Prince Filip of Serbia on Bitcoin Adoption and Geopolitics - Bitcoin Infinity Show #135

0:00 Welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show, brought to you by BitBox Stampseed, the Bitcoin Advisor and ShopInBit. Go to BitcoinInfinity.com for books, merch and more. Enjoy the conversation. Filip, welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Thank you for joining us. Thanks, Luke. Thanks, Knut. Knut, sorry. Yes. to know a Knut in, uh, back in the days, but he liked to have it as a silent K. Yeah. Oh, what a nutcase. With a K. Silent K. Knutcase. He was Swiss. There Swiss.

0:40 we go. right. I didn't know there were Swiss I never knew there was people called Knut in the first place. No. He was the first and you're the second. Didn't you read about King Knut then I realized, yes, um, could be more red. it is a different spelling though. It's a, it's a C not a K because the British are, you know. Interesting with the spellings. well, if they put a C in front of an N and if you rearrange the letters, it could be something very nasty. yeah, it could be, it could be. we won't do that do that the show. Anyway, fantastic. Here we are in Maribor. And how's the Yeah, I love, I love the weather.

1:21 The weather's fantastic here. You know, it's cool and sunny. Crisp. It's the Yes. It's the sunny side of the Alps. That's the, the slogan of the conference. Yeah, I unironically thought it was nice and warm coming from Finland. So it's actually pretty good. Anything's warm in the Finland really. So yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And, and almost everything's colder than Buenos Aires . So yeah, this is . This is an interesting opening. So, Filip, how, how's the last year when we, when did we last talk to you? Jan? Three, I think. Yeah. I think it was January 3rd. Was it this year? this year Well, we, we talked like something, something like November, uh, or, or December was when we recorded, but we I would release it January 3rd.

2:05 Yeah, that So it's, it's almost a year. So I think we can actually ask you, how has your year been? been an interesting year. Um, both, uh, Bitcoin and, uh, Bitcoin wise for Jan three and personally as well. So where do I start? Um, 3 wise, released on Jan 3, the day, the day we, we, uh, we, uh, you released this, our last, uh, well, our first recording was, uh, when we released Aqua, the wallet. And, what a release. We, uh, It's grown organically to about 45,000 downloads. We haven't marketed it, uh, and actually spent on marketing. We've done it just in tweets and, and, and, and, um, and social media stuff.

2:48 And it's grown organically because it's, uh, it's, it's actually a fantastic wallet. It's a, it's a go-to wallet for, uh, for newcomers, onboarding new people. And it's going to be big in Latin America because of its USDT exposure. I know us Bitcoin Maximists are not really so much into USDT, but the truth is that USDT usage is much bigger in Latin America than in the US. Bitcoin usage. So, we have to somehow leverage that in Bitcoin's favor. So, they want USDT, they want US exposure, and to actually get US, USD exposure, the real thing, it's difficult for a lot of them, digitally and physically.

3:31 So the next best or even better is apparently a USDT tether and so we can offer that but the best thing is we do it on Bitcoin rails, we do it on liquid, not on ERC 20, Tron or any of that stuff. What's genius about the wallet is we use atomic swaps thanks to bolts to, so we can transfer, someone can transfer their USDT on any shitcoin rail into our wallet. AquaWallet, and it will come out as Bitcoin liquid. So it's one way of just, uh, of just moving more stuff onto Bitcoin. So it's a, it's a shit kind of refinery Precisely that, yes, yes, and we're trying to drive Bitcoin adoption because when people see, uh, so the face, the, uh, the face of the wallet is that we have a savings account, that's your normal Bitcoin main chain, and you have Bitcoin on liquid, which is your liquid and lightning account, and then your USDT account, which, so the liquid, uh, spending, sorry, you have your, Savings account, spending account, and USDT account.

4:34 And you can swap between one another with fees that are getting better using bolts, atomic swaps, uh, Um, and it's, it's, it's basically what we're trying to, what we're trying to onboard the next billion people with. It's, you know, we have to make, we have to make Bitcoin user friendly. Uh, it's, I think it's become, thanks to innovations like Aqua and Liquid and, um, what we need to make as, as, as the slogan is when you open the wallet sometimes, something that your grandmother can use. Excellent. And you're a frequent user of the Aqua wallet. Like, look, you've used it more than I I mean, the instant it came out, I downloaded it just out of like, hey, let's, let's, let's try this.

5:15 I mean, you gave us the preview. So I knew I had to give it a try. And yeah, I'm a big fan of bolts. Generally, like, I read a couple of lightning nodes now. And bolts is always my go to if I need to get in and out of anything. Uh, through liquid. And so aqua having that built in already, the, the, the only one UX problem that it's not even a problem, it's just that it's slightly slower than other lightning wallets because of the, of the bolts swap. Well, we'll work on that. That's the way we are going to, on the next, the next, the next spending round we're going to actually focus because we are focused on more development and maybe a little bit of marketing. So, yeah, it's always, we're always trying to improve it. And, uh, when we released it, it was still kind of still in its beta form, so it's always going to be, it's always going to be improved.

6:00 And so we're going to let the market help us out with, uh, with, with how, how, uh, how it can be improved. Well, no, but just, just, just to actually, the, the user report on this from me is that it's, it's worked great. It's just that, it's just that you have to, to sit there at the merchant for. 30 seconds or something, uh, uh, in the worst case to, for the transaction to go through, but, but it, the thing that I've liked is that it's, it's actually something that is, it's 12 words back, but you don't have to, to, uh, manage your channels or something, so it does make it And for someone like me, look, I'm not tech friendly at all. I mean, okay, I am more than more than the average person, but really not compared to the average Bitcoin and maybe less. So I've never opened up a lightning channel. I could if I wanted to, I do run an umbrella at home, but that's how tech I am.

6:40 I have to use a built built built up a node to run. So I run a node, but it's not a real node. I mean, it's a node, sorry, umbrella, but it's still a node. It's more than average. Yeah. And, but I've ne I, I've never opened up a lightning channel. I wouldn't be able to do it from scratch. I would probably need, uh, help from a fellow Bitcoin on how to do that. So I have to rely on such technologies. And so something like, so if I re run back to where I was when I first got onto Bitcoin 2017, uh, I had, someone had to explain to me how to buy Bitcoin on Coinbase and then how to take it off Coinbase and put it into my wallet and secure my 12, 12 words or 24 words. And hope, and then I didn't have that person to teach me that not to buy anything else.

7:26 I went, you know, loose and bought whatever else there was on Coinbase because that's what you do is as a, as a big, as a, as a novice to crypto. So. Um, anyway, going back to the thing, the user, the, uh, wallets have, they've improved a lot since then, I think, and I think, you know, big, big leaps from, uh, from people like, uh, like Jan3 for Aqua wallets, and I see some other very good wallets out there, is only going to speed up adoption, and that's what we want to do. Is actually help that we want to help the individual. Bitcoin is all about individual sovereignty. It's about individual financial sovereignty, and the wallet is the best thing to do. Of course, we want to take your, your keys off. You want to take your Bitcoin off into cold storage, but you need to transact your Bitcoin. You need to have, and everyone has, most people have a moola phone.

8:08 That's what's gonna give you financial sovereignty. That's how you can spend your Bitcoin. But you can also spend your Bitcoin without a phone. But we're not gonna get to that Well, and you can, and I mean, the other thing is, it's the, it's the opposite approach, when I hear that, uh, you know, it's got the USDT rails and all this, you're, you're helping people to save. Yes, exactly. They see the savings account and we open up their eyes to like, okay, wait, so the savings account in Bitcoin, what, what's that Bitcoin liquid and lightning spending account? And then all of a sudden USCT, they have it for USCT, but then they see how they say, okay, but then the savings, okay, we might as well swap it into Bitcoin for saving. And then they'll see their savings go up over time and they'll put more in there and more. There we go. Adoption.

8:49 Magic internet money. Yeah. And speaking of like, so this wallet was released a year ago and I recently saw the money electric, uh, documentary on HBO. Which featured a lot of you and Teach them more of Samson. and Peter Todd. I got roped into that by joining Jam 3. Yeah, yeah, but there's great footage of you drinking espressos Oh, good, good, good. As long as it's just espressos. I only saw espressos. Anyway, the whole thing is, it was filmed during your travels with Samson about a year ago. So, and we're, We're seeing the fruits of, of what you did there right now.

9:30 Like we're seeing Maya Parbhoe for instance, who we had on for like two months she's great. Yeah. uh, she's great. And I think she's actually got a chance of So she introduced us. The story was that, uh, last November, was it last November? I'm, that was Timelines are difficult. you don't, yeah, just to clarify. So Maya Parbhoe is a presidential going to come to that. So I dunno, time for me. So since, since we last spoke, Oh yeah, I guess my daughter was just born after we spoke. And so yeah, my second child. A lot has happened, so I'm trying to get the dates together, but yeah, we, Maya, Maya introduced Jan 3 to the president of Suriname.

10:12 Uh, Samson and Ben went out to Suriname, um, and that was, I'm trying to remember the date, but that's really irrelevant at this point. And Maya was the one who did the introduction, it was all touch and go, yes the president's going to see you, no he's not going to see you, then we met with another minister, but the president's not going to see you, but then finally they met the president. And they tried to, we tried to tell 'em the story, how Bitcoin, as we usually do, if we get a, uh, a hookup with a, with a, with a, with a, a high level politician is how Bitcoin can help you and your, and your, and your citizens. What you can do with, how Bitcoin can actually progress things further and how, that's how we sell Bitcoin. We're not, you know, we're trying to tell them that Bitcoin, that we know that Bitcoin doesn't need politicians, but politicians will end up needing Bitcoin.

10:56 And we're trying to tell them that, give them a little piece of the future. And, um, yeah, the reception was okay, they were talking about maybe some strategic reserve, uh, Bitcoin reserve, 1 percent of their, of their, of their treasury, something like this, blah, blah, blah. But while this happened, Maya was the one who introduced us, she's like, you know what, I don't really like what's going on here, I'm going to take things into my own hands and I'm going to run for president. And now there's, yeah. So it's her her own, of course, she just decided, I'm doing this, yeah, and obviously we're completely fully supporting her, yeah. She's, I mean, she's great. She's, uh, she's, uh, we wish, you know, we're gonna, we're trying to support her as much as we can and we wish her all the best because we need more, we need more Myers out there. Absolutely.

11:36 And, and speaking of politics, we just, uh, Trump was just reelected in the U S reelected. Is that the correct term for when? Yeah. And, uh, consecutively, but, consecutively, but non consecutively reelected, uh, and you may think this or that about that, but the Bitcoin price thought something yeah, Bitcoin oil always wins, so. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think it's interesting though that the, uh, the entourage of people he has surrounded himself with, uh, here, and we have Bitcoiners, uh, it like just one Kevin Bacon number away from the White House now, so Samson met with RFK Jr.

12:19 Uh, this was at the Bitcoin conference. Not, not the Nashville one, but early in the year somewhere. Oh, I think it was the last year. Oh, my Oh, no, Miami. Sorry, you met in Miami as well. So does Sam. Yeah, you did. Yeah, exactly. And he's, he's becoming understanding what Bitcoin is about. And obviously Trump is a big move from Trump to talk about Bitcoin, to openly talk about it and use it on his platform. Obviously, he's, he's He's doing it to improve his voter base. You understand that about 80 million Americans own some form of crypto, and he realizes that that's an individual voter base that he wants you to tap into, and if you're going to on crypto, yeah, we will crap on crypto when you want to.

13:07 Uh, if you're negative towards crypto and bitcoin, then you're going to lose a lot of voters, so I think he picked up on that. He has two of his sons, Baron and Erik, who are both into bitcoin. Not too sure how maximalists they are, but I'm sure they helped persuade him. And he was talking about, yeah, he was talking about things like self, openly talking about self custody, which is huge. And a sitting, a former sitting American president, now president elect, is talking about the right to self custody, that is huge. and self, and a strategic bitcoin reserve, which, to be honest, I mean, that's what's, uh, that's going to, you know, Set off a huge, uh, game theoretic, uh, effect, but it's not, I mean, it's gonna, not the best for the individual, but it's good for adoption.

13:59 Put it that way. Yeah, it's good For number grow up is fantastic. Yeah. Number of, yeah, and not only the the obvious number, as number goes up, then people start to pay attention and you know, everyone always has always done. That's the number one adoption, uh, indicate, not indicator, sorry. Um, uh, factor is how, how you got in because number go up. So Yeah, one of the numbers that went up is Google searches for Bitcoin. It already went up quite a lot, and yeah, it's amazing. So, These journeys, like what countries did you visit again? Like we're in Slovenia now, there's a neighboring country to this one, uh, Liechtenstein, not too far from here.

14:42 It's in the middle of, uh, Switzerland and I was there last year. I spoke to Ha um, well, I was there for a big, uh, not Bitcoin, sorry. It's called a pr. It's for the, um, lemme restart that. It was for an Austrian economic conference. Yearly conference. I forgot the name of the Austrian economists that they named the conference of some German name I can't pronounce. Uh, every year they hot, eh? No, definitely not Hopper. Someone, someone's not with us today. Hopper's definitely very alive. Alive and, there we go. It was Hopping, Hopping out.

15:24 There we go. it down. There, boy. Yeah, we'll be fine with that. We'll be Okay. Uh, Anyway, forget about the name, um, it was, it's organized by the cousin of the, of the, of the reigning king, uh, prince, it's, uh, it's a principality. Prince Hans Adam's cousin, Prince Michael and his, I don't know if it's brother or another cousin, Prince Filip, are the ones, Prince Michael is the, uh, the president and founder of the Austrian Economics Foundation of something in Liechtenstein, organizes the yearly conference. And last year it was about private money. So they were arguing the case for Bitcoin, for gold, for, uh, for Fiat and A Little visit. And, um, and that's where, uh, I, I got the chance to, to speak to some, oh, there's my son.

16:12 There's a chance I got to speak to some of the, some of the royal family. And I spoke to Prince Michael and he owns Bitcoin. I got to speak to hands, Adam, and he, I think he signaled that he owns Bitcoin before in the past, or it does now. So, there are some other monarchs out there who own Bitcoin. And talking about monarchs, um, last year we found out that, um, last year we found out that the Kingdom of Bhutan, you heard about this news, were, were mining Bitcoin. I want to say secretly because their reply was that no one asked. They were mining Bitcoin for about five years. Using the hydroelectricity capacity, which is amazing, shows you that, uh, it's a kingdom, it's a monarchy.

16:55 They understand the need for hard money. They have, they understand what low, low, low time preference is. What's, uh. What's uh, uh, good decisions into the, of making good decisions for the future. And so they took it upon themselves to transform some of their excess energy from, from times of the year when they have excess, uh, hydroelectricity to mine Bitcoin. And whenever that's stranded, whatever, I don't know exactly the energy mix there, but they're mining Bitcoin. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Bhutan is one of those countries that had a, has a really low GDP, right? Maybe was, to be honest, I'm not too sure how the average person is, is, is, is fa uh, failing them.

17:36 But it is not that you hear much about, um, I try to, I I should have made an effort to look more into it, but, yeah. I, you know what? Let's lower look Bhutan. Yeah. Wait. Yeah. We'll need to look. Read up on Bhutan. That's the homework after this, There we go.

19:21 And so what's kind of the strategic game plan for Jan 3, 4, say the coming year, something like this? Any areas of focus that you're able to talk about? I'd say the focus is still heavily on latam. That's where we see Bitcoin adoption as the ripest. Uh, for either, either for legal tender or for strategic Bitcoin, um, reserve allocation. So, we are, we are speaking to several nation states and nothing is, nothing is clear at this point. But, uh, there is, there is talk out there. So, I can't mention anything because I'm, yeah, no, no.

20:05 This is, this is why this is the hard to discuss because like half One, one thing, one thing is, you know, we're noticing a lot more talk about it, a lot more interest, a lot more people talking, a lot more people getting involved out there, a lot more Bitcoiners reaching out to politicians, a lot more initiatives. It's fantastic. Those Bitcoiners are hardworking people. And they understand that, uh, yeah, Bitcoin, it's, we know, this is Jan 3 ethos is that, yes, we understand that Bitcoin is a bottom up strategy, it's a grassroots network effort that you can't, that you can't stop essentially, but, and as I said before, it's politicians, um, that doesn't really care about politicians, but politicians have to care about Bitcoin at some point, so we see that, uh, that we have to go and speak.

20:48 And spread the word of Bitcoin and we can leverage politicians in, in Bitcoin's favors. So it could kind of be, it kind of, it's kinda a bit like Bitcoin doesn't have money for marketing, so we have to find a way to market Bitcoin. And since there's a lot of government out there, we're gonna use that to our favor and teach 'em about what Bitcoin, how Bitcoin. It's going to shape and change the future for the better, and tell them how it can help them. The benefits of mining, of self custody, of, uh, of, of, um, store of value, media of exchange and everything, and, and hopefully they'll understand. And at the day, if you just get a picture, a photo up with a, with a, with a president, prime minister, minister, with a, a big bitcoin, that is good marketing for bitcoin.

21:32 So, that's what we're trying to achieve. See, everything is good for Yeah. And on top of that, of course, uh, Acro Wallet as well. So that's our bottom up initiative. Uh, and it's, uh, the numbers speak for themselves and we're, we're, we haven't even, um, gotten started yet. So it's, it's, it's, we're, we've got a, we've got a lot of, a lot of work ahead of us, but it's looking good. Yeah, so you are kind of taking this double ended strategy, right? Like that it's bottom up through the wallet, but top down some top down. Yeah. And at the moment, what's kind of, um, In the bottom up approach, uh, uh, Aqua can't actually see anything, like, in terms of, uh, volumes, as I understand it, because it's, it's self, it's actually a self custody wallet, the users hold their own keys, Open source self custody, yep.

22:20 It's fantastic. So in terms of the number of users, do you see there being like, more important to get more money into Bitcoin or more people into Bitcoin? That's a good question. Well, I think more people, of course. Yeah, but more money does help the price, but more people helps humanity. That's a very good answer. That's a good, that's a good answer. But also one could argue that more money in Bitcoin makes the money better. And that both can, both can help the other. Both can be true at the same time. Yeah. Not to drive us too technically, mostly out of that, yeah, kind of, I think we sometimes dip our toes in the technical stuff, but I think we'll keep this in the philosophical space for now.

23:08 Um, the, one of the issues that's going to come up eventually is that people aren't going to, individuals aren't going to be able to take, self custody of their Bitcoin or use it in a fully self sovereign way, the, the total number of transactions that any one person is allocated over a 70 year time frame, mathematically, then mostly competitive blocks is two per person. Yes, do you see any kind of role here for building up kind of this infrastructure for people to be able to sort of self custody their bitcoin but they're not necessarily going to use the base layer and thereby they're not going to run into a problem where they can't get into the next block, something like this?

23:50 very good question. How Finney foresaw this years ago? Um, God bless him. Uh, he said something on the lines of that it would be in some time in the future with when Bitcoin is, uh, is heavily adopted, that it would just be big. Big reserves of banks or institutions that will be doing, that will be transacting billion dollars worth or whatever what value it is at that point on the main, on the main chain. So we'll be left using a layer 2, layer 3, maybe layer 4, whatever. I don't know what's going to go happen, but I think the principle of what is Bitcoin is that it's hard money and you can't print more of it and that still stays true.

24:31 And as long as it's connected to the main, to the main chain and not in some, um, some, something else, uh, if, if, if, if it's done properly, like liquid or lightning, I mean, which it will be, that's where the adoption will happen. And that's where you need to, uh, to, to, to increase the adoption numbers and to increase the speed of Bitcoin, not by changing the main chain. The main chain is perfect. In our eyes, my eyes anyway. Yeah, I, uh, the, um, lightning, uh, often lightning network gets criticized, uh, every now and then for being too, for being centralized and like it's custodial, uh, more and more custodial and not very many people run their own lightning nodes because it's damn hard to run, run a lightning note.

25:19 But I, I still think that, uh, custodial lightning is still better than banking because it's way harder to do fractional reserve. And that's just another thing with, um, with a user experience, improvement of user experience, and the same thing will happen with Lightning Channels. I think you will get a lot more, um, corporations opening up Lightning Channels around the world and you'll get, uh, but hopefully aligning with the ethos of what is Bitcoin. You will get a lot more Lightning adoption. And Liquid as well, it's a federation, you have about 10 to 15 companies that have to agree to that. So that will increase as well and become even more decentralized. And also that's Li Liquid also is gonna help, help, helps the transition from the traditional finance tradify as people like to call it, to, uh, to uh, Bitcoin finance, to the real, to the real finance.

26:09 Uh, as you can, you can, you can financialize a lot of the stuff that's already, that's already, that's existing in Tradify you can do with liquid. So, that's one way of, of, because we also, we don't want that to be a shock in the system. We don't want to just say all of a sudden, I mean, markets, when they are left to themselves and when there's no interventionism, do go through, um, shocks, moments of, uh, of, uh, deflation and this has happened, it happened under the gold standard, but it corrects itself and it improves. And there's always a period of growth and a contraction period and people, and then it builds up again and contracts.

26:51 This was always something that happened under the gold standard, but since fiat was introduced, it happens more, but then now, not happens more, but it happens more extreme, and they intervene more, and now we're at the point where they don't, they're intervening, so they're not letting it naturally, um, Pullback, as it should do, having that massive correction. The last massive correction that we had was 2008. We haven't had, okay, we, 2020 was, uh, with, with, with the pandemic was something, but, uh, it was not done. it wasn't done naturally, basically. And there was a lot of interventionism went in, a lot of stimulus went into this. And this is the thing, this is a problem about, about, about fiat is, is that it's highly manipulated and you're just kicking the can further down the road.

27:36 And now the, uh, debt bubble has gone to some insane amounts of debt around the world. it's, uh, like 2008, uh, the, the, um, that was mitigated by bailing out the it wasn't a full correction it wasn't a full correction. No, it was but it was big, but it was not, it was not like nothing that would have happened if there were, if no such thing as, uh, as what, if we couldn't intervene. No, and if this too big to fail mentality keeps going, like what will inevitably happen is that everything becomes a zombie company. And then all of a sudden nothing works. And that's just what we're seeing right now. Like the stimulus doesn't work.

28:16 It doesn't, people's lives are not getting easier anymore because they're doing these things. So there's, we've been on it's just accentuating the, the, the, what you call it, the, the Cantillon effect. As just making properties. More appealing, therefore out of reach for the average person, and which is a clear, clear trend we've seen over the last 20 years, since the last financial crisis, and it's only getting worse, and the more they print, the more they intervene, the more money they put into the system, um, the more it goes into properties for the richer people, and Obviously I'm not blaming on rich people, that's what you would do if you had the money and the ability, but you can't, you know, property is not like Bitcoin, um, property isn't, real estate is not like Bitcoin.

29:06 Now we finally have an opportunity where we can actually have real property, and that, and that is you can actually buy a fraction, a fraction, it's not even a fraction, so you can buy a bit of property which is yours, no one else's, indisputable, technically tax intervention free, It doesn't matter, it doesn't care about jurisdictions, it can exist anywhere, in your head, so, they can't tax your head essentially. so, that's, so that's why it's so powerful, so, um, yeah, at the end of the day, Bitcoin is gonna take, it's gonna, it's, this is what we, what we foresee is like, as adoption grows, Normal folk.

29:47 I say normal folk. The average folk is gonna, is gonna see the, the need to buy a Bitcoin. It's 'cause it's their only way of getting property. Only way of securing some sort of financial, um, security for the future. And that's gonna help, uh, grow. It's gonna help them for the future. It's gonna help, uh, their children, it's gonna help their community. And in the long run, that's, uh, it's going to make properties actually less appealing. And so at one point you might get to the point where properties will go down to just their utility value. Yes, and this is, it already is if you don't nominate in Bitcoin, like, and that's, that's the thing, like, that's how we put it in the new book, It's like, if you, If you practice doing something, do you usually get better or worse at that thing you're practicing?

30:34 And of course you get better, like, most of the time. So why aren't all prices going down forever? That should be the obvious follow up question. But people live in this fantasy world where they think that I think that their houses are actually going up in value, but that's not, it's down in value, yes. the value. Yeah, and so everything else becomes money instead. It's a Big everything bubble. And the only way to see that happening is by using, is by seeing it through a bitcoin lens. Otherwise you're not, you're falling for it and you can't see that it's happening. You need bitcoin to you have to look at it the other way, completely.

31:16 The inverse, as your book is called, yes. It's, it's, it's counterintuitive almost to how we're being taught, how we're being indoctrinated to taught, but we're not really taught what money is at school. We're not taught how the system works. And you're taught that, well you're taught in economics class, in standard economics class, which is Keynesianism, is that inflation is good for growth. They think that's because, but then they don't actually tell you how inflation comes about. They don't talk about increasing money supply. And that also means that you're, they're taking away value from um, um, from your hard earned property. It is, it is people's time and money. Yeah, people's time, people's energy.

31:57 Isn't it that there's a misconception between inflation as actually the increase in prices versus the increase in money supply? Because there are things that in the low level increase certain yeah, you have uh, you have um, Um, natural disasters that will increase, obviously some resources get, um, food, supplies get cut off, so there's a net, but that's, that's a very small percentage of inflation really. No, but they, they, they're deliberately trying to, to, uh, uh, dilute the word because they, they, uh, inflation is officially mess measured from some basket, like a CPI. The CPI basket is, uh, has been, it's, it's, those are the official numbers, but the way they measure the CPI is, uh, is not actually correct, not very correct.

32:46 Uh, they, they, they, they pick a basket of goods at that given time, for example, so if something, uh, when those baskets of goods, if the average price of that basket goes up, inflation goes up, then things go in and out of the basket. That's the yeah, and there's no real estate or exactly. No, there's no, so you're like your staple items. I say that, uh, I think one example was like, you know, you have your steak. You're beefing there and that goes up. Let's say it goes double in price. People can't afford beef anymore. So they go for, uh, for, for chicken. Impossible Or they go for soy, some soy products, some replacement protein, which only goes up, let's say 10 percent or something like that.

33:28 So they replace the, the, the item. So they'll take beef out and put, put soy in. So Now I read a Rothbard book on the flight to Amsterdam, it's that like a month back, it's called what has government done to our money. And he puts it so clearly, like, the bill, the monetary bill was first a receipt for something. Like it was a receipt for a commodity you put in a bank, usually gold. And if you don't get that amount of gold back when you turn in the receipt, then someone stole gold from you. It's that easy. And so inflation is always theft.

34:11 Someone is always stealing something. And this is what They don't understand that when you Trusting a third party with something and they give, okay, they give you back a receipt for that. That item, that third party, and then you can go back and claim your, your item with that note, but not everyone goes back and claims at the same time. So that third party realizes that they can start doing stuff, like say they have more of that thing than they actually do and they start lending it out and stuff. So then, yeah, that's how, that's how humans, humans always, always looking for a way around. And the thing is that system would have actually been completely fine if it weren't for interventions, if it weren't for central banks, right?

34:52 It would have corrected itself yes, there would have been failures, of course people would have lost, but the system wouldn't have been able to because it was backed by gold at the end of the day. People would have come claiming their gold. that's yeah. yeah. And banks will, that's what happened. Like, uh, in the 19th century, for instance, the free banking, banking, banking, the free banking, can, back in the days you could say, where's my gold? Now you say, where's my money, but what money? Yeah, exactly. The, the way I see it, the money in your, on your bank account is a two outta three multisig between you, the bank and the state. And the state really has an extra override key at the end of the day too. Yes. And they can print more of it.

35:33 Yeah, it's very, it's, it's, it's not pretty and look what's happening today, but we have a, we have a solution, which is great. Great Have you thought about if fractional reserve banking is still going to be possible on Bitcoin? I think there, um, some people will still and a full, I think a country that's fully adopted. It. No, I think there's nothing morally wrong with it, as long as the customer knows that it's going on. So if it's transparent, so if the bank says, okay, you can open an account here, but we're gonna use some of your bitcoin and buy microstrategy stock with it, or whatever, or chairs, whatever they're buying, fine art, real estate, then the problem is that the client doesn't know that this is going on.

36:23 that's the question. When you sign, when you buy a buy, when you open an account with a fiat bank, is this in the, in the small print? I would assume it would be, in fact, yeah. No, the money printing is Money printing is print, and, you know, there's nothing, if you open a bank account in Sweden, there's nothing about the petrodollar, for I just had a minor aha moment. No, no, no, that is the difference. It's that the fractional reserve itself, as in the lending, can still happen. But since you don't have the money printer behind it anymore, then it loses all the power. You can't leverage it nine times, you can't leverage it ten times.

37:03 Three times, you know, At the end of the day, if you are under pure, let's say the whole world theoreticals under the Bitcoin standard, um, fraction was you would, lending would become less of a thing because your value of Bitcoin will keep on going up. So you'd be more incentivized to save it. And so you want, uh, borrowing would be, would be, would be less prevalent, much less prevalent, because you can actually save for the stuff that you want, like a house, everything will be reduced to this utility value, will not be as financialized or commoditized as it is today, and inflated like it is today, and it will just be to its own advantage. Base value, utility, whatever it's, whatever, you know, um, how, how it should be valued. And things will get cheaper over time.

37:45 So, the need for borrowing would, would, would, wouldn't really happen. It would be done that, of course, people will need some last minute loans and, uh, and, and for, for, for some unexpected, uh, circumstances. But then they, yeah, that's, that's pretty much it, I, I reckon. So. yeah, and the thing is, the interest rates are low now, because they're artificially low, but on a free market, like, sure, the interest rates are high on a Obviously higher, probably, on a Bitcoin standard, but in a free market, interest rates fall over time, because if I can give you a loan with a better interest rate, you will choose my bank instead free market, that's great, yeah.

38:30 yeah, yeah, so that's how it's, they're supposed to go down, like, and they're also falling to the marginal That's it, exactly. Like, yeah, uh, so this can happen naturally. We can have a very sound, ethical, um, borrowing and lending system. It does not, like, borrowing and lending are not inherently unethical. It's the, it's the fractional reserve thing. It's And then as you pointed out, where you understand if you're actually lending, I mean, if you're opening up an account where you don't know if that account, if that bank is partaking in fractional reserve or not. Now with education and understanding what Bitcoin is, people will know what fractional reserve banking is. And so maybe you don't wanna open up an account with a, with a bank that, that partakes in fractional reserve and you want to open up an account with a bank that does one-to-one.

39:15 I didn't know. 'cause this goes back to the point of where, uh, where main chain is going. It's gonna be unreachable to a lot of people. But that's why we have layer two solutions like Bitcoin, I mean, sorry, like lightning and, uh, and liquid. Uh, but you're only gonna deal with ones that are doing it properly, correctly and that are not giving you paper, Bitcoin, or, you know, one, uh, a 1, 1 2, whatever ratio they're gonna give you one to one. That's what you want. That's what you're gonna be looking for. That's what the market will want. So, at the end of the day, yeah, it's going to make, I think, a fractional reserve market, uh, will be something that may be left to those who want a bit more risk, and I don't think, I think maybe with education people understand that if you just work hard and save and build a family and have a better education, you're not going to have to take on that risk.

40:06 absolutely love it. And how do you think this all gets there? How do you, how do you think all this whole system unwinds? And what will be Bitcoin's role in that? seeing it right now. I think, um, with Presidents of the United States of America openly talking about Bitcoin. Let's see what he says when he's actually sworn into office in January. Let's see what happens afterwards. Politicians say one thing, then, you know, they don't go through with it. But I hope that this time he's, he's serious about Bitcoin. And I think I, I don't really, I have, I have some reasons to doubt it because, you know, politicians are politicians, but at the end of the day, you know, It's an increasing vote, amount of votes, and a lot of people understanding how the system works, so it's, it's almost, uh, political suicide, even though he doesn't have a mandate to protect, uh, he does have, you know, he does have, uh, a republican party and, uh, and a legacy to, to protect, so hopefully that will lower his time preference.

41:08 And who knows, maybe he can introduce some of his, uh, some of his, uh, family members. That's how the democracy works into, into being. That's how the Clintons and the, and the No, no, yeah. The um, and the, and the bushes. Sorry. That's the one there. So maybe the, the, uh, the Trumps can be a, uh, a, a, uh, a, a political dynasty of good. Uh, yeah, but the other thing, sorry about seeing what, I really hope, because right, we see right now the S& P is already the, the global, um, Equity markets are touching record highs again when the reality is, is that people out there are suffering.

41:49 Um, average people out there are not having a good time at all. So, I, it's, it's pretty obvious. And if, if, uh, To some people it's not that obvious actually, but to a lot, to a lot, to a lot of people who, uh, who actually filter through what's, uh, what's fed to us through the media and actually look and just see how many, what the quality of jobs are out there and the amount of people that are taking on two jobs or more and the way that rent is House prices, inflation, everything is skyrocketing. There's something that's going to give at some point. And that's not reflective of equity markets. People think, oh yeah, if stocks are up then that means the economy is good.

42:32 But the real economy is really, really in a shit position right now. But then at the same time that also makes people understand what Bitcoin is because they understand why am I having such a bad time. Why have I, you know, I've done everything right. I went, I got myself a degree, maybe two degrees, maybe even three degrees. And, uh, and I got myself some job and so and so. I've got myself a job. That pays even six digits, but I'm still barely, barely, uh, paying, paying off, uh, surviving month to month, what the hell is going on? And that hopefully won't result in some big deflationary shock, which it's always the case, but I, I do believe in shocks of the system and how that's awake people up.

43:15 But I want to make, we want to make sure that we educate people about Bitcoin and, and it's a way that you can start stacking and saving for the future. So when that shock does happen, that you're prepared for it. Yeah, and deflation, like, people are afraid of it, but if you look at, uh, computing Cons. Constantly deflate. Constantly that has Constantly deflating, even against fiat, and it's one of the most successful What's the law again? Um, Mo law. Mo the Mo's Law. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. Uh, Jeff, Jeff Booth , Jeff Booth, uh, book, um, the Price of Tomorrow where it talks deflation, uh, everything until, you know, it doesn't even talk about Bitcoin until the very end.

43:56 It's, it's, it's a brilliant book. Yeah. That's, that's, that's a good book to show to people who, uh, you think, here's a really good book and they don't really realize it's about Bitcoin and then they read it to the end and it's like, oh, okay. Yeah, It's a good No, it's great. It's Yeah, exactly. It's a good one. things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If Trump wants to be taken serious, like he should release was on day one release, Ross Ulbricht, For sure. For sure. I, I, yeah. Free Ross, 100%. That's, he promised. He said He would do it. he said he promised a lot of things. Let's see how many there is, but I think. Yeah, Ross should be freed. I look forward to meeting him one day at a Bitcoin conference, shaking his hand, and that would be just like a beautiful moment.

44:41 Because of the history, what he has gone through, I'm, yeah, I think, you know, for a lot of Bitcoiners, that's going to be historic. Well, as long as this does happen, it's also not the, the only major victory for freedom fighters in the, in the recent times. Julian Assange got free, and I mean, that was, that was another That was another great moment. Yeah.

46:06 So there is, there is, there is liberty movements out there. You know, libertarianism is on the rise. I get it. It, you could say that it, it's disjointed, can never agree with each other. That's the point, isn't it? Yeah, I was just gonna say, uh, uh, but I'll settle for classical liberalism as well, you know, less dependence on the state, but you know, we have to find a middle ground at some point and that's what we've gotta reach towards. We can't just struck people with full on, full on libertarianism, you know, that's, uh, ease into it, you know, that's, uh. That's, that's, that's the goal really, Yeah, I think, uh, like, I've always viewed, uh, One of the biggest risks with democracy is just that, when you have individualists, they all think different things, therefore they don't form big parties, and the more collectivist you are, the bigger the party you form, because you don't care about what the party think.

47:02 You care about belonging to that's where democracy in, in, in many of its shapes and forms around the world are failing because, uh, they rely too much on a two party or big, uh, big party system, and their voting, electoral system is, are always flawed. They may look correct on the, on, on the surface, like take for example the First Past the Post in the UK. Uh, it looks very correct. It looks like, oh, that's a good way for small parties to, to, to, to rise up. Then you look at, you need to do simple statistics. I'm not very mathematical, but you just look at the simple, and then you realize that it's not good for the popular vote. So it's only going to, it only suppresses smaller parties, and this is what's happening all over, most places, a lot of places in the world.

47:43 But you have other pockets of, of, of, of, of, of where democracy is working to some extent, and I would, Say that Switzerland is one of them. That's direct democracy. So the political party is not as important and you're just, it's mainly driven by, um, by policy and that's done more in a decentralised, bottom up fashion. Where your vote actually matters. Um, it's not perfect but it's definitely much better than a lot of other places. Yeah, there's a great Veritasium video about why democracy doesn't work from a mathematical perspective. So, strictly mathematics, but this is why it can't work. Because it can never, like, get the most popular candidate, really, or the most popular No, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's crazy that, but if you look at maths, yeah, as you said, it's, it's, it's pretty obvious.

48:32 But at the end of the day, most, most of the world are in the belief that democracy equals freedom. Yeah, and that it's, uh, it's the one word that is still taboo for almost bad about democracy, I get, uh, I get insulted and whatever. But I'm saying no, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm 100 percent liberty freedom. But that comes with responsibility. Freedom is a lesson in responsibility and democracy is, is a lesson in, um, nanny care. It's a, it's a lesson in, uh, you get, you get given choice, you get given a platter. You don't have any choice of what's going to be put on that plate, but you have to pick one of those things.

49:16 And you don't know if one of those things is poison or not. Uh. No, and, and, uh, but you see these movements, I, I think like one, one of the things that the left has been, uh, relying on for a long time is that the youth will always vote in favor of the left. More rebellious, you know, the Che Guevara's, but, but that's not true anymore. Like the younger, the younger, uh, the voting base, like the more libertarian they are, like they are becoming, um, yeah, I think the trend is that they're becoming, a lot of them are quite sadly becoming quite nihilist because they don't see no hope in the future, so that's kind of sad, but there's a lot of young libertarians, a growing number of people understanding what bitcoin is because they're tech savvy and they understand what private keys are, public and private keys, and that's super important, and And I think this is largely due to the internet and Bitcoin.

50:11 We, we, yeah, those, those two things have like provided people with this mirror and this lens to view the world and themselves through. Yeah. That, that more truly reflects what's actually going on in the world. Hey, uh, this, this is, uh, absolutely awesome, uh, just the, the optimism here. I mean, it's, it's funny, like, I, I, I personally felt quite relieved when, when Trump won, uh, and I mean, that's not going to be a popular opinion, uh, especially where, where I'm, I'm based in Finland or anything, or even Canada, but, but the, but the, but the thing is, it's, it's, it's crazy. It, it really was a case where one side So, Was actually wanting to just increase government control, increase, increase the, increase the control, increase the surveillance, increase the censorship and all this, and the other side wasn't, and, and, and so I'm, I mean, Are, are you hopeful that, that over the next, uh, four years, and, and even beyond, that, uh, we can kind of get over some kind of hump, divisions are really strong right now.

51:09 I'd say, uh, what hap, what hap what's happening in America? The, if you were a Democrat and you were one of these, uh, you are a Harris supporter, you would think that the Trump guides are indoctrinated. Now here we're sitting, we're less, we're, we're saying, okay, we're more Trump supporters. We think they, they're more indoctrinated. That's the point. Difficult to convince the other side that they've been, that they, that they've been, uh, fooled. Um, but the, you just look at numbers. You see that more people are going now from being a Democrat, being, um, woke or whatever it is, to being libertarian. I see more of the trend going the other way, I think. So I think if you, yeah, the numbers, I think they give me some hope that people are waking up to these crazy leftist policies.

51:54 There was a move before, pre COVID, pre all that, and during COVID, that there was, um, a lot of, Groupthink and, uh, and, and, and, and, what you call it, um, collectivism happening, but we realize that people woke up to the dangers of that, and now individualism is, is coming up, is rising up again. So, yes, I'm hopeful, I'm hopeful that we're gonna, we're gonna mend a lot of those, uh, those fractions that are appearing, that have appeared. I, I know this, this is an old Jordan Peterson theory, and that is that, uh, the right, on the right, there's always been a very clear where the no go zone is.

52:37 Like, if you go into actual figures, Fascism and racism, then that's a no go zone, you can't do that, whatever. I think all politics are on the left side of the aisle, but that's, that's the, that's another thing. You go from an Orego zero point and then everything's to the left. But that's beside the point. But on the left, it's been more unclear where the line is drawn, like what's an okay opinion to have and not. And I think they've found out that, you know, men beating up women in the Olympics, for instance, is simply not okay in most people's minds, and mutilating the children, it's not okay, So I think they're finding out where right, and And the backlash is huge, and I'm a bit afraid of it, because like, throwing gay people off of rooftops is not a good thing either.

53:29 Like, uh I mean, all we want is our inherent natural born right to be left alone. That's that's how it should work. The, the individual is the smallest minority group. That's whose that's well put, but we're not taught that, and I think we should be taught that, and that's why I think education should be privatized. Um, but again it can't be done in a short, I think it has to come stage by stage, but I've seen efforts around, uh, like for example in Serbia, uh, we have to follow the Serbian, um, system. And luckily there's no, there's no woke stuff in there. Which is, but it's fine, it's not, it's not, I'd say a lot of the propaganda that was in there against my family has been, has been taken out and that's great and they haven't adopted any of that, or any of that cultural Marxism that's been adopted by some of the liberal west educational systems.

54:22 But, you know, it's, it's great to see being taken out and I. I think we can do a step further and make private education more affordable and raise teachers to another level. But I think in order to do that, you know, you have to, I think, government, the state has to place more resources in teachers. It's, it's a, it's a balance that you have to make sure that they pay more resources in teachers, but without it, without it affecting, um, uh, policy, uh, what they teach. They should be taught what, what, um, what the market wants, what, uh, what What, uh, the indivi, what the individuals want.

55:05 So, but I think over time then they, the teachers become, become profe a sought after profession. And that's, that's, this is what I see, that we then can go towards more of a private educational world where teachers are one of the most valued members of society and, uh, and, and, and our children are taught the right things. I don't know, I'm trying to construct in my head how the transition will happen, but this is, I mean, this is what happens along, along with Bitcoin being adopted more. Would you agree that east is the new West in terms I would say that, yes, yes, yes, yes, and no, um, yes, actually, I would, because when I moved to Serbia, I was, I moved in 2020 with my wife and son, and we've had a daughter, we had a daughter last year, so there's four of us, but during the whole COVID years, I bumped into a lot of Canadians who came up to me and they were saying, Hey, you know, we're from Canada, we're Serbian from Canada, how are you doing?

56:06 Good to meet you and stuff. Great, so how long are you here for? No, we moved back. And this happened once, twice, I think it happened about five or six times. So it was a trend. And every time they said, yeah, we just don't like what's going on in Canada anymore. So they moved to Canada in the first place to get away from communism or socialism. And now they're moving away from Canada to get back to Serbia. Because of similar things. So this is, it's so, yes, your point where East is west, west is east is true. And the, the east, where I'm from Serbia is very awake, aware of, uh, of what indoctrination is, what's, uh, what brain, what, what, what, um, what, what, uh, masculine brainwashing has can do to society.

56:49 Most of, most of the east, most of the communist block Serbia wasn't, Yugoslav wasn't really quite inside the behind Iron Curtain, but it was still heavily. Brainwashed and now we're all waking up. We're aware of that and now we see that's happening. That happened in the West. So how do you break that cycle? If that is like a real thing that people are moving, their grandparents moved to Canada and now they're moving back, is there a risk of this happening again and then moving back to Canada? Yes, it is how do we we, we, we make people more financially independent and that's where it comes back to what we're here talking about is Bitcoin is if you have the, if you have the ability to save and something that's, that can't be, um, it can't be, um, Printed away, eroded away, taken away from you.

57:39 If you have, if you, if you have something that, that, that, that, that gains a value over the future, then you're going to have security and that's going to make your life a lot more stable. You're going to plan, have longer relationships with your, you're going to have. More children, you're gonna, uh, create, invest in your, in yourself, in your family, and then that's gonna then invest in your community. And that's just gonna have a, a, a ripple effect. And that's how Civilization is born. Um, civilization is born from the Savor Investor. This is what I think I read in Hopin, his first chapter of democracy. They've gotta fill the Sav investor is what creates, uh, a ripple effect of, um, of, of, of other, other people tending to do the same thing.

58:19 And that, and they go from being, from being ch from Charles to adults, from barbarism to civilization. And that's how civilizations are born. So I think it's just a stabilizing effect. If we have hard money and we have, we are. If we're, if we're, if we have a good form of, uh, of money, then we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, uh, uh, reduce the, uh, the migrations we've had all around the world. And that's a huge issue. That's one of essential issues to why we have a lot of this populism, a lot of this, a lot of people, um. Screaming on social media about, about, about losing or winning or whatever. Um, uh, politics and elections and they make no difference at the day, but, but what's actually happening is that we have imbalance, imbalances of, uh, of, of, of, of cap, sorry, of money.

59:05 Um, so I'm trying to structure this thought over here, but it's basically fiat pockets all around the world behaving different ways and with more value in some countries and other, other country, other countries and those countries with more value. Stealing from the smaller countries, so then the smaller countries feel, uh, they need to move into the, into the, into the richer countries, and so you have this big capital, uh, sorry, human flight happening into the, into the richer companies. And, um, and people moving around everywhere. I'm going yeah, yeah. Agree. But, but yeah, the way I see it is pretty simple. Like there's barbarianism and civilization and the barbaric way of doing stuff is taking it from the other person.

59:47 And the civilized way is exchanging goods and services, uh, voluntarily and with consent. So either soldiers cross borders or, or goods and services do, and this is. This is what it's all about, like it's, the state is inherently violent since it coerces people into The less interventionism, the less coercion there is, the less taxes there is. The more the civilization, the more competitive you are, the more of a service provider you are to your citizens, the more you will attract. Better, you'll attract better behavior as well at the end of the day. Speaking, one thing back to another, how is Bitcoin adoption A lot of more people are becoming aware of it and I hear more people talking about it and I think now thanks to Trump that's going to be a big thing, especially if he starts making some big moves in it.

1:00:36 Uh, Serbia is, has great, uh, capacity for, for my, uh, technical minds. A lot of developers in Serbia, a lot of good, good core developers, uh, secretly living, living in Serbia and a lot of, a lot of Serbs. Uh, great Serbian. Bitcoin is around the world. Of course, Serbia has a big diaspora around the world. Um, I would like to see, I would like them to be more Bitcoin as in Serbia. I'd like to see adoption grow further and I'd like to people be more open about it. And I would like to see Serbia to be, uh, to, to make some big moves in Bitcoin and I'm gonna help drive that. I, I see a big potential that seia can be good for Bitcoin and obviously Bitcoin's gonna be good for Serbia and I think we'll start people's service as very cash orientated.

1:01:24 Society cash is king there. They like their privacy. Great. So. The next best, the best next best thing, the best thing there is, is Bitcoin for that. So, um, we We are natural Bitcoiners, so there will be a, there will be a big adoption. I think it's, it's education needs to, uh, needs to, needs to grow further there. And we'll do that by translating books, by getting out, speaking more about it. And I, I, I see a good, I see a good future for Bitcoin adoption in Serbia. For the world as well, Ah, yeah, of course. I'm just, that's just me being a patriotic Serb. Yeah. No, no, that was my sort of lame attempt to, I don't know, extrapolate all the way up.

1:02:04 But no, no, it's awesome to see. Serbia starts to make moves, any country starts to make the move, and if I have a big voice then, well, I say a big voice, I need to learn the language better, so if I can make, if I can make, drive some adoption there, then, you know, you'll have, it's always that whole, oh, what are they doing? Why can't we do that? And this is what we're seeing in Latin America. That's why, even in Central America, it's ripe Bitcoin adoption. Or Latin America. You see a lot of, a lot of Bitcoin, uh, crypto use in Latin America. They understand, they know what, uh, they've, they're the, they're the closest subjects to the dollars, um, uh, superiority and control. So they know they need to get away from that, but at the same time, they're the mining dollars at the same time.

1:02:50 But that's why I introduced them to Bitcoin. They get it much more instantaneously and they're also more, they've seen more inflationary shocks than any other parts of the world as well. They've been subjected to fiat, fiat scams all throughout the history, especially places like Argentina. Not that Europe is immune to it, you know, Serbia and Yugoslavia in the 90s experienced the third worst case of fiat inflation in the world, ever. But somehow we have short term memories and we don't, we don't remember that. And when cash is introduced again, it's like, yeah, cash is great. You can hide it under your mattress. So, any, uh, last words? I think this has been a great talk and we could keep going on for a while, but I think, I think we're, uh, We're running out of air in here.

1:03:36 I think like that. No, but, uh, anything else on your mind, uh, that we haven't discussed already? Or any parting words? Parting words, uh, let's, I think the Trump win was a good boost for Bitcoin. You saw that in the price. Let's keep that momentum going. We all have a part to play in this. Let's keep the adoption. Needle high, pushing, pushing on maximum because now is a good time to get people on board as the price is high and to teach them about what money is, what the values of hard money is, and the history of money. So big message out to Bitcoiners out there to keep on doing what they're doing and we're winning.

1:04:24 Fantastic. Anywhere you want to send our listeners, like online I don't really talk much about Bitcoin on my, on my, on my social media. But I have joined Nostr. Uh, prince. Yeah, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, prince, P-R-I-N-C-F-I-L-I-P. Yeah. Oh, in, in Ian? Yes. Uh, so I just joined Nasta, but I, you can follow me on, on Twitter, which is the same with the one. And I'm on, and I'm on Instagram, but you know, I know Bitcoin is not so much on Instagram. So, so follow at Prinkflip, uh, it depends how you pronounce the C . Um, yes. So fo Yeah. Follow me. Follow me on, on Austin now And, uh, Jan 3 as well, right?

1:05:07 jan3, jan3. com, dot com, dot com, something, but you can, you can, you Yeah, we'll put all the info in the But yeah, follow me, follow me on Twitter if you want to see me doing a lot of royal duties now as well, so, Yeah, yeah. yeah, thing we didn't even talk about, but that's, It's like every 20th post, there's not anymore, no, because, uh, yeah, because, uh, no, I'm now going to focus more and more Bitcoin on Nostr and, and, and much less on Twitter because of the, uh, The backlash, you get, you get, you get a lot of, a lot of very vocal, uh, people, bots, very small majority, but they, they, they make my Twitter profile look great. No, it's usually some beautiful picture of your, your family in a beautiful setting or you with some bearded old man in a robe somewhere.

1:05:56 Well, that's what we want, is we, I'm trying, I'll, uh, no, now we're going to continue the conversation, but since I became, I became a Bitcoiner, It's also the time I got married, had my, uh, created a family and understood the values of family values and traditions and, um, and how, why it is so important to have money that you can, uh, Generate, uh, generational wealth with and, and have some stability for the future. And this is something I didn't have when I got married. Uh, well, this didn't seem that bright. The future did not seem very bright for my son when he, when, when he was born and I wanted to fix that.

1:06:37 And I was searching for, for, for, for truth. And, and then I found Bitcoin. So it just happens that, you know, we're going in that direction and it's fantastic. And I, and I believe. I believe in tradition, I believe in monarchy, I believe in its low time preferences as a great form of governance. And that's another conversation. So that's what we're trying to push out there is stability, unity and a prosperous future and family values. Good luck with all of it and yeah, uh, and you for having me on again. thanks so much for coming the next chat and to the excited Mike.

1:07:19 This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Thank you for listening, and thank you Thanks guys.