How Bitcoin Backed Lending Actually Works with Martin Matejka | Bitcoin Infinity Show #212

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Martin, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Nice to have you here.

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Hi, Knud. Thanks for having me.

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Yes, I think most of our listeners do not know who you are.

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So why don't we start from the top with a TLDR on who you are and what you do?

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Of course, why not? I'm a Bitcoiner, ex-TrotFi guy, now building Bitcoin startup

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and trying to make Bitcoin a little bit more usable for some of the people

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So that's it in a nutshell, I guess.

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Yes.

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And what's the startup?

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Yeah, it's Firefish.

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It's platform for loans backed by Bitcoin.

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So what it allows people is actually to access the value that is accumulated in their Bitcoin

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holdings.

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We created kind of marketplace around this concept so other people can fund Bitcoin backed

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loans.

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Yeah, this is an interesting topic.

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There are a lot of similar companies around and of varying quality, to say the least.

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This is something that I do not normally recommend to people.

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I mean, Firefish has gracefully agreed to sponsor this show, and I've decided to take on you as a partner because I liked your platform better than most other platforms.

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mostly because it's more secure and has a more technical solution to this thing

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and that it's a marketplace for these instruments.

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I still advise most people to just hodl for longer than they think they should hodl

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before they start using their Bitcoins as a medium of exchange or as collateral.

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But what are your views on this?

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Why did you start working on this?

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And what were the motivations for starting Firefish?

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Well, I was in a position that I would use the service, but I didn't find any

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platform that would actually, I would feel comfortable to use.

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There was a time, perhaps you remember those days when the BlockFi and Celsius

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were still around and, you know, I was in a personal situation where I required

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some cash for, to pursue investment and hold some Bitcoin that time.

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And I was, Hey, perhaps I should use that as collateral.

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And I realized that there are not good options at all available.

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There have been these platforms where I started to call them trust me, bro

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platforms where you trust some bro on the other side, you, you send them your

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Bitcoin and hope that it will come back one day.

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And for many people, unfortunately, this didn't end up well.

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Look, both, both block five and Celsius went belly up.

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And I started to think about that perhaps we as Bitcoiners, as a community, deserve more

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secure platforms and maybe we should even use the programmability that is embedded in

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Bitcoin.

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Maybe we should use Bitcoin script in some way or another.

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So we started to think about how to minimize the counterparty risk that is embedded, how

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to make collateralized lending as secure as possible for the borrower.

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We came up with a specific protocol that is using only Bitcoin layer one.

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The technical capabilities that already exist are and are battle tested on Bitcoin, such

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as multisig, partially signed Bitcoin transactions and timelocks.

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And we created some kind of a contract on the Bitcoin network that facilitates the escrow,

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the underlying security instrument.

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So this is it.

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Yeah, I mean, it's impossible, I guess, to mitigate all the risk when you're dealing with fiat and when you're dealing with banks, because there's always that side of the equation.

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And this goes for exchanges and everything else.

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All the bridges between Bitcoin and fiat still have to fiddle around with fiat land.

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And that is where all the problems exist, the way I see it.

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Bitcoin itself is fairly simple, but fiat requires a lot of things like KYC.

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And you can also claim that you didn't do what you did and you can get your money back.

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And if the company goes bankrupt, there are guarantees and stuff, meaning that the taxpayer eventually pays all the costs.

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How did you tackle that?

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Like what's your approach to fiat land?

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Well, maybe I will start with the Bitcoin land, like how we tackle the risks related to Bitcoin,

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because if you want to use your Bitcoin as collateral in a simple terms, you pretty much need to say like,

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this is the security that is available in case I don't pay back what I owe you.

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You can take my Bitcoin and sell it to satisfy the loan, right?

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So there is some kind of right to transfer to somebody else.

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And how to do this as secure as possible?

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And our answer is to use Bitcoin as a kind of enforcement layer.

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So we created kind of a simple kind of contract that pretty much says,

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once Bitcoin is on a particular address, it can be spent only in two ways.

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either back to the borrower, and that address is part of the partially sent Bitcoin transaction,

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so it's pretty much baked into the contract, or to the liquidation address. And your trust towards

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the platform is not zero, but it's limited to the extent that Oracle, that is currently Firefish,

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chooses one of those directions. So we, as Firefish, we cannot send Bitcoin to my personal

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Trezor or any preferred hardware wallet or not even to the tax office if they require us to only

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to do to those two predefined addresses. Back to your question about the fiat currency. Like

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what I would say, what is interesting to see is that you are on the good side of the

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equation. You are pretty much short fiat currency. Like as a borrower,

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you create the liability in fiat currency. You can see that as shorting fiat currency per se.

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That means that you are benefiting from the fact that fiat currency is deteriorating in the value

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over time. You borrow $1,000, you repay $1,000 plus interest in some time. What is interesting,

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$1,000 now is not the same as $1,000 in the future. So being short fiat currency via loan

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in general, it's quite interesting financial strategy.

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Like there are two, like maybe I'll share a little bit about my like investment or financial

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thesis.

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One of them is long Bitcoin.

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That's why I hold Bitcoin because I think it's going to be one way or another like core

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of a better financial system.

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That's one thesis I hold.

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another one is that fiat currencies are going to zero in definitely over over a long run so

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i'm doing my best to be as short as i can fiat currency and like one of the ways how you can do

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it is taking a loan it doesn't need to be backed by bitcoin uh alone in general yeah i mean this

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is how the the richest guy to come out of the weimar republic made his fortune is to you know

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take as much loans in the failing currency as possible to buy as many assets as possible,

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mostly gold in his case. But I guess this is the same tactic. To me, it sounds like if you're

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going to do this and if you're going to survive the short-term volatility, which may span decades,

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you sort of already need to be financially set for this to make sense.

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Would you agree with that?

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Well, yes.

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Basically, I think the loans are more secure for people who don't need them.

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Let's put it this way.

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We think actually the collateralized lending is kind of a machine gun you have in your hands.

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You can also hurt yourself I mean there risk of liquidation There is some element of risk that you are taking when engaging with Bitcoin back loans It can be very very

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useful to you and to your financial strategy. I use this strategy myself whenever I need

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cash for whatever can be my kids education. I tend to use Bitcoin back loan. At the same

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time, if you overexpose yourself to the Bitcoin back loan, you are facing risk of liquidation.

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This is something that everybody should be aware of. Yeah, and I think if I remember correctly,

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that the smallest amount of collateral that you allow for is like double what you're, right?

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Yes, we decided not to fiddle with this parameter too much to make it as safe as possible for

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borrowers. And we originate all loans at 50% LTV. That means that to borrow like 10,000 euros or

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dollars, you would need twice as much value of Bitcoin at inception flow.

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Yeah, so let's dig a little deeper into this.

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So for instance, if you take out a loan to buy another asset than Bitcoin, would that

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really be advisable given that Bitcoin will probably outperform all the others?

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Is there a point to that?

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Could you like collateralize your Bitcoin to buy more Bitcoin, for instance?

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Would that be a good idea or is that just stupidity?

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This is what some people do.

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And I'm not here to judge.

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I think like it needs to be everybody's own decision, like how big of allocation of the

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assets to Bitcoin, whether it is 100% or less or even more.

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Like if you use Bitcoin collateralized loan to buy some more Bitcoin, then your like allocation

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of your wealth can be more than 100% to Bitcoin.

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So there is an element of leverage to it.

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If you use this strategy, you could use Bitcoin back loans for consumption, but also to pursue

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financial investment or scale up your business.

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This is what a lot of our clients do.

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They actually scale up their business.

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Yes.

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And do you think this is of detriment somehow to Bitcoin being used as money?

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Like, isn't this taking away from that market?

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Like Bitcoin being used as a medium of exchange over space?

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or is that like not important?

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What are your thoughts around that?

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Well, I realized that there are a lot of,

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so much different expectations from Bitcoin

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and a lot of people disappointed

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because their expectations are not met.

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I'm not here to judge like what is the use case

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for Bitcoin that should be pursued.

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I'm happy that people are working

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on a medium exchange kind of use case

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like a Lightning Network is growing

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like month by month and all these.

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I'm happy for that. Like we decided to perhaps extend the store of value kind of thesis of

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Bitcoin or use case. And I really think accessing the value in store of value asset is just kind

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of a natural extension of this use case. So honestly, I don't think this should be like

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competing cases. I think like in the free market, we should be trying to pursue both of them,

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or maybe even some more.

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Yeah, I agree with that.

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I think the value of a thing like this

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is different for your KYC stack

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than for your non-KYC stack.

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So I'd say if you live in a country

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where you know that you're going to get

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a big capital gains tax bill

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as soon as you sell your Bitcoin

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on your KYC stack,

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then maybe this is a better solution

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for getting some medium of exchange use out of that stack,

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whereas it's not as useful for your non-KYC stack,

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which you can just use as money anyway.

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Would you agree with that?

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Yeah, I would agree with that.

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At the same time, I think the dilemma I was facing

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at some point in my life was, you know,

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there is some strategy or investment I would think to pursue.

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It was a business, right?

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And I was in a dilemma there.

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do I sell my Bitcoin? And, you know, that was the best asset I had on my own balance sheet. So,

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you know, I'm coming from the traditional finance. And it seems like clear for people in TratFi,

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that holding the best assets on your balance sheet is a good idea. And creating liabilities

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in the bad assets is also a good idea. And I was in this deal. I'm like, do I sell my Bitcoin,

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the most precious asset I have on my balance sheet? And I was like, no, no, I'm not gonna do that.

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And how do I, you know, access the liquidity that I need for my other goals?

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And this is why the collateralized lending is such a powerful tool.

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You don't need to give up ownership of the best things you have to be able to pursue your goals.

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No, and if you expect your company or your investment to outperform Bitcoin, then it's a non-brainer, I guess.

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But I view post-hyper-Bitcoinization, where there's only Bitcoin around, it will be way harder to make a company actually profitable.

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I can even see a scenario where you start a company to make your stack diminish a little slower because everyone's stack will diminish over time.

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Almost everyone's.

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Because it's a deflationary type of money, there's a limited amount of it.

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So eventually they will fade away. It's such a weird thing to think about. But we're living through the early stages of hyperbiconization. And these bridges between the new world and the legacy system, they sort of have to exist.

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Yeah, and if people want to use them, they should use the more secure ones rather than the block FIs and the Celsius of the world, let's just say that.

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Of course, 100%.

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And I agree that these tools, like we are building tools for world as it is now.

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We are hoping for a better world with a much better financial system over time.

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And we are building for nowadays.

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And whatever is making Bitcoin more useful to people is actually supporting Bitcoin adoption

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over time.

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And we are building tools for Bitcoiners.

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We are Bitcoiners.

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We are pretty much building tools for community and we hope it will help to make Bitcoin more

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usable for some of the people, maybe not for everybody.

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Honestly, I don't think collateralized lending will be used by everybody, but we hope those

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products and tools will be kind of of high value to some of the Bitcoiners around.

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Yes, I would add to that that whatever adds use value to Bitcoin as money, I don't agree that

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Bitcoin should do everything. It should still be money, but as long as it's a monetary use case,

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then I'm totally for it.

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So is it a good idea to collateralize Bitcoin

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to take out a mortgage to buy a house, for instance?

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What's your thoughts around that?

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Depends.

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Currently, the interest rates you could get on mortgage

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tend to be lower than on the Bitcoin back loans.

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Honestly, I think this is a transition period again.

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like there is a discrepancy between the rates on Bitcoin back loans that are currently,

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they're finally single digit, even on a non-custodial platform as ours, on a secure platform

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as Firefish, but still you could get much lower rates taking out a mortgage. And the reason is

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that there are proper credit rails built around the real estate. They are depending on the legal

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system largely on the legislation, but they kind of work.

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We see what we do as a kind of building a credit rails around the Bitcoin We will not need to depend on the legal system nor government enforcement because we can enforce the legal contracts in between borrowers and lenders via technological means using

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Bitcoin blockchain and its execution environment.

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So back to your question, I guess in some situations it makes sense.

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In some situations, it can be cheaper to take out a mortgage backed by real estate.

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Yeah, and the thing is, Firefish is a marketplace for these things.

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So interest rates go down naturally because there's a free market happening there

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where people try to outcompete one another for the cheapest loans.

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In fiat land, that isn't really true because it's all being centrally planned by central banks setting interest rates for the other banks and so on and so forth and printing money, quantitative easing and all of this.

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All of these malincentives sort of play into that whole thing.

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So it's sort of the illusion of low interest rates and you don't see the entire costs.

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For instance, when I hear the word negative interest rates, it's just like, I know that there's no such thing as a negative time preference.

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People can have a very high time preference, but it cannot be negative.

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Everyone prefers money now to money later.

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That's always true.

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So, yeah, I think this is fair.

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Let me be a devil's advocate.

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bit here. I would just add that unless there are costs related to holding the money or the asset.

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What we have seen recently, and I think it's kind of a case now, is that there is no explicit

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interest rate curve on Bitcoin, but I would assume that there would be negative interest rates.

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Because people prefer financial exposure to Bitcoin price, comparing to holding physical

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Bitcoin. Holding physical Bitcoin implies some costs to institutions and they prefer not to deal

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with that thing. So it seems that unless, like your argument is true, unless there are some

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perceived or real costs related to holding to the asset.

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I think this is the thesis in Seyfedin's Principles of Economics book, that negative

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interest rates can actually be possible given that the cost of securing the money you're holding

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is higher than there's a balance there somewhere. So if you want to remove that cost, you might as

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well lend it to others and take on some risk that way. What would be the incentive to be the lender

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on FireFace? Like not the borrower, but to actually provide the liquidity for others.

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what's the incentive to do that the interest of course but yeah what what would be the best

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argument for anyone to do that to believe or not there are still some people that hold

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some savings or some assets in a fiat currency and for those i think the value proposition is

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pretty simple interest rates that are much much higher than the risk that is involved

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Imagine the investment that is backed by twice as much collateral as your investment.

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So what is nice on this, maybe I'm just diverting a little bit, but on Firefish, you really

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don't need to care who is opposite side of your trade.

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If you are lending out money to someone, you don't really care whether it's Warren Buffett

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or a lady from the grocery store downstairs.

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You don't give a damn.

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I mean, the Bitcoin is the security behind and you don't really care about the credit

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score or who they are, if they're a billionaire or not.

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To invest on Firefish, it means that whoever you lend your money to, your investment is

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secured by Bitcoin collateral.

252
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Like they will either pay you back or their Bitcoin is used to pay you back.

253
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There are no other way.

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So in my eyes, there is very, very limited risk embedded into this kind of transaction.

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And interest rates are still relatively high, much higher than on your bank account.

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All right.

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And one more thing I would add is that for many people on our platform, actually, this

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was their first encounter with Bitcoin.

259
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My parents are using Firefish to lend out their savings.

260
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They are not holding any Bitcoin.

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They don't have any Bitcoin address, not the Bitcoin wallet.

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They cannot operate Bitcoin.

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Still Bitcoin is somehow useful to them.

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They are lending money to random people across Europe and Bitcoin is making the transaction

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secure.

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So they're using Bitcoin without even touching it.

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And for them and many others, this was their first encounter with Bitcoin.

268
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So would you say that it could be an onboarding tool like that, like a tool for orange peeling

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people who hold large fiat stacks?

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It is.

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It is like on our platform, it is onboarding tool.

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People realize that Bitcoin is useful to them.

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I'm not saying that everybody starts to wear orange T-shirt the next day, but they realize

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that there is something to it.

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Like this internet money is not only for geeks and, you know, economics freaks.

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It's useful as it is, and it's helping secure their transactions,

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to secure their life savings sometimes.

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Yeah, why not?

279
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Why not just hop onto the train, right?

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If you can make money off of it.

281
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So, yeah, we mentioned real estate there before.

282
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I know you have some other thoughts around real estate.

283
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What do you think is going to happen?

284
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Is this part of the everything bubble?

285
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Why is real estate the way it is?

286
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What are your thoughts around the real estate market?

287
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Well, I've been thinking a lot in this regard

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for the last recent months and years.

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And I was thinking how actually real estate

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relates to Bitcoin and to some other store of value assets.

291
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Like real estate seems to be by far

292
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the biggest store of value asset.

293
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And what is interesting,

294
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it's not only store of value asset, there is also the utility value to it. So when you kind of dissect

295
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the value of real estate and real estate market, it seems to be partially utility driven, like the

296
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shelter value, but also to a large extent, there is some monetary component to it. Like people use

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it to be shielded from the monetary inflation pretty much.

298
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And it's interesting to think about like why real estate, why not other assets and

299
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et cetera.

300
00:24:34,848 --> 00:24:40,128
And it seems to me, it got a lot of to do with these credit rails that are built

301
00:24:40,228 --> 00:24:42,388
around the real estate.

302
00:24:43,128 --> 00:24:51,008
It's very easy to borrow, to acquire real estate, but also to refinance, to use your

303
00:24:51,008 --> 00:24:54,848
real estate portfolio to excess liquidity for anything else.

304
00:24:55,268 --> 00:25:01,968
It's super easy, at least in the first world where the legal system works, because

305
00:25:02,648 --> 00:25:10,508
enforcement and like this credit plumbing is dependent on the legal system.

306
00:25:10,568 --> 00:25:18,448
You might ask like, or I'll ask you like if you have three choices, like you could

307
00:25:18,448 --> 00:25:21,808
collateralized house, Ferrari and Goldbar.

308
00:25:21,808 --> 00:25:25,948
Like, or you are a bank and you should lend against these three assets.

309
00:25:25,948 --> 00:25:27,988
Like, which would you choose?

310
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And maybe not, but I would assume you would choose the house.

311
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Like, Ferrari can be driven away.

312
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Goldbar can be just taken to your next flight to Kuala Lumpur and sold on the, on the, on the black market or whatnot.

313
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And house will still be staying there.

314
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and itself can be enforced by the legal system.

315
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What I'm saying is that perhaps we came to much better collateral

316
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than real estate that is not dependent on the legal system that can be transferred all around the world And that can be liquidated in a split of seconds A collateral whose value is clear at any

317
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single second in a time. There is a super liquid market for Bitcoin and you could realize the loan,

318
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I mean, the sale of collateral in a split second.

319
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I think once the credit rails around Bitcoin are more mature, this is something that we are

320
00:26:29,832 --> 00:26:36,392
working on at Firefish, we might see a tectonic shift in asset allocation across the world,

321
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where people realize that perhaps real estate might not be the best store of value asset.

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asset, and perhaps more and more people will realize that there are better assets, more

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fitting the digital world we live in.

324
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And in my eyes, that's Bitcoin.

325
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So how I see the future evolving is that over time, this monetary premium on the real estate

326
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will tend to collapse and we will see a lot of capital inflow into the Bitcoin.

327
00:27:11,492 --> 00:27:16,372
I really think the prerequisite for that to happen, besides other things, is also functional

328
00:27:16,372 --> 00:27:18,772
credit market around the Bitcoin.

329
00:27:20,512 --> 00:27:24,512
Yeah, I mean, it's the tragedy of the commons, right?

330
00:27:24,572 --> 00:27:32,412
Because there are so many tragic side effects to real estate being store of value.

331
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Like I always try to promote this.

332
00:27:34,892 --> 00:27:41,052
There's no, the dichotomy between store of value and medium exchange is really false.

333
00:27:41,052 --> 00:27:45,492
it's all medium of change. It's just that it's medium of change over time and space.

334
00:27:45,812 --> 00:27:50,192
So I prefer medium of change over time to store a value because that's what it

335
00:27:50,192 --> 00:27:54,892
actually means. You're trading with your future self. And when the money is broken,

336
00:27:54,892 --> 00:28:01,232
as in case with fiat, people put their money in real estate instead because of all the reasons

337
00:28:01,232 --> 00:28:07,932
you said. A Ferrari can be driven away, a gold bar can be stolen, but a house is what it is. And

338
00:28:07,932 --> 00:28:19,412
And since everyone else also expects all the house prices to go up, everyone also expects more money to be printed because that's the only way houses can go up in value.

339
00:28:19,412 --> 00:28:30,672
In fact, it's the only thing anything can go up in value because if you denominate in Bitcoin instead, which is fixed, you can see that all prices are dropping forever, including for real estate.

340
00:28:30,672 --> 00:28:46,572
But the sad side effect is that, for instance, quite close to where I live, there's a quite luxurious area, which is a ghost town, because all of the houses there are bought for the store of value or medium exchange over time purpose only.

341
00:28:46,812 --> 00:28:51,652
Sure, some of them are holiday homes, but people aren't even there for their holidays.

342
00:28:51,652 --> 00:28:58,152
They're just empty, and they're too valuable to rent out to people, I think, because it's just a ghost town.

343
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And this is what happens. The billionaires buy up all the beachfront property and still you have a housing crisis in the country because it gets funneled into the hands of the already rich and they buy up all the houses and poorer people have no place to live. It's very expensive to be poor in fiat land.

344
00:29:21,152 --> 00:29:38,332
So Bitcoin solves both those problems, I think, because if you have an asset which is more secure than real estate to put your use as a store of value, then all of a sudden it makes no sense to own more than one or maybe two houses.

345
00:29:38,332 --> 00:29:43,832
Maybe you own one and maybe you own three houses because you want some jurisdiction or arbitrage or something.

346
00:29:44,412 --> 00:29:51,272
But more than that makes no sense whatsoever because you can just put it into Bitcoin and it's going to pay you off more.

347
00:29:51,972 --> 00:30:00,752
If you zoom out, you can see that all prices of all houses, all real estate prices are dropping if you're using the right denominator.

348
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If you're denominating Bitcoin, they are dropping over time.

349
00:30:03,652 --> 00:30:22,892
So I think that it's just a matter of time before this tectonic shift that you talk about plays out, because it has to and it will solve. This is one of the famous Bitcoin fixes this cases, right? Because Bitcoin actually does fix this in a very direct way.

350
00:30:22,892 --> 00:30:32,192
To a big extent, I would say that in my eyes, it got all the properties to fix this monetary

351
00:30:32,192 --> 00:30:34,232
value that is embedded in real estate.

352
00:30:34,232 --> 00:30:41,792
I think over time, real estate should really converge to its usability properties that

353
00:30:41,792 --> 00:30:43,852
it would be priced based on cash flow.

354
00:30:43,852 --> 00:30:50,212
And it will be much more normal to rent a house and not to own it because you just use

355
00:30:50,212 --> 00:30:55,172
it as another tool that you are using. It provides you shelters, you pay for shelter.

356
00:30:56,212 --> 00:31:01,252
If there is no expectation that the price would go up in time and it's kind of shielding you from

357
00:31:01,252 --> 00:31:09,092
inflation, then you are indifferent whether you own or rent a property. People prefer to own it

358
00:31:09,092 --> 00:31:13,812
because it's shielding you from the monetary inflation. At the same time, you are pretty much

359
00:31:13,812 --> 00:31:18,452
leveraged because you take mortgage and this is how you kind of manage yourself. This is what

360
00:31:18,452 --> 00:31:24,532
people do, people are not stupid. What I wanted to say as well is that it's not going to solve all

361
00:31:24,532 --> 00:31:33,492
the problems of the inflated housing prices, because to a large extent, it's driven by the

362
00:31:33,492 --> 00:31:40,532
central planning as well. You are living in Europe, I guess, same as me, and we have a huge

363
00:31:40,532 --> 00:31:46,532
problem with the central planning. It's an illusion. Owning real estate is pretty much an illusion,

364
00:31:46,532 --> 00:31:53,492
like that you own it you're pretty much uh it's it's just like it's it's uh it's some data in a

365
00:31:53,492 --> 00:31:58,872
government database like you will realize that you would realize what i'm talking about if you

366
00:31:58,872 --> 00:32:05,792
try to build a house on a random plot of land you own somewhere like uh it's not permitted by the

367
00:32:05,792 --> 00:32:13,392
government and you cannot do anything with that land until they love you so is this owning something

368
00:32:13,392 --> 00:32:26,052
I mean, like they allow you to have some rights towards the real estate, but in reality, it's government's real estate that you can use for some time if they allow you.

369
00:32:26,832 --> 00:32:31,692
Yeah, and especially if you're paying property tax, then it's just the mafia owns the building.

370
00:32:31,932 --> 00:32:33,912
Like it's that simple.

371
00:32:34,332 --> 00:32:42,312
And this is so interesting because like, yeah, there's a difference between ownership and possession.

372
00:32:42,312 --> 00:33:04,072
And ownership is supposed to be your legal relationship with a thing. Possession is actually being in possession of that thing. So the Ferrari, for instance, the thief would possess the Ferrari, but you would still own it. But you can't do much about that if you don't have the rest of society to try to catch the thief and give you the Ferrari back.

373
00:33:04,072 --> 00:33:07,952
So Bitcoin, on the other hand, are they even ownable?

374
00:33:08,312 --> 00:33:11,132
The information about the asset is the asset.

375
00:33:11,612 --> 00:33:20,952
So you can act as if you own it because you think that the likelihood that someone else has access to the same private keys as you do is very low.

376
00:33:21,112 --> 00:33:29,152
And also the probability that the system will change in the future to where the 21 million cap will ever change.

377
00:33:29,292 --> 00:33:31,092
That is also super low.

378
00:33:31,092 --> 00:33:34,592
So you believe these things and you take them for granted.

379
00:33:34,792 --> 00:33:41,952
And that allows you to act as if you owned it, which is actually way more powerful than literal ownership.

380
00:33:42,172 --> 00:33:45,652
Because literal ownership doesn't even exist in Fiatland.

381
00:33:45,732 --> 00:33:46,992
It's always permissioned.

382
00:33:47,312 --> 00:33:56,332
You're always only semi-owning stuff with a permit from the government saying that, okay, you can live in this house.

383
00:33:56,332 --> 00:34:09,132
So Bitcoin is really empowering people in that sense. It's giving the power back to people and making ownership possible again. Mopa, making ownership possible again. That's a nice hat.

384
00:34:10,032 --> 00:34:12,292
Those are very interesting ideas, Snoot.

385
00:34:12,952 --> 00:34:22,992
Have you ever thought about it that way? Like a question that if you actually can own Bitcoin or not? Have you thought about it on that level?

386
00:34:22,992 --> 00:34:27,532
I never thought, but I'm pretty sure I will after this episode.

387
00:34:27,532 --> 00:34:29,872
Those are interesting ideas.

388
00:34:29,872 --> 00:34:32,272
I never thought in this direction.

389
00:34:32,272 --> 00:34:35,752
Yeah, there's another thing.

390
00:34:35,752 --> 00:34:40,592
People say that Bitcoin is backed by energy, but I think that framing is completely wrong

391
00:34:40,592 --> 00:34:43,012
too, because behind the energy.

392
00:34:43,056 --> 00:34:50,896
is a person running a node. So a person voluntarily buying hardware and choosing what software to run

393
00:34:50,896 --> 00:34:55,696
on that hardware. So it's actually backed by human beings. The energy is just a proof of work

394
00:34:56,256 --> 00:35:02,896
to prove to that human being that this system actually works and no one can cheat it. So it's

395
00:35:02,896 --> 00:35:10,496
part of what makes you believe in the system, but the believer is one level deeper than the energy

396
00:35:10,496 --> 00:35:16,496
involved. Do you have any thoughts around that or thoughts around energy in general?

397
00:35:18,736 --> 00:35:25,536
Well, there are like a lot of kind of metaphors people use about Bitcoin. Some of them make more

398
00:35:25,536 --> 00:35:32,336
sense than others. Like, I like to see Bitcoin as a piece of technology that, you know, serves some

399
00:35:32,336 --> 00:35:41,216
cases and helps people in this and that. It got some specific properties. Like using these metaphors

400
00:35:41,216 --> 00:35:50,576
about stored energy or something, it's just too esoteric for me work in this level of abstraction,

401
00:35:50,576 --> 00:35:58,976
let's put it this way. Yeah, all the metaphors are flawed. There is no correct metaphor. We

402
00:35:58,976 --> 00:36:04,576
still we use them to make sense of things but it also leads to a lot of confusion sometimes

403
00:36:04,576 --> 00:36:12,016
i mean the the yeah the term wallet yeah i i agree like bullet is like metaphor as well like you are

404
00:36:12,816 --> 00:36:17,936
storing a secret i don't know if that is uh a wallet but like secret storage would be maybe

405
00:36:17,936 --> 00:36:23,056
more appropriate word uh for that also like i think there is a lot of misconception in uh

406
00:36:23,056 --> 00:36:31,696
in general in economics. People misuse inflation. People think that the CPI,

407
00:36:31,696 --> 00:36:37,536
like changing the price index and the inflation are the same terms. And they're obviously not. I

408
00:36:37,536 --> 00:36:44,896
think there are a lot of misconceptions coming from flawed economics education that people face.

409
00:36:44,896 --> 00:36:46,996
absolutely

410
00:36:46,996 --> 00:36:49,536
the CPI basket is sort of

411
00:36:49,536 --> 00:36:50,516
it's the

412
00:36:50,516 --> 00:36:53,316
pay no attention to the men

413
00:36:53,316 --> 00:36:54,856
behind the curtain thing

414
00:36:54,856 --> 00:36:57,296
look at what the right hand is doing

415
00:36:57,296 --> 00:36:58,976
while the left hand is printing money

416
00:36:58,976 --> 00:37:01,616
it's not highlighting

417
00:37:01,616 --> 00:37:03,116
the underlying problem

418
00:37:03,116 --> 00:37:05,256
because housing gets

419
00:37:05,256 --> 00:37:06,256
more expensive

420
00:37:06,256 --> 00:37:08,696
fine art gets more expensive

421
00:37:08,696 --> 00:37:10,656
that's where the money ends up

422
00:37:10,656 --> 00:37:13,516
so the stock market

423
00:37:13,516 --> 00:37:18,376
keeps growing, all the stocks keep going up in price.

424
00:37:18,456 --> 00:37:21,436
Even during COVID, for instance, the stock market boomed,

425
00:37:21,796 --> 00:37:26,716
which makes absolutely no sense if you have some knowledge about economics.

426
00:37:28,476 --> 00:37:30,856
Yeah, 100%.

427
00:37:30,856 --> 00:37:37,656
And well, there is still like one piece of economics I tend to preach people about

428
00:37:37,656 --> 00:37:41,476
because I stopped preaching about Bitcoin or, you know, stuff.

429
00:37:41,476 --> 00:37:49,076
But inflation in my eyes, it's such a misuse term that I still kind of trying to explain

430
00:37:49,076 --> 00:37:53,576
people that the problem is much higher than they think.

431
00:37:53,576 --> 00:37:59,576
That like neutral monetary system, you would see the prices go down due to technological

432
00:37:59,576 --> 00:38:02,576
progress of pretty much everything over time.

433
00:38:02,576 --> 00:38:08,536
This is the normal situation, not the zero CPI kind of change over time.

434
00:38:08,536 --> 00:38:16,516
So the problem of central banking and money printing, so to say, is much higher than people

435
00:38:16,516 --> 00:38:17,516
think.

436
00:38:17,516 --> 00:38:23,256
It's not only this CPI number they see in the newspaper, but also all the technological

437
00:38:23,256 --> 00:38:28,056
progress that is stolen from them by government and central banks.

438
00:38:28,056 --> 00:38:31,956
This is something I tend to explain to normies.

439
00:38:31,956 --> 00:38:33,116
Maybe I would have one question to you.

440
00:38:33,116 --> 00:38:36,556
Like I'm kind of struggling to explain Bitcoin.

441
00:38:36,556 --> 00:38:40,556
why it is important without explaining what's the problem. Like there is underlying monetary

442
00:38:40,556 --> 00:38:46,716
problem we are facing as a society that we still kind of didn't get rid of the central planning in

443
00:38:46,716 --> 00:38:57,836
the monetary area. How would you explain why Bitcoin is important to every Joe in a bar without

444
00:38:57,836 --> 00:39:04,236
mentioning there is some problem? Because when you are talking about problems, it brings a lot

445
00:39:04,236 --> 00:39:10,996
lot of negativity to the table. And I'm struggling how to bypass this negativity and just to bring

446
00:39:10,996 --> 00:39:17,096
positive solution or not even solution like positive aspect to it. Yeah, that's a good question.

447
00:39:17,096 --> 00:39:22,656
And it's a hard problem. I don't think you can understand Bitcoin without understanding the

448
00:39:22,656 --> 00:39:28,996
problem. Because it's sort of like explaining medicine to someone who has never realized that

449
00:39:28,996 --> 00:39:35,236
they had a disease or maybe that's a bad metaphor but you sort of need to understand that prices

450
00:39:35,236 --> 00:39:46,436
ought to be going down and not up and most people are like that really requires a rewiring of the

451
00:39:46,436 --> 00:39:53,376
brain for most people because most people the insight is horrible to people because that means

452
00:39:53,376 --> 00:39:56,396
that the entire system that we're living in is a lie,

453
00:39:56,836 --> 00:39:59,676
and that all the politicians and all the bankers

454
00:39:59,676 --> 00:40:01,496
have been lying to them all along,

455
00:40:01,616 --> 00:40:05,416
which is a very harsh truth for people

456
00:40:05,416 --> 00:40:06,896
and a hard pill to swallow.

457
00:40:07,556 --> 00:40:09,376
If you think deeper about it,

458
00:40:09,416 --> 00:40:10,996
it says a lot about democracy.

459
00:40:10,996 --> 00:40:14,116
It says that democracy doesn't work

460
00:40:14,116 --> 00:40:16,956
since we end up in this situation,

461
00:40:17,156 --> 00:40:20,036
even though it's supposed to be the will of the people and stuff,

462
00:40:20,036 --> 00:40:26,116
but still complete assholes end up on top and they steal from everyone all the time it's a very hard

463
00:40:26,116 --> 00:40:32,596
pill to swallow but i think you have to start there and my favorite way of initiating that

464
00:40:32,596 --> 00:40:40,316
conversation is saying okay so two questions the first question is if people practice doing things

465
00:40:40,316 --> 00:40:46,096
do they usually get worse or better at the thing they're practicing doing and the answer is obvious

466
00:40:46,096 --> 00:40:47,816
You get better if you practice.

467
00:40:48,656 --> 00:40:51,796
So the second question is, so why aren't all prices going down forever?

468
00:40:52,676 --> 00:40:54,356
Because those should be connected.

469
00:40:54,536 --> 00:40:58,016
If we get better at doing things, the cost of everything should go down.

470
00:40:58,996 --> 00:41:05,056
And it's like, if they get that, that's a very good gateway drug.

471
00:41:05,096 --> 00:41:07,156
Because maybe you can get their brains going.

472
00:41:07,336 --> 00:41:09,196
And you don't have to frame it as a negative thing.

473
00:41:09,256 --> 00:41:12,416
You can just say, so just ask those two questions.

474
00:41:12,596 --> 00:41:13,496
The other one I love is...

475
00:41:13,496 --> 00:41:14,836
Those are good questions.

476
00:41:16,096 --> 00:41:21,456
The other question I love, but this is more in normal land, that question might be too

477
00:41:21,456 --> 00:41:22,536
deep for certain people.

478
00:41:22,756 --> 00:41:26,436
You can start by asking, why are people in the public sector paying taxes?

479
00:41:28,396 --> 00:41:29,336
What's the point?

480
00:41:30,256 --> 00:41:33,496
If they're paid by taxes, why are they paying taxes?

481
00:41:34,276 --> 00:41:41,336
And the only reason they are is because they want the facade of them being as productive

482
00:41:41,336 --> 00:41:43,756
as the private sector, which they're clearly not.

483
00:41:43,756 --> 00:41:44,756
Their cost.

484
00:41:46,096 --> 00:41:53,976
Sure, they might provide value and stuff, but not as much value as they could have provided had they been in the private sector.

485
00:41:54,816 --> 00:42:05,113
So that another one of those really simple questions that I love asking people Just sneak it in there somehow Got you

486
00:42:05,813 --> 00:42:12,913
Why do you think are not all the public expenses in the normal land funded by the monetary inflation outright?

487
00:42:12,913 --> 00:42:21,393
Why does this puppetry of tax system and all the bureaucrats and everything that is clearly not effective exist at all?

488
00:42:21,393 --> 00:42:34,493
And if you are printing money, why don't you just print money to fund public expense and not play with taxes and all these unnecessary things?

489
00:42:34,913 --> 00:42:42,653
Why do things that modern societies, now that we call democratic societies, Western societies, evolved in this way?

490
00:42:44,413 --> 00:42:48,793
Yeah, I think how history played out plays a huge role in that.

491
00:42:49,413 --> 00:42:56,253
So we have to know the history of taxation and the history of banking and the history of central banking.

492
00:42:56,253 --> 00:43:09,253
So the history of fractional reserve banking is when banking was born, there's a guy in the village who happens to have access to some kind of vault or he promises to keep people's assets safe from thieves.

493
00:43:09,873 --> 00:43:13,353
And he charges a bit of a fee for doing this.

494
00:43:13,353 --> 00:43:18,853
Sometimes the fee is baked in in that he can use the assets to lend out to other people,

495
00:43:18,853 --> 00:43:22,393
so you can actually make money putting your stuff in the vault.

496
00:43:22,533 --> 00:43:30,473
But the point I'm trying to get to here is that whenever this primal banker figures out

497
00:43:30,473 --> 00:43:36,453
that he can give out more receipts for stuff in the vault than there is actually stuff in the vault,

498
00:43:36,713 --> 00:43:38,553
that's where fiat money starts.

499
00:43:38,553 --> 00:44:02,993
So the banker realizes that he can get very rich by giving out more receipts than he actually has stuff in the vault. And people start trading these receipts. That's the first monetary bill, how that is introduced. It's way more convenient because you don't have to trade the actual gold, which is heavy and hard to divide into smaller pieces. You can just trade the pieces of paper.

500
00:44:02,993 --> 00:44:06,133
and the banker can just print pieces of paper

501
00:44:06,133 --> 00:44:09,933
until everyone calls his bluff at the same time

502
00:44:09,933 --> 00:44:11,833
where a bank run ensues.

503
00:44:12,553 --> 00:44:15,693
And this happened a whole bunch of times historically

504
00:44:15,693 --> 00:44:18,973
and it's actually the reason the central bank was born.

505
00:44:19,233 --> 00:44:22,473
The central bank was born to bail out the poor banker

506
00:44:22,473 --> 00:44:28,533
who finally got to experience the find out part of the fuckaroundery

507
00:44:28,533 --> 00:44:32,273
by being chased down with pitchforks and torches

508
00:44:32,273 --> 00:44:35,913
by angry customers, which is the way things should be.

509
00:44:36,053 --> 00:44:40,793
Like banks who deal in fiduciary media or fractional reserve,

510
00:44:41,113 --> 00:44:44,813
they should be like kicked out of society and thrown in jail and stuff.

511
00:44:44,953 --> 00:44:46,753
That's the proper way to handle that.

512
00:44:47,073 --> 00:44:51,173
But instead, they form a cartel and they invent the central bank

513
00:44:51,173 --> 00:44:53,593
to bail out the bankers whenever they're in trouble.

514
00:44:54,133 --> 00:44:58,353
And all the central bank does is amplify the problem

515
00:44:58,353 --> 00:45:01,353
because it's very hard to do a bank run on a central bank.

516
00:45:01,353 --> 00:45:25,733
So I think the evolution of the central bank is different to the evolution of politics. It's not like directly connected. And it's not the exact same people that benefit from taxes that benefit from central banking existing. But of course, there are political ties. The central bank wants to be free to do whatever it wants. So it can print money to bribe politicians to make rules that are better for them.

517
00:45:25,733 --> 00:45:40,673
The smaller banks can do the same thing. If they can make money from interest from money that doesn't exist, if they can do fractional reserve banking, they can bribe politicians to make decisions for them that are good for them and not for their customers.

518
00:45:40,673 --> 00:45:57,773
So it's a vicious cycle. And I don't think that they claim that we need both money printing and paying taxes. It's more a product of how history played out than a planned thing. It just happened to happen that way.

519
00:45:57,773 --> 00:46:24,253
But the problem gets worse. The bankers get more powerful and the politicians get more powerful because of both these things. And right now we're in a world where there are four countries that don't have a national debt. Because in order to keep up with the pace of the other countries, all the countries need to take out loans themselves. And your taxes goes to paying interest to those evil bankers. Like it's just vile through and through.

520
00:46:24,253 --> 00:46:47,353
So that's why you need a higher and higher tax burden, even though you're printing more and more money. So it's just funneling wealth from the people to those who already have the power. And quantitative easing, for instance, is when the US government goes to the Fed and says, Harrison, government bonds, we want these in exchange for newly printed dollars.

521
00:46:47,353 --> 00:46:51,233
So the Fed prints new dollars in exchange for government bonds.

522
00:46:51,793 --> 00:46:53,193
But what is a government bond?

523
00:46:53,953 --> 00:46:59,993
It's a promise from the government to extort even more money from the population in the future.

524
00:47:00,173 --> 00:47:07,053
So it's a promise from the government to be even more as holy to your children than they were to you.

525
00:47:09,153 --> 00:47:15,613
And what you get in exchange is money that works even less well.

526
00:47:15,613 --> 00:47:18,673
so it's all a vicious evil cycle

527
00:47:18,673 --> 00:47:20,193
and it's impossible to stop

528
00:47:20,193 --> 00:47:23,833
because it's always exponential

529
00:47:23,833 --> 00:47:27,453
the new interest that isn't in circulation

530
00:47:27,453 --> 00:47:29,653
you need an interest on that interest

531
00:47:29,653 --> 00:47:31,253
so it compounds, right?

532
00:47:31,573 --> 00:47:34,393
so all fiat currencies are hyperinflating

533
00:47:34,393 --> 00:47:36,133
they're just doing it at different paces

534
00:47:36,133 --> 00:47:37,973
but it's inevitable

535
00:47:37,973 --> 00:47:39,673
they all die

536
00:47:39,673 --> 00:47:42,633
and they all have to die hyperinflating

537
00:47:42,633 --> 00:47:45,013
so that's why they reset

538
00:47:45,013 --> 00:47:47,553
monetary systems

539
00:47:47,553 --> 00:47:48,973
every once in a while

540
00:47:48,973 --> 00:47:50,133
like the euro for instance

541
00:47:50,133 --> 00:47:53,693
when the pesos and the whatnots

542
00:47:53,693 --> 00:47:55,773
of the world of Europe

543
00:47:55,773 --> 00:47:57,053
were going to shit

544
00:47:57,053 --> 00:47:58,933
they had to like invent a new thing

545
00:47:58,933 --> 00:48:00,993
and then they claim that

546
00:48:00,993 --> 00:48:02,833
that is much more legit than the old ones

547
00:48:02,833 --> 00:48:04,393
and it just simply isn't

548
00:48:04,393 --> 00:48:07,073
the only thing that is legit in the monetary world

549
00:48:07,073 --> 00:48:09,153
is bitcoin because it's the only one

550
00:48:09,153 --> 00:48:10,153
that has a capped supply

551
00:48:10,153 --> 00:48:12,333
so end of rant

552
00:48:12,333 --> 00:48:18,653
Yeah, we have Bitcoin. I think like you mentioned that things are getting worse over time. And I

553
00:48:18,653 --> 00:48:24,893
would maybe provide a slightly different view on that. From my personal experience, I see that the

554
00:48:24,893 --> 00:48:31,373
things are getting better over time to some extent. Believe or not, I was born in a communist country

555
00:48:31,373 --> 00:48:42,093
back in the 80s. And things had clearly changed for better. At that time, pretty much all aspects

556
00:48:42,093 --> 00:48:51,853
of the society in where I lived had been centrally planned, like from the central banking down to

557
00:48:51,853 --> 00:48:59,373
any possible aspect of human life, like distribution of the groceries. It was handled by government.

558
00:48:59,373 --> 00:49:08,333
And we as a society got rid of that clearly, for a better. There are still some realms of central

559
00:49:08,333 --> 00:49:10,373
planning that are kind of intact.

560
00:49:10,373 --> 00:49:29,389
And I just wondering why exactly like monetary like area why central bank Why like we kind of rely on the central planning in such an important part of you know functional society as this amazing invention

561
00:49:29,389 --> 00:49:37,069
we did as mankind that is money. It allows us to, you know, exchange value and you know,

562
00:49:37,869 --> 00:49:46,109
create very complex systems and very complex production systems to organize as a society

563
00:49:46,109 --> 00:49:53,709
for very complex projects. And we still are okay for central planners to do the job for us.

564
00:49:53,709 --> 00:50:00,589
Like why do you think this is the area that stayed in government control for such a long time?

565
00:50:00,589 --> 00:50:08,269
time. It doesn't seem to change in the very next, very near future. But on the positive

566
00:50:08,269 --> 00:50:13,369
note, I would mention that now I think we have a tool we can base a much better financial

567
00:50:13,369 --> 00:50:20,509
system on. In my eyes, it's Bitcoin. Honestly, I don't know if hyper-Bitcoinization ever

568
00:50:20,509 --> 00:50:25,869
happens, if it is happening tomorrow or never. I don't want to speculate on that. I don't

569
00:50:25,869 --> 00:50:30,729
know how we will use the Bitcoin exactly, if it is going to be more sort of a value or like

570
00:50:30,729 --> 00:50:35,969
medium exchange or how exactly, or maybe it's going to be just the collateral we use, but

571
00:50:35,969 --> 00:50:41,269
we will have this healthy base for the modern finance. This is what I know for sure.

572
00:50:41,929 --> 00:50:48,329
Back to my question, why do you think that the central banks are still kind of on? They operate

573
00:50:48,329 --> 00:50:53,489
as they operate and we got rid of the central planning in most of the areas over the last,

574
00:50:53,489 --> 00:51:02,229
let's say 200 years yeah first to address the everything isn't getting worse part because uh

575
00:51:02,229 --> 00:51:07,009
i don't i'm not saying that everything is getting worse everything is getting better the cost of

576
00:51:07,009 --> 00:51:11,569
production and the cost of transportation of every single good and service in the world is lower

577
00:51:11,569 --> 00:51:18,009
than than it has ever been it's just that we don't see that because we live in fiat land so it's not

578
00:51:18,009 --> 00:51:23,349
accurately reflected but some people see it and the closer you are to the monetary spigot the more

579
00:51:23,349 --> 00:51:28,269
you see it. And of course, if you lived under communism, or if your parents lived under

580
00:51:28,269 --> 00:51:33,309
communism, of course, it's better now than it used to be back then, because that was

581
00:51:33,309 --> 00:51:40,029
totalitarian. That is where we're headed if we go down the wrong path here. I think the

582
00:51:40,029 --> 00:51:46,789
reason the central banks are still so dominant in every single country is because people aren't

583
00:51:46,789 --> 00:51:53,949
aware of any alternative to it. And this is partially by design, because there was an

584
00:51:53,949 --> 00:52:00,169
economist called John Maynard Keynes that governments absolutely loved, because he said

585
00:52:00,169 --> 00:52:06,469
that government spending is what makes for a good economy. So he promoted government spending,

586
00:52:06,609 --> 00:52:10,929
and of course, governments love that. So of course, in government-funded universities,

587
00:52:10,929 --> 00:52:16,469
that guy is predominant in the curricula. That's what people are being taught.

588
00:52:16,789 --> 00:52:18,269
And he was simply wrong.

589
00:52:18,989 --> 00:52:20,989
But there's like no alternative.

590
00:52:20,989 --> 00:52:34,549
All the dissenting voices, like the Misesians of the world, get suppressed by this ginormous machine that is the state and the banks, the banking cartel.

591
00:52:34,949 --> 00:52:38,629
Because they have all the power and they're not going to give it up easily.

592
00:52:39,049 --> 00:52:44,989
They're going to give some power back to the people where they deem it necessary.

593
00:52:44,989 --> 00:52:50,029
but in the long run, it leads to more and more control. And the only way out of it is Bitcoin,

594
00:52:50,029 --> 00:52:56,349
the way I see it. Up until 2009, there simply wasn't an alternative to it.

595
00:52:56,349 --> 00:53:03,069
Knut, may I have one more question? What do you think are other areas besides the monetary

596
00:53:03,069 --> 00:53:10,349
kind of realm where the government is still keeping control and it's kind of a trouble?

597
00:53:10,349 --> 00:53:15,709
it's making our lives worse comparing to more kind of free market. Like, what are the particular

598
00:53:15,709 --> 00:53:22,429
areas you see as examples of that? Like we identified central banking and a possible

599
00:53:22,429 --> 00:53:30,189
solution, Bitcoin. What are the other possible areas that Bitcoin don't solve? Maybe. And what

600
00:53:30,189 --> 00:53:35,629
would be the solution in your eyes? Well, I believe that government is a net

601
00:53:35,629 --> 00:53:44,189
bad for society always. So I think that, sure, completely, a world without government would be

602
00:53:44,189 --> 00:53:50,049
a world without aggression. And that's what I want to aim for. So in the libertarian worldview,

603
00:53:50,389 --> 00:53:57,269
it's sort of like you want to minimize the number of aggressive interactions between people. So you

604
00:53:57,269 --> 00:54:05,089
want people to do things with consent and never with coercion. And it's kind of utopian because

605
00:54:05,089 --> 00:54:10,929
inevitably someone will take other people's stuff. And this is what government is. I think it goes

606
00:54:10,929 --> 00:54:18,929
through, it infects all areas of life. Anything government touches is made worse because the

607
00:54:18,929 --> 00:54:26,529
government touched it. The biggest problem, as I see, is not even freedom of speech or censorship

608
00:54:26,529 --> 00:54:33,029
or surveillance or stuff like that. It's simply resource misallocation. For instance, all the

609
00:54:33,029 --> 00:54:41,349
green policies that are so popular in Europe, 99% of that is just a giant misallocation of resources

610
00:54:41,349 --> 00:54:49,329
and it's cosmetics. It doesn't make a dent in changing any actual numbers of CO2 levels or

611
00:54:49,329 --> 00:54:56,229
anything like that. The earth doesn't care how much lipstick our politicians puts on a political

612
00:54:56,229 --> 00:55:05,289
decision. It's just creating these ginormous semi-free markets for allocating resources that

613
00:55:05,289 --> 00:55:10,629
wouldn't have been allocated the way they are right now had we had a functioning free market.

614
00:55:10,969 --> 00:55:16,409
For instance, all the wind farms out in the North Sea and stuff, I think it's all a giant waste of

615
00:55:16,409 --> 00:55:23,789
money. And, you know, shutting down fully functional nuclear power plants and trying to

616
00:55:23,789 --> 00:55:27,849
replace them with solar and pushing people to drive electric cars and stuff.

617
00:55:28,309 --> 00:55:31,309
All of this is just a giant misallocation of resources.

618
00:55:31,689 --> 00:55:35,409
And the main purpose is getting votes from retards.

619
00:55:35,569 --> 00:55:37,089
And I don't believe it at all.

620
00:55:37,089 --> 00:55:41,689
And of course, the even more destructive thing is war.

621
00:55:41,949 --> 00:55:45,529
War is the worst thing that government does.

622
00:55:46,229 --> 00:55:51,409
And any funding towards war is making things worse and not better, in my opinion.

623
00:55:51,409 --> 00:55:57,849
So if you see these things as criminal gangs, it becomes much clearer.

624
00:55:57,849 --> 00:56:08,129
So Ukraine versus Russia, for instance, you have the smaller gang, criminal gang Zelensky, fighting the much bigger criminal gang, criminal gang Putin.

625
00:56:08,649 --> 00:56:14,289
But the biggest criminal gang on earth, which is criminal gang NATO, doesn't like that.

626
00:56:14,389 --> 00:56:26,289
So they send a lot of resources to criminal gang Zelensky so that he can go and kidnap 18-year-olds and send them to the slaughterhouse that is the war.

627
00:56:26,289 --> 00:56:39,525
And all of this to decide who gets to put a flag on a piece of land somewhere And it just vile through and through And the reason that it exists is because we have taxes and inflation

628
00:56:40,185 --> 00:56:44,645
And the only way to achieve true world peace

629
00:56:44,645 --> 00:56:47,985
is to opt out of that and stop funding these assholes

630
00:56:47,985 --> 00:56:52,405
from funding wars and funding aggression.

631
00:56:53,645 --> 00:56:56,985
So I think Bitcoin is our best shot

632
00:56:56,985 --> 00:57:03,705
at actually regaining some sovereignty and stop sponsoring pedophiles and murderers.

633
00:57:03,705 --> 00:57:11,305
Got you. And I'm glad you mentioned energy because this is kind of the area I really care about.

634
00:57:11,305 --> 00:57:13,625
Yeah, you're the energy guy, right?

635
00:57:13,625 --> 00:57:21,545
Yeah, that's pretty much where I spent all my career before Bitcoin. And ultimately,

636
00:57:21,545 --> 00:57:28,505
I decided to leave corporate world forever and focus on Bitcoin. But before that, I was really

637
00:57:28,505 --> 00:57:35,385
deep in energy and energy commodities and trading. And actually, I was seeing from the

638
00:57:36,105 --> 00:57:45,225
pretty much front seat how the central planning in energy ended up destroying Europe in my eyes.

639
00:57:45,225 --> 00:57:52,625
I really think that a lot of economy and human action and production is just downstream from energy.

640
00:57:53,025 --> 00:58:02,585
And creating abundance in energy is actually creating abundance in society, like free and prosperous people.

641
00:58:03,385 --> 00:58:09,365
And at least in Europe, but I think in most of the world, we decided to go pretty much opposite direction.

642
00:58:09,365 --> 00:58:16,225
to pursue ideology instead of focus on producing energy.

643
00:58:16,685 --> 00:58:24,485
So it was sad to see, really, that since early 2000s, I think,

644
00:58:24,605 --> 00:58:28,865
we pretty much started to walk down this road of central planning

645
00:58:28,865 --> 00:58:34,105
and pursuing energy policies that have been purely ideological

646
00:58:34,105 --> 00:58:37,065
with the consequences we are seeing now.

647
00:58:37,065 --> 00:58:52,245
We are seeing strong decline, I think, in availability of energy to anybody, like of our capacity to produce whatever is making our lives better for the false promise of saving the planet.

648
00:58:52,245 --> 00:59:01,225
And I'm sorry for my rant, but I mean, like this is something I really care about still,

649
00:59:01,225 --> 00:59:03,705
energy and related topics.

650
00:59:03,705 --> 00:59:10,465
And for me, this is another area where we see that the central planning is evil and doesn't

651
00:59:10,465 --> 00:59:16,005
work and it's actually making everybody's life much worse.

652
00:59:16,005 --> 00:59:17,005
Absolutely.

653
00:59:17,005 --> 00:59:23,545
Absolutely. I mean, I come from the substrain of this business too.

654
00:59:23,545 --> 00:59:35,705
I used to work for a shipping company that shipped technicians and repairmen to wind farms in the North Sea and the Baltic Sea.

655
00:59:36,105 --> 00:59:37,125
So I saw it firsthand.

656
00:59:37,425 --> 00:59:41,585
And I saw when they were building these things, if there were two competing companies,

657
00:59:41,625 --> 00:59:46,885
so one company could own the farm and another company could own the contract for the farm,

658
00:59:47,005 --> 00:59:55,925
And sometimes there was one guy on one ship and his bag of tools was on the other ship because that's how it had to be contract-wise.

659
00:59:55,925 --> 01:00:05,825
So they wasted tons and tons of diesel to just get the guy and the stuff out to the wind turbine, which is to me so ridiculous.

660
01:00:06,125 --> 01:00:13,645
And the funny thing is that it's so reminiscent of how the old East Bloc and how the Soviet Union worked.

661
01:00:13,645 --> 01:00:21,905
They also did a lot of collective centrally planned bullshit cosmetic things like this for the greater good of the collective.

662
01:00:22,645 --> 01:00:24,285
And it's the exact same thing.

663
01:00:24,385 --> 01:00:29,945
It's a milder form of communism, I guess, but it's still the same phenomenon.

664
01:00:30,585 --> 01:00:38,705
Resources being destroyed because you put a central planner in place and you don't let things play out naturally.

665
01:00:39,265 --> 01:00:42,905
And I'm here to fight against it because I see through the bullshit.

666
01:00:43,645 --> 01:00:52,205
joining you. I mean, yeah, it's so visible in the field of energy. But, you know, as you

667
01:00:52,205 --> 01:00:57,485
mentioned, like, in the former communist countries, we took this to extreme. But at the same time,

668
01:00:57,485 --> 01:01:04,605
like pretty much all the Western civilization is going slower, but same direction as well,

669
01:01:04,605 --> 01:01:10,745
direction of more central planning and less freedom. And it's very sad to see.

670
01:01:10,745 --> 01:01:22,865
I think we, on the contrary, we have some interesting tools and technologies that are coming over that might help us to be freer from the government.

671
01:01:23,565 --> 01:01:24,825
Yeah, we have to break free.

672
01:01:25,125 --> 01:01:27,885
That's the only way.

673
01:01:28,365 --> 01:01:31,745
Defunding them is the only thing that works, unfortunately.

674
01:01:31,745 --> 01:01:36,105
You can't just vote harder and hope that that will work

675
01:01:36,105 --> 01:01:41,065
because that's not the power dynamics at play here.

676
01:01:41,165 --> 01:01:44,865
Anyway, if people want to find out more about Firefish,

677
01:01:45,005 --> 01:01:46,865
firefish.io, right?

678
01:01:47,505 --> 01:01:50,005
It's the site.

679
01:01:50,265 --> 01:01:52,265
It's the website, firefish.io,

680
01:01:52,485 --> 01:01:58,145
or you can check our Twitter or X account firefish underscore IO.

681
01:01:58,145 --> 01:02:01,985
Yeah, and where can people find out more about you?

682
01:02:02,145 --> 01:02:06,705
And is there anywhere else on the internet that you want to direct our listeners to?

683
01:02:08,225 --> 01:02:12,425
Well, I'm not active so much on my socials,

684
01:02:12,585 --> 01:02:16,125
so I would strongly recommend to follow Firefish.io

685
01:02:16,125 --> 01:02:19,845
with much more content than I produce personally.

686
01:02:21,465 --> 01:02:24,365
All right, so go check that out.

687
01:02:24,365 --> 01:02:28,965
And I do believe I have a discount code of some kind.

688
01:02:29,185 --> 01:02:31,785
So try code infinity wherever you go on the internet.

689
01:02:32,085 --> 01:02:33,905
It will probably work.

690
01:02:36,365 --> 01:02:43,385
Is there anything else you want to talk about before we close this out?

691
01:02:43,525 --> 01:02:46,405
Is there anything we've skipped over here or missed?

692
01:02:47,625 --> 01:02:52,305
Well, we pretty much touched the areas that I deeply care about.

693
01:02:52,305 --> 01:02:54,105
Bitcoin energy

694
01:02:54,105 --> 01:02:55,185
central planning

695
01:02:55,185 --> 01:02:56,565
yeah there will be

696
01:02:56,565 --> 01:02:58,205
some more

697
01:02:58,205 --> 01:02:59,245
but let's keep it

698
01:02:59,245 --> 01:03:00,345
for another interview

699
01:03:00,345 --> 01:03:03,325
or if you will invite me

700
01:03:03,325 --> 01:03:04,125
in the future

701
01:03:04,125 --> 01:03:05,305
maybe you can

702
01:03:05,305 --> 01:03:07,785
place the link

703
01:03:07,785 --> 01:03:08,885
with your code

704
01:03:08,885 --> 01:03:09,825
to the show notes

705
01:03:09,825 --> 01:03:10,825
this is also where

706
01:03:10,825 --> 01:03:11,925
like your listeners

707
01:03:11,925 --> 01:03:12,625
can find a

708
01:03:12,625 --> 01:03:13,785
find a

709
01:03:13,785 --> 01:03:14,945
convenient way

710
01:03:14,945 --> 01:03:16,285
how to reach us

711
01:03:16,285 --> 01:03:17,525
absolutely

712
01:03:17,525 --> 01:03:19,465
and thank you very much

713
01:03:19,465 --> 01:03:20,205
for the conversation

714
01:03:20,205 --> 01:03:21,265
and looking forward

715
01:03:21,265 --> 01:03:23,905
to more interesting conversations in the future.

716
01:03:24,105 --> 01:03:25,365
And thank you for the good questions

717
01:03:25,365 --> 01:03:27,505
and letting me rant too on my own pod.

718
01:03:27,705 --> 01:03:28,285
I like that.

719
01:03:28,465 --> 01:03:29,625
Thanks for having me.

720
01:03:30,525 --> 01:03:31,005
Bye.

721
01:03:32,365 --> 01:03:34,305
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

722
01:03:35,005 --> 01:03:35,645
Brush your teeth.

723
01:03:35,885 --> 01:03:36,585
Till next time.

724
01:03:36,805 --> 01:03:37,005
Bye.

725
01:03:51,265 --> 01:04:21,245
Thank you.