Bitcoin Core From the Inside | Jon Atack | BIS #195

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Welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

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Today, I am speaking to one of my heroes, John Attack,

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a Bitcoin core developer who I wouldn't be here without him.

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So, hello, John.

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Hey, how you doing?

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So, instead of doing the regular letting John tell the world who he is,

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I'm going to give you a story about who I am,

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And it's going to lead in nicely to this conversation here.

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So I started studying Bitcoin in 2016, where I took an online course at the University of Nicosia.

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And Andreas Antonopoulos was one of the teachers.

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And then I started writing about it on Medium in 2017.

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One of the articles about how to take control over your private keys when the whole Bitcoin

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cash hard fork happened went sort of semi-viral.

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So I kept on writing and I compiled these articles into a book.

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And then that was the only book that I had to my name.

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And I wasn't very happy with it.

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So in late 2018, I figured I should write a proper book about Bitcoin.

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And I promised myself to write a page a day for the entirety of 2019 as a New Year's resolution, right?

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And as with all New Year's resolutions, you break them after a while.

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And I broke mine after 106 days.

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And what came out of that was a book called Sovereignty Through Mathematics.

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It's my first proper Bitcoin book.

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It looks like this, or it looked like this, rather.

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Nowadays, it's been slightly re-edited and redesigned.

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It looks like this.

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And I published it in June, or I think in June, or May or June, and nobody gave a crap.

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No one read the book.

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Nothing happened with it.

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I published the first chapter on Medium, I believe.

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And there, John happened to find that chapter, and he really liked it, but he thought my writing was kind of crap.

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And John is a multilingualist who speaks like seven languages fluently and is very good with grammar and stuff.

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And the AI wasn't a thing back then.

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It's also a thing to know.

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Grammarly wasn't invented yet and so on.

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So John started helping me rewrite the book to make it better.

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And he also had a lot of technical knowledge and expertise and could point out where I was wrong and just make the whole thing a whole lot better.

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and after that i took 50 books um 50 of these paperbacks in my uh i brought them in my hand

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luggage to baltic honey badger in riga uh the og conference and uh i i sold 25 of them for

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cash on chain and lightning payments and i gave the other 25 away to bitcoiners that i liked

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and after that the book sort of started to take off and it got a life of its own and i got a lot

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of new contacts and a lot of good things happened uh eventually uh michael saylor put it on his

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hope.com website when uh when he got into onto the scene i i got a very surprising dm from saylor

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saying that he read the book and really liked it and that would not have happened hadn't it been for

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John Attacks. So a deep warm welcome to this show, John. I have been wanting to tell this story

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since 2019 because you haven't been properly given proper attention to all the work you put

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into this book. So from the bottom of my heart, thank you for everything you did there.

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Yeah, seven years later.

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Yeah, exactly. And the story doesn't end there, though. I'm going to babble on for a bit longer

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here because we had conversations from, I believe, from May to August in 2019. That's when we worked

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on the book. And you devoted quite a bit of time to it and really did the work. But then all of a

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sudden, at one of the very last chapters, I think the very last chapter, actually, you suddenly

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pulled out and you said some things that were sort of surprising to me. And I'm going to read

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from a DM here. This is John talking. While I understand very well the ideas you express in it

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and can relate to them as someone who is also on the spectrum, it is too unnuanced,

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too unbalanced, and too unpolitically correct to risk putting my name to it, particularly for any

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potential open source sponsors in San Francisco and New York City. This is the sort of content

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that has nothing to do with my work on Bitcoin and could be damaging in the same way it was for

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James Damore. Do you remember? I hope people remember James Damore. He was the whistleblower

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about the DEY stuff in Google, right? If I remember correctly. So what happened there?

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Where were you and what led up to you pulling out and not wanting your name on my book?

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So I guess that is an interesting segue into our discussion.

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I think that was, you said, in August 2019.

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So I had been trying to learn to work on Bitcoin Core and contribute to Bitcoin Core starting in February of that year.

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and we can backtrack to that and discuss how that actually went down

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and what happened during that time

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because it was a very interesting time of change.

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But I had come back from spending two and a half weeks in the month of June

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in New York City in the offices of Chain Code Labs

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and I realized that it was probably better for me

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as I was at that time non-funded and working more or less full-time for free

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trying to contribute to Bitcoin for free

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and now that it was without any sort of support of any kind.

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And I was no longer working in my previous role

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of freelance software engineer,

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a very well-paid one at the time before.

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And so I was concerned about my ability to get funding.

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And at the time, pretty much my only task to get funding

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at that point where it was clear

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that I was not going to be funded by Chaincore Labs,

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my only other real option

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was the newly announced creation of Square Crypto.

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by Jack Dorsey,

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led by Miles Suter,

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who I did recommend to Miles

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that he select Steve Lee

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as the first manager of the new initiative.

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And that is, in fact,

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it could be just a coincidence,

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but in fact, Steve Lee was the first hire.

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But my only real chance to have funding at that time,

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and there were very few other funding organizations,

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was really to convince Steve Lee.

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And so I needed to keep my profile

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as controversial as possible

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at a time when there was a strong push

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for other types of profiles and identities

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than mine for developers.

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And we can get to that later if we need to.

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I don't hear you, Knut.

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Yes, I got a tweet here from Matt Corallo

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back in April 2018,

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where he says,

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it's long since time the Bitcoin community

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spent a ton more effort on recruiting

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and ensuring underrepresented groups,

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including women and especially folks with a different background,

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feel welcome in the community.

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So I think this is sort of a start of the DEY culture

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coming into Bitcoin Core, right?

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I think I missed that tweet in 2018,

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but I did see the same person watch a series of tweet storms

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And in May of 2019, about three months after I had been trying to more or less full-time become a Bitcoin Core contributor, that was my one goal.

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And so it was very clear to me which way the wind was blowing and even the way the process with ChainCore Labs took place.

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I had been

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planning for years

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to contribute to Bitcoin Core

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since maybe 2016

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when around

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2015 or 2016, I don't recall exactly

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Vladimir Vanderland

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then a long time

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mid-maintainer of Bitcoin Core

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began to follow me on Twitter

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and to my surprise

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and so I began to follow

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Vladimir's work on Bitcoin Core

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and I very much liked the kind of leadership

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style that I saw. To my mind, that was the best leadership of an open source project that I had

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seen. And I had spent considerable time, a number of years working on open source in other areas.

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And I wasn't pleased with the leadership style. And so Lighting Your Style appealed to me

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immensely and basically inspired me to consider Bitcoin Core as my next path in life. And at the

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Same time, my work environment, I was doing a lot of ass-saving, high-profile,

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saving missions for large multinationals in Europe

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when they would get caught with a bad choice of software team

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to implement something key and critical for them.

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And so they would call a very small number of people.

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I was on that list of the sort of top little elite in France where I was

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to go and fix things for them and save them against time and against space.

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and the cost would usually be rather a bit higher than with the Indian and Ukrainian

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and wherever subcontractors they had been working with before that caught them in the hot water.

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And so that was getting a bit, well, a bit woke.

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And woke isn't really my thing.

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And I thought both at the same time, I had been saving in Bitcoin for years

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and believing in Bitcoin and Bitcoin spoke to me.

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And I felt like the cypherpunk ideals of Bitcoin meant that maybe I would be moving towards a team that would be grizzled, gray-bearded sea hackers.

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And I thought this was perhaps the place where it's still going to be a bit safe from the encroachment of the...

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I don't like to use the word woke or even DEI, but there was critical race theory.

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There was all these radical left theories that I had glimpsed during my university days.

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even way before and they terrified me to be honest i never thought they would go anywhere

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but they did this totally you know as we all know now in in took over terrain in the academic circles

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and institutional circles and then it sort of exploded during the mid-2010s uh more or less

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and and that's what i was fleeing and i was thinking okay bitcoin seems to be a place where

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i can maybe avoid this nonsense and that turned out to be wrong because just as i just as i started

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working really full time and stopped doing my previous work to dedicate myself to Bitcoin Core,

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it came to Bitcoin Core as well. Yeah. And so the people funding Bitcoin Core developers at the

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time, the two companies that come up, Brink and Chaincode Labs, right? Brink did not exist yet.

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Brink did not exist. So it's Chaincode Labs first. Brink came about two years later.

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Yeah, yeah, I'm getting it wrong here. But Chaincode Labs is a private company, right?

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I believe the two founders of Chaincode Labs, they ran a high-frequency trading firm, I believe, called Hudson River Trading or something similar.

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and that allowed them i believe to have the means to have a to dedicate part of their very lovely

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offices in this in a new york skyscraper um to improving bitcoin and for years both to us and um

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and uh marcos i forgot his first name we're working on bitcoin as software engineers as well um

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Alex Marcos

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yeah

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I mean around the same time

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here as Corallo's tweet in

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2018 Adam Jonas

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comes to the scene who is a

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guy

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that was taught at a school

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called the Flatiron School

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in New York

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a coding boot camp

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that

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was started in

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2012 I believe

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yeah very iconic building in new york the thing is so i'm not sure but at the time jonas he prefers

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to be called jonas um and not adam jonas was um i believe relatively new to chenco labs he came

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just before that residency john newberry um i believe began began working at chenco at around

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2017.

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And so in 2018

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or late 2018, perhaps to very

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early 2019, or perhaps earlier,

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John was just hired.

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But, you know, John was very,

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very, very active. He had a lot of energy.

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He was creating a lot of initiatives.

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Not only was he very prolific

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as a contributor

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to Bitcoin Core,

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he also

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created the residency.

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He created Bitcoin Optech,

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which was the newsletter, as well as

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the enterprise outreach for getting them to move to tap using tapper and understanding tapper he

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later created the bitcoin core pr review club in early 2019 as well which i co with him for the first two years and then he later created Brink with Jonas So John Lumberry created the Bitcoin Core Review Club created a co Bitcoin

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Optic, co-created what was the main name attached to Brink in 2021, as well as I think the person

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behind the residency idea at Chaincode.

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And the 2019 summer residency was very ambitious.

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They were selecting about a dozen people to spend three months in Manhattan, fully housed, all costs covered, as well as receiving, I think, around $8,500 per month to work, basically to dedicate themselves to Bitcoin for three months.

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It was very ambitious and very well funded.

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And it only ever happened once.

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Yeah.

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The reason I mentioned this school that he came from is that they were very into the DEY thing.

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on their website, there's explicit race and gender-gated fellowships,

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BLM era DEI task force.

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I mean, New York City, academia, what do you want?

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Yeah, yeah.

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No, no, but just to mention that this is, I mean, it was in full bloom back then, right?

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They had Feelings Friday.

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What is a Feelings Friday?

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We had Freeling.

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he must have taken that with him from there then yes he did so so what what is a feelings friday

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i mean i think it was just where people were were encouraged to become vulnerable and

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and expressed what they were happy and not maybe not so happy i don't remember

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exactly it was sort of a circle we all went around i think it made people both feel good

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and maybe it was a form of bonding,

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but it was also vulnerability and sharing.

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I wasn't entirely comfortable with it

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because, well, I don't know.

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It's just...

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It's not like a bro kind of thing, definitely.

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Not that I'm a bro kind of person either,

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but it's just, I don't know.

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I don't know how...

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How do you behave in a situation like that?

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I mean, as someone who's maybe a tiny bit on the spectrum,

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I wasn't the most comfortable I could be.

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No, and I imagine a lot of developers to be sort of more introverted than extroverted and maybe not.

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Yeah, I mean, personally, I'm only happy working alone.

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I can't get things done well working in an office with a bunch of people around me.

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That probably was how most Bitcoin Core developers were.

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And that is no longer the kind of Bitcoin Core developers we have today, perhaps, because most of them are now in offices.

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00:16:33,180 --> 00:16:41,800
So either they're all miserable as I would be if I was in office, or maybe they actually like it, or could be a bunch of nuances in between.

235
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,460
But that has completely changed.

236
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:46,620
But back to Change Code.

237
00:16:46,620 --> 00:16:53,720
So I'm hesitant to discuss on Newberry too much because I owe him a lot of gratitude in a way.

238
00:16:53,720 --> 00:17:07,980
Because Adam Jonas, my first contact with Jonas was an interview for the residency where he basically told me in the first three or five minutes that I would not be going further in the selections.

239
00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:16,060
This was in early March 2019 because they were looking for long-term contributor material and I didn't fit the bill.

240
00:17:16,580 --> 00:17:20,880
What I did not realize at the time was how I did not fit the bill.

241
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:36,800
And I do believe, based on what I saw afterwards, that they were looking for certainly younger, less, perhaps less independent, more malleable, moldable, maybe more compliant or willing to be in an office.

242
00:17:37,220 --> 00:17:42,720
I was an experienced, independent, mature adult, you know, and I had responsibilities.

243
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:43,660
I had mortgages.

244
00:17:44,020 --> 00:17:45,380
I had things to pay for.

245
00:17:46,020 --> 00:17:48,420
And so I didn't fit the bill.

246
00:17:48,420 --> 00:17:56,160
And I believe now that ultimately we're looking for something, they had a specific mission in mind.

247
00:17:56,340 --> 00:18:13,000
To put it gently, I believe that their idea was that Bitcoin Core should professionalize and become a bit more like Google and corporatize and offices and professional people who otherwise would have gone to Google was sort of the idea, I think.

248
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,720
and I think there was a more specific idea as well

249
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,840
in the minds of people like John

250
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:20,860
who created the residency

251
00:18:20,860 --> 00:18:23,100
and Jonas who was hired by John

252
00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:25,100
to help co-run that residency

253
00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:27,060
and Jonas was running the interviews

254
00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:29,180
so I was rejected

255
00:18:29,180 --> 00:18:32,020
and there are only two funding organizations

256
00:18:32,020 --> 00:18:34,000
in all of Bitcoin that have rejected me

257
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,900
over the past seven to eight years

258
00:18:35,900 --> 00:18:38,440
and that was first one was Chainco

259
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,200
and later on the next one was Brink

260
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,300
but and all the other ones

261
00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:44,620
I'm very grateful to have said yes.

262
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,880
But I didn't tip the bill without even knowing more about me

263
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,480
based on more or less who I was.

264
00:18:54,140 --> 00:18:57,180
So things that probably couldn't change about myself.

265
00:18:58,100 --> 00:19:01,160
And then John, to his credit,

266
00:19:01,620 --> 00:19:05,800
saw that I was doing more reviewing and commits on Thor

267
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:10,280
than probably half to all of the rest of the group combined

268
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:11,340
over the next two months.

269
00:19:11,340 --> 00:19:17,820
They were working, meeting together two or three times a week online, preparing for the residency during spring of 2019.

270
00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:23,560
Me, I was at home in France working on Bitcoin 4 without any supervision whatsoever.

271
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:31,580
And I was starting to rack up the reviews as best I could as a new contributor, learning, reviewing.

272
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:33,860
And then I started getting some commits.

273
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,160
Jonas did say to me, look, we don't know you.

274
00:19:36,260 --> 00:19:37,200
You should get some commits.

275
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:38,400
Maybe you should do a podcast.

276
00:19:38,580 --> 00:19:40,160
You should get your name out there.

277
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,340
all I wanted to do was work on core

278
00:19:42,340 --> 00:19:43,600
I didn't care about being famous

279
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:44,740
playing the fame game

280
00:19:44,740 --> 00:19:46,520
and that's basically how I've done it

281
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:47,540
for the last seven years

282
00:19:47,540 --> 00:19:48,440
I didn't really

283
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:49,980
and that was a mistake

284
00:19:49,980 --> 00:19:51,420
fame is very helpful

285
00:19:51,420 --> 00:19:53,620
and more so in El Salvador in fact

286
00:19:53,620 --> 00:19:54,380
but in general

287
00:19:54,380 --> 00:19:57,260
but yet I believe that my work

288
00:19:57,260 --> 00:19:57,900
was speak for itself

289
00:19:57,900 --> 00:19:58,380
and it did

290
00:19:58,380 --> 00:19:59,700
and within two or three weeks

291
00:19:59,700 --> 00:20:01,640
I had a call from JCO Labs

292
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:02,580
and it was basically

293
00:20:02,580 --> 00:20:03,980
Jonas saying

294
00:20:03,980 --> 00:20:06,120
hey John Newberry has watched

295
00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:06,860
what you've been doing

296
00:20:06,860 --> 00:20:08,540
and he would like to know

297
00:20:08,540 --> 00:20:09,380
if you want to speak with him

298
00:20:09,380 --> 00:20:09,920
and I said sure

299
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:17,720
And Mr. John encouraged me and said, you should be more ambitious, team higher, you could do this, keep going.

300
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:19,940
And so I did.

301
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:26,080
And then late May, right around the time when the Blue Mat was writing about diversity in DEI,

302
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:31,740
they did call me back and say, hey, you're kicking ass more or less.

303
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:33,000
You want to come to New York City?

304
00:20:33,780 --> 00:20:39,840
So the rejection turned into come participate even though you're not in the full program and getting your costs covered.

305
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:41,780
and you're not going to earn $8,500 a month.

306
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,520
But I was still invited to come for two and a half weeks

307
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,440
to the Bitcoin part of the residency,

308
00:20:48,900 --> 00:20:50,500
the Bitcoin seminar before they would roll,

309
00:20:50,580 --> 00:20:52,180
receive some work every day in the office.

310
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,400
And so I covered my costs of travel,

311
00:20:56,540 --> 00:20:59,560
and I did go, and they did place me in an apartment

312
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,280
in Queens with the other residencies, residents.

313
00:21:02,860 --> 00:21:05,780
They called themselves residents, the resis.

314
00:21:06,540 --> 00:21:08,320
And it was a very interesting experience.

315
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,700
in many ways.

316
00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:12,480
I did come out of it a bit depressed.

317
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:13,680
I can explain why.

318
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,100
But yeah, and so my experience with John

319
00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:17,040
was very helpful to me,

320
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:18,240
and I'm very reluctant to.

321
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:19,640
My goal is not to,

322
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:21,000
and I've always been reluctant to,

323
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,180
to come out with the other things I know

324
00:21:25,180 --> 00:21:26,940
because I'm grateful.

325
00:21:28,820 --> 00:21:30,560
There's a lot of nuance here.

326
00:21:30,900 --> 00:21:32,520
And of course, people have

327
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,580
different political opinions and stuff.

328
00:21:34,580 --> 00:21:42,940
I'm just very interested in the connection between wokeness and moral relativism.

329
00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:55,100
And I think like for Bitcoin plebs, they are mostly, I mean, they're leaning towards freedom values and, you know, anarcho-capitalism and such things, which is something I don't see in shitcoiners at all.

330
00:21:55,100 --> 00:22:13,180
And if I look at Brink's sponsors here, for instance, you have Coinbase and you have Zappo Bank, the Draper Foundation, and Marathon, and OKX, and Nexo, and BlockFi, and Gemini.

331
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:15,640
At the time, there were very few funders.

332
00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:22,480
And to be frank, well, Zappo was one of the only other organizations willing to fund Bitcoin Core developers.

333
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,060
They were funding Anthony Towns, H.A. Towns at the time.

334
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:32,400
And OKEx was also one of the few that was willing to fund and did fund for a time.

335
00:22:33,220 --> 00:22:36,140
And Coinbase said they would, but they never really did it well.

336
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:37,280
And they were pretty flaky.

337
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:44,320
And they left some core developers out to dry, all of a sudden cutting off the funding, if I remember correctly.

338
00:22:44,900 --> 00:22:51,980
So Coinbase was never very good about fulfilling their promise to support developers on Bitcoin, open source developers.

339
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:53,360
But OK, X did.

340
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:54,160
Sapo did.

341
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,820
And, you know, I'm uncomfortable with some of the criticisms.

342
00:22:57,300 --> 00:22:59,020
Yes, there may be shit corners funding.

343
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:07,480
But as far as I have seen, and you have to be fair, I have never, ever felt any coercion in any way.

344
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,120
Maybe I was lucky, but I don't believe I heard it.

345
00:23:10,340 --> 00:23:11,660
I haven't heard from others either.

346
00:23:12,460 --> 00:23:14,220
People telling them to.

347
00:23:14,220 --> 00:23:25,000
I think that sort of coercion happens more in terms of soft power, soft influence, friendships, social friendships, time hung out together.

348
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,080
Not so much because your funder asks you to.

349
00:23:28,260 --> 00:23:31,800
I've never heard of a funder putting strings on their grant.

350
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:33,720
No, but...

351
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:34,860
Apart from doing work.

352
00:23:34,860 --> 00:23:41,020
no no and i i don't believe there's a direct like i'm not accusing anyone of being corrupted

353
00:23:41,020 --> 00:23:48,240
directly and getting a bag of money for for doing corrupt things but but no if if there is corruption

354
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:54,640
and corruption with quotes i don't want to use overuse air quotes but but if there is sort of

355
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,880
that sort of thing going on it's on a social level yeah but that's sort of what i'm getting at like

356
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:09,500
Is there a problem if the funders are shitcoiners and then probably not as freedom-oriented?

357
00:24:10,700 --> 00:24:17,420
I don't think anyone at Kraken sees Bitcoin as important as a Bitcoin maximalist does.

358
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,380
If you think that these other things have value too.

359
00:24:22,460 --> 00:24:25,920
Actually, Kraken had a very base founder.

360
00:24:26,540 --> 00:24:27,980
Chesty Howell was base.

361
00:24:27,980 --> 00:24:30,320
Yeah, maybe that's a bad example.

362
00:24:30,940 --> 00:24:41,580
Yeah, and I'm going to do a lot of bad examples here because I'm not very good at understanding what these things are in terms of what the companies do.

363
00:24:41,580 --> 00:24:49,540
But I'm interested in the connection between softening up core to DEY values.

364
00:24:49,540 --> 00:24:57,200
And I think in the beginning, Bitcoin Core developers were very, what's the word?

365
00:25:01,700 --> 00:25:05,200
They weren't afraid of conflict, let's just say that.

366
00:25:05,380 --> 00:25:07,120
They were very disagreeable is the word.

367
00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:09,860
And they managed to somehow cooperate anyway.

368
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:16,640
And I feel this DIY thing is a sort of a forced agreeableness upon the whole thing.

369
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:17,240
I don't know.

370
00:25:17,700 --> 00:25:18,720
What are your thoughts around that?

371
00:25:19,540 --> 00:25:24,480
And that isn't what concerned, that isn't what impacted me.

372
00:25:24,700 --> 00:25:30,640
I have been personally, I felt very, very, very impacted by the DEI push.

373
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:39,480
The number one issue for me for working on CORE has been a small number of people who are pushing.

374
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:48,880
I wouldn't say purely necessarily for DEI, but the result of their, they desired a social change in CORE.

375
00:25:49,540 --> 00:25:51,060
that they then enact it.

376
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,040
And the problem was that if you were not on board,

377
00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:59,040
someone like me was expected to support this.

378
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,820
I wasn't going to be, at the time,

379
00:26:01,900 --> 00:26:03,380
I wasn't going to be the next maintainer

380
00:26:03,380 --> 00:26:06,780
because it was quite clear that at the time

381
00:26:06,780 --> 00:26:09,920
it was very desired for a female maintainer

382
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,920
to be the next one or two maintainers.

383
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,480
And in my eyes, it was quite clear,

384
00:26:15,620 --> 00:26:17,880
based on many things I saw up close,

385
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:24,380
in person as well as in interactions on the repository and other things that the goal was to

386
00:26:24,380 --> 00:26:32,640
train up and groom a certain person who was chosen to be groomed as a maintainer at the time probably

387
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:37,940
the peer for the peer-to-peer layer and then that person at some point another person appeared on

388
00:26:37,940 --> 00:26:44,120
the scene who was also chosen and we were more or less expected to support and promote that

389
00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:51,040
and help market these people who benefited from immediate runway of funding,

390
00:26:51,460 --> 00:26:55,080
media coverage, podcasts, articles in the press.

391
00:26:55,980 --> 00:27:02,040
And I personally helped promote them because I was contributing for two years to Bitcoin Optech.

392
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,320
And so I wrote articles that were favorable to their work.

393
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:13,920
And then after two years of this, I realized that, hey, it took me a little bit of time

394
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,000
because first I just wanted to become a contributor and find funding.

395
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,260
And as I wrote to you, I had to be very careful and self-censor.

396
00:27:23,100 --> 00:27:25,780
And once I did manage to succeed and find my place,

397
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,800
I became less and less comfortable with the role expected of me

398
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,080
because I felt it wasn't the right thing to do.

399
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,740
I didn't think it was a pure meritocracy if there were people who were chosen

400
00:27:37,740 --> 00:27:41,100
based on their relationships or based on their identity

401
00:27:41,100 --> 00:27:55,380
who we were expected to support And the problem got much worse than that I can kinpoint it was that time when my Bitcoin poor prolific contributions came to an end

402
00:27:55,380 --> 00:27:59,760
when I was seen as, it happened on one specific pull request

403
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,880
when I made a review that was, I believe,

404
00:28:04,940 --> 00:28:08,120
taken personally and caused a conflict.

405
00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:09,360
with John Yugen.

406
00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:13,660
Yeah, is this in June 2021 by any chance?

407
00:28:15,140 --> 00:28:19,440
Yeah, I mean, it was a full request made by Amidi,

408
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,000
who at the time, I believe,

409
00:28:22,220 --> 00:28:25,660
it was pretty clear to me that she was being trained

410
00:28:25,660 --> 00:28:27,620
and groomed.

411
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,120
She had much higher privileges on the repository

412
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:31,940
than many other people did.

413
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,120
And my review was just technical.

414
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:36,160
It was not personal.

415
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,840
and it led to a whole bunch of fallout

416
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,180
because the course, the trajectory of that pull request

417
00:28:44,180 --> 00:28:45,560
changed after my review

418
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,420
because it was an area of code I knew well.

419
00:28:48,460 --> 00:28:54,820
And I realized that I was expected to social approve things

420
00:28:54,820 --> 00:28:56,580
that I didn't technically agree with

421
00:28:56,580 --> 00:28:59,180
because, and then if I did not,

422
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,540
I was seen as not being supportive of the agenda.

423
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,380
And the whole thing blew up.

424
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:11,480
It came out that John was actually behind the boy quests because he was defending it rather than Amidi.

425
00:29:12,380 --> 00:29:16,000
And, or he was, he took it on himself.

426
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,480
There was a sort of armor around these people when they were chosen.

427
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:22,400
It was very risky for you.

428
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,820
See, Amidi had a mentor who was the same A.J. Towns.

429
00:29:26,820 --> 00:29:29,380
and so you would get

430
00:29:29,380 --> 00:29:30,960
John and AJ

431
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,040
and also Fankwake

432
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,440
on your case if you were not seen as

433
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:36,620
supportive of these people

434
00:29:36,620 --> 00:29:39,720
and there was a sort of a tight

435
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:40,920
group of

436
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,480
there was a

437
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,220
violence of Roman soldiers

438
00:29:45,220 --> 00:29:47,460
ready to step in and protect these chosen people

439
00:29:47,460 --> 00:29:48,580
if you were not supported

440
00:29:48,580 --> 00:29:51,140
and they all came to have

441
00:29:51,140 --> 00:29:53,220
had it that one full request which we can

442
00:29:53,220 --> 00:29:54,200
name

443
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,560
that changed the course of my career

444
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,760
so you mean they defended

445
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,620
them because of their gender

446
00:30:01,620 --> 00:30:03,880
or because of their cultural background

447
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,660
and not on technical

448
00:30:05,660 --> 00:30:06,560
you know I think it was

449
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,520
a mix of this person was picked

450
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,100
they were assigned them a mentor

451
00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:12,880
or a mentor would agree to come and help them

452
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,500
I think they were hand picked

453
00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:17,700
whether that was based on their gender or not

454
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:19,240
I mean

455
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,480
it looked that way

456
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,600
it looked that way

457
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,180
because it didn't appear like the person was exceptional.

458
00:30:26,500 --> 00:30:28,820
The people they picked were not exceptional in other ways.

459
00:30:29,020 --> 00:30:30,560
But, you know, how can you say?

460
00:30:30,620 --> 00:30:32,140
Maybe they just had a special relationship.

461
00:30:32,340 --> 00:30:34,960
Maybe they were mutual fans of each other.

462
00:30:35,060 --> 00:30:36,140
You know, this is human.

463
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:37,200
There are nuances.

464
00:30:37,980 --> 00:30:40,760
But the problem was because the pattern kept repeating.

465
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,980
And it was very clear to me that I had to be very careful.

466
00:30:43,980 --> 00:30:47,160
You were basically operating on a minefield.

467
00:30:47,980 --> 00:30:50,120
And that is still the case.

468
00:30:50,220 --> 00:30:52,980
It's just a little bit attenuated.

469
00:30:53,600 --> 00:31:03,540
But the PR in question, the pull request that changed the course of my trajectory working on Bitcoin, was Bitcoin Core pull request 22,245.

470
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,960
And there was fallout from that.

471
00:31:08,180 --> 00:31:17,420
I mean, Andrew H.L. acted, Peter Wheeler acted, Ben DeCarmen acted, Marco Falke acted, John Newberry acted.

472
00:31:17,420 --> 00:31:21,480
The whole list of the thing was going to be merged.

473
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:40,160
Reacts. One neutral comment by Vladimir, the lead maintainer. More comments. And then I made one review comment. I didn't say knack or anything aggressive. I just suggested that this wasn't the right direction.

474
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:46,880
and i got a bunch of private angry messages from john he took to he took me to the case to me on

475
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:52,960
the bitcoin board of irc uh myself as well as vassil dimoff as well as the lead maintainer

476
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:59,840
vladimir and then after that a bunch of people agreed with me suhas daftour who was the expert

477
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:07,680
in peer-to-peer agreed with me people started lining up with my comment and the poll request

478
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,500
was closed instead of merged after it had

479
00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:11,220
five acts by the most

480
00:32:11,220 --> 00:32:12,060
contributors.

481
00:32:13,380 --> 00:32:15,240
So I got a shit ton of heat for that.

482
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,320
And what was the pull request about?

483
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:19,160
It was

484
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,880
to stop, it was a

485
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:22,980
sort of a

486
00:32:22,980 --> 00:32:24,400
fine

487
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,220
P2P stop sending send

488
00:32:27,220 --> 00:32:29,080
adder V2 message to block relabel

489
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,220
me peers. It was an area that

490
00:32:31,220 --> 00:32:31,920
I knew well

491
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,940
for having reviewed it intensively

492
00:32:34,940 --> 00:32:36,760
and that Vasavvimov knew well because

493
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,680
he was told he had written and

494
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,460
Lidinger, Lander, Lander, Lander, Lander, because

495
00:32:40,460 --> 00:32:42,900
Lander had merged it

496
00:32:42,900 --> 00:32:43,720
so

497
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,880
yeah, so the three people

498
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,620
who really knew it well didn't agree and then

499
00:32:48,620 --> 00:32:50,320
everybody else aligned with my review

500
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,520
but my review bucked five

501
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,300
acts by

502
00:32:54,300 --> 00:32:56,600
future maintainer and

503
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,460
project owner, Ed Chao

504
00:32:58,460 --> 00:33:00,520
by Peter Huera, who was also project maintainer

505
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,600
and owner, Marco

506
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,580
Falke, who was also maintainer, so

507
00:33:04,580 --> 00:33:06,560
three maintainers that already said yes

508
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,120
John Newberry said yes.

509
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,140
Of course, it came out that John had actually suggested to Amidi to do this change.

510
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:15,800
And so Amidi was just a proxy.

511
00:33:16,580 --> 00:33:20,520
And I don't think that, I think it came to light that a lot of that was going on,

512
00:33:20,580 --> 00:33:23,020
where basically John was suggesting things.

513
00:33:23,220 --> 00:33:29,300
The problem back at Chaincode that I saw was that we were expected to help people

514
00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:34,160
that were being, the hand-chosen people, we were expected to help them.

515
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:45,720
And that came in the form of private requests to help understand Bitcoin for technical details or to help review code or to help maybe help them figure something out with the code.

516
00:33:46,540 --> 00:33:49,000
And I asked around and it wasn't just me.

517
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:53,140
It was happening to the other residents who said, yeah, yeah, they asked me too.

518
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:53,920
And they asked me too.

519
00:33:54,180 --> 00:33:58,600
And basically our role was to help train and support the handpicked people.

520
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:05,200
But I didn't realize at the time, I just realized that after the months that came after that, nobody was funded except the hand-picked people.

521
00:34:05,420 --> 00:34:11,240
And all the guys were just unemployed and wondering what to do, and there were no perspectives on finding funding.

522
00:34:12,060 --> 00:34:18,500
And I believe three people from that residency are still active on Bitcoin Core and Funded NAN.

523
00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:28,300
But it took me almost a year, and the other two, it took them literally years, maybe three years, to find funding.

524
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,080
and these guys are active today

525
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:38,140
but it was crazy the sacrifice you had to make

526
00:34:38,140 --> 00:34:39,900
at the time to find funding

527
00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:41,760
in terms of financial sacrifice

528
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,380
and so it was very blatant to the people

529
00:34:45,380 --> 00:34:48,600
who were spending a year, one year, two years, three years

530
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,800
with no income trying to make it work

531
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,620
that's really painful, my dude

532
00:34:53,620 --> 00:34:54,980
that is super painful

533
00:34:54,980 --> 00:34:57,360
that is fucking painful

534
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:16,600
And I say that with real feeling because I went from earning a lot of money to earning zero money because I was a senior engineer and technically saving assets at multinational corporations on intense missions that were very well paid to being basically a free software open source developer.

535
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:36,500
And we were watching as the hand pit people would just glide right through with zero financial loss, zero drop in income from maybe their previous job or maybe just straight out graduation later on, right into funding with zero financial difficulty or sacrifice.

536
00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:39,340
And so to my eyes, it was relatively blatant.

537
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,580
And I don't want to speak for the other people, but we were all discussing it.

538
00:35:44,780 --> 00:35:49,860
Like we were sharing our difficulties that we were experiencing in life because here we are.

539
00:35:49,940 --> 00:35:55,380
We wanted to work on Bitcoin or Bitcoin Core or Lightning, as it were, depending on the developer.

540
00:35:55,820 --> 00:35:57,860
And there was no funding and no support.

541
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,100
And we were all struggling.

542
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:04,920
And so we were taking freelance missions and discussing what we can do and supporting each other.

543
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:11,700
and while the chosen ones just glided right through on the red carpet that was rolled out.

544
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,320
And it was a little bit disgusting, to be honest.

545
00:36:15,220 --> 00:36:16,960
I mean, yeah, there is bitterness.

546
00:36:17,260 --> 00:36:19,140
And would I have done it again? Probably not.

547
00:36:21,660 --> 00:36:26,140
As much as it was my goal in life, all I wanted to do in life was work on Bitcoin.

548
00:36:27,140 --> 00:36:30,240
And did you apply for funding from Brink here?

549
00:36:30,500 --> 00:36:32,120
And did you get it? Or what happened?

550
00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:35,120
It didn't exist until...

551
00:36:35,980 --> 00:36:40,140
I think Brink was created the same year as that whole request I cited

552
00:36:40,140 --> 00:36:42,720
that pretty much ended my career in core.

553
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,280
And I didn't explain how that happened, but that could be explained.

554
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,860
But it marked a before and after, a very clear before and after.

555
00:36:50,980 --> 00:36:52,740
I was extremely prolific up to that point.

556
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:54,820
And after that, everything changed.

557
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,200
And was that just the funding or did you feel like...

558
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,600
I was funded at that time by Spiral.

559
00:37:02,940 --> 00:37:05,100
That was called Square Crypto at the time.

560
00:37:05,940 --> 00:37:06,220
Oh, yeah.

561
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,800
But then Brink was created a little bit after that.

562
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,640
No, Brink was created before that, late 2020, early 2021.

563
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,960
And I had applied before that pull request that I cited.

564
00:37:21,580 --> 00:37:26,260
That pull request I cited was in June 2021, June 14th.

565
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:26,680
How interesting.

566
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:27,300
That's my birthday.

567
00:37:27,860 --> 00:37:29,500
It was created on my birthday in 2021.

568
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:39,300
So I think the week or two before that whole request, I had received word from John, again, that I was rejected.

569
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,320
I did apply to Brink, and I was rejected.

570
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,880
So the only two funding organizations that ever rejected me, and thank you to all the other ones,

571
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,020
our chain code labs that said no to me, and then later sort of said yes.

572
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:57,620
And then to, thanks to my working super hard.

573
00:37:57,620 --> 00:38:06,000
and then um brook i applied to bring in and somebody said no but what was it only the funding

574
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:11,420
or did you feel a motivational hit there or like were you depressed by this whole thing is that why

575
00:38:11,420 --> 00:38:21,080
you became less prolific i started being funded in march 2020 after on my in my 13th month of

576
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:26,000
working more or less half time to full time on bitcoin core it was all i wanted to do

577
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:32,500
So in my 13th month, I started, I received my first funding with a grant that began with Square Crypto.

578
00:38:32,500 --> 00:38:35,600
At the time, it was $80,000 a year.

579
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,500
My first grant was for $80,000 for one year.

580
00:38:38,980 --> 00:38:46,260
So definitely not an upper echelon of core developer pay, but it was a start.

581
00:38:46,420 --> 00:38:54,760
And I could, you know, yes, it was several times less than I was earning previously as an experienced developer.

582
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,920
But it was something.

583
00:38:59,300 --> 00:39:02,520
And so I was already funded, thankfully, by that time.

584
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,000
And Spiral, Spirer Crypto, which became Spiral later on,

585
00:39:06,100 --> 00:39:08,020
did fund me for four years before dropping me.

586
00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:15,340
Some people within Spiral nowadays are not very friendly to me.

587
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:20,660
But did you feel less motivated after that?

588
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,160
What did you feel internally?

589
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:33,800
The most demotivating thing, as soon as you have even a little bit of funding to make ends meet, then it no longer really demotivates you until you see maybe someone else hitting three times more who's also a new developer.

590
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:40,600
Just because the red carpet was rolled out for that person and not for you.

591
00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:43,700
But it might be twice more, maybe three times more.

592
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,360
Some people sacked grants very effectively.

593
00:39:45,900 --> 00:39:49,420
I was actually accused of being the record holder in sacking grants.

594
00:39:50,140 --> 00:39:51,040
I wasn't the first.

595
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,120
I only did it twice, actually.

596
00:39:53,440 --> 00:40:00,220
Every other year of the eight, I was on one single grant, as I am currently, with OpenThats.

597
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:01,640
And that is something I'd like to point out.

598
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:07,420
I see a lot of people criticizing all of the funding organizations, cancel all the funding to developers on board.

599
00:40:07,780 --> 00:40:09,140
And I disagree with that.

600
00:40:09,940 --> 00:40:11,080
And I'd like to mention something.

601
00:40:11,220 --> 00:40:17,000
And this criticism does come from the, I would say, the NOS or the BIP 110 side.

602
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:21,300
they lump all of the funding organizations together.

603
00:40:22,180 --> 00:40:24,360
But they really aren't all the same.

604
00:40:24,580 --> 00:40:26,820
They are very different, in my humble opinion.

605
00:40:27,820 --> 00:40:31,620
So some are more independent than others.

606
00:40:32,420 --> 00:40:37,320
Let's say for the sake of, let's say there's a core orthodoxy.

607
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,880
Let's say there's the core, these are the people we want core.

608
00:40:42,100 --> 00:40:44,180
There are some that will follow that orthodoxy,

609
00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:46,000
and there are others that are more independent.

610
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,720
and happily someone wants to remain independent.

611
00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:52,720
And I would say the more independent ones

612
00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:55,180
would be OpenSats, notably,

613
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,560
and perhaps HRF Foundation.

614
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:58,740
They have their agenda.

615
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,380
It's not so much tied to core as it is to other things.

616
00:41:02,100 --> 00:41:03,060
I would guess.

617
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:05,340
And then on the other hand,

618
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,940
you have the more core-centric funding organizations

619
00:41:07,940 --> 00:41:10,720
like Brink, Chaincode Labs,

620
00:41:11,180 --> 00:41:14,660
and Firewall is sort of in the middle

621
00:41:14,660 --> 00:41:18,180
because Spiral has a focus on lightning as well as on design.

622
00:41:19,180 --> 00:41:22,540
And so Spiral is sort of in its own category,

623
00:41:22,740 --> 00:41:25,760
but the development, the core development side of Spiral

624
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,340
is fairly core centric as well.

625
00:41:29,100 --> 00:41:34,780
Whereas OpenSats has been willing for years, I believe,

626
00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:44,920
to fund a Nox developer They have recently begun funding a BitCoin developer to work with Eric Fossil

627
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:46,000
His name is Philip.

628
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,400
And so that's a full-time grant

629
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,780
to work on another implementation.

630
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,120
And it's my understanding is that the only reason OpenStats

631
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,880
does not currently fund a Notts developer

632
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,560
is because they haven't gotten an application yet

633
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,520
from someone who they felt was qualified enough to receive.

634
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,520
Okay, yeah, yeah.

635
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:12,520
But OpenStats is, I think, clearly willing to support non-core implementations.

636
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,520
Yeah.

637
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:25,520
I've seen, first of all, a thread from Vitalik Buterin back in 2014, where he explains why

638
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:31,120
he wouldn't why he didn't try to build ethereum on bitcoin because he was uh

639
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:38,700
basically told to to fuck off and we don't want that here we we want bitcoin to be money and

640
00:42:38,700 --> 00:42:44,620
simple and one purpose and stuff and i see i think it's the start where guy i saw an interview with

641
00:42:44,620 --> 00:42:52,340
where he also says similar things that a a bunch of core developers back then didn't want that there

642
00:42:52,340 --> 00:42:58,460
the narrative is sort of like, but now Core is much more open and Core is much more willing to

643
00:42:58,460 --> 00:43:04,440
innovate and all of this. And at the same time, you have this Opnet stuff and the Citria stuff and

644
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:13,280
people building or basically doing shitcoin scams on Bitcoin. And it's like the attitude

645
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:21,060
has completely changed with this. And do you think this is connected? How is this connected to the

646
00:43:21,060 --> 00:43:27,780
whole wokeness slide and and like if it's not the funding what what is it why why why has the culture

647
00:43:27,780 --> 00:43:35,560
changed from from like protecting bitcoin as money to to more uh shit coins on bitcoin

648
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:45,180
well first of all the people who were the chosen one that in my experience speaking with him were

649
00:43:45,180 --> 00:43:45,840
much more

650
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,100
spoke much more highly

651
00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:51,080
of Vitalik and shit-cundry

652
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,400
in general, or Ethereum, if you will.

653
00:43:54,020 --> 00:43:55,060
Certainly than I would.

654
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,140
I always considered Vitalik to be a bit of

655
00:43:57,140 --> 00:43:59,060
a soothsayer, you know, playing

656
00:43:59,060 --> 00:44:01,000
the magic flute and the snake charming

657
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:02,940
the VCs sort of thing.

658
00:44:03,180 --> 00:44:05,220
But that, if I said that to

659
00:44:05,220 --> 00:44:07,080
at least two of the hand-chosen

660
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:08,440
people,

661
00:44:08,860 --> 00:44:10,060
the chosen people,

662
00:44:10,660 --> 00:44:12,940
they would very vehemently disagree with me.

663
00:44:12,980 --> 00:44:13,420
And they did.

664
00:44:13,420 --> 00:44:18,660
I mean, some of my arguments with them were over shitcoinery and all that.

665
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:20,440
I was definitely a Bitcoin-only person.

666
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:21,240
I always have been.

667
00:44:21,620 --> 00:44:22,860
I have zero interest in Ethereum.

668
00:44:23,220 --> 00:44:28,760
I don't really have a high opinion of the other ones.

669
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:40,080
And so I'm certainly not an admirer of Vitalik, aside from that he's probably quite intelligent in this particular way, obviously, because he's been successful with Ethereum to an extent.

670
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:44,980
But that's not something I want on Bitcoin or something that I admire as a coin core developer.

671
00:44:45,780 --> 00:44:53,620
And so, look, a lot of this goes back to my, as I mentioned in my presentation at TimeBee, selection criteria matters.

672
00:44:54,440 --> 00:45:05,900
And when you have an organization that is running the developer selection and training pipeline, the selection criteria they are using changes the way your organization will look.

673
00:45:05,900 --> 00:45:10,800
And there was a clear emphasis on a certain type of person.

674
00:45:11,540 --> 00:45:26,360
It was clear for years that the OG maintainers and project owners were either burning out as maintainers, wishing to set back as maintainers, or perhaps preferring to work more on their strengths like research.

675
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:35,860
And so new people had to be found to pass the torch to, but the selection criteria for those new people obviously changes everything.

676
00:45:35,900 --> 00:45:48,900
And so if you choose, if you select for people who are young, like shit coins from academia or from, you know, big cities or blue cities or whatever sort of background, woke friendly.

677
00:45:49,460 --> 00:46:01,860
I believe the people who were making the selection, John Newberry did have a what looked to me like a far left political leaning in his other Twitter profile.

678
00:46:01,860 --> 00:46:05,740
He did have another profile account, which I found looking him up.

679
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,220
And I was like, okay, this guy is like radical left.

680
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:19,980
But I didn't talk about it to anyone actually until now because I was just keen on trying to make, on optimizing my ability to contribute.

681
00:46:20,940 --> 00:46:24,700
And so if you start attacking people, so I just noted and learned about it.

682
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:26,520
And I said, okay, this guy's pretty far left.

683
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:28,820
And he chose Jonas.

684
00:46:28,940 --> 00:46:29,920
Was Jonas far left?

685
00:46:30,340 --> 00:46:31,420
Maybe not so much.

686
00:46:31,420 --> 00:46:32,440
He was into baseball

687
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,740
He was scouting baseball talent

688
00:46:35,740 --> 00:46:37,580
But what do you do when you scout baseball talent?

689
00:46:37,660 --> 00:46:38,480
You're looking at youth

690
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,160
You're looking at young people

691
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,620
And so I think that came through

692
00:46:43,620 --> 00:46:45,060
The goal was

693
00:46:45,060 --> 00:46:47,500
Maybe they were preferring

694
00:46:47,500 --> 00:46:49,320
Certain gender or perhaps they were preferring

695
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:51,140
Certain racial diversity

696
00:46:51,140 --> 00:46:52,680
Maybe not, I'm not sure

697
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,280
Gender I believe was clearly the case

698
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,080
But they were also having preferences

699
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:58,600
In age

700
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,760
they wanted youth

701
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,960
the wonderkin

702
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:06,760
who was selected among the men

703
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,000
was Antoine

704
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:09,880
Antoine was probably the youngest guy

705
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,520
he was I don't know 19 or something

706
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,660
maybe 20, 21 but he was very young

707
00:47:14,660 --> 00:47:16,800
and you know he was brilliant

708
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,460
until he had his following up with Cenkow

709
00:47:18,460 --> 00:47:20,080
which I think everybody knows about

710
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:21,160
if they don't they can look it up

711
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:22,960
he was also from France and a friend

712
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,180
and it made me very sad what happened

713
00:47:25,180 --> 00:47:28,580
between Antoine and Spiral Steve Lee

714
00:47:28,580 --> 00:47:33,020
Matt Corral and between Antoine and his former employer, Chain Code Labs.

715
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,700
But he was the brilliant guy of the residency and Chain Code welcomed him.

716
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:42,980
He was the only one, apart from the two women who participated, who got funding.

717
00:47:43,180 --> 00:47:45,040
And I've lost my train of thought.

718
00:47:46,500 --> 00:47:54,580
No, but it's very interesting to me, these dynamics, because I view the average pleb hodler

719
00:47:54,580 --> 00:48:00,220
as the red state shotgun pickup truck guy

720
00:48:00,220 --> 00:48:02,740
who wants to be independent and don't tread on me.

721
00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:05,540
And then you have the developer class

722
00:48:05,540 --> 00:48:07,260
that is getting more and more blue-haired

723
00:48:07,260 --> 00:48:10,720
the further down the wokeness, the slide you go.

724
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:12,620
And then you have...

725
00:48:12,620 --> 00:48:15,420
And I found my train of thought.

726
00:48:15,420 --> 00:48:17,680
So if you're selecting for young people

727
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,260
who want to live and work in Manhattan

728
00:48:20,260 --> 00:48:23,060
or San Francisco

729
00:48:23,060 --> 00:48:26,340
or later on bringing office London,

730
00:48:27,140 --> 00:48:29,860
you're definitely going to be excluding the people like,

731
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:32,920
let's say me, who doesn't want to be...

732
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,200
I no longer want to be in big city.

733
00:48:35,300 --> 00:48:36,800
I had my big city days in Paris.

734
00:48:36,980 --> 00:48:39,860
I did spend some time in New York City.

735
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:41,620
But that's behind me now.

736
00:48:41,780 --> 00:48:44,300
You're excluding the guy with three kids who's married,

737
00:48:44,300 --> 00:48:45,500
who has a mortgage to pay,

738
00:48:45,820 --> 00:48:50,560
who's not going to up and move to the Chenko Labs offices for a year.

739
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,460
You're excluding the guy like me

740
00:48:53,460 --> 00:48:56,280
Who would rather be building a citadel in El Salvador

741
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,080
Or surfing in France

742
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,280
You're excluding a lot of people

743
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,620
And so what kind of people are you left with?

744
00:49:04,340 --> 00:49:06,600
Well, I mean

745
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,180
It speaks for itself what you're going to get

746
00:49:09,180 --> 00:49:10,820
If you select for that

747
00:49:10,820 --> 00:49:13,360
And so I got some pushback on Twitter

748
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:15,660
From somebody who said

749
00:49:15,660 --> 00:49:18,760
Well, it's pretty odd

750
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,500
that someone who wants to make an office in El Salvador

751
00:49:21,500 --> 00:49:23,120
would be criticizing offices.

752
00:49:23,740 --> 00:49:26,540
Well, I no longer really think

753
00:49:26,540 --> 00:49:28,500
that I want to make an office at all

754
00:49:28,500 --> 00:49:30,160
because I already have too much on my plate

755
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:31,780
and it's very hard to be productive already,

756
00:49:31,940 --> 00:49:32,660
especially in El Salvador.

757
00:49:33,220 --> 00:49:34,980
El Salvador is its own challenge.

758
00:49:35,460 --> 00:49:37,660
But if you were to make an office in El Salvador,

759
00:49:38,060 --> 00:49:39,700
you certainly would not be attracted

760
00:49:39,700 --> 00:49:41,240
to the same profile of people

761
00:49:41,240 --> 00:49:42,900
as Chaco Labs in New York

762
00:49:42,900 --> 00:49:46,280
and Spiral in San Francisco,

763
00:49:46,420 --> 00:49:47,520
wherever it is over there,

764
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:52,440
or local host in San Francisco or MITBCI in Boston

765
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,220
or London where Brink is.

766
00:49:55,460 --> 00:49:58,220
I mean, these are completely different destinations and profiles.

767
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:01,620
Yeah, and then you have the third category,

768
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,280
which is a lot of miners fall into this category, I think.

769
00:50:05,740 --> 00:50:07,440
These are my biases.

770
00:50:07,740 --> 00:50:09,340
I'm showing them to the world here.

771
00:50:09,340 --> 00:50:15,120
And the VC funders that are just the Gordon Gekko types

772
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:16,600
that are in love with money

773
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,240
and just want to make as much fiat gains

774
00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:20,540
as soon as possible, right?

775
00:50:21,500 --> 00:50:24,000
Yeah, and see, if your office is also in the US

776
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:25,840
where you have capital gains on Bitcoin,

777
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,660
ChainCode Labs only pays you in dollars.

778
00:50:28,860 --> 00:50:29,880
They do not pay you in Bitcoin.

779
00:50:30,300 --> 00:50:33,220
Whereas funders like OpenSats and HRF,

780
00:50:33,660 --> 00:50:35,080
they, as far as I know,

781
00:50:35,180 --> 00:50:37,260
only pay or prefer to pay only in Bitcoin.

782
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,800
So you're encouraging different kinds of people.

783
00:50:41,300 --> 00:50:43,040
If you have the developer in New York City

784
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:44,780
who has paid 100% in fiat,

785
00:50:45,120 --> 00:51:02,180
And who is in that environment versus someone in working remotely getting their grant paid in Bitcoin or in El Salvador or wherever they are far off in the field, perhaps in some Bitcoin circular economy.

786
00:51:02,180 --> 00:51:05,200
You're definitely working more with people who use Bitcoin as money.

787
00:51:06,580 --> 00:51:11,040
Whereas in the U.S., you have the mentality of the digital asset narrative,

788
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:17,600
the Bitcoin as an asset, which justifies the capital gains taxes because it's an asset.

789
00:51:20,060 --> 00:51:23,960
And I fear that we are more and more even here in El Salvador.

790
00:51:24,100 --> 00:51:26,700
And I spoke about this yesterday with a friend of mine in the Bitcoin office

791
00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:29,860
who runs the Bitcoin office for Stacey,

792
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,840
Mario, who runs also the AI office.

793
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:33,960
You know, I asked him,

794
00:51:34,100 --> 00:51:36,680
you know, I feel like the Bitcoin as money narrative

795
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:38,900
is going down here a little bit

796
00:51:38,900 --> 00:51:41,280
since the INF deal, I could be wrong.

797
00:51:42,020 --> 00:51:44,180
And everyone, the talk of the town at the moment

798
00:51:44,180 --> 00:51:45,900
is assets on Bitcoin,

799
00:51:47,260 --> 00:51:48,180
even here in El Salvador.

800
00:51:49,060 --> 00:51:50,940
Oh, and it's awful because like,

801
00:51:51,060 --> 00:51:54,080
I think this is the worry

802
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,260
of the shotgun pickup truck player,

803
00:51:56,260 --> 00:52:03,120
And I would sort of represent that as like the family man who just wants to say fuck you to the government as much as possible.

804
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:12,240
Because we want to be responsible for our own lives and therefore we get our freedoms because we earn it.

805
00:52:13,020 --> 00:52:15,200
That's why we are into Bitcoin.

806
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:24,660
That's why any Bitcoin maximalist is into Bitcoin, in my view, because we understand money and we understand the importance of not diluting it.

807
00:52:24,660 --> 00:52:26,600
and all of this stuff.

808
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,240
And then you hear these horror stories

809
00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:32,020
about the blue-haired stuff in development.

810
00:52:32,660 --> 00:52:35,020
And of course, it makes us super worried

811
00:52:35,020 --> 00:52:39,040
because you can be as knowledgeable as you want

812
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:40,520
about computer networks.

813
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,460
It doesn't say anything about how much you understand of economics.

814
00:52:45,260 --> 00:52:48,380
So I see a very big risk there.

815
00:52:48,540 --> 00:52:52,420
And I think that's why NOTS is at 20% mostly

816
00:52:52,420 --> 00:52:57,780
because people are super worried that this thing has now taken...

817
00:52:57,780 --> 00:53:02,440
It has come to the point where the arrogance has taken over so much

818
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,180
and they act like they run the show now

819
00:53:05,180 --> 00:53:07,740
and they can build whatever bullshit,

820
00:53:08,060 --> 00:53:10,660
like multiplayer online games on Bitcoin

821
00:53:10,660 --> 00:53:15,080
and stuff that will just make it worse as money.

822
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:20,380
And to me, there are red flags everywhere in this.

823
00:53:20,380 --> 00:53:24,460
and it's just sad that it's gone as far as it has.

824
00:53:25,500 --> 00:53:28,240
Well, yeah, to me, I mean, the off-return thing,

825
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:33,140
and I try to be not in any of the tribes, right?

826
00:53:33,140 --> 00:53:38,360
I consider myself relatively disenfranchised by Core.

827
00:53:39,180 --> 00:53:41,860
The Core no longer invites me like they no longer invite Blue.

828
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,240
There was a pretext that was used.

829
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:46,900
It was a little bit bullshitty.

830
00:53:46,900 --> 00:53:50,420
it was used once but now since it was used once

831
00:53:50,420 --> 00:53:51,940
now I'm no longer invited at all

832
00:53:51,940 --> 00:53:52,860
and

833
00:53:52,860 --> 00:53:56,500
I don't really

834
00:53:56,500 --> 00:53:57,780
consider myself part of the

835
00:53:57,780 --> 00:53:59,920
BIP 110 tribe either

836
00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:02,380
and you know the other day I got a bunch of

837
00:54:02,380 --> 00:54:04,100
hate from Ordinal Sass because

838
00:54:04,100 --> 00:54:06,560
the Ordinal's BIP

839
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:07,760
was closed

840
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,520
but of course they conveniently forgot that only

841
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,500
two months prior I was the one who

842
00:54:12,500 --> 00:54:14,520
closed the CAT BIP draft

843
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:16,340
for reasons that I amply gave

844
00:54:16,340 --> 00:54:17,640
at the moment of closing it.

845
00:54:18,140 --> 00:54:21,400
So, you know, you go from being hated by one side

846
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:22,740
to being hated by the other side.

847
00:54:22,820 --> 00:54:26,580
I got some backstage heat last week

848
00:54:26,580 --> 00:54:28,700
from my Time B conference talk

849
00:54:28,700 --> 00:54:30,440
because it came out a week ago.

850
00:54:30,980 --> 00:54:32,200
And so that made some people angry.

851
00:54:32,300 --> 00:54:33,240
I got some heat from CORE.

852
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,140
I get heat from BIP 110 when I closed the CAT.

853
00:54:37,260 --> 00:54:38,660
I got heat from the Ordnance camp

854
00:54:38,660 --> 00:54:41,420
when the Ordnance didn't move forward.

855
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:43,560
I mean, you're going to be hated by everybody

856
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:45,820
if you're trying to stick to your principles

857
00:54:45,820 --> 00:54:47,140
rather than sticking to a trial.

858
00:54:47,820 --> 00:54:49,600
And maybe my principles are flawed

859
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:50,900
and maybe they, you know,

860
00:54:50,940 --> 00:54:51,980
and I'm a very human person,

861
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,580
but it's just what happens.

862
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:56,980
And, you know, right now,

863
00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:58,780
I've again lost my train of thought.

864
00:54:58,960 --> 00:54:59,760
I've wanted to say that.

865
00:55:00,580 --> 00:55:02,280
Oh, well, I can say thank you

866
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:03,600
for closing the Ordinals, Bip.

867
00:55:05,100 --> 00:55:07,020
Well, I mean, it was obviously a shit show

868
00:55:07,020 --> 00:55:08,620
that nobody wanted to step in.

869
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,800
The Ordinals thing really is smelly

870
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:13,680
because there's a few trolley accounts

871
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:14,580
that go after you

872
00:55:14,580 --> 00:55:16,780
and say a bunch of nonsense on social media.

873
00:55:17,100 --> 00:55:20,680
And generally, I avoid responding to ankle biting and trolling,

874
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,020
but I did respond a tiny bit.

875
00:55:23,020 --> 00:55:27,760
I never am happy if I cede to responding.

876
00:55:28,260 --> 00:55:29,700
It's better just to ignore it completely.

877
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,080
I ignore the cat stuff, the cat snipe.

878
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:39,900
at me. I ignored that almost completely. So sometimes I'm better at avoiding responding

879
00:55:39,900 --> 00:55:42,220
to ankle biting and yapping.

880
00:55:42,220 --> 00:55:50,900
I think the cat had mostly a trolly kind of thing to it. It's like trolling back sort

881
00:55:50,900 --> 00:55:52,460
of. I don't think it was that serious.

882
00:55:52,460 --> 00:55:54,980
I remember you and Giacomo supported it.

883
00:55:54,980 --> 00:55:59,840
Yeah, yeah. I had so much fun with it. You posted pictures of cats and everyone on the

884
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:07,040
other side went crazy. But you just said meow and everyone went crazy. So that was fun.

885
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:12,400
But yes, back to what I was, I'm sorry, back to my line of thinking. I do believe the op return was

886
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:19,360
not by itself the reason. I tried to advise Core to go gently or differently with this

887
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:24,080
in a couple of core dev meetings. I was told that I was a problem for saying such a thing.

888
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:28,320
I think some people consider what I said and agree with it, but by and large it didn't go along with

889
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:32,600
With the collectivist angle,

890
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,180
Angkor, for about three years,

891
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:39,780
did have a collectivism that was named as such,

892
00:56:39,900 --> 00:56:42,180
collectivism, and I tried to push back on that in meetings

893
00:56:42,180 --> 00:56:44,280
and I sort of met with, well,

894
00:56:44,740 --> 00:56:47,060
I was in favor of keeping things ad hoc

895
00:56:47,060 --> 00:56:49,200
and everyone having their own opinion and not having...

896
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:51,080
Well, named collectivism.

897
00:56:51,340 --> 00:56:52,440
They called it collectivism.

898
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,680
It was called collectivist action and collectivism.

899
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:57,940
And I was like horrified.

900
00:56:57,940 --> 00:57:00,460
privately when I read that during four-debt meetings.

901
00:57:00,460 --> 00:57:00,940
Rightfully so.

902
00:57:01,500 --> 00:57:05,940
And I pushed back on that gently saying, well, no, I prefer an ad hoc approach and everybody

903
00:57:05,940 --> 00:57:11,280
able to have their individual, you know, and I was met with criticism for that.

904
00:57:11,900 --> 00:57:17,900
I don't recall the exact criticism, but basically collectivism was the word and collective action.

905
00:57:17,900 --> 00:57:23,160
And, you know, the signing of the declaration about mempool policy was one such collective

906
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:24,820
action, which I did.

907
00:57:24,940 --> 00:57:25,660
I refused to sign.

908
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:27,440
I was asked in private time.

909
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:29,400
and I gave my reasons for not doing so.

910
00:57:30,060 --> 00:57:31,640
But I believe that the operaturn,

911
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:33,900
like I believe Jack and Will thinks as well,

912
00:57:33,980 --> 00:57:35,260
but I've always felt from the start

913
00:57:35,260 --> 00:57:38,780
that the operaturn thing was not advisable.

914
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:41,980
Technically, there may be good reasons to do it.

915
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,140
Sometimes you can get away with doing something

916
00:57:45,140 --> 00:57:46,440
that has technical good reasons,

917
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:50,520
but people that will make people upset,

918
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:52,480
but you can sometimes manage to do it

919
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:56,540
by doing it in a way that is maybe wise.

920
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:01,240
But the way this happened was too provocative.

921
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,620
And I think it should have been more consensual.

922
00:58:04,780 --> 00:58:05,900
It should have gone more slowly.

923
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:07,540
It should have been less antagonistic.

924
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:09,320
But, you know, we're not perfect.

925
00:58:10,980 --> 00:58:12,720
One could say, hey, you're a funny guy.

926
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:14,480
You made people angry with your ordinal decision.

927
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:17,560
Or, hey, you made people angry with the cat decision.

928
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:22,180
So, yeah, it's possible to step in anyway while still trying to do things wisely.

929
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:24,520
So it's impossibly perfect.

930
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:36,720
But I do believe that OpReturn was the straw that broke the camel's back after a cumulative amount of things that eroded trust in Bitcoin Core, rather than just on its phone, an incident.

931
00:58:37,140 --> 00:58:42,180
And many people defending Core were defending it as if it was on its own.

932
00:58:42,700 --> 00:58:46,440
Whereas to me, it was just the one drop that too many.

933
00:58:46,860 --> 00:58:54,020
And trust in Core has been, in my opinion, been eroding slowly over a long period of time due to the many things I've personally been seeing.

934
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,440
And I have not even detailed them at all in this discussion.

935
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:06,760
And there were points in my talk at Plan B that I didn't have time to get to that I would like to cover perhaps in another podcast.

936
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:07,940
I mean, I've been out of time.

937
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:10,960
You can cover them right here if you want to.

938
00:59:11,060 --> 00:59:12,560
Like, what were you thinking of?

939
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:21,920
So my situation is a bit weird because if you see court, and I do, as, let's say, a royal court.

940
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:29,180
maybe there's a king maybe there's a queen and then you have courtesans and there's royal intrigue

941
00:59:29,180 --> 00:59:36,460
and there are defenders of the throne and at any given moment i tend to look i follow the processes

942
00:59:36,460 --> 00:59:42,860
quite closely even when i'm not actively manifesting myself in review or pull request

943
00:59:42,860 --> 00:59:49,980
openings on core i've been watching the interactions for seven eight years now and i i really it's

944
00:59:49,980 --> 00:59:52,900
quite clear in my mind, okay, this moment, this person is the defender of the throne.

945
00:59:53,020 --> 00:59:54,080
This person is the king.

946
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:55,120
This person is the queen.

947
00:59:55,260 --> 00:59:57,720
This person is the king's advisor.

948
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:00,620
This person currently has the king's ear.

949
01:00:01,620 --> 01:00:04,820
Of course, there are a couple, three kings, if we're going to be technical.

950
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:07,000
You know, maybe it's more of a commit bureau.

951
01:00:07,620 --> 01:00:09,340
But there's a very hierarchical.

952
01:00:09,340 --> 01:00:16,120
And I was on the inside of this, and I was in the inside conversations where I saw how

953
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:19,140
the process works socially.

954
01:00:19,980 --> 01:00:24,060
As part of the inner clique, but only as someone who expected to be a supporter.

955
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:33,500
So, and then I sort of took my independence after that famous full request when I realized my core life was pretty much changing drastically.

956
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,400
I stepped down as Bitcoin Core Review Club co-maintainer.

957
01:00:37,820 --> 01:00:43,920
I stopped contributing to Bitcoin Optech because I realized that what I was expected to do was support the narratives.

958
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:48,060
and I basically distanced myself from John Newberry

959
01:00:48,060 --> 01:00:51,100
because I saw things going on that I did not agree with profoundly

960
01:00:51,100 --> 01:00:54,080
in the way the open source project should be governed

961
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,040
and should manage itself.

962
01:00:56,540 --> 01:00:59,980
I saw things that I thought were abusive and very unhealthy

963
01:00:59,980 --> 01:01:02,180
and I don't want to use the word corruption.

964
01:01:02,780 --> 01:01:03,620
That's not the right word,

965
01:01:03,700 --> 01:01:07,000
but there were things that were very unhealthy for a software project

966
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:09,680
and I think that the smell, the tummy tests

967
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:11,860
passed less and less for people.

968
01:01:11,860 --> 01:01:20,320
So we got to the point where I think the up return was not by itself the issue,

969
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:24,240
but it was just maybe the final straw for a lot of people.

970
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:27,400
But that's hard to say because that's subjective.

971
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:34,280
Wasn't there a changing of the definition of up return that upset people also?

972
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:43,740
Yes, but all of this is all downstream from the complete change of guard in core.

973
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:50,620
The whole leadership and whose opinion had sway completely changed over the years.

974
01:01:51,340 --> 01:01:56,380
As all of the maintainers, except the most recently named one, stepped down.

975
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:02,080
And the most recently named one handpicked their person and then another person came and then another person came.

976
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:05,860
And the whole power structure changed.

977
01:02:06,420 --> 01:02:11,780
And there are things that I just don't recognize that are not core policy to me anymore that I see.

978
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:26,080
Just even this week, a pull request was merged, that the same unhealthy processes are still taking place where it's behind the scenes people coming together to...

979
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:29,260
It's not necessarily based on the right decisions for the code base or for the users.

980
01:02:29,260 --> 01:02:32,900
It comes down to friendships and cliques and connections.

981
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:35,140
And this person was this person's maintainer.

982
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:37,880
Sorry, this person mentored this person.

983
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:40,000
This person then mentored this person.

984
01:02:40,300 --> 01:02:42,320
And this person opened the Poet Quest with a bad change.

985
01:02:42,740 --> 01:02:44,040
I didn't agree with the change.

986
01:02:44,380 --> 01:02:45,680
But their mentor intervened.

987
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:47,560
And their mentor mentors intervened.

988
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:53,640
And the whole band gets together and socially pushes the change, in my opinion, in the wrong direction.

989
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:58,440
For example, a maintainer literally said in the Poet Quest merch this week,

990
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:01,220
well it doesn't matter

991
01:03:01,220 --> 01:03:03,280
if this breaks something because my objection

992
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:04,520
was that something was being broken

993
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:07,320
and there was no point in purposely breaking

994
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:08,820
something that we could with a one line

995
01:03:08,820 --> 01:03:10,580
additional complexity

996
01:03:10,580 --> 01:03:11,880
as they called it

997
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:14,240
keeping backwards

998
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:17,180
compatibility for which I believe

999
01:03:17,180 --> 01:03:18,960
is extremely important it was always the philosophy

1000
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:20,800
of Bitcoin that Bitcoin would always be backwards

1001
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:22,900
compatible as much as possible unless it was

1002
01:03:22,900 --> 01:03:23,460
an extremely

1003
01:03:23,460 --> 01:03:26,900
if there was in any way

1004
01:03:26,900 --> 01:03:32,980
easy to triple to avoid breaking, then why would you break it? It was clearly easy to avoid breaking

1005
01:03:32,980 --> 01:03:38,440
it. But the justification by the current, I would say, lead maintainer of Bitcoin Core,

1006
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:45,000
unofficially, certainly the most longest serving actual maintainer right now, was no,

1007
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:52,440
we, this would be breaking something more than two versions back. That's no longer supported by

1008
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:56,960
our security policy and we anyway do not want to encourage people to continue running old versions

1009
01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:02,780
of core so we should rather go ahead and break this thing to encourage people to upgrade to a

1010
01:04:02,780 --> 01:04:08,500
recent version of bitcoin core meaning v30 v31 and maybe still v29 for another few months but

1011
01:04:08,500 --> 01:04:15,220
as soon as v32 comes out then it's just v30 v30 or v32 my opinion is that that is no in no way

1012
01:04:15,220 --> 01:04:21,780
justification to break things that are truly easy to not break or they literally took the position

1013
01:04:21,780 --> 01:04:27,360
let's break it because we want to encourage users to upgrade and i think that is not consistent with

1014
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:34,580
the way core's philosophy was for a long time no to me it sounds completely anti-bitcoin ethos all

1015
01:04:34,580 --> 01:04:42,860
of it like the reason the reason i've got users yeah the reason they got to upgrade yeah no the

1016
01:04:42,860 --> 01:04:48,240
reason i fell in love with this in the first place was that it was hard to change like that's and that

1017
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:54,000
was backwards compatible to forever so you could the people who just stacked and waited for 100

1018
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:59,760
years would win in the end like that's the beauty of the system like that's the most crucial thing

1019
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:07,560
uh i i don't understand breaking things needlessly that are trivially easy to not break

1020
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:12,640
and in fact there was a version of the pull request that had listened to me that did not

1021
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:14,740
break anything and the

1022
01:05:14,740 --> 01:05:16,780
maintainer can go instead no no no there's

1023
01:05:16,780 --> 01:05:17,460
no reason to

1024
01:05:17,460 --> 01:05:20,820
we prefer to encourage

1025
01:05:20,820 --> 01:05:21,720
users to upgrade

1026
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:24,620
well you don't do that by

1027
01:05:24,620 --> 01:05:26,460
introducing breakage needless

1028
01:05:26,460 --> 01:05:28,140
even if it's minor

1029
01:05:28,140 --> 01:05:30,620
it was minor the fix was minor

1030
01:05:30,620 --> 01:05:32,760
and the breakage was minor but it's silly

1031
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:33,920
I don't understand that

1032
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,860
no and it sets a precedent

1033
01:05:36,860 --> 01:05:38,860
right for breaking more things

1034
01:05:38,860 --> 01:05:40,680
on and on over and over these actions

1035
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:41,500
when they accumulate

1036
01:05:41,500 --> 01:05:47,020
A, it looks almost like it's about social process.

1037
01:05:47,220 --> 01:05:48,840
Like, let's dunk on this guy again.

1038
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:51,660
Because I was more or less the code owner.

1039
01:05:51,820 --> 01:05:52,920
I had written that code.

1040
01:05:53,020 --> 01:05:55,020
I knew it as well as anybody because I had written it.

1041
01:05:55,180 --> 01:05:58,540
It was in an area of the code base where I was probably the primary author at this point.

1042
01:05:58,820 --> 01:06:00,540
All of my criticisms were overruled.

1043
01:06:02,420 --> 01:06:04,180
I mean, it's awful.

1044
01:06:06,260 --> 01:06:09,480
The PR in question is 26988.

1045
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:11,580
26988

1046
01:06:11,580 --> 01:06:12,400
yeah

1047
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:14,980
no

1048
01:06:14,980 --> 01:06:16,700
and

1049
01:06:16,700 --> 01:06:19,320
two people they didn't even review the code

1050
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:21,260
directly so much as they reviewed my review

1051
01:06:21,260 --> 01:06:22,240
in order to dunk on it

1052
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:24,780
it's so scary the things you're saying here

1053
01:06:24,780 --> 01:06:27,600
because like was it this easy to change the culture

1054
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:28,040
that's

1055
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:30,620
it's so depressing

1056
01:06:30,620 --> 01:06:32,640
that it's so easy to just

1057
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:34,240
it's group process

1058
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:36,020
it's group process

1059
01:06:36,020 --> 01:06:36,740
you know

1060
01:06:36,740 --> 01:06:41,320
the problem is if a bunch of friends get together and socially support each other

1061
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:48,680
mutually on review then you know and the people who were reviewing here weren't even habitual

1062
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:53,500
reviewers at this part of the code base but because one friend one person the author of the

1063
01:06:53,500 --> 01:06:58,060
pull request was mentored by someone who was mentored in turn by someone else and these people

1064
01:06:58,060 --> 01:07:06,260
sort of got the band together and um just for that change so so let me see this is i i made a

1065
01:07:06,260 --> 01:07:12,760
a thread like a month back or maybe two months back about the op return thing just to see if you

1066
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:17,980
agree with this framing because like what what i understand for the core argument was that

1067
01:07:17,980 --> 01:07:24,600
it would be better if they did this shit on op return than than anywhere else basically so

1068
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:29,500
therefore it's it's good to open the policy so it'd be easier to do that because it causes less

1069
01:07:29,500 --> 01:07:36,760
damage thing i got upset with and i think most people did was like this defeatist attitude that

1070
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:43,380
we we shouldn't actively try to stop the spam we should we should just make it less harmful and just

1071
01:07:43,380 --> 01:07:49,940
accept that it's there and and that change of attitude is is like uh to me that was the thing

1072
01:07:49,940 --> 01:07:57,840
because like yes if you live in a vacuum like in an all else being equal scenario uh you're right

1073
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:00,760
it would be better if they just shifted to op return.

1074
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,140
Four times more expensive for most of it,

1075
01:08:03,220 --> 01:08:07,200
but let's just say that every spammer was altruistic

1076
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:08,340
and put everything in op return.

1077
01:08:08,780 --> 01:08:12,220
So the problem with all else being equal scenarios

1078
01:08:12,220 --> 01:08:14,320
is that they don't exist in reality.

1079
01:08:15,380 --> 01:08:19,100
So sending a signal that this is something

1080
01:08:19,100 --> 01:08:22,560
that Bitcoin accommodates for

1081
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:24,380
and that Bitcoin is okay with,

1082
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:27,740
that I think pissed a lot of people off.

1083
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:30,820
but that was the, at least that's what pissed me off.

1084
01:08:30,820 --> 01:08:33,680
This is okay now for some reason.

1085
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:36,360
We shouldn't try to fight it.

1086
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:41,200
When these were clearly exploits and not monetary use cases,

1087
01:08:41,340 --> 01:08:42,100
what do you think of that?

1088
01:08:42,180 --> 01:08:45,320
Do you agree with that framing or would you frame it differently?

1089
01:08:47,660 --> 01:08:53,740
So I think Core, I understand Core's technical reasons for doing what they did.

1090
01:08:53,740 --> 01:09:01,060
I also understand the position that culture matters and signaling matters.

1091
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:05,540
And I sympathize with both arguments.

1092
01:09:05,740 --> 01:09:14,680
And there are times when I read, for example, there was a recent thread on Bitcoin slash meta where someone brought it up saying core could still fix the rift.

1093
01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:16,820
And a discussion ensued.

1094
01:09:17,180 --> 01:09:32,894
And there were times that I would agree with both the pro core and the opposite view because there are good points on both sides And I don see it as black and white I don see it as Cora right and the others are dumb shits

1095
01:09:32,894 --> 01:09:37,573
I don't see it as Cora is completely wrong either.

1096
01:09:38,373 --> 01:09:39,553
I think there's nuance.

1097
01:09:39,934 --> 01:09:41,894
I do worry about the shitcoinery.

1098
01:09:42,093 --> 01:09:44,333
I do worry deeply about spam.

1099
01:09:44,333 --> 01:10:00,354
I think one of the other most depressing period thing in Bitcoin Core, besides the DEI and the social click, power click processes, was the introduction of ordinals and the very high fees.

1100
01:10:00,593 --> 01:10:02,113
And it seemed like there was nothing we could do.

1101
01:10:02,533 --> 01:10:08,553
And I found that sound very depressing because it felt like Bitcoin was changing from underneath us all.

1102
01:10:08,673 --> 01:10:14,154
I don't understand, to be honest, how anyone could think that ordinals are good for Bitcoin.

1103
01:10:14,154 --> 01:10:22,014
apart from fee income perhaps but i think that's a short term way of thinking about it um yeah i'd

1104
01:10:22,014 --> 01:10:28,774
like i'd like your take on on on my take about the minor fees also because uh the way i see it

1105
01:10:28,774 --> 01:10:35,394
is all has to do with time preference right so so there's this narrative uh among the the shit

1106
01:10:35,394 --> 01:10:40,234
coins on bitcoin's camp that it's good for bitcoin because miners make more fees but to me

1107
01:10:40,234 --> 01:10:46,493
that's such a ridiculous argument because like we're on what are we now like if i go to bitbow

1108
01:10:46,493 --> 01:10:58,293
here uh 885 uh exahashes per second that's 885 followed by 18 zeros uh guesses on the correct

1109
01:10:58,293 --> 01:11:13,274
hash per second. If we lost 99 miners out of 100, Bitcoin would still be as secure anyway,

1110
01:11:13,373 --> 01:11:17,633
because it's like orders of magnitude more secure than it needs to be. And it's also like,

1111
01:11:17,693 --> 01:11:24,073
it's like believing that Bitcoin cannot go up in value more. If it doubles in value every four

1112
01:11:24,073 --> 01:11:25,713
years, the problem is not there.

1113
01:11:26,173 --> 01:11:32,814
And I believe if it can keep on being money, it will do that at least until everyone on

1114
01:11:32,814 --> 01:11:33,633
earth is on board.

1115
01:11:33,974 --> 01:11:40,494
I mean, it's such a weird argument because Bitcoin is not for the miners.

1116
01:11:40,494 --> 01:11:46,234
The miners get paid by the users to secure the network and create block space for them.

1117
01:11:46,994 --> 01:11:48,453
It's the other way around.

1118
01:11:48,633 --> 01:11:52,994
The miners should be the employees of the users of the network.

1119
01:11:54,073 --> 01:12:00,394
And so it's such a nothing burger argument, the fee argument.

1120
01:12:01,154 --> 01:12:02,553
Yeah, I tend to agree completely.

1121
01:12:02,713 --> 01:12:05,213
I mean, my focus is on users and people using it as money.

1122
01:12:05,854 --> 01:12:10,913
And I thought one of the dumbest things I actually saw tweeted of the past year was,

1123
01:12:10,913 --> 01:12:16,154
your note does not matter by someone who is trying to be clever, I guess.

1124
01:12:16,734 --> 01:12:16,873
Yeah.

1125
01:12:17,113 --> 01:12:21,494
But, you know, I placed the user first and foremost.

1126
01:12:21,494 --> 01:12:29,814
And at my Plan B talk, I gave a lot of suggestions on how I would, the guidelines for governance or leadership of an implementation, if it was me.

1127
01:12:30,734 --> 01:12:37,033
And I actually did have a private meeting recently with the new maintainer of CORE, Sebastian Kahn from South Africa.

1128
01:12:37,913 --> 01:12:43,014
And to my surprise, I believe that he and I agree on a lot of the things that we would like to see.

1129
01:12:43,014 --> 01:12:51,453
And we were both also inspired by the leadership style of Vladimir Vanderland, the lead maintainer for almost a decade of Bitcoin Core, who was an amazing leader of Bitcoin.

1130
01:12:52,153 --> 01:13:04,774
And, you know, when I say that I'm not into the woke stuff, that doesn't mean I'm criticizing, for instance, the transgender, the two transgender people, I believe, on Core are two of my favorite developers.

1131
01:13:05,753 --> 01:13:10,493
So, you know, it's not, I'm not against their choices.

1132
01:13:10,493 --> 01:13:13,833
I don't actually care if your hair color is blue.

1133
01:13:13,974 --> 01:13:18,093
No, and like, why would anyone care whoever they are?

1134
01:13:18,354 --> 01:13:22,553
If they have the merit, then like meritocracy is the most inclusive thing ever

1135
01:13:22,553 --> 01:13:27,173
because it doesn't care about your race or gender or sexual preferences.

1136
01:13:27,373 --> 01:13:32,753
As long as the playing field is fair and everyone sort of gets the same rules and treatment.

1137
01:13:33,593 --> 01:13:36,993
The thing that really gets my go maybe more than anything else,

1138
01:13:36,993 --> 01:13:39,493
and maybe this is the personal weakness of mine,

1139
01:13:39,493 --> 01:13:43,074
is I display deeply double standards.

1140
01:13:44,354 --> 01:13:46,574
I deeply, deeply, since a child,

1141
01:13:46,734 --> 01:13:47,753
display double standards.

1142
01:13:48,434 --> 01:13:48,713
Yes.

1143
01:13:49,713 --> 01:13:52,113
And probably the main thing I would want,

1144
01:13:52,113 --> 01:13:56,093
I would sigh for if I was running an implementation,

1145
01:13:56,673 --> 01:14:00,093
would be to try to diminish the double standards.

1146
01:14:01,093 --> 01:14:02,574
And no one's perfect.

1147
01:14:03,193 --> 01:14:04,253
I'll probably get it wrong.

1148
01:14:04,873 --> 01:14:07,373
And maybe as Bips maintainer, co-editor,

1149
01:14:07,793 --> 01:14:08,893
I've gotten it wrong.

1150
01:14:08,893 --> 01:14:10,593
But I really try to be fair.

1151
01:14:11,213 --> 01:14:12,393
At least it's important to me.

1152
01:14:12,873 --> 01:14:15,774
And I think that we've seen some really blatant double standards.

1153
01:14:16,774 --> 01:14:19,753
Yeah, but that's exactly what Bitcoin is about.

1154
01:14:20,253 --> 01:14:23,774
Like Bitcoin is about equality before the law.

1155
01:14:24,393 --> 01:14:30,373
If code is law or really just the network is law, whatever, sound money is law.

1156
01:14:30,713 --> 01:14:36,213
If we have fair money, then we have leveled the playing field and the same rules apply to everyone.

1157
01:14:36,393 --> 01:14:37,993
Like that's what Bitcoin is for.

1158
01:14:37,993 --> 01:14:39,453
it's exactly for that

1159
01:14:39,453 --> 01:14:42,393
it doesn't give a shit who you are

1160
01:14:42,393 --> 01:14:43,693
that's the whole point

1161
01:14:43,693 --> 01:14:46,753
so why would anyone give a shit

1162
01:14:46,753 --> 01:14:50,593
about the core maintainer's

1163
01:14:50,593 --> 01:14:52,133
gender or sexual organ

1164
01:14:52,133 --> 01:14:55,193
because in open source development

1165
01:14:55,193 --> 01:14:57,873
there is a thing

1166
01:14:57,873 --> 01:14:59,713
there is social capital

1167
01:14:59,713 --> 01:15:03,493
and even the readme

1168
01:15:03,493 --> 01:15:06,213
of the bitcoin core repository

1169
01:15:06,213 --> 01:15:07,314
says that

1170
01:15:07,993 --> 01:15:11,673
different people's opinion carries different weight

1171
01:15:11,673 --> 01:15:13,974
depending on their social capital and contribution

1172
01:15:13,974 --> 01:15:17,113
and amount of history with the project.

1173
01:15:17,854 --> 01:15:22,493
And so there is social capital, does matter.

1174
01:15:23,373 --> 01:15:24,514
Everyone is not equal.

1175
01:15:24,673 --> 01:15:27,173
And some acts carry more weight to maintainers

1176
01:15:27,173 --> 01:15:28,074
than other acts do.

1177
01:15:28,534 --> 01:15:30,873
That is how it works.

1178
01:15:31,574 --> 01:15:36,274
But I still think that there are other double standards

1179
01:15:36,274 --> 01:15:37,213
that really get to me.

1180
01:15:37,213 --> 01:15:45,814
And not that one, that some people's act might matter, carry more weight because they have more experience or they know the code better there.

1181
01:15:46,474 --> 01:15:47,633
That's fine with me.

1182
01:15:48,354 --> 01:15:59,153
But still, there's other kinds of double centers, like things that you cannot change about yourself, like your age or your gender or where you're from or how well you speak English.

1183
01:15:59,153 --> 01:16:01,193
if you learn English as a second language

1184
01:16:01,193 --> 01:16:04,014
and you say, hey guys, not knowing that

1185
01:16:04,014 --> 01:16:07,934
and having a U.S. person reply,

1186
01:16:08,093 --> 01:16:09,913
no, no, there's women present too.

1187
01:16:10,173 --> 01:16:10,974
That's a real example.

1188
01:16:11,093 --> 01:16:12,173
But that isn't a real example

1189
01:16:12,173 --> 01:16:14,453
that I saw a maintainer rebuke

1190
01:16:14,453 --> 01:16:16,213
a non-meaning speaking developer for.

1191
01:16:17,613 --> 01:16:19,833
I mean, you know,

1192
01:16:20,354 --> 01:16:25,274
I just would lighten up with the identity stuff.

1193
01:16:25,793 --> 01:16:27,574
I don't give a crap what your hair color is,

1194
01:16:27,633 --> 01:16:28,153
where you're from.

1195
01:16:28,153 --> 01:16:29,854
These things should not matter.

1196
01:16:30,373 --> 01:16:32,953
It should only matter how much time you spent working on the code

1197
01:16:32,953 --> 01:16:36,113
and reviewing it and your contribution to review

1198
01:16:36,113 --> 01:16:39,074
and how good your review work has been.

1199
01:16:39,993 --> 01:16:41,534
And just because you're hand-chosen,

1200
01:16:41,993 --> 01:16:45,734
but you've maybe reviewed several times less than someone else

1201
01:16:45,734 --> 01:16:47,173
that was not chosen doesn't mean...

1202
01:16:47,173 --> 01:16:48,993
You know, that's the kind of stuff that gets to me.

1203
01:16:49,474 --> 01:16:52,774
There's some really blatant unfair stuff that's taken place over the years,

1204
01:16:52,814 --> 01:16:53,854
and I really dislike that.

1205
01:16:54,593 --> 01:16:56,774
And, you know, that's criticizable,

1206
01:16:56,774 --> 01:16:58,253
and I'll probably be dunked on

1207
01:16:58,253 --> 01:16:59,633
harshly for saying that,

1208
01:16:59,713 --> 01:17:01,774
but that is something...

1209
01:17:02,913 --> 01:17:04,314
I know there's so many things

1210
01:17:04,314 --> 01:17:05,514
in my presentation at Plan B

1211
01:17:05,514 --> 01:17:06,253
that I didn't get to

1212
01:17:06,253 --> 01:17:07,613
that I could cover.

1213
01:17:08,193 --> 01:17:09,953
I was taken to tasks

1214
01:17:09,953 --> 01:17:10,693
about my comment

1215
01:17:10,693 --> 01:17:12,014
that was maybe not very,

1216
01:17:12,014 --> 01:17:13,893
very well said

1217
01:17:13,893 --> 01:17:15,873
about how bugs,

1218
01:17:16,354 --> 01:17:17,213
how you had to be careful

1219
01:17:17,213 --> 01:17:18,413
about reporting bugs in core

1220
01:17:18,413 --> 01:17:19,193
because it depended

1221
01:17:19,193 --> 01:17:20,274
who was the author of the bug

1222
01:17:20,274 --> 01:17:21,613
and how they would see

1223
01:17:21,613 --> 01:17:23,014
your relationship to them

1224
01:17:23,014 --> 01:17:23,934
if you reported the bug

1225
01:17:23,934 --> 01:17:25,953
because they could see your bug

1226
01:17:25,953 --> 01:17:28,734
as your bug report as getting a personal attack

1227
01:17:28,734 --> 01:17:29,693
rather than reporting a bug.

1228
01:17:30,893 --> 01:17:32,314
And that really does happen.

1229
01:17:33,534 --> 01:17:34,873
But that's awful.

1230
01:17:35,074 --> 01:17:37,133
You can't handle code like that.

1231
01:17:37,393 --> 01:17:38,413
Of course not.

1232
01:17:38,713 --> 01:17:40,833
That is how it happens.

1233
01:17:41,493 --> 01:17:42,434
I found a bug.

1234
01:17:42,613 --> 01:17:43,514
There's one example.

1235
01:17:44,474 --> 01:17:46,574
In 2021, in August,

1236
01:17:47,474 --> 01:17:51,354
I found a bug I reported on the IRC channel

1237
01:17:51,354 --> 01:17:53,493
and then I opened a fix.

1238
01:17:53,493 --> 01:17:59,753
And yeah, it was just, it was a complete shit show because I had found a bug written by someone who took it personally.

1239
01:18:00,693 --> 01:18:03,833
Who thought I was attacking them for finding a bug.

1240
01:18:04,974 --> 01:18:07,113
And the way it went down was very political and very sad.

1241
01:18:07,833 --> 01:18:11,854
It's the math is racist thing.

1242
01:18:12,693 --> 01:18:17,693
It was PloyQuest Bitcoin Core PR 22831.

1243
01:18:18,034 --> 01:18:21,354
And, you know, I was told, hey, it's not really a serious bug.

1244
01:18:21,434 --> 01:18:22,774
Don't make a big deal out of it.

1245
01:18:22,774 --> 01:18:29,814
And then I wasn't allowed to fix it because my fix, they didn't like the way I fixed it or they didn't like my tests to test it.

1246
01:18:29,893 --> 01:18:32,633
I introduced the test to verify that it wouldn't break again.

1247
01:18:32,633 --> 01:18:39,373
And a fix that didn't have any test coverage at all was preferred by the original author, who was very upset at me for finding that bubble.

1248
01:18:39,613 --> 01:18:41,173
And it's just one example of many.

1249
01:18:41,393 --> 01:18:43,314
And that kind of thing just makes me sad.

1250
01:18:44,193 --> 01:18:52,113
That just sounds like OCP, you know, the organization, the corporation that builds RoboCop.

1251
01:18:52,113 --> 01:18:53,974
if you remember the Robocop movie

1252
01:18:53,974 --> 01:18:56,034
and that guy who keeps defending

1253
01:18:56,034 --> 01:18:58,253
ED-209, the robot that doesn't work

1254
01:18:58,253 --> 01:18:59,653
and kills everyone

1255
01:18:59,653 --> 01:19:02,053
and he just refuses to fix the robot

1256
01:19:02,053 --> 01:19:03,553
that's what it sounds like to me

1257
01:19:03,553 --> 01:19:05,854
You know it's funny, I stopped watching

1258
01:19:05,854 --> 01:19:07,453
any kind of movie entirely

1259
01:19:07,453 --> 01:19:08,514
after COVID

1260
01:19:08,514 --> 01:19:12,113
Real life was so much stranger than fiction

1261
01:19:12,113 --> 01:19:13,514
Yeah, yeah, yeah

1262
01:19:13,514 --> 01:19:16,093
Robocop was a couple of years before COVID

1263
01:19:16,093 --> 01:19:18,453
Yeah, right

1264
01:19:18,453 --> 01:19:20,314
but the COVID thing

1265
01:19:20,314 --> 01:19:20,833
was a real

1266
01:19:20,833 --> 01:19:21,493
a real

1267
01:19:21,493 --> 01:19:25,493
it's like you also had a group of people

1268
01:19:25,493 --> 01:19:27,474
who could continue going from office to office

1269
01:19:27,474 --> 01:19:28,333
because they were

1270
01:19:28,333 --> 01:19:31,413
jabbed and boosted and those

1271
01:19:31,413 --> 01:19:33,314
who did not, who were not doing

1272
01:19:33,314 --> 01:19:35,474
testing and jabbing and boosting

1273
01:19:35,474 --> 01:19:37,534
for one or two years

1274
01:19:37,534 --> 01:19:39,253
could not visit the offices, could not

1275
01:19:39,253 --> 01:19:41,014
they were

1276
01:19:41,014 --> 01:19:43,493
during the core dev meetups, they were in separate

1277
01:19:43,493 --> 01:19:45,514
housing or separate meetings, I understand

1278
01:19:45,514 --> 01:19:46,493
I didn't even go

1279
01:19:46,493 --> 01:19:49,193
I mean, it really slipped core down

1280
01:19:49,193 --> 01:19:55,413
with the vast majority being in the camp of testing every day

1281
01:19:55,413 --> 01:19:59,734
and testing all the time and being up to date with boosters or MNR.

1282
01:20:00,133 --> 01:20:05,493
Yeah, this reminds me of a Free Cities conference I went to after COVID.

1283
01:20:05,774 --> 01:20:07,493
So it's the Free Cities Foundation, right?

1284
01:20:07,553 --> 01:20:10,653
So it's not really a Bitcoin conference, or not at all a Bitcoin conference.

1285
01:20:10,653 --> 01:20:13,074
It's about Prosperon Roatan, for instance.

1286
01:20:13,393 --> 01:20:16,854
That's one of the free private cities around the world.

1287
01:20:17,014 --> 01:20:18,294
They have this conference every year.

1288
01:20:18,294 --> 01:20:28,294
And at that conference, there's a Bitcoiner in the board of the organization who had invited a lot of his Bitcoiner friends.

1289
01:20:28,373 --> 01:20:30,953
I was there and Daniel Prince was there and a bunch of others.

1290
01:20:31,153 --> 01:20:35,193
But there were also Ethereans and shitcoiners.

1291
01:20:35,794 --> 01:20:40,074
And the funny thing is that they were still wearing masks, most of them.

1292
01:20:40,074 --> 01:20:43,993
So all the Bitcoiners were, of course, unjabbed and not wearing masks.

1293
01:20:43,993 --> 01:20:46,633
and the shitcoiners were concerned

1294
01:20:46,633 --> 01:20:49,734
about if people had boosters

1295
01:20:49,734 --> 01:20:50,613
and wearing masks.

1296
01:20:50,893 --> 01:20:52,854
And it was just an observation

1297
01:20:52,854 --> 01:20:54,993
that that was much more prominent

1298
01:20:54,993 --> 01:20:55,974
for shitcoiners.

1299
01:20:56,153 --> 01:20:57,034
There's something there.

1300
01:20:58,193 --> 01:20:58,574
Oh, yeah.

1301
01:20:59,294 --> 01:21:00,693
It made me very sad that,

1302
01:21:00,893 --> 01:21:01,953
I mean, I just stayed at home

1303
01:21:01,953 --> 01:21:02,893
and worked and was productive,

1304
01:21:03,274 --> 01:21:06,613
but it was a real shock to me

1305
01:21:06,613 --> 01:21:08,333
the first time I went to a Cordeaux

1306
01:21:08,333 --> 01:21:09,953
meeting finally in 2022.

1307
01:21:11,474 --> 01:21:13,153
A, how crazy,

1308
01:21:13,993 --> 01:21:16,113
how centralized interactions were.

1309
01:21:16,193 --> 01:21:16,794
Everybody seemed to,

1310
01:21:17,074 --> 01:21:17,833
most people in the room

1311
01:21:17,833 --> 01:21:18,633
seemed to be people

1312
01:21:18,633 --> 01:21:19,633
who were working together

1313
01:21:19,633 --> 01:21:20,413
every day in offices

1314
01:21:20,413 --> 01:21:21,113
and knew each other

1315
01:21:21,113 --> 01:21:22,213
like as if they were

1316
01:21:22,213 --> 01:21:22,934
in the same classroom.

1317
01:21:24,213 --> 01:21:24,393
You know,

1318
01:21:24,434 --> 01:21:24,934
and these were people

1319
01:21:24,934 --> 01:21:25,814
I almost never met.

1320
01:21:27,354 --> 01:21:28,173
And of course,

1321
01:21:28,253 --> 01:21:30,413
that very first and only core dev,

1322
01:21:30,693 --> 01:21:32,014
I got doxed to the FBI

1323
01:21:32,014 --> 01:21:33,713
because the FBI asked

1324
01:21:33,713 --> 01:21:36,113
the organizer of the core dev

1325
01:21:36,113 --> 01:21:37,113
for all the identity

1326
01:21:37,113 --> 01:21:37,814
of the participants

1327
01:21:37,814 --> 01:21:39,974
because of the reported theft

1328
01:21:39,974 --> 01:21:42,074
of Luke Doucher's Bitcoin.

1329
01:21:42,294 --> 01:21:43,274
If I heard somebody say

1330
01:21:43,274 --> 01:21:45,213
that Luke doxed everybody. That is false.

1331
01:21:45,213 --> 01:21:47,093
I believe it was the FBI

1332
01:21:47,093 --> 01:21:48,633
who requested the dox.

1333
01:21:49,474 --> 01:21:49,713
Yeah.

1334
01:21:51,354 --> 01:21:52,633
Speaking of Luke,

1335
01:21:53,574 --> 01:21:55,434
in April 2021,

1336
01:21:56,093 --> 01:21:57,434
there was a coordinated effort

1337
01:21:57,434 --> 01:21:59,234
on the Bitcoin dev mailing list to

1338
01:21:59,234 --> 01:22:01,413
remove Luke Dasher as a BIP editor.

1339
01:22:01,993 --> 01:22:03,314
A role he has had in 2012.

1340
01:22:04,113 --> 01:22:04,413
Yes.

1341
01:22:05,213 --> 01:22:06,613
There was. I was at that meeting.

1342
01:22:07,734 --> 01:22:08,913
Yeah. What happened?

1343
01:22:09,373 --> 01:22:10,514
Newberry was involved.

1344
01:22:10,653 --> 01:22:12,794
I know. Publish, we endorsed it.

1345
01:22:12,794 --> 01:22:20,093
I mean, in the private OpTec discussions, I mean, they were all vehemently anti-Luke for some time.

1346
01:22:20,333 --> 01:22:21,333
I don't think it's a secret.

1347
01:22:21,633 --> 01:22:26,574
It's public knowledge, I believe, that David Harding very much disliked Luke.

1348
01:22:26,753 --> 01:22:30,253
And he publicly tweeted that Luke was a net negative on the face.

1349
01:22:30,253 --> 01:22:42,093
And yeah, basically, I recall that I was there and Newberry called for Luke to be removed, I guess as well, by the project owners.

1350
01:22:42,794 --> 01:22:44,673
Who could have done that?

1351
01:22:45,113 --> 01:22:49,734
Well, Newberry called on the lead maintainer of Vladimir to do that during the meeting.

1352
01:22:49,734 --> 01:22:53,873
And it was an unpleasant and hostile exchange.

1353
01:22:54,354 --> 01:22:58,053
And afterwards, I remember Vladimir refusing to do so.

1354
01:22:58,234 --> 01:23:03,453
One thing I always respected about Vladimir was that he was a reluctant servant leader.

1355
01:23:03,833 --> 01:23:08,633
He was reluctant to use or abuse his power to satisfy someone.

1356
01:23:08,633 --> 01:23:27,427
And he did not give John Newberry satisfaction in calling for Lutte literally And afterwards I did have a conversation privately with Vladimir where I said that was intense And he says I don know why he was so aggressive with me but he was dumbfounded I think and a bit tired by the whole thing

1357
01:23:27,707 --> 01:23:29,527
When did you say that was? In July 2021?

1358
01:23:29,767 --> 01:23:30,907
No, April 2021.

1359
01:23:31,867 --> 01:23:37,507
Okay, well, shortly after, in June 2021, there was an equally aggressive exchange.

1360
01:23:37,507 --> 01:23:40,427
after the pull request that changed my trajectory on core,

1361
01:23:41,027 --> 01:23:43,987
John Newberry on the IRC channel

1362
01:23:43,987 --> 01:23:48,407
more or less went after myself and Vasil Dimov and Vladimir again.

1363
01:23:49,527 --> 01:23:52,267
And Vladimir got tired of it,

1364
01:23:52,307 --> 01:23:54,967
and he basically signed off IRC for two or three days.

1365
01:23:55,627 --> 01:23:56,867
He disappeared. He's like, I'm done.

1366
01:23:58,207 --> 01:23:59,867
And I was wondering how long until he would come back,

1367
01:23:59,907 --> 01:24:01,887
because usually he was always present.

1368
01:24:02,627 --> 01:24:06,607
But the aggression was coming to a head around that time.

1369
01:24:07,507 --> 01:24:11,907
I think the peak, things are maybe a little bit better now.

1370
01:24:12,547 --> 01:24:16,547
Every now and then, the power clip is to get the band together again

1371
01:24:16,547 --> 01:24:18,947
to do something not so cool.

1372
01:24:19,407 --> 01:24:20,727
It's slightly improving.

1373
01:24:20,927 --> 01:24:24,787
Like Giacomo talked with Walker on a podcast a day or two ago

1374
01:24:24,787 --> 01:24:28,407
where Giacomo said the DEI thing seems to be fading.

1375
01:24:29,247 --> 01:24:33,967
Well, if it's dying a slow death, it's a very slow death in court.

1376
01:24:33,967 --> 01:24:43,387
um and di well i don't know i might be misusing the word woke but i mean it's going to take time

1377
01:24:43,387 --> 01:24:47,827
there's there's at least three key people i think that would still need to leave before

1378
01:24:47,827 --> 01:24:54,067
things would really change three or four and uh i don't know how long that will take

1379
01:24:54,067 --> 01:24:58,387
to be honest i've been waiting for a very long time for things to improve i

1380
01:24:58,387 --> 01:25:03,387
i believe the shift has sailed on my ability to contribute effectively now to bitcoin core

1381
01:25:03,387 --> 01:25:05,907
since years, because basically since 2021,

1382
01:25:06,807 --> 01:25:08,187
my ability was affected.

1383
01:25:09,547 --> 01:25:13,907
And so I believe, like some other people,

1384
01:25:13,987 --> 01:25:15,967
that we do need more implementations

1385
01:25:15,967 --> 01:25:19,967
to welcome developers who are perhaps not in the...

1386
01:25:21,627 --> 01:25:23,787
who don't have the same politics

1387
01:25:23,787 --> 01:25:26,807
as the ones in Bitcoin Core

1388
01:25:26,807 --> 01:25:29,307
or who are not socially popular

1389
01:25:29,307 --> 01:25:32,407
or who just disagree on views on things.

1390
01:25:33,387 --> 01:25:39,027
Right now, it seems to be very much dominated by Chaincode and Brink and a bit by Spyro.

1391
01:25:40,687 --> 01:25:42,807
And local hosts now as well, which is a newer one.

1392
01:25:43,327 --> 01:25:58,067
I mean, one of the things that worries me is I've seen a few cases of people who I thought were very nice get hired by Chaincode, move to New York City, and change fairly significantly during their time in New York.

1393
01:25:58,787 --> 01:26:00,027
Become much less pleasant.

1394
01:26:00,167 --> 01:26:02,147
And I don't know what goes on.

1395
01:26:02,147 --> 01:26:05,567
But I've seen that multiple times now

1396
01:26:05,567 --> 01:26:06,567
And I have to wonder

1397
01:26:06,567 --> 01:26:08,007
Why are these people changing?

1398
01:26:09,847 --> 01:26:11,507
Yeah, you would like to know

1399
01:26:11,507 --> 01:26:15,087
The underlying mechanisms

1400
01:26:15,087 --> 01:26:16,787
That makes this happen

1401
01:26:16,787 --> 01:26:19,927
Because even if woke is temporarily dead

1402
01:26:19,927 --> 01:26:22,687
How do you make it not come back ever?

1403
01:26:22,887 --> 01:26:23,727
What's the cure?

1404
01:26:24,407 --> 01:26:25,267
And when I say they changed

1405
01:26:25,267 --> 01:26:26,547
I don't mean they became woke

1406
01:26:26,547 --> 01:26:28,167
But I mean they maybe became

1407
01:26:28,167 --> 01:26:29,607
Much more aggressive

1408
01:26:29,607 --> 01:26:31,587
Arrogant maybe?

1409
01:26:31,587 --> 01:26:41,327
I start seeing them aggressively tweeting on Twitter very aggressively, being very sensitive to replies and not letting things go.

1410
01:26:41,327 --> 01:26:47,427
And just being, on the whole, much less pleasant people.

1411
01:26:47,687 --> 01:26:58,587
And I don't know what happens if it's them being in contact with somebody specifically or with the group in general or if it's the environment of New York City, maybe New York is a place where people are more aggressive.

1412
01:26:58,587 --> 01:27:00,307
but wow

1413
01:27:00,307 --> 01:27:02,967
I mean I know several people I've discussed this with

1414
01:27:02,967 --> 01:27:04,747
they say yeah that person was a nice guy

1415
01:27:04,747 --> 01:27:05,947
and they went to chain code labs

1416
01:27:05,947 --> 01:27:08,867
and don't recognize them anymore

1417
01:27:08,867 --> 01:27:10,767
So you

1418
01:27:10,767 --> 01:27:13,047
talked about more implementation

1419
01:27:13,047 --> 01:27:15,027
so the natural

1420
01:27:15,027 --> 01:27:17,027
question there is why not NOTs

1421
01:27:17,027 --> 01:27:18,587
then? Like why not just

1422
01:27:18,587 --> 01:27:20,967
what's wrong

1423
01:27:20,967 --> 01:27:21,487
with NOTs?

1424
01:27:22,847 --> 01:27:25,127
The problem, I don't want to say there's a problem

1425
01:27:25,127 --> 01:27:27,027
with NOTs but for instance I did mention

1426
01:27:27,027 --> 01:27:29,107
that OpenSaaS has been willing to fund

1427
01:27:29,107 --> 01:27:30,947
Knots for some time. There are

1428
01:27:30,947 --> 01:27:33,067
public posts on X by people

1429
01:27:33,067 --> 01:27:35,227
like NBK or

1430
01:27:35,227 --> 01:27:36,987
maybe Matt O'Dell, I'm not sure,

1431
01:27:37,447 --> 01:27:39,107
on Knotser. But the problem

1432
01:27:39,107 --> 01:27:40,947
is, my understanding is that they haven't actually

1433
01:27:40,947 --> 01:27:42,787
received a good application yet.

1434
01:27:43,747 --> 01:27:44,487
So Knots

1435
01:27:44,487 --> 01:27:46,547
maybe is having trouble attracting

1436
01:27:46,547 --> 01:27:48,907
developer talent. And that could be

1437
01:27:48,907 --> 01:27:51,147
due to Luke being...

1438
01:27:51,147 --> 01:27:52,887
Look, I consider Luke a friend. I think Luke

1439
01:27:52,887 --> 01:27:54,887
is very gentle and soft-spoken in person.

1440
01:27:55,507 --> 01:27:56,627
Much nicer in person

1441
01:27:56,627 --> 01:27:58,107
very nice in person

1442
01:27:58,107 --> 01:28:00,367
compared to the persona

1443
01:28:00,367 --> 01:28:02,687
people might imagine when they just

1444
01:28:02,687 --> 01:28:04,987
read only the posts on X

1445
01:28:04,987 --> 01:28:06,767
but maybe not the easiest person

1446
01:28:06,767 --> 01:28:08,127
to work with

1447
01:28:08,127 --> 01:28:11,387
and I don't want to be criticizing of Luke

1448
01:28:11,387 --> 01:28:12,347
I like Luke

1449
01:28:12,347 --> 01:28:14,747
but there's also a lot of

1450
01:28:14,747 --> 01:28:17,167
social, it looks very much

1451
01:28:17,167 --> 01:28:18,507
like Luke's project to people

1452
01:28:18,507 --> 01:28:19,947
so maybe that's part of the difficulty

1453
01:28:19,947 --> 01:28:21,107
like a personal project

1454
01:28:21,107 --> 01:28:24,107
I think that the fact that

1455
01:28:24,107 --> 01:28:27,007
Nots has gained so much market share.

1456
01:28:27,727 --> 01:28:29,567
I mean, how many Nots nodes do I have right now?

1457
01:28:29,767 --> 01:28:32,387
Around 20%, right?

1458
01:28:33,087 --> 01:28:38,127
My node right now has like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Nots spheres,

1459
01:28:38,607 --> 01:28:41,227
at least with Nots in the subversion,

1460
01:28:42,007 --> 01:28:46,967
out of around 12, 15% in my personal node at this moment,

1461
01:28:47,067 --> 01:28:47,667
but it varies.

1462
01:28:48,627 --> 01:28:50,587
So Nots has gained market share.

1463
01:28:50,587 --> 01:28:52,027
I think not so much because

1464
01:28:52,027 --> 01:28:54,167
I think it's more because of Core.

1465
01:28:55,447 --> 01:28:57,507
Core has been the best marketing for Nots.

1466
01:28:58,567 --> 01:29:00,847
And not Core altogether,

1467
01:29:01,087 --> 01:29:03,967
but I would say two or three people

1468
01:29:03,967 --> 01:29:06,747
behaving like absolute assholes

1469
01:29:06,747 --> 01:29:09,587
for Core on Twitter or X.

1470
01:29:10,307 --> 01:29:12,007
I think they're doing great marketing.

1471
01:29:12,267 --> 01:29:15,067
I mean, okay, Nots has much better memes.

1472
01:29:15,967 --> 01:29:17,667
I'm not on the Nots side,

1473
01:29:17,767 --> 01:29:19,467
but Nots definitely memes much better.

1474
01:29:19,467 --> 01:29:23,347
There are some core devs who want to be memers who cannot meme.

1475
01:29:23,367 --> 01:29:25,947
What's the main reason that you're not on the Nuts side then?

1476
01:29:26,247 --> 01:29:27,767
Is there a technical reason?

1477
01:29:28,627 --> 01:29:31,687
I mean, look, I consider Luke a friend.

1478
01:29:32,787 --> 01:29:39,227
And I believe that they would be very happy if I would dedicate my time to contributing to Nuts.

1479
01:29:39,947 --> 01:29:47,047
But I believe that I'm not quite fully on board with the way Luke sees everything.

1480
01:29:47,047 --> 01:29:50,867
similar to the way that Giacomo is not fully on board

1481
01:29:50,867 --> 01:29:54,547
and I believe that Bit.1.10

1482
01:29:54,547 --> 01:29:57,967
is not quite what I think needs to be done

1483
01:29:57,967 --> 01:30:02,567
I would be more comfortable working on

1484
01:30:02,567 --> 01:30:06,647
or perhaps co-maintaining a fork of core

1485
01:30:06,647 --> 01:30:09,347
with perhaps different

1486
01:30:09,347 --> 01:30:11,607
types of developers

1487
01:30:11,607 --> 01:30:15,407
maybe more older, maybe not in the big cities

1488
01:30:15,407 --> 01:30:27,987
Maybe more Bitcoin is money people who are married, who are mature, who have kids and responsibilities and who are not leading with their youthful ambition and ego to make changes to Bitcoin.

1489
01:30:29,087 --> 01:30:39,427
Maybe a bit more of a conservative, slower, maybe it would pull in some things that Core is doing, but maybe more slowly, conservatively with a bit more another review layer.

1490
01:30:39,427 --> 01:30:49,287
I think we do need another implementation that is for developers who don't fit into the current core mold that has been engineered.

1491
01:30:49,287 --> 01:31:08,307
All right. Yeah. I mean, Luke is a very special person and I don't agree with a lot of his views, but I do agree with most of his views on Bitcoin. And I do think that he's a very trustworthy guy or a guy that holds integrity very high.

1492
01:31:08,307 --> 01:31:21,987
Absolutely. And even Adam Back was tweeted a couple of years ago, I believe, that you should be very careful if you find yourself disagreeing with Luke on something.

1493
01:31:22,207 --> 01:31:22,627
Exactly.

1494
01:31:23,827 --> 01:31:24,907
Luke has been right.

1495
01:31:25,907 --> 01:31:34,707
Yeah. And for that reason alone, I find this like pushing him out of court to be such a, like, what are you doing?

1496
01:31:34,707 --> 01:31:39,867
Like, this is your most senior guy, like one of the most important people for Bitcoin ever.

1497
01:31:40,327 --> 01:31:42,267
Like, everyone agrees on that.

1498
01:31:42,367 --> 01:31:43,747
So it's like, how can you get to that?

1499
01:31:43,807 --> 01:31:51,507
Yeah, his class of 2011, along with Vladimir Vanderland, Peter Wille and Matt Corral.

1500
01:31:51,627 --> 01:31:52,567
These four people.

1501
01:31:53,327 --> 01:31:54,767
And I think Luke was the first.

1502
01:31:56,247 --> 01:31:58,147
At least he was among the class of 2011.

1503
01:31:58,147 --> 01:32:01,727
he hasn't been that active

1504
01:32:01,727 --> 01:32:04,147
on Core over the past half decade

1505
01:32:04,147 --> 01:32:06,307
because he's also been busy working on

1506
01:32:06,307 --> 01:32:06,747
Nuts

1507
01:32:06,747 --> 01:32:09,187
Ocean Mining

1508
01:32:09,187 --> 01:32:11,607
Datum, he's got a lot on his plate

1509
01:32:11,607 --> 01:32:13,467
right, and that's why he also

1510
01:32:13,467 --> 01:32:14,987
Bips maintainer, Bips editor

1511
01:32:14,987 --> 01:32:17,707
he's the OG Bips editor

1512
01:32:17,707 --> 01:32:20,107
since 2015

1513
01:32:20,107 --> 01:32:20,927
I believe

1514
01:32:20,927 --> 01:32:23,267
yeah, and to be clear

1515
01:32:23,267 --> 01:32:25,607
I'm pro Nuts and I'm pro

1516
01:32:25,607 --> 01:32:27,827
Bip 110, I've stated

1517
01:32:27,827 --> 01:32:37,427
so publicly uh mostly for the the the middle finger of it all i i i uh i admit that i have

1518
01:32:37,427 --> 01:32:43,547
no problem with you know in hindsight if it doesn't work or if if it becomes a nothing burger

1519
01:32:43,547 --> 01:32:49,287
that i risk my reputation or anything like that i'm passionate about bitcoin and i'm passionate

1520
01:32:49,287 --> 01:32:54,067
about what i think is best for bitcoin and that's that's why i want to send a message

1521
01:32:54,067 --> 01:32:57,607
a temporary message that we won't take this.

1522
01:32:57,767 --> 01:32:59,807
We're not going to take it, the twisted sister thing.

1523
01:33:00,367 --> 01:33:05,767
But having said all that, I still think the more important thing there is that.

1524
01:33:05,767 --> 01:33:06,887
Twisted sister, yeah, that's good.

1525
01:33:06,887 --> 01:33:13,667
The more important thing there is datum and fixing the centralization of mining.

1526
01:33:14,207 --> 01:33:15,687
Decentralizing mining, absolutely.

1527
01:33:15,907 --> 01:33:19,047
That's paramount. That's the big one.

1528
01:33:19,047 --> 01:33:22,247
and it sort of gets overshadowed

1529
01:33:22,247 --> 01:33:25,787
by this other debate, of course.

1530
01:33:26,627 --> 01:33:28,327
Well, I think a lot of plebs

1531
01:33:28,327 --> 01:33:29,207
that are on board with you,

1532
01:33:29,547 --> 01:33:32,827
they're unhappy with the new core

1533
01:33:32,827 --> 01:33:34,587
that was, let's say,

1534
01:33:34,667 --> 01:33:35,767
socially engineered a bit

1535
01:33:35,767 --> 01:33:36,927
by the selection criteria

1536
01:33:36,927 --> 01:33:38,547
of the developer pipeline

1537
01:33:38,547 --> 01:33:40,027
centralized in chain code labs

1538
01:33:40,027 --> 01:33:41,927
developed by a very small,

1539
01:33:42,387 --> 01:33:43,787
less than a handful of people.

1540
01:33:44,807 --> 01:33:46,307
And that has led to a situation

1541
01:33:46,307 --> 01:33:48,407
where the plebs feel very alienated

1542
01:33:48,407 --> 01:34:06,607
And there's definitely a chasm between the new core, maybe not the new maintainer, but some of the loudest voices of the past two years in core has definitely been a complete chasm with the users due to the selection criteria being centralized and so on.

1543
01:34:07,927 --> 01:34:13,587
Of course, all that is heavily criticizable and I'll surely be dunked on very harshly for what I've just said.

1544
01:34:13,587 --> 01:34:16,567
But it's still a fact

1545
01:34:16,567 --> 01:34:18,707
You re-prop what you saw

1546
01:34:18,707 --> 01:34:20,467
When it comes to your criteria

1547
01:34:20,467 --> 01:34:22,167
Of selection for your new developers

1548
01:34:22,167 --> 01:34:24,227
And Core has also faced

1549
01:34:24,227 --> 01:34:25,967
A shortage of new talent lately

1550
01:34:25,967 --> 01:34:30,487
They've had trouble recruiting new people

1551
01:34:30,487 --> 01:34:31,007
To Core

1552
01:34:31,007 --> 01:34:33,187
Yeah

1553
01:34:33,187 --> 01:34:36,007
So I mean there are knock-on effects

1554
01:34:36,007 --> 01:34:37,387
When you go woke

1555
01:34:37,387 --> 01:34:39,927
I mean I'm not saying that Core

1556
01:34:39,927 --> 01:34:42,087
When you know they say you go woke

1557
01:34:42,087 --> 01:34:42,447
Go broke

1558
01:34:42,447 --> 01:34:50,347
Well, I think right now it's not so much in fashion as it was back in 2020, 2018, 2019, when the blue map was calling for diversity.

1559
01:34:51,487 --> 01:34:53,667
And behind the scenes core is still that way.

1560
01:34:53,747 --> 01:34:59,147
They're still reaching out and looking for certain profiles and identifying and tapping people to be chosen.

1561
01:34:59,727 --> 01:35:09,827
Whereas people who might be Bitcoin actually aren't necessarily the profile that the chain code that people are reaching out to and looking for.

1562
01:35:09,827 --> 01:35:09,967
No.

1563
01:35:09,967 --> 01:35:11,887
And it's been that way since a long time.

1564
01:35:12,447 --> 01:35:12,727
Yeah.

1565
01:35:13,787 --> 01:35:16,227
No, it's a mess.

1566
01:35:17,727 --> 01:35:23,867
Well, it just means we just need another, probably another implementation, which is way easier said than done.

1567
01:35:24,007 --> 01:35:25,327
And that's why we don't have one.

1568
01:35:25,367 --> 01:35:26,367
And now we're in the bear market.

1569
01:35:26,487 --> 01:35:29,387
So funding might be a little tougher than it would have been six months ago.

1570
01:35:29,667 --> 01:35:31,287
But yeah, Giacomo evoked it.

1571
01:35:31,367 --> 01:35:32,527
I believe we need one.

1572
01:35:32,527 --> 01:35:37,127
We need a place for people who don't fit into the current Bitcoin core hold.

1573
01:35:38,067 --> 01:35:39,907
Now, it's not a uni mold.

1574
01:35:40,387 --> 01:35:41,867
There are very good people in core.

1575
01:35:41,867 --> 01:35:44,587
I believe that currently

1576
01:35:44,587 --> 01:35:48,367
I like all of the maintainers in Core right now

1577
01:35:48,367 --> 01:35:48,947
Except one

1578
01:35:48,947 --> 01:35:51,127
I think they have very good maintainers

1579
01:35:51,127 --> 01:35:52,907
There's just one who I know is hostile

1580
01:35:52,907 --> 01:35:56,247
And you know Core could come around

1581
01:35:56,247 --> 01:35:57,127
And I hope they do

1582
01:35:57,127 --> 01:35:59,187
My goal is not to punch down on Core

1583
01:35:59,187 --> 01:36:01,187
The way Core has sometimes punched down on me

1584
01:36:01,187 --> 01:36:03,607
My goal is to help improve Bitcoin

1585
01:36:03,607 --> 01:36:04,747
I'm on team Bitcoin

1586
01:36:04,747 --> 01:36:09,007
No and of course that would be preferable

1587
01:36:09,007 --> 01:36:11,047
But aren't we beyond that point?

1588
01:36:11,867 --> 01:36:17,147
Well, it does seem like the ship has failed, but, you know, never seen ever.

1589
01:36:18,387 --> 01:36:21,647
No, because they did put this on themselves.

1590
01:36:21,847 --> 01:36:31,267
Would you agree with that, that BIP-110 wouldn't exist had Core not meddled with the policies and made decisions that nobody liked?

1591
01:36:31,887 --> 01:36:36,527
I think that they were not deft in the way they did their change.

1592
01:36:36,527 --> 01:36:43,787
And I think that that change alone would not have caused the issue that it did if they had not been losing trust over years.

1593
01:36:44,847 --> 01:36:46,627
I think it was a cumulative action.

1594
01:36:47,067 --> 01:36:51,907
Yeah, so it was the straw that broke the camel's back or whatever it's called.

1595
01:36:52,027 --> 01:36:53,167
Yes, that's right.

1596
01:36:54,387 --> 01:37:05,807
But still, that it was the straw that would break the camel's back, it seemed so obvious that if you do this, there will be consequences.

1597
01:37:05,807 --> 01:37:24,860
Right To you and to me yes but not to my colleagues No but to Bitcoin If now the change was made to make spam a little less destructive

1598
01:37:25,420 --> 01:37:27,000
and people didn't agree with that,

1599
01:37:27,440 --> 01:37:30,320
then they're taking one thing for granted,

1600
01:37:30,600 --> 01:37:34,740
but they're only seeing one chess move ahead and not two.

1601
01:37:34,740 --> 01:37:38,260
If this leads to that, then that's a worse outcome.

1602
01:37:38,700 --> 01:37:40,860
If you're taking this utilitarian approach,

1603
01:37:41,520 --> 01:37:43,140
why can't you have a lower time preference

1604
01:37:43,140 --> 01:37:44,980
and see a little further into the future

1605
01:37:44,980 --> 01:37:47,280
that this will trigger side effects

1606
01:37:47,280 --> 01:37:51,180
that are even worse than what you're proposing

1607
01:37:51,180 --> 01:37:52,960
from the core perspective?

1608
01:37:53,100 --> 01:37:55,180
Because I don't think anyone in core

1609
01:37:55,180 --> 01:37:58,260
likes that BIP-110 is now on the table

1610
01:37:58,260 --> 01:38:01,320
and there's a risk that it will happen.

1611
01:38:01,320 --> 01:38:05,440
I think it's a byproduct of the social process.

1612
01:38:05,620 --> 01:38:13,600
When the main decision-making is taking place over a lunch discussion in an office in New York City or London,

1613
01:38:14,880 --> 01:38:24,180
then you're not going to probably come to the same decision as someone who is interacting much more with the clips.

1614
01:38:24,760 --> 01:38:30,080
I believe that there is an environmental factor involved, where they're all sitting around between themselves.

1615
01:38:30,080 --> 01:38:32,960
and when I was visiting Chaincode Labs

1616
01:38:32,960 --> 01:38:34,940
there was definitely an elitism

1617
01:38:34,940 --> 01:38:37,400
there's an absolute elitism going on

1618
01:38:37,400 --> 01:38:39,080
and that's

1619
01:38:39,080 --> 01:38:41,280
I think that's a biotic of the social process

1620
01:38:41,280 --> 01:38:43,480
like I'm here

1621
01:38:43,480 --> 01:38:45,640
in El Salvador, who do I meet in El Salvador?

1622
01:38:46,120 --> 01:38:46,860
I meet players

1623
01:38:46,860 --> 01:38:49,260
who comes to El Salvador?

1624
01:38:49,940 --> 01:38:50,420
I mean

1625
01:38:50,420 --> 01:38:53,500
yeah, every now and then

1626
01:38:53,500 --> 01:38:55,120
you know, you come or Luke comes

1627
01:38:55,120 --> 01:38:57,600
or Giacomo comes or Peter Todd comes

1628
01:38:57,600 --> 01:38:58,980
those are probably the main

1629
01:38:58,980 --> 01:39:00,600
the main developers I see here.

1630
01:39:00,780 --> 01:39:02,160
I saw Merch here once,

1631
01:39:02,520 --> 01:39:04,920
and Merch takes a lot of crap

1632
01:39:04,920 --> 01:39:06,100
for his

1633
01:39:06,100 --> 01:39:09,060
core, his argumentation

1634
01:39:09,060 --> 01:39:10,720
for core, but Merch is someone

1635
01:39:10,720 --> 01:39:12,900
who I like very much and get along with. I have a lot

1636
01:39:12,900 --> 01:39:13,760
of respect for Merch.

1637
01:39:15,320 --> 01:39:16,980
He's someone I can discuss with.

1638
01:39:17,260 --> 01:39:18,820
We've had calls where I've talked about

1639
01:39:18,820 --> 01:39:20,940
and had heart-to-heart talks with Merch.

1640
01:39:21,600 --> 01:39:23,100
So, you know, one day

1641
01:39:23,100 --> 01:39:24,840
Merch is getting heat for

1642
01:39:24,840 --> 01:39:27,040
defending the

1643
01:39:27,040 --> 01:39:28,840
core position. One day I'm getting heat for

1644
01:39:28,840 --> 01:39:34,300
closing the cat. We all have our days of heat, but there are some very good people in Cora. I'm not

1645
01:39:34,300 --> 01:39:41,020
criticizing. I would say 90% of people in Cora I like very much. It's not that they are all woke.

1646
01:39:41,020 --> 01:39:48,040
It's just that there was an element that sort of took it over in a way. And it's not just the

1647
01:39:48,040 --> 01:39:52,720
developers, it's also the handlers, the people in the offices who are sort of deciding things like,

1648
01:39:53,180 --> 01:39:57,860
who will we hire into our office? Who's going to get funding? And I said that as someone who also

1649
01:39:57,860 --> 01:40:00,000
influences funding decisions since about

1650
01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:02,080
a year, I help

1651
01:40:02,080 --> 01:40:03,440
OpenStats review applications.

1652
01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:05,940
But I'm just one opinion on

1653
01:40:05,940 --> 01:40:07,960
a subcommittee or two.

1654
01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:10,080
So I'm not the

1655
01:40:10,080 --> 01:40:11,600
head of, you know,

1656
01:40:11,800 --> 01:40:13,940
Brink or Chaincode or local hosts.

1657
01:40:15,080 --> 01:40:15,600
But

1658
01:40:15,600 --> 01:40:18,040
I think it's good to diversify the funding

1659
01:40:18,040 --> 01:40:20,220
organizations and I think it's good to diversify

1660
01:40:20,220 --> 01:40:21,220
the implementations

1661
01:40:21,220 --> 01:40:24,000
so that there's a space for different people

1662
01:40:24,000 --> 01:40:26,100
to feel welcome. We have to deal

1663
01:40:26,100 --> 01:40:27,380
with the fact that Bitcoin is

1664
01:40:27,860 --> 01:40:32,880
on a collision course with a vast number of normies and with Wall Street and with politics.

1665
01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:41,420
And that is responsible probably for a lot of the narratives that we see nowadays that are not Bitcoin is money or supportive of Bitcoin is money.

1666
01:40:41,420 --> 01:40:47,460
But I hope that we can still come around because I do want to use Bitcoin primarily as money.

1667
01:40:47,760 --> 01:40:50,500
And in my node, I don't want to store a bunch of other people's spam.

1668
01:40:51,780 --> 01:40:56,760
And if your node runner seems like you naturally don't want to unless you have a limited bandwidth and resources,

1669
01:40:56,760 --> 01:41:01,220
I did have to start turning my note at one time on my laptop because it only had one terabyte of SSD.

1670
01:41:01,940 --> 01:41:02,960
That's not enough nowadays.

1671
01:41:04,840 --> 01:41:07,020
No, and this is a forever problem.

1672
01:41:07,240 --> 01:41:14,100
And that's why I'm so, one of the main reasons why I hate it so much is like, it's, what do you call it?

1673
01:41:14,180 --> 01:41:15,720
Like they're squatters.

1674
01:41:17,540 --> 01:41:19,980
Yeah, it's a free rider problem.

1675
01:41:20,460 --> 01:41:21,280
Yeah, exactly.

1676
01:41:21,280 --> 01:41:26,740
it's the problem of abuse of pissing on the common to make money for your your stakeholders

1677
01:41:26,740 --> 01:41:34,040
and that's not bitcoin to me you know human nature people get into bitcoin initially about greed

1678
01:41:34,040 --> 01:41:39,880
no no no not make not make money for your shareholders make fiat for your shareholders

1679
01:41:39,880 --> 01:41:44,960
and that's the saddest part they're not making actual money and this is the this is the

1680
01:41:44,960 --> 01:41:50,480
ah it drives me mad like here you have the best fucking thing in the world that can benefit

1681
01:41:50,480 --> 01:41:56,700
everyone on earth forever and you and you choose so like no i'm i'm gonna be i'm gonna be that guy

1682
01:41:56,700 --> 01:42:01,960
from the matrix who chooses the stake instead yeah but making fiat money that's the gate that's the

1683
01:42:01,960 --> 01:42:06,460
entry gate i mean when i made friends with the police that the neighbor tried to have me arrested

1684
01:42:06,460 --> 01:42:12,400
by what they wanted to know was like the same as everybody else so tell us how we can make

1685
01:42:12,400 --> 01:42:13,920
make more dollars with Bitcoin.

1686
01:42:15,260 --> 01:42:16,540
Yeah, and it's so sad

1687
01:42:16,540 --> 01:42:19,760
because this is the tool to...

1688
01:42:19,760 --> 01:42:21,620
They're all having tough lives

1689
01:42:21,620 --> 01:42:22,920
because of fiat.

1690
01:42:23,100 --> 01:42:24,560
So everyone's life is tough

1691
01:42:24,560 --> 01:42:26,620
because of the fiat monetary system.

1692
01:42:26,940 --> 01:42:27,780
This is so fixed.

1693
01:42:27,780 --> 01:42:29,180
So few people see that, right?

1694
01:42:29,280 --> 01:42:30,600
People, they're busy with their lives.

1695
01:42:30,860 --> 01:42:32,240
They're not like you and me,

1696
01:42:32,320 --> 01:42:33,200
most people, you know,

1697
01:42:33,380 --> 01:42:34,360
thinking about these things.

1698
01:42:34,540 --> 01:42:35,620
We're a fringe

1699
01:42:35,620 --> 01:42:36,920
and we're on a closing course

1700
01:42:36,920 --> 01:42:37,760
with an entire world

1701
01:42:37,760 --> 01:42:39,360
that doesn't care about these things

1702
01:42:39,360 --> 01:42:40,020
that we care about.

1703
01:42:40,520 --> 01:42:41,900
And it's going to be a challenge.

1704
01:42:42,400 --> 01:42:53,200
No, so, and that's why I think education is crucial and especially education about why scams are scams and why you shouldn't fall for them.

1705
01:42:53,640 --> 01:42:56,560
There is no such thing as a non-fungible token.

1706
01:42:56,980 --> 01:42:59,460
There is no token on the internet at all, in fact.

1707
01:42:59,620 --> 01:43:01,540
Like, all data is copyable.

1708
01:43:01,780 --> 01:43:06,420
The Satoshi is sacred and special for very different reasons.

1709
01:43:06,420 --> 01:43:09,600
It's because they live in your head, not on the internet.

1710
01:43:09,600 --> 01:43:15,920
It indeed makes me sound to see good, more intelligent developer talent working on stuff like that rather than...

1711
01:43:17,660 --> 01:43:26,620
And that's part of the reason why I think that it can be a mistake to prioritize for youth, because youth is very good for innovation and energy and ego and ambition.

1712
01:43:27,120 --> 01:43:34,620
But then if it's channeled into making shitcoin and tokens and things like that, rather than making the...

1713
01:43:34,620 --> 01:43:37,980
The main priority for me is just making the base layer robust.

1714
01:43:37,980 --> 01:43:40,700
having a robust face layer, having a robust

1715
01:43:40,700 --> 01:43:42,640
lightning network, robust second layer

1716
01:43:42,640 --> 01:43:43,560
for payments.

1717
01:43:45,060 --> 01:43:46,620
Robustness. It's not about... I'm not

1718
01:43:46,620 --> 01:43:47,860
particularly interested in all the rest.

1719
01:43:49,320 --> 01:43:50,620
But, you know, that's maybe

1720
01:43:50,620 --> 01:43:52,720
boring to a young person, but I'm not so young.

1721
01:43:52,800 --> 01:43:54,800
I'm probably the oldest person in Bitcoin

1722
01:43:54,800 --> 01:43:56,780
core. And I just

1723
01:43:56,780 --> 01:43:58,520
care about it as money and making it robust

1724
01:43:58,520 --> 01:44:00,620
and as robust and as

1725
01:44:00,620 --> 01:44:02,520
decentralized as we can. Robustness and

1726
01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:04,680
decentralization. AJ Towns wrote that on a blog

1727
01:44:04,680 --> 01:44:06,800
post several years ago. AJ got

1728
01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:08,180
that full on 100% right.

1729
01:44:08,580 --> 01:44:09,960
Robustness and decentralization.

1730
01:44:10,100 --> 01:44:11,100
That's where Bitcoin shines

1731
01:44:11,100 --> 01:44:13,280
and that's where my attention is.

1732
01:44:13,860 --> 01:44:18,000
And decentralization of funding developers,

1733
01:44:18,200 --> 01:44:19,700
of developers, of mining,

1734
01:44:20,100 --> 01:44:22,280
and making it possible to run nodes

1735
01:44:22,280 --> 01:44:23,420
as cheap as possible.

1736
01:44:23,560 --> 01:44:24,860
So don't burden everybody

1737
01:44:24,860 --> 01:44:27,980
with a bunch of crap on their node.

1738
01:44:29,180 --> 01:44:30,620
I mean, Cora was good at that

1739
01:44:30,620 --> 01:44:31,520
with the block size war

1740
01:44:31,520 --> 01:44:34,540
in preferring to keep things light

1741
01:44:34,540 --> 01:44:37,260
for the node users in blocks smaller.

1742
01:44:38,600 --> 01:44:41,500
So yeah, there's definitely been a bit of a change

1743
01:44:41,500 --> 01:44:47,820
in narrative by necessity or by other means,

1744
01:44:47,980 --> 01:44:49,060
but it's concerning.

1745
01:44:51,100 --> 01:44:51,780
Absolutely.

1746
01:44:52,020 --> 01:44:55,120
I saw in one of the launch posts

1747
01:44:55,120 --> 01:44:58,560
for one of these shit coins on Bitcoin things,

1748
01:44:58,640 --> 01:44:59,600
I think it's Opnet,

1749
01:45:00,260 --> 01:45:03,720
that the article said that there are so many sats

1750
01:45:03,720 --> 01:45:10,580
just sitting there doing nothing. And it reminded me so much of Christine Lagarde saying that there

1751
01:45:10,580 --> 01:45:16,880
are so many big piles of euros in people's savings account that are sitting there doing nothing,

1752
01:45:17,020 --> 01:45:21,320
and we ought to do something with them. That's what they want to do. They want to steal your

1753
01:45:21,320 --> 01:45:27,380
money. No, this is the thing that people don't get about money. It's never idle. It always provides

1754
01:45:27,380 --> 01:45:35,300
its holder with a service. Saving is a use case. It is, in fact, the most important use case. That's

1755
01:45:35,300 --> 01:45:43,440
how it fixes store value. It's so crucial. It provides proper incentives and peace of mind

1756
01:45:43,440 --> 01:45:50,800
and freedom. Yeah, freedom is important. Yeah, and it's creeping in that that is not important

1757
01:45:50,800 --> 01:45:57,480
anymore uh and it's it's so sad and it's sort of with the stable coins thing but what i dislike

1758
01:45:57,480 --> 01:46:02,620
about that is like the narrative is that it's this necessary bridge into the other world and

1759
01:46:02,620 --> 01:46:09,940
we can bank the unbanked and stuff but to me like if fiat is smoking then then stable coins are

1760
01:46:09,940 --> 01:46:16,760
nicotine patches but if you want to quit nicotine then you should use sats instead

1761
01:46:16,760 --> 01:46:22,440
yes you see what i mean it's it's it's a substitute for but you're still you're still

1762
01:46:22,440 --> 01:46:27,620
addicted to this drug so it doesn't fix the problem and i believe that developers it's

1763
01:46:27,620 --> 01:46:34,920
healthier if bitcoin developers are funded in bitcoin rather than of course of course and

1764
01:46:34,920 --> 01:46:39,380
what that presupposes more of them not being in the united states where you cannot use bitcoin

1765
01:46:39,380 --> 01:46:41,260
really without capital.

1766
01:46:42,380 --> 01:46:43,480
Well, you can

1767
01:46:43,480 --> 01:46:46,180
if you're

1768
01:46:46,180 --> 01:46:47,700
ballsy enough to give the finger

1769
01:46:47,700 --> 01:46:49,440
to the government and not give a crap.

1770
01:46:50,440 --> 01:46:50,920
Right.

1771
01:46:51,420 --> 01:46:53,620
I was actually made an example of

1772
01:46:53,620 --> 01:46:55,400
Mike Jonas once in his blog

1773
01:46:55,400 --> 01:46:57,600
of saying how things can go very wrong when your funding

1774
01:46:57,600 --> 01:46:59,340
is in Bitcoin and that it's

1775
01:46:59,340 --> 01:47:01,320
probably a bit safer and wiser to

1776
01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:02,900
have it in fiat.

1777
01:47:03,400 --> 01:47:05,380
My funder at the time, Square Crypto

1778
01:47:05,380 --> 01:47:07,400
later became Spiral, did begin

1779
01:47:07,400 --> 01:47:09,260
proposing to me to take dollars

1780
01:47:09,260 --> 01:47:10,080
instead of Bitcoin.

1781
01:47:11,900 --> 01:47:13,620
I wouldn't be where I am today

1782
01:47:13,620 --> 01:47:14,280
with this Citadel

1783
01:47:14,280 --> 01:47:15,760
if I had been accepting Gollum.

1784
01:47:15,820 --> 01:47:16,940
It's so...

1785
01:47:16,940 --> 01:47:18,660
No, and...

1786
01:47:18,660 --> 01:47:21,980
It's so sad that you're so unique

1787
01:47:21,980 --> 01:47:24,500
in doing that, like...

1788
01:47:24,500 --> 01:47:25,140
I'm not.

1789
01:47:25,220 --> 01:47:26,240
There are other developers,

1790
01:47:26,860 --> 01:47:27,900
but definitely the ones

1791
01:47:27,900 --> 01:47:29,720
in the New York City office

1792
01:47:29,720 --> 01:47:31,560
are obviously not being paid in Bitcoin.

1793
01:47:32,200 --> 01:47:34,540
No, and that in itself

1794
01:47:34,540 --> 01:47:37,020
is such a humongous red flag.

1795
01:47:37,260 --> 01:47:38,000
Like, you don't believe

1796
01:47:38,000 --> 01:47:38,860
in this revolution.

1797
01:47:39,260 --> 01:47:42,120
or the ones in the local host in San Francisco.

1798
01:47:42,920 --> 01:47:45,700
I don't know about the Brink office in London.

1799
01:47:46,400 --> 01:47:50,920
I do imagine, though, that you could probably ask Brink to be funded partially or all in Bitcoin.

1800
01:47:51,160 --> 01:47:55,600
It's surely possible, but how are you going to use that Bitcoin if you're in London, New York, or San Francisco?

1801
01:47:56,080 --> 01:48:01,500
Whereas if you're in the Global South or some other countries where Bitcoin has,

1802
01:48:01,500 --> 01:48:03,740
there are circular Bitcoin economies around the world,

1803
01:48:04,060 --> 01:48:06,120
and just not very many Bitcoin developers in those places.

1804
01:48:06,120 --> 01:48:08,660
no and it's so sad because

1805
01:48:08,660 --> 01:48:12,820
if you now

1806
01:48:12,820 --> 01:48:14,800
buy your action to accept fiat

1807
01:48:14,800 --> 01:48:16,920
instead of bitcoin show that you don't

1808
01:48:16,920 --> 01:48:18,420
truly believe in this revolution

1809
01:48:18,420 --> 01:48:20,780
then shouldn't you

1810
01:48:20,780 --> 01:48:21,020
like

1811
01:48:21,020 --> 01:48:24,660
that to me is the biggest

1812
01:48:24,660 --> 01:48:26,660
red flag ever like if

1813
01:48:26,660 --> 01:48:28,860
you're working on bitcoin and

1814
01:48:28,860 --> 01:48:30,140
you do not accept bitcoin

1815
01:48:30,140 --> 01:48:32,660
what do you even do you even

1816
01:48:32,660 --> 01:48:33,700
bitcoin bro like

1817
01:48:33,700 --> 01:48:36,380
What are the other incentives?

1818
01:48:37,060 --> 01:48:39,840
I think it's the condition of the funding organization

1819
01:48:39,840 --> 01:48:41,540
is imposing fiat,

1820
01:48:41,660 --> 01:48:44,560
not that the developer is preferring fiat.

1821
01:48:45,160 --> 01:48:46,820
It's case by case, of course,

1822
01:48:46,900 --> 01:48:49,540
but I'm aware of cases where the funding organization

1823
01:48:49,540 --> 01:48:51,160
doesn't propose Bitcoin.

1824
01:48:52,260 --> 01:48:54,560
No, and I'm not trying to...

1825
01:48:55,820 --> 01:48:59,000
Whereas, thankfully, ones like HRF or OpenStats,

1826
01:48:59,000 --> 01:49:02,400
and I believe Spiral did fund me entirely in Bitcoin

1827
01:49:02,400 --> 01:49:03,820
the whole time, four years.

1828
01:49:04,300 --> 01:49:06,120
It is possible, but

1829
01:49:06,120 --> 01:49:08,640
sometimes you have to ask where you can push for it.

1830
01:49:09,180 --> 01:49:10,320
OpenSats and HRF, no.

1831
01:49:10,560 --> 01:49:12,320
OpenSats and HRF, they are all

1832
01:49:12,320 --> 01:49:13,200
Bitcoin. That's it.

1833
01:49:13,960 --> 01:49:15,400
You want to be paying something else?

1834
01:49:15,840 --> 01:49:16,720
Go pound sand.

1835
01:49:16,960 --> 01:49:17,760
You're getting paid in Bitcoin.

1836
01:49:17,760 --> 01:49:20,200
No, but

1837
01:49:20,200 --> 01:49:23,040
I mean,

1838
01:49:23,420 --> 01:49:26,840
the whole thing,

1839
01:49:27,160 --> 01:49:29,060
it just stinks.

1840
01:49:30,180 --> 01:49:31,900
I'm sorry, but to me,

1841
01:49:31,900 --> 01:49:40,120
it's very saddening to hear that the fiat mindset is everywhere. And I do understand that people live

1842
01:49:40,120 --> 01:49:47,040
in the real world, and people with guns will come and take them if they do something illegal. So

1843
01:49:47,040 --> 01:49:53,200
there's that. It's sort of the same thing as the fetish attitude with OpReturn. That doesn't mean

1844
01:49:53,200 --> 01:50:00,860
you give up. In my world, it shouldn't lead to anyone giving up. So, John, we've been going on

1845
01:50:00,860 --> 01:50:02,280
for two hours here

1846
01:50:02,280 --> 01:50:04,920
and I absolutely

1847
01:50:04,920 --> 01:50:06,720
love this conversation. Is there anything

1848
01:50:06,720 --> 01:50:08,440
more you wanted to add to the whole

1849
01:50:08,440 --> 01:50:10,280
your talk in San Salvador?

1850
01:50:10,660 --> 01:50:12,340
The points you missed there?

1851
01:50:13,640 --> 01:50:14,780
Well, that could

1852
01:50:14,780 --> 01:50:15,740
go on for a lot.

1853
01:50:17,560 --> 01:50:18,760
It's not every day I

1854
01:50:18,760 --> 01:50:20,940
have you on, so I have nothing against that.

1855
01:50:22,180 --> 01:50:22,780
I mean...

1856
01:50:22,780 --> 01:50:24,780
So, yeah, I mean...

1857
01:50:25,600 --> 01:50:26,700
I'm really

1858
01:50:26,700 --> 01:50:28,220
not interested in drama

1859
01:50:28,220 --> 01:50:30,840
and so I don't really like

1860
01:50:30,860 --> 01:50:37,820
these topics but at the same time in general i see plebs uh feeling something is off and there's a

1861
01:50:37,820 --> 01:50:43,700
lot of speculation on social media and my impression has been that people will speculate

1862
01:50:43,700 --> 01:50:50,460
because they don't know and i don't say everything i know um i have to hold back quite a lot

1863
01:50:50,460 --> 01:50:56,480
unfortunately and i'm not interested in gossiping about this stuff but i think it's important for

1864
01:50:56,480 --> 01:51:02,060
people to know what really took place or has taken place and what is still taking place.

1865
01:51:02,060 --> 01:51:06,180
To have a more informed view of what really has been behind the scenes.

1866
01:51:06,214 --> 01:51:16,294
So my presentation tried to cover some things, and I think we should link to my slides in your podcast if you're willing to.

1867
01:51:17,194 --> 01:51:17,634
Absolutely.

1868
01:51:19,574 --> 01:51:23,214
A few quick points from my slides.

1869
01:51:23,594 --> 01:51:27,954
I talked about the selection criteria being an issue, the leadership transition.

1870
01:51:27,954 --> 01:51:34,594
where are the why are the new developers not cypherpunks and sovereign individuals and

1871
01:51:34,594 --> 01:51:40,574
citadels spread around all the world all over the world um rather than being in few offices

1872
01:51:40,574 --> 01:51:49,754
um there is a myth that the maintainers are just janitors following the reviews

1873
01:51:49,754 --> 01:51:54,974
merging things that have had enough review that is not entirely true there are dynastic effects

1874
01:51:54,974 --> 01:51:56,934
because maintainers are going to stay a very long time,

1875
01:51:57,154 --> 01:51:59,934
five, six, seven, eight years, sometimes 10 years, sometimes.

1876
01:52:00,794 --> 01:52:06,454
And there are real social processes that are affected by

1877
01:52:06,454 --> 01:52:09,594
when you become a maintainer, things change.

1878
01:52:10,254 --> 01:52:13,274
And dynastic effects, I believe that it,

1879
01:52:13,814 --> 01:52:16,434
I did believe that for core, it would be a good idea

1880
01:52:16,434 --> 01:52:19,454
to turn maintainership to more of a jury duty

1881
01:52:19,454 --> 01:52:21,314
where you don't like code,

1882
01:52:21,714 --> 01:52:23,374
where you're not responsible for a project,

1883
01:52:23,374 --> 01:52:27,434
where you just review and serve others for a limited time

1884
01:52:27,434 --> 01:52:30,674
and then you go back to your life as a regular contributor

1885
01:52:30,674 --> 01:52:32,934
the way politics should be.

1886
01:52:33,054 --> 01:52:35,514
I had an uncle who was a congressman.

1887
01:52:35,714 --> 01:52:37,314
He did two terms.

1888
01:52:37,454 --> 01:52:38,674
He realized that for his third term,

1889
01:52:38,714 --> 01:52:41,354
he would have to make too many compromises to donors.

1890
01:52:41,734 --> 01:52:43,214
And so he set back to private life

1891
01:52:43,214 --> 01:52:46,154
to keep things sane and healthy.

1892
01:52:46,674 --> 01:52:49,694
And I think it would be healthy for CORE to think about that.

1893
01:52:50,094 --> 01:52:51,254
But at the same time,

1894
01:52:51,254 --> 01:52:53,774
if you have several implementations

1895
01:52:53,774 --> 01:52:55,874
then perhaps the diversification

1896
01:52:55,874 --> 01:52:57,994
could be, perhaps the maintainers

1897
01:52:57,994 --> 01:52:59,594
would be okay if you had a strong leader like

1898
01:52:59,594 --> 01:53:01,674
Vladimir in place for a decade, if they are a good

1899
01:53:01,674 --> 01:53:02,994
humble, wise

1900
01:53:02,994 --> 01:53:05,234
servant-oriented leader

1901
01:53:05,234 --> 01:53:07,874
as long as you have different implementations

1902
01:53:07,874 --> 01:53:09,574
offering users choices and options

1903
01:53:09,574 --> 01:53:11,634
then perhaps you could have someone long-term in place

1904
01:53:11,634 --> 01:53:13,814
without jury duty regular rotation

1905
01:53:13,814 --> 01:53:15,714
but if you only

1906
01:53:15,714 --> 01:53:17,734
have core, that is 95, 96

1907
01:53:17,734 --> 01:53:19,614
98% as it used to be before

1908
01:53:19,614 --> 01:53:21,414
not increased recently,

1909
01:53:21,774 --> 01:53:23,574
then I believe it should have some sort of

1910
01:53:23,574 --> 01:53:25,534
regular rotation of maintainerships

1911
01:53:25,534 --> 01:53:27,554
to avoid dynasty effects

1912
01:53:27,554 --> 01:53:29,494
and

1913
01:53:29,494 --> 01:53:30,454
power clicks.

1914
01:53:33,674 --> 01:53:35,534
How maintainers are chosen in

1915
01:53:35,534 --> 01:53:37,694
core, to be quite clear, it is not

1916
01:53:37,694 --> 01:53:39,434
a vote of the core

1917
01:53:39,434 --> 01:53:41,874
developers. They are chosen

1918
01:53:41,874 --> 01:53:43,534
from what I've seen quite clearly

1919
01:53:43,534 --> 01:53:45,534
by the existing maintainers.

1920
01:53:46,454 --> 01:53:47,474
Often by a proposal

1921
01:53:47,474 --> 01:53:49,494
from one of them and a strong

1922
01:53:49,494 --> 01:53:54,214
vetoed from one of them could be enough to disable a nomination.

1923
01:53:54,214 --> 01:53:58,774
So in core, the maintainers are chosen by the maintainers.

1924
01:53:58,774 --> 01:54:03,654
With perhaps input from the project owners who are no longer maintainers.

1925
01:54:03,654 --> 01:54:07,414
Project owners are the only people above maintainers in the core hierarchy.

1926
01:54:07,414 --> 01:54:11,414
They are the owners of the GitHub repository. As far as I know, there are

1927
01:54:11,414 --> 01:54:17,494
four of them. Two OGs and two newer ones.

1928
01:54:17,494 --> 01:54:19,874
Now, in quote, one thing that I was quite worried about

1929
01:54:19,874 --> 01:54:22,294
these past few years has been an increasing level of opacity

1930
01:54:22,294 --> 01:54:23,434
in the communications.

1931
01:54:24,154 --> 01:54:27,654
It used to be that we had very good public IRC meetings

1932
01:54:27,654 --> 01:54:30,034
once a week with Vladimir as the lead maintainer

1933
01:54:30,034 --> 01:54:30,854
running the meetings.

1934
01:54:31,394 --> 01:54:37,354
He was such a good meeting leader

1935
01:54:37,354 --> 01:54:40,214
in coming to decisions in real life

1936
01:54:40,214 --> 01:54:42,674
with intelligent, honest, humble conversations

1937
01:54:42,674 --> 01:54:45,694
to come to a, often to come to a conclusion

1938
01:54:45,694 --> 01:54:46,754
during that same meeting.

1939
01:54:46,754 --> 01:54:48,354
and to arrive as a thing.

1940
01:54:48,734 --> 01:54:51,494
Since then, working groups were created.

1941
01:54:52,234 --> 01:54:54,634
These are private groups that communicate privately on signal.

1942
01:54:55,134 --> 01:54:57,034
You have to reply to be admitted to them.

1943
01:54:57,814 --> 01:54:59,774
And that's where the real communication takes place now,

1944
01:54:59,834 --> 01:55:00,514
on these silos,

1945
01:55:01,034 --> 01:55:04,174
where someone like me who is watching from outside

1946
01:55:04,174 --> 01:55:07,254
cannot see what communication is taking place.

1947
01:55:07,614 --> 01:55:09,674
So the communication has become less public.

1948
01:55:09,834 --> 01:55:11,494
It's gone private and it's siloed.

1949
01:55:12,094 --> 01:55:13,954
And I find that personally worrying.

1950
01:55:14,134 --> 01:55:16,294
So the private working groups have replaced public

1951
01:55:16,754 --> 01:55:18,474
discussion in core meetings.

1952
01:55:20,754 --> 01:55:21,814
Code of conduct.

1953
01:55:22,694 --> 01:55:25,454
The core adopted a code of conduct

1954
01:55:25,454 --> 01:55:26,894
that I, if I recall correctly,

1955
01:55:26,994 --> 01:55:29,374
was written again by Jonas of ChainCodeLab.

1956
01:55:29,554 --> 01:55:31,734
And I initially, I was, I believe,

1957
01:55:31,794 --> 01:55:33,274
the first reviewer who came out

1958
01:55:33,274 --> 01:55:35,094
who reviewed that pull request

1959
01:55:35,094 --> 01:55:37,014
and I was not in favor of a code of conduct.

1960
01:55:37,174 --> 01:55:38,034
I've never been in favor.

1961
01:55:38,154 --> 01:55:39,534
And if I was running an implementation,

1962
01:55:39,794 --> 01:55:41,594
I would try to avoid one as much as possible.

1963
01:55:42,574 --> 01:55:44,314
Core went just fine without a code of conduct

1964
01:55:44,314 --> 01:56:12,021
for more than a decade Two dedicated moderators were named They good They do a very good job They good people I like both of the moderators who worked for CORE But they are unfortunately caught between a rock and a hard play because the way they are used is if for example I would make a comment that might be misinterpreted personally by a maintainer who then asks the moderators to investigate it who then come and investigate me over it

1965
01:56:12,681 --> 01:56:14,881
And I say, no, it wasn't a personal thing.

1966
01:56:14,881 --> 01:56:17,421
and I would remind the moderators

1967
01:56:17,421 --> 01:56:19,281
that when in doubt in

1968
01:56:19,281 --> 01:56:21,341
communication, such as in open source

1969
01:56:21,341 --> 01:56:23,001
development, you

1970
01:56:23,001 --> 01:56:25,321
by default must assume the most charitable

1971
01:56:25,321 --> 01:56:27,461
and generous interpretation of what somebody wrote

1972
01:56:27,461 --> 01:56:29,101
rather than assuming the worst

1973
01:56:29,101 --> 01:56:30,081
unless proven so.

1974
01:56:30,701 --> 01:56:33,501
And this is the basic rule

1975
01:56:33,501 --> 01:56:35,341
and the moderators were

1976
01:56:35,341 --> 01:56:36,401
yes, you're right.

1977
01:56:37,081 --> 01:56:39,361
And so the maintainer who told you

1978
01:56:39,361 --> 01:56:41,441
to go after me for my comment was assuming

1979
01:56:41,441 --> 01:56:43,281
the worst rather than giving it a generous

1980
01:56:43,281 --> 01:56:44,461
or normal interpretation.

1981
01:56:44,881 --> 01:56:48,001
So they're between a rock and a hard place.

1982
01:56:48,001 --> 01:56:52,021
Basically, the code of conduct is used to protect the powerful against the weak, when

1983
01:56:52,021 --> 01:56:55,701
it really, in my opinion, should be used, if at all, to protect the weak against the

1984
01:56:55,701 --> 01:56:57,081
powerful.

1985
01:56:57,081 --> 01:56:58,701
But that's how rules tend to be.

1986
01:56:58,701 --> 01:57:00,941
Yeah, yeah.

1987
01:57:00,941 --> 01:57:04,441
Code of conduct sounds like politicization to me.

1988
01:57:04,441 --> 01:57:06,881
Like it's politics creeping in.

1989
01:57:06,881 --> 01:57:07,881
Yeah.

1990
01:57:07,881 --> 01:57:14,501
This came from the introduction, the creeping of woke into these open source projects.

1991
01:57:14,881 --> 01:57:18,741
So it comes back to we need alternative clients with different politics.

1992
01:57:18,861 --> 01:57:20,341
Maybe we can have a woke one.

1993
01:57:20,341 --> 01:57:28,321
Maybe we can have one that's maybe more just older, conservative, seasoned people

1994
01:57:28,321 --> 01:57:31,421
who aren't based on anything related to their identity.

1995
01:57:31,641 --> 01:57:32,901
We don't care what country you're in.

1996
01:57:32,921 --> 01:57:36,021
If you have two kids or four, what color your hair is, anything.

1997
01:57:36,141 --> 01:57:36,621
It doesn't matter.

1998
01:57:37,341 --> 01:57:38,901
What matters is your work.

1999
01:57:40,641 --> 01:57:43,341
There is a perennial lack of...

2000
01:57:44,881 --> 01:57:50,901
The perennial constraint in Bitcoin core protocol development has been a lack of experienced reviewers.

2001
01:57:51,661 --> 01:57:56,061
People always cite the most frustrating thing to them as being,

2002
01:57:56,281 --> 01:57:58,801
my work doesn't get reviewed, it doesn't move forward, there's no good review.

2003
01:58:00,521 --> 01:58:03,801
And so I've seen it argued that we shouldn't have more implementations

2004
01:58:03,801 --> 01:58:08,581
because that would disperse the reviewers across the already resource we are lacking

2005
01:58:08,581 --> 01:58:14,401
against over more projects instead of concentrating the rare review talent.

2006
01:58:14,401 --> 01:58:23,821
I disagree with that because in core, I've seen very good experienced seasons reviewers be disenfranchised just because they're more independent.

2007
01:58:24,161 --> 01:58:32,841
And then we see what I like I mentioned earlier in our discussion where people are coming in not to review the pull request or the code, but just to review the reviewer.

2008
01:58:33,961 --> 01:58:40,181
To dunk down on their on their review to to make it possible to ignore their review or to push it aside.

2009
01:58:40,181 --> 01:58:43,721
I believe that there are people

2010
01:58:43,721 --> 01:58:44,981
who are very good reviewers in court

2011
01:58:44,981 --> 01:58:45,901
who are underutilized

2012
01:58:45,901 --> 01:58:47,141
because of the social processes

2013
01:58:47,141 --> 01:58:48,921
because they're not in an office

2014
01:58:48,921 --> 01:58:50,821
they're not in the popular group

2015
01:58:50,821 --> 01:58:53,221
maybe they are one guy alone in Eastern Europe

2016
01:58:53,221 --> 01:58:55,541
or one guy alone in Central America

2017
01:58:55,541 --> 01:58:56,121
and so on

2018
01:58:56,121 --> 01:58:58,241
so there are double standards

2019
01:58:58,241 --> 01:59:01,361
and there's ongoing social signaling

2020
01:59:01,361 --> 01:59:02,821
of approval and disapproval

2021
01:59:02,821 --> 01:59:04,341
who should be supported

2022
01:59:04,341 --> 01:59:07,021
who is in, who is out

2023
01:59:07,021 --> 01:59:09,401
that is maybe inevitable

2024
01:59:09,401 --> 01:59:14,841
in human processes, but it wasn't quite as bad when I first joined Core as it became later.

2025
01:59:15,961 --> 01:59:24,281
So I have a list of, in my slides, starting from slide 49, culture, named culture. I have one, two,

2026
01:59:24,281 --> 01:59:33,481
three, four, five, four pages of what I would consider to be the guidelines for an implementation.

2027
01:59:33,481 --> 01:59:37,561
and at the end of the day

2028
01:59:37,561 --> 01:59:39,781
really having one single dominant client

2029
01:59:39,781 --> 01:59:41,361
creates monopoly risks

2030
01:59:41,361 --> 01:59:43,101
it cifls developers

2031
01:59:43,101 --> 01:59:45,301
who are not in the in-group, it cifls development

2032
01:59:45,301 --> 01:59:46,901
maybe we could have one

2033
01:59:46,901 --> 01:59:49,001
it's going to get harder with more

2034
01:59:49,001 --> 01:59:50,721
implementations to introduce softworks

2035
01:59:50,721 --> 01:59:52,901
probably, I could imagine

2036
01:59:52,901 --> 01:59:55,021
but maybe we could have one implementation

2037
01:59:55,021 --> 01:59:57,101
that does launch CTV or COVID

2038
01:59:57,101 --> 01:59:58,261
and since the people want that

2039
01:59:58,261 --> 02:00:00,741
one that does like not

2040
02:00:00,741 --> 02:00:02,621
launch something like BIP 110

2041
02:00:02,621 --> 02:00:09,141
I am not certain how it will help or hinder innovation, having more clients, more implementations.

2042
02:00:09,661 --> 02:00:14,601
But having only one is still seen by, I think, a growing part of the community as being an engineer.

2043
02:00:15,661 --> 02:00:16,841
They need options.

2044
02:00:17,741 --> 02:00:19,941
I mean, more options is always good, right?

2045
02:00:20,121 --> 02:00:26,001
And it's sort of like countries having to compete for talent if you have more.

2046
02:00:26,001 --> 02:00:28,521
As long as you don't introduce

2047
02:00:28,521 --> 02:00:41,849
Less resiliency With the consensus rules As long as they follow consensus properly and don have critical consensus funds But you right I agree that more implementations

2048
02:00:41,849 --> 02:00:43,669
will have more network resilience,

2049
02:00:44,449 --> 02:00:45,949
fewer single points of failure

2050
02:00:45,949 --> 02:00:46,929
like we do now,

2051
02:00:47,749 --> 02:00:50,029
more available choice, and it will incentivize

2052
02:00:50,029 --> 02:00:51,449
Bitcoin Core to improve.

2053
02:00:52,829 --> 02:00:53,909
Yeah, correct me

2054
02:00:53,909 --> 02:00:55,689
if I'm wrong, but if they're not in consensus,

2055
02:00:56,029 --> 02:00:57,769
they're a shitcoin. They're a fork,

2056
02:00:57,889 --> 02:00:59,889
right? By definition.

2057
02:00:59,889 --> 02:01:07,629
Yes, but you want basically on part of the reasoning behind the kernel isolation project

2058
02:01:07,629 --> 02:01:13,489
in core has been to have a single kernel that other implementations could use while innovating

2059
02:01:13,489 --> 02:01:17,829
elsewhere, but they all use the same solid, robust kernel.

2060
02:01:20,429 --> 02:01:26,009
So the most important rules, and if you follow the consensus ones, that as long as the client

2061
02:01:26,009 --> 02:01:28,969
is following that, then they should be free to innovate in other things, perhaps.

2062
02:01:29,889 --> 02:01:42,489
But overall, I think the main thing is to offer more choice and to encourage Bitcoin Core to be more careful about what it does if it's more likely to lose market share.

2063
02:01:43,309 --> 02:01:47,849
Right now, Core, my understanding is that Core is having problems recruiting new developers.

2064
02:01:49,789 --> 02:01:51,749
That could be wrong, but that's what I've heard.

2065
02:01:54,469 --> 02:01:58,349
So Bitcoin maybe is not as much in fashion at the moment.

2066
02:01:58,349 --> 02:02:06,009
or maybe it's just core is not as much in fashion i don't know but developing and training

2067
02:02:06,009 --> 02:02:09,629
not only new users but also more developers is going to be important

2068
02:02:09,629 --> 02:02:16,249
it always has been yeah and it's going and we have to be very careful and vigilant about

2069
02:02:16,249 --> 02:02:21,469
where the developers are being trained and and educated so that it's not just one centralized

2070
02:02:21,469 --> 02:02:22,669
place in one city.

2071
02:02:23,809 --> 02:02:25,629
No, and maybe not

2072
02:02:25,629 --> 02:02:27,769
with emotional Fridays

2073
02:02:27,769 --> 02:02:28,629
or whatever.

2074
02:02:29,309 --> 02:02:31,609
Maybe we should have trained at another

2075
02:02:31,609 --> 02:02:33,769
school that doesn't focus that much on

2076
02:02:33,769 --> 02:02:35,509
feeling Fridays.

2077
02:02:36,429 --> 02:02:37,609
If you do have

2078
02:02:37,609 --> 02:02:39,509
feelings Fridays for one implementation,

2079
02:02:39,669 --> 02:02:41,569
as long as you have three or four

2080
02:02:41,569 --> 02:02:43,429
implementations that sort of have roughly

2081
02:02:43,429 --> 02:02:45,629
equal market share, I think that's fine.

2082
02:02:47,369 --> 02:02:47,889
Guns,

2083
02:02:47,889 --> 02:02:49,609
steak and cigars Fridays

2084
02:02:49,609 --> 02:02:51,969
for another implementations, please.

2085
02:02:52,269 --> 02:02:54,769
Healings Fridays, Guns Shooting Fridays.

2086
02:02:54,949 --> 02:02:56,729
Guns and Steak Fridays, yeah, yeah.

2087
02:02:58,029 --> 02:02:59,229
I'll disappoint you all.

2088
02:02:59,269 --> 02:03:00,709
I don't have any guns in El Salvador.

2089
02:03:01,509 --> 02:03:03,969
And, you know, we have also AI is coming,

2090
02:03:03,969 --> 02:03:07,269
and that's a real topic right now amongst the core developers.

2091
02:03:07,489 --> 02:03:09,549
Bitcoin developers in general is integrating AI.

2092
02:03:10,369 --> 02:03:11,169
That's a whole other thing.

2093
02:03:12,389 --> 02:03:13,229
Oh, yeah, yeah.

2094
02:03:13,309 --> 02:03:16,509
That's a whole other box to open.

2095
02:03:17,229 --> 02:03:17,829
Oh, my.

2096
02:03:19,609 --> 02:03:20,929
anyway

2097
02:03:20,929 --> 02:03:23,569
how is life in El Salvador

2098
02:03:23,569 --> 02:03:25,809
by the way? You're still enjoying yourself

2099
02:03:25,809 --> 02:03:26,949
immensely? I mean

2100
02:03:26,949 --> 02:03:28,169
I love El Salvador

2101
02:03:28,169 --> 02:03:31,009
I love it here but

2102
02:03:31,009 --> 02:03:33,129
I mean it's a challenge

2103
02:03:33,129 --> 02:03:34,729
it's cost me a lot of money

2104
02:03:34,729 --> 02:03:36,529
it's cost me a lot of time

2105
02:03:36,529 --> 02:03:39,609
it's kind of like moving to working on Bitcoin

2106
02:03:39,609 --> 02:03:40,929
Core, would I do it again?

2107
02:03:42,389 --> 02:03:43,809
knowing how much

2108
02:03:43,809 --> 02:03:45,589
it costs and how much time

2109
02:03:45,589 --> 02:03:47,589
it took to become a Core developer

2110
02:03:47,589 --> 02:03:50,969
the same could be said for

2111
02:03:50,969 --> 02:03:52,389
El Salvador but

2112
02:03:52,389 --> 02:03:54,789
it's very compelling if you're a freedom

2113
02:03:54,789 --> 02:03:56,829
lover. I don't know how long

2114
02:03:56,829 --> 02:03:58,649
the freedom window will remain open

2115
02:03:58,649 --> 02:04:00,829
or maybe we will all get rugged.

2116
02:04:01,169 --> 02:04:02,669
I do worry that the government

2117
02:04:02,669 --> 02:04:04,769
will introduce property taxes and rug all of

2118
02:04:04,769 --> 02:04:06,489
us people who've been investing in land.

2119
02:04:07,389 --> 02:04:10,649
That would be terrible because a lot of

2120
02:04:10,649 --> 02:04:12,609
I think the value of the land here is

2121
02:04:12,609 --> 02:04:14,469
coming from A, the security to safety

2122
02:04:14,469 --> 02:04:16,589
and B, the lack of property taxes

2123
02:04:16,589 --> 02:04:17,849
which could change.

2124
02:04:18,029 --> 02:04:19,509
And I am worried about that.

2125
02:04:20,009 --> 02:04:22,829
I think there's a real risk of the safety could go away.

2126
02:04:22,969 --> 02:04:24,569
Maybe the CIA breaks open prisons.

2127
02:04:24,729 --> 02:04:26,229
I mean, tinfoil on that.

2128
02:04:26,669 --> 02:04:29,469
Or the property taxes could be introduced.

2129
02:04:29,569 --> 02:04:31,309
And that would be honestly very sad.

2130
02:04:32,069 --> 02:04:36,789
I would say that both those count as the safety going away.

2131
02:04:38,769 --> 02:04:39,249
Yes.

2132
02:04:39,589 --> 02:04:41,489
And so you don't know.

2133
02:04:41,489 --> 02:04:44,789
And it's actually, I've never invested so much in my life

2134
02:04:44,789 --> 02:04:46,969
outside of work in terms of time and money

2135
02:04:46,969 --> 02:04:47,729
as I have here.

2136
02:04:48,429 --> 02:04:50,149
But at the same time, it's

2137
02:04:50,149 --> 02:04:53,069
pretty cool here. I mean, there's a lot to love.

2138
02:04:54,489 --> 02:04:56,009
It's beautiful up there.

2139
02:04:56,369 --> 02:04:58,389
I mean, where you live.

2140
02:04:58,549 --> 02:05:00,369
I thoroughly enjoyed that afternoon

2141
02:05:00,369 --> 02:05:02,149
where I got to see your house

2142
02:05:02,149 --> 02:05:04,009
and get all sweaty.

2143
02:05:04,609 --> 02:05:06,349
And I had to leave

2144
02:05:06,349 --> 02:05:08,269
my shirt and get a t-shirt

2145
02:05:08,269 --> 02:05:10,229
from you because my flag was...

2146
02:05:10,229 --> 02:05:12,469
Yeah, my hat is still there, right?

2147
02:05:12,809 --> 02:05:14,729
I still have your hat. I still have your shirt.

2148
02:05:14,789 --> 02:05:30,936
They waiting for you If I know you correctly they still hanging on that ladder right No they hanging on something else All right That good to hear And I so sad that I didn get to go in November here that I couldn make it to El Salvador

2149
02:05:31,776 --> 02:05:32,576
Plan B.

2150
02:05:34,696 --> 02:05:36,456
You didn't come for Plan B.

2151
02:05:36,876 --> 02:05:37,296
No, no.

2152
02:05:37,936 --> 02:05:43,376
It turned out my passport's expiry date had an expiry date.

2153
02:05:43,376 --> 02:05:46,816
so the expiry date was like

2154
02:05:46,816 --> 02:05:48,736
five and a half months after my

2155
02:05:48,736 --> 02:05:50,396
planned return flight

2156
02:05:50,396 --> 02:05:51,996
so they wouldn't let me over there

2157
02:05:51,996 --> 02:05:54,056
and I was at the airport and all

2158
02:05:54,056 --> 02:05:55,856
stressed out of course

2159
02:05:55,856 --> 02:05:58,576
having this thing planned and I didn't want to

2160
02:05:58,576 --> 02:06:00,416
let people down

2161
02:06:00,416 --> 02:06:02,516
I showed them pictures of me and

2162
02:06:02,516 --> 02:06:03,516
Bukele and stuff

2163
02:06:03,516 --> 02:06:06,796
just let me fly there

2164
02:06:06,796 --> 02:06:09,136
and I'll sort it out while I'm there

2165
02:06:09,136 --> 02:06:10,756
I'm sure I can sort it out

2166
02:06:10,756 --> 02:06:13,076
but no, they wouldn't let me on the plane

2167
02:06:13,076 --> 02:06:16,136
I have to say, I'm jealous of you and Giacomo.

2168
02:06:16,236 --> 02:06:17,476
You guys got to meet the president.

2169
02:06:17,676 --> 02:06:18,916
I still have not met the president.

2170
02:06:18,916 --> 02:06:19,176
Yeah, yeah.

2171
02:06:19,576 --> 02:06:24,116
Oh, I'm being called a hypocrite all over the internet because of that now.

2172
02:06:24,236 --> 02:06:27,296
I'm a statist cuck now because I went to dinner.

2173
02:06:27,316 --> 02:06:27,816
You're a statist cuck.

2174
02:06:30,856 --> 02:06:32,216
Of course, yeah.

2175
02:06:33,096 --> 02:06:34,276
No, that was interesting for you.

2176
02:06:34,276 --> 02:06:38,076
It was my second presidential dinner, if you count the president of Madeira.

2177
02:06:38,936 --> 02:06:40,996
Well, you'll be coming next November then, I am sure.

2178
02:06:40,996 --> 02:06:43,136
for adopting

2179
02:06:43,136 --> 02:06:44,516
or for an

2180
02:06:44,516 --> 02:06:45,076
historical

2181
02:06:45,076 --> 02:06:45,656
something

2182
02:06:45,656 --> 02:06:46,596
will there be

2183
02:06:46,596 --> 02:06:47,116
a historical

2184
02:06:47,116 --> 02:06:47,996
next year

2185
02:06:47,996 --> 02:06:48,676
or this year

2186
02:06:48,676 --> 02:06:49,716
I assume

2187
02:06:49,716 --> 02:06:50,156
there will be

2188
02:06:50,156 --> 02:06:50,576
because they're

2189
02:06:50,576 --> 02:06:51,036
launching the

2190
02:06:51,036 --> 02:06:51,516
same thing

2191
02:06:51,516 --> 02:06:52,236
but with AI

2192
02:06:52,236 --> 02:06:53,156
in April

2193
02:06:53,156 --> 02:06:54,276
oh

2194
02:06:54,276 --> 02:06:55,496
fantastic

2195
02:06:55,496 --> 02:06:56,636
I mean

2196
02:06:56,636 --> 02:06:57,476
the Bitcoin

2197
02:06:57,476 --> 02:06:58,256
office is

2198
02:06:58,256 --> 02:06:58,676
impressive

2199
02:06:58,676 --> 02:06:59,316
because you

2200
02:06:59,316 --> 02:06:59,696
know I

2201
02:06:59,696 --> 02:07:00,856
try to help

2202
02:07:00,856 --> 02:07:01,156
the Bitcoin

2203
02:07:01,156 --> 02:07:01,516
office

2204
02:07:01,516 --> 02:07:02,836
frequently

2205
02:07:02,836 --> 02:07:03,816
and they're

2206
02:07:03,816 --> 02:07:04,076
impressive

2207
02:07:04,076 --> 02:07:04,636
how much

2208
02:07:04,636 --> 02:07:04,956
they're able

2209
02:07:04,956 --> 02:07:05,496
to do

2210
02:07:05,496 --> 02:07:06,456
with little

2211
02:07:06,456 --> 02:07:07,016
they don't

2212
02:07:07,016 --> 02:07:07,496
have a big

2213
02:07:07,496 --> 02:07:07,996
budget or

2214
02:07:07,996 --> 02:07:08,256
anything

2215
02:07:08,256 --> 02:07:08,756
I mean

2216
02:07:08,756 --> 02:07:09,116
Bitcoin

2217
02:07:09,116 --> 02:07:09,496
historical

2218
02:07:09,496 --> 02:07:09,976
did look

2219
02:07:09,976 --> 02:07:10,236
like it

2220
02:07:10,236 --> 02:07:10,436
had a

2221
02:07:10,436 --> 02:07:10,896
decent

2222
02:07:10,896 --> 02:07:12,856
budget, but in general, they're not, they're

2223
02:07:12,856 --> 02:07:13,896
operating on a shoestring.

2224
02:07:14,896 --> 02:07:16,696
And it's amazing the stuff,

2225
02:07:16,836 --> 02:07:18,976
the innovation they're trying to introduce to El Salvador

2226
02:07:18,976 --> 02:07:20,916
compared to some other

2227
02:07:20,916 --> 02:07:22,876
organizations in the government that maybe are very well

2228
02:07:22,876 --> 02:07:24,676
funded or very well, much better connected

2229
02:07:24,676 --> 02:07:26,376
or more close to the center of power.

2230
02:07:27,176 --> 02:07:28,816
And the Bitcoin office are just doing

2231
02:07:28,816 --> 02:07:30,376
so much stuff with so little.

2232
02:07:31,036 --> 02:07:31,916
It's amazing.

2233
02:07:32,676 --> 02:07:32,776
Yeah.

2234
02:07:33,776 --> 02:07:36,616
I didn't necessarily, I didn't know Max

2235
02:07:36,616 --> 02:07:38,516
and Stacey before, and the more

2236
02:07:38,516 --> 02:07:40,596
I worked with

2237
02:07:40,596 --> 02:07:42,356
Stacey, the more there is to love.

2238
02:07:42,516 --> 02:07:42,856
It's amazing.

2239
02:07:43,716 --> 02:07:47,256
No, she's definitely a doer.

2240
02:07:47,916 --> 02:07:49,996
She makes things happen.

2241
02:07:50,296 --> 02:07:52,576
And yeah, thank you very much, Stacey,

2242
02:07:52,776 --> 02:07:54,596
for inviting me to Historico.

2243
02:07:54,636 --> 02:07:55,816
Yeah, she's incredible.

2244
02:07:56,256 --> 02:07:56,376
Yeah.

2245
02:07:57,076 --> 02:08:00,216
And yeah, I'm doing a lecture for Kubo Plus

2246
02:08:00,216 --> 02:08:02,156
on Monday, actually, online.

2247
02:08:02,956 --> 02:08:03,196
Online?

2248
02:08:03,196 --> 02:08:03,676
The second one.

2249
02:08:03,956 --> 02:08:04,116
Yeah.

2250
02:08:04,456 --> 02:08:06,236
So I already did one,

2251
02:08:06,316 --> 02:08:08,416
which was an interesting experience,

2252
02:08:08,416 --> 02:08:11,336
like between 50 and 100 students or something.

2253
02:08:11,736 --> 02:08:15,396
And they were all, they didn't have their cameras on.

2254
02:08:15,476 --> 02:08:18,656
So it's just random anonymous faces.

2255
02:08:18,836 --> 02:08:21,516
And I'm like, okay, what do you want me to talk about?

2256
02:08:21,596 --> 02:08:25,396
And it's just silence as a, all right, I'll talk about this.

2257
02:08:25,516 --> 02:08:28,316
And I just went on ranting for an hour or two

2258
02:08:28,316 --> 02:08:29,936
and they seemed to enjoyed it.

2259
02:08:31,576 --> 02:08:32,276
That's great.

2260
02:08:32,456 --> 02:08:34,676
Well, now the world knows that we collaborated

2261
02:08:34,676 --> 02:08:35,596
on your first book.

2262
02:08:35,596 --> 02:08:43,096
yeah and i'm so glad we got to get that story out maybe in a yet another revised edition i can put

2263
02:08:43,096 --> 02:08:49,156
your name in the book uh i'm eternally grateful for that it sure made me a better writer uh and

2264
02:08:49,156 --> 02:08:57,256
a better bitcoiner so once again deep thanks and uh yeah all the love in the world

2265
02:08:57,256 --> 02:09:04,396
well i hope to see you soon yes any before before i let you go john is there anywhere

2266
02:09:04,396 --> 02:09:06,416
on the internet where you want to send people

2267
02:09:06,416 --> 02:09:10,696
anything you want to direct people to?

2268
02:09:12,556 --> 02:09:14,676
Buy my NFTs and JPEGs.

2269
02:09:15,816 --> 02:09:18,856
You can follow me on X if you want to.

2270
02:09:18,936 --> 02:09:19,496
That's about it.

2271
02:09:20,596 --> 02:09:23,416
Yes, that's very advisable.

2272
02:09:24,156 --> 02:09:27,096
Jonatak, thanks so much for doing this.

2273
02:09:27,096 --> 02:09:31,056
I hope to return to El Salvador as soon as possible

2274
02:09:31,056 --> 02:09:33,816
and have a ceviche or two with you.

2275
02:09:34,396 --> 02:09:37,036
And maybe hop on your motorcycle again.

2276
02:09:37,436 --> 02:09:38,396
That was adventurous.

2277
02:09:39,356 --> 02:09:40,556
Come out and visit the Citadel.

2278
02:09:40,916 --> 02:09:41,276
Absolutely.

2279
02:09:42,136 --> 02:09:44,676
Yeah, hopefully I can bring my family one day too.

2280
02:09:45,436 --> 02:09:45,976
Oh, fantastic.

2281
02:09:46,496 --> 02:09:47,436
I love El Salvador.

2282
02:09:47,896 --> 02:09:48,976
It's fantastic.

2283
02:09:50,416 --> 02:09:50,976
Yes, sir.

2284
02:09:51,836 --> 02:09:52,696
See you soon.

2285
02:09:53,596 --> 02:09:54,916
Yes, thank you.

2286
02:09:54,916 --> 02:09:56,976
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

2287
02:10:02,256 --> 02:10:02,856
Arrivederci.

2288
02:10:02,856 --> 02:10:04,516
see you

2289
02:10:04,516 --> 02:10:05,636
see you