:07:52,917
I think hopefully, one thing I'm proud of, we didn't approach Bitcoin at

174
00:07:52,917 --> 00:07:54,377
Unchained like it was a technology.

175
00:07:54,377 --> 00:07:55,977
We always approached it like it was a money.

176
00:07:56,407 --> 00:07:58,017
And so we built a financial services company.

177
00:07:58,027 --> 00:07:59,747
And so that's something that I think we got right.

178
00:08:00,241 --> 00:08:01,131
Fascinating.

179
00:08:02,111 --> 00:08:06,766
This is one thing that is always, like, baffled me that, that

180
00:08:07,046 --> 00:08:11,616
physicists and engineers, uh, seem to be like the, the early days

181
00:08:11,616 --> 00:08:15,196
of bitcoins are data scientists, physicists, and engineers mostly.

182
00:08:15,196 --> 00:08:15,476
Right.

183
00:08:15,741 --> 00:08:17,001
And crypto anarchists

184
00:08:17,316 --> 00:08:18,606
crypto anarchists, okay.

185
00:08:18,636 --> 00:08:22,336
Like, but yeah, the, the, the crypto anarchists are there as well, of

186
00:08:22,336 --> 00:08:23,606
course, as the cypherpunks, but,

187
00:08:23,801 --> 00:08:24,081
know.

188
00:08:24,656 --> 00:08:29,166
uh, it's only later, like in 2016, 17, that you get the safedins

189
00:08:29,256 --> 00:08:33,211
and, uh, the, the, the economics, uh, branch of it, really.

190
00:08:33,311 --> 00:08:37,451
So, so it seems like, like, these people, very few of them understand

191
00:08:37,451 --> 00:08:39,251
anything about Austrian economics.

192
00:08:39,301 --> 00:08:42,351
Uh, and as you said, you know, nothing about that.

193
00:08:42,351 --> 00:08:46,473
Like, how are your, knowledge level of Austrian economics these days?

194
00:08:46,473 --> 00:08:47,123
I guess it's, uh,

195
00:08:47,433 --> 00:08:48,433
I'd say low to mid.

196
00:08:49,136 --> 00:08:49,516
to mid.

197
00:08:49,776 --> 00:08:53,686
yeah, like I think, so truthfully, something that's been exciting for me

198
00:08:53,706 --> 00:08:56,876
starting Unchained and having to build a financial services business is I've

199
00:08:56,876 --> 00:09:02,681
just learned tremendously more about Money, economics, like the federal

200
00:09:03,071 --> 00:09:07,431
and governmental and non governmental apparatuses that like create and are

201
00:09:07,431 --> 00:09:11,261
responsible for the infrastructure of money, which is then so deeply connected

202
00:09:11,291 --> 00:09:12,561
to so much of the rest of the world.

203
00:09:12,561 --> 00:09:16,331
So I feel like I'm, I'm learning a tremendous amount, like by starting

204
00:09:16,331 --> 00:09:20,420
this business and, and that's been great, like Austrian economics as a

205
00:09:20,420 --> 00:09:23,800
particular like flavor of economics as distinct from, let's say, Keynesian

206
00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,968
or other approaches, like I'm on the outside of that discussion.

207
00:09:26,978 --> 00:09:30,928
I have nothing original or new to say, you know, and so I don't go wading into it

208
00:09:30,928 --> 00:09:32,768
and offer my opinion one way or the other.

209
00:09:32,768 --> 00:09:35,688
I tend to be a little bit timid about talking shit about things

210
00:09:35,688 --> 00:09:36,488
I don't really understand.

211
00:09:36,756 --> 00:09:39,559
I, and I, I would say honestly, this is something I, I often

212
00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:40,659
talk with Parker about this.

213
00:09:41,070 --> 00:09:43,912
Parker, who previously worked at Unchained for a long time and, you

214
00:09:43,912 --> 00:09:47,252
know, remains a close to the business and, and a close friend of mine.

215
00:09:47,252 --> 00:09:50,112
And, uh, I thought Parker had a completely different background

216
00:09:50,262 --> 00:09:51,432
when how he found Bitcoin.

217
00:09:51,432 --> 00:09:53,822
He's not a programmer or physics guy, anything like that.

218
00:09:53,832 --> 00:09:58,532
You know, he's, he's, uh, he deeply understands banking and macroeconomics

219
00:09:58,542 --> 00:10:00,552
and trading and all these kinds of things.

220
00:10:00,552 --> 00:10:04,292
And for him, the economic aspects of Bitcoin, and he, and I don't

221
00:10:04,292 --> 00:10:06,892
know, I imagine he might describe himself as an Austrian, I don't know.

222
00:10:07,232 --> 00:10:07,602
But like.

223
00:10:08,002 --> 00:10:09,622
Those, these are the things he's super knowledgeable about.

224
00:10:10,182 --> 00:10:10,402
Right.

225
00:10:10,402 --> 00:10:14,722
And I often looked to him and I'd be like, well, I think you could have made Bitcoin

226
00:10:14,762 --> 00:10:16,182
with a, you know, with tail emission.

227
00:10:16,182 --> 00:10:19,072
I think that would have worked like mechanically, like tell

228
00:10:19,072 --> 00:10:19,982
me why that's a bad idea.

229
00:10:20,092 --> 00:10:21,082
And then he would give me answers.

230
00:10:21,082 --> 00:10:21,932
He'd be like, Oh, this is why.

231
00:10:22,602 --> 00:10:24,262
And so I'm like, I don't know, man.

232
00:10:24,262 --> 00:10:25,872
Like, I'm not going to accept his word on it.

233
00:10:25,882 --> 00:10:27,512
But I, but I, I like his reasoning.

234
00:10:27,752 --> 00:10:28,912
It's a hypothesis.

235
00:10:28,912 --> 00:10:29,602
It's a, it's a theory.

236
00:10:29,602 --> 00:10:30,382
It makes sense.

237
00:10:30,572 --> 00:10:33,037
But then, you know, he would flip it on to me and be like, So why

238
00:10:33,037 --> 00:10:36,037
is it true that like this thing actually can't be like decrypt or

239
00:10:36,037 --> 00:10:37,237
like, how does that work in the code?

240
00:10:37,597 --> 00:10:40,117
You know, and I like, oh, that part I totally get, this is how that works.

241
00:10:40,327 --> 00:10:42,337
Like, that's why I have complete confidence in that aspect of how

242
00:10:42,337 --> 00:10:46,317
this system, so what I, what I, what I've loved about Bitcoin, for me

243
00:10:46,317 --> 00:10:49,557
personally as well as for like the community around it, is you cannot

244
00:10:49,557 --> 00:10:51,597
be like the master of all the fields.

245
00:10:51,627 --> 00:10:55,145
It's, impossible You come to it because of something that, that draws you in,

246
00:10:55,445 --> 00:10:59,535
uh, and I think, I think you're right for in the super early days, like you have

247
00:10:59,535 --> 00:11:02,495
to be one of a few different kinds of people, because there was no other way

248
00:11:02,495 --> 00:11:05,595
you were going to hear about Bitcoin, and there wasn't educational material about

249
00:11:05,595 --> 00:11:08,745
it for you to easily digest, so you had to kind of do the work to understand it

250
00:11:08,745 --> 00:11:12,765
yourself, and you're only going to do that if you had some in the background, right?

251
00:11:12,765 --> 00:11:18,010
For me, It wasn't the economics that drew me in, it was the technology, right, which

252
00:11:18,010 --> 00:11:21,650
is a sort of later on, I've realized it's not that important, um, and it's actually

253
00:11:21,660 --> 00:11:26,300
much more economics that drives everything in Bitcoin, but it was initially that that

254
00:11:26,300 --> 00:11:29,640
hooked me in, and also the whole energy thing, Bitcoin, physics, energy, time,

255
00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:31,470
that's a very sexy triangle of thoughts to

256
00:11:31,665 --> 00:11:32,035
It is.

257
00:11:32,907 --> 00:11:36,228
so like these kinds of things brought me in, um, and I think in those areas,

258
00:11:36,238 --> 00:11:40,118
I still feel strongest and I feel like strongest to talk about, well, what

259
00:11:40,118 --> 00:11:43,458
do I think about Bitcoin and energy or time and did it all these ideas.

260
00:11:43,828 --> 00:11:47,328
And I'm still a little bit relying on the rest of the community to represent,

261
00:11:47,460 --> 00:11:50,000
from the economic side, this is why Bitcoin makes the best argument.

262
00:11:50,010 --> 00:11:52,740
Like I sort of need them to, to talk about that part, you know?

263
00:11:53,890 --> 00:11:57,900
It reminds me of one of my father's favorite sayings, which was, it's

264
00:11:57,900 --> 00:12:03,030
better to be a complete idiot than to be a complete, an idiot in a specific

265
00:12:03,030 --> 00:12:05,170
field that only knows one thing.

266
00:12:06,710 --> 00:12:09,580
There's a Swedish expression, so I have a hard time translating it,

267
00:12:09,610 --> 00:12:13,387
but like, the thing was, yeah, it's better to know a little about a lot

268
00:12:13,387 --> 00:12:15,907
of stuff than to just specialize.

269
00:12:16,107 --> 00:12:19,487
And there's some truth to that, even though I believe in the division of

270
00:12:19,487 --> 00:12:24,220
labor as well, so you should, you should specialize, uh, but you should

271
00:12:24,220 --> 00:12:28,030
also don't trust and verify, so you should know a little about everything.

272
00:12:28,233 --> 00:12:32,263
the thing with the physicists and the engineers, the thing I find so fascinating

273
00:12:32,263 --> 00:12:40,271
is that physicists and engineers often get Austrian economics, um, more so than, than

274
00:12:40,281 --> 00:12:46,531
traditional economists, like in Keynesian, uh, whoever's read economics in school,

275
00:12:46,531 --> 00:12:50,851
they don't get it, but a physicist or an engineer knows what, what you can and

276
00:12:50,851 --> 00:12:54,391
what you cannot do with mathematics and what works and what, what doesn't work.

277
00:12:54,721 --> 00:12:58,511
And I think that's very closely related to economics, because you can pretty

278
00:12:58,511 --> 00:13:02,951
easily see when you, when you accept that valuations are subjective, it's.

279
00:13:03,191 --> 00:13:06,211
Kind of easy to draw the conclusion that you can't really do anything with

280
00:13:06,211 --> 00:13:12,240
mathematics and economics, like, except, you know, whatever a price signal says,

281
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:17,300
and you can add up the cost of stuff, but you can't really predict the future

282
00:13:17,370 --> 00:13:21,830
using mathematics, all, all your models are destroyed, the type of thing,

283
00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,580
like, because it's all subjective.

284
00:13:24,129 --> 00:13:24,469
So,

285
00:13:24,932 --> 00:13:29,145
definitely, I think, um, people definitely talk about physics envy, you know,

286
00:13:29,145 --> 00:13:32,335
and coming from like microeconomics or other places where like there are these

287
00:13:32,335 --> 00:13:37,785
big equations and, and like, there's definitely a massive degree of skepticism

288
00:13:38,405 --> 00:13:42,835
from actual physicists about Like work that looks a little too mathematical,

289
00:13:42,835 --> 00:13:47,205
but that doesn't actually have like natural laws or like hard things that

290
00:13:47,205 --> 00:13:50,275
we've experimentally measured that we can like, you know, build all that

291
00:13:50,275 --> 00:13:51,715
mathematics and drape it all over.

292
00:13:51,715 --> 00:13:51,995
Right?

293
00:13:52,025 --> 00:13:54,945
Because, um, it definitely makes people a little nervous.

294
00:13:55,505 --> 00:13:58,245
Are you saying that this equation on my t shirt here is wrong?

295
00:13:59,015 --> 00:13:59,395
Well,

296
00:13:59,415 --> 00:13:59,645
From

297
00:13:59,645 --> 00:13:59,945
a physics perspective?

298
00:13:59,945 --> 00:13:59,965
Yeah,

299
00:14:00,775 --> 00:14:02,455
I think we can accept metaphor, right?

300
00:14:02,455 --> 00:14:05,175
But I think the point is that it's, it's not meant to be metaphorical, right?

301
00:14:05,175 --> 00:14:08,315
Those, those, those equations are meant to be real equations, right?

302
00:14:08,355 --> 00:14:08,625
That

303
00:14:08,765 --> 00:14:09,775
physics they are, yeah.

304
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,130
I'm talking about even in folks who try to physicize economics, right?

305
00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,010
They're not saying it's just a metaphor.

306
00:14:15,010 --> 00:14:16,360
It's not just a T shirt slogan.

307
00:14:16,380 --> 00:14:19,920
It's supposedly a model for the real world that we should then, in fact,

308
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:21,180
make policy decisions on, right?

309
00:14:21,180 --> 00:14:22,780
So it's meant to be very real.

310
00:14:23,508 --> 00:14:25,368
And I don't think, oftentimes, I don't think it is.

311
00:14:25,368 --> 00:14:25,738
Yes.

312
00:14:25,778 --> 00:14:28,339
And I think I think physicists often see that.

313
00:14:28,349 --> 00:14:32,589
There's, um, I'll give you a quick story of, uh, so my graduate school advisor,

314
00:14:32,942 --> 00:14:37,422
a physicist, like, works nothing, like, works, um, in a lot of broad areas,

315
00:14:37,422 --> 00:14:40,102
and part of the reason I think I found myself studying all these crazy systems

316
00:14:40,102 --> 00:14:41,002
is because he was just very naive.

317
00:14:41,012 --> 00:14:44,192
He has broad ranging interests and encouraged me to do so, and when I

318
00:14:44,192 --> 00:14:46,202
talk to him about Bitcoin, because of course, you know, I'm trying to orange

319
00:14:46,202 --> 00:14:49,542
pill everybody in my life, and I say, you know, Bitcoin, economics, energy,

320
00:14:49,542 --> 00:14:53,303
da da da, turns out, like, he's been following another sort of, physics person

321
00:14:53,313 --> 00:14:57,903
who kind of went into economics and really talked about energy, and, like,

322
00:14:58,473 --> 00:15:00,793
in some sense, right, like, if you think about Democracy 모들의 경험을 이야기를 하셨으면 좋겠다.

323
00:15:01,603 --> 00:15:05,083
Whole human economies is just, you know, statistical systems.

324
00:15:05,253 --> 00:15:08,683
Shouldn't they obey things like the law of large numbers, and the equal

325
00:15:08,683 --> 00:15:12,313
partition, like, theorem, and like all these statistical mechanics ideas?

326
00:15:12,343 --> 00:15:17,163
Um, it's a very different approach to bringing math into economics than...

327
00:15:17,583 --> 00:15:20,632
Um, perhaps, traditional economists might have done, like, you know, for example,

328
00:15:20,632 --> 00:15:24,102
he has interesting theorems, like, can you kind of figure out, based on the

329
00:15:24,102 --> 00:15:27,818
distribution of wealth or something like that, uh, what kind of, whether the

330
00:15:27,818 --> 00:15:29,638
system is in equilibrium or not, right?

331
00:15:29,638 --> 00:15:32,418
Like, the way that physicists might approach, I don't know, a box of gas

332
00:15:32,418 --> 00:15:33,638
in an oven or something like this.

333
00:15:34,008 --> 00:15:36,658
Um, it's pretty interesting stuff, but I think, uh, At least according to my

334
00:15:36,658 --> 00:15:40,388
advisor, and I later met with this, with this guy, his name is Viktor Yakubenko,

335
00:15:40,518 --> 00:15:42,998
he does a lot of interesting work, so I actually wound up meeting with him and

336
00:15:42,998 --> 00:15:45,178
talking with him a whole bunch about Bitcoin, I gave a presentation to his

337
00:15:45,178 --> 00:15:48,198
research group at the University of Maryland, about like why Bitcoin is

338
00:15:48,198 --> 00:15:50,828
super, should be super interesting for people that think the way that he does,

339
00:15:51,333 --> 00:15:54,673
But according to him, he's like often struggled bringing deep concepts of

340
00:15:54,693 --> 00:15:59,113
energy into like, you know, macroeconomic discourse and, and sort of saying, Hey,

341
00:15:59,123 --> 00:16:02,463
no, you really need to like, our entire worldview as economists needs to be

342
00:16:02,463 --> 00:16:06,343
built around the notion of energy being scarce, and thinking about the economy as

343
00:16:06,363 --> 00:16:08,173
a machine that like moves energy around.

344
00:16:08,173 --> 00:16:10,403
And that's not like, I think, the overwhelming way that

345
00:16:10,403 --> 00:16:11,833
economists approach their field.

346
00:16:11,893 --> 00:16:15,483
But it's a really interesting, I think, way, at least to someone like me, who

347
00:16:15,483 --> 00:16:17,573
again, is a physicist and a Bitcoiner.

348
00:16:17,603 --> 00:16:20,393
I'm like, yeah, that makes more sense than a lot of the other stuff I hear.

349
00:16:20,393 --> 00:16:21,063
So I don't know.

350
00:16:22,063 --> 00:16:27,773
I would say it's a dangerous path though, uh, like if, if an idea like that gets

351
00:16:27,953 --> 00:16:32,873
the attention of some wannabe central planner, that it's a good, uh, you know,

352
00:16:33,333 --> 00:16:39,681
hierarchy ladder climber, then it may be tested on real humans and that's always

353
00:16:39,701 --> 00:16:45,801
a bad idea in economics to, to, to try to, you know, supervise an economy.

354
00:16:46,299 --> 00:16:52,232
Yeah, so, um, Bitcoin is often said to be backed by energy and by that

355
00:16:52,232 --> 00:16:57,552
people mean that the, the, the mining computers, um, sacrifice energy in

356
00:16:57,552 --> 00:17:02,122
order to secure the network and find the next block and thereby be paid

357
00:17:02,122 --> 00:17:04,102
in Bitcoin for doing so by the users.

358
00:17:04,102 --> 00:17:04,392
Right?

359
00:17:04,842 --> 00:17:10,940
So, my latest stick, if you will, or stick, if it's stick or stick,

360
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,220
No, I think it's shtick, shtick, you got it right.

361
00:17:13,430 --> 00:17:13,670
right?

362
00:17:13,980 --> 00:17:18,215
Uh, it's, it's not backed by energy, it's backed by human action because

363
00:17:18,265 --> 00:17:24,486
behind all those, um, ASICs is always, a human actor choosing to buy them and

364
00:17:24,486 --> 00:17:27,866
choosing to run the software and choosing to plug them in and do the thing.

365
00:17:28,211 --> 00:17:32,151
so everything in Bitcoin requires a human being to act.

366
00:17:32,561 --> 00:17:34,161
It does nothing by itself.

367
00:17:34,161 --> 00:17:39,705
It still needs human beings acting on their, acting on incentives to function.

368
00:17:40,395 --> 00:17:46,885
And the funny thing is, when you really boil that idea down to what it actually

369
00:17:46,885 --> 00:17:51,920
means, it's like, uh, It's just an agreement on a fixed set of rules, and

370
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:58,950
the reason we agree on these rules is that these rules, we see, by understanding

371
00:17:58,950 --> 00:18:03,850
the system, we can tell that these rules are more expensive to try to cheat

372
00:18:03,980 --> 00:18:08,760
than to follow, that if we just follow the rules, it's more profitable for us

373
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:14,104
than to try to cheat them, if we do, we can get this finite number worth.

374
00:18:14,419 --> 00:18:19,109
Uh, which you can divide everything by, uh, and you get into this wonderful

375
00:18:19,109 --> 00:18:22,599
world of hyperbitcoinization, at least in the back of your head, when you

376
00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:24,459
imagine what the future might hold.

377
00:18:24,499 --> 00:18:26,859
And, and then you think, holy shit.

378
00:18:26,909 --> 00:18:28,189
And then you just follow along.

379
00:18:28,209 --> 00:18:31,999
And if you think about all the, all the machines and all the physics

380
00:18:32,289 --> 00:18:36,399
that are involved in Bitcoin and all the mathematics, all of that is just

381
00:18:36,839 --> 00:18:38,839
extensions of our minds, really.

382
00:18:39,156 --> 00:18:44,856
all the ASICs are doing are, Speeding up the rate of calculation that we

383
00:18:44,856 --> 00:18:50,022
can do with our heads, because running the code is just solving the equation

384
00:18:50,412 --> 00:18:54,102
and doing a hash, like you might as well do it by hand, it will take you

385
00:18:54,102 --> 00:18:57,932
a lot more time and it won't be very efficient, but at the end of the

386
00:18:57,932 --> 00:18:59,942
day, the ASIC is just a fancy abacus.

387
00:19:00,727 --> 00:19:04,957
Uh, so, so that's, that's a lot of what I talk about, uh, these days and how

388
00:19:05,157 --> 00:19:08,997
everything in Bitcoin is, it's just information, which, which means that it's,

389
00:19:09,307 --> 00:19:14,717
it's just us and all the computers used in it are just tools to make us better.

390
00:19:15,159 --> 00:19:20,069
but Bitcoin itself, it's not like other things on computers, uh, which

391
00:19:20,069 --> 00:19:24,699
may or may not be us, but Bitcoin is definitely us because it's us agreeing

392
00:19:24,709 --> 00:19:26,919
on a fixed set of rules and it's.

393
00:19:27,204 --> 00:19:28,504
Totally voluntary.

394
00:19:28,534 --> 00:19:31,904
So Bitcoin is the Bitcoiners, the way I see it.

395
00:19:31,934 --> 00:19:33,034
But what do you say to that?

396
00:19:34,124 --> 00:19:37,234
I think, this is coming back to maybe your prior question around being an Austrian

397
00:19:37,234 --> 00:19:40,024
or, or knowing much about Austrian economics, like, I think some of the

398
00:19:40,024 --> 00:19:43,754
language around human action and this kind of stuff is, it, that, I'm, I'm not

399
00:19:43,754 --> 00:19:46,904
trying to disagree or say it's wrong or anything, I, I think, I think I understand

400
00:19:46,904 --> 00:19:49,424
those words and the way you mean them, it sort of makes sense to me, but the

401
00:19:49,444 --> 00:19:54,249
language that I choose to use to describe, I think, the same idea is it's just Right.

402
00:19:54,289 --> 00:19:57,699
And I don't believe that Bitcoin is made of energy, even though I think

403
00:19:57,699 --> 00:20:01,449
I've said things like that, like, you know, either earlier in my life or

404
00:20:01,449 --> 00:20:04,759
while drinking or whatever, it's, it's a poetic, it's a poetic way to think

405
00:20:04,794 --> 00:20:06,564
Digital energy, you know, yeah.

406
00:20:06,579 --> 00:20:08,839
yeah, it's much like, it's much like your, do you hear this slogan?

407
00:20:08,839 --> 00:20:10,129
It's a little bit of a metaphor, right?

408
00:20:10,129 --> 00:20:13,229
Like, um, I think if I want to be more precise, I would say

409
00:20:13,229 --> 00:20:15,709
that Bitcoin is sold for energy.

410
00:20:16,524 --> 00:20:18,954
And that doesn't mean it is energy, right?

411
00:20:18,954 --> 00:20:20,724
That's, that's a very different statement.

412
00:20:20,724 --> 00:20:23,744
Just because something is exchanged for something doesn't make it that thing.

413
00:20:24,174 --> 00:20:27,234
And so I think Bitcoin is a market in which we exchange energy for

414
00:20:28,044 --> 00:20:31,004
Oh, you mean it's bought, it's bought for energy, right?

415
00:20:32,004 --> 00:20:32,194
Bitcoin.

416
00:20:32,224 --> 00:20:34,684
Yeah, and of course an exchange can be looked at as a buy or a

417
00:20:34,684 --> 00:20:36,144
sell depending on which asset you

418
00:20:36,164 --> 00:20:36,524
Yeah, yeah.

419
00:20:36,524 --> 00:20:39,534
But I mean, I mean, the process of mining is really buying Bitcoins

420
00:20:39,944 --> 00:20:44,554
for energy, in a way, since you sacrifice energy to get the Bitcoin.

421
00:20:45,104 --> 00:20:47,784
Yeah, it's from the miner's perspective, I would say that you are

422
00:20:47,794 --> 00:20:49,574
buying the Bitcoin with this energy.

423
00:20:49,624 --> 00:20:51,874
And I would say from the network's perspective, they are selling

424
00:20:51,884 --> 00:20:53,234
the Bitcoin for that energy.

425
00:20:54,304 --> 00:20:54,714
Yeah.

426
00:20:54,824 --> 00:21:00,124
Uh, uh, which implies the, the somewhat vulgar word, word

427
00:21:00,224 --> 00:21:01,824
monetary energy, which is...

428
00:21:02,094 --> 00:21:06,364
It's like this cross between physics and praxeology that can't

429
00:21:06,374 --> 00:21:07,994
really, they don't really mix.

430
00:21:08,579 --> 00:21:09,849
Yeah, it's, it's, it's a metaphor.

431
00:21:09,999 --> 00:21:10,689
And that's, that's fine.

432
00:21:11,229 --> 00:21:11,379
Yeah.

433
00:21:11,379 --> 00:21:12,939
Like, but that's, that's, that's not a real thing.

434
00:21:12,939 --> 00:21:14,489
Like it's just, there's actual energy.

435
00:21:14,709 --> 00:21:18,129
I mean, real energy is, is used to make, and if you will, if you would like the

436
00:21:18,129 --> 00:21:21,509
human choices that go into that decision, like someone has to make the choice to

437
00:21:21,509 --> 00:21:23,019
use that energy to create hash rate.

438
00:21:23,029 --> 00:21:24,729
And then they sell that hash rate for Bitcoin.

439
00:21:25,449 --> 00:21:29,719
And so I think sometimes I think about like, Bitcoin uses energy that like,

440
00:21:29,839 --> 00:21:31,739
it doesn't really even use energy.

441
00:21:31,894 --> 00:21:34,194
people use energy to buy Bitcoin.

442
00:21:34,634 --> 00:21:39,081
And That's just a market phenomenon, and it's so much of what we find compelling

443
00:21:39,091 --> 00:21:42,831
about Bitcoin, in my view, and so many of its strengths, and I think perhaps

444
00:21:42,831 --> 00:21:46,441
you would agree with this, this corollary to your earlier statement, is like,

445
00:21:46,441 --> 00:21:50,061
because of the freedom, or the human action, or in my words, the market

446
00:21:50,061 --> 00:21:53,321
that underlies Bitcoin, that's really what creates the properties we want.

447
00:21:53,731 --> 00:21:58,551
So the uncensorability, the robustness, the scalability, like, these all come

448
00:21:58,551 --> 00:22:02,151
from the fact that, like, someone is being paid, To provide this service,

449
00:22:02,671 --> 00:22:06,721
and the mechanism of paying them is robust, and hard to stop, and so the

450
00:22:06,721 --> 00:22:11,301
market is just hard to stop, and grows tremendously quickly, has no barriers

451
00:22:11,301 --> 00:22:16,738
to entry, no regulations, other than the very, simple, clear regulations

452
00:22:16,738 --> 00:22:18,148
that exist in the code base, right?

453
00:22:18,188 --> 00:22:21,662
Those are part of the contract, if you like, of the market, and how it must work.

454
00:22:21,662 --> 00:22:21,676
Thank you.

455
00:22:21,817 --> 00:22:22,997
um, build and settle goods.

456
00:22:23,297 --> 00:22:26,307
So like there are regulations, they're just not regulations that are like,

457
00:22:26,847 --> 00:22:29,877
you know, by fiat in a parliamentary or legislative machine, right?

458
00:22:29,877 --> 00:22:32,667
They're just sitting there in the code, and everyone has these really strong

459
00:22:32,667 --> 00:22:37,247
protections, and the barriers to entry are extremely low, and the rewards are real,

460
00:22:37,447 --> 00:22:42,027
and so It grows tremendously quickly, and that's an amazing thing, and I think

461
00:22:42,037 --> 00:22:46,637
that I often, like my shtick, if you like, right now is, um, we need to stop

462
00:22:46,637 --> 00:22:50,397
thinking about blockchains and technology and anything that Drew, you know, found

463
00:22:50,397 --> 00:22:51,997
interesting in 2011 about Bitcoin.

464
00:22:52,667 --> 00:22:53,377
Like, that's not the point.

465
00:22:53,797 --> 00:22:56,407
Like, we need to think about the economic incentives and the markets,

466
00:22:56,437 --> 00:23:00,427
and we need to think, how do we build markets to do other things that are as

467
00:23:00,427 --> 00:23:04,688
robust as the market we have at layer one, that allows Bitcoin to operate.

468
00:23:05,223 --> 00:23:08,093
And of course, that market is going to have to use Bitcoin because the strength

469
00:23:08,093 --> 00:23:11,003
of the currency is going to help define the strength of those incentives.

470
00:23:11,473 --> 00:23:15,783
And for me, a lot of the discourse that Bitcoiners and altcoiners are

471
00:23:15,783 --> 00:23:19,083
sort of having in between them is like they're talking across purposes, right?

472
00:23:19,083 --> 00:23:22,693
Like, altcoiners have decided the blockchain is the thing that matters

473
00:23:22,693 --> 00:23:25,133
and they want to invest in the technology of the blockchain and make

474
00:23:25,183 --> 00:23:27,163
it more capable and da da da da da.

475
00:23:27,733 --> 00:23:30,063
And of course, leads to centralization because they're not really

476
00:23:30,073 --> 00:23:31,243
thinking about it as a market.

477
00:23:31,623 --> 00:23:32,533
Whereas Bitcoiners...

478
00:23:33,168 --> 00:23:36,588
I hope are more thinking about it as a market because, frankly, their

479
00:23:36,588 --> 00:23:40,078
blockchain is not a very powerful one from a computing perspective.

480
00:23:40,278 --> 00:23:42,678
A bitcoin blockchain can't do certain things that other

481
00:23:42,678 --> 00:23:43,868
people's blockchains can.

482
00:23:44,368 --> 00:23:47,098
And so we're actually protecting ourselves from a whole swath of bad

483
00:23:47,098 --> 00:23:51,343
ideas, and we're forced into, therefore, thinking about Things like Layer 2,

484
00:23:51,593 --> 00:23:54,243
right, which are separate, they're not a block, like Lightning is not a

485
00:23:54,243 --> 00:23:58,613
blockchain in any way, it's just a peer to peer application that offers market

486
00:23:58,623 --> 00:24:01,983
incentives to use Bitcoin to solve certain problems for other Bitcoiners.

487
00:24:02,273 --> 00:24:05,373
That's a very healthy way, I think, to engineer solutions

488
00:24:05,373 --> 00:24:06,823
to problems, um, using Bitcoin.

489
00:24:07,743 --> 00:24:09,683
Yes, yes, we agree completely.

490
00:24:09,983 --> 00:24:13,863
And this is also why we use the, we don't use the term altcoins

491
00:24:13,863 --> 00:24:15,143
here on the Freedom Footprint show.

492
00:24:15,143 --> 00:24:20,473
We, we use the term, uh, what we in Spain would call monedas de mierda or something.

493
00:24:20,638 --> 00:24:21,218
Uh huh.

494
00:24:21,338 --> 00:24:21,748
Uh huh.

495
00:24:21,808 --> 00:24:22,338
Shitcoins.

496
00:24:22,508 --> 00:24:22,968
Got you.

497
00:24:23,143 --> 00:24:23,793
exactly.

498
00:24:24,093 --> 00:24:26,653
So, um, that's the preferable term here.

499
00:24:27,033 --> 00:24:31,143
All right, from one thing to another, um, tell us about Unchained Capital.

500
00:24:31,183 --> 00:24:33,893
I mean, uh, there's a lot of, a lot of things going on.

501
00:24:34,803 --> 00:24:38,903
Just recently started collaborating with the, uh, the Bitcoin

502
00:24:38,903 --> 00:24:40,333
advisor in Australia, right?

503
00:24:41,318 --> 00:24:41,918
Yes.

504
00:24:42,148 --> 00:24:42,948
Yes, we did.

505
00:24:43,018 --> 00:24:45,608
Yeah, I think a little bit more publicly and formally, but yeah, it's been

506
00:24:45,608 --> 00:24:47,678
a long relationship for many years.

507
00:24:47,949 --> 00:24:52,249
I think just in general, this concept of working with advisors is something that

508
00:24:52,249 --> 00:24:53,939
is, that is really interesting to me.

509
00:24:54,179 --> 00:24:58,749
Um, I've often spoken personally that, You know, I think I have an incredible

510
00:24:58,779 --> 00:25:01,939
financial advisor, but they really don't like Bitcoin, or they don't

511
00:25:01,939 --> 00:25:05,819
get it, or they think I'm too heavily invested in Bitcoin, and that's not a

512
00:25:05,819 --> 00:25:07,529
perspective that really resonates with me.

513
00:25:07,859 --> 00:25:10,899
Um, I think I'm the right, I think I'm the right amount of invested in

514
00:25:10,899 --> 00:25:13,849
Bitcoin, which is, I have about as few dollars as I can tolerate having.

515
00:25:13,909 --> 00:25:14,959
That's my, that's my life.

516
00:25:15,518 --> 00:25:16,008
and...

517
00:25:16,618 --> 00:25:22,112
I think my advisor performing their fiduciary duty towards me, and they

518
00:25:22,112 --> 00:25:25,162
don't agree with some of my worldview around this stuff, they kind of think

519
00:25:25,162 --> 00:25:28,262
I'm making a mistake, and they're like always trying to steer me towards, I

520
00:25:28,272 --> 00:25:31,312
think you should sell some bitcoin, you have a lot of wealth locked up in

521
00:25:31,312 --> 00:25:35,097
bitcoin and an unchained capital, which is actually just a More Bitcoin, right?

522
00:25:35,147 --> 00:25:39,567
Um, so like, sell some of that, go buy ETFs and hold on to those, and that's

523
00:25:39,577 --> 00:25:43,737
very good advice, like, like I think, um, on some level, and I think my advisor

524
00:25:43,737 --> 00:25:47,207
has to give me that advice, but it's not advice that, that, that I'm gonna

525
00:25:47,257 --> 00:25:49,517
ever take, and so there's a, there's a

526
00:25:49,637 --> 00:25:51,407
So, so it's not good advice then.

527
00:25:51,662 --> 00:25:53,492
Well, I mean, I guess what's good in this case, right?

528
00:25:53,532 --> 00:25:56,422
It's like, depending on if it turns out he's right, it's good.

529
00:25:56,432 --> 00:25:57,642
It's going to be good advice, right?

530
00:25:57,642 --> 00:25:58,312
I should have done that.

531
00:25:58,312 --> 00:26:01,702
But if it turns out I'm right, then of course, it's bad advice on a level, right?

532
00:26:02,262 --> 00:26:04,402
There's also knowing oneself and so on.

533
00:26:04,402 --> 00:26:08,882
So it's like, I've come to accept that there's a big gap a lot of times between

534
00:26:08,912 --> 00:26:13,777
a person who is like, gone into Bitcoin and then and gone far and then any

535
00:26:13,777 --> 00:26:15,137
traditional form of financial advice.

536
00:26:15,287 --> 00:26:18,627
But at the same time, like I really value my financial advice.

537
00:26:18,657 --> 00:26:21,267
They solve a lot of problems for me and like many of the areas

538
00:26:21,267 --> 00:26:23,377
of my life that aren't directly sitting related to Bitcoin.

539
00:26:23,607 --> 00:26:25,987
Um, so I think it's generically very useful.

540
00:26:26,317 --> 00:26:28,957
Person to have, not, not everybody needs one, you know, like I think

541
00:26:29,027 --> 00:26:32,077
I'll speak for Joe when we both sold our business and we made some money.

542
00:26:32,217 --> 00:26:33,657
I immediately went and got a financial advisor.

543
00:26:33,657 --> 00:26:36,767
Joe immediately started reading S1s and managing his own investments, right?

544
00:26:36,797 --> 00:26:38,797
And it's like, I'm not going to do that.

545
00:26:39,077 --> 00:26:41,807
So like I hired an investor, an advisor, right?

546
00:26:41,807 --> 00:26:43,217
So different strokes, different people.

547
00:26:43,217 --> 00:26:43,597
I get it.

548
00:26:43,607 --> 00:26:45,457
Like not everybody needs it, but I need it.

549
00:26:45,527 --> 00:26:48,767
Like I'm not great with money and I need a person to tell me what to do

550
00:26:48,767 --> 00:26:50,107
sometimes and give me good advice.

551
00:26:50,947 --> 00:26:52,827
But when that person has a completely different worldview

552
00:26:52,857 --> 00:26:56,407
about what's happening with money, suddenly it becomes hard again.

553
00:26:56,407 --> 00:26:56,787
Right?

554
00:26:57,087 --> 00:27:01,917
And so I, I love the idea that there exists now a brave population of

555
00:27:01,927 --> 00:27:05,412
financial advisors who are willing to like, experience ridicule, take

556
00:27:05,422 --> 00:27:08,932
on personal risk, perhaps like be one of the first people in their

557
00:27:08,992 --> 00:27:12,452
country or their jurisdiction talking about how actually no, my fiduciary

558
00:27:12,452 --> 00:27:15,752
responsibility is to tell you to buy Bitcoin in some appropriate amount.

559
00:27:16,032 --> 00:27:17,922
To help you do that securely, right?

560
00:27:17,922 --> 00:27:20,722
To help you learn about keys, to help you think about inheritance.

561
00:27:20,732 --> 00:27:22,002
This is a new asset class.

562
00:27:22,002 --> 00:27:26,502
And, um, I've come to believe truthfully that, you know, I think

563
00:27:26,502 --> 00:27:30,642
a financial advisor has a investment management mandate typically

564
00:27:30,642 --> 00:27:32,012
when they are managing dollars.

565
00:27:32,582 --> 00:27:34,782
They're part of what they have to do is they have to grow those dollars.

566
00:27:34,782 --> 00:27:38,322
That's like part of what you expect from, from them in a world that's

567
00:27:38,392 --> 00:27:42,232
ever in like sort of hyperbitcoinizing like that, that requirement,

568
00:27:42,252 --> 00:27:43,622
that mandate is, is minimized.

569
00:27:43,836 --> 00:27:45,776
if they're helping you manage your Bitcoin, right?

570
00:27:45,776 --> 00:27:47,326
Like they're not, they don't need to invest it.

571
00:27:47,336 --> 00:27:48,076
It's going to grow.

572
00:27:48,206 --> 00:27:49,066
It's, it's deflationary.

573
00:27:49,296 --> 00:27:51,066
Like that's, uh, they don't need to do that work.

574
00:27:51,326 --> 00:27:53,226
So, in a sense, like, what replaces that work?

575
00:27:53,406 --> 00:27:55,296
And I think there's a lot to replace it.

576
00:27:55,516 --> 00:27:58,846
Like, there's a lot of things to learn now about key management and

577
00:27:59,156 --> 00:28:03,756
sort of inheritance and security and all sorts of other aspects of Bitcoin

578
00:28:03,766 --> 00:28:07,329
ownership that are totally unique and different than, Traditional financial

579
00:28:07,329 --> 00:28:08,539
planning and investment management.

580
00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:11,079
But I do think that these are the remit of advisors.

581
00:28:11,409 --> 00:28:16,229
And so I'm seeing with our partnership in Australia and hopefully more

582
00:28:16,669 --> 00:28:19,809
coming partnerships with other advisors and other firms, like people

583
00:28:19,809 --> 00:28:21,589
who are taking on that challenge.

584
00:28:21,759 --> 00:28:24,649
They're saying, okay, it's not just my job to tell you that Bitcoin

585
00:28:24,649 --> 00:28:27,769
is good or educate you about it or help you decide on an allocation.

586
00:28:27,769 --> 00:28:29,039
It's actually, I have to go further.

587
00:28:29,159 --> 00:28:31,929
I can't just say, go buy 10 percent of your net worth in Bitcoin

588
00:28:31,929 --> 00:28:32,999
and let you go use Coinbase.

589
00:28:33,697 --> 00:28:36,527
I need to help you actually come up with a real solution.

590
00:28:36,527 --> 00:28:38,207
So are you thinking about self custody?

591
00:28:38,347 --> 00:28:40,427
Maybe collaborative custody is the right model for you.

592
00:28:40,457 --> 00:28:44,047
Maybe I need to hold a key as your advisor in a quorum that

593
00:28:44,057 --> 00:28:45,207
you also still have control.

594
00:28:45,207 --> 00:28:47,277
Like, there are lots of interesting structures right

595
00:28:47,277 --> 00:28:48,867
there that get to be created.

596
00:28:48,867 --> 00:28:52,057
And I think the best advisors are already thinking about those issues.

597
00:28:52,592 --> 00:28:57,922
Yes, and, and, you know, there's no, uh, one size fits all solution for this.

598
00:28:58,292 --> 00:29:02,042
Every, every Bitcoiner needs their own solution to all of these problems, really.

599
00:29:02,042 --> 00:29:05,782
It's so, so personal, since it's just information at the end of the day.

600
00:29:05,782 --> 00:29:08,522
It's, it becomes part of you, and it's very, very personal.

601
00:29:08,742 --> 00:29:10,042
And I always joke around with...

602
00:29:10,122 --> 00:29:13,942
Peter Dunnworth, the Bitcoin advisor about these things and say, I tell him

603
00:29:13,942 --> 00:29:17,612
that, like, you have the easiest job in the world for the next hundred years.

604
00:29:17,742 --> 00:29:21,772
Like all you need to tell your customers is buy as much Bitcoin as you can.

605
00:29:21,782 --> 00:29:26,402
Like, and he, he has this thesis that as long as you have one Satoshi more

606
00:29:26,422 --> 00:29:28,792
every year, you're a total winner.

607
00:29:28,842 --> 00:29:33,362
Like there's no way you can lose if you have one Satoshi more this

608
00:29:33,362 --> 00:29:34,782
year than what you had last year.

609
00:29:34,812 --> 00:29:35,872
And there's something to that.

610
00:29:36,532 --> 00:29:40,072
You know, that's an interesting framing, but I think you know this, but just to say

611
00:29:40,072 --> 00:29:42,172
it out loud, like, it is not an easy job.

612
00:29:42,182 --> 00:29:45,432
It is not easy to be one of the first people in your industry to

613
00:29:45,472 --> 00:29:47,222
come out and say, Bitcoin is good.

614
00:29:47,222 --> 00:29:47,972
Like, trust me.

615
00:29:48,202 --> 00:29:51,772
Hey, all regulators come and look at me and, you know, inspect every

616
00:29:51,772 --> 00:29:54,532
little thing that I do, because you think I'm somehow now doing something

617
00:29:54,542 --> 00:29:56,042
untoward with my clients, right?

618
00:29:56,042 --> 00:29:59,122
Like, there's a lot of costs to deciding to be public about

619
00:29:59,122 --> 00:30:00,522
supporting Bitcoin in that industry.

620
00:30:01,247 --> 00:30:05,747
Absolutely you have, you have to go to El Salvador to be a, a, a

621
00:30:05,747 --> 00:30:07,607
financial advisor properly these

622
00:30:07,682 --> 00:30:10,462
Or, or you, or you got to be brave and you got to be willing to do it on

623
00:30:10,462 --> 00:30:13,042
your own and you don't get a lot of the protections of a massive firm that

624
00:30:13,052 --> 00:30:15,132
is too timid to endorse your strategy.

625
00:30:15,162 --> 00:30:15,442
Yeah,

626
00:30:16,458 --> 00:30:17,208
ahead of the curb,

627
00:30:17,983 --> 00:30:18,563
Exactly.

628
00:30:19,588 --> 00:30:21,688
So, so what else is going on at the on chain?

629
00:30:21,688 --> 00:30:23,758
What, what are you working with at the moment?

630
00:30:24,503 --> 00:30:28,403
So, uh, the advisory is just, you know, one of the leaf nodes of a, of a big tree

631
00:30:28,403 --> 00:30:29,913
of value that we're trying to create here.

632
00:30:29,943 --> 00:30:32,363
You know, I feel like the core, the trunk of that is just the

633
00:30:32,363 --> 00:30:33,923
concept of collaborative custody.

634
00:30:34,103 --> 00:30:37,173
You know, something that we came to very, very early in our business's history.

635
00:30:37,583 --> 00:30:40,983
Just, there's multisig, which is, you know, built in a Bitcoin.

636
00:30:40,983 --> 00:30:44,063
Anybody can use multisig through free tools and wallets, some of

637
00:30:44,063 --> 00:30:45,493
which we've created, like Caravan.

638
00:30:45,923 --> 00:30:49,373
But there's collaborative custody, which is the notion that multiple parties

639
00:30:49,573 --> 00:30:51,223
should be holding those multiple keys.

640
00:30:51,553 --> 00:30:55,853
And come up as you say with a bespoke like model that fits the

641
00:30:55,853 --> 00:30:59,650
situation and sometimes different quorum sizes, different, allocation

642
00:30:59,650 --> 00:31:03,230
of keys to different parties that is appropriate or not appropriate

643
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,630
depending on the person and the product.

644
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,720
And so I think the way to think about Unchained is we couple the custodial

645
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,440
solution to the financial product.

646
00:31:12,005 --> 00:31:13,885
And we don't agree that they should be separate.

647
00:31:13,885 --> 00:31:16,975
We think they have to be together in this early stage of, um,

648
00:31:17,035 --> 00:31:18,175
you know, Bitcoin adoption.

649
00:31:18,525 --> 00:31:21,535
And so when you get a vault at Unchained, it's a multi sig vault.

650
00:31:21,535 --> 00:31:22,325
It's two of three.

651
00:31:22,755 --> 00:31:26,175
And because of collaborative custody, you as the vault owner,

652
00:31:26,175 --> 00:31:28,575
the depositor, the funds holder, you're going to have two keys.

653
00:31:28,775 --> 00:31:30,095
And Unchained's going to have the third.

654
00:31:30,535 --> 00:31:32,455
So this makes you sovereign, right?

655
00:31:32,455 --> 00:31:33,975
Like, you have two out of the three keys.

656
00:31:33,975 --> 00:31:34,965
Two keys are necessary.

657
00:31:35,205 --> 00:31:36,535
You can move the funds at any time.

658
00:31:36,935 --> 00:31:40,525
If you lose a key, Then you can always work with Unchained and now

659
00:31:40,525 --> 00:31:43,915
we'll have the second key and we can recover and sweep the funds, but of

660
00:31:43,915 --> 00:31:46,685
course, because we only have one key, we can never move them on our own.

661
00:31:47,435 --> 00:31:53,235
This is a beautiful compromise between the strength of self custody, uh, and without

662
00:31:53,235 --> 00:31:56,965
the dangers, right, of being singularly responsible yourself for doing all this.

663
00:31:56,985 --> 00:32:00,455
Some people can do that, not everybody can, and so this is a great solution.

664
00:32:01,057 --> 00:32:05,127
the same exact multi sig structure, two of three, is what Unchain also

665
00:32:05,127 --> 00:32:06,937
uses to power our lending program.

666
00:32:06,967 --> 00:32:09,917
So you can borrow against Bitcoin, you can collateralize the value of

667
00:32:09,917 --> 00:32:11,297
your Bitcoin and get dollars out.

668
00:32:11,797 --> 00:32:14,677
Um, you don't have to sell it, which is almost always economically the

669
00:32:14,677 --> 00:32:17,037
right decision because Bitcoin grows so quickly, you definitely don't

670
00:32:17,037 --> 00:32:18,037
want to sell it if you can avoid it.

671
00:32:18,662 --> 00:32:22,732
So we still use a 2 of 3 multisig for our loans, but we choose to distribute

672
00:32:22,782 --> 00:32:24,062
the keys in a different quorum.

673
00:32:24,622 --> 00:32:28,022
So instead of you as the borrower holding two keys, which would allow you

674
00:32:28,022 --> 00:32:30,832
to just, you know, walk away with the collateral, you only get to have one.

675
00:32:31,442 --> 00:32:33,742
And Unchained will have a second key, and we'll have a third key

676
00:32:33,742 --> 00:32:35,132
held by an independent third party.

677
00:32:35,512 --> 00:32:39,662
It's still a 2 of 3, and each party has one key, so no single party can

678
00:32:39,662 --> 00:32:40,712
now move the funds on their own.

679
00:32:41,172 --> 00:32:42,082
This is a very stable structure.

680
00:32:42,092 --> 00:32:45,422
If we want to liquidate your loan or we need to return it to you or whatever it

681
00:32:45,422 --> 00:32:47,882
is, we're going to have to collaborate either with you as the borrower or

682
00:32:48,072 --> 00:32:49,322
with that independent third party.

683
00:32:50,212 --> 00:32:54,142
And so this is a really nice conceit because it gives us a lot of safety

684
00:32:54,152 --> 00:32:55,482
around collateral management.

685
00:32:55,922 --> 00:32:59,217
Um, You know, as the borrower, we're not rehypothecating your

686
00:32:59,227 --> 00:33:00,967
assets on the back end, right?

687
00:33:00,967 --> 00:33:03,737
Like these are very powerful protections and they're delivered to all the

688
00:33:03,737 --> 00:33:06,887
participants in the, in the custody through a cryptographic channel.

689
00:33:06,907 --> 00:33:08,307
So you don't even have to trust that we're doing this.

690
00:33:08,307 --> 00:33:11,227
You can verify that the product works the way that we're describing.

691
00:33:11,677 --> 00:33:14,837
And I think part of the reason that Unchained is one of the few lenders

692
00:33:14,867 --> 00:33:18,057
in the Bitcoin collateralized world left, at least, you know, in the world

693
00:33:18,057 --> 00:33:21,647
and in the United States, is because of these constraints and protections.

694
00:33:21,767 --> 00:33:23,237
You know, I'm a big believer that.

695
00:33:24,562 --> 00:33:27,272
Almost everything that, that is allowed is, you know, mandatory

696
00:33:27,272 --> 00:33:29,002
almost, um, or will happen.

697
00:33:29,082 --> 00:33:32,322
And so if you put in hard constraints in your business, like we can never

698
00:33:32,322 --> 00:33:38,902
do this, it prevents whole like, like modes of behavior and malfeasance and

699
00:33:38,902 --> 00:33:43,112
whatever else, you know, Unchained has never had to, um, ask ourselves, should

700
00:33:43,112 --> 00:33:44,882
we rehypothecate our client's assets?

701
00:33:44,892 --> 00:33:47,202
Should we make an investment in this dangerous thing to make a

702
00:33:47,202 --> 00:33:48,492
bunch of money for our own business?

703
00:33:49,392 --> 00:33:50,052
We can't do it.

704
00:33:50,392 --> 00:33:50,672
Right?

705
00:33:50,742 --> 00:33:53,842
I would like to believe we never would do it, even if we had the ability,

706
00:33:53,992 --> 00:33:55,212
but we don't have the ability.

707
00:33:55,502 --> 00:33:57,102
And that means we never have to ask the question.

708
00:33:57,382 --> 00:34:00,792
So we don't have to rely on our moral character, or our strength, or like

709
00:34:00,792 --> 00:34:01,822
the alignment of our executives.

710
00:34:01,892 --> 00:34:04,382
We just built it into the product that it's just fucking impossible to do it.

711
00:34:04,932 --> 00:34:05,552
I love that.

712
00:34:05,602 --> 00:34:09,202
And it means that I don't have to constantly be the cultural, you

713
00:34:09,202 --> 00:34:12,262
know, watchdog making sure everybody is doing all the right things.

714
00:34:12,292 --> 00:34:12,962
It's just built in.

715
00:34:13,052 --> 00:34:14,612
And I think that's super powerful.

716
00:34:15,467 --> 00:34:20,707
And this is like in line with the Bitcoin ethos, I guess, in a sense,

717
00:34:20,707 --> 00:34:25,377
then is that, is that why you make the moral choices you make or is

718
00:34:25,567 --> 00:34:29,287
It's, it's, it's a mix, you know, truthfully, like, I think I'm, I would

719
00:34:29,287 --> 00:34:34,337
say today in 2023, I can say truthfully that I think this aligns better with

720
00:34:34,347 --> 00:34:39,837
the Bitcoin ethos just overall, but I would say that in 2017, 18, when this

721
00:34:39,837 --> 00:34:42,807
was all being built out, I don't know that that was the reason I was building.

722
00:34:43,397 --> 00:34:45,497
Like, the biggest reason I was building it was security.

723
00:34:46,027 --> 00:34:47,867
Because I looked at, okay, what is my budget?

724
00:34:48,027 --> 00:34:50,007
I am a seven person startup.

725
00:34:50,267 --> 00:34:51,627
You know, I have this much money.

726
00:34:52,337 --> 00:34:54,527
How will I protect my clients funds?

727
00:34:54,867 --> 00:34:58,725
Am I really going to be able to do a better job than, these giant

728
00:34:58,735 --> 00:35:01,980
exchanges that literally were hacked you know, last week or whatever?

729
00:35:02,020 --> 00:35:05,815
I know I'm scratching my head being like, man, there's no way Big

730
00:35:05,845 --> 00:35:07,395
companies get hacked all the time.

731
00:35:07,425 --> 00:35:10,115
I will never be able to keep the stuff safe on my own.

732
00:35:10,585 --> 00:35:11,495
And so, what do I do?

733
00:35:11,825 --> 00:35:16,835
Do I just not solve the problem and make it BitGo's problem or Coinbase's problem?

734
00:35:16,835 --> 00:35:18,795
Or give it to a custodian?

735
00:35:18,795 --> 00:35:21,095
Like, that is almost the rational choice.

736
00:35:21,415 --> 00:35:23,515
Because you say, this is very hard, I don't have the budget to do this, I'll

737
00:35:23,515 --> 00:35:24,805
pay somebody else to solve the problem.

738
00:35:25,345 --> 00:35:26,565
That's just great economics, right?

739
00:35:26,565 --> 00:35:28,065
That's specialization at work.

740
00:35:28,645 --> 00:35:29,935
But in my head, I was like, fuck that.

741
00:35:29,935 --> 00:35:30,860
I don't trust those people.

742
00:35:31,170 --> 00:35:31,400
Right?

743
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,033
Because isn't the notion of centralizing custody part of

744
00:35:34,033 --> 00:35:35,633
what leads to these bad outcomes?

745
00:35:35,633 --> 00:35:36,451
Like, you know, Mt.

746
00:35:36,451 --> 00:35:37,931
Gox and Bifinex and all these things.

747
00:35:38,271 --> 00:35:42,191
So I kind of just convinced myself, dude, I have another option.

748
00:35:42,201 --> 00:35:43,451
Multi sig exists.

749
00:35:43,822 --> 00:35:46,232
we were already using multi sig internally at Unchained.

750
00:35:46,242 --> 00:35:48,972
We had all the keys and we were just using an internal multi sig

751
00:35:48,982 --> 00:35:52,782
quorum like most custodians who do custody will have something like

752
00:35:52,782 --> 00:35:54,182
that internally to their systems.

753
00:35:54,772 --> 00:35:56,692
And I realized we should just share the keys.

754
00:35:56,967 --> 00:36:00,807
If I just spread the keys out, like, between me and all the customers, then

755
00:36:00,827 --> 00:36:05,101
I'll have keys around the planet, and to attack, the Bitcoin, you'll have to

756
00:36:05,101 --> 00:36:08,671
hack me and 10, 000 separate customers?

757
00:36:09,221 --> 00:36:10,171
That's not going to work.

758
00:36:10,401 --> 00:36:11,861
Like, you'll just hack somebody else.

759
00:36:12,301 --> 00:36:15,471
And so I started to think to myself, like, okay, I got to do this, like,

760
00:36:15,481 --> 00:36:19,721
and it's because At this point, then I can live in a world where Unchained's

761
00:36:19,771 --> 00:36:23,241
private key, like the loss of that private key, does not mean the loss of Bitcoin.

762
00:36:24,011 --> 00:36:26,861
Now, obviously, we have never lost our private key, we've never been hacked in

763
00:36:26,861 --> 00:36:29,971
that way, I never intend to be, it'll be a huge pain in my ass if that happens.

764
00:36:30,301 --> 00:36:32,421
But if it happens, it's not the end of the Bitcoin.

765
00:36:32,421 --> 00:36:33,731
And that was very important to me.

766
00:36:33,761 --> 00:36:36,391
I had to live in that world, otherwise I couldn't go to bed at night.

767
00:36:38,066 --> 00:36:38,456
choice?

768
00:36:38,776 --> 00:36:42,766
So, so how KYC does this, like

769
00:36:42,956 --> 00:36:44,016
how much KYC?

770
00:36:44,316 --> 00:36:44,656
Yeah.

771
00:36:44,961 --> 00:36:45,791
Oh, very, very.

772
00:36:45,801 --> 00:36:48,871
We are a US financial institution, we are regulated, so we know who our

773
00:36:48,986 --> 00:36:50,456
So you need to follow, follow,

774
00:36:50,561 --> 00:36:50,911
need...

775
00:36:51,531 --> 00:36:51,991
Yeah, we do.

776
00:36:52,031 --> 00:36:54,311
And now, to be fair, we're not zealots about it.

777
00:36:54,431 --> 00:36:56,861
I think we collect the minimum data that we need in order to

778
00:36:56,861 --> 00:37:00,241
legally and safely, like, be able to offer our financial products.

779
00:37:00,441 --> 00:37:04,141
I'll also go further and say, though, part of what I've realized is, even

780
00:37:04,141 --> 00:37:09,792
without KYC, right, as a regulation, as a practice, I completely endorse it.

781
00:37:09,882 --> 00:37:11,542
I need to know who my customer is.

782
00:37:11,592 --> 00:37:13,152
I'm in collaborative custody with them.

783
00:37:13,392 --> 00:37:15,172
They're going to ask me to sign a transaction.

784
00:37:15,412 --> 00:37:17,282
I need to be able to verify their identity.

785
00:37:17,782 --> 00:37:22,872
So there's this notion of, like, of privacy versus anonymity, you know,

786
00:37:23,122 --> 00:37:26,622
and I think I'm, like, Unchained lives in a world where we cannot offer you

787
00:37:26,622 --> 00:37:30,672
anonymity, one, because of regulations and compliance reasons, two, because we

788
00:37:30,672 --> 00:37:34,352
must know who you are in the real world so that we can verify your identity.

789
00:37:34,522 --> 00:37:38,152
We're constantly under attack, and our clients are constantly under attack,

790
00:37:38,152 --> 00:37:41,837
and the fact that we know what they look like, that we can, Reach out to

791
00:37:41,837 --> 00:37:46,167
them in the real world, that we can use non, you know, application web based

792
00:37:46,167 --> 00:37:49,987
channels to just have that conversation is really important to serving them well.

793
00:37:50,424 --> 00:37:53,094
I wish that there was no government connection to this.

794
00:37:53,264 --> 00:37:55,264
I wish that only, only we needed to know.

795
00:37:55,264 --> 00:37:58,074
We never would be in a position to have to share that information ever.

796
00:37:58,344 --> 00:38:01,464
But as a regulated financial institution, like, we have to comply with subpoenas,

797
00:38:01,674 --> 00:38:02,844
like, like we have to do other things.

798
00:38:02,844 --> 00:38:06,384
So it's like, I take a little bit more of a nuanced view that us

799
00:38:06,404 --> 00:38:09,724
knowing who our customers are is really, really valuable and important.

800
00:38:10,230 --> 00:38:12,070
and it helps protect them.

801
00:38:12,100 --> 00:38:16,170
And so when you work with Unchained, you are saying, I am okay losing

802
00:38:16,180 --> 00:38:18,890
anonymity, but I still demand privacy.

803
00:38:19,305 --> 00:38:22,145
And so we work incredibly hard to make sure that we don't

804
00:38:22,155 --> 00:38:23,575
leak customer data, right?

805
00:38:23,575 --> 00:38:26,305
We build a lot of things in house when we use third party services.

806
00:38:26,305 --> 00:38:29,555
We minimize absolutely the amount of data that's going to those systems.

807
00:38:30,485 --> 00:38:34,045
We've been largely successful, if not perfectly successful in our business's

808
00:38:34,045 --> 00:38:35,775
history at accomplishing this.

809
00:38:36,194 --> 00:38:37,534
It's a, it's a very much a trade off.

810
00:38:37,634 --> 00:38:42,694
Now, with that said, I think there's a huge space for anonymous,

811
00:38:42,908 --> 00:38:44,488
versions of collaborative custody.

812
00:38:44,788 --> 00:38:47,368
And eventually, anonymous financial services as well.

813
00:38:48,028 --> 00:38:49,968
Um, it's just harder to build those things.

814
00:38:50,090 --> 00:38:52,640
and I think where I'm sitting, like, we're building the thing that

815
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,737
I think comes first know, like, I love, like, the BISC guys and, like,

816
00:38:56,747 --> 00:38:59,777
a lot of the other approaches to being able to do truly anonymous.

817
00:39:00,737 --> 00:39:04,017
Exactly, man, that stuff is great, and I think it has to grow.

818
00:39:04,427 --> 00:39:06,637
But I also live in the United States.

819
00:39:06,677 --> 00:39:08,397
I'm building a business in the United States.

820
00:39:08,447 --> 00:39:10,187
My investors and employees live in the United States.

821
00:39:10,237 --> 00:39:11,047
I'm trying to be...

822
00:39:11,617 --> 00:39:13,277
I'm trying to build a thing that makes sense here.

823
00:39:13,497 --> 00:39:13,717
And

824
00:39:13,772 --> 00:39:15,812
You're building a bridge, aren't

825
00:39:15,987 --> 00:39:19,907
yeah, very much like, and bridges, bridges are, were thematically all

826
00:39:19,907 --> 00:39:22,407
over our website for the first three years of our existence, because we

827
00:39:22,407 --> 00:39:25,807
saw that too, where like, we need to figure out, like, it's going to take

828
00:39:25,807 --> 00:39:28,187
time for us to make Bitcoin Bitcoin.

829
00:39:28,471 --> 00:39:32,501
replace the internet, and like, the impossible to be surveilled, and like,

830
00:39:32,511 --> 00:39:35,431
that's gonna take a couple decades, like, and between here and there,

831
00:39:35,441 --> 00:39:38,371
dollars are still gonna exist and be important, so like, let's be the

832
00:39:38,371 --> 00:39:43,031
bridge that like, allows Bitcoin to be more useful, to like, gives Bitcoiners

833
00:39:43,041 --> 00:39:46,881
more options, and then eventually, hopefully, we ourselves are putting

834
00:39:46,881 --> 00:39:48,361
certain product lines out of business.

835
00:39:48,361 --> 00:39:50,646
You know, in 30 years, if Unchain is around, are we still gonna be around?

836
00:39:51,126 --> 00:39:54,766
Doing US dollar loans, like I hope not, you know, like I

837
00:39:54,766 --> 00:39:55,996
hope no one wants those loans.

838
00:39:56,041 --> 00:39:58,551
I hope the dollars doesn't exist anymore by then.

839
00:39:58,881 --> 00:39:59,101
So,

840
00:39:59,468 --> 00:40:01,958
So there's a certain sense in which I understand that like there's a

841
00:40:01,958 --> 00:40:04,948
now and then there's a later, and I'm trying to build for now, but

842
00:40:04,958 --> 00:40:06,638
still in a way that is principled.

843
00:40:06,638 --> 00:40:10,149
I don't want to make short term decisions, for example, well eventually

844
00:40:10,149 --> 00:40:12,759
people want to have their own keys, but right now it's hard to screw

845
00:40:12,759 --> 00:40:15,359
it, I'll just have all the bitcoin, I'll rehypothecate it, and I'll do

846
00:40:15,359 --> 00:40:16,709
whatever, like that's, that's not right.

847
00:40:17,249 --> 00:40:18,509
Um, so I don't know.

848
00:40:18,814 --> 00:40:19,684
A little bit of nuance, I

849
00:40:19,804 --> 00:40:24,484
so as a specific question about the KYC process, like, is, is

850
00:40:24,524 --> 00:40:26,664
the Bitcoin public address?

851
00:40:27,211 --> 00:40:30,901
do the, do like regulators ever ask for that?

852
00:40:30,941 --> 00:40:33,791
Or is it just like this person bought Bitcoin Bitcoin for

853
00:40:33,791 --> 00:40:35,411
these men, this many dollars?

854
00:40:36,317 --> 00:40:39,997
does it ever include the actual Bitcoin address and, and,

855
00:40:39,997 --> 00:40:42,097
uh, the amount of Bitcoins?

856
00:40:42,897 --> 00:40:45,907
You're starting to ask questions that are at the boundary of what I actually

857
00:40:45,917 --> 00:40:47,647
literally know about the business.

858
00:40:47,697 --> 00:40:51,607
But in general, they're not so interested in the addresses and stuff like, I

859
00:40:51,677 --> 00:40:53,097
don't think of the world that way.

860
00:40:53,177 --> 00:40:53,797
You know what I mean?

861
00:40:54,037 --> 00:40:58,177
Like in some cases, for example, if we've had like an attacker, like, like

862
00:40:58,187 --> 00:41:01,407
attack one of our clients, and we've had to therefore file a suspicious activity

863
00:41:01,407 --> 00:41:02,887
report, like we may So thank you.

864
00:41:03,237 --> 00:41:05,567
We want to include certain information in that situation.

865
00:41:05,567 --> 00:41:08,677
We might want to report certain address information to law enforcement, right?

866
00:41:08,677 --> 00:41:11,407
In the cases where we've had clients who are being attacked and in the

867
00:41:11,407 --> 00:41:13,987
physical world and like there's all sorts of, you know, as a bank,

868
00:41:13,987 --> 00:41:15,057
we wind up in that situation.

869
00:41:15,057 --> 00:41:18,637
But in general, no, I, we, we seldom get like requests to be like, Hey, I

870
00:41:18,637 --> 00:41:19,727
need the addresses of these people.

871
00:41:20,147 --> 00:41:21,977
That's just not a thing that gets asked for.

872
00:41:21,977 --> 00:41:22,367
Right.

873
00:41:22,687 --> 00:41:25,937
Yeah, the, the, the reason I ask is because I've, I've heard the same

874
00:41:25,937 --> 00:41:29,687
story from a lot of companies in a lot of countries that like, uh, the

875
00:41:29,687 --> 00:41:34,267
KYC thing is one thing, but it's always only on the Fiat side, really.

876
00:41:34,747 --> 00:41:39,007
And the Bitcoin side, uh, the people who make these laws and the people

877
00:41:39,007 --> 00:41:42,227
who are supposed to look into the, they know nothing about this stuff.

878
00:41:42,247 --> 00:41:44,587
So it's, it's, it's hard for them to,

879
00:41:45,347 --> 00:41:49,817
And, and ironically, the fiat side almost solves itself sometimes because.

880
00:41:49,957 --> 00:41:54,547
Like, we're not required to do AML, stuff, like, when we get a deposit of

881
00:41:54,547 --> 00:41:57,527
dollars coming in, because it's coming from a US bank, and the assumption is,

882
00:41:57,527 --> 00:41:59,857
oh, it's already in the network, and therefore, like, they're doing that

883
00:41:59,857 --> 00:42:03,427
work, and whatever else, like, there are, like, the requirements can be a little

884
00:42:03,427 --> 00:42:06,067
bit more onerous on the Bitcoin side, but at the same time, like, because,

885
00:42:06,277 --> 00:42:07,277
like, what are they supposed to say?

886
00:42:07,277 --> 00:42:09,857
Like, there's no requirement that we must chain analysis everything,

887
00:42:09,867 --> 00:42:12,392
like, that's not a real law, you know, they might say, okay.

888
00:42:12,392 --> 00:42:14,952
For example, for a lending against Bitcoin collateral, they might say, well, you

889
00:42:14,952 --> 00:42:16,352
need to know where the Bitcoin came from.

890
00:42:16,352 --> 00:42:17,902
Like, where did this person get the Bitcoin from?

891
00:42:17,952 --> 00:42:19,522
So we'll ask them, where'd you get it from?

892
00:42:19,712 --> 00:42:21,702
They'll say, I bought it in 2017.

893
00:42:21,702 --> 00:42:24,312
And we'll say, great requirement met, you know, like,

894
00:42:24,626 --> 00:42:27,816
The thing I, the thing I hope will happen in the future is

895
00:42:27,856 --> 00:42:29,286
that more and more people.

896
00:42:29,843 --> 00:42:35,443
writing laws, and thinking about laws and, and, uh, regulations, uh, that,

897
00:42:35,713 --> 00:42:40,183
you know, ownership of a Bitcoin is so different from ownership of anything

898
00:42:40,188 --> 00:42:44,203
else because it's just keeping a secret and there's no way to tell if

899
00:42:44,203 --> 00:42:46,243
someone else also has that secret.

900
00:42:46,763 --> 00:42:51,213
So there's, there's really no way to tell who used a Bitcoin.

901
00:42:51,781 --> 00:42:54,721
because what does using a Bitcoin even mean?

902
00:42:54,731 --> 00:42:58,931
Like you move a number in a database that is shared by everyone

903
00:42:58,951 --> 00:43:00,881
and there's a likelihood that's.

904
00:43:01,786 --> 00:43:06,206
Someone else knew the secret, like, there's like, no real connection,

905
00:43:06,216 --> 00:43:11,626
the connection to the number is so personal, so it makes all of

906
00:43:11,626 --> 00:43:18,661
these legalities, if you will, very strange, They feel outdated somehow.

907
00:43:18,661 --> 00:43:21,111
It's, it's, it's like intellectual property that

908
00:43:21,131 --> 00:43:23,191
like, it doesn't really work.

909
00:43:23,971 --> 00:43:27,351
Then again, we're we still live in a world where we have to follow rules,

910
00:43:27,381 --> 00:43:30,791
but, but I hope that more and more people will start thinking about these things.

911
00:43:31,146 --> 00:43:32,006
I mean, it's a process.

912
00:43:32,006 --> 00:43:35,066
And unfortunately, I don't know that Bitcoin companies have done

913
00:43:35,076 --> 00:43:38,731
the best, have the best track record in educating legislators yet.

914
00:43:38,764 --> 00:43:41,414
You know, I think the shitcoin land spends a lot of time and

915
00:43:41,414 --> 00:43:44,834
money because maybe they have money to burn on lobbying and whatnot.

916
00:43:44,834 --> 00:43:46,474
Like, we're not, we're less successful.

917
00:43:46,774 --> 00:43:49,144
I think there's concepts like custodial, like, what does it mean

918
00:43:49,144 --> 00:43:52,424
to be a custodian when there's multiple keys and multiple parties?

919
00:43:52,454 --> 00:43:53,834
Like, who is the custodian now?

920
00:43:53,844 --> 00:43:55,454
Like, what is, what do you, what do you even mean anymore?

921
00:43:55,584 --> 00:43:56,224
Like, that's not possible.

922
00:43:56,234 --> 00:43:58,414
You can't have dollars in a multi sig arrangement.

923
00:43:58,424 --> 00:44:01,034
You can't put real estate in a multi sig arrangement, altcoins

924
00:44:01,394 --> 00:44:02,994
for real estate, notwithstanding.

925
00:44:03,344 --> 00:44:05,758
It's like those ideas really need to be rethought.

926
00:44:06,148 --> 00:44:06,418
You know,

927
00:44:06,678 --> 00:44:10,628
Yeah, and unhosted wallet, what the EU is calling it now.

928
00:44:10,938 --> 00:44:11,738
Like, what is that?

929
00:44:11,748 --> 00:44:12,638
What even is that?

930
00:44:12,638 --> 00:44:13,338
Like, so,

931
00:44:13,488 --> 00:44:15,898
so it's forbidden to remember 12 words now?

932
00:44:16,734 --> 00:44:18,514
Because that's an unhosted wallet, right?

933
00:44:18,544 --> 00:44:20,714
If I, if I say the word bacon

934
00:44:20,724 --> 00:44:21,474
12 times.

935
00:44:22,314 --> 00:44:22,614
Yeah.

936
00:44:22,709 --> 00:44:23,379
a criminal.

937
00:44:24,044 --> 00:44:24,404
No, no.

938
00:44:24,489 --> 00:44:28,139
I, if I remember the word bacon 12 times, I'm a criminal, because

939
00:44:28,149 --> 00:44:29,429
that's a valid Bitcoin address.

940
00:44:30,024 --> 00:44:33,798
and, and I definitely believe that, like, however you might, if you wanna

941
00:44:33,798 --> 00:44:36,438
give people as much credit as you can, and you might say that their

942
00:44:36,438 --> 00:44:41,328
intentions were good in the sense of wanting to prevent bad behavior that

943
00:44:41,328 --> 00:44:45,498
is destructive to society, but the implementation of centralized businesses,

944
00:44:45,498 --> 00:44:47,628
tracking everything about each person.

945
00:44:48,143 --> 00:44:48,563
Never.

946
00:44:48,603 --> 00:44:49,453
That's not a good solution.

947
00:44:49,463 --> 00:44:50,963
Like that just causes more problems.

948
00:44:50,963 --> 00:44:54,693
It causes the centralization of consumer data, which inevitably leaks and causes

949
00:44:54,693 --> 00:44:57,803
problems for every single person that had to participate in that process.

950
00:44:57,803 --> 00:45:01,573
It slows down my business, makes me implement and or use services I don't

951
00:45:01,573 --> 00:45:03,323
want to use and I think are dangerous.

952
00:45:03,689 --> 00:45:07,239
it's an anti pattern and I'd like I just think it would be much healthier

953
00:45:07,249 --> 00:45:12,219
if there was a different philosophy here in place about how to try to affect the

954
00:45:12,219 --> 00:45:16,309
same outcomes, nobody wants terrorists lives to be easier because of Bitcoin,

955
00:45:16,699 --> 00:45:21,629
but the solution is not make everyone's lives impoverished and worse by having

956
00:45:21,639 --> 00:45:24,159
it all be tracked by some government agency or whatever it is, right?

957
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:25,729
Like, whatever you think the problem is, right?

958
00:45:26,019 --> 00:45:27,819
don't solution a worse problem.

959
00:45:28,209 --> 00:45:28,569
Right?

960
00:45:28,739 --> 00:45:33,069
But then, then again, if people's lives were easier, they might not

961
00:45:33,069 --> 00:45:34,909
want to be terrorists as much.

962
00:45:34,999 --> 00:45:35,969
So, like, it's,

963
00:45:35,979 --> 00:45:40,469
that's this, uh, the road to hell is paved with good intentions thing,

964
00:45:40,499 --> 00:45:40,819
Yes.

965
00:45:40,959 --> 00:45:41,859
uh, going on.

966
00:45:42,309 --> 00:45:42,919
Very much.

967
00:45:43,927 --> 00:45:45,817
So how are you enjoying this episode so far?

968
00:45:46,267 --> 00:45:49,277
Before we dive back in, first a little bit about our sponsors.

969
00:45:49,857 --> 00:45:51,317
First up, Wasabi Wallet.

970
00:45:51,597 --> 00:45:55,037
The privacy by default, open source, non custodial bitcoin

971
00:45:55,037 --> 00:45:56,727
wallet with CoinJoin built in.

972
00:45:57,317 --> 00:46:01,317
It's the easy to use, comprehensive, affordable way to make your coins private.

973
00:46:01,882 --> 00:46:04,862
And the best part is they've been making huge improvements to the app.

974
00:46:05,212 --> 00:46:08,182
They're really focusing on the user experience, adding advanced

975
00:46:08,272 --> 00:46:10,802
features for power users, they just keep getting better.

976
00:46:11,352 --> 00:46:14,812
You send your coins to your Wasabi wallet and they get combined with loads of

977
00:46:14,812 --> 00:46:17,132
other coins using the Wabi Sabi protocol.

978
00:46:17,407 --> 00:46:18,947
So, they're private on the other end.

979
00:46:19,477 --> 00:46:22,967
Your tracks are covered, so you can work on expanding your freedom footprint

980
00:46:23,137 --> 00:46:24,827
without worrying about your privacy.

981
00:46:25,677 --> 00:46:26,607
So, check out wasabiwallet.

982
00:46:26,607 --> 00:46:29,767
io and download Wasabi today.

983
00:46:30,167 --> 00:46:31,517
Next up, Orange Pill App.

984
00:46:31,737 --> 00:46:34,827
The bitcoin social layer app for iOS and Android where you can

985
00:46:34,827 --> 00:46:36,327
stack friends who stack sats.

986
00:46:36,967 --> 00:46:39,837
You can connect with your favorite bitcoiners on the app, make local

987
00:46:39,837 --> 00:46:42,817
connections, and even connect with bitcoiners around the world.

988
00:46:43,377 --> 00:46:45,407
And a big feature on Orange Pill App is Vents.

989
00:46:45,952 --> 00:46:49,302
You can see what's going on in your area and connect with Bitcoiners around you.

990
00:46:49,812 --> 00:46:52,222
I've been to multiple OrangePill app events and they brought

991
00:46:52,222 --> 00:46:54,112
Bitcoiners together from all over.

992
00:46:54,752 --> 00:46:58,162
The best part is, you know it's high signal, there's no spam on OrangePill

993
00:46:58,162 --> 00:46:59,792
app because everyone pays to be there.

994
00:46:59,872 --> 00:47:01,282
It's just 3 a month.

995
00:47:01,772 --> 00:47:04,742
So download OrangePill app on Apple or Android and get connected

996
00:47:04,762 --> 00:47:06,252
to the Bitcoin social layer.

997
00:47:06,452 --> 00:47:08,952
Next up, our new sponsor, the Bitcoin Way.

998
00:47:09,547 --> 00:47:12,837
Their mission is to onboard, educate, and remove barriers to

999
00:47:12,837 --> 00:47:14,447
taking self custody of your bitcoin.

1000
00:47:15,007 --> 00:47:19,317
They cover everything from cold wallets to nodes, no KYC bitcoin purchases,

1001
00:47:19,367 --> 00:47:21,777
inheritance planning, payments, and more.

1002
00:47:22,317 --> 00:47:25,137
Whether you're new to bitcoin or you're an experienced bitcoiner looking to

1003
00:47:25,137 --> 00:47:28,987
expand your freedom footprint, or you know someone who this sounds perfect for,

1004
00:47:29,377 --> 00:47:31,247
the Bitcoin Away has something for you.

1005
00:47:31,937 --> 00:47:35,447
They have a skilled team, well versed in the bitcoin space, and their goal is to

1006
00:47:35,447 --> 00:47:39,327
make all the complexities of bitcoin as straightforward as possible for everyone.

1007
00:47:39,887 --> 00:47:42,397
And the best part is you can get started with a free 30

1008
00:47:42,397 --> 00:47:43,587
minute call with their team.

1009
00:47:44,117 --> 00:47:45,627
Go to thebitcoinway.

1010
00:47:45,657 --> 00:47:47,877
com slash contact for more info.

1011
00:47:48,347 --> 00:47:49,377
Alright back to it.

1012
00:47:49,417 --> 00:47:51,117
Don't forget to like, subscribe, and brush your teeth.

1013
00:47:51,161 --> 00:47:55,330
Drew, maybe you can tell, tell us a little bit more about, um, cause, cause you've

1014
00:47:55,330 --> 00:48:01,220
taken the conversation a few different ways here so far and, and the, a couple

1015
00:48:01,220 --> 00:48:05,890
of things that were interesting to me before, um, this conversation, you've

1016
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,060
covered a lot about the collaborative custody, but maybe kind of from the, the

1017
00:48:10,090 --> 00:48:16,677
ideas side of it, what do you hope that the, the role of Unchained looks like?

1018
00:48:16,852 --> 00:48:21,332
this 30 years, 50 years into the future and maybe a little

1019
00:48:21,332 --> 00:48:24,472
bit along the road to there.

1020
00:48:24,482 --> 00:48:25,332
Have you thought about that?

1021
00:48:26,482 --> 00:48:26,742
Yeah.

1022
00:48:26,742 --> 00:48:31,452
I mean, a little bit, I'll give you an answer maybe in two stages or generations.

1023
00:48:31,492 --> 00:48:33,182
You know, there's, there's what, what I like to.

1024
00:48:33,212 --> 00:48:36,762
to accomplish in the shorter term of that very long time period.

1025
00:48:37,232 --> 00:48:40,202
And obviously, you know, I would like Brunchain to become a

1026
00:48:40,282 --> 00:48:45,042
profitable, best in class bank and private wealth management business.

1027
00:48:45,262 --> 00:48:50,775
I think the model that we have is extremely, compelling for our clients.

1028
00:48:51,055 --> 00:48:55,385
I think we give them more control and transparency into their finances than they

1029
00:48:55,385 --> 00:48:57,035
would ever get from a traditional bank.

1030
00:48:57,890 --> 00:49:01,420
I mean, consider this, we ourselves make open source software and

1031
00:49:01,420 --> 00:49:05,020
train our clients on how, if we were to disappear as a business.

1032
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,170
Or even if we're still around, for that matter, they can, in a simple

1033
00:49:08,180 --> 00:49:11,600
transaction, use their own keys to extract all the Bitcoin in our

1034
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,300
platform, wherever else they need to go.

1035
00:49:13,540 --> 00:49:17,670
we work really hard on educating them, that like, this is your coin, you're the

1036
00:49:17,670 --> 00:49:21,850
one responsible, we're helping you, but really, you're in charge, and if you don't

1037
00:49:21,850 --> 00:49:25,770
like us, you don't like what we're doing, we disappear, we fail, we try to rug pull

1038
00:49:25,770 --> 00:49:27,410
you or whatever, like, you can get out.

1039
00:49:27,528 --> 00:49:29,355
on your own, independent of us.

1040
00:49:29,365 --> 00:49:30,585
And it's such an important point.

1041
00:49:30,858 --> 00:49:33,528
think for a lot of clients, they'll never do it, but they just

1042
00:49:33,578 --> 00:49:34,848
like to know that it's possible.

1043
00:49:35,085 --> 00:49:38,555
but because it is possible, we're then put in the position of, it's very hard

1044
00:49:38,555 --> 00:49:40,775
for us to, like, lock in our clients.

1045
00:49:40,928 --> 00:49:45,148
If we give them bad service, Or our product degrades, or they have a bad

1046
00:49:45,148 --> 00:49:49,048
experience, like they're 25 minutes away from moving millions of dollars

1047
00:49:49,048 --> 00:49:51,828
in one bitcoin transaction out of here back to somewhere else, right?

1048
00:49:52,178 --> 00:49:55,092
And in a world like that, like, how are we then incentivized?

1049
00:49:55,112 --> 00:49:58,182
Like, what, what, what is the behavior you expect from us as a business that

1050
00:49:58,182 --> 00:50:00,012
seeks to, like, grow and earn revenues?

1051
00:50:00,423 --> 00:50:02,133
We work really hard to retain those clients.

1052
00:50:02,763 --> 00:50:04,133
We have incredible customer service.

1053
00:50:04,143 --> 00:50:05,873
You call us, you get a human being on the phone.

1054
00:50:06,100 --> 00:50:09,260
we have to work hard to keep those deposits in our system.

1055
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:11,110
And I love that.

1056
00:50:11,180 --> 00:50:13,560
I love that for us, because it makes us a better business.

1057
00:50:13,570 --> 00:50:17,460
It makes us what I wish banking were, which is value added custodianship

1058
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,230
and help and financial services.

1059
00:50:19,230 --> 00:50:22,865
Not, I just got a mortgage recently for a new home, It was a disaster.

1060
00:50:22,945 --> 00:50:24,035
It was a terrible experience.

1061
00:50:24,115 --> 00:50:26,315
I was treated like shadow by the bank.

1062
00:50:26,565 --> 00:50:30,305
Um, I was prodded and asked for questions and they weren't listening to me and

1063
00:50:30,325 --> 00:50:32,865
they don't understand my business and they don't treat me as a human being.

1064
00:50:33,505 --> 00:50:34,945
I didn't even get a good deal out of it.

1065
00:50:35,368 --> 00:50:38,108
and I wish they were on chain gate mortgages because I know I

1066
00:50:38,108 --> 00:50:39,088
would have gotten a better deal.

1067
00:50:39,138 --> 00:50:41,948
I, they would have recognized my Bitcoin wealth a little bit more, right?

1068
00:50:41,948 --> 00:50:44,718
Like I would have not felt like such a commodified human being.

1069
00:50:45,100 --> 00:50:50,537
Sorry for interrupting, uh, but it feels like banks have been becoming worse and

1070
00:50:50,537 --> 00:50:55,897
worse these last couple of years, that something really crucial has shifted

1071
00:50:55,907 --> 00:50:59,687
when they can, you know, just shut off accounts and maybe they could that all

1072
00:50:59,687 --> 00:51:03,517
along, but they've been doing it for real, like, and it's, it's pretty scary.

1073
00:51:04,277 --> 00:51:05,417
What they're capable of.

1074
00:51:05,807 --> 00:51:10,267
Yeah, and I would like to operate a bank that has a different calculus

1075
00:51:10,277 --> 00:51:11,747
for what they think that they are.

1076
00:51:11,977 --> 00:51:15,257
Like, banks are all about, let us get as many of your assets in place,

1077
00:51:15,397 --> 00:51:17,760
and let us rehypothecate them, and there's this question, like,

1078
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:22,040
how does the rehypothecation of a depositor's assets help the depositor?

1079
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:23,800
Yeah, exactly.

1080
00:51:24,260 --> 00:51:27,380
Like, I have examples from my own life.

1081
00:51:27,380 --> 00:51:31,880
I tried to withdraw a quite large amount of cash a while

1082
00:51:32,250 --> 00:51:33,670
Mm hmm, that's suspicious, man.

1083
00:51:34,010 --> 00:51:35,160
What are you doing with that money?

1084
00:51:35,610 --> 00:51:36,620
the cash for?

1085
00:51:37,163 --> 00:51:38,343
none of your business.

1086
00:51:38,343 --> 00:51:39,583
It's my money, isn't it?

1087
00:51:39,693 --> 00:51:41,863
but no, they need to know.

1088
00:51:42,593 --> 00:51:44,413
no, it's, and, and it's like...

1089
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,750
We're trying to work in a different mentality, which is instead of our

1090
00:51:47,750 --> 00:51:51,070
revenue model being like, we give you everything for free, we take all your

1091
00:51:51,070 --> 00:51:54,430
money, and then we expose the risk, um, and we don't even tell you about it,

1092
00:51:54,430 --> 00:51:56,970
and you have no transparency into what's happening, and then we hassle you as

1093
00:51:56,970 --> 00:51:58,380
you try to take money out of the system.

1094
00:51:58,700 --> 00:51:59,770
We want to invert a lot of that.

1095
00:51:59,940 --> 00:52:03,020
What if you just pay us directly for the value that we provide to you?

1096
00:52:03,650 --> 00:52:06,300
And then what if we give you freedom and control to walk away

1097
00:52:06,300 --> 00:52:07,710
at any time and stop paying us?

1098
00:52:08,210 --> 00:52:12,260
This is a better set of incentives for us to operate on, like it aligns

1099
00:52:12,260 --> 00:52:13,640
our interests with our clients.

1100
00:52:14,060 --> 00:52:17,360
And the reason banks can't operate this way is because the banking industry is

1101
00:52:17,399 --> 00:52:20,380
is predicated upon the notion of reation.

1102
00:52:20,380 --> 00:52:21,820
That's how banking works, man.

1103
00:52:22,090 --> 00:52:25,270
And every time we go to traditional organizations, they look at our business

1104
00:52:25,275 --> 00:52:27,340
and they're like, I don't know why you don't just rehab, ate this stuff

1105
00:52:27,340 --> 00:52:28,180
doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

1106
00:52:28,180 --> 00:52:30,160
You guys would be making more money in the short term if you did that.

1107
00:52:30,660 --> 00:52:32,430
And my answer was always like, yeah, but that's not.

1108
00:52:32,685 --> 00:52:34,945
That is not, I don't think what banking is in the Bitcoin world.

1109
00:52:34,995 --> 00:52:38,115
And I don't want to build some hybrid yahoo.

1110
00:52:38,385 --> 00:52:38,885
com.

1111
00:52:38,955 --> 00:52:40,985
Uh, I want to build like the real thing.

1112
00:52:41,972 --> 00:52:45,542
and I think that requires having some courage and putting some constraints in

1113
00:52:45,542 --> 00:52:49,232
place and risking short term revenue in order to build something really sticky.

1114
00:52:49,232 --> 00:52:51,992
And I am proud to say, I think what we've built is incredibly sticky.

1115
00:52:52,292 --> 00:52:54,212
Like unshamed clients do, do not leave.

1116
00:52:54,272 --> 00:52:55,742
Like we have incredibly low churn.

1117
00:52:55,982 --> 00:52:56,952
Where are they going to go?

1118
00:52:57,172 --> 00:53:00,452
who has a better set of incentives to serve them and who has a better product?

1119
00:53:01,092 --> 00:53:05,302
so, yeah, so what differs you from other, uh, similar services

1120
00:53:05,342 --> 00:53:07,252
such as Casa, for instance?

1121
00:53:07,452 --> 00:53:07,722
Well,

1122
00:53:08,228 --> 00:53:13,078
so I'll first say like, it can be tempting if you're an entrepreneur to hate the

1123
00:53:13,078 --> 00:53:15,098
businesses that are closest to you.

1124
00:53:15,558 --> 00:53:18,918
yeah, yeah, I, I mean, I, I don't want you to talk shit about

1125
00:53:19,138 --> 00:53:21,852
No, I no, my point is that I never would because that's not

1126
00:53:21,852 --> 00:53:23,378
the way that I approach my work.

1127
00:53:23,583 --> 00:53:27,193
I hate when this Bitcoin wallet has beef with this Bitcoin wallet.

1128
00:53:27,333 --> 00:53:28,143
I'm like, you guys are idiots.

1129
00:53:28,153 --> 00:53:29,543
Like, you're in the same industry.

1130
00:53:29,543 --> 00:53:30,523
You need to support each other.

1131
00:53:30,523 --> 00:53:32,763
You should be fighting altcoins and apathy.

1132
00:53:32,893 --> 00:53:34,483
Like, those are the biggest competitors.

1133
00:53:34,523 --> 00:53:38,743
And what I always will say, if you're not going to use Unchained, please use Casa.

1134
00:53:39,103 --> 00:53:40,653
Like, they have an incredibly good product.

1135
00:53:40,983 --> 00:53:42,113
Like, I love their team.

1136
00:53:42,113 --> 00:53:44,233
I've learned so much from Jameson in time.

1137
00:53:44,253 --> 00:53:46,223
It's like, I, I think my product is better.

1138
00:53:46,223 --> 00:53:47,003
That's why I work here.

1139
00:53:47,003 --> 00:53:47,813
And that's why I built this.

1140
00:53:47,813 --> 00:53:51,653
I think the fact that we bundle financial services and lending and buying Bitcoin

1141
00:53:51,653 --> 00:53:55,633
and inheritance, and this is makes our product and our platform more valuable.

1142
00:53:55,673 --> 00:53:58,263
I think we're going to grow faster as a business as a result of those

1143
00:53:58,630 --> 00:54:01,960
real understandings of what Bitcoin is and where the value comes from.

1144
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:04,780
I think ultimately custody is going to be commodified.

1145
00:54:05,010 --> 00:54:07,610
And a lot of people are going to offer multi sig collaborative custody.

1146
00:54:07,630 --> 00:54:09,520
And that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

1147
00:54:09,830 --> 00:54:10,880
I'm excited about that.

1148
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,500
That creates more options for consumers in the marketplace.

1149
00:54:13,940 --> 00:54:18,060
So in general, I like to believe that it's us and Casa and other

1150
00:54:18,060 --> 00:54:21,840
Bitcoin oriented companies against everyone else who doesn't get it yet.

1151
00:54:22,190 --> 00:54:24,390
but I do think there are things that distinguish Unchained above

1152
00:54:24,390 --> 00:54:25,620
those businesses at the same time.

1153
00:54:26,405 --> 00:54:29,755
I'm very happy to hear this because this is, this is a thing that we,

1154
00:54:29,775 --> 00:54:33,315
uh, me and Luke talk about a lot and, and, uh, with our guests on the pod

1155
00:54:33,315 --> 00:54:38,173
as well, because we strongly believe that, A Bitcoin company is a Bitcoin

1156
00:54:38,223 --> 00:54:42,787
is a company who realizes that, we're all incentivized to collaborate.

1157
00:54:43,427 --> 00:54:47,857
So, so free market competition is a different thing on a Bitcoin standard.

1158
00:54:47,973 --> 00:54:51,243
in the fiat world, you fight each other and, and you, whoever

1159
00:54:51,263 --> 00:54:52,927
provides the best, well, you.

1160
00:54:53,163 --> 00:54:56,063
engage in catalactic competition is the correct term.

1161
00:54:56,093 --> 00:55:00,523
So whoever can make the best product to the cheapest price is supposed to win.

1162
00:55:01,113 --> 00:55:04,983
But in Bitcoin, it's even better than that because like Bitcoiners are incentivized

1163
00:55:05,023 --> 00:55:06,743
to help other Bitcoiners succeed.

1164
00:55:06,753 --> 00:55:09,433
Because when we do, we help Bitcoin succeed.

1165
00:55:09,463 --> 00:55:12,223
So we all, we're all incentivized to help one another.

1166
00:55:12,553 --> 00:55:18,033
And so, so to me, that's very reassuring to hear that you want Casa to succeed

1167
00:55:18,033 --> 00:55:22,038
because that's, That's what I want to hear from Bitcoin companies because we

1168
00:55:22,128 --> 00:55:26,888
should want our competitors to succeed because this thing is, is not about us.

1169
00:55:27,178 --> 00:55:27,448
It's

1170
00:55:27,448 --> 00:55:27,958
about us.

1171
00:55:28,248 --> 00:55:30,478
You know, and I, I still wanna, I still wanna win.

1172
00:55:30,518 --> 00:55:32,818
I still wanna be the best Bitcoin company, et cetera, et cetera.

1173
00:55:33,318 --> 00:55:38,092
Like, of course, but truthfully, I, I, I don't want it to be just me that wins.

1174
00:55:38,112 --> 00:55:42,042
I want there to be real competitors out there because they make me better.

1175
00:55:42,382 --> 00:55:45,712
Like, it is easy to get lazy and to take for granted the service you

1176
00:55:45,712 --> 00:55:48,242
provide to your users if you're the only place they can get it from.

1177
00:55:48,242 --> 00:55:50,222
If you know that there's another competitor that actually has a

1178
00:55:50,222 --> 00:55:53,382
really pretty good product, it forces you to always be your best.

1179
00:55:53,702 --> 00:55:57,232
And frankly, I have had so many competitors that are so terrible.

1180
00:55:57,393 --> 00:56:01,093
they're liars, they're frauds, they're people that I think their product is

1181
00:56:01,123 --> 00:56:03,023
toxic and it hurts people and they use it.

1182
00:56:03,573 --> 00:56:07,183
I welcome competitors who I actually respect, who I think produce good product

1183
00:56:07,453 --> 00:56:08,903
and actually care about their clients.

1184
00:56:08,987 --> 00:56:10,207
I want more of those.

1185
00:56:10,427 --> 00:56:14,330
And every time, a new player enters the arena that I think has good intentions

1186
00:56:14,340 --> 00:56:16,900
and has the same worldview and vision that I have and is trying to build a

1187
00:56:16,900 --> 00:56:18,390
good product, like, I'm just happy.

1188
00:56:18,748 --> 00:56:19,158
That's good.

1189
00:56:19,208 --> 00:56:20,078
That's good for consumers.

1190
00:56:20,108 --> 00:56:20,808
I'm a consumer.

1191
00:56:20,808 --> 00:56:23,718
I mean, I feel like on some level, like, I'm not sure.

1192
00:56:23,718 --> 00:56:28,028
I think, I think I might think of myself as like just a person first, like when

1193
00:56:28,028 --> 00:56:31,218
I, when I approach my business, because like, I am a client of my business as

1194
00:56:31,218 --> 00:56:32,648
are so many of my friends and family.

1195
00:56:33,008 --> 00:56:35,848
And it's very hard for me to make decisions that are like good for

1196
00:56:35,848 --> 00:56:39,008
my business, but like bad for me as a client and bad for my

1197
00:56:39,008 --> 00:56:40,872
parents or my, family and friends.

1198
00:56:40,872 --> 00:56:43,092
Like it's doesn't, it's hard to behave that way.

1199
00:56:43,092 --> 00:56:43,402
Right.

1200
00:56:43,472 --> 00:56:44,162
Like, I don't know.

1201
00:56:44,795 --> 00:56:49,845
But do you think, like, do you agree with the, that companies that are run

1202
00:56:49,845 --> 00:56:54,515
by actual Bitcoiners have a different approach to free market competition than,

1203
00:56:54,545 --> 00:57:00,080
than You know, Bitcoin companies run by fiat minded people, because I see a

1204
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:04,320
difference there where the fiat minded people just want to, you know, shut the

1205
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:10,510
competition out and fight the competition in a way that Bitcoiners true Bitcoiners

1206
00:57:10,510 --> 00:57:12,890
at heart, they don't do that in the same

1207
00:57:13,070 --> 00:57:16,780
We're caught in the no true Scotsman fallacy almost here, right, because

1208
00:57:17,190 --> 00:57:20,720
there are many examples of people who ostensibly are Bitcoiners and

1209
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,640
operate Bitcoin companies who behave like asshats all the time and are

1210
00:57:24,705 --> 00:57:26,185
wouldn't call them Bitcoiners though.

1211
00:57:26,610 --> 00:57:27,320
exactly right.

1212
00:57:27,450 --> 00:57:29,340
So at that point you say, well, you've lost the mantle,

1213
00:57:29,370 --> 00:57:30,550
like because of your behavior.

1214
00:57:31,425 --> 00:57:33,875
So like, to a degree, I do agree with you, but at the same time, like, I

1215
00:57:33,885 --> 00:57:37,325
think there are examples of people who like, maybe they talk the talk,

1216
00:57:37,355 --> 00:57:38,495
but they haven't really got it right.

1217
00:57:38,495 --> 00:57:40,585
They haven't understood that, that, like, okay, fine.

1218
00:57:40,585 --> 00:57:42,255
I understand you compete with that business, but they're

1219
00:57:42,255 --> 00:57:43,195
such a great business.

1220
00:57:43,225 --> 00:57:46,603
Like, focus your negative attentions on some other problem, right?

1221
00:57:46,603 --> 00:57:46,983
It's like,

1222
00:57:47,833 --> 00:57:50,053
But that's what I view as a fiat mine.

1223
00:57:50,063 --> 00:57:54,373
Like they're in it for the fiat gains and not for the, not for the Bitcoin.

1224
00:57:54,626 --> 00:57:58,026
so they're in for the short term gains rather than the generational wealth

1225
00:57:58,366 --> 00:58:01,776
and building, building something robust for generations to come.

1226
00:58:02,096 --> 00:58:04,256
they're acting like a bitcoiner superficially, but they kind of

1227
00:58:04,266 --> 00:58:06,156
caught in a fiat mindset, perhaps.

1228
00:58:06,256 --> 00:58:07,076
Yeah, exactly.

1229
00:58:07,542 --> 00:58:11,300
yes, there was one other thing that I thought, uh, before this interview, I

1230
00:58:11,300 --> 00:58:15,750
stumbled on a video on your, on your Twitter page from BitBlockBoom, where

1231
00:58:15,750 --> 00:58:19,420
you talk about the, and I had to retweet it because I thought it was an amazing,

1232
00:58:19,850 --> 00:58:24,708
uh, explanation of Nakamoto Consensus, uh, do you remember what you said there?

1233
00:58:24,838 --> 00:58:25,338
Yes.

1234
00:58:25,678 --> 00:58:27,798
Can you give us the, the TLDR here?

1235
00:58:27,798 --> 00:58:33,377
Because, I just loved it, and I love every good framing of

1236
00:58:33,407 --> 00:58:35,247
whatever Satoshi stumbled upon.

1237
00:58:35,582 --> 00:58:36,422
Yeah, for sure.

1238
00:58:36,422 --> 00:58:37,582
No, I feel the same way.

1239
00:58:37,592 --> 00:58:40,791
I feel like, uh, there's room for a lot of people's books and

1240
00:58:40,801 --> 00:58:44,331
attitudes and explanations because there's, it's such a rich idea.

1241
00:58:44,631 --> 00:58:48,271
So I'm like you, every time someone says like, here's another way

1242
00:58:48,271 --> 00:58:49,671
to look at why that's valuable.

1243
00:58:49,671 --> 00:58:51,201
I'm like, yes, write that down.

1244
00:58:51,251 --> 00:58:51,761
That's great.

1245
00:58:51,891 --> 00:58:56,511
Um, so that was my attempt, perhaps that for myself, like coming up with how I was

1246
00:58:56,511 --> 00:58:59,701
feeling at the time after having done a sort of last year or so, I've been doing

1247
00:58:59,701 --> 00:59:03,736
a lot of, Reading and research on like the white paper and the references it

1248
00:59:03,736 --> 00:59:06,842
contains and kind of doing that proof of work for myself, like that I hadn't

1249
00:59:06,842 --> 00:59:10,032
really ever done before, like at that level of depth, um, because I've been

1250
00:59:10,032 --> 00:59:13,642
trying to write a little bit more of a historical piece and also a future looking

1251
00:59:13,642 --> 00:59:16,663
piece on kind of these ideas around markets and incentives and, it forced

1252
00:59:16,663 --> 00:59:18,153
me to want to like really check my work.

1253
00:59:18,403 --> 00:59:22,113
So in so doing, I kind of like, it changed the way I was actually

1254
00:59:22,153 --> 00:59:26,153
thinking about what was innovative, um, about what Satoshi accomplished,

1255
00:59:26,553 --> 00:59:27,733
because I think I didn't realize.

1256
00:59:28,783 --> 00:59:32,523
Until I did this work, like how much of Bitcoin had already been conceived of by

1257
00:59:32,723 --> 00:59:37,163
many other thinkers in the space, like Nick Szabo and Wei Dai and a bunch of

1258
00:59:37,163 --> 00:59:40,823
other players, like so many of the ideas, including things like a blockchain or

1259
00:59:40,853 --> 00:59:45,517
proof of work to create money supply or chains of, public key signatures as a way

1260
00:59:45,557 --> 00:59:49,298
to think about transactions, like all of these ideas are like old and existed, for

1261
00:59:49,298 --> 00:59:52,253
in fact a decade or more, and so I kind of found myself being like, well, what

1262
00:59:52,253 --> 00:59:54,283
did Satoshi do that was new and unique?

1263
00:59:54,648 --> 00:59:59,258
And for a while I assumed that it was the difficulty adjustment, because that's

1264
00:59:59,308 --> 01:00:02,688
a very sexy, cool, new idea in Bitcoin.

1265
01:00:03,045 --> 01:00:06,475
But after this work, I kind of came to the conclusion that even the difficulty

1266
01:00:06,475 --> 01:00:10,875
adjustment is actually the consequence of an earlier thing that Satoshi brought to

1267
01:00:10,875 --> 01:00:15,305
Bitcoin, and I was able to put it, when it sort of hit me, like, oh, obviously

1268
01:00:15,305 --> 01:00:19,575
this is the thing, like, Satoshi is the first person or entity or group, I always

1269
01:00:19,745 --> 01:00:23,603
force myself to like, try to remember, we don't know who they are, is the first time

1270
01:00:23,833 --> 01:00:26,183
that someone brought a monetary policy.

1271
01:00:26,408 --> 01:00:31,858
Into a digital currency that be money and bit gold and a bunch of these

1272
01:00:31,878 --> 01:00:33,358
projects that existed in the past.

1273
01:00:33,588 --> 01:00:37,308
Like they had made all these links between money and proof of work and all these

1274
01:00:37,468 --> 01:00:39,358
notions, but anybody could create money.

1275
01:00:39,624 --> 01:00:42,724
there was no rule to prevent that from happening.

1276
01:00:42,954 --> 01:00:44,564
If you did the work, you could create the money.

1277
01:00:44,752 --> 01:00:47,708
and I think what's remarkable is Satoshi decided, I don't like that.

1278
01:00:47,766 --> 01:00:49,636
I want there to be a finite supply of money.

1279
01:00:49,646 --> 01:00:52,648
That was a, that was a monetary goal, many people, I think, saw the

1280
01:00:52,658 --> 01:00:56,358
value of a digital currency, like to solve problems of censorship or,

1281
01:00:56,618 --> 01:01:00,528
you know, transaction utility or whatever, like those ideas were there.

1282
01:01:00,548 --> 01:01:00,878
Right?

1283
01:01:00,928 --> 01:01:04,475
and I think there was a thread of stronger monetary policy throughout

1284
01:01:04,475 --> 01:01:07,755
some of that, but it was a little bit more focused on the cypherpunk ethos

1285
01:01:07,755 --> 01:01:10,355
of like freedom and uncensorability.

1286
01:01:10,355 --> 01:01:10,370
Thank you.

1287
01:01:10,727 --> 01:01:14,637
Satoshi was the first to really bring, no, there has to be strong monetary policy.

1288
01:01:14,968 --> 01:01:18,987
and my claim is, I'm not making an Austrian claim about economics.

1289
01:01:19,007 --> 01:01:22,547
I'm not saying that Bitcoin won because of its strong monetary policy and

1290
01:01:22,547 --> 01:01:24,007
finite supply for economic reasons.

1291
01:01:24,017 --> 01:01:24,707
That might be true.

1292
01:01:24,849 --> 01:01:26,079
I'm not debating that point.

1293
01:01:26,079 --> 01:01:27,719
That, I think that is true.

1294
01:01:27,719 --> 01:01:31,409
I'm making a stronger claim, which is literally the technical underpinning.

1295
01:01:31,439 --> 01:01:33,439
Like, how do you get the code to do the thing?

1296
01:01:33,789 --> 01:01:34,129
Right?

1297
01:01:34,159 --> 01:01:38,059
Like, once you decide, I want there to be a finite money supply,

1298
01:01:38,569 --> 01:01:39,739
everything else falls out of that.

1299
01:01:40,019 --> 01:01:42,969
And it's my claim that if you were to be given B money, like the

1300
01:01:43,089 --> 01:01:46,219
proposal that was created by Wayguy for how to have an auction for the

1301
01:01:46,219 --> 01:01:47,929
creation of B money, etc, etc, etc.

1302
01:01:48,169 --> 01:01:49,609
In which anybody can create the money supplies.

1303
01:01:49,939 --> 01:01:54,819
If I gave you that paper and I said, hey, take this idea of Wayguy's and eliminate

1304
01:01:54,819 --> 01:01:56,739
the freedom of users to create money.

1305
01:01:56,877 --> 01:01:59,327
make the money created on this fixed schedule.

1306
01:01:59,762 --> 01:02:00,732
Because I want it to be that way.

1307
01:02:01,302 --> 01:02:03,892
If I gave you that goal, I think you would invent Bitcoin.

1308
01:02:04,239 --> 01:02:06,319
And I think that was like the path that Satoshi took.

1309
01:02:06,509 --> 01:02:08,519
And b money is the first reference in the white paper.

1310
01:02:08,879 --> 01:02:14,332
And Bitcoin is b money with the freedom for users to create money eliminated.

1311
01:02:14,488 --> 01:02:18,798
that's my one liner about what I, what I now think and in that clip that you

1312
01:02:18,798 --> 01:02:24,301
posted, I made the claim that it turns out that you get, Nakamoto consensus

1313
01:02:24,301 --> 01:02:27,331
and double spend protection and all these magical things like they just

1314
01:02:27,341 --> 01:02:31,061
fall out of the code as soon as you decide you want this monetary goal.

1315
01:02:31,486 --> 01:02:34,766
And that's the reason that it was Satoshi, this weird cypherpunk guy

1316
01:02:34,766 --> 01:02:38,186
who thought about money, who came up with Nakamoto Consensus and made that

1317
01:02:38,186 --> 01:02:41,426
breakthrough, and it wasn't a computer scientist working at the cutting edge

1318
01:02:41,426 --> 01:02:44,536
of distributed systems theory, because that person's goal, they didn't, they

1319
01:02:44,536 --> 01:02:47,616
weren't thinking about monetary policy, even if they knew about B money and they

1320
01:02:47,616 --> 01:02:51,736
thought about Byzantine problems, like, they wouldn't have made this, this leap.

1321
01:02:51,756 --> 01:02:57,066
It was Satoshi's, like, First desire for a monetary policy goal that then became

1322
01:02:57,066 --> 01:03:00,626
the essential technical simplification that caused everything else to show up.

1323
01:03:00,666 --> 01:03:01,546
That's, that's my claim.

1324
01:03:02,871 --> 01:03:04,021
Yeah, that's so cool.

1325
01:03:04,090 --> 01:03:08,552
and it's all because of this internal limits of the thing

1326
01:03:08,692 --> 01:03:13,222
that makes like the longest chain actually be the most valuable chain.

1327
01:03:14,482 --> 01:03:15,332
It's beautiful.

1328
01:03:15,562 --> 01:03:21,293
So to that point, was Bitcoin the first cryptocurrency or

1329
01:03:21,293 --> 01:03:22,303
is it the last cryptocurrency?

1330
01:03:24,947 --> 01:03:25,307
Both.

1331
01:03:25,657 --> 01:03:26,117
Why not?

1332
01:03:26,685 --> 01:03:30,715
I would say it's more of the last than the first, but okay, uh, is it

1333
01:03:31,095 --> 01:03:32,665
an invention or a discovery then?

1334
01:03:33,277 --> 01:03:35,237
Oh, definitely a discovery.

1335
01:03:36,032 --> 01:03:38,712
Yes, we agree 100 percent on that as well then.

1336
01:03:39,497 --> 01:03:40,787
And I think I've written about that.

1337
01:03:40,787 --> 01:03:43,487
I think fucking aliens have Bitcoin and it works the same way.

1338
01:03:43,697 --> 01:03:46,907
Maybe they don't have the different shah, you know, or hashing algorithm.

1339
01:03:46,917 --> 01:03:49,647
Maybe it's a different, you know, total supply curve, who

1340
01:03:49,647 --> 01:03:50,957
cares that those are details.

1341
01:03:51,007 --> 01:03:57,052
But I think the idea that you build a market that Has proof of work to, uh, to

1342
01:03:57,062 --> 01:04:02,352
record, you know, in a, in a, in a, uh, append only log, like the transactions

1343
01:04:02,362 --> 01:04:05,982
of a society in a way that solves these coordination problems is a discovery.

1344
01:04:06,052 --> 01:04:07,372
It's like discovering fusion.

1345
01:04:07,592 --> 01:04:10,237
It's like discovering So, uh, to You know, DNA.

1346
01:04:10,237 --> 01:04:12,007
It's like, it's like part of the world around us.

1347
01:04:12,247 --> 01:04:13,767
And we, we, we discovered it.

1348
01:04:14,335 --> 01:04:19,035
Okay, so friendly aliens come to our planet, you know, like the aliens in

1349
01:04:19,035 --> 01:04:21,635
boxes in Mexico, they were probably friendly, they look friendly.

1350
01:04:22,233 --> 01:04:26,803
They come here and they have their own version of Bitcoin, Bitcoin

1351
01:04:26,913 --> 01:04:27,783
called Bitcoin or something.

1352
01:04:28,063 --> 01:04:31,563
And their, their chain is longer than ours.

1353
01:04:32,383 --> 01:04:33,313
More proof of work.

1354
01:04:33,863 --> 01:04:34,553
What do we do?

1355
01:04:34,836 --> 01:04:35,776
what money wins?

1356
01:04:36,166 --> 01:04:37,186
Theirs or ours?

1357
01:04:37,776 --> 01:04:39,506
Would we, would we exchange it for theirs?

1358
01:04:39,971 --> 01:04:41,581
I mean, I've written a huge amount about this.

1359
01:04:41,581 --> 01:04:43,551
I thought about this question way too much.

1360
01:04:43,581 --> 01:04:46,931
I think for a person who lives in an era where humanity can barely

1361
01:04:46,931 --> 01:04:49,341
make it off the planet, like I thought about this too much.

1362
01:04:49,876 --> 01:04:51,766
It's quite an unlikely scenario.

1363
01:04:51,771 --> 01:04:52,351
Yes.

1364
01:04:52,401 --> 01:04:52,791
Yes.

1365
01:04:52,851 --> 01:04:54,651
Uh, I would say it depends, right?

1366
01:04:54,671 --> 01:04:57,911
Like, so a conclusion I also came to in, in those ponderings, which I,

1367
01:04:58,151 --> 01:05:00,851
if you Google Bitcoin astronomy, you will find the whole ridiculous series.

1368
01:05:01,230 --> 01:05:03,080
I think there's two ideas to play with.

1369
01:05:03,100 --> 01:05:08,180
One is that like blockchains like Bitcoin can exist or monetary systems, if you

1370
01:05:08,180 --> 01:05:11,810
like, or whatever, they can exist at separate points in space and that it's

1371
01:05:11,810 --> 01:05:16,840
kind of a stable concept that like, there's no reason to build another Bitcoin

1372
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:20,460
blockchain here on earth, like for your special reason, like it makes no sense.

1373
01:05:20,460 --> 01:05:24,420
But if you go very, very far away, like there are challenges in using

1374
01:05:24,430 --> 01:05:27,300
Bitcoin or mining Bitcoin specifically, if you go very, very far away.

1375
01:05:27,300 --> 01:05:28,470
So it actually may make sense.

1376
01:05:28,684 --> 01:05:31,284
if you get, you know, light minutes or light years away from

1377
01:05:31,284 --> 01:05:32,894
Earth, like, yeah, you're going to need to build your own money.

1378
01:05:32,894 --> 01:05:33,424
Okay, I get that.

1379
01:05:33,424 --> 01:05:33,864
That makes sense.

1380
01:05:34,084 --> 01:05:37,944
And then there's the second idea of, well, actually, even in the same

1381
01:05:37,944 --> 01:05:42,254
place, it can kind of make sense, I think, to have a second kind of money,

1382
01:05:42,544 --> 01:05:44,784
but one that is, like, much larger.

1383
01:05:45,239 --> 01:05:48,599
So instead of having a block time of like 10 minutes like Bitcoin has, which is kind

1384
01:05:48,599 --> 01:05:53,689
of good for a planetary scale currency, what if you had a block time of 30 days?

1385
01:05:53,792 --> 01:05:58,552
now suddenly the scope or scale and energy budget and concerns and

1386
01:05:58,552 --> 01:06:01,172
time scale of this currency starts to look a little bit different.

1387
01:06:01,172 --> 01:06:05,350
It's not very practical anymore for A human economy of today, like on a planet,

1388
01:06:05,670 --> 01:06:10,500
but maybe it is perfect for a solar system wide economy where, you know, transactions

1389
01:06:10,500 --> 01:06:14,280
typically take centuries to confirm and that's okay because that's about how

1390
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:18,360
long it takes to deliver, a gigaton of carbon, like around the solar system.

1391
01:06:18,420 --> 01:06:21,580
So there's these two ideas of chains that can exist simultaneously that

1392
01:06:21,580 --> 01:06:23,410
are far away, but also larger.

1393
01:06:24,060 --> 01:06:27,480
So coming back to your question, they show up and they have more hashrate than us.

1394
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:30,640
Well, I guess it would depend which kind of blockchain we're talking about.

1395
01:06:30,660 --> 01:06:33,680
Is it their home planet's blockchain, which is infinitely far away

1396
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:35,060
from us and has higher hashrate?

1397
01:06:35,060 --> 01:06:35,870
Okay, we don't give a shit.

1398
01:06:35,939 --> 01:06:37,189
they're here on Bitcoin land.

1399
01:06:37,189 --> 01:06:39,869
Now they're playing by our rules because hashrate is suppressed

1400
01:06:39,869 --> 01:06:41,139
exponentially as you get further away.

1401
01:06:41,139 --> 01:06:43,079
That's like one of the first results that I share in that series.

1402
01:06:43,309 --> 01:06:46,619
Conversely, If their blockchain is a galactic blockchain or some ridiculous

1403
01:06:46,619 --> 01:06:50,079
idea, and we're actually inside of it right now, and we didn't realize that,

1404
01:06:50,259 --> 01:06:52,859
and it has a higher hash rate than we do, well then yeah, you're going

1405
01:06:52,859 --> 01:06:56,199
to start to expect to see our guys starting to mine that, you know, parent

1406
01:06:56,249 --> 01:06:57,279
chain that we're sitting inside of.

1407
01:06:57,279 --> 01:06:57,409
Bitcoin

1408
01:06:58,139 --> 01:07:01,609
I absolutely love that answer because like, that's one of the

1409
01:07:01,639 --> 01:07:05,419
concepts that the people don't think about is the hash horizon.

1410
01:07:05,699 --> 01:07:08,879
And for instance, Bitcoin could not work on Mars.

1411
01:07:09,150 --> 01:07:14,021
and therefore They would need their own, their own blockchain, and

1412
01:07:14,021 --> 01:07:17,061
that can't function because they're basically creating a shitcoin.

1413
01:07:17,361 --> 01:07:20,241
So the way I put it in one of the books was the one short

1414
01:07:20,241 --> 01:07:23,831
principle, like the, maybe we've heard it, absolute mathematical

1415
01:07:23,831 --> 01:07:25,481
scarcity achieved by consensus.

1416
01:07:25,596 --> 01:07:28,806
in a sufficiently decentralized distributed network was a

1417
01:07:28,806 --> 01:07:30,536
discovery rather than an invention.

1418
01:07:30,776 --> 01:07:35,346
It cannot be achieved again by a network made up of participants aware of this

1419
01:07:35,346 --> 01:07:39,696
discovery, since the very thing discovered was resistance to replicability itself.

1420
01:07:39,936 --> 01:07:44,425
So in my mind, it's the awareness of the original thing.

1421
01:07:44,586 --> 01:07:49,286
That prevents it from happening again, because all of the, all of the people

1422
01:07:49,286 --> 01:07:53,776
aware of Bitcoin have insider information as to how, how this would play out.

1423
01:07:54,302 --> 01:07:56,042
So that's why it can't play out again.

1424
01:07:56,042 --> 01:07:57,532
That's the immaculate conception.

1425
01:07:57,822 --> 01:08:01,942
And everything in Bitcoin plays, like it's, if you take

1426
01:08:01,942 --> 01:08:03,292
a shower and use a towel.

1427
01:08:03,542 --> 01:08:05,132
You get one result, you get dry.

1428
01:08:05,362 --> 01:08:08,092
If you use the towel first and take a shower afterwards,

1429
01:08:08,092 --> 01:08:09,642
you get a different result.

1430
01:08:09,672 --> 01:08:13,762
So, like, the chain of events that actually played out

1431
01:08:13,812 --> 01:08:15,412
play a huge part in Bitcoin.

1432
01:08:15,722 --> 01:08:18,882
And we don't know if it would have existed at all if we just

1433
01:08:18,942 --> 01:08:21,432
changed the tiniest parameter.

1434
01:08:21,432 --> 01:08:23,792
So, in my mind, it's just like the universe and the

1435
01:08:23,792 --> 01:08:25,032
constants of the universe.

1436
01:08:25,302 --> 01:08:28,852
We don't know if we destroy the entire thing, if the model

1437
01:08:28,892 --> 01:08:31,032
have been just like in a...

1438
01:08:31,642 --> 01:08:35,724
infinitesimally small, digit of pi or something.

1439
01:08:35,724 --> 01:08:38,564
If that was changed, there might not have been a universe at all.

1440
01:08:38,854 --> 01:08:42,856
And I think the same is true for, for Bitcoin, that if one of the

1441
01:08:42,886 --> 01:08:47,141
parameters, if, what, The target was 12 minutes between blocks.

1442
01:08:47,181 --> 01:08:49,741
The whole thing might, might have fallen apart.

1443
01:08:50,251 --> 01:08:55,551
And Yeah, and if Satoshi hadn't waited for the second miner to come online

1444
01:08:55,551 --> 01:08:59,661
for two weeks before he started mining, it might not have worked at all.

1445
01:08:59,951 --> 01:09:01,061
We don't know any of this.

1446
01:09:01,711 --> 01:09:06,971
All we know is that it works now and we can observe it and, uh, yeah, and

1447
01:09:06,971 --> 01:09:08,591
that's why it's so insanely fascinating.

1448
01:09:08,771 --> 01:09:12,606
But I think, I think also there's this notion of like, We're so early that

1449
01:09:12,606 --> 01:09:17,716
we barely understand it, you know, I think, like, 300 years from now and

1450
01:09:17,716 --> 01:09:21,986
Bitcoin has been ascendant for centuries and everyone assumes this is how it

1451
01:09:21,986 --> 01:09:25,586
always worked, it's so fucking obvious that Bitcoin, da da da da da, like,

1452
01:09:25,586 --> 01:09:30,241
I think our level of understanding of All of this will be higher, right?

1453
01:09:30,241 --> 01:09:33,732
To the point where, potentially we will have an engineering discipline

1454
01:09:33,762 --> 01:09:37,182
of like, okay, how do you launch a completely market driven,

1455
01:09:37,492 --> 01:09:39,652
decentralized system to solve a problem?

1456
01:09:39,682 --> 01:09:41,792
Like, you follow this methodology, right?

1457
01:09:41,861 --> 01:09:43,151
it's just engineering at that point.

1458
01:09:44,501 --> 01:09:48,841
in our grandchildren's minds, us three here, this conversation

1459
01:09:48,841 --> 01:09:49,961
will be drooling idiots.

1460
01:09:50,191 --> 01:09:50,461
Like,

1461
01:09:50,841 --> 01:09:51,811
yes, exactly.

1462
01:09:52,091 --> 01:09:52,381
Yeah.

1463
01:09:53,131 --> 01:09:54,271
there's no way around that.

1464
01:09:54,571 --> 01:09:58,831
So I hope at least has entertainment value to them so they can laugh at us.

1465
01:10:00,571 --> 01:10:04,361
But the thing about the awareness, if we go back to the alien thing, uh,

1466
01:10:04,681 --> 01:10:09,166
That's why I think you couldn't really bootstrap, a galactic blockchain after

1467
01:10:09,166 --> 01:10:10,606
you found it for your own planet.

1468
01:10:10,996 --> 01:10:14,236
And you probably couldn't build a galactic civilization before

1469
01:10:14,236 --> 01:10:15,406
you found it on your planet.

1470
01:10:15,406 --> 01:10:15,706
Right?

1471
01:10:16,556 --> 01:10:18,926
So it might not work at all on a galactic scale.

1472
01:10:20,306 --> 01:10:21,266
Who knows, man?

1473
01:10:21,286 --> 01:10:22,276
Who has any idea?

1474
01:10:22,416 --> 01:10:29,416
I think in my suppositions, what I took to be a path was, like, we would, through

1475
01:10:29,416 --> 01:10:33,026
this engineering discipline, like, if there are problems that that thing solves,

1476
01:10:33,366 --> 01:10:37,286
that we couldn't solve with Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is inherently finite and

1477
01:10:37,286 --> 01:10:41,166
a certain size and built for a certain scale, which is to say the scale of

1478
01:10:41,166 --> 01:10:46,416
planet Earth, um, um, Maybe it solves a problem and then maybe we would build it.

1479
01:10:46,416 --> 01:10:50,226
And so I spent a lot of time trying to justify to myself why, if you're

1480
01:10:50,226 --> 01:10:54,386
sufficiently far away, you struggle to use Bitcoin and therefore you have

1481
01:10:54,386 --> 01:10:58,696
a real problem that you can solve by replicating a new version of Bitcoin.

1482
01:10:58,896 --> 01:11:00,996
And to me, this is, this is a fun experiment at work because when

1483
01:11:00,996 --> 01:11:03,636
I first had these ideas and I was like tossing around to my, you

1484
01:11:03,636 --> 01:11:05,266
know, my Bitcoin maxi colleagues.

1485
01:11:05,566 --> 01:11:07,156
They're like, fuck you, dude, you shit coiner.

1486
01:11:07,256 --> 01:11:08,296
Like, what are you talking about?

1487
01:11:08,296 --> 01:11:11,336
Like, but then it took a little while to say, well, no, there's one, there's

1488
01:11:11,336 --> 01:11:15,666
one difference, which is I'm talking about doing this so far away that

1489
01:11:16,206 --> 01:11:18,156
like, that's a meaningful new idea.

1490
01:11:18,226 --> 01:11:18,516
Right.

1491
01:11:18,536 --> 01:11:21,316
That like, it's not like, it's not like, oh, Bitcoin is

1492
01:11:21,326 --> 01:11:22,756
imperfect in this one tiny way.

1493
01:11:22,756 --> 01:11:24,326
I want to change this one thing about it.

1494
01:11:24,336 --> 01:11:25,496
And that's why I'm going to succeed.

1495
01:11:25,506 --> 01:11:26,376
It's like, that's not, that's never

1496
01:11:26,436 --> 01:11:27,156
No, no.

1497
01:11:27,366 --> 01:11:29,766
But that, But that, is the awareness part.

1498
01:11:29,976 --> 01:11:34,206
That is the awareness because it has to be far, far away enough for, for

1499
01:11:34,206 --> 01:11:35,886
there to not be an awareness about it.

1500
01:11:36,186 --> 01:11:40,506
Like, uh, so, so that's part of the hash horizon in that stance in my mind.

1501
01:11:40,536 --> 01:11:46,375
Uh, and, uh, Why, why it can't be, This is one of those abstract concepts that

1502
01:11:46,375 --> 01:11:50,945
I just, simply just love because it's so bizarre and yet so fun to think about.

1503
01:11:50,945 --> 01:11:51,095
It's

1504
01:11:51,250 --> 01:11:54,530
it was a fun argument that we, I think we did a poll was like.

1505
01:11:54,810 --> 01:11:57,660
You know, if you were to live on Mars, would you prefer, like, would you

1506
01:11:57,660 --> 01:12:00,047
join the Mars new coin revolution?

1507
01:12:00,067 --> 01:12:03,097
Like, yeah, whatever, like, would you, I think I called it a must coin revolution,

1508
01:12:03,097 --> 01:12:05,047
which I'm unhappy about now, but whatever.

1509
01:12:05,237 --> 01:12:09,417
Um, it's like, would you be a Bitcoin, like, Tory, or would you go support

1510
01:12:09,447 --> 01:12:10,807
must coin and be a revolutionary?

1511
01:12:10,807 --> 01:12:13,337
That was the, that was the question we asked, and it was fun, man.

1512
01:12:13,337 --> 01:12:16,137
People argued about it for a while, because it's interesting, right?

1513
01:12:16,137 --> 01:12:19,197
Like, you, you feel like a shit coiner saying, well, no, I wouldn't want to

1514
01:12:19,197 --> 01:12:22,532
use Bitcoin in that situation, but it's an interesting, I think, Litmus

1515
01:12:22,552 --> 01:12:25,774
test of are you the kind of person that believes Bitcoin is the solution

1516
01:12:25,774 --> 01:12:29,884
to literally the entire universe's needs to exchange economic value?

1517
01:12:29,914 --> 01:12:33,084
Or do you accept that there actually may be some limitations potentially?

1518
01:12:33,384 --> 01:12:34,364
It's an interesting question.

1519
01:12:35,054 --> 01:12:38,914
But the thing, the answer I would give to that is like, I wouldn't use Bitcoin

1520
01:12:39,044 --> 01:12:41,894
because I couldn't trust it, because I couldn't verify it, blah, blah, blah.

1521
01:12:42,394 --> 01:12:48,014
Uh, but I definitely wouldn't use fucking musk coin or any other, any other shit

1522
01:12:48,044 --> 01:12:54,494
coin, even if it was newly minted and created on Mars, because everyone on

1523
01:12:54,494 --> 01:13:00,753
Mars using that cryptocurrency, for lack of a better word, Would be aware

1524
01:13:00,753 --> 01:13:04,203
of Bitcoin and therefore they would have insider information and there would

1525
01:13:04,223 --> 01:13:08,533
be a mining cabal and everything would be fucked from the get go, probably.

1526
01:13:09,123 --> 01:13:11,763
Yeah, it's, it's a fun, it's a fun thing to hypothesize over.

1527
01:13:12,093 --> 01:13:12,563
I like it.

1528
01:13:13,263 --> 01:13:16,613
Yes, we have to continue that conversation at one point.

1529
01:13:16,703 --> 01:13:19,173
Luke, do you have any final questions for Dhruv?

1530
01:13:19,468 --> 01:13:21,288
Because I think this is a good end point.

1531
01:13:21,973 --> 01:13:22,383
Sure.

1532
01:13:22,383 --> 01:13:25,613
Well, then I won't take us down any completely new rabbit holes.

1533
01:13:25,663 --> 01:13:29,813
Uh, do you see any threats to Bitcoin?

1534
01:13:29,813 --> 01:13:34,013
And I'm talking long term because we take the philosophical long view here.

1535
01:13:34,013 --> 01:13:37,663
Do you see anything that would prevent Bitcoin from fulfilling its mission?

1536
01:13:38,851 --> 01:13:39,121
Yeah.

1537
01:13:39,121 --> 01:13:44,844
I mean, I see, I think there's always A worry due to the nature of computing

1538
01:13:44,844 --> 01:13:47,484
and so on, it's really hard to eradicate this worry that there is some sort of

1539
01:13:47,484 --> 01:13:48,844
weird ass bug somewhere in Bitcoin.

1540
01:13:49,534 --> 01:13:51,464
Like, this is something I've always worried about, right?

1541
01:13:51,464 --> 01:13:54,274
And I think the more time that passes, the less likely that is.

1542
01:13:54,421 --> 01:13:58,731
in 2013, Like there, we know now there were bugs in Bitcoin and

1543
01:13:58,731 --> 01:14:00,341
we removed some of them, right?

1544
01:14:00,401 --> 01:14:01,381
Um, and that's good.

1545
01:14:01,591 --> 01:14:03,231
As time goes on, I think that's less and less likely, but

1546
01:14:03,231 --> 01:14:04,131
it's always sort of present.

1547
01:14:04,171 --> 01:14:06,581
And it's always one of those, like, I bet there'll be science fiction

1548
01:14:06,581 --> 01:14:10,941
movies in like 30, 40 years, like a flaw was discovered in Bitcoin.

1549
01:14:10,951 --> 01:14:11,641
Oh my God.

1550
01:14:11,661 --> 01:14:15,411
Like now it's, it's an interesting, fun thing to play about, but I don't actually

1551
01:14:15,411 --> 01:14:17,161
assign that a high degree of likelihood.

1552
01:14:17,171 --> 01:14:19,331
It would be catastrophic, but, but low likelihood.

1553
01:14:19,938 --> 01:14:20,558
I think.

1554
01:14:21,113 --> 01:14:22,873
Um, and this next one I'll answer in two parts.

1555
01:14:22,873 --> 01:14:26,453
I think things like quantum computing, they're not an existential threat

1556
01:14:26,453 --> 01:14:30,033
to Bitcoin itself, but they're a change that Bitcoin will have to

1557
01:14:30,033 --> 01:14:31,533
adapt to in some meaningful way.

1558
01:14:31,843 --> 01:14:36,823
And it's hard to change Bitcoin, like where anytime anybody talks about, hey,

1559
01:14:36,823 --> 01:14:40,243
I want to make this change in Bitcoin or whatever else, like, it's very

1560
01:14:40,283 --> 01:14:41,273
hard to get through that discussion.

1561
01:14:41,553 --> 01:14:42,623
And I think that's a good thing.

1562
01:14:42,643 --> 01:14:45,113
I don't think it should be easy to get through that discussion, but I

1563
01:14:45,133 --> 01:14:49,714
also, as much as I might believe in ossification, on some timeline, it's

1564
01:14:49,714 --> 01:14:53,314
not today or yesterday that we've also like, we still need to make some changes.

1565
01:14:53,334 --> 01:14:57,224
And I'm not the expert, I'm not expert enough to say exactly which ones, but I do

1566
01:14:57,224 --> 01:14:58,664
know that some things will need to change.

1567
01:14:59,524 --> 01:15:03,154
Um, hopefully minor, like smaller and smaller and smaller things over time.

1568
01:15:03,154 --> 01:15:05,974
There's a concept of Kelvin numbering, which I think informs a

1569
01:15:05,974 --> 01:15:07,454
lot of my thinking on this topic.

1570
01:15:07,954 --> 01:15:11,524
Um, But with that said, it's like, okay, how does Bitcoin adapt to

1571
01:15:11,524 --> 01:15:15,964
the sudden creation of real quantum computers, which are totally happening.

1572
01:15:16,014 --> 01:15:18,604
I think there's a lot of Bitcoiners who have their head in the sand about this and

1573
01:15:18,644 --> 01:15:22,634
refuse to accept that it's a real thing because they don't like the consequences,

1574
01:15:22,834 --> 01:15:24,544
which is we have to then come up with.

1575
01:15:25,214 --> 01:15:26,964
Decisions about what we're going to do.

1576
01:15:27,184 --> 01:15:32,284
We could do nothing and let Satoshi's P2PK coins be a giant bounty for

1577
01:15:32,284 --> 01:15:33,394
the world's first quantum computer.

1578
01:15:33,444 --> 01:15:34,104
That is an option.

1579
01:15:34,274 --> 01:15:36,234
That is, in fact, what's going to happen if we take no action.

1580
01:15:36,624 --> 01:15:37,174
Totally fine.

1581
01:15:37,544 --> 01:15:42,554
And then now transactions are, are, um, potentially stealable by quantum computers

1582
01:15:42,624 --> 01:15:46,383
while they've been broadcast because, we've broken the hash open and now

1583
01:15:46,393 --> 01:15:48,203
public key cryptography can be changed.

1584
01:15:48,213 --> 01:15:53,297
Like we have to move to some post quantum, um, Uh, public key encryption scheme,

1585
01:15:53,317 --> 01:15:56,676
if we really want to be, have strength, against resisting quantum computations.

1586
01:15:56,966 --> 01:16:00,016
Frankly, I think bitcoiners will be the ones to like actually promote things like

1587
01:16:00,016 --> 01:16:04,106
lattice computations or other current, like, post quantum algorithms that

1588
01:16:04,106 --> 01:16:08,683
are, Not in widespread usage, because truthfully, there's not a lot to be gained

1589
01:16:08,683 --> 01:16:11,463
from actually building quantum resistant anything today, because quantum computers

1590
01:16:11,473 --> 01:16:15,283
aren't that powerful, and no one gives a shit, credit cards have like 30 percent

1591
01:16:15,283 --> 01:16:18,843
fraud all the time anyway, so I think it's actually bitcoiners who are going

1592
01:16:18,843 --> 01:16:22,393
to solve this post quantum computing like problem, because we have the most to lose,

1593
01:16:22,783 --> 01:16:25,971
but it is something we're going to have to solve, and if you think about Thank okay,

1594
01:16:26,051 --> 01:16:28,191
again, how do we make changes in Bitcoin?

1595
01:16:28,241 --> 01:16:29,101
We're not good at it.

1596
01:16:29,101 --> 01:16:30,841
And that's probably a good thing that we're not good at it.

1597
01:16:30,841 --> 01:16:32,101
Like, these are some of the things I worry about.

1598
01:16:32,181 --> 01:16:34,411
I don't, again, I don't think this is an existential problem.

1599
01:16:34,451 --> 01:16:36,951
I think we will figure this out cause we will have to figure it out.

1600
01:16:36,971 --> 01:16:39,971
And we're good at solving problems when we have to as a community.

1601
01:16:40,171 --> 01:16:44,541
Like it sort of creates that pressure to just figure it out and get it done.

1602
01:16:44,724 --> 01:16:45,924
so those are modest worries.

1603
01:16:46,281 --> 01:16:50,161
I, it's hard for me to really think of something that is like an existential

1604
01:16:50,161 --> 01:16:53,850
risk to Bitcoin And then I don't think the community has already talked about or

1605
01:16:53,850 --> 01:16:55,340
thought about or has some kinds of plans.

1606
01:16:55,420 --> 01:16:56,670
And even if it's like, oh, the government's going to

1607
01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:57,590
fight, it's like, they're not.

1608
01:16:58,220 --> 01:17:01,040
They might try a little bit, but like, the government is just people, man.

1609
01:17:01,190 --> 01:17:03,770
They own Bitcoin, some of them, like, and more of them every day.

1610
01:17:04,180 --> 01:17:08,941
So I, I don't tend not to worry about those kinds of, Failure modes very much.

1611
01:17:09,112 --> 01:17:10,997
like to me, there's, have it.

1612
01:17:10,997 --> 01:17:13,137
It's not like, it's not like, it's like, it's like a struggle.

1613
01:17:13,187 --> 01:17:13,947
Let's put it that way.

1614
01:17:13,947 --> 01:17:17,317
Like, I, I don't, I'm not claiming that there's some like existential problem that

1615
01:17:17,317 --> 01:17:20,117
we need to worry about that like causes Bitcoin as a project not to succeed.

1616
01:17:20,147 --> 01:17:23,957
I am articulating that there will be some monstrous struggles still in front of

1617
01:17:23,957 --> 01:17:28,273
us, as a community before we're going, before we're going to, before Bitcoin

1618
01:17:28,303 --> 01:17:31,323
can be the thing that we need it to be at a global scale, et cetera, et cetera.

1619
01:17:32,173 --> 01:17:38,633
So, uh, but with the quantum computing thing, uh, that attack vector, the way

1620
01:17:38,633 --> 01:17:43,003
I see it, like in Bitcoin, at least we have 10 minutes to fix the problem, but

1621
01:17:43,003 --> 01:17:45,123
the traditional banking sector is just

1622
01:17:45,543 --> 01:17:46,393
No, they're, they're screwed.

1623
01:17:46,423 --> 01:17:46,913
They're screwed.

1624
01:17:46,953 --> 01:17:47,473
They're screwed.

1625
01:17:47,473 --> 01:17:47,548
They're screwed.

1626
01:17:47,733 --> 01:17:53,023
So, so we have, if it happens anytime soon, the world has way bigger problems

1627
01:17:53,063 --> 01:17:57,403
than Bitcoin to worry about at that point, because everything, everything is fucked.

1628
01:17:58,118 --> 01:18:00,238
well, yeah, yeah, I totally, totally agree with that, but I

1629
01:18:00,248 --> 01:18:01,378
would also put it oppositely.

1630
01:18:01,378 --> 01:18:04,938
I would say, yet, whoever has quantum computers and seeks to behave

1631
01:18:04,948 --> 01:18:06,728
adversarially will come for Bitcoin first.

1632
01:18:07,016 --> 01:18:10,700
even though other things might be easier to attack, Bitcoin is more valuable.

1633
01:18:11,989 --> 01:18:14,079
Well, not if it's not quantum resistant though.

1634
01:18:14,499 --> 01:18:20,261
So it's sort of a catch 22, because it's sort of why, like, miners can't

1635
01:18:20,271 --> 01:18:26,441
act in their own self interest, because it's like alchemy, if alchemists had

1636
01:18:26,441 --> 01:18:31,421
been successful and found a cheap way to produce no gold, which in a

1637
01:18:31,421 --> 01:18:32,891
way central bankers did, you know.

1638
01:18:32,891 --> 01:18:32,931
So, yeah.

1639
01:18:33,171 --> 01:18:37,191
They destroyed the value of gold, so the central bank has destroyed

1640
01:18:37,191 --> 01:18:38,181
the value of the fiat currencies.

1641
01:18:38,655 --> 01:18:43,135
this idea might be hard to follow, but if you can cheat the rules in

1642
01:18:43,135 --> 01:18:48,235
Bitcoin, you destroy its value, because it's not valuable anymore

1643
01:18:48,245 --> 01:18:49,575
if someone can hack it, right?

1644
01:18:50,385 --> 01:18:54,085
Then it would instantly drop to zero, so you would have to pull it off

1645
01:18:54,665 --> 01:18:56,415
without revealing that you pulled it

1646
01:18:56,575 --> 01:18:58,735
No, I think it's a little bit more complex, right, because

1647
01:18:58,735 --> 01:18:59,745
there's a timeline there.

1648
01:18:59,795 --> 01:19:03,645
Like, I think there's an attacker in the future who values Bitcoin, who

1649
01:19:03,685 --> 01:19:07,535
understands that Bitcoiners are working on solutions for post quantum computing,

1650
01:19:07,825 --> 01:19:11,265
but they've underestimated the rate of progress, and this person can steal

1651
01:19:11,265 --> 01:19:13,055
some Bitcoin, they're gonna do it.

1652
01:19:13,355 --> 01:19:17,525
And even if it causes a market crash, They might have confidence that eventually

1653
01:19:17,525 --> 01:19:21,065
Bitcoin will figure out post quantum shit or take the post quantum forks

1654
01:19:21,065 --> 01:19:24,565
that are brewing or conversations and make those real, and I can make a little

1655
01:19:24,565 --> 01:19:25,805
bit of money here in the middle, right?

1656
01:19:26,315 --> 01:19:31,215
Yeah, but what I'm saying is that they couldn't steal very much, because if they,

1657
01:19:31,345 --> 01:19:36,195
if they stole like a million coins, then, then, then everyone would abandon ship.

1658
01:19:36,335 --> 01:19:36,865
Like, this

1659
01:19:37,015 --> 01:19:37,575
pause there.

1660
01:19:38,215 --> 01:19:41,075
I in general agree, right, that they wouldn't do that, but then the question

1661
01:19:41,075 --> 01:19:43,245
to me is what about Satoshi's P2PK coins?

1662
01:19:44,145 --> 01:19:45,235
Like, they're just sitting there.

1663
01:19:45,615 --> 01:19:46,545
oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1664
01:19:46,925 --> 01:19:48,705
They would probably go for those first.

1665
01:19:48,705 --> 01:19:52,775
But, oh, so here's, here's an interesting follow up question.

1666
01:19:52,775 --> 01:19:58,630
Is there a, A game theoretical way to figure out what the, what the amount of

1667
01:19:58,670 --> 01:20:02,870
coins they could actually steal without destroying the value is, like, is there,

1668
01:20:02,890 --> 01:20:04,400
like, could they steal a hundred coins?

1669
01:20:04,790 --> 01:20:06,020
Is it 0.

1670
01:20:06,020 --> 01:20:06,320
1 coins?

1671
01:20:06,790 --> 01:20:07,930
Is it a million coins?

1672
01:20:08,590 --> 01:20:09,480
Well, it depends.

1673
01:20:09,610 --> 01:20:14,300
I guess it's all subjective and Bitcoiners would react differently to it.

1674
01:20:14,330 --> 01:20:16,020
Some, some would abandon ship.

1675
01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:18,900
Others would say, no, I still believe in Bitcoin.

1676
01:20:19,377 --> 01:20:23,023
If they target someone who won't notice if, if they, if they steal from someone

1677
01:20:23,023 --> 01:20:24,793
who won't notice for a while, then

1678
01:20:24,978 --> 01:20:29,178
No, but other people might notice, like, there are a lot of people

1679
01:20:29,188 --> 01:20:32,618
monitoring the blockchain, and if they see something odd, they may

1680
01:20:32,933 --> 01:20:35,153
Well that's why you don't steal Satoshi's keys though.

1681
01:20:35,153 --> 01:20:38,843
If you steal, if you, if you steal Satoshi's coins, right?

1682
01:20:38,993 --> 01:20:43,343
Everyone knows who those are, but if you just steal some random coin.

1683
01:20:44,136 --> 01:20:45,536
Yeah, but that's sort of my point.

1684
01:20:45,896 --> 01:20:48,146
In that case, it would have to be a small amount,

1685
01:20:48,859 --> 01:20:49,079
Well

1686
01:20:49,169 --> 01:20:50,019
the further

1687
01:20:50,059 --> 01:20:50,339
Yeah.

1688
01:20:51,055 --> 01:20:54,855
yeah, the further you get into Bitcoin's history, the smaller the amounts become.

1689
01:20:55,455 --> 01:20:56,165
Inevitably.

1690
01:20:56,730 --> 01:20:59,130
But I think, but that's, that's kind of what worries me about this whole

1691
01:20:59,130 --> 01:21:03,880
scenario is because say we as a community do nothing, eventually someone

1692
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:07,760
will have quantum computers powerful enough to steal Satoshi's P2PK coins.

1693
01:21:08,350 --> 01:21:12,230
And I don't trust that no one will do it because it would ruin the

1694
01:21:12,230 --> 01:21:13,460
value of the thing that they stole.

1695
01:21:13,460 --> 01:21:16,860
I think people like to poke buttons and break things and.

1696
01:21:17,585 --> 01:21:20,195
We need to understand as a community, like what, what are we

1697
01:21:20,195 --> 01:21:22,125
prepared to do in this situation?

1698
01:21:22,165 --> 01:21:25,685
I think the most conservative and minimal thing is do nothing, let

1699
01:21:25,685 --> 01:21:27,225
them steal the coins, let it happen.

1700
01:21:27,235 --> 01:21:27,965
We don't care.

1701
01:21:28,595 --> 01:21:33,945
Isn't the denial of the SegWit2x hard fork a proof against that?

1702
01:21:34,015 --> 01:21:39,045
That people do not break things if they stand to lose a lot of money from it?

1703
01:21:39,715 --> 01:21:42,255
Sort of, except because hard fork is a thing that the whole

1704
01:21:42,255 --> 01:21:43,935
community has to do, right?

1705
01:21:44,385 --> 01:21:48,145
Issuing one transaction to steal a bunch of UTXOs into your own

1706
01:21:48,145 --> 01:21:50,575
wallet is something one person can do if they have a quantum computer.

1707
01:21:51,065 --> 01:21:54,365
Now, maybe the argument is that no, no one person will have that quantum computer,

1708
01:21:54,365 --> 01:21:55,585
but eventually someone will, right?

1709
01:21:55,585 --> 01:21:59,105
If we change absolutely nothing, and quantum computing keeps accelerating,

1710
01:21:59,265 --> 01:22:02,275
and qubits become cheaper and cheaper, someone will eventually have that ability.

1711
01:22:02,601 --> 01:22:06,561
And that actor might not even be aware of the risk of destroying

1712
01:22:06,731 --> 01:22:07,941
the value of Bitcoin in the

1713
01:22:08,031 --> 01:22:09,761
This might not give a shit, right?

1714
01:22:09,761 --> 01:22:11,401
Like, I, who knows, right?

1715
01:22:11,431 --> 01:22:13,921
Like, and so part of me is like, I don't know what the right answer is.

1716
01:22:13,921 --> 01:22:17,901
On some level, I would like to live in a world where it was easy to do

1717
01:22:17,901 --> 01:22:22,021
something akin to, okay, look, where as of this date, you have, One year

1718
01:22:22,021 --> 01:22:25,851
or this many blocks, you have 200, 000 blocks to get rid of your P2PK outputs.

1719
01:22:25,871 --> 01:22:28,761
And as of this date, they will no longer be real outputs or like,

1720
01:22:28,761 --> 01:22:30,951
we'll have some philosophy around it, but that's, that's a change.

1721
01:22:30,961 --> 01:22:34,169
And that's, I think, I think that's a hard fork that's backwards incompatible, dah.

1722
01:22:34,170 --> 01:22:37,150
So it would be incredibly controversial to do something like that.

1723
01:22:37,340 --> 01:22:39,020
And I'm not necessarily proposing that we do that.

1724
01:22:39,020 --> 01:22:42,920
I'm just pointing out that would be one strategy to avoid this pool

1725
01:22:42,920 --> 01:22:45,710
of P2PK coins just sitting there waiting for quantum computer.

1726
01:22:46,350 --> 01:22:52,019
But at the same time, What an incredibly, hard conversation that will be, right,

1727
01:22:52,059 --> 01:22:55,519
is to tell all the Bitcoin owners of the world, Hey, you can no longer

1728
01:22:55,519 --> 01:22:58,659
use this script type that has been in existence since the very beginning.

1729
01:22:59,052 --> 01:23:02,422
you must now do this other thing, and in fact, existing coins on the chain,

1730
01:23:02,432 --> 01:23:06,862
like Satoshis, that are unlikely to move, will be dealt with somehow.

1731
01:23:06,862 --> 01:23:09,052
Those UTXOs will be dealt with in some way that I don't know.

1732
01:23:09,142 --> 01:23:11,562
Like, that's a very hard conversation to even begin to have.

1733
01:23:11,562 --> 01:23:12,732
No one wants to have that conversation.

1734
01:23:13,757 --> 01:23:17,177
I'm, I'm not very technical, but, but hear me out.

1735
01:23:17,227 --> 01:23:22,487
Like, uh, is this, is this something that could be solved by Bitcoin

1736
01:23:22,887 --> 01:23:27,417
migrating the, the source code migrating to another programming language?

1737
01:23:27,688 --> 01:23:28,078
Does that,

1738
01:23:28,123 --> 01:23:30,393
Not, not, not, not, uh, not really.

1739
01:23:30,393 --> 01:23:33,593
I think maybe what more what you're searching for is could we, could we

1740
01:23:33,831 --> 01:23:38,521
add quantum resistant encryption into Bitcoin so that all new transactions

1741
01:23:38,691 --> 01:23:40,501
are resistant to quantum computers?

1742
01:23:40,501 --> 01:23:41,501
I think that is possible.

1743
01:23:41,721 --> 01:23:43,031
It's not really a programming language question.

1744
01:23:43,041 --> 01:23:43,981
It's an algorithms question.

1745
01:23:43,981 --> 01:23:47,831
Basically, ECDSA, elliptic curve cryptography is not quantum resistant.

1746
01:23:47,841 --> 01:23:50,211
We have to replace it with something else eventually.

1747
01:23:50,801 --> 01:23:54,411
Right, and so that's very doable, I think, without soft, with just

1748
01:23:54,411 --> 01:23:57,331
soft forks and just with new code, because we're not making a claim about

1749
01:23:57,541 --> 01:23:59,791
historical UTXOs and historical scripts.

1750
01:23:59,791 --> 01:24:02,581
We're just giving you the option to get into quantum resistant stuff.

1751
01:24:02,591 --> 01:24:05,461
Like, I think that should be an easier conversation, and I think

1752
01:24:05,471 --> 01:24:06,631
it's one we'll eventually have.

1753
01:24:07,078 --> 01:24:08,288
And we actually have the tools to do that, right?

1754
01:24:08,288 --> 01:24:10,888
We have, we have segwit, so we can add little segwit versions,

1755
01:24:10,888 --> 01:24:12,388
and we can add post quantum stuff.

1756
01:24:12,408 --> 01:24:13,838
Like, that's actually going to be pretty easy.

1757
01:24:14,068 --> 01:24:16,378
The hard part is going to be, what should we do as a community?

1758
01:24:16,388 --> 01:24:21,788
What is our monetary policy towards existing UTXOs that are going

1759
01:24:21,788 --> 01:24:23,348
to be stolen if we do nothing?

1760
01:24:23,631 --> 01:24:24,491
It's just a hard question.

1761
01:24:24,850 --> 01:24:25,120
I don't know

1762
01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:25,530
It is.

1763
01:24:26,200 --> 01:24:30,880
Still, they would have to break more than just SHA 256, right?

1764
01:24:31,538 --> 01:24:33,018
think the argument is that they can't break.

1765
01:24:33,068 --> 01:24:35,733
There's no, there's not an argument right now that says that quantum

1766
01:24:35,733 --> 01:24:37,293
computers can break those algorithms.

1767
01:24:37,293 --> 01:24:38,403
Those are hashing algorithms.

1768
01:24:38,883 --> 01:24:44,163
So the idea is that like P2PKH should be safe against quantum computers because

1769
01:24:44,183 --> 01:24:47,703
they can't crack open the hashes to see the public keys that they need to break.

1770
01:24:47,983 --> 01:24:49,903
They can break the public key cryptography part, but they can't

1771
01:24:49,903 --> 01:24:50,833
break the hash part right now.

1772
01:24:50,833 --> 01:24:51,333
That's the belief.

1773
01:24:52,613 --> 01:24:56,873
And that's why Satoshi's P2PK coins are like a potential concern because

1774
01:24:56,873 --> 01:24:58,463
they aren't protected with that hash.

1775
01:24:58,792 --> 01:25:00,542
Now how many coins is that?

1776
01:25:01,172 --> 01:25:01,862
Hard to know.

1777
01:25:01,882 --> 01:25:04,252
It's estimated at near a million coins.

1778
01:25:04,561 --> 01:25:05,161
It's hard to know.

1779
01:25:05,887 --> 01:25:08,537
It's a treasure for future pirates to

1780
01:25:08,757 --> 01:25:09,807
It's just sitting there.

1781
01:25:09,877 --> 01:25:10,277
Yeah.

1782
01:25:10,597 --> 01:25:15,007
And part of me almost thinks that like right now the market's understood.

1783
01:25:15,287 --> 01:25:19,607
Business use case for quantum computing is drug discovery, more or less, like

1784
01:25:19,607 --> 01:25:22,647
the idea is like, we often think of like quantum computing as, oh, it solves the

1785
01:25:22,647 --> 01:25:26,767
traveling salesman problem, he visits all the stores at once, or some metaphor

1786
01:25:26,767 --> 01:25:30,037
that people have in their minds for how it works, but I think a lot of people

1787
01:25:30,037 --> 01:25:33,247
who are in the industry don't think of quantum computing's chief application

1788
01:25:33,247 --> 01:25:36,457
as being those kinds of arbitrary optimization problems, they think of

1789
01:25:36,457 --> 01:25:39,857
it as the chief purpose of quantum computing will be to simulate quantum

1790
01:25:39,857 --> 01:25:41,907
systems, which is to say molecules.

1791
01:25:42,262 --> 01:25:44,082
Uh, and why do you want to simulate molecules?

1792
01:25:44,092 --> 01:25:46,602
Because you're doing material science where you're doing drug discovery.

1793
01:25:46,872 --> 01:25:49,982
And so like, that's the understanding that like, this is where money will

1794
01:25:49,982 --> 01:25:53,092
come from, and like the funding for quantum computing comes from people who

1795
01:25:53,102 --> 01:25:54,792
want to use it to solve those problems.

1796
01:25:55,182 --> 01:25:56,072
But at some point...

1797
01:25:56,412 --> 01:25:58,262
Like, these curves cross, right?

1798
01:25:58,292 --> 01:26:02,392
And the value of a million bitcoins sitting in a P2PK address, set

1799
01:26:02,392 --> 01:26:06,592
of addresses is larger than the, than the revenue you would get by

1800
01:26:06,602 --> 01:26:09,142
new drugs or whatever it is that you would seek to bring to market.

1801
01:26:10,022 --> 01:26:13,062
This is just a terrifying, like, mix of things for me, right?

1802
01:26:13,072 --> 01:26:13,082
I

1803
01:26:13,247 --> 01:26:19,272
So you're saying that at some point, uh, Quantum computing and the idea

1804
01:26:19,272 --> 01:26:24,773
that it even has a chance of, of, hacking those million, supposed million

1805
01:26:24,773 --> 01:26:30,940
coins, that idea alone will be enough to fund quantum computing research?

1806
01:26:31,079 --> 01:26:31,559
don't know.

1807
01:26:31,579 --> 01:26:33,889
It really depends on the rates of all these curves, but like, I

1808
01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:34,920
Yeah, but given, given,

1809
01:26:35,249 --> 01:26:35,679
regime, yes.

1810
01:26:35,960 --> 01:26:37,560
given a high enough Bitcoin price,

1811
01:26:37,689 --> 01:26:42,079
yes, like, there's, if progress on drug discovery and other things is slower

1812
01:26:42,079 --> 01:26:46,489
than we expect, and Bitcoin's price rises higher than we expect, and the Bitcoin

1813
01:26:46,489 --> 01:26:51,159
community takes no actions to protect existing P2PK coins, that's a perfect

1814
01:26:51,159 --> 01:26:55,590
storm for someone to realize, wait a minute, like, if I spend a billion dollars

1815
01:26:55,590 --> 01:27:00,264
on Bitcoin, Or $10 billion or even a hundred billion dollars to figure out how

1816
01:27:00,269 --> 01:27:02,154
to build a quantum computer of that scale.

1817
01:27:02,184 --> 01:27:04,434
I can steal $3 trillion in Bitcoin.

1818
01:27:04,674 --> 01:27:07,464
Now, maybe that tanks the network and that's why they don't do it, but

1819
01:27:07,464 --> 01:27:09,474
eventually, like it's just curves, right?

1820
01:27:09,474 --> 01:27:11,964
Eventually that cost will get lower and lower and Bitcoin

1821
01:27:11,969 --> 01:27:12,954
keep getting higher and higher.

1822
01:27:13,344 --> 01:27:16,332
So the community of Bitcoiners, we're gonna have to confront

1823
01:27:16,332 --> 01:27:18,262
this issue at some point and decide what we wanna do about it.

1824
01:27:19,367 --> 01:27:22,927
I mean, there's so much to unpack here because, like, to a certain

1825
01:27:22,927 --> 01:27:28,957
extent, like, as we move further into hyperbitcoinization, I think consumerism

1826
01:27:29,007 --> 01:27:34,617
is, On its way out, like, uh, you know, Bitcoiners have a lower time preference or

1827
01:27:34,657 --> 01:27:39,147
they adopt a lower time preference because they see that delayed gratification is

1828
01:27:39,147 --> 01:27:41,857
better because Bitcoin is deflationary.

1829
01:27:41,887 --> 01:27:43,847
So it goes up in purchasing power over time.

1830
01:27:43,867 --> 01:27:47,017
So you're not incentivized to spend, spend and spend all the time.

1831
01:27:47,617 --> 01:27:51,667
And if I extrapolate that thought vector far enough into the future,

1832
01:27:52,432 --> 01:27:57,022
Uh, my conclusion is that we will prioritize quality over quantity so

1833
01:27:57,022 --> 01:28:01,452
much so that this whole consumerist culture is going away and we're getting

1834
01:28:01,452 --> 01:28:05,632
into a state where people only make really, really sound investments.

1835
01:28:06,092 --> 01:28:09,202
They only buy really, things that they really, really need.

1836
01:28:09,662 --> 01:28:13,872
And we might even get to a state where, you know, materialism isn't

1837
01:28:13,872 --> 01:28:15,782
such a big thing in the world anymore.

1838
01:28:15,982 --> 01:28:19,222
I mean, people, of course, are still going to crave stuff.

1839
01:28:19,322 --> 01:28:24,412
But not if they know the opportunity cost of missing out on the increased

1840
01:28:24,422 --> 01:28:30,992
purchasing power of Bitcoin, which will like 10x every decade into forever.

1841
01:28:31,772 --> 01:28:35,052
Say if that thesis is true, and if it plays out over a couple of hundred

1842
01:28:35,062 --> 01:28:39,412
years that it actually does that, then people will slowly but surely learn.

1843
01:28:40,082 --> 01:28:41,262
And if that is the case.

1844
01:28:42,112 --> 01:28:48,162
Then having a hundred billion dollars in Bitcoin or having three trillion makes

1845
01:28:48,162 --> 01:28:52,156
very little difference, like, because you're not going to use them anyway, even

1846
01:28:52,156 --> 01:28:57,866
a fraction of a Bitcoin is enough to last for you and your descendants forever.

1847
01:28:58,196 --> 01:29:02,481
So, so like, these are the, the real, when I really go bonkers

1848
01:29:02,481 --> 01:29:03,631
with the philosophy thing.

1849
01:29:04,131 --> 01:29:08,710
Uh, these are the points I end up with, like, everyone says they didn't,

1850
01:29:08,850 --> 01:29:10,170
they don't have enough bitcoins.

1851
01:29:10,804 --> 01:29:13,684
But the opposite is true, everyone has enough bitcoins, even no

1852
01:29:13,684 --> 01:29:17,614
coiners have enough bitcoin given a long enough time frame, you know.

1853
01:29:18,224 --> 01:29:22,244
Uh, because as long as they have something to sell, at some point.

1854
01:29:22,889 --> 01:29:24,179
They have generational wealth.

1855
01:29:24,219 --> 01:29:27,029
If you have Satoshis, you have generational wealth.

1856
01:29:27,089 --> 01:29:29,129
There are not enough Satoshis around.

1857
01:29:29,549 --> 01:29:30,369
Like, uh...

1858
01:29:30,429 --> 01:29:32,089
Kudu, buddy, I'd love to believe in that.

1859
01:29:32,219 --> 01:29:34,139
I'd love to believe in that story you just told me.

1860
01:29:34,259 --> 01:29:34,919
I really would.

1861
01:29:35,399 --> 01:29:37,999
But that does not jive with my understanding of human beings.

1862
01:29:38,209 --> 01:29:41,929
I think if Bitcoin, if Bitcoin becomes like a global everything and it is

1863
01:29:41,929 --> 01:29:45,879
the money of the world or whatever, whatever, whatever, maybe there

1864
01:29:45,879 --> 01:29:47,229
will be a decrease in consumerism.

1865
01:29:47,229 --> 01:29:48,459
I would like to see that.

1866
01:29:49,054 --> 01:29:51,364
But I think people are, people are just people and there's going to be

1867
01:29:51,364 --> 01:29:55,244
people, there's going to be socialists and communists and fascists and people

1868
01:29:55,244 --> 01:30:00,204
of all kinds who use Bitcoin every day and never think at all about how

1869
01:30:00,244 --> 01:30:03,414
maybe their day to day behaviors is discordant with the principles that

1870
01:30:03,414 --> 01:30:04,614
underlie the money that they use.

1871
01:30:04,634 --> 01:30:07,324
I think there's absolutely no connection between those things for most people.

1872
01:30:07,544 --> 01:30:10,994
I think the founders and the early members of the community of Bitcoin, like people

1873
01:30:11,004 --> 01:30:14,704
who are on this call, we have a very different attitude and relationship.

1874
01:30:14,959 --> 01:30:19,509
To this system of things, then an average person 50 years from now is going to

1875
01:30:19,509 --> 01:30:22,069
feel like, like you get reversion to the mean, you just get everything.

1876
01:30:22,229 --> 01:30:25,339
And I think even if, even if there were meaningful trends towards the

1877
01:30:25,339 --> 01:30:28,789
reduction in consumerism or whatever else it is, like this particular

1878
01:30:28,789 --> 01:30:33,309
quantum computing P2PK thing that I'm talking about, it's sort of like, it

1879
01:30:33,309 --> 01:30:35,379
just takes one person to fuck this up.

1880
01:30:35,748 --> 01:30:39,451
even if almost all of us behave responsibly and would never do this thing

1881
01:30:39,481 --> 01:30:41,451
to harm the rest of us, one of us might.

1882
01:30:41,734 --> 01:30:44,291
And so, Bitcoiners are not about trust, right?

1883
01:30:44,291 --> 01:30:47,081
We don't want to trust that none of us will engage in this bad activity.

1884
01:30:47,571 --> 01:30:49,831
We want to do the thing that you opened with, which is we want to

1885
01:30:49,831 --> 01:30:53,091
make it so incredibly expensive for you to attempt to do that, that you

1886
01:30:53,091 --> 01:30:55,351
just won't, and you'd rather put that energy into something else.

1887
01:30:56,301 --> 01:30:58,461
Touché, touché, absolute

1888
01:30:58,751 --> 01:31:00,231
But I don't know how to affect that.

1889
01:31:00,571 --> 01:31:01,351
I have no idea.

1890
01:31:01,451 --> 01:31:03,781
I'm, I'm just a guy being like, guys, this is a problem.

1891
01:31:03,801 --> 01:31:06,551
Eventually one day we should, we should be thinking about it, but I'm not,

1892
01:31:06,841 --> 01:31:09,741
I'm not advocating any actual actions because I don't know what's best.

1893
01:31:10,031 --> 01:31:11,531
And also I'm terrible at organizing.

1894
01:31:11,891 --> 01:31:14,481
So I have no idea how to convince the Bitcoin community of anything.

1895
01:31:14,531 --> 01:31:18,331
And I'm not even trying to, I'm just maybe trying to say like, one day, this

1896
01:31:18,331 --> 01:31:21,071
thing is going to be a decision that we're going to have to come and make.

1897
01:31:21,421 --> 01:31:21,831
And

1898
01:31:22,441 --> 01:31:23,531
touché, and this is a very good point.

1899
01:31:24,153 --> 01:31:25,423
I don't know what the decision should be.

1900
01:31:25,691 --> 01:31:28,851
No, but raising awareness is, you know, crucial.

1901
01:31:29,021 --> 01:31:32,051
If people are not aware of the problem, they can't fix the problem.

1902
01:31:32,081 --> 01:31:32,541
So like,

1903
01:31:33,071 --> 01:31:37,891
I think there's a perversely, uh, you know, again, Bitcoiners like to pretend

1904
01:31:37,891 --> 01:31:40,891
that we are some sort of, like, holier than thou, better than other tribes.

1905
01:31:40,891 --> 01:31:43,961
But truthfully, a lot of us are afraid to talk about this because

1906
01:31:44,031 --> 01:31:48,141
it requires some kind of change somewhere or it requires being okay

1907
01:31:48,141 --> 01:31:52,631
with near 10 percent of the supply just disappearing or whatever at some point.

1908
01:31:53,151 --> 01:31:55,071
which which in a way is fine.

1909
01:31:56,191 --> 01:31:59,711
Like on a long enough timeframe, it is an acceptable option.

1910
01:32:00,401 --> 01:32:02,851
maybe, maybe, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, like, because

1911
01:32:02,851 --> 01:32:03,851
at that point, what do you get?

1912
01:32:03,851 --> 01:32:07,431
You get probably, if it were, if that were the choice, I think the outcome

1913
01:32:07,431 --> 01:32:11,921
is eventually an incredibly powerful organization, whichever is the one

1914
01:32:11,921 --> 01:32:15,201
that has the world's largest quantum computing resources, now becomes the

1915
01:32:15,201 --> 01:32:18,211
world's wealthiest entity because they stole 10 percent of the world's money.

1916
01:32:18,751 --> 01:32:19,891
Yes, but...

1917
01:32:20,261 --> 01:32:24,861
That entity has only one way of getting something out of actual value for that

1918
01:32:24,991 --> 01:32:28,981
stack of money, because Bitcoin is not fiat, so the only way that they

1919
01:32:28,981 --> 01:32:31,651
can leverage that is by spending the

1920
01:32:31,651 --> 01:32:32,111
Bitcoin.

1921
01:32:32,601 --> 01:32:36,321
They can't, they can't fuck with people like you can with fiat.

1922
01:32:36,781 --> 01:32:39,081
And so, so maybe, maybe it's acceptable, right?

1923
01:32:39,121 --> 01:32:40,521
Like, maybe that's completely acceptable.

1924
01:32:40,681 --> 01:32:43,051
And I, it's not, it's, I'm not trying to decide the question.

1925
01:32:43,081 --> 01:32:44,111
I'm just trying to ask it.

1926
01:32:44,533 --> 01:32:45,243
Who knows, man?

1927
01:32:45,503 --> 01:32:45,973
Who knows?

1928
01:32:46,688 --> 01:32:50,858
I love to think about these things, it's fantastic, fantastic stuff.

1929
01:32:51,338 --> 01:32:55,662
And, yeah, but the thing is, the thing I Getting into this, uh, that which

1930
01:32:55,662 --> 01:33:00,512
you can do without your own, uh, uh, type of mindset is that I've seen it in

1931
01:33:00,522 --> 01:33:04,705
Bitcoin, like people discover Bitcoin for the, the gains and the money.

1932
01:33:04,765 --> 01:33:08,515
And they're, they, they, they stay for the money, like, and they stay

1933
01:33:08,515 --> 01:33:10,445
for, for philosophical reasons.

1934
01:33:10,455 --> 01:33:15,205
Sooner or later, when you really, I mean, tumble down the rabbit

1935
01:33:15,205 --> 01:33:16,515
hole, that's the inevitable.

1936
01:33:16,900 --> 01:33:22,000
Path you take because you, you realize all these other things about life and that

1937
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:24,310
you don't need a ton of shit and stuff.

1938
01:33:24,465 --> 01:33:28,473
and yeah, I guess what, what you said, like the hard part is to, is to see

1939
01:33:28,473 --> 01:33:33,023
if it's this applicable to everyone, or is it just to like really, really

1940
01:33:33,023 --> 01:33:36,783
curious people who are willing to, to give up on their own beliefs,

1941
01:33:36,858 --> 01:33:40,568
even just 99 percent of us, maybe 99 percent of us experience that

1942
01:33:40,568 --> 01:33:42,508
change long term as a species.

1943
01:33:43,033 --> 01:33:46,873
Yeah, there's still that one asshole that might steal the coins.

1944
01:33:46,923 --> 01:33:51,443
It reminds me of, uh, have you seen a Gary Larson cartoon?

1945
01:33:51,553 --> 01:33:54,183
Uh, it's just a picture, four frames.

1946
01:33:54,533 --> 01:33:58,123
It says the four personality types, and there's a glass

1947
01:33:58,123 --> 01:33:59,553
of water in front of the guy.

1948
01:33:59,733 --> 01:34:02,603
Uh, so the, you know, those Gary Larson fat guys.

1949
01:34:03,551 --> 01:34:05,191
so there's a, a glass of water.

1950
01:34:05,191 --> 01:34:08,581
It's filled, half of the, uh, the glass is, it's filled.

1951
01:34:09,626 --> 01:34:10,276
50%.

1952
01:34:10,736 --> 01:34:13,996
So the first personality type says the glass is half full.

1953
01:34:14,396 --> 01:34:17,646
The second personality type says the glass is half empty.

1954
01:34:18,236 --> 01:34:22,426
The third personality type says the glass is half full, half empty, I

1955
01:34:22,426 --> 01:34:24,566
don't really know, can't decide.

1956
01:34:25,036 --> 01:34:28,266
And the fourth personality type, this would be the guy that would

1957
01:34:28,286 --> 01:34:32,436
steal the million bitcoins, says, hey, I ordered a cheeseburger.

1958
01:34:32,666 --> 01:34:33,116
Mm hmm.

1959
01:34:34,226 --> 01:34:38,496
And there's always the, hey, I ordered a cheeseburger personality type

1960
01:34:38,506 --> 01:34:39,826
that just want to destroy things.

1961
01:34:39,836 --> 01:34:41,981
So that's That's unfortunate, I guess.

1962
01:34:42,644 --> 01:34:44,474
The show is also sponsored by Zellox.

1963
01:34:44,644 --> 01:34:46,704
That's X E L L O X.

1964
01:34:47,164 --> 01:34:50,194
They've developed the excellent Yoki's Seed Plate Kit.

1965
01:34:50,344 --> 01:34:53,344
The solution against everything life throws at you, including

1966
01:34:53,344 --> 01:34:55,914
fire, water, corrosion, and pests.

1967
01:34:56,564 --> 01:35:00,284
The Yoki's package includes three stainless steel plates and a pen sized

1968
01:35:00,284 --> 01:35:03,844
electric engraver so you can write your seed on metal just like writing on paper.

1969
01:35:04,289 --> 01:35:06,989
And they have big plans, they're developing a next gen hardware

1970
01:35:06,989 --> 01:35:10,549
wallet too, but for now, you can order the YoKeys to safeguard your

1971
01:35:10,549 --> 01:35:12,339
keys in a safe and convenient way.

1972
01:35:12,949 --> 01:35:14,599
Check out Zellox at zellox.

1973
01:35:14,649 --> 01:35:18,469
io, that's X E L L O X dot I O.

1974
01:35:19,089 --> 01:35:21,869
And finally, we're also sponsored by BitcoinBook.

1975
01:35:21,889 --> 01:35:25,179
shop, your source for bitcoin books in over a dozen languages

1976
01:35:25,199 --> 01:35:26,749
including all of Knut's books.

1977
01:35:27,429 --> 01:35:30,579
Their mission is to translate great bitcoin and freedom oriented books

1978
01:35:30,689 --> 01:35:32,549
into as many languages as possible.

1979
01:35:32,869 --> 01:35:36,579
While also publishing original titles to get even more knowledge out there.

1980
01:35:37,219 --> 01:35:40,609
Use code footprint for 10 percent off your purchases at bitcoinbook.

1981
01:35:41,419 --> 01:35:41,879
shop.

1982
01:35:42,684 --> 01:35:46,834
Drew, before we, yeah, uh, sorry for stealing the show there for a while.

1983
01:35:46,904 --> 01:35:52,464
Uh, any last, last words, uh, before we, uh, end this, uh, show?

1984
01:35:52,989 --> 01:35:54,419
For me, no, this has been awesome.

1985
01:35:54,419 --> 01:35:57,489
Thanks for just a wide ranging, you know, fun conversation.

1986
01:35:57,789 --> 01:35:59,909
Um, it's early, it's a little, it's in the morning for me, so

1987
01:35:59,909 --> 01:36:01,739
this is a great way to open my day.

1988
01:36:01,789 --> 01:36:04,499
I'm just going to be buzzing with all sorts of fun ideas while I go

1989
01:36:04,499 --> 01:36:05,399
through the rest of my meetings.

1990
01:36:06,294 --> 01:36:07,334
Oh, lovely to hear.

1991
01:36:07,334 --> 01:36:10,574
I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a long walk after this and, uh, my brain

1992
01:36:10,574 --> 01:36:12,094
is full with new ideas as well.

1993
01:36:12,094 --> 01:36:16,444
I love getting into these, you know, nerdy philosophical stuff.

1994
01:36:16,601 --> 01:36:18,628
don't know for me, it's heating up right now.

1995
01:36:19,591 --> 01:36:23,181
uh, can, can, uh, can you tell our, uh, our listeners and viewers where to

1996
01:36:23,231 --> 01:36:25,691
find you and follow what you're doing?

1997
01:36:26,799 --> 01:36:27,559
Yeah, absolutely.

1998
01:36:27,849 --> 01:36:30,629
So I work at Unchained and you can check our business out at unchained.

1999
01:36:30,629 --> 01:36:30,939
com.

2000
01:36:30,939 --> 01:36:34,249
Come learn about better collaborative custody, security, and financial services.

2001
01:36:34,549 --> 01:36:36,339
I blog on an Unchained's blog.

2002
01:36:36,339 --> 01:36:37,199
So that's unchained.

2003
01:36:37,199 --> 01:36:38,119
com slash blog.

2004
01:36:38,129 --> 01:36:42,349
You can find a lot of my articles about Bitcoin, astronomy, and space and these

2005
01:36:42,349 --> 01:36:43,819
market ideas kind of sitting there.

2006
01:36:43,969 --> 01:36:47,999
Um, and then I do tweet, um, Drew, uh, just my first and last

2007
01:36:47,999 --> 01:36:49,679
name, Drew Fansel, um, at Twitter.

2008
01:36:50,139 --> 01:36:51,799
I'm doing that less and less these days.

2009
01:36:52,129 --> 01:36:53,249
I'm getting less value out of Twitter.

2010
01:36:53,249 --> 01:36:55,509
I can't decide if it's me or if it's the network, but.

2011
01:36:55,509 --> 01:36:55,739
Yeah.

2012
01:36:56,289 --> 01:36:57,169
Um, I am there.

2013
01:36:57,521 --> 01:36:58,164
Fantastic.

2014
01:36:58,254 --> 01:37:00,884
Thank you so much for joining us on the Freedom Footprint show.

2015
01:37:01,573 --> 01:37:02,323
Thank you, Drew.

2016
01:37:02,483 --> 01:37:04,173
Uh, have a great day.

2017
01:37:04,813 --> 01:37:05,493
See you next time.

2018
01:37:06,239 --> 01:37:08,199
So what did you think of that episode with Dhruv?

2019
01:37:08,679 --> 01:37:11,409
He has some really interesting thoughts about the future of Bitcoin.

2020
01:37:11,699 --> 01:37:12,809
What was your favorite moment?

2021
01:37:12,979 --> 01:37:13,599
Let us know.

2022
01:37:14,029 --> 01:37:17,019
You can send us a boostergram on Fountain, leave us a comment on YouTube,

2023
01:37:17,029 --> 01:37:19,089
or get in touch on Nostr or Twitter.

2024
01:37:19,709 --> 01:37:21,849
If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode

2025
01:37:21,849 --> 01:37:22,989
and subscribe to the channel.

2026
01:37:23,369 --> 01:37:26,619
Our show's sponsors are Wasabi Wallet, Orange Pill Lab, The

2027
01:37:26,619 --> 01:37:28,949
Bitcoin Way, Zelox, and BitcoinBook.

2028
01:37:29,439 --> 01:37:29,809
shop.

2029
01:37:30,379 --> 01:37:31,979
Check out their details in the description.

2030
01:37:32,819 --> 01:37:36,519
That's all for now, see you next time, and thanks for listening.